Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[CityElectric]

/Double post because quoting on an iPod is not fun.

Since the SE queue is always huge and backlogged, why not make the games have 3 SEs instead of 2?

I have been thinking about this as well. On the one hand it seems like a good fix, on the other hand, that makes the Experienced/Newbie ratio 4/5 which may be a bit much...

The more I think about cfj's post, the more I feel like there is no real reason for the SE requirements/numbers in game to change.

[Xalxe]

Since the SE queue is always huge and backlogged, why not make the games have 3 SEs instead of 2?

Feature not a bug.

[Mr. Flay]

Feature not a bug.

[YYR]

Anyone know why the SE queue is quite so long, anyway? People wanting to play with newbies in particular? People who think 2of4 is a

really great

setup? People who think they aren't very good at playing still and want games with ICs in where they won't be shouted at?

Personally, there aren't very many avenues to play semi-opens. Plus they tend to be shorter.

[UberNinja]

CRAZY IDEA ALERT

How about closing the Road to Rome entirely, and moving all newbie traffic to Central Park and Little Italy?

Sounds crazy on face, but hear me out! There would still be a Newbie Queue, which would be optional, but it'd work much differently.

Newbies would come to the site, register in the newbie queue, and they'd be paired up with a more experienced player (SE/ICs could remain the same essentially, but with SEs taking 1 padawan, and ICs taking 2 or 3 at a time). These relationships would be consistent across the game, and perhaps across multiple games, until the newbie graduated as an SE him/herself.

Of course they'd not be guaranteed to be on the same faction with their mentor, but they'd still be guaranteed a bit of adapted tutoring and mentoring specific to themselves and their play style. They'd learn mafia "in the wild" instead of in some carefully controlled atmosphere, and when they decided to leave RTR it wouldn't be like throwing them to the wolves, because they'd already have been baptized by fire, so to speak.

PROS:

That way each newbie would get a personalized "coach"
Multiple newbies could be assigned to ICs, perhaps 2 or 3 each
They wouldn't learn in a sanitized atmosphere, they'd play real games
Flakers could be replaced easily from the same newbie queue

CONS:

-It requires people to actually change something, and we know how receptive the community is to change around here...
-This scheme of doing things would be a bit different, and singersigner/successor would have different responsibilities


I randomly thought of this... would it help? Or would it be a disaster?

I actually think it'd be fucking amazing.

[zoraster]

The reason to have newbies is also in large part so that pure new players don't become the large contingent in our other queues. it's not a bad though, but I don't think it really does us much good. The way newbies work now is pretty good, I think?

[RichardGHP]

How exactly are newbie games "sanitized" compared to other games (aside from being semi-open)?

[greygnarl]

I think that things that would get you policy lynched in other games are tolerated.

[Mr. Flay]

That's not sanitized, that's... tolerant? Understanding? Patient, maybe (though not infinitely).

Meta is different when you have that high a percentage of newbies.

[Zoidberg]

He's got a point though. As a person who very recently was a newbie I can tell you that stepping from RTR to the rest of the site is like 2 different worlds.

I'm a pretty experienced guy when it comes to mafia (played hundreds of times IRL, just not on a forum) and I struggled; I imagine people who are true mafia newbies would feel quite out of place.

[N]

I don't understand UN's proposal. Is it newbie games should be a mini normal or open instead of always 2of4 or is it that newbies should be shoved into regular games with one IC there to baby them while everyone else is trying to play a game?

[CityElectric]

He's got a point though. As a person who very recently was a newbie I can tell you that stepping from RTR to the rest of the site is like 2 different worlds.

I'm a pretty experienced guy when it comes to mafia (played hundreds of times IRL, just not on a forum) and I struggled; I imagine people who are true mafia newbies would feel quite out of place.

I agree with Zoidberg here. I don't quite know what it is, but RTR is different from the rest of the site. It may be that my first game outside RTR was a Large Theme (RedCoyote's Ladies Night), but it wasn't easy. I haven't ventured to other queues besides the Open queue yet, but I don't feel like I would have had an easy time in there as a newbie with just two games under my belt.

I don't understand UN's proposal. Is it newbie games should be a mini normal or open instead of always 2of4 or is it that newbies should be shoved into regular games with one IC there to baby them while everyone else is trying to play a game?

The latter, I think. Not sure whether it's a good idea.

[callforjudgement]

RTR's meta is all over the place; the rest of the site is rather more homogeneous.

This is almost certainly a direct consequence of putting 6 newbies in every game. (And not one that should be surprising, or discouraged.)

[Mr. Flay]

RTR's meta is all over the place; the rest of the site is rather more homogeneous.

This is almost certainly a direct consequence of putting 6 newbies in every game. (And not one that should be surprising, or discouraged.)

Agree on both counts.

[Zoidberg]

the rest of the site is rather more homogeneous.

Leaving aside for a moment the debate around whether or not a homogenous meta is a good thing or a bad thing, the fact remains that while RTR games are doing a good job teaching the mechanics of mafia, I don't believe they're doing a good job teaching newbies how not to draw the ire of basically every other player on site.

I'm not sure there's an easy solution. This site is very clique-y and there's really no way to break into a clique without making waves.

[quadz08]

It's not so much clique-y as there is a fairly standard (though constantly shifting) meta through most of the site. You don't get that in RTR, specifically because the players who are "stricter" (bad term, but I can't think of a better one) about the meta don't play in newbie games, 99% of the time.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, I think. One step at a time.

[Rob14]

the goal isn't to exhaust our supplies of SEs and ICs. A long queue there is great.

Not so great for the players, though. It's difficult to know when you're going to reach the top of the queue, so it's difficult to know how much time you'll have on your plate when you reach there. It's kind of annoying. I never both with the SE queue because it's just too long and it always prevents me from adding on an extra game due to the uncertainty of when I'll be needed.

On a side note, the ability to /in twice or even more often into either the SE or IC queue is annoying to people who want to reach the top of the queue. It's silly that Nacho, for instance, is going to reach the top of the IC queue four times before I reach it once. It's not difficult to /in again as soon as you make it into a game and it will keep the wait time much lower than it is now (at least for the IC queue).

[Zoidberg]

It's not so much clique-y as...

No, there's a large part of the community here that is definitely cliquey and elitist. You might not see it because you've been around for a long time, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely off-putting for newbies stepping out of RTR.

[quadz08]

It's not so much clique-y as...

No, there's a large part of the community here that is definitely cliquey and elitist. You might not see it because you've been around for a long time, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely off-putting for newbies stepping out of RTR.

I don't think it's any more 'clique-y' than it was when I first stepped off the newbie boat, and I honestly feel that it's probably less so.

[The Baltimore Sun]

It's not so much clique-y as...

No, there's a large part of the community here that is definitely cliquey and elitist. You might not see it because you've been around for a long time, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely off-putting for newbies stepping out of RTR.

eh. there are certain groups of people that enjoy playing with each other admittedly. I don't think it's particularly hard to break into by showing some general competency though.

it's definitely difficult stepping out of rtr, but there's no real way to fix this. at the end of the day people don't always act the same in newbies as in other games, or at the very least you're getting/dealing with people who are good at acting with newbies.


idk i kind of lost my train of thought. good newbies are always welcome. (I think there's a certain playstyle shift from game to game depending on the playerlist that can be as jarring as from r2r as another queue though)

[Faraday]

whoops

[zoraster]

the goal isn't to exhaust our supplies of SEs and ICs. A long queue there is great.

Not so great for the players, though. It's difficult to know when you're going to reach the top of the queue, so it's difficult to know how much time you'll have on your plate when you reach there. It's kind of annoying. I never both with the SE queue because it's just too long and it always prevents me from adding on an extra game due to the uncertainty of when I'll be needed.

On a side note, the ability to /in twice or even more often into either the SE or IC queue is annoying to people who want to reach the top of the queue. It's silly that Nacho, for instance, is going to reach the top of the IC queue four times before I reach it once. It's not difficult to /in again as soon as you make it into a game and it will keep the wait time much lower than it is now (at least for the IC queue).

Sure, but again, our purpose isn't to give good games to these players. We have literally 6 other queues designed to do that.

[StrangerCoug]

I wouldn't close the newbie queue in favor of having newbie games in the other queues instead. I imagine it being a bit chaotic for everyone, especially since a personal playing fault of mine that I've noticed is that I tend to conflate newbie mistakes with scum mistakes.

[Zachrulez]

On a side note, the ability to /in twice or even more often into either the SE or IC queue is annoying to people who want to reach the top of the queue. It's silly that Nacho, for instance, is going to reach the top of the IC queue four times before I reach it once. It's not difficult to /in again as soon as you make it into a game and it will keep the wait time much lower than it is now (at least for the IC queue).

I wouldn't mind seeing this addressed in some form actually.

[quadz08]

I'm too excited that "we have too many ICs" is an issue to decide if it's really a problem we want to "fix."