NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[zMuffinMan]

nup

i'm super town

who should i sheep?

[zMuffinMan]

i have town reads on BRO and koreanBBQ from this page

might get around to reading the rest of this game later tonight / tomorrow

[zMuffinMan]

is it just me or did my paranoia level just go up by 9000%

this game will be much easier if you just read me as town from the get-go

[zMuffinMan]

depends if you're town

[zMuffinMan]

i'm like halfway through this atm

town: bro maraca tammy cephrir geists f16? generic? koreanbbq?


will prob finish reading this during breaks at work today

[zMuffinMan]

i still haven't got around to reading this yet

someone tell me who to sheep or direct me to a case i can pretend to read and be like, "ah yes, that is a good point!"

[zMuffinMan]

i pagetopped

[zMuffinMan]

what about them?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't even know what you're talking about nor do i care

[zMuffinMan]

yeah... you've lost me completely now

[zMuffinMan]

if there's one person in this game I can trust to read you correctly, who do you think it probably is?

*shrug*

i expect once i actually get in the game, some players should be able to pick up on obvious cues i'm town, but your guess is as good as mine

[zMuffinMan]

town: maraca, bro, geists, tammy, f16, pieguy, koreanbbq, generic, varsoon, cephrir
maybe also domo. and maybe also desp

{casso, mafiassk, brian skies, goodmorning, sakura, pitoli, roflcopter}
haven't really sorted this yet

don't particularly like most of the main wagons atm

[zMuffinMan]

i think i wanna go with this for now

Vote: casso

might go into detail a bit later before i sleep, if i can be bothered

[zMuffinMan]

ser is prob town

[zMuffinMan]

People that I have conviction about being scum and want to see lynched:
Desperado
KoreanBBQ
Mc Maraca

either your reads suck or mine do, and i'm thinking it's yours because i'm awesome

[zMuffinMan]

the ser read? i don't agree with his read on you but i don't think he's scummy for it, and the way he's forming reads looks town

[zMuffinMan]

i think he is reading the thread, though? or at least reading ISOs?

the tammy/goodmorning reads suggests he's either reading the start of the thread or going through their ISOs, as does him mentioning the way maraca's read on brian changed

also he didn't say that last part? unless i'm missing something here?

[zMuffinMan]

also if he was reading my ISO I'd especially expect him to notice I was pushing other people

i have something to say about this but i'll let him answer it himself first

[zMuffinMan]

Okay so here's the problem. Getting townreads is the easiest thing in the world, especially when YOU BARELY HAVE SCUMREADS. It doesn't create conflict, and it creates this sense that you're actually achieving something

can't wait til you get around to doing a read on me because this is pretty much all i've done so far and i'm town

[zMuffinMan]

Anyways, I'm on my phone but I'm hashing out a comprehensive post with fferyllt tonight.

when this happens, can you talk specifically about why your casso read changed?

[zMuffinMan]

what strong flashes of sincerity from nacho?

why is goodmorning in your maybetown list with "somebody else sort her please"?

also you left mafiassk out of that list?

[zMuffinMan]

@nosfferati

ok. i'm actually kinda meh about my ability to read nacho, but the main reason i don't like them at the moment is that it feels a lot like they're coasting along and content with not creating any friction while doing not a lot of anything. kinda hypocritical coming from me given the start i've had this game, but meh, i'm still getting my bearings in this game.

i also don't like the way they're forming their reads. it doesn't look like what i'd expect from them as town. e.g. i'm not really sure what's going on with their read on me. i've never seen nacho use meta as a primary means for reading me, not to mention how horribly half-assed that meta read on me is - granted i don't have much content yet to go on, but this just felt like him trying to push the idea that i'm not playing to some concept of my town meta he apparently has and calling me scum without properly analysing. and thor's read on me in 1780 just completely ignored nacho's analysis, which makes me go, "wtf?" the other reads i've seen from them haven't been any more impressive

btw, if you're having trouble sorting me, why not, you know, ask me stuff?

[zMuffinMan]

i forget, have you seen pieguy scum before, ffery? what's nati said about it?

because i'm thinking pieguy town here and i was expecting nati to be thinking along the same lines i am about him

[zMuffinMan]

nati, what stuff did you personally like about casso?

also, who are you thinking about voting? the only scum read you guys have that i really agree with is brian

[zMuffinMan]

When he was around he didn't drift

eh, that's kinda what i remember him doing, actually

Where do your reads differ from mine?

i agree with the "town" reads, but i'm nowhere near as confident about some of them as you seem to be
i'm thinking casso, sakura and maybe goodmorning from your maybe town list could be scum
the only scum read you have that i agree with is brian

[zMuffinMan]

So, you're thinking town-Desp and town-Pieguy?

yeah. desp is kind of a weak read but the responses he's been giving are more in line with what i'd expect from him as town.

What is it about Brian that makes you think scum? This is not so much like his Cash Cabd game.

i've never seen brian as town, but it's nothing to do with how similar this is (or isn't) to cash cabd. he has like one post of content (the giant wall) and i didn't like anything about it. it felt like he was padding it with a lot of stuff that wasn't relevant and what little of it was actually relevant was non-committal

it's more gut than anything, really

[zMuffinMan]

what kind of read on you did you expect other than a half-assed meta read based on your posts so far?

at best, no read. you clearly have no understanding of my meta if you actually think this is my scum game, and the reason i called your meta read on me half-assed is because you can't even explain

why

you thought i was scum, except to say you expected me to come in guns blazing as town. which shows you have no clue about how i play as scum or town.

I find it strange that nothing in Maraca/BRO/pieguy/BBQ/generic/Varsoon/Cephrir stuck out to you as anything but town

dealwithit.jpg

You've seen me coast as town and scum.

when i've seen you "coast" as town, you're still doing stuff, you're still trying to sort people properly, and even when your read on someone is way off, you still look like you're trying to figure out what's going on. here i see none of that.

What other reads are formed in a strange way?

the pieguy read, for one. i'm not even sure what thor's going for (i don't remember him giving reasons, unless i missed it?), and all you've done is insist that pieguy should have been more interested in your read on me.

the BBQ read is another. you guys apparently went from thinking they're scum to one of you thinking they're town and the other thinking they're scum, and since then you've just... not mentioned them at all.

[zMuffinMan]

Zmuffin is completely non-comittal and his iso yields absolutely no scum-hunting

*shrug*

if by non-committal, you mean i barely give a shit about this game, then you're right. but that's mostly because reading the back-and-forth bitching between some of the players in this game is sapping my motivation

as for lack of scum hunting, meh, your definition of scum hunting must be very different to mine

It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early

mmhmm. and if you really were trying to sort me, i'd expect you to have, you know... actually done something to try and sort me. but you haven't done that and you're not doing that.

Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

the phrasing of this is really off. from your pov, if you're town, you shouldn't be talking about "if" i'm wrong on you. but i digress.

yeah, if you're town, then my scum list would contain primarily "lurkers". that's just how my reads developed this game. i imagine i could be wrong somewhere in my town reads, but i'm not all that concerned about it atm. that'll most likely sort itself out somewhere down the line.

besides, if you think it's strange to suspect primarily lurkers, why are you only calling me out for it? why not, say, maraca, whose most recent scum list is

all

low-content players? or any of the other people whose scum lists include primarily "lurkers"?

I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it

that

is

my problem with it, actually. it never looked fully-formed and you guys seemed so confident about him being scum (or at least thor did). but i'm assuming this means your read on him is now fully-formed. what is your pieguy read now?

Did I need to comment further on that?

it was never clear what your actual read on them is (was). so thor now thinks bbq is town?

[zMuffinMan]

He has a town read on me.

i also have a VI read on you

i'm pretty confident about it, too

[zMuffinMan]

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

wow. you are scum, aren't you?

[zMuffinMan]

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

bullshit. you're not trying to sort me. you're talking at me, but nowhere in this back-and-forth have you tried to sort me. you're asking me shit questions and making snide comments here and there, but you're not trying to figure me out. you don't seem to actually care about my alignment, and it's sad that a majority of this player list is ignoring what you're doing.

you know your scum list is probably wrong and aren't really making efforts to refine it

part of that is because i'm only barely paying attention to this game (reading this game is just below banging my head against a wall on my to do list) and part of that is because i want flips before i start doubting my reads. i never assume my reads are accurate and always work on the assumption i could be wrong, but that doesn't mean i'm going to doubt my reads because i could be wrong. i don't even know why i have to explain this to you. it's fucking simple shit.

Your primary push is on me which you know isn't the type of thing that isn't going to go through anytime soon

*shrug* i don't like that barely anybody else is paying attention to how fucking scummy you're being, but i don't currently have the time to push it any harder than i'm already pushing it. i don't really give a shit; i'll push who i want to push.

you aren't really making an effort to sort out things any further than you have already even though the current position that you would be as a townie would be the type that's frustrating and generally not acceptable

i don't even know what this means, so i'm just going to assume it's drivel. i'm town, and if you're actually town here, you need to get over this dumb shit you're pushing on me

[zMuffinMan]

@ser,

why are you voting me?

what's your read on casso?

[zMuffinMan]

prod dodge

reading stuff in next couple hours assuming site stays up

[zMuffinMan]

I think all I want from you is a concrete scumlist and want to see you pushing some scumreads *shrug*

ok. i wouldn't hold my breath waiting if i were you, though. i don't have anything anyone would call concrete atm

i still think casso could be scum. him writing off a post of mine as not worth responding to then suddenly backing off of me doesn't make me feel better about him. i didn't like anything brian was doing but he's been replaced now apparently. there's a bunch of players i don't have a strong read on one way or another. then there's a bunch more players i think are town. i'm pretty tired atm, so if you have specific players you want me to talk about, ask and maybe i'll get around to it when i wake up

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote

considering i didn't even really do what you apparently wanted me to do, what made you unvote me?

also, when did you change your mind about casso? coz your 2471 makes it sound like you were leaning town on them, if anything, and 2633 makes it seem like you don't think it's a good wagon

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons.

is this still for the way he sorted you? i've skimmed a bit so i dunno if you ever went beyond that as a reason

also, i don't really get your SC or desp reads. SC based entirely off GIF's read? and desp should be a town read for you?

[zMuffinMan]

Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

[zMuffinMan]

i'm pretty sure mc is town, and i think i know who their partner is, and if i'm right it would explain the awkward feeling i had about the way they arrived at that particular read

skimming atm, wanna read the last 5 or so pages when i'm a bit more alert

btw nati, you think pieguy is scum too, or is that ffery's read?

[zMuffinMan]

Its more me than ffery.

pieguy? why?

[zMuffinMan]

hmm. there's something i associate with pieguy's scum game that i'm not seeing here and i don't think it's something he'd easily change. or maybe i'm just really bad. whatever. might give his ISO a read later

[zMuffinMan]

Hmm I think I may get it maybe. I'm certainly willing to hear you out if you think otherwise.

for lack of a better description, and because i want to be deliberately vague about this, the tone of pieguy's posts in this game is reading town. i'm not as confident about it as i originally was, and i imagine he could actually fake some of the things he's saying/doing as scum, butttttt i think he's town for now. at least not someone i want to lynch today. i'm kind of interested in what you think is off about him this game.

[zMuffinMan]

No you're probably fine

wat

See above.

doesn't really explain why you chose the casso wagon to (temporarily) settle on, especially given how you apparently felt about it

[zMuffinMan]

norlkaz was brian?

i'd be fine with lynching him, too

[zMuffinMan]

@ zMuffinman, I'd actually like to discuss what you noticed about Pieguyn and your thoughts about my posts about how he comes across tonally - I feel that he is a lot more energetic and has more conviction in his pushes as town.

mm, yeah, kind of. the thing i mentioned with tone wasn't so much to do with his pushes, but behavioural things outside of that. "energetic" is kind of along the lines i'm thinking, but it's more a confidence thing - as scum i get the feeling he lacks confidence in what he's saying; as town, even when he's unsure about stuff, there's this kind of confident tone in the way he approaches things. it's hard to really describe this because i'm using an ongoing game as a reference here. the last few sentences of your breakdown of the touhou upick game were things that stood out for me as well. the thing you said about being content with certain responses is kind of what i'm getting at with the confidence stuff - there's this sort of feeling that he doesn't believe his own bullshit when he's scum

i'm really bad at describing this sort of thing

[zMuffinMan]

hey nacho

why did you vote sakura

[zMuffinMan]

oh, you guys are too kind. 20 pages as a christmas present for me? i'll open it later

[zMuffinMan]

read the last few pages. i don't want to lynch sakura.

also knowing that i make nero want to bang his head against a wall is the best christmas present i've gotten today. thanks

[zMuffinMan]

actually, to clarfy, i'd vote sakura just to end this fucking day because it really needs to end, but i don't currently think sakura's scum

[zMuffinMan]

hey sakura, who do you think is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

Check my ISO my reads haven't changed much since then

geists, SC, casso?

vote casso?

[zMuffinMan]

Partly their reputation as scum

what reputation? if you mean looking town(ish?) as scum, then how does this factor into you thinking i'm scummy here?

Muffin's play has been sketchy
...
Muffin just pings

go on

How in bloody fucking hell are you discounting the tremendous amount of effort that Nacho has put into this game. He got a wagon to L-1 and then fucking dismantled it because he started to see town glimmers.

There's absolutely no way that makes sense for scum-Nacho to do.

you keep calling nacho town for stuff that really doesn't make him town. like, really... unless the "effort" factor is some sort of town tell for you? how does him "dismantling" a wagon on someone that was starting to be townread by a fair few players make him more likely town?

either you're seriously underestimating him if you think this is something he couldn't do as scum, or i'm seriously overestimating him.

I don't see how those words could possibly bother you

coz nacho didn't give a shit about trying to "sort" me and was pretending that's what he was doing. nothing he was asking me, saying to me, or saying about me was designed to sort me, incidentally, it was about that point that he stopped even responding to me altogether (claiming it wasn't worth it or something?), which is a funny fucking way to sort someone

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
DOMO
MuffinMan

heh

wasn't it you who criticised me for having a scum list that included you and mostly low-content players?

[zMuffinMan]

meh

i'll probably vote mafiassk when i wake up if the game thread is still open

[zMuffinMan]

Re sorting you, I'm finding it pretty difficult going to get data that is definitive this game and haven't come up with a line of questioning that I think would be definitive. So I can kinda relate. It could be because the bar has been raised considerably since I last played with you.

ok. and i can somewhat understand that position, kinda. but i don't think what nacho was doing in any way counts as "sorting" and i don't think the way he was approaching it was town

Players of concern are Bro, zmuffin, domo and to a lesser extent Ceph and Sakura

with the exception of maybe domo, it would not surprise me if all the players in that list are town

Muffin style unreadable very TIPsy, Varsoon can't read - too manipulative and calculating - almost like Yates...no idea how to read

oh yeah, i've been really manipulative and calculating. good catch. i'll give you a clue if you have no idea how to read me. starts with a "t", ends with "own", has 4 letters. tell me if you need another clue

btw did you respond to my last post? i missed it or skimmed over it if you did

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, i'm ecstatic. and it only took 153 pages. high five

[zMuffinMan]

i don't like 3816 at all. or 3819 for that matter

This feels like it could be an attempt to discredit geists while maintaining focus on me.

that is exactly what it was

btw when/why did you start scum reading cephrir?

I don't know how you expect me to sort you early game other than by tilting you and finding things I don't like about you

i don't have a clear idea of how i expected you to go about "sorting" me, but i didn't like the way you went about it

[zMuffinMan]

I'm suspicious of ceph, I wouldn't go as far to say I'm scumreading him.

...

same question but replace 'scum reading' with 'being suspicious of' then

So why would you discredit gesists and focus on me?

because i think geists is wrong with the possible exception of you. this isn't rocket surgery.

bro is probably town - i'm not confident on this but this isn't the play i'd imagine coming from him as scum; he has this sort of "seeking approval" attitude as scum from what i've seen (playing with him as scum and skimming through some of his scum games) and i'm not seeing it here (which is part of the reason i had a gut town read on him on whatever page it was i replaced in). plus i thought his posts early game looked kinda townish, so that, too. i dunno why geists thinks bro is concerning (or me, for that matter, but meh)

cephrir is prob town, too. this is more gut than anything, but the responses he's given at different points in the game looked town. might go back over his ISO and bring up quotes if i can be bothered or think it's necessary, but meh

and sakura's posts at the end of yesterday looked kinda townish

so yeah, of the 5 people geists listed, with the possible exception of you, it wouldn't surprise me if they're all town

I don't see why it's such a large sticking point for you

coz it stands out as something i don't expect to come from you as town

[zMuffinMan]

zmuffin who else are you scumreading?

hmm, you're probably not going to like this. i'm going to have to take a rain check on giving a proper answer. i'm thinking of scrapping all my current reads and starting over because i'm not confident about any of my scum reads atm (or at least nowhere near as confident as i'd like to be). and i actually have a little time on my hands over the next few days so i can do some reading.

at the start of today i woulda said casso, norlkaz, maybe desp, maybe domo, maybe mafiassk. but really, i don't have strong reasons for any of those that aren't essentially poe from townreads and not liking some of the things they've written. and most of my town reads are basically gut because i haven't been paying close enough attention to this game so far

so yeah. i'll prob start going through ISOs when i wake up because i can't be fucked reading ISOs tonight

[zMuffinMan]

I do not think I am comfortable with his posting

*shrug* i'm not comfortable with my posting either, so join the club, i guess?

[zMuffinMan]

i actually think sad is town. kinda.

[zMuffinMan]

why would scum nacho directly stand against GIF and everyone who was supporting him (most of the player list)?

even if this wasn't well within my epectations of something nacho would do as scum, i don't really get why you think he wouldn't do this?

nacho's push on me bc of my lack of interest in zmuffin makes so much more sense considering he knew zmuffin was scum against me in marketplace 3

btw, marketplace 3 and nacho's reasons for suspecting i'm scum this game are a large part of why i think the way he's approached his read on me here is bullshit

[zMuffinMan]

Happy New Year!

explain SAD town

actually sad's more town with a question mark on him. not someone i'm interested in pursuing atm, anyway.

things that made me think town:

- i liked his entrance to the game. everything about it, from the tone of his initial posts, to the way he was forming reads
- isome of his recent responses to the votes on him looked kinda townish
- #4133 (particularly the phrasing of the last sentence) and #4136 (mostly the first response to mafiassk) felt town

things i didn't like:

- the way he parked his vote on you D1, followed by parking his vote on me for a majority of the rest of the day. the one with me irked me a bit because i prodded him about it, and he said he wanted me to do something, and then i never did it and he backed off of me and now i'm apparently on the townier side of his middle-tier reads. i can maybe sorta understand it if something i'd done had changed his mind about me? but he hasn't mentioned me at all, really, so i dunno how that happened
- also didn't like the way he talked about the mafiassk wagon yesterday, as though he was opposed to it and then a sudden, "welp whatever" attitude. plus i didn't like the comment he made about him bussing

i kinda agree with him that the stuffed crust wagon is difficult to analyse because of the way it happened, so i don't have a problem with the fact he hasn't put much effort into analysing it

i do want him to explain why he's so strongly townreading casso and why he's got geists as a scum read, but if you swap geists and casso around, his reads look pretty similar to mine with a few minor differences

I doubt he'd do that bc it goes against practically everyone in the game. he'd risk getting way too much scrutiny over it.

scrutiny over what? being right about SC? i don't get why you think it's unlikely to come from him as scum. like, yeah, OK, nacho could be town, but that's well within the realm of possibility for nacho-scum

[zMuffinMan]

also i dunno if the "elaborate plz" was directed at my comment about marketplace3 but going back to the way nacho has approached his read on me here, the thing i really didn't like about it (and something i couldn't really mention while marketplace was ongoing) is that nacho should really know this isn't how i play scum. he should know i like manipulating and trolling people as scum, and the fact he thinks my lack of engagement is something likely to come from me as scum is fucking bullshit. this is the biggest issue i had with the way he was trying to "sort" me.

plus i don't believe he thought anything he was doing was going to give him an idea of my alignment either way, and the conclusions he comes to based off my posts are just bad.

IF anyone were going to notice this isn't my scum game here, i expected it to be nacho, and the fact he still thinks i'm scum atm is at least a cause for concern even apart from the weak reasoning for it

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't want to bus DP (i was kinda hoping it didn't happen), but i hopped on it early when nacho was making it a thing (i think i was 3rd or 4th on it and nacho was 1st?)

[zMuffinMan]

One of the things that really impressed me in Marketplace was the way you managed to be aware of a meta I assume you had for a while, shed it completely, and make up a new scum meta in what seemed pretty much on the spot.

that's not *actually* what i was doing in marketplace, and you know it. what i was doing in marketplace was deliberately playing to my "town meta" because i knew morph was eventually going to metadive me and i wanted them to read me as town when they did it. everything i did was designed to elicit a town read from them when they metadived me

I was expecting you to come into the game with a bit more motivation and drive

*shrug* i was planning to be a bigger part of this game, but the site being down at awkward times for me and some stuff IRL leading up to christmas meant i couldn't really follow the game at the pace it was going

This approach of muffin being lazy as hell feels like you manipulating your meta to something that you know people will view as different from that terrifying scumgame of yours because it doesn't make sense that you're behaving this way as town

riiiiight. so you see my lack of engagement in the game and instead of trying to understand why i'm not engaged, you think, "hmm, maybe muffin not looking town is something he's trying to do as scum because he likes not looking town as scum!"

but you were in different hands. I dunno at what point you knew you were both on the scum team.

i think we knew pretty early. i don't remember the exact point. it was whenever i made that gameplan image

but i don't really know if that counts as bussing

[zMuffinMan]

so you like how he misrepped me by saying that I was doing 0 scumhunting and then made a weird push on me?

not really. i think we've already talked about this at some point

there's more to analyze than just that one wagon too, there was another wagon on him earlier in the day and a shitton of discussion

yeah, and this would be the only thing that's really worthwhile analysing, not the wagon at the very end of the day

btw i don't know why you and bro are mentioning this as important and then not really doing any analysis on it yourselves

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin can start raking up some scumpoints for his recent posts.

cool. why?

also why geists scum and why casso town?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think it was an intentional "misrep", more like his interpretation

i'm prone to exaggerating in a similar way when i call someone out for doing no scum hunting

i didn't like it, but i didn't think it was scummy

[zMuffinMan]

A scumteam based on Pieguy, whom I don't understand the townreads on:

Pieguy
Bro
BBQ?
Muffin or Desp
Ceph

Casso is still an option

Bert is also an option on team Pieguy

you have like half the game in your scum list

[zMuffinMan]

Your recent posts have been saying you don't agree with my lynch, yet you offer no alternative neither do you make a full effort to convince anyone (supported by the fact you wishy-wash your statements by then putting a things you don't like - so no one that is currently on the wagon can even be convinced of the things you DO like because it looks like you're not even convinced of them yourself).

ok. i'm not convinced you're town but you're right that i don't agree with your lynch. the reason i'm not pushing anyone else yet is because i'm still going over ISOs. i made yours a priority read because of the wagon on you.

the things i don't like are the things i don't like and i'm not going to avoid mentioning those things just because i think you might be town. your read progression on me is still one of the things i don't like about you because i don't understand how you went from initially thinking i'm town to thinking i'm scum (or at least a worthwhile vote) to changing your mind about me at some point between the end of D1 and that reads list you recently gave to now thinking i'm scum again (or at least that i've earned "scum points"?). it'd be nice if you actually explained what was going on with this.

Also do you usually take suspicion on you this lightly/calmly, or are you trying to materialize this air of coolness around you by brushing off suspicion on you in an attempt to look town?

i'm a really cool guy. and your read progression on me makes me smile a bit

[zMuffinMan]

did you notice he did that with me too?

not really. i must admit paying attention to sad's read progression on you wasn't high on my list of priorities this game (shocking, i know). but i'll take your word for it. when did you ask him about it?

I will also note he got a hell of a lot more engaged a lot quicker in FEA (122 posts in 12 days there, 52 posts in 15 days here), which doesn't make sense because I can imagine this would be a game he would be more excited to get into

even if i did find people bitching at each other and creating noise super-exciting (strangely, i don't!), you're measuring my post count across christmas/new year's/a period of time when the site has been going down constantly for lengthy periods of time and calling it strange that i have less posts here than in another game. yeah...

See, but I did try to understand why you weren't engaged

no, you didn't

all you're doing is making tinfoil arguments about why i could be scum and you're using a recent game where i intentionally manipulated my meta specifically to look town as a basis for fueling this argument

you're not actually trying to understand anything or trying to discern my alignment in any way in this game

and this is why i think you're scum

[zMuffinMan]

Site downtime hasn't affected anyone else incredibly significantly, so I didn't think that it affected you that horribly

yeah, well i happen to have a very rare affliction that i'm pretty sure nobody else in this game suffers from, and i'm actually rather sensitive about it *sob* *sob*. the truth is... i'm australian

saying that you're being lurky and apathetic because your scum games usually aren't lurky and apathetic isn't a tinfoil argument at all.

when you think i'm scum for that reason alone, it is the very definition of a tinfoil argument

What more am I supposed to do?

...

[zMuffinMan]

wait, you know the site being down affected me a lot, so i dunno why you're feigning like you don't know that had something to do with it. i even complained about it frequently in our QT iirc

and even if you somehow forgot that, you could have just, you know, checked my activity over any game i've been playing since the down time started happening (iirc, it began the very day after i replaced into this, me being a harbinger of downtime and all)

no blazing glory

*shrug*

I don't believe the only acceptable answer is calling you town because apathy

see, i'm not even suggesting that. i'd find it even odder if you had me as town for a weak reason like that. i'm calling your approach to reading me bullshit because you're not even thinking about it; you're not trying to assess things properly, you're just bullshitting your read on me.

[zMuffinMan]

You keep repeating this but you've never explained why you think this.

the way you're approaching the read on me feels unnatural. you're looking at something, and suggesting i'm scum because because while this may be something that sometimes happens when i'm town, i could also being doing ithis as scum! tbh, i expected more of a reserved approach from you, sorta like the one ffery's been taking toward me

Why did you say you expected me to see that this wasn't your scumgame early?

i may have said something along the lines of expecting you, if anyone, to pick up on this not being my scum game, but that's mostly because if anyone has intimate knowledge of how i play as scum, it's you.

What have you done so far that you expect me to read as town?

this is a horrible question

if zmuffin will finish those ISOs and post some reads I'll have something solid to base a read on

i'm mostly done. give me a couple hours (i have like 5 to go)

[zMuffinMan]

I'm suggesting you're scum because you haven't really given me a reason to read you as town

mm, that could be because you're scum

Answer it anyways.

i have a better idea

[zMuffinMan]

anyway, i'm done reading ISOs

maraca, geists, domo, goodmorning*
f16, bro
bbq, generic, pieguy, sakura, sad, cephrir
norlkaz
desperado, bert
casso, mafiassk

no real order within tiers, explanations will need to wait til tomorrow coz i'm tired

[zMuffinMan]

Don't like that Muffin person

i think i asked you about this at the end of D1 and don't remember you answering. why?

My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it

*shrug* tbh, i can't think of any things i do as town that i wouldn't also potentially do as scum (and i think most of the difference between my scum and town play comes from interactions, and it's not as black and white as "i do this as town and not as scum"), so i dunno what you're expecting here and it feels like you're just using this as an excuse to call me a scum read

I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse

you supposedly have a scum read on BRO, don't you? or at least he's not a townread? this statement doesn't make sense.

[zMuffinMan]

heh. i dunno why so many people are suggesting keeping mafiassk alive is the correct move. as much as i think casso is scum, mafiassk is basically claiming scum in every post now

Vote: mafiassk

[zMuffinMan]

I can't help but feel it's deliberately bad, designed to derail the current wagon

the simpler explanation is that it's mafiassk. i don't actually think he knows what he's doing

plus if this is your theory, why do you think it has anything to do with casso? mafiassk's last posts came when casso had only 2 votes and there were 2 other wagons with more votes than him at the time

[zMuffinMan]

I'll do what ffery won't.

ily nati

[zMuffinMan]

I don't see when I would need "an excuse" to call you a scumread, though.

...

He's a weak scumread, don't really think that he's scum

...

[zMuffinMan]

unvote

[zMuffinMan]

everyone else i think is scum jumping on mafiassk is giving me bad feelings about it

[zMuffinMan]

if he is scum, that's probably what's happening right now

[zMuffinMan]

{casso, bert, desp} would be my first guesses

[zMuffinMan]

SSK is NOT likely to flip scum for behavioral reasons I shall explain when we have more time

do this in your next post

[zMuffinMan]

i don't really think cephrir is scum atm. just being bad.

why cephrir?

[zMuffinMan]

I also put Ceph in here, in the order of like Casso-Ceph-Bert-Desp.

i'm more like casso-bert-desp-ceph of those 4, but i still don't really see ceph as scum here

when/why did you start scum reading ceph, btw?

[zMuffinMan]

Yes but the difference is nero and casso. Here it's casso on the ropes. Why aren't scum seizing on a fistpump mislynch? Because they're scared to? Or because it's not a mislynch?

mm, i think casso is scum here, but this line of thinking got me into a sort of confirmation bias in xenogears with nacho in an almost identical situation. and i'm still unsure why scum weren't all over his lynch in that game. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

where are you currently at with SAD?

my read here hasn't really changed

i still think he's more likely town than scum. i don't feel particularly strong about my read here, but i don't want him lynched

[zMuffinMan]

I still have a gut-scumread on Ceph.

:/ was kinda hoping for more here. i like ceph for town mostly because the lack of confidence in his posts and the way he's responding to people looks townish. i also liked some of the stuff he was saying in the quote walls at some point earlier in the game when he was playing catch-up

I asked for a bullet case earlier on them to see if I agreed or not on the case

i don't really have a case, just things i don't like about nacho. mostly to do with the way he's been forming his reads and the way he's been responding to me (and a lot of this has to do with the awkward way he's approached reading me this game after being scum with me twice recently)

why do you wanna lynch bert over casso or ssk?

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: casso

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, Desp, I've already fallen into the abyss. I would totally lynch either of you today

heh. it's kinda funny just how bad you are at reading me, nati

[zMuffinMan]

my record in reading you is actually pretty fucking good, though :/

i think i've been right about you in every game so far? and you've been wrong about me in every game so far?

[zMuffinMan]

the touhou upick being a possible exception (but even there, your first question in the dead QT was asking about my alignment, so :/)

[zMuffinMan]

we should hydra together some time

come vote casso

[zMuffinMan]

we could call it muff rash

[zMuffinMan]

Why isn't Muffin stepping up?

i'm not feeling very confident this game. "stepping it up" would just involve me waffling about things a lot more than i am

i'm reading, i'm giving my meager thoughts here and there, nobody is really asking me any questions about anything, and i kinda just want some flips to sort out where i'm right or wrong atm

Where is Muffin, who spent pages and pages yelling at how upset he was that I wasn't getting lynched in Xenogears? Last time I was his #1 scumread everyone knew about it, everyone was complaining about it

you have a very skewed view of my towngame. xenogears was an entirely different ballpark. there i was worried because the only two still-living players scumreading you at the time were me and ghostlin, who were fairly obviously going to be killed off consecutively on the following nights (and we both did end up dying consecutively on the following nights). i was worried there that you'd talk yourself out of a lynch because nobody else who wanted you dead would be around to really push you

here i don't have any of the same concerns. i'm not exactly a priority kill in the current gamestate, i'm not particularly worried about there being too few people who want to lynch you, and i don't see you being able to bullshit your way through the game much longer (although you seem to be doing an OK job of making people waver on you atm).

i'm also slightly worried because all the major wagons being considered atm (aside from SAD) are wagons on my scum reads, and generally that means i'm really, really wrong somewhere and i dunno where

[zMuffinMan]

well SAD isn't exactly a major wagon anymore, but he was a short while back

[zMuffinMan]

[What do you make of SC's flip and the people that were voting them?
What do you make of Tammy's flip and her interactions in general?

these questions entirely miss the point of what i was saying and seem utterly meaningless regardless. i'm not a fan of delving into NK WIFOM and i haven't looked at how the SC wagon formed in any depth yet (and analysing the end wagon seems fruitless)

I have a tendency to get loud when I'm trying to figure things out, and I doubt you'd be any different

then you know nothing about how i play, and should really stop talking like you do. i prefer taking a back seat when i'm trying to figure things out, unless there's something i feel i need to inject into the thread

if you have scumreads on Desperado and I, why not vote Desperado? It's not like you've made a particularly poignant effort to sort me out

i may end up doing this, but i like where my vote is now and your posts aren't doing anything to change my mind. i have made an effort to sort you out (just because i'm not bombarding you with questions anymore, doesn't mean i'm not trying to do this). i still think you're scum. you're right that i don't have much conviction here. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

cwphrir-generic stuff is really shit to read through

can we just lynch casso today?

[zMuffinMan]

"doesn't preclude the possibility" does not equal "scum".

You're not making a case. You're yelling I'M RIGHT LYNCH HIM.

Plz come up with something more convincing than this

if goodmorning came up with a case on casso, would it convince you? because other people have brought up points against casso and you've shrugged them off saying you still think he's town for reasons you can't really (or don't want to) explain

do you think domo was just way off base in all the points he brought up about casso?

I'm working on VCA atm and I'm really not sure if it makes sense for casso to be scum here

if you think nacho isn't capable of manipulating this sort of thing, you're sadly mistaken

[zMuffinMan]

:>

but even in imperishable night there was VCA manipulation from nacho (and BRO; see mafiassk wagon there, for example), so yeah

[zMuffinMan]

That's an interesting characterization of my stance

i'm going off what i remember

correct me if i'm wrong

[zMuffinMan]

because i'm town

[zMuffinMan]

maraca, geists,

domo

, goodmorning*
f16, bro
bbq, generic, pieguy, sakura, sad, cephrir
norlkaz

desperado

, bert
casso, mafiassk

pieguy, generic up, norlkaz down

rest of this list unchanged

[zMuffinMan]

I don't know how *anyone* has a townread on Muffin.

neither do i, tbh

but then people are townreading casso, so stranger things have happened

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see it. it's possible but it seems convoluted from SAD to defend him that hard only to eventually vote him and have him claim doc. it looked more like SAD was fighting against what he thought was a policy lynch that garnered no information if mafiassk was town. your argument there is essentially "he didn't want to lynch someone we now know is scum."

"meh," is all i have to say about that

[zMuffinMan]

I find his "so what will you do if he flips scum" to be troubling because it is ignoring the fact that a scum lynch by itself is cause for celebration.

i think this mostly comes down to a different school of thought, and isn't necessarily anything to do with his alignment. the only valid concern here would be if tammy was right about him not caring much about information from lynches in any other games, but i haven't checked whether this is true (and i don't intend to any time soon)

No. We are lynching SSK today. If we have any remaining investigative roles we give them a night; SSK could be a scum PR; narrows the field for tomorrow though this one is probably not relevant. I see no compelling reason to do anything else.

this

[zMuffinMan]

wanna lynch Arthur with me?

if we were lynching someone other than SSK today, why sad over casso? what happened to you being sure casso was scum a few pages back?

tldr though, I have not seen him make this level of effort outside of ASOIAF. His town moments as scum tend to come in short bursts rather than be a continual pounding.

no. nacho is more than capable of :efforting: when he's being suspected as scum. i'm pretty fucking sure the effort isn't an alignment thing, and more a reaction to being suspected, which *might* be because he's town, but he'd do the same thing here as scum. how much of his posts are you actually reading? or what about his effort here looks town?

[zMuffinMan]

@f16,

if you're scumreading casso (and you obviously disagree with ffery's read here) then why did ffery's SEAL OF APPROVAL make you wanna take casso off the table today?

[zMuffinMan]

ffery's reasoning is vague. such things as

the fluidity, the spontaneity, the reactiveness, the interactiveness, the tone

are hard to talk about and argue against without examples (or something more specific about the differences between, for example, the tone of his posts when he's town compared to when he's scum).

*shrug*

problem is, i also have a lot of the same issues with describing why i think casso is scum. i don't know how to describe it in a way that wouldn't look like the deranged rantings of a madman. the best i can really describe it is i don't like the way he's approached his reads in this game and i think it's more in line with nacho-scum than nacho-town. but if you ask me to be more specific, i don't think i can be. i'm bad at words and it's almost a gut-level thing. and so i'm not really sure how to approach ffery's read on casso here because i think she's wrong and she thinks i'm wrong and i don't think i can produce a compelling argument that will convince her and i don't think anything she says about her read is going to change my mind.

i also wouldn't classify my read on casso as "strong". i do think he's very likely scum, but i'm not all that confident in my ability to read nacho correctly.

[zMuffinMan]

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

it wasn't really fence-sitting (i'm not sure what fence you see me sitting on here), it was more me waffling about my read.

[zMuffinMan]

you can ffery out for it

not really

f16 asked where i think ffery's reasoning is incorrect and i was more or less saying "dunno".

[zMuffinMan]

What do you think about Muffin? I hate reading Muffin

considering nacho's opinion on me, i woulda thought you guys had been discussing me a fair bit. how do you not have your own opinion on any of the stuff he thinks or even just your own opinion on me here?

Thor's even more townier than before

i want whatever you're smoking

[zMuffinMan]

Quote me saying I have no opinion on you?

you haven't expressed your own opinion on me (outside of saying you hate reading me) and the implication in asking someone about their read on me and then saying you hate reading me is that you don't have your own opinion here.

you're side-stepping the issue with semantics, here.

[zMuffinMan]

i think you could be wrong

[zMuffinMan]

you still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

ok. where are you at with your read on me?

He's not going to try to explain the case beyond 'gut'

i

have

explained the read, though. several times. it is essentially "gut" but it's gut based on the way you have (or rather, nacho has) approached reads in this game. it's not what i expect coming from town-nacho and i've gone over this a fair bit. none of nacho's recent posts make me feel any better, and i'm really null on everything you're doing right now. ffery (and some others) seem to disagree, and every time i ask why, i'm met with either a vague response or something that i can't really argue against (like "tone").

[zMuffinMan]

i think you're misremembering things. you were one of my first town reads, but iirc, it had very little to do with your posts and everything to do with posts i identified as nati's. there are some things i remember liking about your play, but it was a read mainly based on nati.

[zMuffinMan]

what zMuffin did was a fencesit. He took no strong positions and just said well it could be this and it could be that.

that's not at all what i said

For instance KoreanBBQ softclaims Vig (permission to kill)

considering that was most likely a nero post and nero uses the word kill for people he wants to lynch (you were in FEA where he wanted to "kill" me for a long time so you should really know this) i dunno how you got a vig softclaim from that

You still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

what is the point of this question? what does it achieve? you should really

know

why i thought this since i've already explained it.

[zMuffinMan]

those reads are so fucking weird it almost makes me wanna call him town

[zMuffinMan]

Why are they wierd? Why do wierd reads make you want to call him town?

if he's scum he either hasn't read his scum QT or scum haven't been discussing this game at all or he's doing a good job of acting completely oblivious to what's going on in the game right now

[zMuffinMan]

Is there anything outside of their read on you that you find scummy?

no, not really. a lot of the reason for my read there is coming from the way nacho approached their read on me and the way they've been responding to me - and this had a lot to do with him being scum with me in two other recent games (one of which was ongoing at the start of this game). i could point to other things here and there that pinged, but it's hard to call anything nachothor does scummy without it looking like i'm trying to fit the mold here. but nothing either casso head is doing is looking town to me, and i dunno why so many people are reading it as town.

What do you think of the way Nacho has gone about sorting other players for instance and how he has approached the game in general?

*shrug* it's stuff i could see coming from nacho as town or scum. like i said, i could point to things here and there that ping, but there's nothing i can call outright "scummy". you called his reads politically correct; that's sort of along the same lines i'm thinking. there's nothing that rocks the boat in there, and there's no... i dunno, flare? vigor? they're just reads he could be expected to have.

somewhat related, i have a (sorta tinfoil?) theory that nacho was pushing ssk D1 because they'd planned for ssk to claim doc to buy himself some time and if anyone later suggests that nacho isn't finding scum he can just point back to that and say he was right! a lot of people were giving nacho town cred for the way he dismantled the sakura hana wagon and moved to SSK, so there's also that, too. when i look at it like this, the way he was ready to push and trying to justify what was essentially a policy lynch close to the deadline makes a lot more sense.

This is weird. He doesn't know what school of thought Arthur has having never played with him.

i don't need to play with someone to have an understanding of their playstyle

Spoiler: @pieguy

ignored me a bit when I was questioning him about SAD

if you were asking me stuff that i ignored, it's prob because i didn't read it. fyi, not answering questions that are addressed to me is a town tell

this is kind of a tinfoil hat theory but I get the feeling he was coaching SAD in their QT as to how to handle my pressure on him

also, fyi, i

never

coach as scum. literally never. it goes against everything i believe about playing scum. the best advice any scum partner would ever get from me is "look town!"

1004 here he kind of starts trolling me a bit. this makes me think scum bc he said somewhere he likes trolling and manipulating people as scum

heh. trust me, if i were trying to manipulate you, i'd try a little harder than that. or maybe i'm trying to manipulate you here

the first paragraph and last sentence is smth he kept doing in marketplace where he basically kept saying that the way he was playing was undoubtedly his town game, and that there was no way this would be his scum game. one example from marketplace is 3715, last paragraph. everything he did in there was so that ffery/cabd would townread him when they did a metadive on him and then when I pushed on him here he came up with that paragraph and kept saying it was his town game. here he's doing a similar thing by comparing to marketplace. idk if it's actually alignment indicative and I don't know if he does this as town too but there's a bunch of parallels

*shrug* saying i wouldn't do X as scum or i'm obvtown and similar stuff is something i say regardless of alignment

what you seem to be misunderstanding here is the point of what i was saying. in marketplace, i was deliberately manipulating you because i wanted you to read me as town there. here i was pointing out that nacho's reasons for thinking i'm scum were a load of shit, and given how intimate he should be with my scum game, he should have known they were a load of shit.

I get that his read on casso was specific to nacho himself, but I was talking with him about how I didn't think SAD was legitimately trying to sort me and I'd expect he'd take kind of an interest in it considering it's the same general problem he was having with casso.

again, you're misunderstanding the actual problem i have with casso (or rather, nacho). i've never played with or read a game SAD was in before, and i suspect he's never read a game i was in before, either. i have no reference for how SAD would normally sort me, so all i can look at are his reasons and any inconsistencies in his read, and these are the things i questioned SAD about, and he answered my queries here. the issue with nacho is that the way he was sorting me didn't look like anything i'd expect from nacho-town, given his knowledge of my scum game.

also i did (and still do) think the way SAD was forming reads after replacing in looked town. you seem to be really hung up on how SAD wasn't sorting you properly; k. good for you. i'm seeing it differently

but the problem here is that there was absolutely no followup to this question. if he was legitimately noticing SAD flip flopping reads as town then he should be more interested in the fact that SAD did the same thing to me and I'd think he'd be way more skeptical. instead I gave my response 4407 and then there was no response to it.

i was expecting SAD to answer for himself before i chipped in my 0.02. how the fuck am i meant to know why he changed his read on you?

as for how he initially sorted you, i don't have an issue with it. i think SAD's playstyle is somewhat similar to mine; i tend to exaggerate cases based on my feelings about a player. when i say someone has done no scum hunting, what i actually mean is that all the scum hunting they're doing looks fake to me or isn't really scum hunting or is designed to look like they're doing something when they're really not, etc etc. this is what i think he was doing with you, and so him calling you out on doing no scum hunting doesn't look as bad to me as it seems to look to you.

second he still has a townread on SAD which I still don't get

what don't you get about it?

this is where he moved me up in his townpile and I don't think he ever gave a reason for it. note that this was right after my VCA wall where I accused casso of bussing SSK. I get the feeling he did this so that I'd take his side in the casso debate

actually my read on you becoming stronger had very little to do with the VCA you posted, although that was one of the things i was expecting you to do as town here. the fact that our thoughts on casso aligned here was just a bonus.

this felt manipulative, as in trying to get me off his partner and back into Casso. the phraseology of the last sentence is really off. like is it really so impossible to believe I'd wanna go for SAD first considering I've been scumreading SAD for a while now as opposed to Casso where I've done a shitton of waffling the whole game?

given your conviction about casso being scum like two pages prior or something (where you basically neglected to mention your SAD scum read was still strong as ever), i wanted to know why you'd seemingly changed your mind. *shrug*

you have this sick interpretation of everything i do being manipulative, but you don't seem to understand what i do when i'm really being manipulative. i don't manipulate by asking questions, i manipulate by making statements. like this one.

[zMuffinMan]

So, what of Arthur's playstyle made you believe he was someone that lynched based on the information that can be received from a lynch?

this isn't rocket surgery. i'll give you a hint; it's what he said.

[zMuffinMan]

the original line of questioning comes from you saying you find it troubling that he said that because a scum lynch is cause for celebration regardless. i'm telling you that what sad said comes from a different school of thought about this. i don't have to have played with someone before to know this. it's common sense. use your head.

[zMuffinMan]

My question is why you believed him by default as opposed to consider the alternative - that he was scum defending SSK - especially when someone that had experience playing with him (Tammy) implied that he wasn't of the info-lynch school of thought like you assumed.

first, if that was a defense of SSK, then fucking lol. i dunno why you think he'd use "information" from a lynch as a reason to defend him

second, i'm not sure tammy was even remembering correctly and i cbf scouring games to find out (you're welcome to if you think she was onto something). the question is: why do you think sad would lie about something so easily verifiable? especially if someone in the game knows he's lying about it

[zMuffinMan]

Casso, strong lean town but he's likely scum whiteknighting me if Sakura isn't scum

if your thoughts on casso being town are really that strong, why would sakura's alignment change things?

Geists, townish... I would probbly be scumreading him but for the gs. He could be a mafia doctor given we have a vig.

how do you have geists as "townish" if they'd be scum but for the gunsmith result?

also, what happened to your read on me / why wasn't i mentioned in your reads list? or what was with the whole fence-sitting accusation and how did things change there?

[zMuffinMan]

I'd trade this zmuffin in on the Cash Cabd Rail Tracer in a heartbeat.

:/ i spent the entire D1 tunneling town players in that game and D2 onwards i was leveraging a PR result on scum to get better reads. i actually really disliked my play in cash cabd (at least prior to the part where i knew one scum). if you wanna talk about things here, we can talk. i'm in observation mode at the moment but if there are specific reads you want me to talk about, i'll go over them.

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin?

regardless of SAD's alignment, i'm town here. so get over your boner for me, i don't swing that way, tia

[zMuffinMan]

Which other of my reads do you think are wrong?

i think the biggest disagreement is i don't think BRO('s slot) is scum. especially if i'm right about casso. your issue with his D2 play is meh considering he was V/LA for a majority of D2. i liked his posting when he was actually around D2 and i had him as a town read for D1 posting.

other than that, the differences seem pretty minor. what's your actual read on sad atm? and what did you like about norlkaz's recent posts?

can you explain why I moved up a tier in your townlist?

you looked town

[zMuffinMan]

What about BRO's play seemed town to you?

tone and attitude. i think i touched on this earlier in the game. i might go into a bit more detail after sleep (assuming game thread is still open)

care to explain why?

tbh, i don't remember specifically why (if you had a problem with it, why not bring it up at the time?). it was partially from reading and considering things overnight. the way you approached the VCA was one of the things i liked today (the conclusion you came to re: casso being in line with my own read was just a bonus). as above, i'll go through your ISO when i wake up if you want me to be more detailed here.

[zMuffinMan]

still not a fan of the SAD wagon, i'm looking at SAD/SSK in ISO and the interactions with SSK are almost too blatant to be scum-scum. like, way too blatant.

i have some thoughts about why f16 is thinking about the information thing the wrong way, but SAD can answer that before i talk about what i'm thinking here.

Muffin. His play in this game has been absolute shit, centered around one read that he's not sure of

um... yeah, no. it's not that i'm unsure of the read - i think you're scum, it is the read i'm most sure of in this game and nothing you're doing is changing my mind here - but i know that my reasons for thinking this aren't going to persuade anyone. especially when ffery seems convinced this is your town game, and others are supporting this idea.

i have some time over the next couple days so i can actually do some reading here. i might put effort into making a proper case on you while i'm doing this.

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Generic

[zMuffinMan]

Casso and geists have been proven innocent via gunsmith, IIRC?

only geists

[zMuffinMan]

Generic/Titus/SAD/zmuffin?

i'm like... 60% sure you're wrong on at least one of those names

Both Prophy and Geists back off from this. If RC is lying, we lynch him. It makes sense.

i was gonna talk about how little i liked this post (because even if i hadn't followed the events of asoiaf and even if RC didn't have a history of fake-claiming stuff as town, there are several possibilities i can think of that don't involve one or the other necessarily being scum), but given the likelihood generic is lying here it seems a moot point.

[zMuffinMan]

muffin help me out here and lynch for justice!

:>

no signs of that slot taking issue with the doc claim

even if this were the case (and BRO did have some issues with the doc claim, iirc - need to go back and check), did you voice concerns with the doc claim?

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler: BRO

VOTE: SSK

I doubt there's both a towndoc and scumdoc, and gunsmith+vig heavily implies scumdoc.

Hey guys I just realized that SSK could be another scum fake-claiming his buddy's doc because he knows that there probably isn't a real doc in the game (and thus they'd be trying to bait out a JK/BG, since we probably do have one of those).

Discuss.

Anyways, ive been deliberately not reading because after FEA and Marketplace my patience for huge fast moving games is at an all-time low. That said, I find Gunsmith not suspect in the least. I had a strong feeling this game would be influenced by the MTGS crossover game which had a similar setup(doc+vig+gunsmith vs Jailor+2 goons). So, I dunno. Working through this.

You should probably swap doc and gunsmith alignments.

Scum have a doc this game, 100%, which then implies a non-doc town PR (JK being more common than BG)

I'm thinking setup looks something like:

Gunsmith
Mason
Mason
JK (BG)
JOAT
Vig
Maybe town BP if the designer/reviewer understand that Vig is an anti-town role, but probably not b/c people are generally under the impression that Vig is a pro-town role because it allows town to do things at night.

Vs.
Goon
Goon/Traitor
Goon/x-shot Strongman
Doc
RB

His doctor claim has gone uncountered. I find it unlikely we have no protective role.

I'm going to go back to the setup-meta point and say that we probably have a JK/BG who can't be 100% sure on the CC, and even if they were biasing towards my train of thought on this would STILL not claim b/c

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Prophylaxative

[zMuffinMan]

you think titus is scum with generic?

[zMuffinMan]

how would that clear him

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think generic is that dumb - i'm pretty sure he knew it wouldn't clear him

it looked like he was trying to create last-minute WIFOM because he was pretty screwed, and titus's response to it looked townish

[zMuffinMan]

He also kept saying Proph was scum on the day prior to that.

yeah, with absolutely no conviction. he called him out for lurking, but there was no vote, no push to lynch him. come D4 (prior to RC's claim) where was the conviction that Proph was scum? literally the only mention of proph is in a passing note that titus reminded him of broken promises

Why?

bert, interactions with generic (i might pull up the relevant ones later though i see GM is starting to do that now), and i was going over his ISO last night and this post really stood out as really odd - like look at what he says about that stuffed crust wagon in particular <- he says this basically confirms cephrir as scum when he's only

leaning

town on you and pieguy.

what's your read on him?

It's very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town.

it's not actually as rare as you're making it out to be, especially in large games (i've seen much larger wagons that were entirely town on a townie - and games lost because of poor VCA like this).

Generic providing meta tells this easily also makes sense in the context of him lining up a mislynch. he would have brought it up easily in order to get the slot lynched

considering the "meta tell" was simply lurking and all proph would need to do to avoid this oh-so-strong meta tell is post, how do you get lining up a lynch from this?

what do you think of generic not even mentioning proph D4 prior to the RC stuff?

[zMuffinMan]

One of the big reasons I was worried about him was his pushing on SSK but not joining his wagon and his reaction was "How annoying!" I asked if that was a scumBert or a townBert reaction. No one really responded to it but I did end up asking Gen about it and he was like "I don't think that's a smoking gun." Is that him pointing to Bert town?

i went to look at this for context and i can't find where it happened (ctrl+f'd "annoy" and "smoking" in generic's ISO). i'd guess distancing if anything, given the only time he really pushed bert is D3 when it was fairly obvious we were lynching mafiaSSK.

Is this Gen discrediting me to defend his buddy or Gen defending for town cred?

i dunno. i'd guess the former. it was an odd post to make either way, given he was supposedly scum reading bert at the time and really shoulda been agreeing with you there.

Generic is, by no means scared of Titus, so I don't know why he would choose him to jailkeep

mm, he was kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place at the time and pretty much had to claim to have jailed titus or his vote at the start of the day wouldn't have made any sense (he had to act like he was suspicious of titus because no kill and JK etc etc)

i'm not reading all that much into generic's choice there. titus's responses to generic after it happened felt town.

[zMuffinMan]

And here's Gen's post

looks like he was trying to shake off your question. it was a round about way of not giving a real answer. rest of the post looks pretty bullshit, though, given his later call-out of proph was for lurking and there was no followup to that call-out

...So yeah, it's really not as poor as you're making it out to be. The only town on town lynches are fairly rare.

if you give five examples and one of those is a town on town lynch, how can you call it rare? i'm not even arguing about the rarity, i'm arguing that it happens and basing your argument on VCA is flawed; it's helpful sometimes, sure, but when your argument is "look at this wagon, it solidifies X as scum" no.

also i wasn't specifically talking about lynch wagons, but any wagon. and seeing as your VCA includes wagons on unflipped players, you seem to be talking about that, too. it's not that rare that full town wagons occur at different stages of a game (especially a large game)

[zMuffinMan]

"Votal analysis" is probably the most gimmicky pseudo-scumhunting tools I've seen in a long time.

what's your read on proph?

You're not pushing me because you don't think anyone will listen? You never struck me as a Cassandra type

*shrug* we both know you're not getting lynched today regardless of how much i scream and kick for it. it's a better use of my time to to hunt for scum outside of you before coming back to you. there's also the possibility i'm wrong about you but i don't really care at the moment

The only thing that's kinda worring me about Muffin is his kinda switch on Proph. Like I remember him saying something along the lines of "[his] reads are so weird I want to call him town." And now he's hardcore scumreading Bert's slot and maybe trying to manipulate me.

i've been thinking bert was scum for a while now. i did feel that proph looking completely oblivious to the game state felt kinda townish, but it was nothing strong (i was looking back at it and realised it could have easily been faked) and that was before the generic flip and before i read other posts by him.

[zMuffinMan]

I mean, I'm acknowledging that wagons comprised of town on a town lynch /do/ happen, but things that happen once per 50+ wagons aren't worth considering.

i don't know where you're getting that number from or what sample games you're looking at, but the number of times it happens (especially in large games) is far higher than that.

the point is you're using reasoning like, "there's scum here because VCA and i don't think it's X or Y so it must be Z" <- that's terrible logic.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh Muffin. I do so hope I'm right about you.

i'm town, but don't tell anyone - i want to see who else figures it out

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, I don't feel like he can be very flexible, even if he tries. Proven (I think) by his continued suspicion on Nacho even though we've done all we can to prove his innocence

wait up... when did anyone do anything to prove nacho's innocence? the best i've seen is ffery describing why she thinks nacho is town, and that was because of stuff that she thinks she sees but hasn't explained in any substantial way that can be talked about or assessed. i know you think he's town, too, but i don't remember you ever talking about why. i may be less flexible sometimes, but that's only because i don't change my reads unless i have a good reason to, and nothing either casso head has done has given me good reason to think they're town.

Sometimes he just won't move on until a player is gone

i've put casso aside in my "casso list" for now. i'm not going to call him town, but i'm looking for scum outside of him for now. that's about the best i'll do for you.

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not seeing titus-scum here. if the case has something to do with generic and yesterday, then wow. look at titus's posts yesterday and read how titus was actually responding to generic. that didn't look like scum-scum interaction. if the case is something else, then i haven't seen it talked about lately? the closest thing to a case i've seen recently is proph's reasons and they're pretty fucking weak.

[zMuffinMan]

ok. suppose a hypothetical situation where nacho is scum and you're town; what exactly does he have to lose by doing that? he has everything to gain if you either reacted badly orrrrrrrrrrrrr if people thought he'd only do that as town. sounds like a smart scum play.

[zMuffinMan]

like yeah, he could be town doing that, but that doesn't make him town

[zMuffinMan]

So because, people would think he would be town by doing it, he has all reason to do it as scum?

that is generally the goal of any scum player, yes

Or are you suggesting that you need to have an IC or Cop Inno to be trusted?

that's not really what i'm saying. you're saying that him wagoning you was town because he backed off and he wouldn't do that as scum (or he wouldn't wagon you in the first place as scum or whatever, don't really care). i'm just saying that this isn't exactly a difficult thing for him to do as scum and it's not telling to me one way or the other.

[zMuffinMan]

are you asking me why scum would buddy town? or what are you asking here?

[zMuffinMan]

He could have just avoided driving a wagon onto me.

maybe. but you prob woulda been wagoned at some point in this game, sooooooooooooo i'm not really seeing the big deal?

the flow of the events doesnt make me think it was scum motivated

what flow of events?

[zMuffinMan]

:/ i mean what specifically are you referring to? what specifically is the flow of events that makes you think it wasn't scum motivated? just him forming a wagon on you then disbanding it after you ate or was there something else to this?

[zMuffinMan]

ok. part of why i think casso is scum is because of playing as scum with nacho in marketplace. but i'm not particularly interested in discussing it further today because he's clearly not getting lynched in the immediate future

where's your read on titus come from again? and what's your read on proph?

[zMuffinMan]

These didn't just come out of nowhere

and, along with these cases (which I never, ever do) I've been pretty clearly been defending them even when Cabd and GM had both disagreed. How did you miss these, muffin?

i am aware you've been defending them, i just don't recall ever reading a case outlining why they're town. the first and third quote walls you just posted, for example, are

not

reasons to think they're town. the second quote wall is about as close to a town case on them as i've seen (i don't even remember you writing it, and it was apparently written 160+ pages ago so that could have something to do with it). i'm looking at it now and wondering how you came to the conclusions you seem to have come to based on the stuff you were actually quoting. it's probably a huge waste of time, but if you want me to break it down and explain exactly why i disagree with your assessment there i can

[zMuffinMan]

sad do you think proph is town?

[zMuffinMan]

sad,

vote proph

[zMuffinMan]

why are you still self-voting sad

[zMuffinMan]

her "well I can't be scum with Gen 'cause he claimed a JK on me!"

i don't think she's ever said that. i think she was saying she can't be scum with generic for prior interactions and for arguing with generic in the way she did. and while i'm kind of meh about her proclaiming it's not possible she could do that as scum, i do think that gen interactions make her likely town

that's one of the few slots that hasn't delivered a strong dose of indignance when targeted

do you think indignance is a tell? i could pretend i'm appalled that people can't read me

[zMuffinMan]

have trouble seeing /all/ the scum jumping onto the opposing wagon, and scum don't usually vote right after the other

i am typing this very slowly with my left hand while my right hand sits firmly planted on my face. this is extremely naive thinking - on the off chance you're actually town, stop pushing this sort of stuff

[zMuffinMan]

i think you could have included the next 5 words to that quote

[zMuffinMan]

generic's lack of interaction with me is most likely due to me being mostly a non-factor - probably the same reason he didn't interact with norlkaz much, either

if you're actually pushing this as a reason to think i'm scum, then fucking lol

[zMuffinMan]

proph

do you usually hunt (or can you show me where you've previously hunted) for scum based solely on the

number

of "interactions" with flipped scum? also, i gather you have experience with generic - is the idea that generic would have fewer interactions with his buddies based on meta or is it purely an assertion?

See like this feels fake and ooc

did you actually read proph's post?

coz he's literally suggesting people are town/scum based purely on the number of interactions. like, read it.

[zMuffinMan]

side note,

Want to take some time rereading this slot - I cleared him as town early, and some people are saying he's scum and I'm pretty confused

this looks like scum trying to set up a back door into later changing his read on pieguy and doesn't look like a genuine thought process. "i'm reading pie as town, but since some others are calling him scum, i could be wrong"

[zMuffinMan]

@sad

the first line was me going, "you cannot seriously believe this has anything to do with anything other than activity," and the second line was a continuation of this

I'm scumreading you because the scumteam did not interact with you at all

OK. this is an indefensible statement. what now?

you're not taking into account several factors that affect interactions (like activity, playstyle, familiarity with other players, gamestate, etc)

conveniently, pushing this angle means you don't have to assess my posts and find real reasons to think i'm scum

[zMuffinMan]

he said he read a game of generic's where generic didn't interact with his buddies "much" - i'm not sure if it was before or after he wrote that big post (i would guess after since it seems like an afterthought)

[zMuffinMan]

Bert's slot is prob town after.

is this an unfinished thought?

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think that Bert was scum, especially considering his recent string of games where he's scum and plays like absolute and complete shit and this not being the game where he breaks his rut so throughly and completely

i don't see anything here that explains why you don't think bert was scum

and bert's been playing like shit as town a lot recently, too. thing is, even when he's played like shit as town recently there were things he did that i could see making some sense coming from a town mindset, and i don't remember seeing that happen here

[zMuffinMan]

Guys I'm gonna let you in on a little secret.

It's muffin/pieguy.

i'm gonna let you in on a little secret

no

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin whats your read on Pieguy

town?

he's been a complete non-factor and him shutting down and not posting anything worth reading lately has me worrying a bit, and i really don't like how he's got this idea of a scum team in his head and is dropping all analysis in favour of tunneling those reads, but i got pie-town feels from his posting on earlier days

[zMuffinMan]

Here lets lynch actual scum.

stop being bad

[zMuffinMan]

sad,

talk about the reasons you're shit at reading me so i can tell you why you're wrong and we can go back to lynching proph

[zMuffinMan]

POE

your reads are bad. stop having bad reads

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote
Vote: SAD

[zMuffinMan]

Proph's recent posts about Generic interactions feel genuine

why? he did nothing outside of counting the number of interactions and suggesting that the people with more interactions are town. there's a complete lack of analysis of the actual interactions.

I prefer Muffin or Titus for today

why?

[zMuffinMan]

i was more asking what your reasons for wanting to lynch me or titus are

coz the only mention of me i've seen is something about one of talah's posts and i don't really know what your current thoughts on titus are

[zMuffinMan]

it's not really that interesting

people are calling proph town for <insert shit reason that makes no sense> and it's clear proph isn't getting lynched today

with <24 hours, if it's between titus and sad, i prefer a sad lynch

[zMuffinMan]

short version:

i think bert was scum, if this thread is still open when i wake up, i'll pull up stuff that stood out to me (and i'll pull up the interactions with generic/ssk that i thought felt off while i'm at it)

as for proph himself, i don't get the feeling he's actually trying to find scum. all the scum hunting he's doing looks fake. the VCA stuff was nonsense, and now he's moved on to counting interactions (and calling people town for having more interactions without actually analysing the interactions).

[zMuffinMan]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/MLysvRegWqL39

[zMuffinMan]

given we had day talk for a while this was actually a rather small qt

i blame apathy