Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[zoraster]

will people who launch into the game know which of the setups they're getting?

Also, F11 doesn't have a roleblocker in the solo cop and solo doctor situations.

[quadz08]

Only singer and the mod know what the setup is. The players only know the list of possible setups. (That's why we can't include Bird and JK9 without adding other macho cop / tracker setups.)

And woops, that's my bad. I'll fix that.

[quadz08]

Wait, shit. That means there's only one setup with a roleblocker. >_>

[The Baltimore Sun]

Hmm, those set-ups are in part balanced by knowing there's only a subset of roles that can be claimed and counterclaimed, though?

Here say if the mafia have a 1-shot strongman then they can safely claimdoc? As they know it's a JK9 set-up but the individual cop and JK (if both present) will not know this.
Edit: wait, cop/doc 2/of4 is gone so I guess not. Still.

[quadz08]

Yes, there's more possible variance in fakeclaiming, which I think is a net positive. Remember that balance is of relatively less importance in a newbie setup than in others, as well.

[Human Destroyer]

Hrm...maybe if each game had it's own "set" of setups it could use?

Like, some would use F11, some would use 2of3, some would use 2of4?

And then maybe Bird and JK9 could be seperate?

[quadz08]

Needlessly complex, IMO.

[Human Destroyer]

Well having 12 possible setups per game isn't exactly simple either...

[quadz08]

I suppose, but it's a pretty simple list or 12, rather than a series of "if this, then that" or "this game is from thiiissss group of setups, but your next game is going to be from thiiissss group of setups".

I think having just one list is simpler, personally.

[Human Destroyer]

I think the general advantage to separating games by whether they're F11, 2of4, or 2of3 is really that it makes the smaller number of possible setups easier to digest for newer players in an individual game, rather than them having to think about a whopping 12 possible setups per game.

I guess it doesn't particularly matter, but y'know, food for thought

[zoraster]

Yeah I think one problem you're going to face is that adding uncertainty largely aids scum in this situation, so doc vs. 2 goons might be at least somewhat plausibly balanced when there are a limited number of roles available, thus limiting fake claiming and the like, add in uncertainty and suddenly you're in trouble.

Personally, I'd just rotate the variable setups (can we use this term instead of "semi-open" since that term means two different things?) rather than hide which variable setup you're using.

[quadz08]

We're specifically looking for more variability in setups, though, and the only way to accomplish that is by putting in more setups. And again, this allows for a broader spectrum of fakeclaims, etc.

P-Edit: I don't see how uncertainty really aids scum that much here, and more importantly, I don't see why that matters.

[Zachrulez]

Wait, shit. That means there's only one setup with a roleblocker. >_>

I don't think using the entire setup will be a horribly bad thing personally. I do think there is some value in teaching mountainous play even if the odds aren't in town's favor. (Plus a roleblocker flip guarantees the power roles and puts the remaining scum in a really bad spot.)

[quadz08]

I'd like to hear other thoughts on that, since I was under the impression that the mountainous setup was the entire reason that F11 stopped being used in the first place.

[borkjerfkin]

I thought I remembered that Doc/JK 2 of 4 was the most townsided, not Doc/Cop 2 of 4

Otherwise if you're worried about the roleblocker thing you can change Cop/VT 2 of 4 to have a roleblocker in it instead of a rolecop, unless that's too scumsided.

[zoraster]

Mountainous should not be used as a setup. Sure, there's value to it. But it's pretty minimal and it's totally unbalanced.

[Zachrulez]

Mountainous should not be used as a setup. Sure, there's value to it. But it's pretty minimal and it's totally unbalanced.

At a glance the cop+doc variant of the setup becomes similarly townsided without the possibility of the mountainous setup to the point where I don't think there's any value to the setup unless mountainous is a possibility.

[zoraster]

how so? Mafia have a roleblocker.

[Zachrulez]

how so? Mafia have a roleblocker.

Who has a game breaking effect in favor of town if he is lynched first. (And the game break is with 100% of roleblocker games now instead of 50% and will be possible more often than it was in the original F11) Not even the mountainous setup is similarly game breaking for scum if town is lynched.

[Zachrulez]

On that note, I don't really understand the issue with the mountainous setup. They're not impossible to win as town. Heck, I've done it before.

[quadz08]

Right, which is why I asked for solutions for another RB setup.

What if the list of possible setups looked like this:

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

I re-ordered the setups, removed one duplicate, and added a few that are a combination of the roles used in the other three setups. Thoughts?

[Zachrulez]

I don't think doc and jailer should ever be combined. (Doc/Jail is ridiculously town sided vs rolecop at least.)

[zoraster]

how so? Mafia have a roleblocker.

Who has a game breaking effect in favor of town if he is lynched first. (And the game break is with 100% of roleblocker games now instead of 50% and will be possible more often than it was in the original F11) Not even the mountainous setup is similarly game breaking for scum if town is lynched.

yeah, but that's part of the game at least. Roleblocker is killed game is much harder for town. Not a surprise. It's not really different than in a cop vs. 2 goons setup where the cop is lynched or killed d1/n1.

[Zachrulez]

how so? Mafia have a roleblocker.

Who has a game breaking effect in favor of town if he is lynched first. (And the game break is with 100% of roleblocker games now instead of 50% and will be possible more often than it was in the original F11) Not even the mountainous setup is similarly game breaking for scum if town is lynched.

yeah, but that's part of the game at least. Roleblocker is killed game is much harder for town. Not a surprise. It's not really different than in a cop vs. 2 goons setup where the cop is lynched or killed d1/n1.

No, roleblocker lynch in cop+doc of F11 is gamebreaking. (Unless the scum does a great job with the kill.) Losing a cop in the cop vs 2 goons setup is not. Town's chance of salvaging that kind of game is higher than the goon's chance of salvaging the game after a roleblocker lynch. (Goon's chance is slim and play doesn't factor in unlike on the town side.)

[zoraster]

it's not broken if it's only Day 2 when that happens. Whether it's ideal or not may be another question, but it's not "broken" any more than having a couple of guilty cop reports is "broken"

The reason it's not is that scum had a chance to: (1) protect their RB by not having him be suspected and (2) protect their RB by trying to make sure that even the goon was lynched first (3) kill either the doc or the cop N1 (30% chance randomly, supposedly higher if scum get a power role read on someone).