Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[MrBuddyLee]

sv is an odd kill choice.

ps. hi

[MrBuddyLee]

Not enough for a vote on day one, hmm. You must take your votes very seriously.

[MrBuddyLee]

Willing to join a Glork wagon ^_^.
If you're wrong Glork, you're public enemy #1

Glork is innocuously wrong, but clearly this is worse.

unvote, vote: Guardian

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork's hyper-protection of Guardian noted.

Guardian, my vote on you would be OMGUS if there wasn't a solid reason behind it. Solid, at least, for page 2.

[MrBuddyLee]

All the votes on the Vote Count are scattered.. I predict there will not be a lynch until page 15 and beyond..

Glork, What is an Inkling?

This is a scummy post.

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert and Guardian appear to be scum. I'm satisfied with finding two today.

sv was an odd kill because when she's town the town loses and when she's scum the town loses. Extrapolate from that as you will.

<3 Jack. Whether you're wagoning scumbuddies or playing well, I'm buying it so far.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, what is it exactly about Guardian that you don't like? His original joking around with Glork?

Do you really not find anything suspicious about the totality of Guardian's posts? I'd like to hear your analysis before I elaborate.

Glork brings up essentially the same point I did, that sv isn't necessarily a logical kill, and then reasons that someone without a ton of sv knowledge aka Albert might have committed the kill. I don't have a problem with it. I presently think he was just making early-game hay when he chided me for doing the same thing.

BT parrotted two players in that post. Sketchy.

[MrBuddyLee]

What exactly do you mean by parroting two players?

mbl votes me for my joke...
mbl defends his page 2 vote on me and doesn't get that I was joking.

Do

not

strawman me, Jack.

MBL, what is it exactly about Guardian that you don't like? His original joking around with Glork?

Jack, I think you

are

straw-manning Glork

Polly wanna cracker?

[MrBuddyLee]

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla. FYI.

This comment seems to assume the accused is town.

FOS: TCS

[MrBuddyLee]

TCS's vote is on Albert.

If you think Albert is scum, then you don't tell him "u shuldnt claim vanilla", you tell him "BS". If you know Albert is town (because you're scum), you feel comfortable chiding him for being a townie who just made a bad play.

[MrBuddyLee]

In fact, I would say that "getting lynched is better than claming vanilla" is

more

applicable if Albert is scum than if Albert is town.

I see where you were going with this, MBL, but you're just plain wrong this time around.

Glork, you're totally, totally wrong here. If the statement was "any claim is better than claiming vanilla" you'd be right, but "getting lynched is better than claiming vanilla" only applies to town. Therefore the statement by TCS leans strongly towards assuming Albert is town.

TCS's statement was:

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla.

Not for scum it isn't. This statement only applies to town, and therefore TCS possibly made a slip that he knew Albert was town. Don't you see this?

Sometimes you read a player's post and think, "Why was that the first thing they thought of to say?" TCS's reaction was a water-treading exercise and a bizarre first thing to post unless he was scum who instinctively thought, "What a dumb-ass townie" and blurted that out.

[MrBuddyLee]

Or he could have thought,

if

Albert B is a townie he shouldn't claim it.

But that's not what he said, and we're playing a game that involves careful use and analysis of words and phrases. He said:

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla.

not

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla if you're town.

/horsebeating

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, I rarely interpret those slips as 100% indicative of alignment. But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're

something

, often they can tilt the scales between two players who both look scummy to me, and there's a lot to be learned from people's reactions to the observation. I don't think in black and white by any means, but that doesn't mean I won't push these things aggressively.

I'll think about if/when I've caught scum making slips in any games not still running. And I'm not trying to distract from anything--it's actually time for a reread to see who's not participating.

[MrBuddyLee]

But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're

something

....are you trying to tell me you've found nothing else to go on?

annoyed: Glork

But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're something,

often they can tilt the scales between two players who both look scummy to me, and there's a lot to be learned from people's reactions to the observation

.

[MrBuddyLee]

I find the interactions between Glork and MBL to be a bit odd. I don't think I've played with Glork before, so I'm not sure what to make of his posting. MBL isn't acting like he has before as scum and actually seems pro-town to me, but I just don't have a good feeling about their "argument" so far.

Huck, please qualify this lack of good feeling if you can.

I'm just milling about looking for stuff to make hay over on Day One. Glork disagreed on a few points, I corrected him where appropriate, and I'm entirely unsure of his alignment. How's that odd?

[MrBuddyLee]

Hey, I call em like I see em and I have nothing to hide. My first thought upon seeing sv dead was, "wow, what a bizarre choice" and it would have been anti-town for me to bite my tongue about that. I'm happy to censor my thoughts when expressing them could endanger a player but otherwise I'll take whatever reasonable amount of "suspicion" comes from expressing the truth as I see it.

[MrBuddyLee]

In YOS joining, I advise people to read the few posts that I and YB had right before he joined. I don't want them to get swallowed in all the noise.

Fascinating. It's D1, Guardian, we all hardly know each other, and you

really

want us to notice that YB approves of you:

I liked Guardian's post, Especially the last sentence.

Written YB off as possible scum, Guardian? Or is it more that BM looks like a weak sheep and you're putting us back on the scent?

[MrBuddyLee]

YB, you hopped on a wagon:

Vote:Battle Mage

Might as well join on the Wagon

Then you defended beanbagboy for joining a wagon:

Jack, He's following because you said, "let's wagon".

and then you attacked Albert for joining a wagon:

We are just at page 6, these are my initial impressions, that's all.

Your Inital Impressions are to join a Bandwagon??

And then you accused BM of being wishy-washy

Thank you for providing tonight's entertainment.

[MrBuddyLee]

In YOS joining, I advise people to read the few posts that I and YB had right before he joined. I don't want them to get swallowed in all the noise.

Fascinating. It's D1, Guardian, we all hardly know each other, and you

really

want us to notice that YB approves of you:

I liked Guardian's post, Especially the last sentence.

Written YB off as possible scum, Guardian? Or is it more that BM looks like a weak sheep and you're putting us back on the scent?

That wasnt all I said in that post, you just quoted the part where you can use it to accuse me...

Yes Yogurt, you're right, if I'd left the last nine words in there, your scumhunting genius would have shone through and all doubt would have been washed away like Peeps in a warm driving rain:

...It is as if BM wants to seems scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Because of N9V's post history, obv.

unvote, vote: N9V

[MrBuddyLee]

I am getting a very town read on him (YB). I think that is also happening for him vis a vis me.

I would join the N9V wagon, but I would probably be found scummy for that, too .

Your affair with YB reminds me of Kurt and Courtney. You should watch your back.

Also, if you're town, you should join wagons because you feel they're right and not overly worry about what others think. Courage is townish, self-preservation is scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Clearly the solution is to call in sick. There's a bug going around, you know.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, MrBuddyLee and Jack, who have more posts but hardly any more content.

Wow, I couldn't disagree with this more. I'm en fuego this game, so much so in fact that I'll be getting ganked N1. And all but about two of Jack's 25 or so posts have added something relevant to the game, many things I also noticed myself.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well Glork, then here's a test: close your eyes and tell me what MBL thinks about five random players (not counting yourself). If you can do it, I'm impressed.

That's a much more fairly expressed point, and causes me to assess you as townish. To be honest, I haven't drawn conclusions about many players so far, I'm more making observations that other people can build on. I've gotten a mildly townish vibe from Jack, mildly scummy vibes from Guardian, and conflicting vibes from HJ, YB, Glork, BM, beanbag, TCS and Albert. That's off the top of my head.

[MrBuddyLee]

I feel that YB, Guardian, and Albert are all either complete novices at this game, or they're playing really sloppy scum. I am

certain

(bold mine) that at least one of them is scum

Glork, does your dictionary have a different definition for

certain

than mine does? Cause use of that word on D1 gives me hives.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm sorry that you hate certainty in Mafia, but you know that it's pretty much how I roll.

I know. I don't hate your "certainty", it's just that I find myself having to maintain a Glorksaurus in my head so when you use one word I know it actually means something different.

[MrBuddyLee]

Plus, one of my idols once expressed similar concerns about certainty. Back in my first big game on scum:

(MBL,) your

certainty

in both lynches and suspicion-casting on their voters before the lynches/alignments were made public by the mod contribute to my uneasiness towards you.

Then again, he was scum, lol.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, why would who I think is scummy matter, when there are more experienced players who can more easily find the scum ?

Several reasons.
A) Experienced players play poorly at times. Look at Lights Out 2. I helped secure FOUR MISLYNCHES on DAY ONE in that game. (Nevermind that I pushed two lynches on scums on Day Two... the beginning of that game was easily the worst game I had ever played.)
B) Your arguments are just as valid as anybody else's, provided they are logically sound. If every player just sat around and waited for the best scumhunters to try to find scum, then we'd end up with the same bandwagon/follow-the-X game that we almost have here.
C) More experienced players can be scums themselves. Scumbags will try to mislead you. If I am scum and you wait for me to tell you who the scums are and you follow me, there's a decent chance you'll end up mislynching. And considering that I've had an unusually high number of mediocre (at best) games lately, you wouldn't even be able to use Burde of Proficiency (logical fallacy as it is) against me.

Oddly, Glork kind of left out the most important reason:
D) If you're scum, Albert, we'll use your arguments to catch you.

Now why would Glork overlook the most important reason for Albert to post his suspicions?

[MrBuddyLee]

Wow, awesome.

unvote

[MrBuddyLee]

I think he's got the yips.

[MrBuddyLee]

Unvote

until I get a strong case on someone.

It's Day One. Your vote should ALWAYS be on someone.

vote: Albert

[MrBuddyLee]

1) Takes 10 to lynch. Risk minimal.
2) Your vote expresses your intent. We need to learn everyone's intent.

Obviously if you're extremely expressive with your suspicions, the rule's not golden. But it's a good example to set--doesn't give lazy scum and lurkers wiggle room to say "Well, HungryJoe wasn't voting... so why should I?"

Albert's excuse is that he's waiting for a "strong case on someone". Insufficient reason not to vote D1 imo.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL is lurking, this is not usual play for him, not sure what to make of it, though.

Vote: MrBuddyLee

MoS: MBL lurked hardcore in Committee as town, did he not?

Are you guys sharing spoons with Paris? Seriously, don't post at 4:30 in the morning if it's going to be retarded.

Lurking with 32 posts in 13 days? gtfo.

[MrBuddyLee]

I couldn't disagree more with Billy's arguments about lurkers.

1) Lurkers aren't fun to play with. You play to examine the interactions between personalities, not so you can try to ascertain what's inside Generic_Cardboard_Box_01. So it's pro-fun to berate them.
2) Why on earth assume town can't both poke at lurkers AND comment on active players? Why assume your fellow townies can't discern between a pure lurker-hunter and one who does both? Lurker-hunting is only scummy in the absence of other critical analysis, and it's easy to nail people who solely lurker-hunt as scummy.
3) It's not the mod's job to lurker-hunt. A player who posts once a week shouldn't be replaced, their fellow town should do the work to get them posting more.
4) Just because lurkers are town doesn't mean they're not a threat to town. I can't tell you how many times I've coasted to victory as scum on the backs of lurking town. Getting those people to talk is invariably a good thing for town.

[MrBuddyLee]

If any scum is worth his salt, he (she) will do everything to avoid anything that might make him look suspicious, including lurking.

5) We still have to catch the scum who aren't worth their salt...

[MrBuddyLee]

Lurker hunting is one of those actions that scum use to look protown without having to hurt their chances of winning too much.

see (2) above.

[MrBuddyLee]

1. Shteven- Checks in with a useless post, as if he didn't want to accumulate votes for lurking.
"My vote will stand on albert for quite some time" sounds bizarre, especially after his previous post only offered a fingernail of suspicion on Albert.. then

I will go back and provide a summary of why I'm on Albert still

after being prodded for reasoning. Seems it should be more readily at hand if the vote is that firm...

Re-reading my own posts, the only problem I see is that TCS seemed sane back then, and he's now seeming much less so. Where I left off around page 19 he's just starting to pick up a wagon.

Curious to see "seeming less scummy" evidenced by the fact he's picked up a wagon rather than by any specific details of his behavior.

(Albert) admitted to acting scummy -- then offered the defense that we should read his other games, and find out that this is normal. I object to that as I hardly am able to keep up with one game, there's no way I'm going to read another 4 so that I can meta-game this one. Considering that defense as completely worthless, My vote remained.

Sounds like too much like rationalization and not enough like scumhunting. Calls his marks "targets" which is a scummish word but I've possibly used it before as town, not sure. Asking a few players to sit back came across as moderately protown. But then he "wants to hear more" about yogurt as scum and BT-HJ instead of researching it himself. Leaning: scummy postings made by sloppy town.

3. HungryJoe --Disinterested protown tone

5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS)

Sigh. Battle Mage, please stop distracting the town from lynching the ACTUAL scum. This is the primary problem with your playstyle.

This seems to assume BM is town.

I wasn't acting scummy so people would get a read on me. I wanted to see who was most interested in shifting the wagon to me.

This sounds like a lie to me.

I'm calling Guardian as SK.

Typical scum mistake, why the read that he's SK and not scum, how would their behavior differ? Major scumtell, either scum or town making huge mistakes.

6. Coron 6. inHimshallIbe - I don't have a problem with him yet. Must ask him questions to get more info on alignment.

7. ~N9V~ 7. Mastermind Of Sin - for some reason i got a protown vibe off of: "Still feeling good about him, yay!" Went most sharply after the player who attacked his predecessor, something I'd expect from protown replacement. I liked most of his initial thoughts post except for the paragraph on me which is paranoid and obtuse. And he's sticking with it for whatever reason.

8. HackerHuck - Oddly bold statement:

I'd wager that if BM turns up scum, HungryJoe is one too.

Thinks a vig might be using a chainsaw. "town seems opportunistic" is a protown comment. Conclusion: huck needs to try harder if he's town.Very little to go on.

9. BattleMage - I'm not even going to bother for now. Too painful. I'll analyze him separately later.

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote, vote: Glork

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork's explanation was much less defensive and aggressive than I'd have expected from Glork. johhan, can you please explain how you'd have expected town to respond differently to their slip being pointed out?

[MrBuddyLee]

smack: anyone FOSing/voting me for voting Glork

This is a game of words. When someone uses a particular word you do not ASSUME they meant to use another word. You prod and poke and see if the story they give checks out. Scum make mistakes when they're tired, and "typos" are absolutely NOT a nonexistent scumtell. lrn2play.

[MrBuddyLee]

Guardian, are you and YB friends in real life? You think you have a better read on him because of that? Can you go into a little more detail on why you think he's innocent please?

[MrBuddyLee]

Sure, anyone

can

but...

nice derail. carry on.

[MrBuddyLee]

grr... just because something's not a 100% scumtell or even 50% doesn't mean you don't use it as leverage to get more info. you guys should know this. mountains out of molehills is what this game's all about.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not as much as I would have had you guys not derailed.

I confirmed that MoS is kneejerk this game, and Glork's reaction was different than I expected, and that johann may have invented some reasoning, and that you for some inexplicable reason think I'm the best place for your vote right now.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, Glork's voting Guardian, who is the leading wagon I believe. No one took the bait to leap at the chance to help Guardian off the schneide.

[MrBuddyLee]

On D1, BM posted no relevant game posts for a week. That's sufficient cause for removal for me if the mod so chooses... if you know you've gotta afk for a week early in the game, don't sign up!

Plus...

now hurry up and kill me. i DO hate a dragged out demise...

combined with his self-hammer in another game recently makes him an excellent candidate for replacement on grounds of wrecking/unbalancing the game intentionally. The absence plus the irresponsibility == yay, replacement.

[MrBuddyLee]

14. Haut Boy 14. AutumnEvenings

Well Glork, then here's a test: close your eyes and tell me what MBL thinks about five random players (not counting yourself). If you can do it, I'm impressed.

Protownish observation.

I'd be quite happy lynching the following: Billy, Yogurt, Albert, Shteven, and possibly a few others

Pretty sizable "happy list", I like to narrow mine down a lot more before I consider being happy with my decision. YMMV.

I don't think he's doing it instead of scum-hunting, which is what I accused you of, as he's done an awful lot of the latter.

I would have used "appeared to have done" as town but meh. Dense, nuanced, observant posts. Autumn, what do you think of MoS? Reason I ask is you asked him a question about BT, then reminded the rest of us six times that you asked that question.

15. Billy Twilight - not manipulative, other than on the soapbox about lurker hunting. "BTW, part of the reason I think YB is scum is because of his forced sounding ask for a lurker hunt against N9V." without a vote on YB is a little suspicious, but he followed up with the vote a few days later. No major scumsigns otherwise.

16. Jack - Paying attention, playing like I am--reading posts and making observations, not so much picking out scum yet. His vote's on me, which is a pretty crappy place for it imo but his recent votes on Yogurt and Shteven weren't bad.

18. Nik Zero 18. Yosarian2 - Appears to be scumhunting, which made me realize we won't be able to tell scum town from SK very easily, so we're basically hunting mafia for now. Saying someone is "townish" is kind of misleading at this point because SK and town share an agenda. Nothing Yos has said bothers me, and I'm extra paranoid about him because I've never seen him as scum that I can recall.

19. Johhan-Only 11 posts.

I'm keeping an eye on who's on the albert bandwagon, since i think he's scum but also find several of those voting for him suspicious.

Bizarre. Votes BM but: "That last sentence screams scum to me, but also makes me keep an eye on Albert." Albert-centric, using Albert to incriminate. Fascinating.

Oh, I believe that you just made a mistake, it was how quick you snapped to the defensive, and have been doing most of the game, that bugs me.

This sounds like scum chiding town. Actively distancing/bussing scum.

20. BeanBagBoy (BBB) 20. Plessiez Bizarre opening statement:

I don't think Glork's survival is any reason to blame him. We don't know what went on last night, it could have been any number of reasons that kept him alive.

Actually no, it's only two reasons: two scumgroups chose not to kill him or one chose not to and he's in the other.

your votes give others information, so as a rule voting is a good thing (in random voting)

Ok, we're dealing with a slightly illogical person here. Noted.

If we're going after non contributers, Unvote: Jack, Vote: YogurtBandit

Curious use of "we're".

Unvote, there are too many people too close to being lynched.

Another weird quote and bad reason to unvote... weird excuse for protecting BM?

still, that's enough to keep my vote where it is."

Pointing out masons: clueless tell. except that i think beanbag's an alt, so wtf...
FOSes me two weeks late for my first post about the sv kill. No firm conclusion, seemed like an alter playing intentionally bizarre.

I'm leaving the most painful reads for last: Yogurt, Guardian, Albert, BM, Glork.

[MrBuddyLee]

Two scumgroups, two kills.

[MrBuddyLee]

*tunes his sarcasm detector to Channel Z*

I was referring to Yogurt, who you seemed to find scummier in your initial post.

[MrBuddyLee]

This question is directed to Yogurt and Albert only.

If you were scum right now, which of your three scumbuddies would you choose to throw under the bus, and why?

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't remember Yogurt attacking my predecessor, either.
Also, that wasn't sarcasm.

I guess you didn't find this sketchy:

N9V could be a good play, but we should prod him first... pressure voting is okay, but we cant lynch him for lurking just yet.

Strongly implying that if he lurks just a lil bit longer, then maybe it'll be ok to lynch him...

[MrBuddyLee]

It was a hypothetical question, Yogurt. Please answer it. You too, Albert.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why's my question stupid guys?

[MrBuddyLee]

That hypothetical makes me sad.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not only can you get something from the tone of responses to that question, but there's also a chance of a scum slip-up. You never know what you can get people to do when they're tired/drunk...

Autumn, I'm working on my Glork analysis, but off the top of my head I'm solidly on the fence regarding him. Don't tell him this, but I'd almost never be in favor of a Glork lynch D1. That doesn't mean I don't want him on the hotseat though.

[MrBuddyLee]

I realize I'm not supposed to be answering other people's questions for them, but MBL's question is so horribly stupid I figured I'd take a crack at it.

Mu.

Shteven, my question to Albert and Yogurt is only mu if they are town. Do you have some inside information that this is the case? If not, would you care to revise and extend your remarks?

[MrBuddyLee]

I wonder (since now it seems neither are going to answer it - don't know how I feel about that) what you would expect the answers to be from a town player or from a scum player.

I hoped that the first one of those two that arrived at my question would be scum, and would accidentally answer the question by naming the most bussable of their scumpartners. I don't know if you've ever seen the tv show with that British guy who pseudo-hypnotizes people on hte street into giving him their watches and wallets, but I was hoping that if I asked with confidence, I might get scum in a frame of mind to answer my question.

I expected town to confidently state "wtf". I expected scum that spotted the trick to respond uneasily.

[MrBuddyLee]

It's as if he wants to be next. I say, let him.

^ Scummy post.

[MrBuddyLee]

I know it's a bit much to ask for all twenty of you to hold off on the glorious hammer until I've had a chance to complete my analysis, but please consider my request. I'll get started right now on my final five. Thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert, we should lynch you on principle for that.

[MrBuddyLee]

What I'm expecting to see before I read D1:
Yogurt: Goofball, gets indignant and OMGUSsy if he's town being accused.
Guardian: dunno
Albert: dunno
BM: Irrational but sincere
Glork: Irrational and manic, possibly indifferentish

Guardian

I could definitely be convinced to get back on BM. At the moment I shall

vote: N9V because he made one post with a vote and used someone else's reasoning for it

Aren't these two statements equivalent? I was concerned that you'd push your responsibility for your vote on someone else, and in the next sentence you vote someone for soing the same thing.

"Ok, I took an hour or two to think." really? If so, I'm impressed.

Albert, like I said earlier, is an appealing play for the town if only because he has already claimed vanilla.

It looks like you added "for the town" at the last minute here. Without it, the sentence would look scummy. Question is, would both town and scum be equally likely to modify that sentence?

Albert I have little qualms about because he made an unforced vanilla townie claim earlier, he is not contributing much to the town, and

has given us many reasons to think we are scum.

Slip of the tongue?

he is a claimed vanilla that, if not mafia, the mafia will let hang around for the whole game to try and get him lynched later

Not the world's best argument.

Is coming up with cases on people you know not to be your scum buddies difficult? You could at least help us find the SK.

How do you know Albert's not the SK?

Albert is just trying to distract people from himself, to the detriment of the town, or to help his team if he is scum.

And again.

Glork, do you find Albert scummy? If so, doesn't it strike you as odd that I find Albert and Shteven scummy, and that I would be scum? I mean maybe this is WIFOM because thier allignments are not confirmed, but I am just trying to find scum like all the other town players...

And again. Trying to convince Glork he's not part of a scumteam instead of trying to convince Glork he's not scummy (which would include SK).

Summary: Sounded townish at first, I was about to say keep him around cause he's trying hard, but there are an awful lot of SK tells in there.

Albert (who's alt is this? RR?)

Damnit, some of the 2 best players are out...cunning mafia.

The opposite of the famous doc tell. Scummy.

ol guys, c'mon, history has taught us that BM is always townie

Sketchy.

Albert protected TCS twice and voted me for FOSing TCS, lol.

The truth is I was really looking forward to playing with JDodge and SpectrumVoid, but alas I am stuck with the likes of BM and you. And so I'm bored.

Curious.

But Glork, why would who I think is scummy matter, when there are more experienced players who can more easily find the scum ?

Terrible.

I miss the simple times when we could just all follow Glork and if he mislead us we would chop his head off and elect a new leader.

Unoriginal.

Crappy reasons for voting in general.

As a mafia, I tend to attack my scumbuddies and go hard after them. So in this case, probably Stcevhen(whatever his name is) or AE.

Feels too obvious to be scum outing their partners, but of course could be WIFOM. Noted for later.

Whoever's experiment this alt is in clever new personalities, euthanize it. I can't tell if you're scummy or just kinda knuckleheaded, but I can't see you moving the game forward in any way right now.

BattleMage

i didnt like Guardians last post. i havent checked this game in quite a while, and i can barely remember why i was voting for YB, so Guardian will suffice as the play for today.

Reckless.

bleh, not much else to go on. Seems borderline townish.

Glork
Came out of the blocks playing seriously. This tells me two things:
1) He's probably not the SK. Cause he's making himself a target instead of playing screwball.
2) He's seemingly not as afraid of being NKed as usual. Possible scumtell.

I read it all and don't need to pbpa it... we want to keep Glork around. Glork, if you're scum please don't NK me. Kill Guardian instead.

Yogurt
Yeah, goofy but earnest. A few dumb things like mason speculation etc, but I get a nonmanipulative read. I saw a huge difference in Yogurt town and Yogurt scum in scumchat and this looks more like town.

Well, I dont think MBL is scum at all. I dont think there are any signs of it.

Someday this will get you in a lot of trouble, LOL. Not this game though.

[MrBuddyLee]

I just reread everything since June 12th cause that's when I plunked down my previous analysis of a few of yall. Since then, Billy made a very well written and voluminous but not particularly persuasive argument against Yogurt. He essentially attacked Yogurt for being Yogurt, with a few nitpicky things thrown in. I'd be interested in seeing Billy make a comparative post analyzing Albert's behavior vs. Yogurt's.

FOS: Hungry Joe, Shteven

Minor FOS: Jack and Huck for being lazy, MoS for being hardheaded about a lot of things.
prod: BM, johann and plessiez for being nonentities

In other news, Inhim makes a whole lotta sense. Autumn comes across geniunely as well.

I need to look at voting patterns before I place my vote. Here's the thing--everyone in this game's hunting scum:

* Scum's hunting the SK
* SK's hunting the scum
* Town's hunting all the scumbags.

The things to look for that would differentiate them:

* Scum may choose to protect one of their own who gets in trouble (via vote manipulation) or rush other lynches if one of their weak sheep is on the schneide. They have the potential to sound awkward when talking about three other people: the ones whose alignments they already know.
* SK may lie a little lower than average for purposes of self-preservation. Can't win if the scum get to you first, let alone town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Reading is fundamental, Shteven.

I posted my approximate placement of 15 players via comments, FOSes etc last night, and that's after full reads on 15/20 people in two previous posts. If you're not clever enough to figure out how I rank people based on all that, you may need to take up a new hobby, like creating dioramas of Spike TV shows.

I need to look at voting patterns before I place my vote.

This jury's still out.

[MrBuddyLee]

Read between the lines, Yos, plus a few direct statements:

I must have heard that a thousand times over on this site, jack.

I miss the simple times when we could just all follow Glork and if he mislead us we would chop his head off and elect a new leader.

[MrBuddyLee]

What do you think of his SK-tells, Capn. Mosfaire?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL's defended it by claiming it was there for people to read, but it sounded then, and still does now, pretty inconclusive. Why give a summary of 5 players before your reread, listing 2 as "dunno" and the other three with equally vague phrases, and then not give them a final rating?

If you'd reread my posts you'd see that I did analyses in groups, that was the last group of 5, and for completeness I read the rest of the rest of the thread afterwards to look at the first 14 I analyzed. It's a nonissue.

[MrBuddyLee]

Twenty player game, six weeks old, six replacements, makes it REALLY tough to pick out scum D1 because there's so much noise to disguise anything relevant being said.

I think we should get one last set of replacements, get them on the record, and then lynch. I'm not particularly interested in lynching any of the following players today:

inHim
MoS
Guardian
Glork
Autumn
Twilight
Jack
Yos
Sarc

unvote

[MrBuddyLee]

Guardian's providing a lot of decently solid info, and I think if he's mafia he'll tie us to his partners over time. I also think it's entirely possible he's the SK, in which case we want him around a day or two to whack mafia at night.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think a good SK will be more likely to hit scum than town and basically act as a vig for the first few days. I have my eye on Guardian and if he's an SK I'm comfortable letting him take potshots at scum for a few nights.

[MrBuddyLee]

Then you haven't read my posts.

FOS: Huck

[MrBuddyLee]

FoS: MBL

Why is your vote sitting uselessly on nobody?

Cause I'm thinking. It was on you because you're squirrelly this game, but I'm not interested in lynching you, so thinking.

[MrBuddyLee]

Besides, the whole idea that you don't want to lynch him because he might be a SK just seems bizzare to me. It's like saying "Oh, better not lynch him, he might be a surivor". Anyone who's win condition isn't pro-town is a GREAT day 1 lynch.

Could you explain why you think he's a likely SK?

I don't like to lynch solid players D1 if possible. Guardian shows potential to be useful if he's town. And I pointed out a few possible SK tells in an earlier post. All in all, not who I want to lynch today.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hmm, I dunno, I've never been an SK but I always assumed they needed to kill off the mafia to win. It's not like nailing one or two at night is going to drastically lengthen the game, so it seems like it'd be optimal strat for an SK. The SK tells on him are weak, but kind of point away from him being part of a scumteam imo.

[MrBuddyLee]

What SK tells on Guardian *have* you seen, exactly? And what

exactly

do you think about YB, Glork, and Shteven?

Off the top of my head, YB is not playing unsubtly sneaky like he does as scum. Shteven is combative and has done some things I found sketchy but his earnestness makes me think he may be town. And it's too early for me to read Glork. I'll do a read and give you the specifics you're asking for on those three.

[MrBuddyLee]

You're wrong, and hypocrisy is a terrible reason for a vote. You should clarify whether that apparent hypocrisy has any possible reasoning behind it that actually negates the "hypocrite" argument.

In this case, my reasoning was that early in D1, votes have less meaning and there's little reason to not be voting someone. At the end of the day, when it's time to choose a final lynch candidate, it doesn't particularly matter whether your vote comes off and immediately on someone else or if you take a few days to make sure you make the right choice. And, in fact, at the end of the day, you need to take more care with your vote so you don't accidentally foment a wagon you don't actually support. And that's where I'm at--I need to make the "right" choice and not just slop my vote wherever.

annoyed: MoS

for pettiness

[MrBuddyLee]

>.>

[MrBuddyLee]

Shteven's so argumentative and contentious he looks protown to me. (I was fooled by a player like this in LO2 however.) If I had to peg two scum I'd probably go with Albert and HungryJoe. My hesitation on Albert is that he posts a lot and on varied topics, shows a fair amount of curiosity, but I'm concluding that it's for appearances and not for scumhunting purposes as it doesn't actually move the game forward very often.

TCS seems borderline pro-town to me.
Inhim, can you please weigh in on the leading wagons--not just the people on the chopping block but the quality of the cases made by each player on them? I know it's a bit of work, but I don't have a good sense for your postion right now other than that Guardian is scum.

vote: Albert

YB has posted a lot since my last evaluation of him, and I need to reread him to see if he's still smelling townish.

[MrBuddyLee]

Shteven, does it bother you that your #2 suspect is on the wagon with you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert, I just read your last week of posts and you haven't given us a summary of who's scum and who's not. You've snarked around with Yos and Guardian and tried to foment the wagon competing with yours.

If you are really town, give us your legacy: the list of people to go after tomorrow and why. And next game, don't play like a second-rate court jester.

ps. I just went a month back... still nothing significant. A little babble about Shteven. If you want to survive, post your founded suspicions.

[MrBuddyLee]

MOS, after you hammered the following people in your initial post:

Guardian

is hard to read, but

I don't think he's being very helpful.

I completely disagree that Glork is being overdevensive, and I don't see why he thinks YB is town. guardian agrees with MBL's bad case against TCS,

not looking good for him

. Keeps changing his position on BM,

not making a lot of sense here

. I think

Guardian changed his tune

about Glork's reaction to BM attacking Guardian early because of the pressure from Yos. Why did Guardian say there was nothing to comment on? There has been plenty to comment on...

Albert B. Rampage

= neutral, leaning protown, not the greatest play so far, though, WHOA. Why does he want a claim from someone he doesn't even think is worth lynching yet?

WTF is wrong with him, he's soooo scummy now.

Why is he defaulting to more experienced players? What if those experienced players he is relying on are scum?

Giving your own opinions are important, because you don't know who to trust...unless you are scum...

You haven't touched or analyzed their play

AT ALL

since. And you're dinking around on me. If I die and turn up town, you're going to get DESTROYED tomorrow. Get it together, man, or keep up the crap play if you're scum.

mFOS: MoS

[MrBuddyLee]

Albert, your list looks like coin flipping unless you give reasoning for each line item.

[MrBuddyLee]

Two consecutive posts from Jack two weeks ago:

I really don't think guardian is the play.

That's because your scum with guardian and yb obviously

...

Jack has also played as if he's stuck with the false dilemma of choosing between Albert and YB over the past two weeks. No insight on any other player--Jack is either very lazy or is scum.

mFOS: Jack

[MrBuddyLee]

A note to the SK--there has been some discussion about whether you'd target scum or town at night. Let me make this a little clearer for you:

18 players remain.
Assuming no vig, there will be a lynch and two nightkills a "day" unless a doc gets lucky. That means:
d2: 15 remain, d3: 12 remain, d4: 9 remain, d5: 6 remain

If you

don't

go after scum, town will have to lynch at LEAST 3/4 mafia in order for you to be in a winnable situation with 6 players remaining. If town only hits 2 mafia by then, the 6 remaining will look like this:

scum, scum, SK, 3 town

and you will be pretty much sunk.

So I strongly recommend that you take that chainsaw and act like a vig tonight--others may not agree but I see you as town's ally for the first several days here. Good luck nailing scumbags.

ps. If we have a bad vig, the situation is even more dire, and you could be put in a no-win situation by day four.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, nice to see you're watching--can we have some of your suspicions re: people beyond the top 3 wagons? If you're town and get ganked, you'd want that on the record for tomorrow anyway.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL needs killed tonight.

Damn are you sloppy. I'm really the second-scumiest player alive? Go play in traffic.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, I'm implying that in your last 15 posts you've just repeated over and over again "Yogurt is scummy Yogurt is scummy" and it's an entirely 2-dimensional analysis of the game. You're obviously popping your head in to read other people's remarks on the situation, but you're not interested in commenting on anyone else's words, only Yogurt's.

[MrBuddyLee]

UNOFFICIAL vote count

Albert B. Rampage - 8 - Yosarian2, xyzzy, MrBuddyLee, HackerHuck, Yogurt, Shteven, TCS, inHim
YogurtBandit - 6 - Sarcastro, Billy Twilight, HungryJoe, Jack, Glork, Albert B. Rampage

Guardian - 2 - Battle Mage, AutumnEvenings

MrBuddyLee - 1 - Mastermind of Sin
Shteven - 1 - Guardian

Deadline: July 10th noon EST

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, I'm doing last-minute rereads to see what additional info I can thwap down before night comes. I misinterpreted your interaction with Glork because I was isolating your posts, but I want to post things people are doing in this final push that are/aren't pro-town. For example, Albert having the energy to check the thread and post 20 times but not the dedication to provide the simplest of reasons behind his 5-6 suspicions is scummy.

I honestly don't know who is scum and who is not yet

It's difficult to invent reasons that sound real--when you're scum. Give it a try, Albert.

MBL, Sarc, Yogurt, Glork, Hungry Joe. Two sentences on each, how tough is that compared to "MOS, save meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"?

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, Albert, why would you say this about someone you think is likely scum:

How can BillyTwilight and Glork's posts not convince you ?

Shouldn't you be viewing Glork's posts with healthy suspicion if you find him scummy?

[MrBuddyLee]

If neither are scum, then what we have is two goofy players getting run up by town fed up with their goofiness, and it's given scum great cover. However, there are a few hallmarks of town to look for:

Town wouldn't be singling out those two at this point--they'd be looking at all 18 players to see who's lurking, who's manipulating, who's trying to appear active, who's tilting at windmills.

Town would also be concerned about leaving a legacy if they're one of the 2-3 players who die tonight. If scum dies tonight they're more concerned with not saying anything that'll give their partners away upon reread.

It's a loooong way to deadline. 14 hours is an eternity. Get to work.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, can you please give me four things right now:

1) Your opinion of Albert's play.
2) Your opinion of Albert's alignment based on the way other people are dealing with him.
3) Your opinion of YB's play.
4) Your opinion of YB's alignment based on how other people are dealing with him.

I know you've given this piecemeal, but I'd like to see it summarized. Shouldn't take you more than two minutes.

[MrBuddyLee]

Your reasons for finding your top 5 scummy are terrible, Albert. You listed your reason for finding me scummy as: a quote from MoS on his initial read of the game. That's it, entirely.

You basically rely on other people to do the work for you, and give little or no original insight. This will allow you to point at those people after a bad lynch and shrug and say, "i dunno, i was just following them."

Original content from you on why you find various people scummy or town, Albert, or I am not very likely to change my vote.

[MrBuddyLee]

I am SO proud of the SK. Guardian, you should have known when MoS attacked me in his initial post and kept his vote on me for most of the day that he was scum. I am delicious spicy town, not unlike a chipotle remoulade, and probably wasn't nightkilled because scum knew I'd be protected after my stellar D1

In all modesty though, Albert as town was disappointing and humbling. Lots of people ignored MoS's bizarre behavior yesterday, and he treated a few people unevenly, including Guardian and Albert. Much to think about in light of these recent discoveries.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't think Yogurt has the panache to post this as scum:

I actually belive MoS is the only one on the bandwagon that is Pro-town for the most part, since his case one me contains more info from himself and less info from Billy's Pbpa, but maybe that just what he wants.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL needs killed tonight.

In light of what we know now, care to revise and extend your remarks?

[MrBuddyLee]

I think Glork was brown-nosing MoS towards the end of yesterday, but it's still possible.

[MrBuddyLee]

I need to read his posts again to be sure, but my gut tells me Shteven is town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Autumn, why would you ask Shteven to waste time on an analysis post of me when you've said yourself:

I do think that it's highly unlikely that he (MBL)'s regular mafia.

Also, in retrospect, what do you think of Glork's shout out end of D1 to a hypothetical vig to kill me last night?

Huck, why are you trying to cast suspicion on me as well? Do you think I'm likely scum after the way D1/N1 went down? That spat between MoS and I look like distancing to you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Oh, and hey scumbags. I know you guys are trying to nail the SK at night--just wanted to remind you it's not me. Pinky swear.

SK, if you off me I will be sorely disappointed. Vegas odds put me at 50:1 to come up scumbag, and you're still in the business of exterminating vermin.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Glork

I'm not feeling the sincerity.

[MrBuddyLee]

Bad vibe from Autumn--she doesn't think I'm teamscum, but repeatedly expresses willingness to lynch me on the offchance I'm an SK. Not really playing the odds there, and I sense a hint of scummy suspicion-entrenchment. Keep your eyes on her, gents.

[MrBuddyLee]

So yes, I want the SK dead, and yes, I think there's a high chance you're the SK, so, by the transitive property (or whatever--it's been ages since I was in high school), I want you dead.

<3

I know this is some serious WIFOM, but would an SK really draw that much attention to himself specifically in relation to the existence and behavior of an SK?

1) Each night as Mafia chooses their kill, I have to be near the top of their list simply for the reasons you describe. SK is about survival, and they'd have to outlast a fistful of scum to do it.
2) Come endgame, if by some miraculous happenstance I'm still alive, and assuming I'm the SK, wouldn't I be significantly vulnerable for the same reasons you describe?

So yeah, WIFOM, but I don't think optimal SK play is to behave the way I have. I understand however that if you're mafia you'd be fine with having that niggling doubt resolved by killing off a townie who's presently confusing you about who to nightkill.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, several players have expressed willingness to lynch a player whom they believe is an SK. Why did you single out AE and not anybody else?

Because without rereading the game again, I presently understand attacks on me better than attacks on anyone else. I've played in a specific manner for a specific reason, and am able to learn quite a bit from the way people react to my posts. With any luck, the SK will also be able to spot mafia reacting to my posts and act accordingly.

EBWOP: Also, you never explained your GlorkVote when I asked you to elaborate. I'd like you to do so.

It's a pure vibe thing. You're playing somewhere in between your typical sloppy D1 town/scum play and your pro-town D3 play. A little too conscientious for my tastes, given your history Trust me, though, I WILL reread your post history today or tomorrow in time for a thorough eval before deadline. I'm not thrilled with Shteven, YB, Guardian, inhim lynches based on what I last read.

[MrBuddyLee]

I was lurky town in Committee Mafia. I've just been busy.

So I'm your #1 suspect a few days before deadline? Fascinating.

[MrBuddyLee]

Sarc doesn't sound like he's scumhunting.

InHim's posts read genuine. I'll be impressed if he's scum. I don't like the press on Guardian unless he's a cop, but then again, he's from the school of "lynch claimed docs".

I've gotten a lot of pro-town vibes from Shteven. His posts are also laden with the effort of frustrated/antagonistic town on the defensive.

If Glork isn't town, he won't survive to endgame the way he's played, so that's good. He'll either get crosskilled or lynched in the next day or two.

Guardian is off the table for me.

Spryte's posts have a hint of township to them.

TCS's posts are aggressive, but possibly in a way that indicates scum hunting SKs. Not my choice for today, but he deserves a reread and hairy eyeball tomorrow if he's still alive.

Huck: you're playing the way you criticized me for playing in Mormon2. Lurky-scummy. Plus, you slipped here:

YB was a pretty good lynch suspect yesterday and it seems like the fact that he was being bussed by MoS is keeping him off of the chopping block.

"fact"?

mFOS: Huck

Please replace Battle Mage.

If Twilight is scum he's quality scum and deserves to survive a few more days.

I have a reason for thinking Jack's town, but I don't like his suspicions.

Autumn's fishy, possibly just misguided. Her modest defense of Glork is good news because it means they're probably not part of a scumteam together.

Yogurt doesn't come across as particularly scummy to me.

unvote, vote: Sarcastro

[MrBuddyLee]

Hi.

Not sure the Glork claim was necessary--which makes me wonder if it's a calculated gamble by scum. I was leaning towards answering LML's question "nope, no cop in this game" so I don't see why Glork was so sure he was dying soon. Worst case scenario there's another cop and Glork has to tapdance a little. And why did the Paragon investigate three innocent players as cop? You'd figure he's a better scumhunter than that...

The votes on me are particularly terrible. I suggest you all go back and examine their foundations. Particularly in light of my relationships with the many many deceased in this game.

I skimmed to catch up--please don't expect this post to cover nuances. I'm sure I missed some things here and there, but I think this is my only game remaining, and I'm sure to catch up quickly.

ps. You guys raced to lynch Guardian yesterday--I was gone for ten days and you already strung someone up. Lame. Some of you didn't particularly care about EVERYONE's opinion on the situation, which would have been a tool you could have used to track scum. Those who didn't evaluate EVERYONE are suspiciously incurious. Take your time and find the three dirtbags, please.

pps. Lynching either SK or mafia would be delicious at this point. Our numbers are dwindling and I no longer consider the SK our friend. (Even though he went after a significantly possible scum last night.)

[MrBuddyLee]

Fine, lynch me impulsively and hand the various flavors of scum the game. Hurry!

I just got back from 12 days in the desert. I'm not going to make perfect sense right off the bat after skimming what's happened. Give me some time here to read the game and see which manipulative bastard didn't REALLY believe Guardian or Huck were scum. I also want to reread people's arguments in favor of voting me to see which have even the slightest ounce of merit. I've played a VERY protown game thus far, and you guys are borderline retarded for finding me scummy. If you have the time, please clarify your cases so I can see which of them ooze pus. Thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yos, have you played well this game? Sure doesn't look like it to me, but I'd like to hear where your mindset's taken you. You failed to comment on the two dead scum before they died, and I believe most everyone you've suspected has turned up dead and innocent or confirmed innocent by our possible cop. And you found me townish recently but thought it fit to choose this time to FOS me for some trivial junk?

*strokes fake beard*

[MrBuddyLee]

If Glork is scum claiming cop, and he's accidentally listed the SK in his cleared innocents, he's a dead man.

If he's SK claiming cop, he may have accidentally named scum in his list of innocents, in which case he's a dead man.

I guess it kinda makes sense that Glork's actually a cop. I think you could have gotten away with breadcrumbing your results and living another day, though, buddy.

[MrBuddyLee]

TCS, please explain your vote for me in the context of several things:

1) My interactions with MoS.
2) My vote for Sarcastro.
3) My behavior towards Guardian and vice-versa.

You said a few posts up that you've sucked this game, but you also said that town wins when you stay alive as a townie. I don't understand how this is possible if you suck, so please try NOT to suck. You should definitely consider placing your votes more carefully with only 10 players remaining and 3 scumbags alive. Odds are, scum could quicklynch me right now if they chose to. I'm tempted to think your carelessness is indicative of something sinister.

[MrBuddyLee]

Dear tards voting for/fosing me:

Sarc and YB were neck and neck when I did a reread and decided to vote Sarc yesterday. Are any of you of the opinion that that was a bus? Keep in mind that if YB had died instead (and not as scum), there would be 3 scum alive right now out of 10 players remaining.

Also, do you really genuinely think I would be making such a fuss all game about an SK if I were the SK? Puh-lease.

TCS, did you miss the part where I said Glork-cop makes sense to me right now? I still haven't reread all the relevant posts, but an initial analysis points to feasibility. It also points to the fact that he's sucking at scumhunting (further evidenced by his vote for me ). Then again, there aren't that many prospects, so I suppose I need to endure and deflect the suspicions graciously at this point.

[MrBuddyLee]

Wow, another vote with no stated reason. I may need to leave this site for good if this is the standard by which we play.

[MrBuddyLee]

Leaning towards Kinetic-scum at the moment. Read the post history and watch the tides shift.

Glork's case pretty much has MBL dead to rights.

On the off chance you're town, I have to warn you that Glork's wrong about me 90% more often than he's right. He's like a clock stuck permanently on midnight, and he'll be right in three hours and again in fifteen. His metagame on me basically states, "if MBL is catching scum, he's scum," and mind you this is re: a player who's every bit as good at catching scum as Glork is. Translation: the metagame is retarded. (And Kinetic "bought it" hook line and sinker.)

Glork, you're wrong AGAIN, and I hope you'll figure it out soon if you're actually the cop. Please compare and contrast the "busing" of Sarc with the busing of anyone in Kelly's or Stoof's game.

Yos, thank you for making sense. If you're town, please remember that there aren't that many townies left who actually know how to hunt scum, and if you lynch me you'll be crippling your side badly.

[MrBuddyLee]

Tell me, MBL. Do you have any last thoughts or requests before you die?

I don't plan on being lynched today, so you'll have to muster all your cocky powers of incorrectitude to pull it off. And on the off chance that you manage it, you'll have led the only two lynches of me as town, something you shouldn't particularly take pride in, seeing as how I'm so easy to read and all.

[MrBuddyLee]

Analysis, starting with the jackassery more commonly known as the shoddy reasons for presently voting me:

TCS: voted Albert, Twilight, Glork and Guardian all D1. Willing to lynch Shteven, inHim. Says MBL wants to suicide. Votes YB. Thinks Glork's the SK. Lobbies against a Sarc lynch. Says remaining three scum are Glork, Twilight, Huck. Presses YB again, then Twilight. Then sucks up to Twilight, presses Guardian lynch. Then votes MBL for commenting on Glork as possible fake cop.

Summary: the MBL vote is dreadful: out of the blue, not supported by any substantial evidence, ignores ALL his previous suspicions. Total wagonny action. His major presses have been against Albert, Glork and Guardian, all innocents. He defended Sarc and ignored MoS completely.

Caveat: He's "been investigated innocent".


Glork: Major presses against Guardian, Shteven, Guardian. Followed MBL onto Sarcastro immediately after voting MBL. Finds it "highly unlikely" D3 that MBL is a member of the mafia:

I believe that both other Mafiates were off of the Sarcastro-lynch

Said this:

Yos, rationalize for me why it's a good idea for Guardian to fakeclaim Doc as mafia and then hammer his scumbuddy Sarcastro.

then voted this:

Unvote, Vote: Guardian


A townie breadcrumbing to set up a fake doc claim is not an explanation that flies with me. At all. Now it DEFINITELY seems as though he's making things up and changing stories as he goes along.

Then, boasts idly:

I think that HH is very likely Mafia (prolly the last Goon), and that Guardian is the SK. I'm not sure who the Godfather is yet, but after those two are out of the way, we can figure that out.


GG, scums. You've been paragon'd.

How embarrassing.

Votes me today but admits his gut on me is disastrously terrible:

I felt the need to note that reaction because my gut is usually fairly accurate. There are, however, exceptions, and MBL is likely one of those exceptions.

(Never clarified this, as he promised to.)
Claims cop with innocents on inHim, Yos, TCS (at a time when 2/3 remaining scum are inv immune.)

Changes track from earlier (also see above "highly unlikely" quote):

I'm actually trying to decide if MBL makes more sense as the SK or as a Mafiate. I've seen indicators of both

His case for me as a mafiate is backed primarily by this observation:

He has a tendency to bus and to try to act like a turning point against scum. His behavior towards Sarc seemed that way to me.

Which is pretty much the textbook definition of MBL as a good townie. Nice job, ace, you spotted a townie who was early to the wagon on scum. Feather for your cap incoming, crack out next year's trophy for the engraving.

Summary: subtly breadcrumbing cop all game would be a reasonable SK play, but current claim exposes him to more risk than I'd deem optimal as an SK. Currently playing at a way-below-average level with respect to scumhunting. Tried to take credit for the Sarc lynch though the only case he made was: "lurker!", followed me onto Sarc but is currently trying to make the case that I was scum trying to appear like the momentum-swinging vote on Sarc. Didn't touch MoS. Has wavered dramatically on whether I could be mafia or not. Pretty much your run-in-the-mill shoddy player this game, currently breathing heavily in the dark and fantasizing about lynching me. (incorrectly to boot) Claims he chose his N1 inv target RANDOMLY after a 50-page day?

Kinetic(BM)
voted Albert, Guardian, Yogurt, mostly Guardian. Found Glork scummy, Shteven townish. Lurked for two out of 4 months.

Kinetic reread and found the three scum to be: Glork, Manaspryte, Guardian. (SOLID SCUMHUNTING, MATE!)

Meh, I don't disbelieve Mana's claim at this time, I still think it was not the time or place to make it... But I'm still mighty suspicious of Mana at this time.

Weird as hell.

Makes a sizable case against people as scum based on voting patterns. Voting is something that can only be used against mafia, not SK, making this a mild SK tell on Kinetic. First definitive statement:

'm fairly confident TCS is part of the mafia.

Actually took the time to read and understand BM's play across multiple games in an attempt to deflect suspicion of BM's lurking in this game.

Interesting comment considering 2/3 remaining scum are inv-immune:

as I see it, going after the innocent cop results at this time is just a waste in time

And after Yos points out that my Sarcspotting doesn't look like busing:

Glork presented evidence that ML has done just that before, many times. Glork's case pretty much has MBL dead to rights.

Yes, boy genius, I've been #2/3/4 on scumwagons "MANY times". In two games because I was scum. In 20-30 games when I was town. My record as town is outstanding, because I spot and kill scum. To imply that me being in a pivotal spot on a scumwagon is a scumtell on me is not only retarded, it's incredibly insulting and I primarily hold Glork responsible for that slight but Kinetic's weak-minded in this instance for sheeping onto Glork's weak "metagame".

Also, mild "cop" direction:

If you live the night Glork, could you check BT out possibly?

Bad form mate, there's a goon out there with a godfather to protect and you just resembled that remark.

Also, day-after "regrets" that sound like he knew he was lynching a townie:

So now when I realized Guardian had to be lynched again, honestly I was trying to explain to him how much of a fuck up he made. So I wanted him to completely understand I really didn't want to do this, but for the betterment of the town I had to.

Weird.

Jack: pretty much settled on Shteven and inHim as scummy D1/2/3. Didn't find Guardian scummy. Tried to slow down the Guardian lynch. Then changed his mind based on Guardian's flailing. Posted this:

Glork, could you explain your case on MBL? I haven't seen any scummy posts from him, the only think scummy thing is his lurking but that's not a huge tell.

And then voted me in his next post, apparently entirely based on Glork's magnificent Pied Piper impersonation.

Summary: No comments on MoS, mild protection of Sarcastro. Inconsistent opinion of MBL. Decent curiosity and suspicion but rested on laurels and hasn't gotten much in the way of results.

And the guy who FOSed me for thinking Glork's failure to scumhunt this game is a possible scumtell:

Yos has pursued Albert, Glork, Guardian, Yogurt, inHim and Shteven. On me: "In general, I don't get a scum vibe from him." Presses against Glork's massclaim request. Defends yesterday's quicklynch of Guardian:

dragging our feet until every single person in the game has weighed in would just kill the momentum of the game and lower the amount of interest in the game, the particiatpaiton, and therefore the town's chances of winning

Sketch. You believe in lynches on D4 without getting all players to weigh in on them? Absurd and borderline unbelievable--smells like defensiveness over your participation in a shitty lynch.

You just tried to undermine the credibility of Glork, who I think is at least 95% likely to be the cop, with some of the most scummy craplogic I've heard from an experenced player in a mafia game in a long, long time.

You think it's craplogic to point out that the "Paragon" isn't even remotely accurate this game if he's town? I suppose that's correct if you assume that the Paragon's lost his knack on this site. Essentially, what you guys as a whole are telling me is that I'm scum because I'm accurately scumhunting and Glork is not scum though he's sucking at scumhunting. Welcome to bizarro-world, goodbye Occam's Razor.

Oh? How have you played a "very protown game" so far? Please clarify.

self-analysis--MBL: I think my post D1 about MoS's inconsistent suspicions was read by the SK and directly led to the SK killing MoS N1. It was probably the most severe indictment of MoS's play before he died--totally opened him up to chainsawing. In my analysis post yesterday I nailed MB and Guardian as town and Sarcastro as scum. I never OMGUSsed Autumn and ended up concluding correctly that she was misguided, not scum. Basically, in a game with two scum factions remaining, I've been right about the alignments of five of the last six dead players (I made a mild case for Huck as scum). Making me the most accurate scumhunter in the game at the moment, and I have 4 votes on me. gg, geniuses.

[MrBuddyLee]

Bingo bango bongo.

*** note to metagamers: impending scum attempt to appear involved in a lynch of scumpartner ***

vote: Kinetic

[MrBuddyLee]

BT

looks

like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather. My vote stands and I don't see any reason for changing it.

OK cool, so please summarize your argument against me, taking into account my interactions with MoS, Sarcastro, and the various dead innocents. If you think I could be either SK or mafia, please be sure to specifically make cases for both, as they should be quite different from one another.

Let's see if you really believe the snap you're spouting.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, I'm town you goof. Keep an open mind ffs and give us your alternate worldview just in case I turn up nightkilled as a poor innocent townie. Maybe when you discard your first instinct (which is fubarred) you will come through with some brilliant insight lying under the surface.

Not terribly likely I'll be nightkilled tonight though... it's significantly likely that both mafia and SK will axe you tonight if you're truly cop, which would save us a nightkill. For either side to risk letting the other kill you, resulting in no cop kill, would be dangerous.

I'm not trying to get Kinetic lynched just yet, but I do see his comments as inconsistent and worth further investigation. Most of you haven't played terribly pro-town this game, so there's no reason to zero in on Kinetic when there are 2-3 other scum to trick into slipping up.

Shteven, why on earth are you satisfied with an MBL lynch? If you're town, I've been one of the people who's actually noticed that and pressed the real scum when others here were hawking your wagon on a daily basis. Doesn't accurate scumhunting count for anything anymore? You've all become way too cynical, and are WAY too paranoid about the bus. Sometimes, what appears to be scumhunting is exactly that. While you're considering this, Shteven, please weigh in on whether you think my involvement in the Sarc lynch bore hallmarks of scum play.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, I'm not insisting that successful scumhunting eliminates me as an SK candidate, but I sure do think the tenor of my play should eliminate me as a serious candidate for mafia. A few of these less astute players don't seem to have picked up on that nuance though, which is why I'm harping on it. To win, we have to kill two scum in addition to the SK in approximately three lynches:

10 now
9 after lynch, 7 after NKs
6 after lynch, 4 after NKs
lynch or lose most likely with 4 remaining

So how will the SK get killed? Mafia will likely get two shots at night plus two shots at swinging lynches.

How will the mafia get killed? SK will get two shots at night plus two shots at swaying lynches.

So yeah, if you see a disproportionate push on a lynch, it's entirely possible it's mafia pressing for someone they know isn't mafia but could be the SK. Same thing vice-versa but less obvious to spot as the SK tries to swing lynches of mafia.

Bottom line, next to targeting obvious scum, you want scumhunters alive and the people who've been lynching town dead. In this game, there aren't many scumhunters and you should examine their play a LOT more carefully before flippantly volunteering to off them.

[MrBuddyLee]

BT

looks

like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather. My vote stands and I don't see any reason for changing it.

OK cool, so please summarize your argument against me, taking into account my interactions with MoS, Sarcastro, and the various dead innocents. If you think I could be either SK or mafia, please be sure to specifically make cases for both, as they should be quite different from one another.

Let's see if you really believe the snap you're spouting.

Paging Kinetic to a white courtesy phone.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not telling you to assume I'm right. I'm telling you that I will, under no circumstances, vote for Kinetic today.

I think there's a 50% chance this statement will come back to haunt you. There are 10 players left and 3 scum. If you and I and at least ONE of your confirmed innocents are town, there is a 42% chance Kinetic is scum. If you and I and at least TWO of your confirmed innocents are town, there's a 50% chance Kinetic is scum.

Glork, please list people you would and wouldn't consider lynching today. In order, preferably. And also, please answer the question I asked earlier about why my behavior towards Sarc/MoS can be interpreted as busing in your mind.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, please explain why you voted for me even though you posted right before that saying you didn't see any scummy posts from me. Thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

As to you MBL, I understand what you're trying to accomplish with that question. One, you want to try and humiliate me away from voting you. You are trying to say "Well if you can't do this then you're scum, so no one should believe you." Two, you think that no matter what argument I make, you'll find some way to break it down and call me scum because of SOMETHING. and Three, it will be a huge distraction from you. That is all that I see in the people attacking me and trying to wagon me right now, a huge smokescreen, a distraction, and I refuse to participate.

This is the worst paragraph I have ever seen posted in a mafia game. Congratulations. Ostriches around the world will flock to your book if you can rush it to market before Christmas.

Most of the reason I find you scummy MBL is that your interactions in Mafia 60 and in here are eerily familiar. With Glork so sure of your guilt, I'm going to have to side with him on the "Who do I believe more" scale.

Hey Glork, could this kid polish anything else up for you?
Hey Kinetic, please clarify how my interactions in this game and in Face to Face are eerily familiar. Quit being a damned coward and play the game.

Hey anyone who likes to sheep along with Glork:

And you saying that you're going to follow me is bad because in the event that I'm wrong in my gameplay (which I was), then there's too little to hold you accountable for... except for the fact that you decided to take a backseat to actively scumhunting.

The fact of the matter is that my confidence in my ability is at an all time low right now. After LO2 and this game and a couple of other recent/ongoing games, I'm just very frustrated with myself and with mafia in general. I keep second-guessing myself to an unreasonable degree and when I finally settle on *something*, it always seems to be the *WRONG* thing.

Glork, if you really doubt your abilities lately (as you should) please remind Kinetic of his responsibility to carry his own water.

'Nuff said about that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Just a recap for anyone who thinks Glork has any ability to read me whatsoever:

Speedy KQ's
Glork was certain MBL was scum, MBL was certain Glork was scum
Glork was scum, MBL was town

Jelly Mafia
Glork mislynched the doc and a townie D1/D2 then died
MBL was scum

Face to Face
Glork ran up the vig and the cop to claim D1/D2
He hit scum D3, mislynched D4, didn't vote to lynch scum D5
and end of D5 thought an innocent townie was the godfather and final scum but a cop investigation saved him from mislynching
MBL was scum

Space Monkeys
Glork was positive MBL was scum, MBL was positive Glork was scum
MBL was town, Glork was scum

Kelly's Mafia v. Werewolves
Glork didn't suspect MBL and lynched a townie D1 then died
MBL was scum

Lights Out 2
Glork was 100% positive MBL was scum and got him lynched
MBL was town

Basically, I've been right about Glork's alignment in every game I've been town. He's never been consistently right about my alignment. He admits my playstyle rubs him the wrong way, which probably explains why watching him play in games with me feels like watching Clouseau play darts.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that I want to hear YOUR cases against me, not Glork's cases, because the latter is the blind leading the blind. He simply does not have an effective read on me no matter how much he pretends to. And yet Kinetic and Jack cite Glork's lame and ineffective metagame on me as the reason behind their votes. Original arguments and analysis, please.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think you're a good scumhunting facilitator, Glork. You often ask excellent questions and in general change your game up to keep scum off balance. But as evidenced by this game and Lights Out 2, you are prone to homing in on me far too furiously. (And I lean towards thinking you're town this game, so this would be error on your part and not deception.)

I agree that in two of the games in which you were town and I was scum, you had moments where you found me scummy. But arguably, you have been more ardent about my scumminess in the games in which you've been wrong. You'll have to forgive me for chiding you somewhat harshly when you're so completely wrong about the fact that I'm not an SK successfully hunting a rival scumgroup, I'm a townie successfully hunting a scumgroup. (I have no clue who the SK is at present.)

Do you REALLY think sane scum would have pushed the absent, unendangered, quality player Sarcastro over the bumbling, wagon-leading, self-incriminating YB? Go take a look at my Sarc vote again in context and tell me with a straight face that was a play scum would make. Forget any SK arguments at the moment... WAS THAT PLAY CONSISTENT WITH SOMETHING SCUM WOULD DO?

[MrBuddyLee]

EBWOP: I should also point out that, the day after my death in Kelly's Mafia/Werewolves game, I told MBL via AIM that I was sure he was scum He obviously was. So even though I died that night, I actually had an accurate read on MBLscum as a protown player/observer.

And I predicted yesterday that the Sox would win a World Series in this century. I recall that conversation with you re: Moses, and I'll give you partial credit for that observation, though honestly I hated that game because my scumpartners were entirely absent and unhelpful. I consoled myself by catching scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

If you thought sarc was more likely scum you'd push him over yb as sk. You've been defending yourself with this crappy kind of logic all day.

Jack, did you bother to read my post? I asked SPECIFICALLY in relation to me as mafia, ignoring the possibility of SK. A few of you think there's a significant chance that I'm actually Mafia, which I see as way off-base and a borderline braindead opinion. Not once have I said that my scumhunting genius precludes me being SK, so you can take your accusations of craplogic and stuff them.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think the argument about "you were wrong in the past" " no that's a misrepresentation blah" is really not on topic and unimportant. There haven't been enough games to draw conclusions from, peoples ability to read other people improves over time, etc. MBL, you can't claim that glork

can't

think you are scum when you are scum. The avenue of defense you've chosen sidesteps other accusations.

In other words, MBL is avoiding the important issues and going off on side-tangents in an attempt to obfuscate the case on him. Ergo, MBL is scummy. Ergo, he is probably scum.

Precisely.

I think an ad hominem is appropriate here considering the absurdity of your stances here. You guys are retarded.

Glork has cooked up one of the shittiest metagames I've ever seen, in which he tries to convince you guys that he's this swami at reading MBL and that when I'm 3rd or 4th vote on scum D3/D4/D5 that I'm most likely busing a scumpartner.

Being a very good townie, I know that more often than not, when I'm alive D3/D4/D5 I'm voting scum and staying off mislynches of innocent townies. Which is precisely Glork's metagame that has him and 2-3 of you believing I'm scum in this game.

I defend myself by saying 1) the metagame is retarded and 2) Glork's ability to read me is utter shit, and you try to tell me that this defense is not on topic and unimportant? That I'm avoiding other accusations? I'll go back and see if there are any legitimate accusations that have been ignored, but for the most part, TCS, Jack and Kinetic sheeped onto Glork's idiotwagon of me specifically because of Glork's metagame in relation to Moses and Face to Face. Me calling Glork an incompetent metagamer is DIRECTLY relevant and in response to the wagon that was on me.

I'd like to say I'll laugh at Glork for sucking if I get lynched, but truth is I won't. I'll be pissed if that happens because it'll mean I wasn't good enough of a mafia player to convince you lot not to follow an inaccurate bloviator.

[MrBuddyLee]

Here's Jack's stated case against me as SK: (he apparently thinks Kinetic is scum and needs to die before me)

I haven't seen any scummy posts from him, the only think scummy thing is his lurking but that's not a huge tell.

In conjunction with the MoS kill though, it's more suspicious, looks like mbl thought that he'd given a clue to his being the sk with that mini-fos post and wanted to counteract that. Nightkills make sense, meta is interesting

MBL's first few posts after getting back were horribly scummy.

Glork's accusation is convincing, and pointed out several things I hadn't noticed about your posts before.

I get the feeling you were sorry you'd posted that you were suspicious of MoS when you killed him, and worried people would finger you based on that.

Your posts talking about the sk feel like you are trying to distance yourself from the role in this light. I can see you making the kills you did and glorks opinion that this is how you playstyle as scum doesn't help you

First of all, let me get this straight.
I posted the following on D1:

You haven't touched or analyzed their play AT ALL since. And you're dinking around on me. If I die and turn up town, you're going to get DESTROYED tomorrow. Get it together, man, or keep up the crap play if you're scum.

mFOS: MoS

So you're saying the following:
1) Knowing that MoS was scum, this is a post more likely made by an SK than by an astute townie.
2) You're saying I NKed MoS and afterwards was sorry I posted suspicions of MoS and somehow took some action to counteract that? What action are you referring to?
3) You're saying that despite the fact that I publicly exposed MoS as likely scum D1, that I was more likely than any other player to act upon my comments and choose to NK MoS? That no one else likely took into account the HUGE scumtell I spotted and decided MoS was a good person to get rid of?

Moving on, you say the nightkills make sense if I am the SK. I agree, if I was the SK, I would have strongly considered killing at least a few of those people. MoS for scumminess, Autumn for being on my tail, and Huck for being significantly scummy. Considering that I've been vocal all game about SKishness, doesn't it also make sense that the actual SK might decide to pin some kills on me? I mean, they're almost too good a fit for the "MBL is SK" story. You can respond, "sure MBL, that's great WIFOM" but seriously, an SK can't afford to attract that kind of suspicion AT ALL or they will DIE at the hands of scum or a lynch. So yeah, sure, you can try to convince yourself that I'm the highest profile SK ever in a 25 person game, and I can try to convince you that's WAY too much risk for any sane SK to try and endure. They have to survive about 12-13 killshots, and I'll tell you, putting their head on the block like I have is NOT the way to survive 12-13 killshots. You say that my posts talking about an SK feel like distancing. Thank you for accusing me of being the sloppiest SK self-distancer ever, I appreciate the compliment.

You say the first few posts I made after getting back were horribly scummy. I wouldn't take tremendous issue with that, because I essentially raced to get back in the game and contribute something. I passed along some gut feelings and some genuine angry reactions to Glork's insulting metagame of my play. Take them for what they're worth.

Finally, your last few chunks of argument nod sagely in agreement with Glork's observations without going into any detail about which points you agree with and which you don't. That's weaksauce and will allow you to point the finger lamely at Glork on the offchance I go down in flames as a townie:

Damn Glork, guess your metagame really did suck ass. Way to lead us all astray.

But... you didn't have to agree with me.

Oh cmon, you were AWFULLY CONVINCING! And you're GLORK!

Jack, what I'd really like to hear from you are five things:
1) After I post an upcoming detailed analysis of the Sarc vs YBwagon, I'd like you to assess how likely it is that I was scum busing Sarc.
2) I'd like you to explain why even though all players had access to my comments about MoS, that I was the most likely person to kill him N1.
3) Please clarify what tapdancing I did re: my mFOS of MoS.
4) I'd like you to dissect Glork's argument about me being scum and state which points you agree with and which you don't.
5) Do you see my attacks on MoS as busing AT ALL?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork: Could be teamscum or SK. That being said he was rather pivotal to getting Sarcastro lynched, and with one of the doctors saying they protected him and a mafia no kill, we have too many inconsistencies.

I was also pivotal to getting Sarc lynched... in fact moreso than Glork, yet you used that point in defense of Glork and you used it to accuse me of being scum. Inconsistent much?

I also found it odd how you(Kinetic) didn't comment at all on your mislynch of Guardian at the start of today. No remorse, no "oh well, he was a dumbass". You were the most strident attacker of Guardian, chided him relentlessly for his terrible play, and then not a comment to start today? Looks significantly avoidant.

So now when I realized Guardian had to be lynched again, honestly I was trying to explain to him how much of a fuck up he made. I didn't think anyone else was going to at least do that for him, since he REALLY didn't understand exactly how big of a deal this was. So I wanted him to completely understand I really didn't want to do this, but for the betterment of the town I had to. Hell, that is among the reasons why I held my vote for as long as I did and tried to deny doing it...

It sounds here like you really didn't think Guardian was scum. Yesterday you said you thought there was a 75% chance he was scum. Dissonance.

I wasn't sure Glork was cop until Mana came up dead. As soon as that happened I did this equation in my head:

Mana is the only doc. Glork was the scum target N2. Guardian wasn't the scum target because there is no 2nd doc. Glork cannot be mafia. Glork must be cop.

Why couldn't Glork be the SK in this equation? Because YOU'RE the SK?

Its much more likely he's SK, but there isn't no chance he's mafia either.

If MBL does come up mafiascum (or even Godfather, like I'm thinking now)

BT looks like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather.

So, Kinetic, you went from thinking I was "much more likely SK" to "Godfather, like I'm thinking now" in a span of 47 minutes? And then became entirely convinced over the next 24 hours? I'd love to hear the thought process behind that shift of opinion.

Side note: mild town tone in between the lines of Kinetic's posts. Ugh.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not sure this has been stated clearly, but Manaspryte's protection of Glork N3 doesn't indicate in any way shape or form that he is the cop. He could just as easily be the SK based solely on that series of events.

In my opinion, the only argument against Glork being SK is that it would be terribly risky for an SK to claim cop. But scum had already targeted him once and will likely target him again now that the doc's dead. At this point, Glork-SK's only chance of winning the game would be to continually point out likely alternative NK targets to the mafia in hopes that they won't kill him. This would jive with the fact that Glork may be doing more "SK-hunting" than mafia hunting at present--which would be in an effort to convince to take shots at a hypothetical SK instead of at "the cop". A godfather might even endure the risk of another investigation for a night shot at the SK, and if Glork-claimed-cop gets lucky and lynches one scum and NKs the other, he can coast to victory.

I need to think this all the way through to see if the theory has any holes. I don't forward it as significantly likely yet, I just forward it as something that crossed my mind.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, I find your squeamishness about discussing SK vs. mafia theories curious. We all know that scum knows I'm not scum, and the SK knows I'm not the SK. The more I get people to talk about the relative chance that I'm SK or scum, the better I can gauge whether they're falsifying their "beliefs". ESPECIALLY considering there's some evidence out there that has at least three people saying I'm unlikely to be one particular faction.

It's gotta be hard for you three scummy jackasses out there to keep trying to pin your own faction on me when you know you're full of shit. And believe me, if you keep fabricating, I'm eventually going to smell your bullshit as it runneth over. So pin, pin, pin away.

And curiously, rather than risk falsifying your beliefs, Jack, you're refusing to give them on the matter. Or you're just an obstinate townie trying to make my job difficult. Please play along in the future if you're town, thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

Show all posts by Kinetic,

Post subject: 43, 44, 47

[MrBuddyLee]

Hey, cool, check out those notes! Kinetic found me one of the two most pro-town players on August 29th.

Gee, what happened between now and then? Oh yeah, Glork posted irresponsibly. And Kinetic sheeped. Good job to both of you /salute

Glork, if you're gonna post under the influence, the least you could do is not drag good people down with you.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack, there's not a hell of a lot of difference between town play and SK play, as I've pointed out in previous posts. Both are hunting scum. I'd be FASCINATED to hear anyone make a successful argument in defense of themselves not being SK.

In fact, why don't you start. Jack, what evidence is there that you are NOT the SK?

[MrBuddyLee]

side note to townies and the actual SK:

scum are obviously hoping against hope to nail the SK today so they can lynch the cop tonight and face a 6 town 2 scum scenario which would essentially be a day from LoL. Keep an eye out for anyone overly excited about hitting the SK right now...

[MrBuddyLee]

Another thing to take note of, peoples:

scum know most alignments and won't try to pin down most people--they'll let many slide. keep an eye out for those who have been focusing narrowly the past few days...

[MrBuddyLee]

Kinetic, I didn't take you out of context at all significantly. You made your entire shift from "MBL is most likely SK" to "MBL is most likely godfather" in a few hours based on one piddling post from Glork that said:

"MBL is not only likely to be the SK, but his behavior is certainly NOT indicative of him being non-mafia"

It's absurdly inconsistent--put politely, you are a sapling in the wind. And it's very possible you're scum with no true convictions. Why would a townie allow their opinions to be so entirely run by one player?

[MrBuddyLee]

Given my level of behavior and interaction/conflict with other players, do you find me likely to be the SK?

Please clarify this quote, Glork. What about your behavior/interaction/conflict makes you less likely to be the SK?

[MrBuddyLee]

Another thing... if Glork is SK pretending to be cop, a survival tactic is to identify a likely mafia goon and convince them he will NOT investigate them tonight. That way, scum won't fear his "investigation result" and Glork-SK can survive another night while taking a shot at mafia and hopefully clearing them out in the next day's lynch.

This would explain Glork's inexplicable refusal to find Kinetic scummy--he's actually placating Kinetic so he won't fear a night investigation and therefore won't kill Glork tonight.

Paranoia? Maybe, but we'd be fools not to keep it in mind.

[MrBuddyLee]

Is the entirety of Glork's case against me any good? Let's see:

He called SV's death an "odd" kill choice. I went after him for this on D1 -- it indicates an attempt to distance himself from the SK's actions by making people believe that, because MBL doesn't understand the motive for killing SV, he likely did not kill SV.

OK, so instead of ignoring the nightkill I made, I associated myself with it. Dammit, I should have just kept my mouth shut and no one would ever suspect I killed sv. Thanks, Glork, I'll keep that in mind for next time, thank god for guys like you to teach me how to play SK. I suppose you have a metagame on me for this as well? "When scum, MBL tends to express confusion about the nightkills he's just committed." Dammit, I really need to wisen up and stop playing like

a complete retard

.

He asserted that the SK should be going after scummy players, and then congratulated (or at least pointed out that the SK was following him) when MoS died N2. This is odd, because MBL assumes that the SK killed MoS because the SK thought MoS was scum and therefore was following MBL's advice. It is entirely possible that the SK was hoping to hit power and "missed" and hit a scumbag instead. Yet MBL assumes that the SK had A) deduced that MoS was likely scum; and B) hit MoS beacuse he thought that MoS was scum. Now, couple that with this post, and it gives me strong incentive to believe that MBL is an SK who just decided to off MoS there and then. And for reference, here is the "good job SK" post to which I am referring.

Did MoS give you any power tells, Glork? I'd love to see them. I'll be a monkey's uncle if after the game the SK tells us he killed MoS because he acted like a mason/vig/cop/doc. If I was the SK, here'd be my thought process:

"Hmm, MoS is all over my ass, what the fuck. Maybe he's the cop! Yeah that's it, oh shit he's attacking me left and right and voting for my ass 5 times today and... phew I didn't get lynched yeah let's kill him tonight cause that won't reflect badly on me at all whatsoever no sirree bobby. Subtlety is mah middle name bitches!"

Except I'd be forgetting the part where cops get innocents on serial killers. So I must have picked up a mason tell on MoS, right, Glorkie baby?

Continued next post. This is a laugh riot.

[MrBuddyLee]

The N3 death on AE is interesting. AE was definitely pointing at MBL as an SK, and then she got Chainsawed. He also openly tried to convince us not to take her word for things and describes getting a bad vibe on her, all in this post. Again, if he really thought AE was scum, her death would not only fit in with his "SK should be hunting scum" ideology, but would also serve to silence one of his harshest critics.

Yup, I fooled you guys the first time by killing my harshest critic, so OOPS I DID IT AGAIN! I figure if I keep killing the PERSON MOST LOUDLY PROCLAIMING I'M THE SK maybe nobody will notice and I'll survive all 13 kill opportunities to endgame.

Last night's HH kill makes sense if he thought HH was scum, like I did. Unlike what Shteven claims, I think that there was a pretty decent case for HH being scum -- enough so that I was obviously willing to investigate him. Unfortunately, explaining this ahead of time means that any thoughts MBL gives on HH's death will be chock full of WIFOM. What I will point to, however, is this:MBL wrote:
Huck: you're playing the way you criticized me for playing in Mormon2. Lurky-scummy.
...from his last post from yesterday. A) Hypocritical (at least in my opinion) that he calls HH lurky-scummy. B) An indicator that he finds HH scummy, and that HH subequently died.

Yup, I did find H-H scummish. Why would you even bother throwing in the cheap shot about "lurky-scummy" being hypocritical? It's totally irrelevant to your point here, and besides, I believe I posted about 10x more content than Huck so I wasn't being hypocritical in the least. But back on topic, TCS, Yos, Jack, YB, BT, inHim TOTALLY ignored Huck, Shteven found Huck a saint and you and I found Huck scummy. It's interesting to note that your conclusion is NOT that I am wise for being the only player to share your opinion, or that the other players are suspicious for NOT sharing your opinion or for ignoring Huck altogether, but rather that I am scummy because H-H died. I suppose if that's the case then I should ratchet up my suspicion of you as SK, since you and I were the only people who as theoretical SK expressed suspicion of Huck.

A few other random things:MBL wrote:
Glork, if you're scum please don't NK me.
That stuck out to me. Vested interest in not being killed. When I think about it more, though, it seems less of a tell than one might think, because I doubt MBL consciously and intentionally would hint-drop SK. He would, however, want to dissuade possible mafia from killing him, though, so I don't see that as being a major issue.

I'll be sure to put this one in a list of tips for solid SK play: "Please don't NK me" is an effective persuasive tactic used by SKs worldwide as a subtle means of discouraging the other faction from NKing. Don't forget to say please or the imploration won't likely have the desired effect."

Seriously, Glork, does it even cross your mind that you're trying to make these kindergarten cases against a quality player? Like five of these points you're making are the kinds of insights the kids would use on Blues' Clues. "You overtly asked mafia to leave you alive, so you are likely the SK." Yes, Glork, I'm a player who lacks all subtlety whatsoever and will directly ask opposing factions IN THREAD for what I need in order to stay alive. ffs, use your head, man.

continued...

[MrBuddyLee]

Finally, the metagaming arguments from Glork:

MBL's fervence D1 with hunting mafia piqued me. In Kelly's "Moses in Egypt" game, he was part of one scumgroup and dedicated himself wholly to busting everyone in the other scumgroup first. I remember him telling me on AIM (after I had died in that game and guessed that he was scum) he was pretty much hellbent on finding the last werewolf. A weak meta-tell at best, but another thing that stuck out to me. MBL and I are alike in that, if we're scum in a game with two factions, we're going to do our absolute best to nail the other scum faction, because A) people think you're more likely to be protown since you're hunting scum; and B) you don't have to waste nightkills on the rival faction.

In any game I'm in, I'm trying aggressively to find the identities of anyone I'm not aligned with. I'm not understanding what the metagame is here, because in this game I've been nailing scum and poking around for the SK, who is obviously a lot harder to find due to lack of associations with teammates. Can you please explain how my play this game is inconsistent with good ol' pro-town scumhunting MBL? Do my posts indicting MoS and Sarc, and my posts presciently clearing other death-confirmed innocents, and my posts mistaking Huck's alignment, ring false to you?

Another meta-argument for MBL-scum. In Mafia 60, I explained that MBL has a tendency as scum to stay away from the big wagons/lynches and keep his vote either nowhere or on somebody off-wagon. This post, and MBL's subsequent vote on Albert (about two RL-days later), made me wonder if he was trying to actively avoid doing the same thing here. As you can see, I had also noticed that MBL was withholding his vote. His response was to stop witholding his vote and place it on the Albert-wagon.

Wait, so I traditionally avoid bad wagons as scum and then because of some retarded metagame you forwarded, I decided to plunk a vote down on a shitty wagon? Question: if I'm SK, how did I know Albert was a shitty wagon? Answer: I didn't and couldn't, because I didn't and couldn't know his alignment because he was a townie. If I was scum he could have been SK. If I was SK he could have been scum. If I was town he could have been either. Please explain more clearly what metagame you're trying to float here, because it makes no sense to me.

Oh, and the main thing "for" MBL being a mafiate isn't really a point specifically for him. He has a tendency to bus and to try to act like a turning point against scum. His behavior towards Sarc seemed that way to me. He tried to be a turning point on both CDB and CES in Mafia 60, and it very nearly allowed him to ride to victory

You are correct, I tried to be a turning point on CDB in F2F, even though I wasn't. It didn't quite work. I WAS the turning point on Sarc. Here's how the D2 race progressed:

4 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight)
3 votes for Sarcastro (Glork, AutumnEvenings, Shteven)

YB votes Sarc (4-4)
Jack votes YB (5-4 yb)
TCS expresses preference for YB but doesnt vote
jack unvotes yb (4-4)
jack votes yb (5-4 yb)
glork unvotes sarc (5-3 yb)

It's 40 hours to deadline
mbl votes sarc (5-4 yb)

So what you're telling me is that given two choices:
A) 40 hrs before deadline, MBLmafia sees his scumpartner safely at 3-5 and decides to put him at risk by upping the vote to 5-4 instead of placing his vote on any of 14 other players
(or)
B) 40 hours before deadline, MBLtown does an analysis post, finds Sarc scummiest, and places a vote to push Sarc forward as an alternative to YB, who MBL doesn't find particularly scummy

Given those two choices, you think (A) is more likely? Can you please explain WHY ON EARTH you think (A) is more likely? Because to be honest, if I had a scumpartner do to me what I did to Sarc, I'd be tempted to kick them in the throat for such disastrously terrible team play.

[MrBuddyLee]

Conclusion: Glork's case relies on the theory that I am a moronic SK who:

* Drew an association in thread between myself and my N1 kill, sv
* N2, chose to kill the player I'd made my most vocal case against D1, drawing attention to myself again
* D2, clumsily drew attention to the fact that MoS was quite possibly killed due to my indictment of him D1
* N3, chose to kill AE, the person who'd been calling me SK all D2.
* D2, overtly begged scum not to kill me in hopes it would earn me, the SK, another few days of survival and allow me to fly under the radar.
* D1/D2, made a big deal about how important it was for the SK to go out and hit scum, and then went on to kill both scum N1 and D2.

I have never been given the role of SK as far as I can recall. Ask yourself if, given the chance to be an SK for the first time, you would choose to play it this high profile from the outset, essentially daring the mafia to NK you every night. Ask yourself why the mafia hasn't killed me by now if they really think my D1/D2 behavior was indicative of a true SK. Ask yourself if any SK in history has survived a 25-person game by utilizing such an in-your-face strategy.

So yeah, ask yourself whether you REALLY think I'm the SK, or whether you're letting someone lead you around by the nose based on evidence that's too good to be true. Evidence that would lead you to conclude that I'm essentially a moron with no hope of victory if I'm the SK. Glork, you said my play showed desire for self-preservation--I'm amazed you can say that with a straight face.

As an aside, ask yourself whether you want to kill off the only person to be right about both scum so far.
Shteven--right about Sarc, wrong about MoS.
Yos--wrong about MoS, ignored Sarc.
BT--ignored both.
YB--wrong on MoS, right on Sarc.
Glork--right on Sarc, wrong on MoS.
BM(Kinetic)--ignored MoS and Sarc.
Jack--ignored MoS, overtly protected Sarc.
inHim--rightish on MoS, ignored Sarc
TCS--ignored MoS, overtly protected Sarc
MBL--right on MoS, right on Sarc

It's kind of amusing to note that the two possible cases against me both have me playing as a complete moron. Either:

* I'm mafia scum inappropriately and mercilessly attacking and lynching my scumpartners and pointing them out coldly to the SK and lynch mob.
(or)
* I'm an SK who's pretty much worn an orange and black SK vest since day one and made the WORST POSSIBLE NK every night as far as maintaining his low profile is concerned.

And in actuality the correct answer is:

* I'm a pro-town player who's directed the SK to hit MoS, was EASILY the person most responsible for the Sarc lynch, discouraged lynching Guardian, correctly read manaspryte and autumn, and attempted unsuccessfully to draw mafia nightkills because I'm not a cop, doc or vig.

Order of suspicions:
scummiest

Kinetic
Twilight
TCS
Jack
Glork
Yos2
inHim(AlyG)
YB(Mole)
Shteven

least

[MrBuddyLee]

Got to say, I'm amused by you taking responsibiltiy for "discoraging lynching Guardian", when you weren't even around when we found out that Guardian was lying about being the doctor. Like, you really don't think that that little fact MIGHT have changed your mind about him if you'd been around when it happened? Sheesh.

Yeah, it's nearly as amusing as the fact that I was in the middle of the Nevada desert with no Internet when HackerHuck got chainsawed, but we won't harp on that cause it'd make this game a lot less fun. Have you met your snarky quotient yet today, Yos, and are you finally ready to start hunting scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

When, exactally, did you get back?

Left Burning Man on Tuesday 9/4 noon, trailer jackknifed just short of Winnemucca 6pm, hung out at Red Lion bar and scored free drinks from the 6'4" volleyball player bartender 1am, learned she was a lesbian 2am , drove home 1pm Wednesday, got home midnight, logged in.

I only post that so I'm not avoiding your direct question. Obviously there are ways I still could have swung a nightkill were I SK.

[MrBuddyLee]

Of course I'm against my lynch tomorrow or any day... I'm not scum of any flavor. Let's hit scum and then worry about tomorrow.

Billy, do you think there's a significant chance that Glork's the SK?

[MrBuddyLee]

I understand your opinion, and I also believe that you need to get on the record with regards to a lot more people. We're a long way from lynch or lose, so let's hear your associations and complete list of suspicions.

[MrBuddyLee]

Prod Mole and AlyG please.

[MrBuddyLee]

beanbagboy's posts are fascinating. Reading them just now, I'm tempted to find Kinetic(BM) and YB NOT members of the mafia team.

Glork, I don't think BM is scum. Granted, he is acting very stupid, but metagame wise he's like this in other games I'm in with him.

I really don't go for albert as scum. I think it's pretty much a null tell how he's acting, he does this all the time, or, at least it seems consistent with the other game I'm in with him. Granted, it's ongoing, but still, that's enough to keep my vote where it is.

I think his defense of YB is not so unfounded. I think it's possible that YB is just being n00by.

YB has turned himself around in my mind, from null tell noob to townish. Not definite, though, just seems townie.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think novice scum are more likely to have trouble dealing with other novice players, and the kinder sort are prone to having pity and clearing other "noobs". The regretful tone in bbb's analysis of each of these three players looks similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if he knew they weren't his scumpartners. It's not a ton to go on, just a hunch based on a read of the guy's play, which is softhearted.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why isn't MBL dead yet?

Because five people realize you're way off-base on the topic. What say ya contribute a Plan B there, tiger?

[MrBuddyLee]

In other words, MBL is avoiding the important issues and going off on side-tangents in an attempt to obfuscate the case on him. Ergo, MBL is scummy. Ergo, he is probably scum.

You posted this crap two days after I returned from two weeks away. I posted with more dust and residual toxins in my system than Chris Farley's corpse, and you leaped to the attack. Fair enough, but after I read the thread and posted reflective thought, meeting accusations and theories head-on, you've made little to no comment. It honestly looks more like you want an easy string-up than you want to know my opinions on others' alignments.

Scummy or lazy? Only you know the answer, and if you're being lazy, please quit distracting me from the pursuit or actual scum. Thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

But at this point, it looks like things are going to go against my wishes, and we'll end up mislynching today.

Why would you say this? If you're town and I'm town, then lynching anyone else gives us a 38% chance of hitting scum. If we're both scum, then lynching anyone else gives us a 12.5% chance of hitting scum.

Are you scum, Glork? Cause otherwise I don't see why you think we're headed for a mislynch today. If I'm the SK, are you saying your detective powers are so weak right now that you can't point us to one of the two remaining mafia out of eight players remaining?

Fishy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Anyone know if stubbornness to the point of nonsense is more a hallmark of pro-town or scum Glork? He's really not the person I want to be focusing on, cause he'd be a silly lynch, but his approach to this game at present irks me to no end. One-dimensional is the term that comes to mind. He appears to be more interested in trying to win arguments than finding scum, and that "correctness" is a tad scummy to me.

Glork, I don't find you fishy because you can't find scum this game so much as I don't ever recall seeing you say you couldn't find two scum in a group of eight before. I just scrolled through and it seems you find me scummy, Kinetic a good guy, and that's about it. How bout some texture?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork: I would choose Jack first, Yos second as your investigations targets.

I predict Yos will come up town.

Billy, I noticed a few of the things you mentioned about Kinetic's notes. I also noticed a protownish tone in between the awkwardness. I also hand it to you--if you're mafia you just pulled an outstanding head fake. I'm more inclined to think you're SK at this point.

Yos, TCS, inHim, MBL
kinetic, bt
jack, shteven, yb, glork

Investigate Jack please. YB would be a close second. Before Billy's last post I'd have had him #2.

[MrBuddyLee]

This sucks. I don't want to vote Glork, Shteven, Kinetic, BT. I don't particularly want to vote Yos, inHim, TCS because of the investigations. That leaves two players I thought gave off townish vibes D1 and possibly D2: Jack and YB.

Time for a reread of five players, but for now,

unvote, vote: TCS

[MrBuddyLee]

And I'm prone to bouts of stupidity as scum?

I want to hear more from you. I just stated plainly that my scumlist has somewhat narrowed to five, and it'd be naive to eliminate three of those from contention today.

[MrBuddyLee]

So I suppose you'd propose we lynch uninvestigated people today and tomorrow?

At this point, any of you is 33% likely to be scum. Investigated people cannot be the goon, therefore that reduces their chances by about a third. So TCS, inHim, Yos are 22% likely to be scum, putting the other 6 at 39% each.

I'm not lynching Glork or Shteven today. Twilight just made a post in his favor and I'd rather not lynch him, and Kinetic's come across roughly town. That leaves YB, Jack. I've found YB townish all game and Jack varying from townish to recently scummy. I'm not going to take your advice and zero in on Jack as my exclusive lynch target for today. The plain old odds say you're 40% less likely to be scum than him, but you've also acted somewhat scummier than him, particularly early in the game. Have you acted 40% scummier to balance out the odds? Not sure, but I do know I want pressure on you and I'd like to see some of your thoughts on gamestate.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, why would you eliminate Billy as a possible SK?

[MrBuddyLee]

Yet another post that pings my "Glork's the SK"-dar.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yos, if you've been reading my posts you know exactly how I feel. I think Glork as scum would have nothing to lose at this point by claiming cop. He was already nighttargeted, and probably will be again unless he comes up with a compelling reason not to target him. "HIT THE SK, ELIMINATE A NK" is a perfect argument for him to use in order to get scum off his case and chasing anyone else.

Is it LIKELY that he's SK and not cop? He acted weird D1/D2 and hasn't been playing a great game as scumhunter. You whined about me attacking him for that, but you also know that an SK will take whatever kills they can get instead of rocking the boat. I'd put it at "possible, not highly likely" which is why I've explicitly stated I don't want him lynched today. I'd be fascinated to hear your arguments about what CLEARS Glork from being SK though.

Since when is it muddying the waters to be thorough? Sheesh.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't think I've ever said it's LIKELY that Glork's the SK, I just think it's possible, and a possible explanation for his stubborn retarded insistence that I AM THE SK.

If he hadn't claimed cop already, I think he'd have been the NK target tonight now that the doc is dead. You'd think (and I did start of day) that claiming cop would only make his situation worse, and that's entirely possible. But there's a manner of thinking in which if we knock off the goon today, the "cop" would no longer be a threat and a claimed cop could watch scum and town hunt the SK til the cows come home. Also, if a claimed cop is not going to investigate the goon tonight, then scum could afford to take a shot at a potential SK instead of at the cop, which would make sucking up to a likely goon a decent survival strat.


Mostly, I happen to know that Glork's off his rocker today and I'm:

* frustrated because he's been an errant Don Quixote tilting at my townie windmill before
* curious to know why he's so pigheadedly wrong
* wary that he's a good enough player to pull a gambit like this is he had to in order to survive

And as I've said before:

He's really not the person I want to be focusing on, cause he'd be a silly lynch, but his approach to this game at present irks me to no end.

I do have to defend myself against his utter wrongness, but I'm going to focus more on picking out the three scum so I can cackle and point gleefully when the game's over, win or lose.

[MrBuddyLee]

YB:

he and beanbagboy were very obviously friendly start of D1, not sure they'd have done that as scum

seems very relaxed, i've seen him in scumchat as stressed scum, relaxed town

YB's 25th post strikes me as townish. Nuanced, not reading phony.

really hammering on jack. doesnt seem too phony. I'm thinking they're not scumpartners.

he's noticing who's voting for who and asking them about the votes. and at reasonable times

calls out scum (N9V) for lurking

thinks TCS is scum, makes a decent case

does a pbpa on me, doesnt find me scummy at all

shteven, albert, BM next scummiest 3, kind of popular choices but meh

bitter attack on TCS, Oscar if it's distancing, bravo

asks me why i'm voting for scum (N9V). Risky play if YB is scum.

inquisitive towards MoS upon replacement. second instance of going out of his way to associate with known scum. bold? town.

confirms vote on TCS 6 times but goes off to look for more suspects. protown.

points out plessiez as a lurker. Third time associating with scum.

draws attention to replacement of plessiez-scum

replying to MoS, points out sarc's voting for him. so brazen if scum.

pbpa on jack, finds jack very scummy and lurky

asks sarc why the vote on YB, replies to sarc's lame explanation for YB vote, asks if all 4 scum are on his wagon, replies twice more to sarc then to MoS. neither sarc's nor mos's replies look like chatter with a scumpartner

jack says "let's just lynch YB", YB gets pissed

jack demands claim, YB claims vanilla

goes after suspicious voters on his wagon

tells MoS that MoS is scum connected to twilight somehow

D2

"Well, Whatever MBL said to the SK mustve Told him to go after scum."

"Im quite frankly sick and tired of you(Glork) ignoring shtevens questions and acting like a bigshot with false cases. vote: Glork"

first to vote sarc, reason: sarc's OMGUS

glork says YB definitely not SK

YB says tcs, inhim, jack are the three scum

Conclusion: Don't think he's scum at all. Way too bold in his interactions with known scum. If he was SK I'd expect him to lie lower--he's been high visibility and aggressively trying to unravel the puzzle.

[MrBuddyLee]

Jack:

FOS of weak known scum for inconsistency

"I'm not finding Glork very pro town. Don't agree with many of his posts."

finds BM townish

gets the feeling Glork is faking suspicions, calls glork overdefensive, votes Glork for hypocrisy re: MBL

votes scum, says he was scum with said scum before

finds guardian albert yogurt and shteven scummy

defends TCS for being deliberately scummy. odd if they're scumpartners.

i dont like his read on yogurt (he votes yogurt for the pbpas)

thinks town is lynching the bad townies while scum lurks

"~n9v~ def lurking, I might remember him lurking as town, he needs to post more"

votes me (in agreement with MoS) for finding glork scummy for a "typo". Bold if Jack and MoS are partners.

sees billy as town, follows billy back onto YB

now finds albert, shteven, guardian not so bad

agrees with MoS about guardian being outrageous not scummy

asks glork why shteven instead of YB

D2:

"I think it's a mistake to base our suspicions on what MoS did."

"glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. "

points out a slip by sarcastroscum

shteven, inhim top 2 suspects

saw yb as townish for persistence

fos of glork for saying game going well for scum

"I don't think mbl is scum, he posted enough yesterday."

blatantly pushes both YB and inHim over sarc

side note:

Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

gotta be scum on that, and two are dead...

D3:

"there being so little case on sarcastro I can't see why scum would vote him over yb. Unless they though they could clear themselves by lynching him."

"I'd bet at least scum is among hh-kinetic-guardian. Quite possibly 2." (oops)

switches to think guardian is scum

knew glork was a cop

follows glork onto MBL, switches to kinetic for fake notes etc

list of suspicions: everyone but glork

checking for advantages to town depending on whether goon, gf or sk is killed first

clearly states he thinks MBL is SK, but isn't voting for him, choosing to go after mafia instead

conclusion: odd that he wouldn't take the easy lynch of scum as opposed to someone he's 50% sure about (kinetic). fairly crappy suspicions over the course of the game unless shteven/inhim/kinetic are scum. My guess--town or SK.

[MrBuddyLee]

TCS:

"So are you Mafia or SK? Feel like claiming Vig?"

"Glork, your attitude makes me think that you're overreaching on handing out false town tells."

His 54th post is townish

"I get the feeling I might be suiciding by hopping so much, but whatev."

"Wow, I just realized how incredibly poorly I've been playing this game."

Becomes positive Glork is scum

Picks Albert over YB cause Glork finds Albert innocent and Glork is scum

"I would suggest chainsawing Glork tonight."

D2:

"Question-- does the SK hitting scum increase Glork's odds of being the SK?" votes Glork

"I'm still somewhat suspiscious of Glork, but I'm willing to let that slide since he's Glork, and if he's mafia/SK he's just going to win because no one is going to have the stones to string him up."
(is this frustrated town or frustrated scum wanting to lynch thte SK badly?)

"MBL seems like he wants to suicide though."

"For my money, either Glork or Inhim is the SK."
(why SK and not scum?)

repeats 4 times that Glork is SK

"Here's how this is going to work. unvote, vote: Glork You can all argue amongst yourselves who is the play for today. I'm done posting until tomorrow."

"I have an idea. Let's all do exactly what Glork says. Glork, who am I voting for? Should I FOS someone? Should I post some more? Should I ask for replacement? Should I wipe my ass? Remember to say "Glork says" or it doesn't count."

"I'm keeping my vote on Glork, but at deadline I prefer a Yogurt lynch over a Sarc lynch"
(hunting SK, preferring protection of scumpartner)

D3:

Thinks Billy is scum

"There were no reasons to lynch Sarcastro yesterday. None. I voted for the player who was the most scummy, and we got lucky to deadline-lynch mafia."

billy posts FOSing Glork, TCS thinks BT is now town

D4:

"Ah, so that's why Glork was playing differently. Now I know."
(please forget that I voted glork 60% of the game)

suddenly sheeping behind the player he's loathed all game, votes MBL

"unvote(s MBL) because Kinetic is on this wagon." (odd, why not vote kinetic in the first place or after unvoting)

"it makes much more sense to go after people who are not investigated innocents than those who are. TY" (overly defensive at 2 votes?)

"While I find Kinetic scummy the wagon on him looks like nothing more than bald opportunism."
(so he didnt like my wagon cause Kinetic was on it, and doesnt like Kinetic's wagon cause i'm on it. Curious logic.)

"I at this point state my willingness to hammah MBL."

Summary:
Lousy to zero reasons for voting. Terrible suspicions all game unless Glork is SK. Modest pro-town tone. A few instances of SK hunting. Could be Godfather or SK imo, but the town tone bothers me. Sloppy and lazy, or scummy?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, you've confirmed Twilight as town, correct? I guess you think he's shoddy town still? What do you think of his opinions? Also, what in Twilight's play is inconsistent with SK?

Are you avoiding analysis on other players so they don't kill you? Your perspective is incredibly narrow this game.

Finally, I thought about why you're not so good at scumhunting in this game, and I believe it's the ego getting in your way--you're too proud in any given moment to remain open to the possibility you're wrong. Have you ever considered losing it for a week or two in the name of science?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, I really want lengthier explanations from you about why you have players in various buckets. Twilight, Kinetic, likely town, etc. With context from the way they played D1/D2/D3/today. I can't help but feel your play has been incredibly thin--for example, you've focused on like 6 posts of mine out of 200, which is unlike you. I find it difficult to believe you aren't picking up on several things about my play D1/D2 that make me much less likely scum of any flavor. Where are your lengthy notes on TCS, Yos, inHim, Jack? You're slack, and that's wack.

Also, I guess you think I'm a different brand of SK than Billy, cause I've stuck my neck out left and right all game in defense of people who could have just as easily been steamrolled. YB, Guardian, Shteven, etc. Can you explain my play as SK in the wider context of the full game?

TCS, you're still on last week's horse. At least find something new and lame to beat.

[MrBuddyLee]

I've addressed your D1/D2 play, and I've explained my meta on why your play is consistent with you being an SK, if not possible Mafia.
1) You're bus-happy

Yay, thank you for the easy one to shoot down. My votes D1/D2:
Guardian (1st on "wagon")
N9V (1st on wagon)
Albert (4th on wagon)
Glork (1st on wagon)
Albert (3rd on wagon)
Glork (3rd on wagon)
Sarc (3rd on wagon)
You call this "bus-happy"? First on scum, third on scum, first on you and on an early meaningless G-wagon, third on you and on a terrible townie, 4th on that same terrible townie. Please clarify your statement that I've been bus happy.

2) When you're scum in a game with two known scums, you're prone to going heavily after one group while largely ignoring the other.

As I've stated clearly several times, it's nearly impossible to distinguish a townie from an SK D1/D2, so I went after scum. Side benefit: crosskills D1/D2. I tried spotting SK with Guardian and was totally wrong. So I went after scum D1/D2, the players who were drawing associations with one another. The SK was probably hunting scum with us, so tough to pick out that early. But anyhow, your comparison to Moses is kind of silly, because in this game the 2nd faction is untraceable early, in the other game, the second faction was my own faction and according to your crappy metagame I'm prone to bus them, not ignore them. So you'd be looking for me to... bus... myself today if I'm the second mafia faction?

[MrBuddyLee]

I challenge you to find three examples of where you defended people who could "easily [be] steamrolled."

Here are my posts D1/D2 defending players who were essentially the leading wagons:

I don't like to lynch solid players D1 if possible.

Guardian

shows potential to be useful if he's town.

Off the top of my head,

YB

is not playing unsubtly sneaky like he does as scum.

Shteven

is combative and has done some things I found sketchy but his earnestness makes me think he may be town.

Shteven's

so argumentative and contentious he looks protown to me.

I don't think

Yogurt

has the panache to post this as scum:

I need to read his posts again to be sure, but my gut tells me

Shteven

is town.

I'm not thrilled with

Shteven, YB, Guardian, inhim

lynches based on what I last read.

InHim's

posts read genuine. I'll be impressed if he's scum.

I've gotten a lot of pro-town vibes from

Shteven

. His posts are also laden with the effort of frustrated/antagonistic town on the defensive.

Guardian

is off the table for me.

Yogurt

doesn't come across as particularly scummy to me.

The only one of the bunch I never defended is Albert, who in retrospect, was primarily responsible for the muddy D1.

Overblown hyperbole, much? First of all, you've barely made 80% of the "200" posts you claim. Apparently we're rounding to the nearest HUNDRED now?

200 was a guess. I've made like 165. Nitpick much?

I should also point out that your response to "I'd like to hear MBL's thoughts on yesterday" echoed about what I'd expect from him as scum. "You people are impatient morons and I'm right and intelligent!"

Guardian as scum could have stuck with the doc claim for another day. The fact that he corrected his bogus claim made him MORE townish in my opinion, and you guys just kind of clobbered him without waiting to get everyone's opinion on the situation. Meaning some of you don't particularly care to draw a full set of connections. Yes, I would have defended him, and no, you don't know jack about me if you don't realize that.

Question re: this:

Yos, rationalize for me why it's a good idea for Guardian to fakeclaim Doc as mafia and then hammer his scumbuddy Sarcastro.

So Guardian's vote for Sarc made him townish in your eyes but my vote on Sarc, which you admit is the pivotal vote, makes me scummy. Nice logic. Oh, I forgot your amazing metagame where any time MBL is pivotal on scum he's busing.

And here's the legendary confidence at work two days in a row as Glork is "POSITIVE" he has the SK dead to rights:

Personally, I am seeing Guardian as a very likely SK candidate right now.

I think that HH is very likely Mafia (prolly the last Goon), and that Guardian is the SK. I'm not sure who the Godfather is yet, but after those two are out of the way, we can figure that out.
GG, scums. You've been paragon'd.

(Guardian,) Your behavior has convinced me that you are very likely the SK. Period.

(MBL,) You are the SK and I want you dead today. End of story.

Why would you eliminate Billy as SK?

Mostly cause you're the SK.

Two consecutive days of SK hunting instead of scumhunting. Curious.

[MrBuddyLee]

And the capper: this flip-flop from the Glorkster:

As both inHim and I previously have pointed out why the SK would (or, in inHim's case, "should") target Guardian,

does anybody else find it odd that the SK went after AE?

Given his self-survival play, the somewhat odd kill choice (which, I think, was a

weak attempt to frame MBL as an SK

)

The N3 death on AE is interesting.

AE was definitely pointing at MBL as an SK, and then she got Chainsawed. He also openly tried to convince us not to take her word for things and describes getting a bad vibe on her, all in this post. Again, if he really thought AE was scum,

her death would not only fit in with his "SK should be hunting scum" ideology, but would also serve to silence one of his harshest critics

.

Seriously, why do any of you bother following this guy? He's tossing darts blindfolded, and can't hit a double to save his life.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why'd I praise the SK for spotting my cool posts about MoS? Cause I was being funny and cocky-retarded, plus I was one of the only people on to MoS D1, so I was half-serious. YB agreed:

Hmm. Well, Whatever MBL said to the SK mustve Told him to go after scum.

I imagine a few others agree as well. Do you see a lot of other public explanation for why MoS was ganked?

By the way, other than my initial vote, I was only on the two scum, you and Albert D1/D2. I'd hardly criticize my own play there, as the only townies I voted for played like donkeys, and I hit both scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

More adamant than mad. I'm not about to let someone who's either scum or way off his game lose this game for town by lynching innocent ole me. I'm also going to remind him and everyone else that his "metagame" on me is insulting and retarded every time he brings it up. And he'll ignore the feedback, and we'll move on.

TCS, what will you do if by some miracle you guys manage to lynch me? I'll come up town, what will your next move be?

[MrBuddyLee]

Thanks for the effort, Rogueben, this game needs the infusion of energy you bring.

I am concerned by the fact that you find pretty much everyone pro-town, but then again I've been telling myself that at LEAST one scum is doing a bang-up job of looking pro-town this game. When you have a chance for a second read or for your thoughts to settle, can you please make an ordered list of suspicions? Two lists, if you think giving separate mafia and SK lists would be productive.

Yos, every time I see you post in another game thread and skip over this one, I get the willies. Do you really have nothing to say or are you waiting to see how the tide shifts? There have been several posts by you where you've gauged public opinion, so to speak, and I'd be more likely to see you as town if you didn't seem to be trying to game the situation to some extent.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yos's last month of play:

* Top three suspects: inHim, Shteven, Yogurt
* "I basically consider Yogurt a better then random lynch but not much more"
* Critiques Glork's "Guardian is SK" idea
* Attacks Shteven for attacking TCS
* Yells at Manaspryte, votes Guardian for lying
* Thinks Glork's town cause Manaspryte protected, possible slip
* Has a genuine sounding debate with Glork, they're not aligned
* No scum vibe from MBL, neutral and "annoyed" by TCS, Twilight "agreeable"
* Sounds genuine talking about scum busing scum
D4:
* FOSes MBL for burden of proficiency (after finding MBL protown the previous day) note: he's sheeping on Glork
* Very defensive about the Guardian lynch he aggressively pushed
* "Oh? How have you played a "very protown game" so far? Please clarify."
(note: he felt this way 10 days ago, why has he changed his mind all the sudden?)
* Four consecutive posts focused on MBL
* Is sick, posting in a daze, sees inHim as unlikely SK for being gone and replaced during NK phase. (note: good spot)
* "MBL: High chance of being the SK. I'll have to read over what he did during the sarc thing yesterday before I come to any conclusion about him being mafia are." (note: he thought I was unlikely mafia two days earlier so this is pure sheepage on Glork)
* sees Jack, Glork as likely town, Yogurt as uncertain
* sees TCS, Kinetic as possible scum and good lynches
* no read on Billy, Shteven
* sees Yogurt, Kinetic as likely goon
* responds to accusation of lurking: "Well, not much has changed, excpet that your last argument with Glork has made you look more SK-ish then you did previously" (note: o rly? well, you're not voting for me so wtf are you doing)

Yos is the only player who hasn't voted today. He didn't find me scummy at all start of day, then Glork did a little song and dance and Yos tested the waters, saying that if "we think MBL bused Sarc, it'd be ok to vote him today". This, right after saying he DIDN'T think MBL bused Sarc.

Yos, you really need to make up your own mind here. You need to develop a read on TCS and Billy. You need to make up your mind on Yogurt. You need to explain why your top three suspects from yesterday are fairly different from your top three suspects today:

* Yesterday, Steven #2, today you have no read at all on him
* Yesterday inHim #1, today Mole likely godfather
* Yesterday Yogurt #3 today yogurt likely goon
* Yesterday MBL likely town, today MBL likely SK

You've asked nearly no questions of your top suspects from yesterday and today, you more seem to be laying back waiting for someone to get strung up.

If you're town, ask Rougeben something, ask CTD something, ask Shteven something, ask Billy something, ask Kinetic something, ask TCS something. These are the people you claim to suspect of being scum.

Why are you so passive, Yos?

[MrBuddyLee]

I've thought you were a likely SK for a very long time.

Have you made that case before today? Why not? And obviously scum disagree with you or else they'd have taken a shot at me by now. (Did they think Glork was SK or cop when they shot at him?) In fact, scum would probably rather lynch the SK than me right now, which is one reason why my wagon's not rocketing into the stratosphere. (Unless scum's also under heavy heat in which case they'd probably take me as a last resort.) If I'm the obvious SK, maybe you should look back and see who tried to get me lynched D1-D3--they're possible mafiates. The SK would have probably enjoyed the cover I provided them, as evidenced by the fact they've been setting me up unsubtly with their nightkills.

I'm astounded that a few of you people really think an SK would play the way I have from D1. It's similar to the fact that no one bothered to ask why Guardian would RETRACT his doc claim yesterday instead of riding it out overnight... the easy answer is that he would have stuck with the claim as scum. The reason I took fire from D1 like this is because I figured it'd draw a scum kill, and if not, no townie would be dense enough to think that conversing openly with and complimenting the SK would be a survivalist strategy.

The doc claimed he protected Glork, on a night where there was a missing scum kill. How does the not increase the odds of Glork being town?

It eliminates the possibility that Glork's mafia. It doesn't significantly change the possibility that he's the SK. But for whatever reason you seem to have essentially cleared Glork as SK. Here's your reasoning:

I can't see a SK Glork doing what Glork did day 2, which was sticking his neck out to defend inHim while attacking Shteven at the same time, when they were both acting in similar ways; at the time, that made me suspect Glork a bit of possibly being Mafia, but a SK, especally one already getting some negitive attention from some quarters, would have no reason to act like that; too risky, too loud, too high profile.

So your case against me as SK is that I've been risky, loud and high profile about being the SK, and your case that Glork's NOT the SK is that he's been to risky, loud and high profile?

So sketchy.

Glork did a little song and dance and Yos tested the waters

Ok, now you're misrepresenting me.

Here are your words in context:

I agree that MBL's sarc vote makes it less likely he's mafia

MBL, please recall Face-To-Face and then tell me that you don't try to bus and then garner credit for it and/or use it to your advantage.

Minor FoS: Yos

for trying to dissuade an MBL lynch. MBL is not only likely to be the SK, but his behavior is certainly NOT indicative of him being non-mafia.

Yos, could you post some more detailed thoughts on.... well, just about everyone?

I'll have to read over what he did during the sarc thing yesterday before I come to any conclusion about him being mafia are.

Weak sauce. Appeasement. Kowtowing. You thought I was unlikely mafia and then Glork put the squeeze on you. Did you even bother to read Face to Face to see if my Sarc vote here and my CDB vote there were at all similar or did you just swallow Glork's faulty analysis whole?

Finally...

Wait...you were gone for TEN DAYS, and you were annoyed that something happened in your absense? That's absurd. There's no reason for any mafia day to ever take more then 2-3 weeks in the first place, and dragging our feet until every single person in the game has weighed in would just kill the momentum of the game and lower the amount of interest in the game, the particiatpaiton, and therefore the town's chances of winning.

This post from a week or so ago really bothered me. You guys offed Guardian in SIX DAYS. Not TEN DAYS, not TWO TO THREE WEEKS.

SIX DAYS.

Your post is apologist to the extreme and if you're town you should be ashamed of it because you were apologizing for mafia's and the SK's rush to lynch an innocent without getting everyone on the record about the decision.

fake edit:

SIX DAYS

[MrBuddyLee]

Alignment: You are an ANTI-TOWN Mafia Member.
Flavor: ______, ________, ________, and _______ (the first being the Godfather) are the members of the Mafia. You may talk at night. Every night, the godfather (or highest ranking official left) may send in a kill.

The Godfather is investigation immune.

Win Condition: When the mafia outnumbers all other players or nothing can prevent the same.

Alignment: You are an ANTI-TOWN Serial Killer
Flavor: You have your mind and your vote. What more could you ask for? Oh yeah. A Chainsaw! You may send in a kill every night.

If you are investigated, you will come up as innocent.

Win Condition: Last Man Standing.

[MrBuddyLee]

We could get rolling a lot quicker if he'd just agree to blindly follow your lead.

[MrBuddyLee]

Got a problem with your suspicions, ace. Which leads me to believe you're more likely scum than previously thought.

You think I'm the godfather. You think TCS is scum. But he can't be the goon, so you're going to have to revisit your analysis. How exactly did you arrive at a worldview where both TCS and MBL were the godfather? Almost looks like you're inventing suspicions without actually trying to evaluate relationships and possibilities.

[MrBuddyLee]

It shouldn't have taken 6 days to lynch him after that point, he should have been dead in 6 hours. The fact that it took 6 days just shows that people at mafiascum have gotten much to slow and hesitant about lynching people even when the choice is incredibly obveous.

This is so far from the truth, it's not even funny. A lynch isn't purely about lynching the bad guy, it's about gaining information for the next lynch and potential upcoming night actions. I don't know why you'd intentionally miss out on several data points by rushing a lynch like you did yesterday, but it's clear you're going to be stubborn about your correctness in the matter, so I'll drop it.

Still riding that WIFOM defense pretty hard, huh?

It's a common sense defense, but you're welcome to call it pure WIFOM if it floats your boat. You basically said I haven't played a survivalist strategy, which is correct, and then you said that an SK doesn't take big risks, which is correct, and then you deny that 1+2=3. Instead you decide that what makes the MOST sense here is that I decided from the start of this game to play 100% the opposite of the way an SK should play. And hope against hope that mafia, lynchers or vig NEVER decided, in fifteen kill opportunities, that it'd be worth it to take a shot at me instead of anyone else.

If I'm not the SK, who is, Yos?

[MrBuddyLee]

That being said, I've already answered your questions to the degree I'm comfortable with. I understand what you're trying to do

1) No, you clearly don't understand what I'm trying to do. I'm town trying to get a read on you and understand your actions, and you're either IGNORING that possibility or you KNOW I'm not scum and you're playing dumb.

Youi won't last very long around here with a modus operandi of refusing to answer questions when you even remotely think the asker may be scum. I don't policy lynch in general, but if I were to ever policy lynch, it'd be nitwits who refuse to play the game. Don't be one of those.

2) Why are you uncomfortable about answering questions from me? All you have to do is speak the truth and everyone should see that even if you misspeak once in a while. (Well, some people might be stubborn like Yos re: Guardian and follow through on "obvious scumtells" you make, but most of us will actually take your remarks in context of your skill level.)

Generally speaking, honest play reeks of township, so if you're town, don't be so afraid of making mistakes in your defense. Go bomber.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork's either the SK or the cop, that's nearly certain at this point. So he's not going to be steering us AWAY from anyone besides himself. If he's the SK, he'll steer us TO overly-obvious SK candidates like myself and away from himself. But you don't have to worry about his minimization of suspicion of Kinetic, for example, being suspicious. He pretty much cannot be Kinetic's scumpartner.

So yeah, Glork's just as interested in hitting the godfather and goon as anyone here.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yeah, I grinned when I read that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Are you kidding me? A scum is more likely than town to know where people stand on things?

...

Glork, would you do me a favor and reread my posts, even if you skim them? I find it difficult to believe you don't see the big picture here or that you could possibly be as certain as you are that I'm the SK. (Which I'm not.)

[MrBuddyLee]

*to WANT to know

[MrBuddyLee]

Rogueben,

You say that TCS's arguments lack reasoning but you find him protown. Can you please explain what exactly about his play makes you think he's townish?

You say Yos has small scumtells but is protown... can you please point out the scumtells and why you choose to think they don't point to him as scum?

Can you please explain how Kinetic has been opportunistic and therefore why you find him likely scum?

You say Jack has little reason behind his suspicions but is protown... can you explain further?

Your #1 suspect is Shteven, and stated reason: flawed logic. Do you think flawed logic is a hallmark of scum, and if so can you give us examples of where you feel Shteven's been using bad logic to ring up the wrong people? Anything else scummy about Shteven to you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Er, you see my play from page 1-34 as scummy? Can you please explain why while it's fresh in your head?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, i'm on page 94 (almost done!) and you are waaaaaaay more defensive than you should be for having (I think) 2 votes on you.

I came back from two weeks in the desert to find that Glork was pushing my lynch. My response was genuine. The guy wanted me vigged on N1 for god's sake, he's not on his game and I'm not going to have his stubborn ass lynch me as a townie for the second time only. And I think I had three votes on me--TCS, Jack, Glork sound about right? With Yos and TCS telling me I'm way scummy? Damned right I'm not going to take that lying down, especially considering this irresponsible lot lynched a townie in six days yesterday.

Not to mention citing metagaming as a primarty defence for why Glork is wrong is just insipid and invalid.

If you're going to open this can of worms, you'd better take the time to investigate the metagame for yourself. Even Glork, in the glory of all his incorrectness, now thinks I'm scum who INTENTIONALLY voted Albert to fuck with his metagame, because me being on Albert doesn't fit his oh-so-genius pattern. (Feel free to read D1 and see whether my vote on Albert is supported by my observations of Albert vs. Shteven/Guardian/YB.)

As for why you might've killed MoS as SK, it's pretty obvious you value your opinions and thoughts higher than God's so naturally when other's didn't echo your sentiments you would take things into your own hands. Hopefully (for you) something will come up in the next 7 pages that will dissuade me or i'm voting for you.

Hopefully is an odd choice of words, as you noted when you decided to qualify it.

And your final argument here says that as SK, I'd have killed MoS because I was the only person to find him suspect? Fascinating. Welcome to the pure WIFOM train--conductor Glork, engineer Kinetic, Yos considering becoming a paying passenger. You're basically agreeing with them that I've intentionally taken actions to make myself look suspicious all game in hopes that WIFOM would save me from being the obvious kill TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

The truth again, for the record, is that as a nondocnoncop, I had nothing to lose by being NKed and the town had much to gain. If/when I turn up town you'll have my suspicions as gospel, to roll with your silly insult, and thus far my suspicions have been more on the ball than most everyone in this game.

Do you think I'm likely to be part of the 2-man mafia at this point, White?

[MrBuddyLee]

A protown, town win oriented, townie should have no problem giving up their life if they know it'll lead the town to a win.

If you lynch me (I am town, and though you dont know that I will state it for the sake of this exercise) you'll be one of the following tomorrow:

* 2 scum 1 SK 4 town (if no crosskills)
* 2 scum 5 town (if scum hits SK)
* 1 scum 1 SK 5 town (if SK hits scum)
* 1 scum 5 town

That is why I'm fighting my lynch. In that first scenario, you guys killing me will have come close to leading town to a loss. In the second, we're in C9 with no power roles, which is proven to be heavily slanted towards scum. (info we have aside) So yes, it's not in the best interests of town for me to fall on my sword at this point. What I'm doing is trying to get some more of you on the record--through your words we will determine today and tomorrow whether your motives were pure. And as for you taking issue with my insulting Glork, he started it

Knowing about it means you could've set it up and waiting to turn incredulous at the mention.

Sure, and yes it's your job to evaluate the likelihood of that. You're forgetting to discuss the risk I'd have had to take by making myself a scum and lynch target each of the first few days.

[MrBuddyLee]

Bad boy. Bad, bad, bad boy.

I was butt-hurt. Seriously.

[MrBuddyLee]

Apologies for what's about to happen here: I've gathered everyone's remarks re: an SK in hopes that the real SK will look phony when talking about other SK candidates.

Jack:

Um, I've never heard of an SK who was night kill immune but wasn't told so by the mod ROLE PM'S IN FIRST POST sheesh

Isn't the SK basically a vig at this point? Wouldn't lynching mafia and having the SK kill mafia or the mafia kill the SK be ideal?

Surely scum want to lynch the sk? Why distrust them for pushing kinetic?

ok. I'm not a fan of the "sv is odd kill choice" type tells (could easily be applied to yos today etc but I'm sure I've seen townies do that kind of thing in the past). I also thought his talk about the sk/congratulating was too wifom to be meaningful. In conjunction with the MoS kill though, it's more suspicious, looks like mbl thought that he'd given a clue to his being the sk with that mini-fos post and wanted to counteract that. Nightkills make sense, meta is interesting vote:MrBuddyLee

But the thing that's important from here is your mentioning that the SK must keep a low profile. This is what I think you were trying to do. You mentioned suspicion on MoS: you thought he was scum. You nightkilled him; he was scum. Now you worry that the mafia will have noticed you and think you are sk. So you do the sk distancing. You claim it's sloppy, but I don't think it is sloppy. You use the wifom argument before, why ignore it now?

I think the gf would worry about the kill and kill mbl, and it's possible that mbl would kill the gf. This situation is advantageous to us.

mbl, all the arguments I've made have pointed to you as sk. It's obvious I think your sk and not mafia. It's also obvious that you'd rather defend yourself from claims that your teamscum then that your sk.

As for why you might've killed MoS as SK, it's pretty obvious you value your opinions and thoughts higher than God's so naturally when other's didn't echo your sentiments you would take things into your own hands.

the lynch for today would definitely be MBL.

note: Jack found me townish until Glork started in on the warpath today, then was "convinced" and made a curious 180. He's also very focused on analyzing the numbers and who will likely kill who, probably a nulltell but something the SK is surely doing behind the scenes.

BattleMage/Kinetic:

This suggests that the SK may be a less experienced player.

lol why the hell would SK-BM be telling the town who to kill AFTER HE IS DEAD.

What makes you assume that MoS was an SK kill?

If there's one thing that seems genuine about Guardian, it is his bewilderedness with regard to other players roles. That indicates to me that he is an SK. Of course, this suspicion combined with his CONGRATULATION of the SK, and his evident interest in the role of MoS, gives me a very strong vibe that he is the SK

Either way you are the lynch for today. I'd be leaning towards SK myself, but if the worst case scenario is you coming up Mafia, i'm still ok with killing you

i don't think you should be directing the SK towards the Doc.

If we believe Guardian's claim (and even if we don't believe it, but think he's SK. A point that is given major credence since he basically hammered Sarcastro)

Glork: Could be teamscum or SK.

I don't exactly know how well I believe Guardian right now, but I felt strongly he might be the SK well before his secondary claim

That's why I voted you, and that's why it stays there. I wasn't sure about if you were the SK before, and honestly I was willing to let that doubt keep me from voting you

the fact the SK keeps killing people who defended you is a reoccurring theme that I wasn't going to bring up originally. But since you so nicely brought it to the attention of everyone else... That was the first thing that had me suspecting you of being the SK. I think you killed MOS with the intention of pointing to him day 2 saying: MoS is town and he defended me. When he came up scum, I think it blew up in your face.

I'll say I'm only 65-75% sure you might be SK

If you ARE mafia, then we know a lot more than if you're SK, so I'd almost rather you come up that. If you come up SK, its not as good as if you were mafia, but its not bad by far.

Note: uncertainty about Guardian-SK seems genuine

[MrBuddyLee]

Yos:

unless the town gets really lucky and the mafia kills the SK, the mafia will kill one pro-town person every day. Period.

Um...I think lynching a SK on day 1 is a great thing; greatly decreases the number of anti-town nightkills with means the town has more lynches over the course of the game and the pro-town roles get more chances to act, and it of course also increases the town's odds of winning by eliminating the chances of a SK win. I don't think I've ever seen someone say "we shouldn't lynch X day 1 because he might be a SK" before...

if a good SK thinks he has an idea who the scum is, he'll try to lynch them during the day (when it'll make him look better) while trying to get rid of pro-town threats to him at night. In any case, even if one were to accept the idea that SK's are as much a threat to the mafia as they are to the town, it would still be a good idea to get rid of a SK ASAP, just because SK's do sometimes win games, even large ones. Besides, the whole idea that you don't want to lynch him because he might be a SK just seems bizzare to me. It's like saying "Oh, better not lynch him, he might be a surivor". Anyone who's win condition isn't pro-town is a GREAT day 1 lynch. Could you explain why you think he's a likely SK?

The way you said it, it really does sound like it could be a subtle attempt to direct the SK to kill guardian so your scumgroup can go kill someone else.

your suggestion that the SK would generally claim Doc is just wierd. A mafia scum claiming doc would be reasonable; a SK claiming doc, though, would pretty much guarentee that he would be nightkilled by the mafia or counterclaimed by the real doc(s) eventually and lose. A claimed doc should never expect to live until endgame, and the SK needs to live until endgame, so claiming doc would be about the worst thing a SK could do.

I know, I know, I just said like 5 minutes ago (before I saw the re-claim by Guardian) that the SK shouldn't claim doc, but it still seems a heck of a lot better and more probable then a townie claiming doc to avoid being lynched.

The point I made a little while ago was that the SK claiming doc would be a bad more for an SK to make, but as far as bad moves go, it's not even in the same UNIVERSE as townie claiming doc would be, heh.

MBL: In general, I don't get a scum vibe from him. AE's theory about him being a possible SK did make sense, but I don't think it's all that strong, and I'm not really seeing MBL as being all that likely to be a mafia member right now.

Pure WIFOM, especally since you're the one making that defense. (IE: if you really think "If I was the SK would I talk about the SK" is a solid defense, then why not talk about the SK while you were the SK while being prepared to make that defense?)

we've got better odds going for one of the people that could be SK or scum,

as InHim vanished on Augest 27'th and was not replaced until September 7th, it seems somewhat unlikely that he was the SK

MBL: High chance of being the SK.

Does it feel to anyone else here that Kinetic might be some kind of scum (perhaps SK) trying to direct the other scumgroup in order to avoid having both groups kill the same person?

I can't see a SK Glork doing what Glork did day 2, which was sticking his neck out to defend inHim while attacking Shteven at the same time, when they were both acting in similar ways; at the time, that made me suspect Glork a bit of possibly being Mafia, but a SK, especally one already getting some negitive attention from some quarters, would have no reason to act like that; too risky, too loud, too high profile.

if he really wanted to try to convince the mafia that you were the SK in the hopes they would kill you, then how does him claiming cop help him do that?

If you were SK, then I would think it quite likely for you you to act like this, trying to cast some doubt on Glork being SK, as an attempt to undermine his attacks against you, in order to make him less of a "confirmed innocent", and in order to create some general confusion over who the SK might be.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a townie mention the possibility of Glork being the SK, but as it seems like a quite unlikely possibility, I wouldn't really expect a townie to spend that much time pounding that point, especally the disturbing way you seem to do it in direct response to him calling you a SK.

your last argument with Glork has made you look more SK-ish then you did previously

I've thought you were a likely SK for a very long time.

if we're talking about someone who could only be one out of the three, like InHim's replacement, who could be Godfather, but couldn't be a Goon or a SK (a slip by Yos here?)

you were trying to plant the idea in everyone's head that the SK was basically a pro-town role who should be kept alive for a while. Which, I should note, is also how the SK has been playing. Your play makes perfect sense as a SK, if you're one of those people who basically plays SK like a vig with the goal of helping the town get rid of the mafia. I don't usually bother specifically SK hunting early on, but still, I really thought I had at least expressed that suspicion of you.

Even if you're right and the scum don't think you're the SK, that dosn't prove anything, perhaps it just means you've sucessfully tricked the scum. And I'm not sure why you seem so convinced that the scum want the SK dead at this point more then they want good guys dead

you thought the scum would think you were SK and kill you, but that no townie would think you were the SK?

playing it really low profile and trying not to be noticed at all dosn't really work as a sucessful SK stratagy. It's not bad as a mafia goon stratagy, because playing it low profile is likely to help you become one of the last 8 or 9 people left if no one notices you're doing it, but for the SK to win you have to make it all the way to the end and survive, and to do that you have to be more then low profile, you have to have some way to survive the part of the game when the town starts lynching off all the low profile people in a process of elimination (as usually happens towards the end of the game). I've been a sucessful SK a few times, and I've never done it by just staying low profile and hoping to not get noticed; you've got to do something else as well to make you a poor end-game lynch suspect, and you've got to do it right from the start.

So, no, I don't necessarally think that you're play is necessarally inconsistant with logical SK play; frankly, in order to have any chance win as a SK in a large game you've usually got to take some pretty big risks, and I could very easily see your day 1 play as an intentional plan to distance yourself from the role and discourage other people from SK hunting right from the start. You're right, it would be risky, but hey, trying to actually win as the SK requires some pretty big risks

SK play is so varied, it could in theory be almost anyone at this point; SK is one of the hardest roles to hunt for intentionally. I've explained why I don't think it's Glork or Inhim's replacement; other then that, it's hard to say

Actually, I'd think that if he was the SK he'd be focusing on trying to get mafia members lynched today, and want to leave likely SK suspects like you alive until later to reduce the chances of the town figuring out his own alignment.

Note: as scum worried about a cop, would try to get SK lynched today, which he's not really doing. Actively working to eliminate SK suspects, which could screw him in endgame, so less likely to be the SK himself.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yogurt(Rogueben):

Ithink I caught you. How would you know that TCS is definetly Mafia? Distancing? Perhaps Tcs isnt voting me so it isnt Omgussy and so you ahve one scum not on me? How are you sure that I am not the Sk? Im not saying I am, But I think you are sure im just a bad looking townie.

Hmm. Well, Whatever MBL said to the SK mustve Told him to go after scum.

Wait, How do those kills make sense as YB-SK?

after my read through I have suspicions of you being the SK. The first thing to tip me off was definitely the "I'm SO proud of the SK". The other cases laid out by Glork and others also have some relevant points (I don't like the meta-game analysis though).

SK:
MBL
TCS
CTD
Jack
Shteven
Billy
Yosarian
Kinetic
Glork

Note: Glork pointed out Yogurt's townie claim was a terrible SK claim.

[MrBuddyLee]

TCS:

I'm calling Guardian as SK. Anyone else feeling this?

So are you Mafia or SK? Feel like claiming Vig?

does the SK hitting scum increase Glork's odds of being the SK?

Glork Mafia, Shteven SK?

he's Glork, and if he's mafia/SK he's just going to win because no one is going to have the stones to string him up. MBL seems like he wants to suicide though. (note: what did that mean?)

For my money, either Glork or Inhim is the SK.

I am more and more suspiscious that Glork is our SK.

I think that Glork is the serial killer. And even if he's not, if he's vanilla town, I'll eat some celery (I don't have a hat, and celery is gross).

1) the SK killed mafia
2) Glork has been overdefensive
3) Glork does not appear to be linked to any other players
I think that Glork is the SK

Very black and white one-dimensional, unsupported observations about an SK. Almost seems to be fishing for reactions or for something that sticks. Though his instinct on Glork wasn't bad at the time.

Shteven:

I'm the only one who knows that I am town for sure (mafia could think I'm SK, but more or less, they also know I'm town

TCS: The SK hitting scum would increase Glork's chance of being the SK, but the probability increase is really very negliable. We can't even assume that the SK was intentionally targeting scum, he may have thought that MOS was town.

AE's got something worth going for; everyone's said time and time again that the SK is probably laying low, but we haven't really talked much about people laying low.

In a complete 180 degree turn from the last paragraph, the YB as SK is also interesting. He's certainly NOT been lying low, although he had a pretty good reason to kill MoS.

there's a chance she may have been onto the SK, since the SK had her killed. This will be a bit of a stretch, though may be interesting.

She first gave a long list of people who could be the SK, but followed it up with a pretty long post detailing a case for MBL being the SK.

Vote: TCS
FOS: Glork
FOS: Guardian
*In case I'm wrong it's totally MBL as the SK in the library with the lead pipe

The specific reason why you could be SK is exactly what you posted in your post, trying to say it wasn't a reason. It IS a reason. Let me break down the exact logic: (CASE)

If guardian was mafia-targeted, then he is not mafia, but is Anti-Town, so he is the SK.

The point of the case was to show you have a high chance of being the SK.

And my runner-up for SK is MBL, so guardian's claim of protecting him is quite unnerving.

I definitely agree that if guardian is scum and not the SK, then YB is the next play. But I don't think that's likely.

as an SK really all you need it is to kill everyone. Who dies isn't that important; if you kill all of your enemies, it's evidence that can be used against you. I've never been the SK, but if I was, I really think I'd just /roll for my targets.

planning a power role claim for self-preservation from day 1 is highly suggestive of being the SK.

He may still be a good canidate for SK, but that should be taken to show that I have no good targets for SK, rather than that he is an excellent one. I simply don't know who to place in front of him. TCS could be, but I'd lean towards TCS being scum.

Note: mealy-mouthed comments on who the SK might be. Draws attention not-so-subtly to the MBL frame job.

[MrBuddyLee]

inHim (CTD):

If BM is town or SK, I expect there to be two scum in the above.

You said both groups could kill him if he were a doc, implying scum would also put the hit out on him, but the same doesn't seem to apply if Guardian were an SK. Reading it again, I actually see you angling Guardian as the SK instead of "covering" for him. Hmmm... angling Guardian as the SK... you're right, that's not cover, it's a setup. unvote vote: Glork - you've made a lot of mistakes, regardless of intent

while I'm certain Glork is evil, I'm not sure whether he's scum or SK. I'll also admit I'm stuck in a pretty big rut until someone on my list is dead (Guardian, Glork, TCS)... let's just kill one and see what happens, k?

If I may play a little as MBL - SK, kill Guardian, k? 'cause, I don't see any way that Guardian is SK.

Heh, Glork, I flat-out told the SK what I wanted. I don't think you ever did such? "Nail on the head" is directed toward what you might have been implying, and I think implicit directions are, like, huge scumtells.

if Glork is scum - he's feeding us one of his partners to stave off suspicion; we should probably hunt in the inactives he listed for a scum. If he's SK, he needs to die regardless.

Note: It's more the tone than anything, I don't see inHim as discussing the SK this flippantly. Plus, at the time, good observations of Glork as SK.

Twilight:

The SK mention is forced, and kinda reminds me of the tell where a role reveals himself, eg a doc congratulating the doc for a successful protection.

TCS could be a a SK, but coupled with TCS' play in Clue and the style that he seems to be adapting lately, he's lowered on my radar now. unFoS: TCS.

MBL, what explicitly about Guardian makes you think SK? I read that and coupled with my suspicion of YB see it as scummy but not SK tells per se.

Guardian's lie bothers me A LOT. I don't know if I think he is teamscum or SK or if I believe him, but I'd rather deal with him now then have these questions come up in the endgame.

Suppose that we manage to lynch the remaining teamscum, but can't find the SK, and we get into a known LyLO situation with three players including you. What should they do then? Go after each other and ignore the person who was caught fake claiming 30 or 40 pages back? If you are town you can see how the SK would have a relatively easy time of forcing your lynch, and then the entire game would be lost due to YOUR LIE. Now, you may think this seems far-fetched, but it is EXACTLY the scenario that the SK and teamscum are playing for, if you are in fact town.

you thought there was a good possibility of Guardian being a SK and knowing that he lied about his doc claim, you still seemed more interested in a TCS lynch and in a HH lynch

Even if you only thought Glork *might* be a cop, you still had him listed as possibly teamscum or SK. You don't do that with players you think are town power roles

As of right now I really think MBL is town. I don't buy him being scum at all, and the case against him as SK comes down to him mentioning the SK a lot, the SK targeting players that had some kind of connection to him, and Glork's meta-game. I simply don't believe that MBL would expect to survive as a SK through the LyLO situation that a SK has to get through in order to win by drawing such a circumstantial case against himself as the SK. The only problem is if we get into a LyLO situation, then MBL almost has to be lynched, unless there is some concrete evidence against another player. I'd prefer not to see that.

MBL, would you be apposed to your lynch tomorrow if we manage to lynch teamscum today, to avoid any shenanigans in LyLO?

If he IS the SK, then he probably made the only play appropriate to save himself, knowing that more than likely he had already been targeted by scum. But I don't see a lot in his play that makes me think SK from before his claim... I was actually pretty convinced there for a while that he was teamscum.

You've claimed that you don't have a read on who the SK might be, but you better get one, and for your sake it better be right. If we get into LyLO then we'd almost be forced to lynch you... I know I'd rather be burned by someone who set you up and took advantage on some silly mistakes you made in the first two days by talking about the SK too much than be burned by MBL-SK who basically broadcasted his role from early in the game to use it as a WIFOM defense in the endgame.

I think you're more likely town than SK, and not likely scum at all. Sometimes I get the feeling that you lurk in bigger games until the later stages then come out full-firing, but I haven't played with you enough to know for sure. I do however think that you could be a serious distraction/problem to deal with in the endgame if we don't peg the SK, and soon.

I think TCS might be a good candidate for SK; he's tried to play as low profile as possible, and jumping in with Glork here might be to try and bolster the "MBL is SK" feeling floating around. If MBL is lynched and Glork dies tonight, TCS would probably feel pretty good about his chances as SK

Glork: 99% believe his claim; the only possibility that I can see is he is the SK, but I don't buy it, as played out above and because his play is consistent with cop-play. If he's trying to run a burn on us then more power to him, it'll be one of the greatest plays I have ever seen if he pulls it off.

Someone in the game has stated that there is no way YB is the SK, but I don't remember who. If you think that, why? I don't particularly feel him being the SK either, but I don't really know why I feel that, and I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks. The MoS kill could have easily been YB-SK.

he could still be the SK, but then I don't know if he'd think to edit his notes and sporadically mention "possible SK" with players. I especially don't see him adding the "High unlikeliness of being SK" to his YB entry.

I feel very strongly now that Kinetic is not teamscum. He could still be the SK, but I don't find this likely either. I can see the whole thing being completely genuine with the exception of him adding some references to Guardian being SK, or other player being SK, but I don't think he'd think to add a reference to YB not being the SK.

I feel that we have 1 shot at the SK at this point, before we have to almost exclusively look for remaining mafia. If we lynch town today we can go at the SK one more time (assuming that no mafia are NK'd), but then we'd have to rely on the SK killing mafia or not submitting a kill to get through the game. If we miss today then we are very, very close to LyLO and we have to pretty much ignore the SK until we finish the mafia.

I've already made an argument that MBL needs to be lynched before we get into an obvious LyLO situation with only the SK left. If we don't lynch MBL today then we might be heading for exactly that situation. However, I really don't feel that MBL is scum at this point, so I'm in kind of a bind.

I really feel the case against MBL comes down to him mentioning the SK and the SK's targets a lot the first 2 days. This could be him trying to set up a WIFOM defense and risk being NKed by the mafia throughout the game or, perhaps even more easily, the SK taking advantage of MBL's constant talk about the SK to set up a pretty good frame job - the latter would be pretty standard play for an SK.

I need a more careful reread of TCS and Jack, and maybe inHim, at this point, but they much more closely fit the typical profile for a SK than MBL; remaining relatively quiet and trying to survive till endgame. I began to become very suspicious of Jack when he claimed to be sure that MBL was the SK but still wanted a lynch of Kinetic. I don't think that he could really make the argument that leaving the SK in the game and thus the potential for 2 kills each night was a good idea, and if he was convinced that MBL was the SK then he should have been voting him.

Eliminated three players as likely SK, which is not optimal SK play. Is the only person who seems to have any sympathy for MBL at present, which on its face would be an SK tell but I'm not feeling it due to the fact he's clearing Glork and Kinetic as well. If he's the SK, he's artful.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork:

You've never played a role that requires you to survive, have you? Survivor, SK, role-with-a-Survivor-condition... they require a different style of play altogether. Why? Because no matter what you do, no matter how many correct lynches or mislynhces the town as a whole attains, no matter what plans you lay out to drive yourself to victory -- it all means nothing if you are killed. Playing a Survivor requires a different strategy altogether.

even if I am scum, I can still hunt scum because we know that there is both a mafia and an SK in the game.

I'm not following the logic of keeping an SK alive, on the assumption that he's going to go after the mafia. Could you explain that a bit better?

What SK tells on Guardian *have* you seen, exactly?

If Guardian is not the SK, then the SK will have significant incentive to kill Guardian regardless of whether Guardian is scum or the Doctor. If Guardian is the SK (which I must say, I find rather unlikely -- I think he'd have taken a lower profile in this game if so), then the Mafia may in fact leave him around for a while.

I find it very likely that in the next night or two, the SK will be cutting Guardian to pieces. And as long as we've got the SK playing vigilante for us, it's strategic to look eslewhere for our lynch.

Scenario 1: Guardian is a Mafiate. The SK likely kills him sooner or later -- preferrably, sooner.
Scenario 2: Guardian is the SK. I find this unlikely, but if it is, he will probably survive for a little while.
Scenario 3: Guardian is a Doctor. The SK will likely target him at some point; the Mafia may or may not. Survival may be dependent on the existence of a second Doc.

I find it highly likely (say, 80%) that the SK will target Guardian (again, unless Guardian is the SK -- a probability which I find to be insignificant).

So Guardian is most likely to survive if he is the SK, but I have already stated that I firmly believe Guardian to be non-SK.

I'm not *telling* the SK what to do. I am predicting what they will likely do. Like I said, regardless of what Guardian is, the SK would have a vested interest in seeing Guardian die.

Whoa. Time out. When I said "the SK is probably going to end up killing Guardian," both AE and you flew off the handle at me. And yet now you're directly telling the SK to kill Guardian. What the fuck, inHim? (does this indicate Glork knows inHim is not SK?)

(a ton of SK-scum killing speculation in post 204)

Quoting AE for saying "Glork is telling the SK what to do" and then TELLING THE SK WHAT TO DO is hypocritical at best. Really, if you hadn't quoted that post, which emphasized the "directing the SK" part, I probably wouldn't be going off like that. But you said that AE "hit the nail on the head" with "Glork is directing the SK" and now you're trying to direct the SK.

I think if inHim is scum caught with his pants down, he's probably the SK and he was trying to signal to the scums that he's going to target Guardian.

I think inHim is rather unlikely to be scum (in spite of his play -- like I said, *if* he's scum, he's probably the SK).

I'm curious to know why you think I'm the Serial Killer and not Mafia. What SK-specific tells do you believe I have given off in your opinion?

YB is definitely not the SK. He was the first person to claim on D1, and he claimed Townie. Considering he wasn't going to be counterclaimed (unless he was moronic enough to claim Vigilante or Cop), he could easily have claimed Doc and bought himself some time. As people discussed around the time of his claim, Townie is a weak claim because it gives a town no incentive to keep you alive. Townie is especially a bad claim for an SK.

I'm not sure why you've listed YB, Glork, and ManaSpryte as possible SKs while leaving off others such as Yos and TCS, whom you've asked to explain their actions more clearly. I get the feeling that you've listed YB because he's been a prime suspect, Glork because two people (inHim and TCS) have accused me of being the SK

SK is probably among {MBL, Yos, HH, BT, inHim}

with one Cop already dead, there really isn't a good fake-claim for scum (especially the SK) to make. Vigilante can't be proven, since we know the SK chainsaws and the Vig shoots. Cop could be counterclaimed, and it would force the SK to give accurate results. (If, for example, he'd declared an innocent on Sarc, the SK would be dead by now.)

Personally, I am seeing Guardian as a very likely SK candidate right now. As both inHim and I previously have pointed out why the SK would (or, in inHim's case, "should") target Guardian, does anybody else find it odd that the SK went after AE? Given his self-survival play, the somewhat odd kill choice (which, I think, was a weak attempt to frame MBL as an SK)

I want to point out that while Guardian brought up being crazy to revert his claim, it makes PERFECT sense if he is the SK and feared a second counterclaim.

I think that HH is very likely Mafia (prolly the last Goon), and that Guardian is the SK. I'm not sure who the Godfather is yet, but after those two are out of the way, we can figure that out. GG, scums. You've been paragon'd.

SK has every incentive to unclaim. As I stated earlier, if the SK gets countered, he's completely and utterly screwed unless he tries to back off of the claim. If he doesn't back off, he will very likely be lynched, and he will lose the game entirely. If he unclaims, there is a chance (albeit a slim one) that he will be believed and can maneuver himself into a position to win the game.

Your behavior has convinced me that you are very likely the SK. Period.

right now, your actions ring of being the SK. Period.

making a 'bad' claim such as Doc is preferrable to getting lynched if you're an SK. Do you understand that an SK's top priority is survival? Do you understand why players who will do anything to survive (as you have done) will be seen as being a likely SK?

My biggest problem is that I'm actually trying to decide if MBL makes more sense as the SK or as a Mafiate. I've seen indicators of both -- more on the SK side than the Mafia side, though.

MBL as SK: (blah blah blah post 272)

MBL is not only likely to be the SK, but his behavior is certainly NOT indicative of him being non-mafia.

MBL is still the SK, and eliminating him eliminates a nightkill upcoming. MBL, if Kinetic is lynched as town, you should probably be hitting scum tonight.

I think that if we lynch Mafia, they'll both try to kill town tonight to make it 7 players alive with 5 Town, 1 SK, 1 Mafia. That is their best hope for survival. Our goal should be to eliminate a kill altogether. Alternatively, hitting scum is the second option, but going after the SK is definitely, IMHO, the right play here.

As SK, I'd leave YB alive because he probably buys me another day/night.

Also, Sheven, what makes you think that TCS is the Godfather or the SK? I'd like specifics, please.

MBL, part of the reason I don't seem interested in your opinions of others' alignments is because I don't feel that you're necessarily telling the truth if you're an SK (which I obviously believe right now).

You are the SK and I want you dead today. End of story.

with no second Doctor and a Goon still out there, claiming Cop as SK would literally be giving up the game, ESPECIALLY AS I AM GOING AFTER SOMEBODY WHOM I BELIEVE IS THE SK.

I don't think that Billy, as SK, would stick his neck out for ANYBODY at that stage, especially Kinetic. the SK probably has little (if any) concern over whether we lynch town or scum today, so long as he survives.

Note: My main objection all along is that a mistake in his innocents (calling the goon innocent) would get him killed immediately. Would Glork take this risk, knowing full well he's already been targeted by scum and will be again? Tough to say. At this point, my lingering "hope" that Glork's the SK is largely because if he's not, I have to accept the fact he's played poorly this game. I'm so so tempted to say I really really don't think he is, but I'd hate to let him get away with murder if he IS. Also: Is eliminating a few players as SK, also not optimal.

[MrBuddyLee]

SK:

Jack(White)-most likely
TCS
Shteven
Yogurt(Rogueben)
BM(Kinetic)
inHim(CTD)
Yos
Twilight
Glork - least likely

I'll also add that an SK's much less likely to want to be replaced, unless like Jack, they're leaving the site altogether and abruptly. This jives with White, TCS, Shteven being my top three SK suspects.

[MrBuddyLee]

So you're saying I did what a protown player would try to--out scum, I at one point did what you agreed with--accused Glork, and I'm number two on your SK-list. You don't jive, daddy.

No, I'm saying your comments on the subject are incredibly thin and unsubstantiated. "Bet you X is the SK." "Y is probably the SK." "Hai guyz think Z or PDQ could be the SK?"

And Shteven is right, some people need to step it up if we're going to catch scum. At least three of you are barking up the wrong tree without a backup plan. If Glork dies tonight, he'll most likely be kicking himself at the end of this game because net he's done more harm than good and not left us with anything positive to work with. Glork, I'm town. Please leave a legacy for the rest of your town and tell them who to go after once I turn up town. I don't care if you keep voting for me at this point. Just figure out who the three scum are.

[MrBuddyLee]

If any of you have the time to read through those SK comments I posted for everyone, I'd love your thoughts on which one or two seem least sincere, with your explanations. One of those people is taking about themselves as they talk about the SK--it's a direct challenge to each of you to identify one or two prospective SKs out of the bunch.

[MrBuddyLee]

A brief reread of TCS's play shows that his defense against accusations today has been entirely:

"It's a bad mathematical play to lynch an investigated innocent."

Which is a terrible argument in this situation if he's speaking in generalities, and which is a downright scummy argument considering he's a prime suspect AND an investigated innocent.

TCS, if you are town, please step up your play. You're doing so little scumhunting that it's impossible to tell whether you're lazy town or indifferent scum. And your only significant push today has been against a proposed SK, which would be the predictable behavior of scum. At this moment I see you as today's most likely lynch, and if you're town that would be a disastrous result so please take this more seriously instead of nickel and dimeing this game with pithy weightless remarks. There are 100 pages to work with--please utilize them.

I'll also note that of the nine suspects remaining in this game, the one I see most likely to unwisely try to frame me as SK is TCS. I suppose anyone could have done it, but in my opinion, Glork, Billy, Yos, Jack, inHim would have found it too risky and YB wouldn't be that bold. BM and TCS fit the psychological profile decently, with Shteven a distant third due to the oddness in the way he's discussed the framing in this thread.