Mini Normal 1775 END!

[Almost50]

/Confirm

[Almost50]

Hmmm.. who do I know here? Lowell, texcat & chilled (and even they don't know me that well, so...)

VOTE: Almost

Yeah. That should grab some people's attention.

[Almost50]

My understanding was the defensiveness WAS a scum tell. Not a "only scum do it" thing but something that leans scum more than town. Am I off base here? Admitted newbie (this is my third game and first participating in RVS) so maybe my theory background is weaker than I thought, so please do correct me if I'm mistaken.

yes, I think you are a bit off. but I'm not going to pretend to be almighty and all knowledgeable.

1- The thing is, you sign up for a game to PLAY in it, not to get lynched on D1. Both Town & Scum don't want to end up dying early.

2- A mislynch is bad for Town. If you're getting mislynched when you seriously want to play for the win (as opposed to just chillin' and having fun) it does bother you.

3- Bad reasoning is always irritating regardless. Whether you're Town (obviously) or Scum (being caught for the wrong reasons or a misunderstanding) sucks.

4- If Town: A VT would rather be the target of a NK (that's sometimes referred to as "an honourable death") to protect the PRs. A PR would not want to go down w/o actually using their ability to serve the town. Scum will also hate to take an early hit that might reduce their winning chances by a big chunk.

So, being defensive is NAI at best. It's more dependent on the overall mindset of the player, as well as their current emotional status regardless of their true alignment. It also depends on their experience.

That being set, let me irritate everyone even more by *Drum Roll*....

VOTE: knightmare (L-2)

[Almost50]

VOTE: Sayaka Maizono

Early town points for chilled

[Almost50]

Unvote
Ok there's something very wrong with my wagon getting traction so easily.

Sakura back from yellow to green.

[Almost50]

Non-serious vote to put knight at L-2 because... ?

Check Sakura's reaction.

[Almost50]

Enough of knightmare to get an initial town lean on him. Sayaka though could use some pressure to get them talking.

VOTE: Sayaka

[Almost50]

Preliminary town leans: chilled, Garmr & knight. Everyone else is more or less in the null zone.

[Almost50]

@knight:
I could've easily missed your question directed at me the way you typed it inside the quote

It simply means I'm getting early reads and sorting people out accordingly, and I need Sayaka to talk more with someone other than you to get a better read on them. I could also get on lowell seeing as both votes there are town leans for me.

N.B. All my reads are PRELIMINARY. This means they're temporary and subject to change at any given moment according to new posts.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Madonna

Also

fos : Goodlordwill

Bad vote

I will however
VOTE: Lowell
I know as a gut player how it feels to have gut reads, but you seem to be hiding behind your gut reasoning for voting here.

GOOD vote

I would still like more votes on Sayaka. We can sort out both Sayaka & Lowell simultaneously.

Also, I've got a question: Do we know anything specific about the setup? Like, do we know exactly how many mafia players to expect? Whether there could be an SK? Any particular roles that are guaranteed to exist?? etc..?

[Almost50]

Why? I think Madonna is scum.

Lowell is prob scum too.

So vote the one with more votes on them to actually pressure them. Starting a new wagon when we already have 3 going on is not a good idea, unless you genuinely scum read her and have a case convincing enough to push her all the way.

I just want the town to work together, so we move on in packs to resolve individuals. So, come the time we do need to commit to a lynch each of us has enough conviction to vote for X, Y or Z. Wagons of 1 or 2 people are not exactly productive at this time.

[Almost50]

Thank you. I will also join, so Lowell is @ L-2

VOTE: Lowell

You can start talking anytime now, Lowell.

[Almost50]

@Sayaka:

1- Main Original Reason: You jumped on knightmare as their 4th voter with a naked vote. At first I assumed it was a belated RVS, but when he asked you gave a hell of a narrative of his "bad reaction". I don't agree with your reasoning to have voted him in the first place, but still it could've been a bad read. HOWEVER, when voting him FOR A REASON you should've introduced your case on the spot. Not doing so makes it look more like "Let me try to get in the mix, and if something goes wrong I could back track and claim it was RVS".

2- Secondary Original Reason: Your counter argument to his defense sucked. You accused him of "not considering the motivations behind Sakura's posts and instead are just posturing here.". However, you yourself refused to consider his "I did want to generate discussion/reactions" as his motive.

3- NEW Additional Reason: In #166 you state "I will retract my previous scum read on knightmare. I also think he is town." at one point, but you conclude your post with "I need some time to sit before deciding where I want to move my vote.". I don't see why you would want to keep parking your vote on someone you already read as town. If you can't decide on whom you want to vote for there's always the unvote option for a start. Keeping your vote on a town read is saying something and doing the opposite. It's even worse than stating someone is scummy without voting them because they're "unsure about it".

In sum, your talk doesn't go with your actions so far, so you need to be sorted out, and soon.

[Almost50]

Not a huge fan of your post there A50.

Anything specific?

[Almost50]

I'll catch up tomorrow. Busy past couple of days. Party tonight for Saint patty's, woot woot.

Warning.. warning.. Scummy vibes detected. Please beware and consider taking action.

[Almost50]

I don't have reasons for doing anything. I'm waiting for stuff to happen.

More scummy vibes. Yikes.

[Almost50]

What is your logic behind assuming I would have laid out all my reasoning immediately?

You didn't have to, but then you could've called RSV and moved on. The fact that it was a naked serious vote is what doesn't bode well with me. Or maybe it's because I don't like naked voted to begin with. SOme players do them often though (like Xtoxm, SnarkySnowmam, RadiantCoebelts, and a bunch more) but I've never played with you, so maybe I'm treating you like "everyone else" and not "that special category". *Shrug*

[Almost50]

This is seriously all you fucking got about this? It's fucking easy to do this. Watch. What the hell do you want me to do? I gave you a fantastic unalignment indicative statement about why I will be fucking busy today, and now I'm taking up my time to do this. You're god damn welcome. It's page 9. Nothing has happened. I am known for being good AFTER information is revealed into this game. I am known to end days with a quick hammer, AS TOWN, so we can move on from nothingness and actually get to figuring out the game.

Stop FUCKING say FUCKING when you're FUCKING talking to FUCKING me. I don't FUCKING appreciate it. It's not FUCKING necessary, and it FUCKING doesn't FUCKING relay any FUCKING message aside from FUCKING making me FUCKING want to FUCKING ignore you.

How's FUCKING that for a FUCKING request to FUCKING consider?

[Almost50]

@Chilled - What's your thought on Sakura?

@Almost - Same question.

@Sakura - how do you feel about Almost being the L-2 vote multiple times? What's your read on almost?

I like the fact you slid my name in between my top 2 town reads. Sakura is obv town doing the effort to probe and pressure people to get reaction from them. In short, she's scum hunting properly.

[Almost50]

It doesn't excuse them not doing anything else but following other's leads though. I don't see any scum hunting coming from their end.

FTR; this is texcat at her prime. She will always a candidate for the mislynch of the day. I've seen her play before.

[Almost50]

Almost50 flipping town wouldn't really affect my read on Sakura. It would just mean that a flailing townie didn't vote her.

Why on Earth would you have expected me to vote Sakura at any given point????

[Almost50]

Top 3 scum reads (in order): Boon, Lowell, Sayaka

Top 3 town reads (in order): chilled, Sakura, Garmr

Other weaker town reads (in no particular order): GLW, knight, texcat

Null: smith, Material Girl , Expedience

[Almost50]

Now answer my questions, and then put enough actual effort into scum hunting to make me rethink my scum read on you.

Or I can simply sit back & enjoy being scum read by you, boon & tex.

[Almost50]

This is my third mafia game,

Oh. shoot. OK.. disregard my previous response. I will try to get back to you re: your questions. SORRY.

[Almost50]

Why did you town read ( 74 ) Sakura's vote pull?

Her reaction is typically town motivated. Yes, it could be fake, but I didn't think so. A town player is never too confident in their reads early into D1, and would be worried they made a mistake no matter how strong they felt about the targeted opponent. No town player would want a wagon to build up so fast on their target that early and without much effort from them (the voter) done to argue and convince others. It does look like scum and/or noobs jumped up the wagon.

[Almost50]

You've hopped on bandwagons for "pressure"

This is not accurate. I voted knight for two reasons (both searching for reactions). The first is to see who would leave the wagon & why, and who might push further to L-1 and why.

Just before me both boon & Sayaka had jumped the wagon for weak reasoning to my liking. Soon after I jumped the wagon (while making it obvious I wasn't scum reading knight) Sakura left immediately, which IS the natural thing to do. She earned herself town points.

Sayaka though was still suspicious so I wanted her back to talk about an RVS turned into a serious vote over a weak reason so early into the game.

At the same time lowell had joined right after Sakura left the wagon (if I remember correctly), so he also became suspicious.

Suspicious players need to be sorted first. My first suspect was Sakura herself, but look how she turns to be one of my top town reads now.

Sayana's wagon didn't get much recognition, so lowell could've been dealt with first. It didn't really matter which of them I sorted first.

So, knight was in search for reactions from others (not knight) while both Sayaka & Lowell were for pressure based on genuine scum leans.

[Almost50]

Why would anyone feel much "pressure" if there are non-genuine votes dumped on them and only at L-2? Especially early in D1 on a board that isn't crawling with potentially hammer-happy newbies?

Because being close to the lynch is always irritating and people tend to lose composure is situations like these. It is when you lose your act and bring out the real you that you become easier to read.

And, btw.. there's no such thing as pressure w/o a vote. You can talk all you want, but unless you back it up with a vote I will probably skim and ignore your case. (I even almost did WITH your vote on me, except when you reminded me you're new I felt the need to explain it to you bc I was in your shoes not too long ago).

[Almost50]

Do you see the above list? Do you feel pressured?

Yes, and NO. I do NOT feel any pressure bc:

1- I'm at L-4. How's having less than half of the votes required for a lynch considered "pressure"??

2- (And this is the most important factor): I have not said or done a single thing that I didn't believe in. Even if I do get to L-1 I'm not going to crack or flail, bc I know my alignment and I know what I've said and done and why I did/say them. In other words, you won't catch me contradicting myself or back tracking.

[Almost50]

Now answer my questions, and then put enough actual effort into scum hunting to make me rethink my scum read on you.

As for the first part; I did. If I've missed something feel free to bring it up again.

As for the effort, I AM doing the best I can. You might not see it, granted. Everybody plays differently, and just bc you don't notice/understand what I'm doing doesn't mean I'm not doing it .. and for a purpose.

[Almost50]

yeah, because it's dumb. honestly no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that."

How do you know who believes and who doesn't? And are you saying ALL players voting you are just trying to avoid getting lynched themselves??

[Almost50]

Looks like he's been here since 2006, too, so it's not just like...easily caught out due to inexperience.

SO you acknowledge Lowell is a VERY experienced player, yet you believe him to be "the fall guy" who would get lynched often on D1 for no reason??

[Almost50]

I didn't like texcat's sheeping of me.

VOTE: texcat

No one wants to be first? Sure, I'll be your huckleberry.

I'll be damned if these two are not scum partners. This is darn too obvious. At least try to make it subtle. Feels like a deja vu from OPEN 626 with a Voided-Karnage-Titus scum trio.

[Almost50]

Sakura, I think you are confusing town unity with scum jumping on convenient wagons. I see a lot of people saying that they are voting for reactions, but

I don't see anyone talking about what the reactions actually told them

. One of the reactions that I look for is to see who is willing to jump on any wagon. I think that's a scum trait. And A50 has jumped, although I think ChilledTea may have just exceeded him in number of jumps back and forth.

Like, I've explained everything I did before and after I did it. I voted knight after making it abundantly clear I wasn't scum reading them (post #70, and I explained later why I did it and what I got from it. I saw Sakura's unvote as a town move (post #74). I saw Lowell's vote (putting knight back @ L-2) as a scum move. I called chilled's vote on Madonna a "bad vote" after I had commended them for voting Sayaka & even joining them on that one. I called Sakura's vote on Lowell a "good vote", and lated explained to smith why I though votes on Sayaka & Lowell were good votes. I also explained why I switched from Sayaka to Lowell myself.

Now what is it you want to know more about what my motives were and/or what reactions I got and how I interpreted them??

The problem with you is you're a bit lazy (this is NOT meant to be an attack on you or your playstyle). Tex, I've seen your play before and it often ends you up as the mislynch of the day. I fear this maybe the case here. Please try to -at least- read the posts. I'm not even asking you to "read between the lines". I mean, smith asked and I explained. If there's something you don't understand please feel free to ask.

[Almost50]

A50's reads. I see his list. Not much there to comment on. He doesn't really explain why anyone is where they are on his list.

<< The typical FA reaction after this.

[Almost50]

As I said earlier I would entertain wagoning Madonna or Texcat as well.

Neither of them is a good lynch I'm afraid. Madonna is still null to me, and Texcat is jumping between null & slight town atm.

Elsewhere, my read are basically the same, except for smith who has worked his way up to fairly town due to what appears to be genuine scum hunting with some plausible effort and w/o fear.

[Almost50]

Goodlordwill and I are both town.

Good to know. I'm having a hard time sorting you out tbh.

[Almost50]

@exp: Very well, I'm willing to go along.

UNVOTE: lowell.

Bad TOWN move, IMHO.

Town: Because the motivation is clearly town behind the unvote.

Bad: Because you would want to see who might hammer without stating intent and/or giving Lowell proper time to claim.

IMHO: This is not a universally accepted principle. It's just MY way of playing/perceiving the game. Others may disagree and it's all fine by me.

[Almost50]

If Lowell does end up flipping scum, might be worth looking into as a last resort bus/trying to derail it a little. TownLowell I'd probably start town reading Exp from that, though.

Funny that you think the wagon is crap, yet you put the assumption of him flipping scum BEFORE the assumption of him flipping town, and even build on it. Looks like lining up lynches to me.

[Almost50]

If Lowell is town it means ______
If Lowell is scum it means _______

IF he's town I'd probably have to reconsider my whole read list. I would probably start from scratch there.

If he is scum though I'd be looking into both Boon & Expedience first. Sayaka next, then Madonna and Texcat as the last resort. Everybody else is town in that case (NOT because of the composition of the wagon, but rather bc it gives me more confidence in my reads).

[Almost50]

@Exp: Please find the time to take a quick glimpse on THIS and/or THIS for examples on how flips are revealing for the time if you have a good eye. The first one I was a replacement in too late into the game. The second our only mistake was not to wait for Ranger's input on D2, so we had to wait till D3 to grab the win.

[Almost50]

So i'm trying to see why lowell would do that. If he flips scum there has to be a reasoning of sort a deeper meaning I feel it.
If that meaning makes you town or scum is what I will figure out latter.

I think Scum!Lowell could've been trying to cast doubt on a new player thinking they would be an easy mislynch, but it didn't work out too well.

[Almost50]

@a50: walk me through expedience. "I don't want a quick hammer" seems reasonable to me. What pings your radar there?

I took it more as an attempt to soft derail the wagon. I mean, he didn't stop at "let's not have a speed lynch" but bit by bit he's been trying to subtly convince Madonna to unvote (Madonna being the obvious voter there who's not totally convinced Lowell is scum), then casting doubt on her in an attempt to raise a counter wagon.

Add that to the linking with a town player (GLW), and to note he's the only "considerably town read" of mine who is NOT on Lowell it's a subtle attempt to dissect the town block into smaller bits that could easily be turned against each other.

I

could

be over analyzing this and he could very well be a town player who's just not feeling the Lowell wagon, but is doing it the wrong way. If he genuinely believes it's a bad lynch he should be working on a town case for Lowell to convince us it's not the right lynch. In the case of him being town then it was also a bad move to link himself with GLW at this time, and especially so when GLW is not exactly the most active player in the game.

[Almost50]

So let us be clear about this: all of these people are voting Lowell. Apparently I am the only scummy one despite my townread of him and my insistence that this wagon stop. Since it has not, I am being a team player (or busser!) and helping all of these towny townspeople. Did I get that right?

You don't vote someone you're genuinely town reading. Period. You may vote someone you're not too sure about if there's no other option or if your strong scum read is clearly not going to happen as a compromise, but "I'm town reading him but I'm still voting them" does look scummy.

[Almost50]

@Madonna - you are waiting for a claim or a hammer? What happens if Lowells claims a PR?

That's a good question. I don't think a claim would matter much anymore as I myself won't be buying it. HOWEVER, someone else might...

[Almost50]

Not saying that would help anyone with refuting the cases against Lowell or anything, but putting that out there.

Sorry, but ^this coming right after this V is not going to help much.

I am not really interested in this constant baiting of people asking questions only to be dismissed. I have an ISO. You can read it if you would like.

[Almost50]

Yeah, not interested in this idea since we are clearly beyond that. Your post is more scum fuel than of town substance.

If you're "not interested" .. don't ASK. I only responded to your post quoted below:

So let us be clear about this: all of these people are voting Lowell. Apparently I am the only scummy one despite my townread of him and my insistence that this wagon stop. Since it has not, I am being a team player (or busser!) and helping all of these towny townspeople. Did I get that right?

Sorry for trying to acknowledge your question/query

[Almost50]

@Madonna: OK.. I'll bite. It's not like you need to read anyone's case though. All you need to do is ISO Lowell himself (just 19 posts in total, btw):

Note: I'm puling some excerpts, but linking each and every post so you can view in full.

1- 17 RSV
2- 57 Votes knight for... ????
3- 84 Reasoning for voting knight is basically "this guy is scum. I'm a gut player" while stating "not sure how, or why, this wagon started. But don't care."

NOTE: This came as a 5th vote on knight. Is it serious? Is it for a reaction? Is it for lolz?? Let's see:

4- 85 "Relax, kill, repeat."?? Is this how you play this game?
5- 89 "Let's do less thinking and more playing with our hearts... and guts.... kill knight."?? Less thinking?? Play with hearts and guts?? Like how you play.. roulette?
6- 90 Doesn't even count
7- 144 Accusing knight of being OMGUSy when knight obviously voted for a reason. Out of SIX people who voted knight up to that point (counting Sakura who had unvoted) knight ONLY voted Lowell. How's that OMGUSy?
8- 175 Not even sure who's that directed at.
9- 276 Knight isn't happening, so let's switch to smith for some reason. Also boon is town "because of his obnoxious multi-posts". (Now that's how you scum hunt alright )
10- 278 "Stop asking questions: vote mhsmith." (Now that's some convincing reason for someone to sheep them)
11- 283 "And wagons on newbs are fun, anyway." + "so I'm moving to an easier, hopefully more hilarious, target."
12- 316 Please do read this one. WHAT point? And how is Expedience giving him town vibes? (Expedience <<< @ Smith). Then 3 scum reads who are all strong town?
13- 318 No comment.
14- 320 Ignoring questions directed at him.
15- 327 Less than optimal response.
16- 354 Now accusing SMITH of being OMGUSy, when -in fact- smith had yet t vote him. Also where is this said "self-preservation" when smith is actually throwing everything including the kitchen sink into the game? The guy is relentless, doesn't hold back, isn't afraid of engaging others for whatever.
17- 358 Finally responds to a question. Not much of an explanation, but a response none-the-less.
18- 360 FIVE PEOPLE voting him and "no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that.""
19- 380 Votes Texcat, the reason being....???

So, you see.. out of 19 posts only one contained a glimpse of an intent to be playing the game. Otherwise, it's mudding, flirting, fluffing, being all sorts of anything but a scum hunter.

Please tell me what YOU saw in this ISO that you liked (apart from being funny at times)?

[Almost50]

You should vote Madonna because I'm in a neighborhood with her and she scumslipped, I'm also a daycop and scum with her.

*Looks at quote... tries reading backwards... tries reading upside down... checks to see if it makes more sense if he stands BEHIND the screen...*

Like, I can't tell which part(s) are tongue is cheek and which are serious (if any).

[Almost50]

Fine. Madonna it is then.

VOTE: Madonna <<< L-1

CLAIM!

P.S. Well done, scum team. *Thumbs Up*

[Almost50]

Why texcat over Boon or chilled? (I would've included Lowell, but I wanted the question to be simple so that I could get a simple answer)

[Almost50]

@chilled: Either your reads or mine are horrible this game. My top 3 scum candidates are Boonskiies, Lowell & Expedience. I would rather lynch either of the former two.

[Almost50]

Ok so first things first.

1) Knowing now that Madonna's town, i'm mostly gonna be looking at the other ppl voting that wagon.

If you knew that Madonna was town, why did you vote her?

2) Day ended within 2-3 days (more or less the way Lowell wanted), I'm interested in seeing what Lowell supposedly manages to get from short days, enough to want to rush Day 1 before.

You put both Lowell and Madonna to L-1 and so have no right to say this.

Making up reasons to make Sakura look bad???

1- "Knowing NOW" =/= knew from back then. Sakura made it clear she thought one of them was scum BEFORE the flip. She says she knows now AFTER the flip that Madonna was town.

2- She didn't put them BOTH @L-1. I do realize you corrected this in the following post, but then you go "but you basically did". Even worse, you're pushing her to vote texcat instead, when she clearly thinks LOWELL is the scum.

Here's what I'm getting: YOU are trying your best to deter a Lowell lynch bt creating a wagon on just about anyone else. You're scum. Lowell is scum & Boon is scum. I just want to start with Lowell.

VOTE: Lowell

[Almost50]

Well, you put Madonna to L-2, which is basically the same thing.

Yes, indeed. L-2 is the same is L-1. I like this statement.

BTW, even is she did all what you say, you yourself stated it was "what Lowell wanted", yet you would vote anyone BUT Lowell. How consistent are you with your own logic?

[Almost50]

Here's what I think Sakura's mindset is.

She pushes knighmare, and sees other people following her vote. Then she unvotes quickly and throws shade on the wagon because of her crippling fear of being scumread for being the main proponent of a wagon that flips town. The justification that she gives for this is that she felt uneasy about the wagon.

Then when Lowell and Madonna get run up, she nearly completes the wagons with no unease expressed towards their speed. There were a ton of votes that I think town!Sakura from what I've seen here would've (kinda stupidly) called scummy, but I think that she deemed it best to just let the town lynch Madonna.

1) Knowing now that Madonna's town, i'm mostly gonna be looking at the other ppl voting that wagon.

This post cements this in my mind, since I believe she worries that the town would say things like this about her if knightmare was lynched and flipped town. Also it's a really scummy post in its own right.

Maybe it's not all as explicit, conscious, or poorly explained as I've made it sound, but that's what I'm seeing.

The one thing that stands to me in this post is you do acknowledge knightmare (now Toasty) to be town. I will hold you to that view.

[Almost50]

I'm getting negative vibes from chilled. I tend to read him as town, but he seems more...

comment dire

... agitated this time around. The weird attempt to link texcat and garmr (while I'm not getting particularly town vibes from either) strikes me as a stretch.

OK, mate. Who ARE you town reading then?

[Almost50]

The ammount of possible night killing PRs doesnt even ammount only to roleblcoks and doctors, there's also bulletproof.
Why were you even assuming roleblock is the only possibility?

It's clearly because he's scum.

Yet, you're not voting him.

[Almost50]

Explain that joke. You're putting Madonna at L-1 as a "oh fine" sort of thing with a snarky "well done scum team" joke? Was this a suggestion Madonna and Lowell were scum team? Or that her lynch was orchestrated by scum?

The latter. I firmly believe scum redirected the Lowell lynch to Madonna, and there was no way to stop the town from shooting itself in the foot. The sad think is it's happening all over again, but I'm not going to be on this one.

And just to be on the clear: texcat is NOT my strongest town read. Not even close. But I've played with her and was warned she's a lynch bait often enough, yet we still went on and lynched her bc she still felt scummy, and guess what? She flipped town.

[Almost50]

Let me get this straight: you voted someone whose lynch you did NOT believe in? To put her at L-1?

Was your strategy here to try and grab town cred because town!Madonna did the exact same dumb thing or did you have something else in mind?

What town cred do I get from lynching town? It was 50% frustration with town yielding to scum, and the other 50% second guessing my own reads bc everyone else seemed to see something I didn't. If it was my own lynch I would've probably done the same -out of frustration- seeing how the Lowell wagon got decimated and redirected to Madonna despite all efforts. When I start doubting my reads I need a flip to give me confidence in them, lest I'm playing a really bad game (which is possible). Since there was no way to stop the Madonna lynch the way things were going, I decided to bring the day to an end rather than wait for a week to get the same person lynched anyway.

Mate, you will probably be next, or maybe I will. As long as the town keeps listening to scum reasoning rather than rely on their own there will always be bad lynches, but what bugs me the most is when it's obvious who is directing the show and we still go their way.

I'm not lynching outside of Boons, Lowell & Expedience today. You, Toasty, Garmr & Sakura are my town block for now, with town leans on texcat & GLW. chilled & Sayaka are on the fence for now.

Btw; it has become a site meta for scum to stall and delay lynches until everyone is bored to death. It doesn't help that town players neither push forward nor even consider lurking/active lurking grounds for suspicion leading to a lynch.

I'm sorry if I'm wandering outside the specifics of this very game, but it has become hard for even a PR with a guilty to push on their target w/o outright claiming. The town just won't listen. Like, what if I was the Cop and I got a guilty on either Lowell or Boons? (I'm NOT and I DON'T. It's just a hypothetical example). How am I supposed to convince you guys to lynch the guilty the way you're so vulnerable to scum manipulation?

[Almost50]

I mean seriously, A50, YOU were the one who put her at L-1. ct can't quick-hammer her if you don't do that. So "good job scum team" doens't really work as an explanation for enabling what you felt like a mislynch. Just because town!Madonna pulled that stunt doesn't mean that it's anything other than fundamentally suspicious.

First; that was not a quick hammer on Madonna. 17 hours is more than enough time.
Second; so what if she did come back & claim? Would a claim have saved her?? In an open setup.. maybe, but in a closed setup it's nothing to be a Universal Backup.

OK, let me put it like this: We need to stop talking about whose fault it was and start thinking about the situation at hand. You either suspect me now or you still believe in me. If the former, go ahead and lynch me. If the latter, let's find some mutual ground to stand on and move from. You blaming me, me blaming "them" won't solve the game anyway.

If we have a Cop they've got an innocent. If we have a Doctor; they also have one. Also a Town RB would have one. If we have a JailKeeper they've got someone they don't know whether they were the assigned killer or the target .. etc. etc.

So, at least let's combine our top 3 scum reads. Each and everyone should nominate 3 players for the lynch. This way -at least- we see who is reading whom as scum. The person with more suspicion on them gets lynched, but then if they flip we know who pushed them rather than who went for it out of boredom and frustration.

My nominees are: Boons; Lowell & Expedience. (I repeat to make it abundantly clear whom I'm expecting to flip scum). Care to share yours?

[Almost50]

I picked Lowell primarily because he was the lynch candidate saved by Madonna.

I very much support this notion. At one point Lowell was @ L-2, then the very next VC Madonna was @ L-1. It took us 12 hours to turn a 3/5 into a 6/3. And it wasn't like Madonna was confirmed scum either.

[Almost50]

More nominees please? At least Garmr & Expedience should be able to provide their respective top 3 scum reads.

[Almost50]

@smith:
May you vote Lowell, please? His flip should help you solidify or reverse your read on texcat. They can't be scum together, can they?

@chilled:
Likewise.

[Almost50]

@Expedience: You have yet to mention any other potential wagons you might be interested in.

[Almost50]

Thank you

[Almost50]

Hi, I haven't read anything that happened since i left yet and not planning on doing so anytime soon, if anyone would be so nice as to provide a summary that would be cool.

Actually I wanted YOu to tell ME who your top 3 scum reads are. It doesn't help that you're not caught up, but "not planning on doing so anytime soon" is scummy as can be.

[Almost50]

Here are the lists provided by others. Everyone has their own suspects:

Boons, Lowell & Expedience (Almost)
texcat, Lowell & chilledtea (smith)
Garmr, texcat & Lowell (chilledtea)
chilledtea, Lowell & Boons (texcat)
chilledtea, Boons & Expedience (Garmr)
Sakura, Sakaya, texcat (Expedience)
texcat, chilled, Sakura, Sakaya (Boons)

[Almost50]

Expedicen+Boons+(Lowell?)

That's where I'm at. That's where I've been all along.

[Almost50]

@Almost - I'm begging you most of all. You scum read me, I know, but you also scum read Sakura. Let me prove to you that I am town. Help us lynch Sakura...

Where did I say I scum read her? I once scum read Sayaka. Maybe you got confused between the two. In fact, I'm town reading your entire suggested scum team.

[Almost50]

and I played a lot of games with RadiantCowbells when he was still newer.

I'm sorry, but I'm the dumbest of my 12 siblings. Where did this come from? I mean, what does it refer for? How did RC become relevant to the proceedings of this game?

[Almost50]

Or maybe you took my comment on ONE post (the one she said she was not going to do a catch up soon) as a general comment. I did say that particular post was scummy, but I do/did not scum read Sakura in general.

On another note, Sayaka, Lowell & GLW need to show up. I believe Easter is well over now, so we need these 3 to talk.

[Almost50]

Almost50, where are you going with the top 3 candidates lists?

Results so far:

5 Lowell
5 texcat
4 chilledtea
4 Boons
3 Expedience
2 Sakura
2 Sakaya
2 Garmr
1 Almost

It looks like either you or Lowell still. I'm opposed to your lynch, but you appear on the lists of 3 of my town reads. On the other hand, Lowell is NOT on the lists of my other 2 scum reads, so all 5 willing to settle for a Lowell lynch are town, which gives me more confidence in my own push on him.

[Almost50]

I wanted to say the same thing except GLW has been replaced by dierfire.

OK, my bad. So DF needs to talk then.

[Almost50]

Oh, well. Let's make one happen then.

VOTE: Boons

[Almost50]

Toasty/Sakura/Almost/Garmr/Lowell were on my wagon. I'll bet all 3 scum were there.

Actually; only myself and Sakura were on the Madonna wagon that lead to her lynch. What makes you think 3 scum would pile on you but not on Madonna?

[Almost50]

UNVOTE: for now.

[Almost50]

Boon is lying tho

I was waiting for something like that.

[Almost50]

It is interesting indeed that the 3 scum.. err.. the 3 suspects are all voting Sakura.

Oh, I have a splitting headache right now and I need to go to bed. I'll try to think everything over in the morning before I place my vote.

[Almost50]

Hey Sakura, does your vengeful ability get activated if you are nightkilled?

Not really.
It's only if i am lynched.

WHY did you answer THAT?

The mafia will most likely avoid lynching you and try to NK you to avoid your wrath. That's UNLESS we're both wrong and boons is -somehow- town.

I'm not buying this town!boon though, so I'm going to cast my vote on him regardless at the end of my read up (which should be 5-10 minutes from now).

[Almost50]

"In Non-Normal games, Vengeful may be used as a role modifier.

This is indeed the wordings on the wiki, and it simply means Vengeful could be ADDED as a modifier to another role (vengeful Cop, vengeful Doctor, vengeful Tracker.. etc.)

HOWEVER, in normal games vengeful IS A ROLE. Vengeful Townie is totally and utterly normal.

[Almost50]

Do you have a source for the use of Vengeful as an explicitly Normal role?

How about we ask the mod?

@Mod: Is "Vengeful TOWNIE" normal or not? Thank you.

As for the 1 for 1 trade, it is fine I guess.. except the scum would probably shoot her anyway, so that is even better for us. That and the fact she is very much willing to eat the rope to take Boons with her confirms her town alignment to me. Scum will NOT trade 1 on 1 even if it was for the claimed JK.

[Almost50]

Oh, shoot. I forgot to cast my vote:

VOTE: Boons

[Almost50]

And if you're wondering why I'm being a bit stubborn, it's bc I've just lost a game -as town- bc the town wouldn't listen to me on D1 and kept KainTepes alive until D3. I had told them on D1 what the setup was, and I pointed out KT as the prime suspect, and then I kept pushing him on D2, but they yielded to the scum manipulation and by the time they realized what was going on it was too late. you don't play out a 9-2-2 setup by lynching 2 town and losing 3 to NKs to get yourself into a 4-2-2 and expect to win. In fact, they didn't even lynch him on D3 either, but they lynched his partner, and the other scum team took care of him by night, while he himself killed town, thus sending us to a LyLo in D4.

[Almost50]

@Smith:

What would it take to convince you to vote Boons and get it done with?? Would me offering to be tomorrow's lynch if he flips town do the trick? I mean, both myself and Sakura are now willing to take the fall for it. Would you PLEASE vote before I die of boredom?

[Almost50]

*Singing*
I can't stand this indecision
Married with a lack of vision
Everybody wants to "stall the game"

over 10 Days of day? I can't wait for the Blitz section to re-open.

[Almost50]

@Boons:

Honestly, mate. If you could cut down on using the F word so often I just might be willing to listen to you. I admit I automatically get dissatisfied with people cursing that much. I know it's s character trait, but -in the sake of friendliness- please try to skip one of every 2 or even 3 times you get the urge to squeeze in that word (or any other curse). Thank you very much in advance

[Almost50]

It is possible, but really at this point they need to just claim if they are a jailkeeper or stopped a kill or whatever.

THIS happens to be what this is all about. The scum team want the protective role outed. I have seen it at least twice before (Titus & Karnage). The first Titus was @ L-1 and claimed Cop and Guilty Lion hammered as a counter claim thus outing himself. The second (incidentally Titus was Karnage's scum partner in that game too). I only replaced in on the last day though, so that one isn't on my wiki, but I remember when the cop didn't counter Titus tried to provoke a claim never-the-less, which helped me through my read overnight and as soon as the day started I was there to place the hammer w/o hesitation.

[Almost50]

SO IF YOUR ROLE IS ONE WHICH MAY HAVE PREVENTED A KILL LAST NIGHT, YOU MUST CLAIM IN YOUR NEXT POST.

No they should not. They should not out themselves with no reason other than to satisfy you and your partners.

@Doctor/RoleBlocker: Please don't claim (if you haven't done so already. I have yet to read the last couple of pages, but the thread is open so no hammer I think.)

[Almost50]

Sure, except if no one CC's... im vengekilling YOU instead.

No, Sakura. You still kill Boons. Boons flips scum and Expedience is confirmed scum for his hardcore defence. Lowell should be third to fall.

[Almost50]

and then tomorrow if one of you is dead, we can grill the other based on the flip?

And what happens if they're both still alive??? We lynch another townie and wait. Right???

[Almost50]

if he's still alive pushing him a lot harder on what he did N2 and why.

All he has to do is claim he was RB'd. In fact, that is the reason why he changed from soft claiming JK to hard claiming JOAT.

Man, you just dropped two notches on my read list. The only two reasons why you're not in my scum pool already is that you remind me of myself with your stubbornness, and the fact that I've already set my mind on the trio of Boons, Expedience & Lowell being scum together.

Smith, we had a situation like this on D1. Lowell almost got lynched, and the wagon on him miraculously got redirected towards a TOWN PR (Madonna was a Universal Backup). I'm not going to make the same mistake twice. I'd rather lose bc I went through with the lynch on my scum read than to lose bc I yielded to outside pressure to abandon the wago and join one that I'm not feeling. NO WAY!

[Almost50]

Lowell tried to out the JK too remember with his "someone might have roleblocked texcat". Yeah, he could be scum.

Guess what, I was outed by most likely townies instead. Exp, smith, sakura, all townreads I mean come on guys.

Expedience is NOT town. Expedience is scum. (Just remember I told you so after I get NK'd).

It's Boons + Expedience + Lowell.

Garmer most probably was the TARGET of the NK, if there's no other protective PR that could've saved someone else.

Lynch Boons, then Expedience then you can lynch every other town player to avoid lynching Scum!Lowell.

[Almost50]

Also you aren't getting NK'd when I am there for the taking.

Try again.

[Almost50]

I could go with a Lowell lynch, but I feel stronger about this right now:

VOTE: Expedience

[Almost50]

It would be nice if everybody provided their updated scum reads (I'm only interested in your top 2 scum reads). Mine are Expedience first then Lowell.

[Almost50]

Honestly I find it unlikely to think scum would just openly go against a runaway scumwagon like yesterday. That's just me, though... and WIFOMy for sure.

That doesn't give me much about whom you're scum reading.

[Almost50]

As far as other scum, I would say maybe Maestro / texcat / Almost50. That's really all I can see.

Interesting. Why don't you toss in Sakura and Toasty there too. Oh, and smith for that matter.

[Almost50]

Am I delusional?? Is it not as obvious as I think it is??? Expedience & Lowell are the remaining scum, and we have 6 players willing to lynch Expedience, and 5 willing to lynch Lowell. What's with this "I still doubt smith could be scum"? nonsense?!

And whoever still doubts me needs to start playing THIS game. I had preliminary town leans on chilled, Garmr & knight/Toasty as early as #83. I called chilled vote on Madonna a bad one in #152 & requested him to vote Lowell in #160. In #211 I started scum reading Boons and never stopped since.

IUn #310 I clearly stated chilled and Sakura were my top 2 town reads and in #311 I defended texcat when suspicion was growing about her playstyle.

Then check this out:

Top 3 scum reads (in order): Boon, Lowell, Sayaka (now Maestro)

Top 3 town reads (in order): chilled, Sakura, Garmr

Other weaker town reads (in no particular order): GLW (now Dierfire), knight (now Toasty), texcat

Null: smith, Material Girl , Expedience

In #395 I clearly pointed out how Boons is defending Lowell using bad logic, and in #395 I reassert the connection between the two.

In #428 I defended BOTH Madonna & texcat and started town reading smith, and -again- I called him town in #445.

In #452 I highlighted another Boons contradiction. It might be worth mentioning Boons was distancing with Exp as well (read #418 in full).

In #499 I made it clear I had come to the conclusion Boons & Expedience are Lowell's buddies. I still harboured some suspicion regarding Sayaka (Maestro now), Madonna & texcat but ONLY if one of the prime 3 flipped town.

If you check #517 You will clearly see why I ended up voting Madonna despite having more faith in my reads on the scum trio of Boons, Lowell & Expedience. I evidently did not "fully" town read Madonna, so when it appeared like we might be risking a no lynch I did it with a grain of salt. Let me quote myself again:

You don't vote someone you're genuinely town reading. Period. You may vote someone you're not too sure about if there's no other option or if your strong scum read is clearly not going to happen as a compromise, but "I'm town reading him but I'm still voting them" does look scummy.

In #526 you can find my case on Lowell (up to that point), but in #576 I gave in to the majority's will.

In #613 I restate the exact 3 suspects:

My top 3 scum candidates are Boonskiies, Lowell & Expedience. I would rather lynch either of the former two.

, and in In #673 I vote Lowell while pointing a finger on Expedience (again) and linking him with Lowell. The whole Boons thing from my PoV starting with him derailing the Lowell wagon as well). This was again outlined in In #674, and in In #675 I'm reasserting my town read on Toasty's slot.

In In #735 I ONCE AGAIN point out the Expedience-Lowell connection, and in In #749 I explained the Madonna mislynch and stated I was NOT going to do it again (i.e. I wasn't going to vote Sakura, clearly bc she was/is a strong town read for me).

At In #766 I point out how the D1 lynch was swiftly redirected off Lowell and unto Madonna, and in In #803 I pointed out Sakura's scummy BEHAVIOUR on the spot, but I implicitly maintained my town read on her.

Now let's inspect the suspect lists provided THEN and compare them to the NOW:

Here are the lists provided by others. Everyone has their own suspects:

Boons, Lowell & Expedience (Almost)
texcat, Lowell & chilledtea (smith)
Garmr, texcat & Lowell (chilledtea)
chilledtea, Lowell & Boons (texcat)
chilledtea, Boons & Expedience (Garmr)
Sakura, Sakaya, texcat (Expedience)
texcat, chilled, Sakura, Sakaya (Boons)

Mine is the exact same one. I lynched one and pursuing the same other 2.
Smith's 3 have changed completely and he didn't have Boons on the initial 3 and didn't vote him either <<== ALARMING
chilled lynched one, still has another, and has added a 3rd due to chilled NK.
Garmr also lynched one, still has one, and has added 2 instead of chilled.
Expedience had 3 not including either of the day lunch or the NK, and his updated list consists of 4 sharing only one name of his previous list <<== ALARMING
Boons list had chilled (flipped town), Sakura (obv!town), texcat (strong town) and Sakaya/Maestro (not a prime suspect of anyone else).

Sakura has yet to provide an updated list. Her's was "Expedicen+Boons+(Lowell?)" (from #833 or Exp/Lowell + texcat (from earlier: #808 & #809). I -of course- would count more on the most recent of the two.

In #946 I updated my read on the Sayaka/Maestro as well. That slot was no longer scum read by me (admittedly though it still is my weakest town read, and I would go there if either of Exp/Lowell flips town by some miracle).

Now if you check the "old" lists again you would see everybody had at least one of Boons/Lowell/Expedince, but neither Experdience nor Boons scum read eachother nor put Lowell in theirs.

Now check the new ones:
Expedience & Lowell (Almost)
Expedience, Garmr & Almost (smith)
Expedience, Lowell (texcat)
Expedience, Dier & Lowell (Garmr)
Garmr, Maestro, texcat & Almost (Expedience)
Expedience + Almost50 + texcat (Toasty)
Lowell, Garmr, & Almost, (Direfire)

Everybody has at least one of Expedience/Lowell but expedience doesn't have Lowell even after completely renovating his list.

All in all.. I'm begging you guys to pay more attention and connect the dots. I have other games to attend to, and I do have a life, but I do my best. We need to lynch Expedience today, and we can lash at eachother for the next 2 days with no problem. I'll let you all lynch me just for the fun of it. Or we can all vote Sakura also for the fun of it. We can lynch most everybody BUT Lowell, Maestro & smith in the next 2 days to keep it interested while the town goes into MyLo. Just please unite for this one last time.

[Almost50]

A50: Is there a reason you care about whether or not you're getting town credit?

Did I ask for such towncred? Or did you take me ISOing myself as such??

OH, I see your point. Me and my bad linguistic skills. When I said "doubt me" I meant "doubt my logic". The hole idea of the ISO was to show how I came to the conclusion Expedience & Lowell are the remaining 2 scum. I didn't mena it as a proof of my alignment (or I would've just told you all to go ISO me on your own).

[Almost50]

I'm not entirely sure why this is alarming to you; can you exp that I

1- The fact you ended up NOT voting Boon. I thought I addressed that one on the spot and told you my read on you has grown weaker.

2- The fact that Boon wasn't listed on your original 3-suspects list to begin with.

3- The fact that Lowell WAS on that list but wasn't on the updated one you provided earlier.

4- The mere fact your 3 top scum ALL changed over on night phase.

The above points COMBINED are alarming, and so is your making a fuss about it when I still hold to the Expedience + Lowell is the way to go.

[Almost50]

The

W

hole idea

[Almost50]

@Expedience:

What mistake?

@Expedience: You have yet to mention any other potential wagons you might be interested in.

Sakura, Sakaya, texcat.

[Almost50]

See the "OTHER" wagons comment.

I'm not following. Please be more specific. What is this a response for?

[Almost50]

@Exp:

Oh, ok. That one slipped me, but I remember now.

[Almost50]

So, according to the corrected lists; Exp had Garmr, Sayak(Maestro) & texcat in both his old and new scum reads, and has me in his updated one to replace Sakura in the old one.

[Almost50]

It's time for me to hit the hay. I hope by the time I come we have moved forward in some direction.

[Almost50]

We're not talking about how Boons treated you. We're talking about how you treated him though.

[Almost50]

In post 1339, Almost50 wrote:
We're not talking about how Boons treated you. We're talking about how you treated him though.


Who are you to dictate what I talk about?

Getting a little irritated, are we? Finally cracking up?? GOOD!

I OBVIOUSLY didn't "dictate" anything. I said WE are talking about something else. Absolutely nobody would have read it as an "order" except someone who already felt the heat. Thank you for proving me right.

[Almost50]

I'll be back ASAP, but tonight my internet connection is touch & go, so:

@MOD: VLA for 36 hours

[Almost50]

VOTE: Expedience

He's a much better choice that anyone else; including Hillary Clinton, and certainly better than Donald Trump

[Almost50]

I'm not sure yet. It does look compelling, and I wouldn't mind voting him, but Expedience is a priority IMHO. Then we decide who the 3rd scum is. (We only have two scum left, so it's an either/or between Lowell & Dier. I'm not too stubborn to see the possibility, despite the fact my reads on Boons and Expedience started off when they were fighting to derail the wagon on Lowell.)

[Almost50]

@Mod: I totally forgot I had declared a precautionary VLA. My internet is back and stable now, so I'm no longer on VLA

Noted and corrected.

[Almost50]

OMG, I love this game. It's like everybody has their own reads and nobody's willing to compromise. With 8 players voting the largest wagon is composed of 3 players, and this is in D3????

[Almost50]

It looks to me like he knew Boon was going down and wanted to make sure scum got something out of it by insisting on a counterclaim. Did his questioning/threatening you about your vengeful claim toDay also look towny to you?

I strongly second this.

[Almost50]

Expedience would be a good start.

[Almost50]

By the time this game ends I suspect my user name would've changed to "Over50".

[Almost50]

Actually, voting you -Expedience- IS the logical thing to do. For Garmr to "bussing" you it necessitate for you to be scum in the first place. Otherwise it's not "bussing". Yes?? Sorry, mate.

[Almost50]

That's so stupid. Nobody really does that as scum.

Which is then why it might be a good idea to do just that as wolf. Ah, the joys of WIFOM and trying to separate anti-town from wolf behavior.

PS I could plausibly see Garmr's behavior there as bussing, but that's because I kinda had a "this could be w/w" feeling about their interactions from a while ago. Anything in particular lately to suggest that this is the case, or is this a continuation of an existing "Garmr/Exp wolf team" read?

It doesn't really matter what you call them (since it's single ball) but this game actually is Mafia not WWs.

[Almost50]

Unfortunately that doesn't change a thing. With a Universal Backup flipping already we know we must have at least one other PR, and any PR claims could contradict your claim if you did claim PR yourself, so it's safer for you to just claim VT. In fact, if we were to mass claim I suspect everyone would claim VT including the Town PR(s) at this time.

[Almost50]

@Exp:

Is your keyboard broken?? What's with the "???" ??

On the former event it was suggested that Garmr was bussing you. You exclaimed as to why nit Garmr instead. I made the comment that bussing -by definition- is SCUM pushing for the lynch of their SCUM BUDDY. If someone thinks you're being bussed then they're confident you're scum still. The bussing act is usually done by the less obvious scum on the one who will probably be caught anyway, and that makes you the more obvious scum of the two (assuming Garmr is scum to begin with).

On the second I'm letting you know VT is the one and only "safe" claim for scum at this point. With a JK flipping already you probably can't claim Cop or Tracker (for instance). You don't know if there's a Gunsmith though, and you can't risk claiming a protective lest you get counter claimed. We do know there IS at least one PR alive because we had a Universal Backup flip too. Any "blind" claim of a PR might get you caught, so a VT is your safest option. You can even change that later and say you fake claimed to protect your role.

It thus becomes of no value that you claimed a VT. It doesn't prove or even hint you're town-aligned (unless you can prove it. Now how does one ever prove being a VT??)

[Almost50]

And to elaborate: If we were to mass claim right now.. BOTH SCUM will claim VTs. VTs will -of course- claim VTs, and even PRs will still claim VTs to protect their roles. Result: We have 10 VTs alive with no scum and no PRs. The Mod is just messing with us!!

[Almost50]

With TWO people replacing out I very much doubt we're getting a lynch.

[Almost50]

FTR: I'm getting NK'd tonight, bc of something I found out.

I very much suspect SMITH could be scum in this game

. Please save this statement for reference in case I do get NK'd. (If not, I will probably prove it.)

[Almost50]

I just found out. I didn't have that info before.

[Almost50]

I replaced Maestro and I KNOW you are town (based on what I've seen) so that should put your mind at ease.

You mean to tell me he plays the exact same way as town too???

[Almost50]

Also, since I like making a vote right at the beginning (hoping luck holds) fate decides Toastytoast is looking scummy. Evidence to follow...
VOTE:ToastyToast

Oh, no! Not again!!

At least, please DO have reasons this time around.