Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[serrapaladin]

Sup guys.

Found any scum yet, thor?

UNVOTE:

I'll have a read of stuff

[serrapaladin]

I thought Hark's Creature-Thor distancing theory was bonkers at first, but it does seem like the kind of thing a SE and IC team would pre-plan.

Question to the audience: is it obvious that scum can talk in their qt pregame if you've never been scum?

[serrapaladin]

Fair enough, loop. Is that your only completed game?

@Thor: What was with that epic wall-exchange with Creature? Did your read on him progress throughout? I would have probably just told him to go away and focus on useful stuff...

About halfway through.

[serrapaladin]

Town!Thor, I'd like to see you scum hunt, rather than just post walls of logic nitpicking. You look like you've dived deep into a pool of confirmation bias.

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

I like you - please be town.

[serrapaladin]

@Creature: could you take me through your read progression on my slot?

[serrapaladin]

@Creature: You say that, but when I look at 1706, the first thing I see is that lucca got 3 prods. Have you actually read the game yourself?

[serrapaladin]

Let's see:

Your slot disappeared.

Good, like half of the playerlist already disappeared once.

But Loopdan came with a good meta point on lucca261.

Which makes me wonder, shouldn't lucca261 be making analysis and contributing rather than flaking out?

And that made me confident your slot is scum.

And before that?

[serrapaladin]

Do you have the impression I'm trying to defend Lucca?

I could give an approximate reads list now, but would rather talk about stuff for a bit for now.

@Creature: so you didn't feel like actually looking at the game? Or understanding what meta loop actually meant?

[serrapaladin]

And then Loopdan came with meta.

If the lucca/serra slot is scum, this will become my signature.

If the slot is town, I'm acting like this post never happened.

Keep trying and you'll get your signature...

[serrapaladin]

Are you more sure on your meta point about me or thor?

[serrapaladin]

yes

[serrapaladin]

Nope, don't care.

I wanna talk to thor first.

And get some sleep.

[serrapaladin]

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Serrapaladin
Welcome to our mess.
Please give reads.
(It's the middle of the night, will reply to questions to me tomorrow)

Are you a Mr. Ree alt?

So it's ridiculous to think that Thor would choose to lurk until prodded at game start as IC in a Newbie. I feel like Creature should know this. Or have figured it out by browsing some of Thor's games. Or change his mind when Thor directly pointed out how ridiculous it is. Or when the mod literally confirmed there were no links to the thread.

And then Loopdan came with meta.

If the lucca/serra slot is scum, this will become my signature.

If the slot is town, I'm acting like this post never happened.

This is probably town.

I also don't want to lynch thor today.

[serrapaladin]

Got sidetracked on the Creature thing:

He's either stubborn/bad or scum. His defaulting to attacking the inactive slots when pressure on thor wasn't sticking has me mildly leaning towards the latter. Also his attitude towards Loop's meta on lucca feels opportunistic.

[serrapaladin]

At this point I am not scum reading Thor for "lurking".

Good. Care to share?

[serrapaladin]

Do you have the impression I'm trying to defend Lucca?

Also this was an actual question directed at 2 or 3 of you.

[serrapaladin]

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

What is the purpose of leaving this here? It's a game where Thor is scum.

Mostly just because it's my most recent game with Thor. I'm not really getting the same vibe from thor here, though.

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

You look to be pushing the game forward there rather than being defensive.

Not sure on Thor.

Are you implying I'm being defensive here?

[serrapaladin]

Maybe later, Loop.

I want to figure out who to lynch first. I'm leaning towards MissTerry. Thoughts?

[serrapaladin]

@Creature: could you take me through your read progression on my slot?

"Can I understand why I am being scum read?"

Let's see:

Your slot disappeared.

Good, like half of the playerlist already disappeared once.

But Loopdan came with a good meta point on lucca261.

Which makes me wonder, shouldn't lucca261 be making analysis and contributing rather than flaking out?

And that made me confident your slot is scum.

And before that?

"I want to know more about what you think about my slot"

Are you more sure on your meta point about me or thor?

"How confident are you on me or Thor?"

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

"Check my meta"

There's a difference between asking why you're currently scumreading my slot and asking about your progression throughout the game. I've posted my conclusion about the quality of your thought-process earlier. I'm still trying to make up my mind where on the bad/scummy line you fall.

[serrapaladin]

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

What is the purpose of leaving this here? It's a game where Thor is scum.

Mostly just because it's my most recent game with Thor. I'm not really getting the same vibe from thor here, though.

Tell me more.

If you have the time, compare thor/my interaction around day 3 with how he's interacting with you here.

[serrapaladin]

Besides scumreading Missy, do you have other reads Paladin?

Yes.

[serrapaladin]

Pretty sure you can infer my position on about half the game if you give it a try. Those that I haven't mentioned yet are less interesting to me atm.

[serrapaladin]

I get that, and people have different opinions on how complete to be about given information. Mine is that if everyone gives a full ranking in the early game, scum know exactly whom to kill, and generally how to position themselves relative to others. I don't think PoE on townreads works well early in the game.

[serrapaladin]

What you are saying makes sense. But I am paranoid about something else - how would the two scumpartners read each other early on? Townreading and scumreading themselves both carry risks, while nullreading each other - or even better - not reading each other at all is really safe. It doesn't let us make any associations when one of them flips. I hope that you are understanding my reasoning for suspecting Shadow because of that. And for the exact same reason, I am also suspecting you.

The associations thing is only relevant when you get flips though. If I'm about to get hammered, I'll certainly give full reads on everyone, and I'll also definitely comment on the viable wagons, as I have. And if I make a habit out of ignoring my scummates, that's going to be as obvious as if I regularly buddy or bus them. You guys do, after all, have the advantage of being able to look at dozens of my completed games as all factions.

Anywho.

@ Serrapaladin, if you find MT scummy, why aren't you voting them?
It's not long before deadline and you NEED TO VOTE MT NOW.

I'm aware of the deadline, but haven't made up my mind about whether MT or Creature need to pushed. Why do you think Creature is town?

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

@Loop: when many points against MT rely on reactions to stuff, an ISO isn't necessarily that useful. You seem to like the lack of reactions to Hark's reaction test, and shadow's L-1 vote (for she was notably there, whereas others weren't). I would suggest that as newb-scum, a genuine reaction is harder to come by, which leads to blanks. I don't like 460 at all - it reads to me as "haha yeah I ignored that and it went away". Note that this was after Hark had admitted he didn't actually have anything. 430 was her only genuine reaction to it, and I'm not convinced.

[serrapaladin]

So Creature is annoying, but I think this needs to happen

VOTE: MissTerry

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

Blank is the second most scummy right now. Since most of his posts are about Thor being inactive I am waiting to see how he reacts now.

This is one of a few cases of MT's trajectory being wonky, as this was the last reference of Blank before this:

Readlist:
Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

If she flips scum, this is actually looking like decent scum-buddy potential, as Blank made some fairly large posts, including his case against thor in the meantime, which she basically ignored.

[serrapaladin]

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

Thought I already answered. About the 48 hours thing, it's not just 48 hours now.

What?

[serrapaladin]

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

Thought I already answered. About the 48 hours thing, it's not just 48 hours now.

Tick tick goes the clock,
Are we going to lynch someone or not?
Or are we all going to stay on our one/two vote wagons and glare at each other?
Whoever scum is has done a very good job at sowing confusion seeds right from the start, I will say that.

Ugh.

[serrapaladin]

I'll do it tomorrow as I'm feeling a bit tired.

[serrapaladin]

696 was a joke.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

As a genuine question can you explain this more? I don't understand what you mean.

If you opened the thread, you presumably had enough time to at least skim recent posts. If you have enough time to post you're too tired to post, you probably have enough time to give an instant reaction to something. If you're town, the worst thing that can happen by being spontaneous or posting when tired is things will look a bit jumbled. If you're scum, you might give yourself away.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me.

Frequent needing to sleep remarks before I leave are because I catch up and reply at night, late when I'm lying in bed so when I leave, it's because I'm turning over and actually sleeping

Those posts frequently came a fair amount of time after other posts though.

Also, it's weird how unequally MissTerry and PenguinPower are being treated.

You realise there are specific points being made againt MT, right? Your reasoning reads as: "these are two players that look like lynchbait to me so why do people not treat them the same", which is too simplistic.

[serrapaladin]

snip

Quite a lot happened in between those two posts. Thor and Creature had their wall battle and shadow came in. As you mentioned, Blank also made some very large posts and moved on from just tunneling Thor.
I think that span of time is sufficient for my reads to change, even if I don't spell out every step of it in posts.

But you specifically made a post about your new reads, and the one on Blank had obviously changed, so isn't it obvious that you should include some reasoning about that change?

[serrapaladin]

In post 184, MissTerry wrote:
Blank is the second most scummy right now. Since most of his posts are about Thor being inactive I am waiting to see how he reacts now.

This is one of a few cases of MT's trajectory being wonky, as this was the last reference of Blank before this:

In post 405, MissTerry wrote:
Readlist:
Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan


If she flips scum, this is actually looking like decent scum-buddy potential, as Blank made some fairly large posts, including his case against thor in the meantime, which she basically ignored.

Quite a lot happened in between those two posts. Thor and Creature had their wall battle and shadow came in. As you mentioned, Blank also made some very large posts and moved on from just tunneling Thor.
I think that span of time is sufficient for my reads to change, even if I don't spell out every step of it in posts.

And I just don't see anything scummy about Peng. Read progression reads consistent and changes in read are justified. I don't even agree with the newb-town/lynchbait assessment. If anything I'm worried about him having more experience than we give him credit for - but then, scum with unknown additional experience don't tend to volunteer that like Peng did.

[serrapaladin]

Serrapaladin =/= MissTerry. Just because town!Paladin always gives his thoughts, even when he isn't in the best condition, doesn't mean that town!MissTerry does the same.

I did say this is personal. but when making a post about how you're not going to make a post - the additional energy required to throw in a spontaneous remark is rather little. I feel like it falls into a more general trend of scum being more careful, which is certainly true among new players.

You do not get to do this. Creature, do NOT answer their until Serrapaladin gives reads. If you don't give reads/explain reads, you shouldn't get to ask others for elaborations on their reads. ESPECIALLY when you made it clear that you think that elaborating on reads makes it easier for scum to pick who to kill.

I feel like I'm pretty close to having given reads on everyone, I'm just not going to format it the way you want.

[serrapaladin]

Shadow and Paladin are both playing in the exact same way. They both refuse to give their reads, they claim that it's pro-town, and tunnel on MissTerry. I am willing to bet it's Shadow/Paladin scumbros.

Yup, our ISOs really do look very similar.

[serrapaladin]

Then your point about not giving reads is pointless and asking for clarification on them is valid.

Of course asking for clarification on specific reads is valid. I'm just not going to replace in and make a town to scum list. If you'd like to death-tunnel me for that, good luck to you and this town.

[serrapaladin]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

[serrapaladin]

Because I don't want to at all points have a recent public opinion about everyone. Why is this so difficult? Take, say, Hark, who's generally town-read. If I come in and give a bunch of reasons for why he is obv-town, who benefits from that?

Fuck.

[serrapaladin]

No, it really doesn't. I'm sorry you feel that way.

[serrapaladin]

I should really leave this be, but things like this annoy me. Replacing in is annoying, because reading 500+ posts and understanding the narrative behind them takes time. Still, people that flake can ruin games if they're not replaced, so on this site enough people do it for things to work. For you guys to expect replacements to come in and immediately form full reads on what went before is just incredibly entitled. Putting a fucking timer on when to deliver these by is just insulting and made me want to replace right back out. Some people like to craft full catch-up posts with detailed reads on everyone, some only skim the game, others don't even do that. Reads come from interactions, and the way to get good reads is to start interacting with people. For you guys to tell others to stop responding to me is just insane. Not only is it insulting, it's also really, really stupid for the progress of the game.

I could certainly have clobbered together a half-arsed reads list from my catch-up, but it wouldn't have been one I'd be happy with, and there are many reasons for why I would want to partially reveal them over time. If I tell someone I think they're leaning scum before I then talk to them about something, they will react differently from doing the same out-of-the-blue. Everyone agreeing how town someone is will get that person night-killed. Giving an exact indications of rankings tells scum whom they need to convince to not get lynched.

[serrapaladin]

You guys insult shadow for his manner, but I'd genuinely rather him than you.

[serrapaladin]

If I appear standoffish, if I seem like I'm being a major asshat, it's not my intent. But you can't deny that its hypocritical to dodge questions about your reads and then ask someone to clarify their reads. Just give me something to work with.

Show me a specific question I've dodged and I'll answer it. "Give us all of your reads" doesn't count. The only response I delayed was regarding Loop's question about my meta with thor, where I think there's more benefit in someone else looking at the aspect I mean without me conf-biasing it.

Besides the points shadow has made about MT, here's what I've said about MT:

Maybe later, Loop.

I want to figure out who to lynch first. I'm leaning towards MissTerry. Thoughts?

@ Serrapaladin, if you find MT scummy, why aren't you voting them?
It's not long before deadline and you NEED TO VOTE MT NOW.

I'm aware of the deadline, but haven't made up my mind about whether MT or Creature need to pushed. Why do you think Creature is town?

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

@Loop: when many points against MT rely on reactions to stuff, an ISO isn't necessarily that useful. You seem to like the lack of reactions to Hark's reaction test, and shadow's L-1 vote (for she was notably there, whereas others weren't). I would suggest that as newb-scum, a genuine reaction is harder to come by, which leads to blanks. I don't like 460 at all - it reads to me as "haha yeah I ignored that and it went away". Note that this was after Hark had admitted he didn't actually have anything. 430 was her only genuine reaction to it, and I'm not convinced.

So Creature is annoying, but I think this needs to happen

VOTE: MissTerry

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

Blank is the second most scummy right now. Since most of his posts are about Thor being inactive I am waiting to see how he reacts now.

This is one of a few cases of MT's trajectory being wonky, as this was the last reference of Blank before this:

Readlist:
Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

If she flips scum, this is actually looking like decent scum-buddy potential, as Blank made some fairly large posts, including his case against thor in the meantime, which she basically ignored.

696 was a joke.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

As a genuine question can you explain this more? I don't understand what you mean.

If you opened the thread, you presumably had enough time to at least skim recent posts. If you have enough time to post you're too tired to post, you probably have enough time to give an instant reaction to something. If you're town, the worst thing that can happen by being spontaneous or posting when tired is things will look a bit jumbled. If you're scum, you might give yourself away.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me.

Frequent needing to sleep remarks before I leave are because I catch up and reply at night, late when I'm lying in bed so when I leave, it's because I'm turning over and actually sleeping

Those posts frequently came a fair amount of time after other posts though.

Also, it's weird how unequally MissTerry and PenguinPower are being treated.

You realise there are specific points being made againt MT, right? Your reasoning reads as: "these are two players that look like lynchbait to me so why do people not treat them the same", which is too simplistic.

[serrapaladin]

I also increasingly think Creature is being deliberately stupid about this because he doesn't want to admit that he didn't bother actually making sense of lucca's meta before sheeping it:

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

Thought I already answered. About the 48 hours thing, it's not just 48 hours now.

What?

Thor665 says lucca261 being different could be because it's just 48 hours from the day, but lucca should've done something by now.

If MT doesn't have popular support, which it doesn't seem to, that's where I'd want to look next.

[serrapaladin]

Also, Blank, for the record, I did make explicit my desire for interacting with people before giving a reads list, which was almost immediately met with a handful of votes, dimwit creature trying to put a deadline on me, and several people telling others not to interact with me.

I could give an approximate reads list now, but would rather talk about stuff for a bit for now.

Summary of my thoughts on Creature:

Got sidetracked on the Creature thing:

He's either stubborn/bad or scum. His defaulting to attacking the inactive slots when pressure on thor wasn't sticking has me mildly leaning towards the latter. Also his attitude towards Loop's meta on lucca feels opportunistic.

@shadow: thoughts on lynching creature?

[serrapaladin]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

Yes, I do. You are adressing more things than Tunnel_step, but there is definitely a similarity in you two.

Sorry that you are being given a hard time, don't take it personally. But we don't have an obvscum to lynch for today and we are running out of time.

That similarity being we want to lynch MT? I'm genuinely trying to understand your thought process here.

I'm actually not taking things personally, I just think the attitude in this game is pretty toxic.

[serrapaladin]

I'm not confident in my read on thor. His tone in attacking Loop feels different from when he tried to mislynch me as scum. His play is a bit more balanced here than in Zar's game. That being said, I won't pretend that I'm particularly good at reading him. If he's town, he's potentially a serious asset, so I wouldn't be happy with lynching him.

Penguin has been somewhat low-key, but consistent. It's the type of play that's fairly easy for moderately experienced scum to imitate, but I'm leaning town.

Would probably go for Peng over thor, but would rather keep both alive.

[serrapaladin]

Pretty sure Blank is still voting me.

[serrapaladin]

because both of them(Penguin and Blank) really don't care who gets lynched between me or MT, if it comes to that, I've been attacking MT for a while now, but Penguin in spite of having a town read on MT hasn't attacked me for that.

You can have a townread on someone and still not find their attackers scummy, but you may have a point regarding to what degree they are seeking compromise.

[serrapaladin]

Could vote for Blank, actually.

Basically all of his posts since replacing in have been about me, and he's voting me, but it kind of sounds like he just wants me to play a certain way, not necessarily lynch me for being scummy. He's obviously aware of the looming deadline, but has probably put in the least effort in trying to compromise on a lynch.

[serrapaladin]

Would recommend this:

VOTE: Blank

The dissonance between 772 and the previous posts is real.

[serrapaladin]

Show me a specific question I've dodged and I'll answer it. "Give us all of your reads" doesn't count. The only response I delayed was regarding Loop's question about my meta with thor, where I think there's more benefit in someone else looking at the aspect I mean without me conf-biasing it.

Is this the "response" you didn't like?

[serrapaladin]

Actually think Creature might be town here.

That's not really a good attitude, Peng. You should really have more preferences than Loop or anyone to avoid a no-lynch.

[serrapaladin]

Lynch-o-meter

PenguinPower
MissTerry
serrapaladin
Harkonnen97
Loopdan: BlankFace, PenguinPower, serrapaladin, Shadow_step, Thor665
Creature: BlankFace, Shadow_step, Thor665
BlankFace
Shadow_step
Thor665

This is really not the way to do this. We want to draw up wagons and see how people maneuver, not find the lynch by a list of "would lynch". This makes it too easy for scum to find the right things to say.

[serrapaladin]

Actually think Creature might be town here.

That's not really a good attitude, Peng. You should really have more preferences than Loop or anyone to avoid a no-lynch.

I do have preferences other than LoopDan. I've stated them above.

Then start pushing one of them.

[serrapaladin]

Oddly, I don't feel massively inclined to defend myself. In part, because there's not really much to defend myself from, and because this whole thing is a bit of a lost cause.

I will point out that MT is still voting me from when I replaced in.

Hark/Creature are probably both bad rather than scum. Shadow is probtown, too.

Peng could well be scum if he's more experienced than he seems. His play is pretty safe, and if he's played a decent number of games, faking trajectories in this way is quite easy.

I've skimmed Loop's other Newbie, and there's more towny uncertainty there. People do still adapt their style across the first few games, but this could actually be scum.

Given his recent posts about me, I would actually lean towards Blank over MT at this point. He's ignored my questions, then went from engaging with me to scumreading me when I voted him, claiming he didn't like my response. MT might just be lynchbait after all.

Thor is an unknown. Saying he doesn't like the wagon on me without suggesting a valid alternatives bothers me a bit, as he'll get towncred when I flip, but as it's going, doesn't do anything to prevent it. It's probably best to sort him by other means, like associations after a scum flip.

[serrapaladin]

Penguin is townposting, yay.

Great timing Creature.

Really don't think we should lynch thor.

[serrapaladin]

Really though, we should wait for a claim.

[serrapaladin]

Hark/Creature are probably both bad rather than scum. Shadow is probtown, too.

Why am I bad?

You've been posting a fair amount, but your votes have been awful.

[serrapaladin]

@Blank: do you think a lack of nuance regarding your meta would actually make Creature scum? How many games have you played as scum?

@Hark: you don't need to see my flip to acknowledge that for much of the game you were putting votes on people you explicitly wanted to "pressure" rather than your biggest scumread. When it's obvious that votes are pressure votes, they don't really work. Your only serious vote on a scumread seems to have been shadow (and maybe me?), both of which seem to me to be misreads based on play style.

[serrapaladin]

Yuck

[serrapaladin]

Please, don't tell me you want to keep Thor alive because he might be an "asset"

I'm not confident in my read on thor. His tone in attacking Loop feels different from when he tried to mislynch me as scum. His play is a bit more balanced here than in Zar's game. That being said, I won't pretend that I'm particularly good at reading him. If he's town, he's potentially a serious asset, so I wouldn't be happy with lynching him.

<<snip!>>

Doesn't this cut both ways? Yes, he is very experienced and should be an asset if he is town. But isn't he then also much more dangerous as scum?

I don't think it makes sense to give him a pass on scummy behavior just because there is a higher probability at game-start that he is town. And I know that's not what you are arguing, so I'm not trying to set up a straw-man. I'm just thinking out loud here.

And can you really say that town!Thor he has been an asset to

this

game? He pushed me hard, which did help other players sort my slot. Then he did... what exactly?

<<snip!>>
Thor is an unknown. Saying he doesn't like the wagon on me without suggesting a valid alternatives bothers me a bit, as he'll get towncred when I flip, but as it's going, doesn't do anything to prevent it. It's probably best to sort him by other means, like associations after a scum flip.

Whose flip will help us sort Thor? A flipped scum!Loopdan basically confirms town!Thor, but that won't happen. A flipped town!Loopdan doesn't confirm Thor as scum, does it? What other flips might be helpful to sorting Thor?

I don't really want to explain this any more. Thor isn't someone I scumread, and because of who he is, this makes me more opposed to lynching him than others.

[serrapaladin]

I would probably hammer anyone who hasn't claimed a PR D1 to avoid a no-lynch.

Flipped newb!scum generally makes it easier to identify scumbuddies. If town!thor believes you're scum, then parking his vote on you and making that case is surely pro-town play? I would like him to be more active around deadline, but VLAs are legit.

I think we should just go with Blank.

[serrapaladin]

Then you'll probably need to convince shadow of that.

?

[serrapaladin]

Thor/Blank is a possibility to consider, but the association tell only really works with a Blank scum flip.

[serrapaladin]

If Blank is scum, not jumping on the wagon makes most sense with scum!thor. On the other hand, town!Blank may have other reasons for not immediately jumping the wagon, such as thinking thor is not necessarily scum, which scum!Blank isn't burdened by. Unfortunately there's the alternate interpretation of scum!Blank not wanting to seem scummy by immediately jumping on the next counter-wagon, which can't really be discerned any more at this point. Still, if Blank flips scum, I would be more happy to consider a thor lynch tomorrow.

[serrapaladin]

That's the problem basically.

Unfortunately, OMGUS alone is not that alignment indicative, and to town!creature and town!loop, thor's cases against them doesn't really count as contribution, because it's wrong.

[serrapaladin]

I don't see how you could be misunderstanding my simple statement. I said that town!Blank and scum!Blank would vote Thor, unless you are both scum, then scum!Blank stalls. Which is now what you are doing.

I don't understand why, if you are town, you wouldn't vote Thor right now, even if he is your top town read. If you are town, you are 100% confirmed by your role pm. No other town-read Day 1 is confirmed. Why would you allow conftown (you) to be lynched over another player?

And you are trying to sell my statement as a setup to lynch you later no matter what you do now. I already said I am OK with either of these wagons. So yeah, whoever we lynch today, I'm looking at the other tomorrow.

Blank voting Thor in this situation is NAI. Blank not voting Thor in this situation is either showing us the scum team, or stubbornness.

I'm sorry to say this view is quite simplistic. Overly survivalist behaviour is frequently viewed as a scum-tell, because the psychology of "everyone but me" interferes with having actual reads. Immediately jumping on a counter wagon you don't believe in can frequently lead to momentum swinging back the other way. At this point, the well is poisoned and Blank's stubbornness is NAI.

[serrapaladin]

Penguin is playing very passively. He barely and half-heartedly pushes for his scumreads. Passive playstyle is something valid and I can see a town doing it. However, Penguin is a newbie. Fabricating scumreads is

much

harder than fabricating town reads, since you already know who is town and who is scum. So sitting back and letting others push the wagons is something I can easily see a new scum player do.

Pengo, you're fucking scum mate.

p-edit: someone put Thor at L-1 and force him to claim or move to Penguin then. Thor isn't pressured to claim when he's at L-2.

Why do you want thor to claim when we have Blank sitting at L-1 (I think), and we've already had him claim?

[serrapaladin]

If we're going to push another wagon, we won't get much support, and it's not a good idea as we're forcing another player to claim.

I made this point before. Blank has already claimed VT. We should not be forcing other claims at this point unless there is a clear target that is agreed upon.

Now Thor says he won't be back until after deadline, which means no claim from him. So do we lynch Thor with no claim or lynch Blank who already claimed VT? I'm leaning Blank based on that, but maybe that's Thor's strategy?

This is more townposting btw.

Fwiw, I don't question his VLA.

[serrapaladin]

@Hark: so you currently think Peng, Thor, shadow, and me are scum. Am I missing anyone?

[serrapaladin]

This is more townposting btw.

btw weren't you all against announcing your town reads?

Only unnecessarily so.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: Blank

Go away.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: Blank

Go away.

[serrapaladin]

This is more townposting btw.

btw weren't you all against announcing your town reads?

Only unnecessarily so.

Not what you said before. You were against posting tow reads because you didn't want to help direct the night kill. Now Loop is posting things that agree with you and you buddy up to him.

What are you talking about? I disagree with Loop's assertion thor's VLA might be strategic in literally the same post. There's also been latent anti-penguin sentiment that could easily swing into a flash wagon, so my townread there is more relevant.

[serrapaladin]

<3 Hark

so you think Blank didn't know I was voting for him? I was more interested in your and Loop's reaction tbh

[serrapaladin]

I will however say that Blank's reply came quickly enough to make me question things.

UNVOTE:

for now, but I don't think he's cleared.

[serrapaladin]

<3 Hark

so you think Blank didn't know I was voting for him? I was more interested in your and Loop's reaction tbh

I want off this crazy ride.

Off-topic:
Have I actually offended you this game? Because I'm getting that vibe? I'll save that talk for post game if I need to.

On-Topic:
I lost track of your vote when the Thor wagon started.

I saw a vote and thought I was free from being bitchy about this stupid wagon. Since I'm still alive, let me ask you then:

What is your case against me? You were the second person to join the wagon. Others have made it a point to seem reluctant about the wagon but you're pretty gung-ho about it.

You have not offended me, no. I genuinely thought you were scum because of your reaction to my AtE, where your first reaction talked to me like I was a frustrated townie, whereas when I mentioned I could vote for you, you switched to calling me scum that's trying to AtE his way out of things.

For what it's worth, my "AtE" was a genuine expression of my feelings about the attitud in this game to force a play style on others, and expect content on a deadline, which I think is harmful. I don't have any negative feelings towards individual, and it hasn't affected my enjoyment of the game beyond spending time on explaining myself that could have been spent more fruitfully.

---

So how would people feel about an MT flashwagon?

[serrapaladin]

We're not going to get more out of thor, it would seem...

I would compromise on Peng, but think MT is a good shout here. I don't think loop's response to the fakehammer was too bad.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: MT

I'll probs be on for another 8-ish hours, but deadline is the middle of the night for me.

[serrapaladin]

I don't think Blank is conf-town, but would rather lynch someone else today.

MT, anyone?

[serrapaladin]

Well let's run him up and get a claim

[serrapaladin]

I'm aware the timing isn't great, but it's worth trying given people have been quite active.

[serrapaladin]

Please try to look at MT in context, at least with shadow and maybe me in ISO

[serrapaladin]

Chirp.

So no MT then? What do you think about what shadow and I have said.

Would you want Peng or blank?

[serrapaladin]

If we MUST start another wagon, I'd go with Penguin. I don't like his more recent posts.
Why would he begin to get suspicious of Hark now, with little time left and him being the most town read player in the game. I think his dislike of Hark is very defensive, leaping on Hark because Hark is scumreading him. Some of Penguin's attacks on Hark feel nitpicky too, calling out Hark (post 838) because it's the "strongest language you've used all game" is uh, what?

I actually quite like his more recent posts. Why would town!peng not get suspicious of hark if he thinks hark has been acting suspicious. Start and end of days are generally the most dynamic times, and is when people respond to themselves and others being under genuine pressure, which evokes useful reactions. I quite liked the reference that he might be misreading loopdan, which is in no way relevant to what's currently going on, so scum in self-preservation mode would likely not think to say that.

[serrapaladin]

Whoever said MissTerry was female?

Yeah, it's clearly a pun, which could mean either.

[serrapaladin]

@MT: That list correlates very little with your play for most of this day - it reads as a list of people you might be able to get lynched instead of you.

[serrapaladin]

I think MT's play has been pretty boring tbh.

[serrapaladin]

We're not no lynching.

Let's get a roll call, do we have the numbers for a new wagon?

[serrapaladin]

CC doesn't need to come today.

VOTE: Blank

[serrapaladin]

Tbh, we could also still lynch thor if there's no one around to hammer.

I think Blank is more likely town than him at this point.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, I don't think I trust enough people to be around for the thor-wagon. I think you should probably just hammer unless anyone still has any comments. I would also like to go to bed soon.

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE:

I don't like any of this...

How about like shadow?

[serrapaladin]

And you aren't with thor?

[serrapaladin]

but I think he's town

[serrapaladin]

Nah

VOTE: Blank

[serrapaladin]

Gogogo flip.

[serrapaladin]

That was expressing dissatisfaction about both the two options. Shadow needs looking at tomorrow if we don't get a cc.

Wanna spoil us, Blank?

[serrapaladin]

Third largest D1, huh? Not bad.

I want sleep but I also want flip.

[serrapaladin]

Jesus christ what are you doing.

[serrapaladin]

Oh mod, letting me down...

I agree tomorrow might need to be an MT quicklynch :/

[serrapaladin]

Sweet dreams, all.

[serrapaladin]

Scum are in {peng, thor, shadow}.

Loops misdirection was a bit obvious, but town town town.

Shadow's "well that sucks" is pretty bad.

There's no way MT wasn't blocked last night.

[serrapaladin]

Hmm, I think MT's is different since she's a PR.

In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated. Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.

@thor: has loop's recent posting made any difference to your read?

[serrapaladin]

If there's another doctor out there, they really need to claim now. As town, counter claiming when about to be hammered or in lylo is bad play. Tomorrow could be lylo, so today is the day to claim. There's of course the chance MT lucked out by fake-claiming doc in cop-VT, but by purely probabilistic reasoning I am very unlikely to vote for MT. I'm basically never certain enough in my reads to vote against that serious odds. Also mass-claiming is a waste of time, because we should just treat a doc CC later in the game as a quicklynch.

I'm feeling that there was one scum on the wagon and one scum off the wagon...though I guess there could be two off. Both shadow and MT helped drive the Blank wagon, but shadow never got on and MT hopped off right before the end. Contrary to that, shadow really tunneled MT, but that could just be bussing...feeling that's less likely. Hark stayed away from the Blank wagon, but actively defended MT.

Right now, I'd like to focus on the one off the wagon as there is a smaller pool (not by much) to draw from. I really do not like the way Hark acted at the end of day yesterday, but gut tells me right now that's just overzealous town. Between shadow and MT, I really get a bad vibe from MT...something just doesn't feel right about her posts at end of day (I'll just vote anyone!), the way she claimed, or her posts starting Day 2.

I don't like this at all. Analysing numbers on and off the wagon is context dependent, which with Blank involved a PR claim and deadline pressure. Shadow hard-bussing MT, who happened to fakeclaim doc in the one setup where that works, for no obvious reason, is just super reaching. This reads to me like scum!peng worried that the narrative of both scum in {thor, peng, shadow} takes over, which would mean he loses, and trying to push an alternative narrative.

@thor: I think last last twilight, even though the outcome wasn't positive, felt pretty genuine from those heavily involved. I believed loop's contemplation about whether to lynch MT, and I felt her reaction to the fakehammer was genuine, as were the reaction to MT's claim, and the attempt to WIFOM the night kill.

[serrapaladin]

Just putting my IC hat on here for a moment, as I'm not attacking Shadow over this but it's a good teaching point.
Comments like this, and the debate Penguin is having with Shadow are *entirely* due to the fact we deadlined lynched yesterday.
Shadow is literally saying he threatened to vote a slot he didn't scumread - and that's a fairly legit stance to have (albeit one, I personally, would suggest you never do - I think a no lynch is better than voting a town read, personally, that's not what Shadow did, I'm just saying as regards the mindset).

The thing is, now people are having to assess votes that were made to "get a lynch, any lynch!" wherein people legit could, and did vote for players they didn't find scummy, or barely found scummy.

The good solution to avoid this mess is to try to get an agreed upon lynch with multiple days left in the phase.
Bit of advice for this phase.
Unless you thought the end of Day yesterday was awesome and pro town - then do the same thing

I feel like I should provide my opinion on these points for some balance: In relatively small games, at an odd number of players, a no-lynch is only preferable to lynching conf-town or a PR. At an even number of players, the game goes into mylo (mislynch and lose) at 2:4 or 1:3. At this point, unless there's conf-town, the optimal play is to no-lynch again to shrink the lynch pool. Thus, effectively, no-lynching is almost equivalent to handing scum another kill. This is not preferable to lynching someone whom you merely townread, as even the best players don't have that high read-percentages. In our case, with the doc outted, it's impossible for a heal to save someone to bring it back to odd numbers, so a no-lynch is purely negative compared to lynching someone with even a 5% chance of being scum.

I do agree that peng-shadow's argument is noise.

Regarding D1, I think the pacing was actually not too bad, it just so happened that both of the potential lynches fell through, which lead to the scramble. Though they rarely end up lynching the optimal target, I would suggest that when there is this sort of scramble and people are forced to think on their feet or tactically avoid, it's among the best times to gain information on people.

--

This is a post I started a while ago, but don't really remember where I was going, so I'll just submit this.

[serrapaladin]

First, following up on 1207:

@thor: I think last last twilight, even though the outcome wasn't positive, felt pretty genuine from those heavily involved. I believed loop's contemplation about whether to lynch MT, and I felt her reaction to the fakehammer was genuine, as were the reaction to MT's claim, and the attempt to WIFOM the night kill.

You're saying "genuine" a lot - did you get any actual reads from it?

Genuine = doesn't look like scum faked it; so yes, I somewhat firmed up my loop townread, as well as townreads on Creature and Hark.

[serrapaladin]

I don't like this at all. Analysing numbers on and off the wagon is context dependent, which with Blank involved a PR claim and deadline pressure. Shadow hard-bussing MT, who happened to fakeclaim doc in the one setup where that works, for no obvious reason, is just super reaching. This reads to me like scum!peng worried that the narrative of both scum in {thor, peng, shadow} takes over, which would mean he loses, and trying to push an alternative narrative.

The thing about probabilities is that even the low percentage ones occur. In this case, it was a 1/6 shot of getting the call right, and MT knew she had to claim a PR. Quite honestly it was higher than that for the immediate purpose, as MT was only trying to survive the lynch, and no one new the other PR would come up in the night kill. Extract Shadow from the whole thing as I said that was a less likely circumstance. Instead of looking at the probabilities, look at her behavior.

That aside, I do think that there was 1 scum on and 1 off, as I doubt scum would push that hard for what resulted in a town lynch on N1, and absent Thor, the other four on the wagon (three specifically...Creature, you, and me) were actively discussing the lynch with the hammer being dropped by conf!town. I admit, I pushed hardest for it...but I really didn't want to end in a no lynch and we were close to deadline.

Again, I'm not saying that MT is scum...I'm saying that's my best lead at the moment. I haven't dropped a vote because I know if we get this wrong we're in LyLo.

I don't think MT had to claim a PR there, really. In my experience, maybe half of scum claims are PRs. The conservative option is to just claim VT. I don't see a problem with 2 scum on the wagon, but I could see why that's a narrative you would want to push hard as scum with thor. If thor is scum, either loop or I could have decided to go for an easy deadline mislynch on Blank, knowing that it would draw little scrutiny because it was up against the deadline.

[serrapaladin]

Then, looking back at it, I don't think Creature was an obvious PR from his play - he did pretty well to pretend being worried about hitting another PR with the lynch. I think it's more likely that his activity and reads were the reason, given:

VOTE: BlankFace

Shadow_step
PenguinPower

Hopefully these are looked at.

Thor665
Shadow_step
PenguinPower

These should go.

[serrapaladin]

I don't think 1196 is as much of a smoking gun as it's made out to be, given that as his last post of the day, thor would be okay with a compromise if his top scumreads aren't working out, since the wagon was looking like the most viable with Peng and me also pushing it. 921 is off, given that you had then started pressuring Blank. I would be alright with lynching thor at this point, but peng's recent posts are making me feel pretty bad about her, too.

[serrapaladin]

But town-thor wouldn't have thought he could get either of his actual scum-reads lynched, and you guys had also broadly expressed a desire to lynch me, though I guess that dropped around that time. Also, as town, I personally value primary reads much more than unflipped association ones. I wouldn't not vote for someone just because my scumread was pushing them when I couldn't get my biggest scumread lynched, and I don't think it's ever sensible to base readings on the assumption that a scum-pair is correct. It's pretty likely you're right about thor at this point, mostly by PoE, but I don't think this is conclusive.

[serrapaladin]

Does that make him more scum than the people sheeping him though?

[serrapaladin]

@Shadow and @serrapaladin-- Please comment on 1196 and the wagon that has rapidly formed on Thor as a result of that post.

Why did you want me and shadow to comment on this before thor himself?

[serrapaladin]

Thor is town.

How

[serrapaladin]

@Shadow and @serrapaladin-- Please comment on 1196 and the wagon that has rapidly formed on Thor as a result of that post.

Why did you want me and shadow to comment on this before thor himself?

I didn't have a preference for it being before Thor. But you both posted after 1196 without commenting on it, and I want to know where you and shadow stand.

Nah, but asking us to comment on it comes with the implication you'll see it badly if we don't. It seems like you care more about our reaction than thor's, which in turn could suggest you care more about how convincing it is, rather than whether or not it's true.

[serrapaladin]

@Shadow and @serrapaladin-- Please comment on 1196 and the wagon that has rapidly formed on Thor as a result of that post.

Why did you want me and shadow to comment on this before thor himself?

I didn't have a preference for it being before Thor. But you both posted after 1196 without commenting on it, and I want to know where you and shadow stand.

Nah, but asking us to comment on it comes with the implication you'll see it badly if we don't. It seems like you care more about our reaction than thor's, which in turn could suggest you care more about how convincing it is, rather than whether or not it's true.

Yes, I would see it badly if you didn't comment on the Thor wagon. I think its something that town should be interacting on, regardless of their read on Thor.

And yes, I am more interested in you and shadow's reaction to the Thor wagon, than Thor's reaction to the Thor wagon. Thor has been sorted in my mind. My reads on you and shadow are not as firm.

As town, that reads entirely too confident about your read of thor. Short of a guilty, you should always want to hear thor defend himself rather than me do it. The most any one of us should have responded was "I would like to hear thor's response to this", and I'm a bit annoyed at myself for not having done that, but I guess I was sick of arguing play style...

[serrapaladin]

Am currently triple ISOing draynth, loop and shadow.

Doesn't look that bad.

Peng has been much more reachy today than yesterday, and I think it's because he feels the need to strongly shift the current narrative.

[serrapaladin]

@Peng: how does Shadow and loop cross-voting upon draynth's replace fit into your reading of their interaction?

[serrapaladin]

@Loop, you're vote on Lucca is a waste, can you switch to MT please. Thanks

[serrapaladin]

Peng has been much more reachy today than yesterday, and I think it's because he feels the need to strongly shift the current narrative.

I wouldn't be so blatant if I was trying to shift off of my scumbuddy. Lynch Thor, but then lynch Loop when he flips town.

p-edit

Paladin: Great way to enter the game in terms of starting a distancing feud. What interactions did they have after that sequence of events?

Loop: Stop dodging. What do you think? About his posts? About his votes? Not your feeling, not his avatar. Try to put your finger on why.

Why loop over shadow? Setting up thor -> loop is exactly what you would want as scum with shadow.

[serrapaladin]

My time zone is GMT +5.30, I am never online during that time as I'm sleeping. If I was I would never have blank get lynched.

This is bad - when Blank was actually lynched, it wasn't out of serious scumreads anymore, it was to avoid lynching a PR or no-lynch.

[serrapaladin]

17% prob. of you pulling it off and re-reading the thread gave me two new (well, one rehashed) focuses.

Along with the realisation that MT is not getting lynched ever, I presume.

I'm more confident in this than thor

VOTE: penguin

[serrapaladin]

Paladin jumping on PP like that is giving me cold feet

FUCK THIS PARANOIA

I'm going to look at thor-paladin interactions.

How did I jump on penguin? I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear that I prefer lynching her to thor basically all of this day. You literally say peng is obvscum for flailing like hell, which is the argument I've been pushing.

[serrapaladin]

Paladin jumping on PP like that is giving me cold feet

FUCK THIS PARANOIA

I'm going to look at thor-paladin interactions.

Paladin jumping on PP like that is giving me cold feet

FUCK THIS PARANOIA

I'm going to look at thor-paladin interactions.

This is one reason why Thor is a better lynch today than Penguin.

1/6 setups where your PR claim is valid = 16.66667%>17%. Basic math.

Not that it matters, but your math is wrong. If MT was scum claiming doc, it is reasonable to assume that scum has a RB. The likelihood of scum with a RB guessing the setup right with a doc claim is actually 50%.

Holy scumslip, Batman!

[serrapaladin]

Stupid quotes :/ only the last one of those.

[serrapaladin]

Yup

[serrapaladin]

Hint: MT is not both scum and town

[serrapaladin]

Are you saying its a slip because I say its reasonable to assume a RB? We know there was a cop and there is no doc counter-claim. I'd say that's reasonable to assume a RB.

But we're interested in the case in which MT is scum, in which case assuming RB isn't reasonable at all. In fact, if scum have a goon, there's a 1/4 chance for them that claiming doc will work well, whereas with an RB, it will at best draw a counter claim. What is worse, jailkeeper and 1-shot BP wouldn't have to CC at all. You confused a hypothetical in which MT is scum and there may or may not be a scum RB, with the (likely) true case that MT is town and a doc, in which case scum do have an RB.

On that point, if scum don't have an RB, thor would probably know to prime his scum-mate that doctor or 1-shot BP are the things to claim.

[serrapaladin]

Thank you for explaining that in a way that actually makes sense.

So no comment about you slipping the info that your scumteam have an RB?

[serrapaladin]

Because this was a part of a discussion about whether or not you might be scum. Scum!Loop knows they have an RB and you're town, making it harder for him to get into a state of mind where he is legitimatly working through that hypothetical, hence the mistake.

[serrapaladin]

This isn't a math lesson, so I don't want to go into this anymore, but for completeness, the prior on MT being scum is about 20%, while it is about 30% for everyone else.

[serrapaladin]

Ugh - still wrong.

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards. The slip call was more of a test again, and I do think there's a mismatch between loop's confidence and insight, but that's probably NAI at this point in this game.

[serrapaladin]

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards.

I don't like this sentence for two reasons.

First - this is a newbie game. It's to be expected for people to do and say silly things, both as town and scum

Second - You are basically saying: "I give up, I won't try to solve this game the best way I can". You aren't giving a good example there.

I believe that when playing normal Mafia games, there are two goals: have fun and aim for the win. In newbie games, there are three goals: have fun, play for the win, and be a good teacher.

Maybe what I said was a bit harsh, and I certainly won't stop applying logic to this game. Essentially, in a different context I would probably go after Loop for something like this, but the lack of a unified response among the rest of you leads me to believe that's probably NAI. Peng has been pretty on top of things, which fits into my assessment that he's better/more experience than I (and others) gave him credit for D1.

That's not how that works.

Why is this game turning into a series of logic puzzles?

Because the use of logic is better than making simple statements assertions of fact.

"Loopdan is scum."

"No, I'm not"

"Damn, you've convinced me! Loopdan is town!"

See I like this. Shame you're likely scum

[serrapaladin]

In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated.

Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.

Emphasis on bolded

I was rereading the thread and I think this is a good point against Thor.
If scum wasn't Thor, why wouldn't scum kill him in night one? He is the most experienced player and is therefore would be the most dangerous town player. Also, him being NKed doesn't expose any of the real scum team while getting rid of their most dangerous opponent.
If that was confusing, basically town!thor would most probably get lynched N1 because he is the most experienced and dangerous adversary, but he wasn't, because scum can't NK themselves, this makes him scummy.

Pretty sure Thor was scumleaned by a majority of players on D1. Why would scum waste a NK on someone they though they could get lynched easily on D2 (which it appears is being pushed right now)?

Penguin has a point about scum leaving town players alive who look scummy.

Also, the fact that players (like MT) recognize that town!Thor would be a prime NK target is reason enough for a doc to try and protect him. So scum might remove him from their target list. WIFOM

I think Thor is scum, but I don't think that an IC surviving N1 is a good reason to scum-read him.

More nope. Scum have an RB, and the doc had been outed. Remember?

[serrapaladin]

I happen to agree that town!thor could well be left alive given VLA and people scumreading him, but logic

[serrapaladin]

Paladin jumping on PP like that is giving me cold feet

FUCK THIS PARANOIA

I'm going to look at thor-paladin interactions.

Ever followed up on this, or was it just posturing?

[serrapaladin]

Sure, do I have to tho?

[serrapaladin]

So thor's flip wouldn't really change your reads at all?

[serrapaladin]

I doubt both scum!thor and scum!peng would be pushing for a loop lynch yesterday. Also, loop didn't feel like he was being bussed by his interaction with thor. Thor/shadow would make sense, though. I find it worrying this doesn't occur to you, hark.

[serrapaladin]

[serrapaladin]

I doubt both scum!thor and scum!peng would be pushing for a loop lynch yesterday.

Today, too.

Why do you doubt they would do that as scum? Wouldn't scum!Thor know that others wouldn't expect such blatant vote sheeping and use that to his advantage? That's a serious question, not me arguing against your point.

My experience is that scum will avoid playing too similarly. Whether or not that's sensible, I don't know. One argument is that if a townblock forms around the attacked player, both are in trouble. Both scum can certainly be on the same wagon, but for much of this, it was only thor and peng attacking loop.

Yes and I can say the same to you. We have different playstyles and logic when it comes to Mafia. I don't mind getting scumread over it, since it's part of the game. But I would appreciate it if you don't call me bad again.

Well that's a bit twitchy. I'm pretty sure I said nothing about scumreading you, and I haven't (recently) called you bad.

[serrapaladin]

I was drunk and got a little pissy because I didn't like getting called bad earlier.

I didn't say anything about you scumreading me. I said "getting scumread". Scumread me over my posts that you dislike if you want, but don't call me bad.(hint: this isn't directed only at you Serra)

Fair enough.

I'm starting to think we should lynch shadow over peng. Since MT's claim he's just kind of kept his head down hoping someone else gets lynched.

[serrapaladin]

I would still prefer lynching Penguin cause I think the scum teams is either Penguin-Thor or Penguin-Paladin.

orly?

[serrapaladin]

@Serra - can you describe to me what, if anything, you like about Loop's "case" on me? Because I feel like you lik eit, and that seems insane to me. It's hyper empty - he's complaining that I voted a null/scum read in deadline, prior to V/la as opposed to...voting a scum read? (ignoring that I'd been doing and pushing that for multiple days prior to the final vote move) So...where's the beef man? What are you smoking?

Where did I say I like her case?

[serrapaladin]

ffs

[serrapaladin]

@peng: what was it that you found about thor?

@hark: unless peng is messing around, at this point the only way you don't suck is if you're scum. Take your pick. If he said there's something he read up, you let him say it.

[serrapaladin]

I'll have a look at that in a second.

Do you think thor/shadow is most likely then?

pedit: @peng

[serrapaladin]

I gave him a post to say it. He didn't. I'm still convinced that he's scum. His reaction to the hammer was prepared in advance I think, in case someone reactiontests him like the blank hammer.

You should probably stop playing like this if you don't like being called bad.

[serrapaladin]

I'm pretty sure it was you that just denied the game discussion and information for the day, hark. That's pretty bad for the game. I'm sorry you disagree.

[serrapaladin]

I gave him a post to say it. He didn't. I'm still convinced that he's scum. His reaction to the hammer was prepared in advance I think, in case someone reactiontests him like the blank hammer.

And he literally told you to look at the game and what to focus on, so this is bullshit.

[serrapaladin]

2dumb4scum

loop is still town btw

[serrapaladin]

Yup, pretty sure it's shadow-thor, and should have moved from peng to shadow to avoid hark being dumb.

I've considered scum!hark recognising his play style from the last game, and replicating it here to his benefit, but his general attitude and the fact he got offended at being called bad suggests that's not the case.

[serrapaladin]

2dumb4scum

loop is still town btw

at this point i dont care what alignment are you. i just want you to lose

Cool. Wanna go get yourself modkilled?

[serrapaladin]

Anyone still around?

I hope I haven't been too harsh, but I have very little patience for these kind of hammers - they really aren't fair to the rest of the town.

If anyone with a concern for being night-killed has anything to direct at me, I'm still around.

[serrapaladin]

I kind of hope MT is scum that got lucky and all of this has been pointless. Would be quite fitting.

I'm feeling alright about thor/shadow though.

[serrapaladin]

Is there any part of my play you want to discuss now?

[serrapaladin]

Yeah, all of these are legitimate points.

Regarding activity, I don't think that's alignment dependent for thor, or most players at a certain level. And I don't think I would change my level of activity at all according to what my scumbuddy does.

My voting record is generally like this, since I think I'm better at getting reads by talking to people than by jumping around wagons. Also, D1 I was most confident in my MT read, and generally think that players like thor are best copped or allowed to be NKed.

And in case I don't get to say it, I'm sorry for attacking you, hark. I let my attack of your play spill over too much into an attack on you, which I shouldn't have.

[serrapaladin]

inb4 hark/shadow

[serrapaladin]

First this, though:

MT, if you're scum that happened to get a lucky claim, you've won. I really don't like investing time in an entirely lost cause, so if you're scum, can you please just tell us? If you do, I'll vote for myself, allowing you and your partner to just hammer me for the win. I don't want to spend another 4 weeks reading and rereading the game, only to find out it was never winable because of a really unlikely claim.

[serrapaladin]

And then:

I'm basically willing to vote for thor as well. I'm a little paranoid about both hark and shadow coming out with the argument that the kill incriminates thor, but also that's probably a bit obvious for scumbuddies. The second scum is likely shadow.

[serrapaladin]

yup, hark and i scum-team is super plausible tbh

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: thor

Loop was clearly killed because he would have been the hardest to convince not to vote thor. Hark basically said he'd be willing to vote me independent of his read.

Thor's suggestion of a me-hark scumteam, while also claiming there is no plausible scumbuddy for him (hint: it's shadow), is basically a scumclaim.

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE:

[serrapaladin]

I'm putting my vote back on in a second, I just wanted to say this confirms that hark-me is not the scumteam, and hark is not scum except with thor.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: thor

I'm actually quite happy for you to just go for the hammer.

MT is also town from his reaction.

Shadow goes tomorrow.

[serrapaladin]

I think the fact that shadow and thor are both coming out with some pretty bizarre theories like hark-me or hark-MT makes this pretty obvious.

[serrapaladin]

I'm pretty happy with this.

[serrapaladin]

you're definitely not scum, right?

[serrapaladin]

aww man

[serrapaladin]

nope

[serrapaladin]

looks pretty town to me

[serrapaladin]

Looks like we lost, thank you MT

wth is this?

[serrapaladin]

yeah, I don't think he is

my post at MT was genuine (though perhaps the promise to forfeit the game wasn't), and I don't waste people's time by trolling when the game is over

[serrapaladin]

ohhh shadow shadow shadow. with #1509 you imply that me and serra are scumbuddies who won, and thor and MT are town.

but its impossible for both MT and Thor to be town

wait, why would town think we're scumbuddies?

[serrapaladin]

I just genuinely don't see how town could think we're scumbuddies here after yesterday

[serrapaladin]

I just genuinely don't see how town could think we're scumbuddies here after yesterday

Lol thor/paladin

Shadow you're fucking drunk mate

This is with ref to what ?
If paladin is scum he kills mt tonight to get me lynched tomorrow.

Remember this

Hark, I told you ^

You funny.

2.why would you "go nuts"? what is the unlikely thing that you find in that scenario?
4.why not? make a guess? or is it that you didnt bother to answer, since you know that you arent dying tonight?

p-edit: why only paladin? wouldn't scum!hark do the same?

If you were scum you would have killed me not MT.

I knew I wasn't going to get killed because Paladin needs a mislynch today and I was the best option.
MT was conf town after Thor flipping RB.

This is nonsense.

UNVOTE:

I'm putting my vote back on in a second, I just wanted to say this confirms that hark-me is not the scumteam, and hark is not scum except with thor.

This is a "give me towncred" post.
If hark and paladin would have been the scum team, you would have already won because of MT's vote on Thor.

There was no reason to post this as town.
Eliminating a hark-paladin scum team wasn't needed.

Except I didn't know that thor was going to flip scum at that point.

Sup guys.

Found any scum yet, thor?

UNVOTE:

I'll have a read of stuff

Paladin's first post after replacing in.

Basically translated to "how are you buddy" to Thor.

Or to: "hi thor, you're the only player I know in this game and generally trust your reads"

Something I don't like after rereading Serra's ISO - he repeats WAY too much that shadow is likely the second scum. I understand saying it once, if you were afraid that you would be night killed. But why repeatedly say it over and over?

Not really sure what you're getting at. Towards the end of the game, having your reads work together becomes pretty important (see: thor's attempted defence that no scumbuddy works with him). If I mentioned him more than you would expect, it's because I was starting to consider associations.

I would have tried to kill Paladin on night 3 and hope that MT doesn't protect him.
I was scum reading you on day 3, so it would have been very easy to carry that same read today and try to get you lynched.

@Hark ^

This whole narrative that you wouldn't have killed MT is plainly false. There's no way you would have killed me. MT was conf-town, and pretty firm on hark-town.

Then there's also the Lucca scum meta thing loop brought up which was nicely swept under the carpet by Thor.

which is in my experience not something scum-thor would do to tie himself to a scumbuddy?

Some questions asked by thor to paladin and vice versa which one of them never answered and was never followed up by the person who asked it

1.

@Serra - can you describe to me what, if anything, you like about Loop's "case" on me? Because I feel like you lik eit, and that seems insane to me. It's hyper empty - he's complaining that I voted a null/scum read in deadline, prior to V/la as opposed to...voting a scum read? (ignoring that I'd been doing and pushing that for multiple days prior to the final vote move) So...where's the beef man? What are you smoking?

Where did I say I like her case?

2.

@thor: has loop's recent posting made any difference to your read?

The best thing he did was commenting on the Shadow/MT connection - but I'd already said it so it could have just been a scum parroting.
Haven't seen anything else alignment telling - do you see something I'm missing?

I'm pretty sure I did answer number 2. I don't chase up every single one of my questions if I don't think their answer is going to be useful.

[serrapaladin]

Don't really see myself voting hark here. If he's scum, I've seriously misjudged him. The peng hammer was pretty bad, but the beauty of meta is that you only really get one of those as scum before people catch on.

VOTE: shadow

[serrapaladin]

fair, gg

[serrapaladin]

sorry shadow

[serrapaladin]

Oh and btw, one of the reasons about why I replaced out of Newbie 1724 is because of you, Thor . Both this game and that were running at the same time, and we were scumbuddies in one of them, and weren't in the other. You were acting very similarly there like you were here, so I had to idea how to interact with you. I felt like you were town in 1724, but it would be extremely weird if I townread you there and scumread you here, when you played the same. I was worried that some cheeky kunt would read through 1724 and spot the totally different interactions, and catch me as scum (looking at you Pengo xd)

You probably shouldn't admit to things like this.