Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[quadz08]

Flay isn't implying that newbie mods aren't randomizing their setups, he's saying that the data is proving that some mods aren't randomizing. (Or we're breaking laws of nature.) You can't really argue and say "don't punish us for something we aren't doing" when people are clearly doing it. *shrug*

[quadz08]

Hi!

I am going to pop in here and speak sort-of-unofficially on behalf of Singer since the internet at our new house

still

isn't set up (grumbletimewarnergrumble).

There was a plan in place that she had discussed with me to switch the queue over to the varied setups, as discussed in the past. Then August happened, and changes to the newbie queue just didn't seem that important anymore, and fell off of her radar. I'd guess that once the house move-in is all finished and done with and we've settled in more completely, that things like fixing the newbie setup will become more of a priority again.

Again, unofficial statements from husband-of-listmod, but that's my thoughts on the subject.

P-EDIT: SC, why does it matter if singer just does the randomization for you anyway? You know that you aren't doing it, and good for you. Now you don't have to worry about it; it's not like it actually changes anything for you anyway.

[quadz08]

I really don't see why it matters. Literally all it does is change it so that Singer is going to random.org instead of you.

[quadz08]

Lots of things happening lately, is the biggest part of it. No internet at the house atm, so she can't check regularly.

Plus, I think VRK advised that she leave a certain number of newbies in the queue at any time so mods can pick up newbies to replace flakers?

[quadz08]

The way the newbie queue works is that if a newbie doesn't pick up a role PM at the start of the game, the mod automatically pulls the next newbie on the list. That's what I was referring to.

[quadz08]

^

[quadz08]

Granted, not all mods are supergood at that unwritten rule (coughbuttonscough) but that's the general idea.

[quadz08]

To accept a scummy, you should have to play in a newbie game. Community service for the 'better' player, and Will be good for newer players.

Thoughts?

My thought is "no"

[quadz08]

Coercing someone into playing a game is a recipe for disaster. They won't pay attention or play for the right reasons.

[quadz08]

There's not a problem with ICs anymore in the newbie queue, and hasn't been for ages.

[quadz08]

It was a problem for a while even with just 1 IC, iirc.

[quadz08]

Hi. Singer's computer has a cracked screen and she is also sick.

Wheeeeeeeeeeee.

[quadz08]

That'd be me, yes. And I am involved.

[quadz08]

It's not so much clique-y as there is a fairly standard (though constantly shifting) meta through most of the site. You don't get that in RTR, specifically because the players who are "stricter" (bad term, but I can't think of a better one) about the meta don't play in newbie games, 99% of the time.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, I think. One step at a time.

[quadz08]

It's not so much clique-y as...

No, there's a large part of the community here that is definitely cliquey and elitist. You might not see it because you've been around for a long time, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely off-putting for newbies stepping out of RTR.

I don't think it's any more 'clique-y' than it was when I first stepped off the newbie boat, and I honestly feel that it's probably less so.

[quadz08]

I'm too excited that "we have too many ICs" is an issue to decide if it's really a problem we want to "fix."

[quadz08]

I actually quite like that idea as a concept.

[quadz08]

You could also just say that you have to have SE'd to be an IC?

[quadz08]

I do think that 99/100 times, "this setup is boring as fuck now" trumps all of those things.

[quadz08]

^

[quadz08]

As soon as I saw buttons say "radical new idea" I knew he was gonna bring up vengefuls. *shakes fist*

Vengefuls are bad for the Newbie queue because of non-standard mechanics,

which we should avoid in learning games

.

[quadz08]

And I'd rather not be forced to use 3week deadlines because I think they're obscenely long in all but the largest games?

Somebody's gonna have to make the change here.

[quadz08]

That's how I thought it was at the moment, actually.

SO

[quadz08]

I have been told otherwise, I belieeeeeeve more recently than Tierce was told that (I PMed Tierce to ask).

But I don't really remember, so.

[quadz08]

Hi!

Singer and I discussed this this morning and yesterday. I am going to be looking through the approved open setups, including past newbie setups and CES' 2of3, to find 9-player setups that will work for a newbie game. We will likely be using only some of the possibilities from semi-open setups (for example, all of the F11 setups except for the mountainous one). The possible setups will just be in a list; that is, rather than saying "these three setups from F11, these four from 2of4, and Bird 9p," it will say something like this:

-Doc, Cop, 5VT, Goon, RB
-Doc, 6VT, 2 Goons
-Cop, 6VT, 2 Goons
-Cop, 6VT, Goon, Rolecop
-JK, Cop, 5VT, Goon, Rolecop
-Macho Cop, Doc, 5VT, 2 Goons

etc.

The idea is that there will be a pretty decent number of possible setups. There will be no way to narrow down precisely which setup you're in by any single flip, or for a scumteam to know precisely which setup they're in based on their roles. All setups will be for 9 players.

We'll be working on the other stuff mentioned in this thread once this is resolved.

Progress!

P.S., just so everyone is aware: I'm having this conversation with you all because singer is at work.

[quadz08]

So after looking through all of the 9p Open setups (which there are surprisingly few of on the wiki, actually), the great majority (possibly all) of the setups will be coming from F11, 2of4, and 2of3.

The following list has 12 setups in it, all from F11, 2of4, and 2of3. The setups that are known to be strongly unbalanced (mountainous F11, Doc/Cop 2of4, Doc/VT 2of4) have been removed.

Possible Newbie Setups

(2of4)
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
(F11)
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
(2of3)
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 Goon
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 1-shot Strongman, 1 Goon
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 Goon
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 1-shot Strongman, 1 Goon

It would be nice to include Bird 9p (Macho Cop + Doc + 5 VT vs 2 Goons) and JK9 (JK + Tracker + 5 VT vs 2 Goons), but the Macho Cop and the Tracker would give away the setup immediately to one player, as well as giving it up upon flip. Is it worth throwing in a couple more setups that include a Macho Cop and/or a Tracker?


EDIT: changed to make F11 setups correct. This means only one RB setup; ideas to deal with this? (Drop it? Add a roleblocker somewhere else?)

[quadz08]

Only singer and the mod know what the setup is. The players only know the list of possible setups. (That's why we can't include Bird and JK9 without adding other macho cop / tracker setups.)

And woops, that's my bad. I'll fix that.

[quadz08]

Wait, shit. That means there's only one setup with a roleblocker. >_>

[quadz08]

Yes, there's more possible variance in fakeclaiming, which I think is a net positive. Remember that balance is of relatively less importance in a newbie setup than in others, as well.

[quadz08]

Needlessly complex, IMO.

[quadz08]

I suppose, but it's a pretty simple list or 12, rather than a series of "if this, then that" or "this game is from thiiissss group of setups, but your next game is going to be from thiiissss group of setups".

I think having just one list is simpler, personally.

[quadz08]

We're specifically looking for more variability in setups, though, and the only way to accomplish that is by putting in more setups. And again, this allows for a broader spectrum of fakeclaims, etc.

P-Edit: I don't see how uncertainty really aids scum that much here, and more importantly, I don't see why that matters.

[quadz08]

I'd like to hear other thoughts on that, since I was under the impression that the mountainous setup was the entire reason that F11 stopped being used in the first place.

[quadz08]

Right, which is why I asked for solutions for another RB setup.

What if the list of possible setups looked like this:

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

I re-ordered the setups, removed one duplicate, and added a few that are a combination of the roles used in the other three setups. Thoughts?

[quadz08]

I don't think doc and jailer should ever be combined. (Doc/Jail is ridiculously town sided vs rolecop at least.)

Not according to the newbie data thread. It's less townsided than cop/JK, anyway, but we can probably afford to do away with both of them if we wanted to.

P-Edit: Thanks, bork. I'll drop that one or add another RC/Strongman combo somewhere.

[quadz08]

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

Changed it to Goon / Strongman; there is now no game with 2 scum PRs. (Not a good/bad thing, just a note.)

[quadz08]

Ah, shit, I forgot about that whole awful debate. Lemme see what it looks like if I drop every setup with both JK and RB.

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

I added a couple other setups with Roleblockers so there wasn't just the one.

[quadz08]

That's why it's easier to just drop the JK/RB combo entirely. *shrug*

[quadz08]

Hmmmmm... fair. The newbie data thread did also show a pretty strong town-sided swing to every setup with a JK in it...

Let's try something.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

[quadz08]

More or less, that's what it's become, yes.

[quadz08]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

If it worked the way I said it did...

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

...Then this wouldn't be a problem.

There would be some unbalanced combinations (especially unbalanced in the scum direction), and simply removing those from the possible lineup would create an overall balanced environment while avoiding this "tons of setups" problem.

I'm not sure that really makes it simpler. I'm going to try to pare down the most recent list into a smaller number of setups.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

13 setups there, and I don't think there's anything terribly unbalanced. Alternatively, if we went with mastin's suggestion, there are (I believe) 24 possible setups. In addition, it runs into the issue of having 2 town PRs vs. 2 goons, which is pretty town-heavy, or things like Doc vs Strongman which are pretty scumsided. If you then take out specific setups, you'd say so something like this:

The newbie setup is:
1 or 2 of {Tracker, Doc, Cop} and 5 or 6 Vanilla Townies (for a total of 7 members of the Town) vs. 1 Goon and 1 of {Goon, Roleblocker, Rolecop, 1-shot Strongman}
There are some combinations of these roles that will not be chosen. These combinations are:
2 Town PRs vs 2 Goons
Doctor vs Strongman
Doctor vs Roleblocker

We feel that this is more complicated than "here is a list of possible setups," as well as being much, much simpler for singer to randomize, etc. (Throw list into random.org, play first setup that comes out.)


Re: posting games as they fill. The newbie queue should be getting updated at right around once every 2 days. Most of the time, that's just about 1 game per update (though there are exceptions, naturally). This is ~twice as often as it was being updated in the past, for comparison's sake.

[quadz08]

1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons1
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

I dropped one of the Cop+VT setups, made the scum role distributions a little more balanced, and organized the list a little bit more cleanly.

I'd like to hear more opinions on whether Mastin's method (which includes more potential setups than this does as I wrote it before; to narrow them down to the same number of options I have would require several more qualifiers) or the list method is simpler for newbies to understand.

[quadz08]

Also I'm not sure if it can be fixed without creating more problems, but if there is a roleblocker in the setup as you're listed them, there's a cop. (i think you'd need a third variable to be able to stop that from happening, but that gets too complicated)

Made a small change to remove this issue.

[quadz08]

Just those 6 setups, Zach? And no other scum PRs?

[quadz08]

I actually rather like that. That is a lot more eloquent than what I had, still allows for a similar degree of scum fakeclaims. It gives scum a little bit of information (how many PRs) but that's relatively minor.

Thoughts from the crowd?

[quadz08]

Singer and I don't like the miller / IC. Weird alignment stuff is no bueno in newbies (Also, the miller doesn't fall into any line with an investigation, so it's essentially a named townie.). The concept is cool, though, if there's an alternative role to replace that space.

[quadz08]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

[quadz08]

I think it's quite elegant.

[quadz08]

I think the balance issues are of relatively limited importance in a newbie. *shrug*

Also, singer and I have discussed it, and we've decided that in the case that the Jailkeeper and Roleblocker target one another, the Jailkeeper will take priority. This means the Roleblocker will be roleblocked and protected from a non-strongman kill, effectively turning it into a Doc-VT situation for the night.


P-Edit: Doc/JK vs Rolecop is actually incredibly townsided. See the newbie setup data on 2of4.

[quadz08]

maybe the solution is just to get rid of the diagonals? I don't think you lose anything by getting rid of goon, rb, doctor vs. goon and you avoid RB, Cop vs. rolecop

What should the setup be called? Matrix6?

Removing the diags is worth thinking about. Singer and I will brain at it later.

Singer called it "Queueb" (pronounced 'cube') in discussion with Quilford last night.

Unless there's something I'm missing--and I acknowledge that I haven't played or looked at Little Italy in a long time--I just don't really think the strongman has any place in a newbie game.

Strongman is becoming more common in the site meta (in my experience, at least), and I don't think there's a reason it

shouldn't

be in a newbie game. *shrug*

[quadz08]

that's a weird solution. it seems like the RB should get priority over a JK if anyone does, but i guess so long as there's a policy.

(Agreed here, doesn't seem to make a major difference other way as it seems to only apply to when they target each other, I think?)

Presumably the jailer doesn't get priority in a roleblock chain?

What do you mean in a roleblock chain?

If there's a chain of JK targets RB target Goon, then the Jailkeeper's action resolves first because it's at the top of the chain. If it's RB targets JK targets Goon, the RB's action resolves first because it's at the top of the chain. *shrug*

[quadz08]

Do you have a suggestion to replace it with?

[quadz08]

I think 3 blocking roles sounds awful; it's a headache for the mod and the players.

[quadz08]

I don't think it's nearly as well balanced as Quilford's, and I think the strongman is a much better role for newbies than a commuter. That's a personal preference thing, though.

[quadz08]

I just find strongman less complicated and more useful for understanding the game. But I"m pretty sure that's just because of how my brain works. *shrug*

[quadz08]

That's probably much better, CES.

CES':

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town 1-shot BP	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Quil's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

None of Phoenicks' presented matrices seem feasible for balance reasons. (Plus, miller bad in newbies.)

I actually do like using a BP town rather than a strongman mafia; it's simpler, and BP is already a normal role modifier, so we don't have to worry about that hullabaloo.

[quadz08]

Millers are considered semi-bastard by a lot of players. Putting them in newbie games isn't a good idea.

[quadz08]

We want to introduce PR discussion.

[quadz08]

It's one of those two. Official decision should be happening soon.

[quadz08]

No diags.

[quadz08]

You learn to play mafia best by playing mafia. ICs are nice as they're players who are supposed to explain their actions ingame/postgame, but doing something like that isn't going to help. It will be a poor crutch, at best.

Also, the name is going to be Matrix6 or The Queueb, probably. Also still in discussion.

[quadz08]

quadz/singer: Anything new on this front? The Newbie queue is still using 2of4. Do we have a timeframe for this setup to be implemented? The only thing I see actually implemented from Post 624 is the games-started-in-batches bit.

Progress is being made on this. Writing role PMs/re-writing newbie queue info/etc.

[quadz08]

Yes.

[quadz08]

No diags are used in the setup.

[quadz08]

Forcing people to IC is a terrible idea. If you don't want to IC, you're practically guaranteed to not do the job properly.

Also, if the SE queue gets shorter, then I imagine the number of SEs per game will drop to match.

[quadz08]

I would personally not ever IC. I appreciate those who do, but I simply do not feel that I would be any good at it, and would be doing the newbies a disservice by ICing. I would SE if we didn't have a million billion already. *shrug*

[quadz08]

Some people might simply have difficulty doing that, possibly because they aren't confident enough in their own play to feel that they can make such a "judgement" (putting it in quotes because I don't really think it's a judgement, but moreso a constructive critique). Others may just not know what to say.

This is my problem, sort of. I just can't hold critiques of 8 players in my brain over the course of a month and a half. (There's a reason I'm much better at face-to-face/chat mafia than forum mafia.)

[quadz08]

Good catch, patzer. I don't think anyone realized that your simpler version would cover it, to be honest.

[quadz08]

But I've also told Mina previously that I'm willing to help trying to design a better set-up if she sets up a PT with some other smart set-up designers.

I'd wanted to do newbie surveys first, so as to confirm that people were getting confused by the set-up in real life and not just in my imagination. Otherwise, I was afraid of investing too much time into solving a problem we don't have and then confirmation-biasing ourselves.

Reminder #22566 that I need to do newbie surveys.

I have no issue starting this PT if people want it, though, as long as there's no guarantee we use whatever design it comes up with.

Can I /in to this PT purely as an observer who wants to watch the creative process unfold and thus learn about setup design?

You're gonna get weird stuff out of a newbie setup design - a fair chunk of what goes into designing a newbie setup doesn't matter elsewhere.