Mini Normal 1775 END!

[Sakura Hana]

370 was directed at boon
372 was directed at everyone

[Boonskiies]

I didn't like texcat's sheeping of me.

[Sakura Hana]

353 was against the A50 vote

That's the one, it may not be a super huge town case, but cases dont necessarily need to be like 5 paragraph's long. I showed why he wasn't scum and if he was he would be found out later anyway, but why his current attitude was bleeding town everywhere.

[Sakura Hana]

Also wtf is even this:

@Sakura - I made my points; you made yours. What else is there to say about it now.

If you really think A50 is scum, why would you just dismiss my town case on him? Why not go through my points and re-evaluate or refute them? Do you not want to convince ppl to lynch him?

[mhsmith0]

@SH: Yeah, 353 (along with A50's own posts) helped convince me my vote shouldn't be on that slot (and the Lowell/CT convinced me that my vote needed to be on one of their slots instead). Fuller re-read of A50 to come at some point, but I feel like Lowell and CT are the priority items. I wanted to make sure you weren't saying you'd had a town case against the Lowell vote, because that would have been jarring.

wrt 372: none of those three have really been posting enough to leave a strong impression. IMO good reason not to want to end D1 early. Not (IMO) good reason to think that Lowell is the wrong wagon. That said, from the limited data so far:

Expedience - I like what he's been doing. I feel like I can understand his thought process and it seems genuine. He's pushing on people, he doesn't seem lazy or BS'ing, etc. Town lean, limited by "it's early D1 and he hasn't really posted all that much yet"

Sayaka - not quite as sure for her. She has opinions and isn't afraid to share them, and I feel like she's sharing enough of her thought process that I can eventually sort her (not there yet though). I'm curious what she thinks of Lowell after his more recent BS, as well as everything else that has happened since she was last here.

Texcat - her posts feel... light. On content, on meaning, on depth. Her 255 basically made the same argument as I later did in 326 but without really getting into WHY A50's bandwagon-hopping seemed like a problem. I also really don't get her 265. Reason #1 is posted along with an "oh wait nevermind", and reason #2 seems quickly contradicted by 275. And the whole thing was "lol jk" by 314. Nothing even close to a smoking gun here IMO, but I also see nothing particularly confidence building and I don't mind more pressure on this slot.

PS I'm also not sure why 271 is true. Obviously if you tunnel someone for a really long period of time ignoring everything else, that can be problematic, but I'd like to think that tunneling in reasonable quantities can be a good thing. Invest in a case, build it, see where it takes you, and get to a point where you have a more meaningful read, and everyone else has the data they need. Why am I wrong?

PPS Boon is moving down my list from his last few posts. I'm not happy with him right now.

[Lowell]

VOTE: texcat

No one wants to be first? Sure, I'll be your huckleberry.

[texcat]

Sakura, I think you are confusing town unity with scum jumping on convenient wagons. I see a lot of people saying that they are voting for reactions, but I don't see anyone talking about what the reactions actually told them. One of the reactions that I look for is to see who is willing to jump on any wagon. I think that's a scum trait. And A50 has jumped, although I think ChilledTea may have just exceeded him in number of jumps back and forth.

[Sakura Hana]

152 A50 called my Lowell vote a good vote, this implies he has a scum read there or supports the wagon.
160 A50 asked CT to vote Lowell the larger wagon of his 2 suspects
162 A50 jumps into it himself.

What am I missing in this progression texcat?

[texcat]

It looks to me like he joined the wagon in 162, just to join the wagon. He never explains that he thinks Lowell is scum, he just wants a big wagon for the pressure. I don't think randomly applying pressure is a town trait. Nor do I think it builds town unity.

[Sakura Hana]

Funnily enough tho both CT and

Lowell

* have jumped on a higher number of wagons, in addition Sayaka wasnt really a wagon when A50 voted her iirc.

A50's vote progression:
Himself > Knightmare > Sayaka > Lowell

CT's vote progression:
Knightmare > Sayaka > Madonna > Lowell > Smith > Lowell

Lowell's vote progression:
Garmr > Knightmare > Smith > Texcat

Why does the ammount of vote change matters?
How do you feel about Lowell voting you right after smith presents some suspicion on you?
A50 has expressed clear reads, he's obviously not voting anything that moves, otherwise i'd agree with you, any comments on A50's reads?
What are YOUR reads?

* After checking ISOs Lowell has changed votes as many times as A50.

[Sakura Hana]

It looks to me like he joined the wagon in 162, just to join the wagon. He never explains that he thinks Lowell is scum, he just wants a big wagon for the pressure. I don't think randomly applying pressure is a town trait. Nor do I think it builds town unity.

So you call good votes on ppl when you dont scumread them?
I don't think he was "randomly" applying pressure, look at his ISO again.

[chilledtea]

Spoiler:

...And wagons on newbs are fun, anyway.
...
so I'm moving to an easier, hopefully more hilarious, target.

Serious vote or joke/reaction test? I'm assuming the latter for now. I dislike playing games with votes but whatever.

This guy needs some votes. Even when I specifically vote him on page whatever this is, he's all "oh, me? are you being serious? Is this just a joke? oh gosh, I don't know."

Stop asking questions: vote mhsmith. I promise it'll get hilarious as we get close to lynch. I can tell he's the type.

What the heck? Stop asking questions and just vote? deadline is in a little less than 2 weeks, why would we rush a lynch when there's still lots of discussion to be had, for instance, the lack of your explanation for anything?

There's always someone who gets needlessly peeved about this. For every "oops quick lynch" I've seen about a dozen "no let's wait no let's wait no let's wait OOPS OUT OF TIME KILL SOMEONE RANDOM QUICK." So how about you address the point I made instead of polishing your mock incredulation act.

What do you think of Sakura, Lowell? You're not weirded out at all by her backing off of knightmare?

Yes, I'm VERY worried about it. There's nothing I like less than when a wagon forms, gets close, and then people just start to weasel themselves out of it without any good reason other than "it's too early" or "I want to keep looking" or whatever. Again, this game shouldn't just be pissing around waiting until deadline and then panic-lynching. sakura is probably scum.

Oh man.

Boon is scum, lowell is prob scum and madonna is prob scum too. Although madonna is a slight read.

Can we just decide on one of these. I would go for boon though.

Sounds pseudo-Lowell.

Yeah this guy wishes. Though in possibly related news, this guy gives me townvibes.

Anyway, smith, sakura, and knight. Game over, let's all go home.

According to this post, Lowel's scumreads are sakura, knight, smith.
Texcat hasn't said anything from 314 till recently after Lowel's vote. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

Lowell what made you change your mind regarding your scum reads? What made texcat suddenly scummy?

[texcat]

CT does appear to be voting anything that moves, and I could easily move my vote there. (I think I mentioned that above.) The amount of vote changes is not the problem. It's the bandwagoning that I object to.
A50's reads. I see his list. Not much there to comment on. He doesn't really explain why anyone is where they are on his list. In 152 he says good vote, bad vote, but doesn't comment any further. His only votes have been pressure to sort people out.

[Boonskiies]

Lowell, stop being scummy. I want to know you are the easy fall guy, I really do.

@mhs - idk what y'all want me to do. I'm looking for stuff! I got tunneled onto Almost out of rage. I'm saying my thoughts about the game every time something pops out to me.

[texcat]

It looks to me like he joined the wagon in 162, just to join the wagon. He never explains that he thinks Lowell is scum, he just wants a big wagon for the pressure. I don't think randomly applying pressure is a town trait. Nor do I think it builds town unity.

So you call good votes on ppl when you dont scumread them?
I don't think he was "randomly" applying pressure, look at his ISO again.

I certainly don't, but it looks to me like A50 does. Did he ever say why he thought Lowell might be scum? I don't think he said that Lowell was scum at all until his reads post at 313 and then doesn't explain it. Perhaps it's not "random", but it's hard to tell from here.

[mhsmith0]

@Boon: give me a reason to doubt the Lowell lynch. "Bad feelings" isn't doing it for me. Is there scum on this wagon? Are a bunch of townies just wrong? Convince me (or everyone else) if you're feeling really bad about the lynch. If it's helpful, current voters are (I think):

Garmr, knightmare, Almost50, chilledtea, mhsmith0

and Sakura Hana was on for a while and is now back off.

That's six people who are really down on Lowell. Maybe one of us is BS'ing a weak or insincere case? Is there a "you look sincere but here's why your reasons are wrong" case to be made? I don't need you to tell me right this second; if it takes some time for you to figure it out that's fine. But "bad feelings" is not an acceptable answer for me. Too much room for scum to sneak their way out of a wagon they know is bad, or to try and derail a wagon they know is good, without really having to commit to putting any rationale down.

[mhsmith0]

Trying to intellectually deal with Lowell as non mafia... I'm just really struggling to see it. Maybe he's a jester and actively trying to get lynched? Does that make any sense here?

[knightmare]

I don't really know the standard here for this board but when I see "normal" I think of a fairly vanilla game. There is probably 3 Mafia, low chance of 3rd party, and likely not many PRs for either team.

So no, I doubt jester is a possibility.

As I said earlier I would entertain wagoning Madonna or Texcat as well.

[Sakura Hana]

After reviewing, yeah im going back on Lowell
VOTE: Lowell

As for your questions about Jester, Jester is considered "Bastard" no Normal game has Bastard roles, and only a few theme games have Bastard roles and are advertised as such.

[Almost50]

yeah, because it's dumb. honestly no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that."

How do you know who believes and who doesn't? And are you saying ALL players voting you are just trying to avoid getting lynched themselves??

[Almost50]

Looks like he's been here since 2006, too, so it's not just like...easily caught out due to inexperience.

SO you acknowledge Lowell is a VERY experienced player, yet you believe him to be "the fall guy" who would get lynched often on D1 for no reason??

[mhsmith0]

@knight/Sakura: I suspected as much but wasn't sure. Myths for clarification.

@lowell: you're at l-1. Time to mount a SERIOUS defense against your charges. No more hand waving bullshit.

[Almost50]

I didn't like texcat's sheeping of me.

VOTE: texcat

No one wants to be first? Sure, I'll be your huckleberry.

I'll be damned if these two are not scum partners. This is darn too obvious. At least try to make it subtle. Feels like a deja vu from OPEN 626 with a Voided-Karnage-Titus scum trio.

[Madonna]

Hi. Can the Lowell voters share their cases again? There are a lot of pages and a lot of nonsense, and it would be nice to cut away the chaff.

[Madonna]

I thought bad vibes were excuse enough to stop a knightmare lynch, so why do they not work with a Lowell lynch?

If people are going to be so fervent in their idea that Lowell is scum, I would like a hammer to help us be clear where players want to stand.