Open 30 - Fire and Ice (Game Over!) - before 470

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay, doing a quick skim / read and will make a substancial post within the next, say.. 2 hours?

[LoudmouthLee]

Word on the street has it that Glork has a firm and smooth butt.

IGMEOY: Glork's butt

Everyone voting for Glork is highly suspect. I mean, look at those magnificent buns!

Vote: xyzzy

This bothers me... especially when, on page 3, you say this:

Oy Glork, who should we lynch?

So.. there hasn't been a night. There is no masonry in this game.. and you've already made *2* references to Glork's innocence. Do you know something that I magically do not?

Next points....

unvote, vote autumn evenings

I'm still a subscriber to the "Third vote on the bandwagon is scum" tell a-la-Jeep... Sue me if you don't agree. You didn't post any rationale. None at all. When pressed, you give the weak response of:

(After a double check, MBL had already moved his vote and Stewie was #2 (but could have been #3) and CtD was #3 (could have been #4). This fits my thoughts perfectly.)

Stewie, care to elaborate?

Trying to get a reaction; didn't get it.

That's really weak, Stewie. Just my opinion, especially I believe (I could be wrong) that's a really weak reason to put a 3rd vote on someone. But CtD's next move absolutely BAFFLES me...

Unvote, Vote: AutumnEvenings

How's that for a reaction?

I absolutely do NOT understand this move. Stewie was looking for AE's reaction, and then, you vote her as well for even LESS of a reason that Stewie voted her!

No reason not to finish off Xyzzy now.

Mert, Sefer, and Crub are prolly the other three scums. We should definitely lynch all of them today.

It absolutely bothes me when we disagree so fevereshly.

Vote: CtD

FoS: Stewie

IGMEOY: Glork

Glork didn't do anything wrong in particular, but just looking at CtD's relationship with Glork makes me wish to look at Glork a little closer.

[LoudmouthLee]

Here's a question for Glork:
How come it took LML to comment for you to take note of my "buddy-up tactics"?

That question is seconded.

The first reference was to Glork's butt, and nothing else. It's called random voting.

Sorry, but I believe we had this conversation before, CtD...

*METAGAME TIME*

When someone plays as scum, they sometimes say things out loud that they do not mean to say. For instance, a scum member would say out loud that they need mod clarification of their role.

I feel very strongly about this following tell, especially when the previous quote was placed in front of CtD....

Everyone voting for Glork is highly suspect.

As for Stewie...

1. You yourself said later that it was actually the second vote, so I can't understand why you didn't delete it and start again, abandoning that point. It's not as if it was a simulpost, and I would have been the third but MBL beat me with the unvote, so it was the second. There were hours between his unvote and my vote.

2. Ok, next time I'll vote and then I'll say "I'm voting for you because I want to see if I get a reaction" and see if that works.

3. There wasn't much going on, and I wanted to get the game going. A reaction vote seemed like a good idea.

#1) The point still stood. It wasn't that you were exactly the third vote, but you were the third person to vote for AE. Once a person votes for someone, they do not have the same hesitation to vote for them again. I can only speak for myself. Once a case has been made that I agree with, I am more apt to vote for that person, whether or not my vote is currently there.

#2 and #3) So.. you prefer the "Reaction Vote" over the "Make a Case" idea. Very interesting. Sometimes, the cases overanalyze... But I feel much more comfortable making a case and seeing how they respond to allegations rather than a simple vote.

@CtD: Talk me into voting Glork over you. I will be on a massive campaign to lynch one of the both of you. I'm feeling Stewie, too... but.. c'est la vie. I feel less strongly on him than the both of you.

[LoudmouthLee]

You may not be inclined to believe me, but I was about as deliberate as I could get when I posted my first post of the game. I had formulated it pretty much verbatim before I even got my role, just based on the fact that the game had Glork in it, and I <3 him, and I wanted to see his reaction. I was actually considering waiting on posting because he only had one vote at the time, but figured it was enough for the joke to work.

I heart quite a few people in this game, yourself included, but that doesn't change the fact that you have, twice, buddied up to Glork through various methods. You can tell me that you've had that post formulated for numerous days, but the truth of the matter is that i can only go with what's in front of me.

I'm dully unimpressed with the Xyzzy wagon. Can someone summarize it besides we're "Lynching Uncle Xyzzy because he's Uncle Xyzzy"?

And, CtD, you are not being underestimated. Even the best players (and I consider you one of them) are capable of making severe D1 slips. Especially in the Random Voting part of the game, where Scum tend to make their worst mistakes...

I know the town could lynch others, especially couples with the fact that we have so precious little time left in D1, but unless someone could give me anything remotely solid (read: as solid as my case in CtD) I have no reason to change my vote and I implore the rest of the town to look at CtD or Glork here.

[LoudmouthLee]

Some time has gone by
People have made a few votes
I arrive to count them

Official Vote Count #5.

xyzzy[2] (Mert, Sefer)
AutumnEvenings{AE}[2] (Stewie, CTD)
PBuG[2] (Wizardcat, AE)
Crub[2] (MBL, Glork)
CTD[1] (LML)
Sefer[1] (xyzzy)
Glork[1] (Crub)


Not Voting[1] (Vendagoat)

With 12 alive, It will take 7 to Lynch.

---

Notes:

Deadline in ~60 hours

. At deadline, 4 votes will be required to lynch. First come, first serve, in case of a tie.

For the above vote count, I was a nice guy. A great guy, even. You all love me even more.

From now on, though, I

will not

count new votes that are presented without an unvote, much preferably in the format I specified. You have been warned.

EDIT

(as no one had posted after me yet):

mneme replaces in for Wizardcat, who requested replacement, effective immediately! Thanks mneme, and welcome!

@Mod,

please change PBug's name with mine.

Just replaced in. I've re-read, but I'm still not really feeling my feet.

That said, I understand we're under a deadline, so vote: crub

Looking at the vote count, there are 3 players with 2 votes or more. Why Crub over AE, Myself (as PBug) or Xyzzy?

[LoudmouthLee]

when you two get called on it. Now while crub has been acting "strangely". why the flop after LDL calls you guys on it. I'm just having trouble here is all.

I'm going to assume you meant LML (not LDL) and I agree with you entirely.

[LoudmouthLee]

Seriously. Anybody who honestly thinks that CTD and I are scum together is a complete moron.

Dude. WIFOM.

I have seen two excellent scum run a similar gambit on the GL. They were all buddy buddy, and when one turned up to be scum, I said there was "no way they'd be that obvious..."

I have learned to take actions at face value. I call it as I see it. I am unsure that BOTH of you are scum... but I feel that 1 of you *probably* is.

[LoudmouthLee]

Unvote: CtD. Vote: Glork

[LoudmouthLee]

Just replaced in. I've re-read, but I'm still not really feeling my feet.

That said, I understand we're under a deadline, so

vote: crub

@Mod - Mneme came into the game and made this vote

[LoudmouthLee]

I would also like LmL to answer my question as to why he thinks CTD's buddying implicates me. I'm waiting, Lee

It's not that.. it's a bunch of things that rub me wrongly... as a short list..

And by the way, LmL, I certainly don't think I would qualify as "excellent scum." I'd say that I've only recently broken the threshold of "decent scum." Also, as aggressive as I am when pro-town, my internal tactics are far more conservative as scum.

How strikingly odd, since agressive Glork would have called CtD on his buddying. Yet, you "didn't magically notice it."

Meh. I am in no danger of being lynched.

Well, now you are. People tend to use the power of suggestion... "I'm telling you that I'm in no danger of being lynched, so the weaker players won't even bother voting me." It makes me want to fight for you lynch harder...

A question for you, LmL: What, from my end, makes you believe that I am CTD's scumbuddy? Why do you feel that his posting could be indicative of scumbuddies rather than, as I suggested earlier, a simple buddy-up tactic?

Well... I dont know if you guys are together, but the more and more I listen to you., the more and more sure I am that you (and / or CtD) is/are scum.

Actually, Unvote, Vote: Crub... there really isn't a heck of a lot to go on, but I think that CTD could serve to be useful one way or another, regardless of his alignment.

If there's ANY reason why I would think you and CtD are linked, is the quote that I just gave you. You cast a vote on Crub for NO reason besides the fact that you want to keep CtD around.

You gave no reasoning for Crub (and he already had votes on him). It looked opportunistic and... well.. scummy.

I stand by my vote.

[LoudmouthLee]

I would like to see significantly more input from several players, including (but not limited to) AE, MBL, Sefer, and Xyzzy. Guarantee that at least one undercontributer is scum... distinctly possibly two of them

I take issue with this too, Glork. Without Metagaming you WAY too much, it is fairly known that AE is without access for a few more days. It's even been SAID in the thread. How can you get blood from a stone?

Or is it the fact that AE also has vbotes and you're trying to throw some more suspicion on her?

@Mod:

Generally, when a replacement comes into a game, they are not responsible for the other person's vote. Was Meneme's vote not counted because of Wizard's previous vote?

[LoudmouthLee]

I didn't "magically" not notice it. I get "HAY, LET'S FOLLOW GLORK" alarmingly often because people expect me to "magically" find scum out of nothing. When I first saw CTD's post, I figured it was mostly a joke, so I responded with a post that was mostly a joke. The possibility of buddying-up honestly didn't even cross my mind until you mentioned it. I can't offer any further explanation than that. Either you'll choose to believe me or you will not.

So.. CtD, a "strong" player, wouldn't make you do a double take when he says "HAY! LETS FOLLOW GLORK!"

Look, I remember having the Paragon title. It's NO blessing, but it doesn't excuse you from making scummy moves such as BLATANTLY IGNORING a possible buddy-up. I think it sort-of implicates the both of you. I would love to lynch you BOTH today.

[LoudmouthLee]

Also, to say that I "blatantly ignored" it is inaccurate. That implies intentional nonobservation. I merely failed to notice it, a purely accidental occurrence.

Well, as you said.. I'd eather buy it or not. I don't buy it.

[LoudmouthLee]

What's the evidence that CtD's "who should we lynch today, glork" was buddying up rather than asking for an opinion?

The fact that it's done on two separate times... and ignored twice

[LoudmouthLee]

unvote, vote: LML

for overly strident and disproportionate attack on CTD. I smell gamesmanship.

I will definitely be back before deadline.

Check your nose. When have you ever known me to not be stident and disproportionate?

[LoudmouthLee]

Check your nose. When have you ever known me to not be stident and disproportionate?

I've never played a full game with you. I have seen you be strident, but I do feel you took a stab at cooking a case on CTD there. Perhaps ok fodder for D1 conversation, but it felt like you were willing to follow through on it.

So Glork's more likely to be scum than CTD now?

Good morning. Nice that you've arrived. Some tea, perhaps?

Looking at CtD's and Glork's reactions (my case on Glork is heavily documented), I like the Glork lynch paramount today.

[LoudmouthLee]

Anybody care to take me up on that offer?

Sure.. especially I now believe that one of them is your partner.

Who are you trying to bus, Glorkie?

[LoudmouthLee]

And, a note, LmL: I am

SEVERELY

disappointed in your play so far. You concocted this idea that I'm scum based on your own chosen interpretation of my play, completely choosing to ignore/disbelieve the truth. I'd really expected you to be open to the possibility that I just didn't think about CTD's posting as being buddying. I haven't yet decided if your chosen interpretations are scummy, or just an indication that you're playing poorly this time around, but there is *SO MUCH GOOD INFO* all over the place, and you've just tunnelled on me. Bad LmL. You should be more observant.

FoS/IGMEOY: LML

. Everyone, keep a very scrutinizing eye on this guy. He could very well be scum, too. LML, if you

are

town, hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call.

First off, stop being condescending. I play my game my way. Instead, if you're really the doctor, you played in such a way that you GARNERED suspicion. My case on you was a good one. In other words, if someone ELSE would have made that case, I would have jumped on it. It was a strong case. You were the one playing poorly, not me.

PLUS, I'm half here, thinking that you're trying to DRAG out the doc to get them killed. I still think you're scum, Glork. Honestly and truthfully. We'll see how it goes, huh?

But, since I currently cannot substanciate my gut feeling, I will

Unvote, Vote: MBL

for in a matter of 12 hours, voting for me, then voting for Glork... two separate sides of the argument, when basically no other information was presented to the town. I think, *if* Glork is town, MBL was looking for the wagon with better legs between me and Glork. Saw that it wasn't me... and wen't to switch to the Glorkwagon.

[LoudmouthLee]

Edit: This is even though MBL swiched in the past 12 hours from LML --> Glork --> Xyzzy

[LoudmouthLee]

By the way...any special reason your focusing on my wagon, as opposed to XYZ's? 'Cause even if you're scum, you have no way of knowing my allignment (pro-town, by the way :p)...so your focus on my wagon seems very odd.

Your wagon was completely baseless, and I'm not sold on your allignment either way. Couple that with the fact that you were away (and you let everyone KNOW that you were away...) It seemed dangeous.

The Xyzzy wagon at least had *something* to it. I didn't agree... but it had *something*.

People were looking for reactions on you, didn't get it, and LEFT their votes on you. It just strikes me as completely odd.

[LoudmouthLee]

Well I'm stumped.

FoS: Vendagoat

I hate people who say their stumped. It gives them an "out" if their wrong.

[LoudmouthLee]

Loudmouth, unhand me you cad. I'm town. (Duh)

You're jumpy..

[LoudmouthLee]

Well I'm stumped.

FoS: Vendagoat

I hate people who say their stumped. It gives them an "out" if their wrong.

what and not vote and get fosed for being an indecisive jerk?

my choices. leave my vote on a claimed doc-bad
lurk-bad
just not vote-bad
vote with a reason-just less bad.
the name of the game is mafia bud, everything sucks.

Right.. but by you posting "I'm stumped" and letting everyone KNOW that you're stumped is much different that actually being stumped.

Everyone in the town is stumped in some way.. otherwise there's no game. But the incessant need to REMIND us that you're stumped... bothers me.

I'd be for a possible vote switch to the Goat.

[LoudmouthLee]

You're jumpy..

Why shouldn't town be jumpy? If you kill one off, it'll most likely be four scum, five town remaining tomorrow morning, with no opportunity for cross-kills.

But a high opportunity for missed kills.

The scum will have all intents and purposes to handing over scum to the town. Since they cannot NK each other, the scum HAS NO CHOICE but to help us.

[LoudmouthLee]

See? I kinda like grilled goat.

I'd really like Grilled Glork better, but....

Unvote, Vote: Vendagoat

[LoudmouthLee]

Ugh, AE, you're missing my point entirely. I

DON'T

think he's scummy enough to lynch. I think that the cases against Crub, MBL, and even Vendagoat are better, and I think that the cases against LmL and Sefer are equally strong. There isn't enough compelling evidence to say "I think CTD is scum and I want him lynched."

There's ANY case against me?

[LoudmouthLee]

See? I kinda like grilled goat.

I'd really like Grilled Glork better, but....

Unvote, Vote: Vendagoat

This vote can change back to MBL to assure a lynch today.

Where is everyone?

[LoudmouthLee]

I believe xyzzy has 4. You wouldn't need to switch to me to guarantee a lynch, But more importantly, you should nail scum, not rush for a convenient lynch.

MBL, Your jumpiness is rather discerning, but I like a Goat lynch and (surprisingly) a Glork lynch BETTER than a vote on you.

I still feel that an Xyzzy lynch is illplaced.

[LoudmouthLee]

Did I vote you right now? Do I have my vote on you? No.

You are still scummy to me.

I'm walking away from this game right now. I have more important things to do.

I'll keep my vote on Goat until end day. I recommend others follow suit.

[LoudmouthLee]

So, Glork... talk to us.

Who did you protect, Sirrah Glork? Why aren't you dead?

Unless the mafia targeted you, of course, and you're in the opposite faction. Makes for high drama, eh?

FoS: Glork

for.. well.. not dying.

[LoudmouthLee]

You all assumed I voted Glork. I didn't. Things just don't sit well with me. If you aren't a LITTLE bit paranoid about Glork being alive and Mafia, then you aren't a townie. Bottom line.

Glork. You would be doing the same exact thing that I would be doing if you were in my shoes. You claim doctor after you play the scummiest D1 I have ever seen you play. You may have been scum to get the real doctor to come out, but the real doctor saw through your ploy... I'm unsure. I am not the doc. But, still, Glork... I don't think you are either.

I am not going to lynch a claimed Doc. There is NO reason to. I would be remiss, however, if I did not show my worries about you. They need to be well documented.

FOS: LML. It's obvious why the scum didn't target glork -- he's too obvious a target for both, and if both target him, they both lose their kills. Optimal play is to trick the town into lynching our doc (fat chance), or a random kill of glork vs someone else -- with a < 50% chance of hitting glork to reduce the chance of kill nullification. Regardless, we have -plenty- of time to worry about Glork as doctor -- since even if he is scum, he gives us a garunteed scum lynch later in the game via a counterclaim -- when the time is right, the "real" doctor can counterclaim, and we can lynch both in whatever order makes sense until we get a scum.

:eyeroll:

So, you're telling me that NEITHER group NKed Glork because we'd mislynch him? That the Mafia isn't worried?

I disagree. And for someone who reads so "closely", read the rules. You need to unvote in order to change your vote.

***METAGAME TIME***

Finally,

FoS: AutumnEvenings

. She seems to have garnered much attention today. It fits into Glork's elephant puzzle that one of the scum is trying to get us to lynch AE. She may be Ice Mafia and was targeted last night. This also fits the fact that from what I have seen, AE is a fairly typical N1 kill. She's eloquent and dangerous. With the opening FoS's levvied on her, I believe that she could be ice mafia and the one of her earlier FoSers could be Fire Mafia. Just musing out loud here, but it's been noted in my handy-dandy notebook.

[LoudmouthLee]

Talking about underestimating someone's play...

I'd put myself out there to say that if I was scvum? Scum is careful. I am agressive and trying in a reckless pursuit of the truth. Read my last post again. Tell me that you do not see that.

[LoudmouthLee]

LML: I'm not going to go down the WIFoM road of "it might not be a tell because you're too good". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I've caught very good players in common tells before, and I'm sure it will happen again.

That said, you weren't the only one to comment on this. In fact, the other person (after you, though), was...surprise! Vendagoat! Again! He just keeps looking better and better.

Make a case against the Goat. Make a case against me. I pushed for Glork's lynch yesterday. He was scummy.

I metagame. I do it very wonderfully. This game NEEDS metagaming, as the setup BEGS for it. Metagaming in this way is more apropos than not.

Mneme, I want you to make a case against ANYONE. I don't care if it's Osama Bin Laden.

[LoudmouthLee]

Glork protected me last night, by the way, duh. I was mercilessly run up to lynchable, and in a nonsensical manner, and Glork theorized that's likely to mean scum from both teams were on me. If I was fire scum who lynched my partner the way xyzzy went down, I should be shot for sedition. Fire scum was likely to target me as possible Ice for nailing their partner, but it was a terrible choice considering I was a likely doc protect. Ice is obviously craftier scum, going after a player who was unlikely to be protected. Ice is going to let town do the dirty work for them and hope to outlast us.

The good news is, there are lots of good scumhunters on the job, and I predict this game will end well.

I spit up my coffee reading this post.

[LoudmouthLee]

All right. First, so that Vendagoat stops saying the entire case on him is based on "feeling", allow me to articulate why his Day One play made him look like partners with XYZ.

Here's a chronology:
1) Crub random-votes XYZ (#11)
2) I random-vote XYZ (#18)
3) Mert "bandwagon" votes XYZ (#19)
4) Vendagoat says "wow, lots ot hate for XYZ" (#23)
5) XYZ (joke?) FoS's Vendagoat (#24)

That was the initial thing. It felt like Vendagoat was trying to derail the bandwagon in a subtle way (his post is a joke, check it out), and XYZ responded to that by FoSing him because goats are bad, which looks like a partner saying "don't be stupid".

So jokes are scumtells now?

Vendagoat then makes lots of "oh, he might be scum, might not be" non-commital comments (often accompanied by FoS's) regarding XYZ (e.g. #42, #62, #73, #165).

And then it comes down to deadline, and it looks like it's between XYZ and MBL. Venadagoat votes MBL. Now, I don't know about you guys, but when I FoS someone three times, and someone else zero times, I'd probably vote for the person I'd found suspicious, not the one with "the condescending attitude". But then again, I'm not Vendagoat and I'm not XYZ's scum-buddy.

You've been riding me from day one and since you got lucky on day one you are attempting to railroad me for day two. Fine.

---------------
So that points to partnership yesterday. In addition, Vendagoat has acted scumy indepedently of XYZ. He's been wishy-washy, extremely OMGUS-y, hasn't made actual attempts at scumhunting, prefering to follow the crowd or else OMGUS, doesn't respond to (what I happen to think are) valid responses to his posts (see, e.g. my post 221), distorts posts and arguments, accused me of claiming something when I was doing no such thing (and of course didn't respond when I pointed that out), and is now trying to play the newbie card despite having more than 3 months' experience at mafiascum.

vote: Vendagoat

Let it be known that I have played

2

whole games. One being lynched on day one and the other resulted in a town win.


And post 31 is were you accuse me of being XYZ's scum buddy. Wow, either you have some form of esp, or you were just setting up a kill for today.

Look I've started a case on you because you used the term "feeling" and now after seeing how you have justified it, you have given away you had some form of knowledge. You knew XyZ was scum and now you know I am scum.

How can you make such allegations unless you have knowledge of the scum pairings. Which means, your scum. Now the question lies, are you ice or fire?

Jokes are scumtells. They truly are. EmpTyger has the most famous one for Les Mis Mafia back in 2005. He, on april fools day, claimed that he was mafia. Meme and I spearheaded a lynch on him. His defense? "It was a JOKE!"

Emptyger was scum. Hence his "It's a JOKE!" title.

MBL's joke was hysterical, but I wrote down in my notebook that he's possible scum BECAUSE of it. I dont think he and xyz are on the same squad, but I think MBL is ice mafia.

I would rather find the last fire mafia first, though. and, I would be happy lynching MBL is we cant draw a correlation.

As of right now, I'm thinking a MBL / AE Ice mafia and a Goat / XYZ Fire Mafia. AE is the biggest "guess" of the bunch currently.

MBL made sure to say that the Ice Mafia was craftier in his joke mafia. MBL probably also likes to look at himself naked in the mirror breathing "I am a rock star."

Stroke it, MBL.

Vote: Goat

, who I think is the last Fire Mafia, surprisingly, for reasons AE has started.

Major FoS: MBL

for being, for all intents and purposes, #1 on my scum list. Possibly even higher than Goat. But, not the play right now.

[LoudmouthLee]

Whoa. I'm #5 (cross posting). That makes goat at -1. I dont think I want to move my vote, though. Just alerting the masses.

[LoudmouthLee]

STOP STOP STOP.

Those are 2 VERY quick votes, and should be unvoted. With Glork dead, and someone (I need to find out who, and will on reread) told Glork to NOT give his protection.

Now, we have a situation. We will NEVER know if AE was protected by Glork. So, Vendagoat could very easily just have attacked the protected AE. I'm rereading, and will post again after I find the said post.

I repeat, with these 2 votes out of the gate, DO NOT QUICKLYNCH AE

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm not sure whether I want to know who Glork protected. Obviously, the Fire mafia does -- they missed their kill, so they want to know whether they found Ice last night (lynch!) had bad luck and crossed with a protect. And in a way, the town's interest coincides with theirs -- if they found Ice, we do want to lynch them (Ice, that is), whereas if they targeted whoever Glork protected, we probably don't.

...and it just so happens to be one the people who, out of the gate, voted AE.

How very interesting.

Vote: Mneme

[LoudmouthLee]

(Triple Post! Sorry!)

We're in a curious perdicament. We have lynched correctly twice in a row. Now, if we lynch incorrently twice in a row, WE LOSE. (6 townies, 2 scum). We have played VERY well and all we are right now is one townie better than the WORST POSSIBLE NEWBIE SETUP.

We need to be very careful here. I feel that these "quick two votes" by Stewie and Mneme are indicative to their inability to read the situation properly.

We're NOT in good shape here.

In addition to my vote on Mneme before, I want to add an

FoS: Stewie

[LoudmouthLee]

Autumn is by far our most likely scum.

mFOS: Lee for protecting

. It's possible that Glork protected her, but can we afford to take that chance?

I think we should analyze the likelihood that she was protected and move forward from there.

I metagame. This is strictly a metagame logistical jump.

[LoudmouthLee]

Edit by way of post:

And also, MrBuddyLee, if he was telling the truth about targeting me, why did he claim to have targeted me

in the same post where he self-hammered

, thus denying Glork the opportunity to say who he'd protected?

Well.. this doesn't make sense, AE.

I am nearly positive that VendaGoat tried to kill you. Now, the question is.. are you scum or doc protected?

I wanted to have Glork TELL us that, but Mneme (as quoted earlier) said we shouldn't give Glork that opportunity, as it would help the scum.

@Mneme: What says you now?

[LoudmouthLee]

Venda voted AE out of the gate and never let up. He targeted her, and therein lies the debate. Was AE protected? I am 75% Protection. That *does not* mean that she's not scum. She could be BOTH:

P = AE was Protected
Q = AE is Scum
R = AE was targeted and Not Killed

This makes the logical statement R -> [P v Q] (If R then P or Q) inherently true if she was targeted. As a logical jump, looking at Venda's voting pattern, AE was targeted. Lets keep in mind that in any logistical disjunction, the or does not renounce the fact that P AND Q [P A Q] may be true as well.

What I'm saying is, I believe, based on Glork's play, that AE was a very likely protection, and a moreso likely Doc Protect. Is it still possible that AE is scum.

Yes.

Do I think we need to look elsewhere today?

Yes.

I am still warily suspicious of you, MBL.

[LoudmouthLee]

Question to everyone: if you were the doc, who would you have protected N1?

Objection.

Why does this matter, your honor?

Major FoS: MBL

[LoudmouthLee]

My suspicions were verbalized about AE for, in my opinion, being a good choice for a nightkill, and with no deaths, making the logical leap that she was either doc protected or scum.

Basically, my fears of AE were realized when Goat self-destructed and said that he, as fire mafia, targeted AE.

Granted, it was bad form by goat, but it made my metagame read legit. Goat's chances of winning when he was lynched was 0. This makes me believe (metagaming again) that Goat was being vindictive towards AE and probably not lying.

That being said, I now believe that Glork protected AE. That

does not

mean that AE is innocent.

Right now, if I had to make a list of people I thought were scum, it would me Mneme, MBL, Stewie and AE being 4th. In other words, I understand AE being a

necessary lynch

at some point... but I do not see her being a necessary lynch

today.

My vote stays on Mneme.

[LoudmouthLee]

I understand AE being a

necessary lynch

at some point... but I do not see her being a necessary lynch

today.

Gah, this post is WIFOMing me to death. If AE is scum, I don't believe LmL would put himself in a position to so openly protect her but since she obviously has to die before endgame this could be scum saving an easy mislynch for later.

FoS: LmL

. Of course, it could be a tactic of being so blatantly linked to AE that people actually

won't

believe he would be so blatant... an odd gambit, but not impossible.

Something about this post worries me generally - if AE is scum then there's the possible protection thing and if she is town then there's the possibly saving an easy mislynch for later thing. Both are weird.

As I say, WIFOMing me to death...

Ugh.

Point taken, Mert. There is no right way to handle this. The AE lynch, right now, seems WRONG. I don't know why. It's eating at me.

If the overall town sentiment is to lynch her, I will vote it. I just... don't know.

[LoudmouthLee]

AE, you post well, but I'm really hoping you're actually scum since you're easily the best lead we have, rather than Fool's Scum.

That said, if you -are- scum, 335 is a very good post; it's going to be pretty much impossible to separate out the WIFOM from that (if you're scum. If you're town, it's an interesting analysis, though one wonders why why mostly gave your analysis on those you -didn't- suspect the most.

I'm not scum though. I get, believe me, I

get

, that Vendagoat says he tried to kill me and I didn't die so I must be scum. I've tried to rebut that by saying (a) we have only his word he tried to kill me anyway, and (b) it seems extremely likely that Glork protected me. (Which is something I want to discuss with you, by the way...) That's as far as I can go with that. If someone,

any

one, would point to anything at all that actually seems suspicious or anything, maybe we could have some sort of dialogue. At this point, I'm scared that I'll just be the deadline "well, we need to lynch someone so..." lynch, which I really hate. (And for two reasons: (1) I'm not scum, so you'll be in lylo tomorrow, with hardly anything to go on since no one is doing anything at all today, and (2) those sorts of lynches are very difficult to analyse and thus make good hiding spots for the

actual

scum.)

(And the analysis was on everyone; I just didn't get enough time to post about you and LoudmouthLee, which I thought I made clear.)

-------------

Anyway, here's what I have to say about LoudmouthLee:
1) PBuG (LmL's previous incarnation) was the 5th vote on the page-two bandwagon on XYZ, with no reasoning really. I really didn't like that, which is why I voted him at the time. (That was the only thing he did before getting replaced, which is neither here nor there.)

2) As I said at the time, I really didn't like the way he attacked the people on my bandwagon (post 86). It just felt wrong. I know in this game that the mafia don't know (well, now they do, but they didn't :p) who the other mafia team is, so it would be extremely risky to try a "buddying up" tactic, as it could come back to bite you in the ass. But really...the wagon on me wasn't all that big or all that horrible, and I don't like how he zeroed in on it (especially since it wasn't the only wagon going on, but he completely neglected to address the XYZ wagon).

3) I really didn't like this quote of his:

@CtD: Talk me into voting Glork over you. I will be on a massive campaign to lynch one of the both of you. I'm feeling Stewie, too... but.. c'est la vie. I feel less strongly on him than the both of you.

(though I do like the way CTD responded, more "townie points" for CTD), because it's very...I mean, why do that? As CTD said, he didn't think Glork actually

was

scum, so why should he push for Glork's lynch? I don't like, basically, how LmL tried to make it seem like there were only two alternatives: Glork or CTD. It stifles discussion...and it could be trying to misdirect people. (And on a side note, the little comment about Stewie gives me scumbuddy vibes. That's the only link I saw between them really, so I'm not sure.)

4) Post 102 looks like a possible partnership with mneme. Again, not convinced, but since I find them both scummy, I thought it was worth pointing out.

5) I find it interesting that LoudmouthLee was the first one to start the "AE was probably the missed kill, so FoS her" thing (on Day Two). Comparing that with his behavior towards me today really confuses me. We all saw how he went after Glork, which (hey, I can metagame too :p) is much more what I'd suspect of him--forceful, not backing down, etc. But with me he just floats this idea out there yesterday, then votes for one of the people who votes me today, FoSes the other, and then calles me a "necessary lynch" but not necessarily today. While I certainly appreciate the not-voting-of-AE, it looks like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too.

6) Oh, and going back to yesterday, he uses this:

Scum is careful. I am agressive and trying in a reckless pursuit of the truth.

as a defense. I don't like this because...well, if he really believed that (WIFOM and all), then why FoS me at all yesterday? I dare you, Lee, to find someone who was

more

agressive than I was. Plus it's just a lousy defense, since...well, if it were that easy, mafia wouldn't be any fun, since we'd catch those cautious scum and never lynch those aggressive townies.

Ok, now I have a handful of questions for you, Lee:
a) You said this:

Venda voted AE out of the gate and never let up.

Do you think that's an accurate representation? Wouldn't it be better to say

I

started attacking him, he FoSed me (and also Glork, by the way), I kept attacking him, and he voted me? Because that's the way it read to me, so I don't understand why you're trying to portray it differently.

b) Yesterday, in post 275, you said you thought MrBuddyLee was Ice mafia. Do you still think that? Why or why not?

c) You said that you think Glork protected me, but were quick to point out that that doesn't make me innocent. I want to know if you think I'm innocent or scum, and why.

And with that, I'll give you the finger. :p

FoS: LoudmouthLee

(I'll post the mneme stuff in a seperate post, since this one's already fairly lengthy, and I want people to actually read both. )

#1) I am not responsible for PBug's erratic play.
#2) You seemed like an easy lynch target. Perhaps too easy. Since Glork has been exposed as the doctor, with a proper metagame, I found you to be a likely doc protect. As in.. if I were the doctor, I'd protect you. Glork and I normally share judgement skills of similar ilk, and I metagamed him there. My lack of suspicions of you have LITTLE to do with your post (I'm actually finding you scummier and scummier, but I will post that when I have more time). My gut feeling is that that you're town. I'm unsure about that (I was leaning towards Mneme and Stewie, but that's beginning to change.)
#3) It stifles discussion? Absolutely not. You may not be aware, AE, but I happen to be overly dramatic at times, and say sweeping statements. It's something that I'm trying to get over. @AE: Tell me, looking at Glork's reactions with me on D1, would you have found Glork scummy?
#4) Absolutely not. I would like for you to detail for me how there is even a remote "partnership". You can call anything distancing. Give me proof.
#5) Touche. You have not played with me enough. Consider this an open invitation! (hey, you fingered me before! I doubt people will even read this post, so I had to get something dirty in there). I was forceful. I did not back down. I thought he was scum. His doc claim went uncountered. I felt he was scummy. if you do not want me to attack people I think is scummy, why don't you break out the darning needles and we can all fix socks.
#6) Metagaming, AE. People play differently as town then as scum.

To answer your questions:

a) Didn't Venda vote you out of the gate D2?
b) His lack of posts disturb me. He's a candidate for mafia.
c) The mafia consists of 2 of the 4 following players: AE, Mneme, Stewie, MBL.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bah. She's a necessary lynch. I would much rather lynch Mneme, and I want to be on record feeling that way.

Unvote, Vote: Autumn

[LoudmouthLee]

• Crub - I can't help getting a slight scumvibe for Crub's defence of AE. The tone of the posts seemed like "We shouldn't
  really
  pay attention to what Vendagoat said"

  I don't see why there should be much debate about who Glork protected night 1. As long as we agree that there was a chance he protected AE it doesn't have any bearing on AE's scummyness other than to say that theres a chance AE is either scum or town.

  This post stood out for me as one of those posts. Of course this is just analysis of tone, so I'm assuming that other people will have different opinions on it.
• LML - I have a very slight townvibe off LML. He's made clear his suspicions of mneme, which I agree with, and I can see the majority of his points of view.
• Mert - I'm not getting very many scumvibes at all, simply because of good analyses and the like.
• mneme - There's something very unsettling about this:

  Therefore, vote: Vendagoat. Hey, goat -- who'd you try to kill last night? Maybe they're Ice!

  There's just something suspicious about someone asking someone a question, then them come out scum and answer it. There's something very weird about that, especially since it turned out to be true. I don't really think that mneme's quickvote can actually be classed as a quickvote because, from mneme's perspective, it would have been a normal vote, at the time.
• Stewie - Gets minor scumpoints simply for having the lowest postcount. The AE quickvote still unsettles me, but it had more rationale that mneme's initial vote, so I'm feeling better about Stewie's

A general question to the town. I agree with Stewie's earlier idea of an eventual no-lynch to bring the playercount to an odd number. What are your thoughts on this?

I happen to agree with your top two people. I would love a Mneme lynch today.

[LoudmouthLee]

Since we have little to say right now...

Vote: Mneme

[LoudmouthLee]

LML do you think that mneme's play yesterday of pushing for the lynch of AE was a distancing move? Do you think AE's vote on mneme yesterday was likewise? I don't know if scum would be that forward in their distancing.

To be honest I'm more suspicious of you.
My problem is I don't know whether a scum partner would come out with that "STOP STOP STOP" post at the start of yesterday.
Other than that you posted multiple times that we should lynch someone else but always kept your options open without making it look like it was a big defense of AE. "This does not mean AE is not scum" also there was a bit of minor distancing between you 2. A three post mini argument with AE fos'ing you. Also I'm curious why you felt the need to hammer AE an hour before deadline?

vote:LML

That's funny, because you're on my "scum list" too.

I didn't want a quicklynch yesterday. First and foremost.

#1) It would have been VERY easy for scum to just hop on that bandwagon and look to quicklynch AE. It makes talking end, and gives the town lack of useful information.

I gave the town the opportunity to think of other ways to go. Especially with the following facts...

Mneme asked Glork NOT to say who he protected. That is still a MAJOR sticking point. With Venda's comments, AE was going to be lynched. It didn't matter if it were yesterday or today. You gain valuable information by looking at voting patterns.

I firmly believe, now that AE is shown as scum (and my scum playstyle, BTW, is to absolutely throw my partner under the bus... as is the PROPER play there), I am looking very closely and Mneme and Stewie, the two who jumped out of the gate to vote AE so quickly. My defense (if you call it that) of AE was on the WIFOM basis that Glork protected her (which I *still* think he did.) The point is moot.

I was on the wagon as the lynching vote. I disliked the speed that the AE wagon was growing (especially with the two opening posts as votes.) Any mafia player worth his skin would have acted in accordance with the way I did. We need, as the town, to weigh all possibilities.

I said that AE needs to be lynched, but I was unsure if yesterday was the day.

That said, I still like Mneme over Crub and Stewie. The Crub idea works since Crub is a newbie and may not know of distancing, although I'm sure (metagame) that AE would have told Crub to bus her.

I like my Mneme vote, and would possibly go for a Stewie vote.

[LoudmouthLee]

I firmly believe, now that AE is shown as scum (and my scum playstyle, BTW, is to absolutely throw my partner under the bus... as is the PROPER play there), I am looking very closely and Mneme and Stewie, the two who jumped out of the gate to vote AE so quickly.

[LoudmouthLee]

And argued for less info, not more -- as while I generally think info favors the town, this is much less true in a game with one functional mafia left.

Why is that? Everyone left is a townie or Ice Scum. This makes no sense.

[LoudmouthLee]

unvote, vote stewie

Stewie voted AE most of Day 1. Voting patterns hold a clue here.

[LoudmouthLee]

Her partner. and scum happen to vote for each other on D1 because it's a safe vote, and makes them look good later on in the event of a lynch.

[LoudmouthLee]

FWIW, I wasn't doing "I know who's scum, but I'll tell you tomorrow" (though you can paint it like that if you want) -- it was more "I have some feelings for who's more townie and who's more scummy -- but I don't want to get left alive because they're wrong or killed because they're right".

So, Mneme, you're playing for yourself, now for the townie faction? The town is a team, and wether we survive as a team is what matters, not if you survive yourslef (or are nightkilled).

Basically, I find the quote above extremely suspect.

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm beginning to REALLY suspect Mert. More on this in a few.

[LoudmouthLee]

I've reread and I'm almost certain that the other Ice exists in {Crub, Mneme, Stewie} with Stewie being the least likely, in my opinion.

I don't buy Crub's argument that if Stewie was distancing then it was more subtle than if Mneme was and so he's more likely scum... that seems to be creeping almost toward "too townie" in some ways - he looked less like he might be blatantly bussing AE than Mneme did, so he's more likely scum? Don't buy it.

Mneme's connections yesterday and his "I think I know who's scum, but I'll tell you tomorrow" thing still ping my scumdar, but I must admit that his recent posts about Crub seem to add up and strike me as likely. I still think Mneme's a good candidate for a lynch, but right now I'm preferring a Crub lynch over a Mneme one.

As for no lynching, I think there may be some benefit in doing so today but it could also wait until tomorrow - it's certainly not essential to end the day with even numbers today. I agree that we should put pressure on those we believe are scum today and no-lynch just before deadline if we're undecided by that point. I don't think we should simply no-lynch for the sake of it though - if we can reach a consensus on who we find most scummy today then we should probably lynch them while we have the room to do so.

I'm incredibly concerned about Mert's intentions with this post... he references the "too townie" fallacy of Crub / AE / Stewie Fiasco. I am less apt to think, in this game, with scum being as careful as they are, that someone who outwardly defended AE is scum. We have two lynches, and I say we use them to the best of our advantage. Mert also tries to plant the idea of Mneme today, which is in my mind, a damning paragraph.

It really seems to me that Mert is setting up two mislynches here..and is saying that "once we mislynch Crub, since Mneme made such a nice case on him, we can just lynch Mneme and have a scum win party!"

I agree, this game seems to have stalled and I believe that is, in part, due to a lack of fresh information. Since I believe him to be most likely scum,

Vote: Crub

.

Most recently.. stalled sue to fresh information? Poo. This reeks of scum hopping onto an easy bandwagon to save his skin.

There's more, but I haven't the time. I have a small life-crisis. This should be enough to re-jumpstart convo.

Unvote, Vote: Mert

[LoudmouthLee]

Bump to get this to the top. I want everyone to weigh in.

[LoudmouthLee]

I think the night choices were obvious, except for this one tidbit:
Glork actually protected AutumnEvenings night one.
Vendagoat targeted her for kill, and she was doubly protected .

I knew it. I frickin knew it.

[LoudmouthLee]

Finally, FoS: AutumnEvenings. She seems to have garnered much attention today. It fits into Glork's elephant puzzle that one of the scum is trying to get us to lynch AE. She may be Ice Mafia and was targeted last night. This also fits the fact that from what I have seen, AE is a fairly typical N1 kill. She's eloquent and dangerous. With the opening FoS's levvied on her, I believe that she could be ice mafia and the one of her earlier FoSers could be Fire Mafia. Just musing out loud here, but it's been noted in my handy-dandy notebook.

[LoudmouthLee]

LOL good job town.

Someone mentioned me maybe giving up scum partners or attempting to ruin a perfectly good game. Nope never crossed my mind. One of the reasons I hammered myself is specifically so that you guys wouldn't know for sure what i did. I've read that post in the general discussion about scum people giving up their partners and ruining games. No thanks no ban for me.

It seemed, however, you were accusing AE of cheating....

[LoudmouthLee]

But your ultimate objective is

always

your win condition. By self-hammering when you were the last Fire around, you took deliberate action that made it impossible to fulfil your win condition. If you had self-hammered and outed AE but your partner was still alive I would have hailed it as an incredible scum move. But since you did it when in the process of making yourself lose on purpose there was nothing your faction could gain from it, which makes it basically asshattery.

Now it's not going to get you banned, but you should

always

try to achieve your win condition as that's fundamentally what drives this game in the first place. The only explanation I can find for what you did was that you were mad at AE for going after you throughout the day and so you decided to take her down with you, despite throwing the game for both you and your partner in the process.

Dude, sorry i took your partner out. Relax, it's a game.

Well, Venda, you had nothing to gain by doing it. You felt angry that AE nailed you to the wall (and she did), and you felt the need to be vindictive. It was the jealous boyfriend syndrome.. "If I can't win.. you won't either."

You also made comments that alluded to her cheating, which was so obviously not the case.

You seriously need to grow up.