Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Mr. Flay]

Any thoughts on the announce-one-game-at-a-time-rather-than-bundling problem? That seems like it could be fixed instantly, to great benefit.Also if she'd be willing to sign off on the '3-week deadlines are NOT mandatory' problem.

She's kinda started doing this sometimes already.

Oh good - I've been gone for a week, just catching up.

[BBmolla]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

"i dont understand why cant there be a cop?"
"Cause I'm a doc, and roleblocker is lynched, ruling out setups 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, and 10. So it's one of the others."

Just seems like it'll cause needless explanations.

Just make a C9++ like thing where you randomly get power roles or some shit. Or even just 2of3. Seems way overly complex.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

I agree with this ^. Think that the possibility of all those different setups can be rather distracting and a confusing first experience, and think that it's really deviating from the purpose of newbie games, to get newbies in the "feel" of mafia and scumhunting.

Edit: I mean wouldn't newbies be more inclined then to go to something like an (easy) open setup where the setup is at least less complex and they can scumhunt better?

[borkjerfkin]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

I agree with this ^. Think that the possibility of all those different setups can be rather distracting and a confusing first experience, and think that it's really deviating from the purpose of newbie games, to get newbies in the "feel" of mafia and scumhunting.

Edit: I mean wouldn't newbies be more inclined then to go to something like an (easy) open setup where the setup is at least less complex and they can scumhunt better?

I'm really not sure I agree -- tons of setups we play on this site are closed normals and this is kind of a way to simulate that without having to review setups all the time. Setup speculation is a part of the game.

I still think Doc + Strongman is scumsided as shit.

[Remembrance]

I like the direction this is going. I just got out of my first game, where we had a cop and a JK. We broke the scum over our collective town knees with PR theory.

I agree with the doc +strongman problem.

It makes sense in that it breaks the "follow the cop" strategy by making sure that if a player really needs to die, than the scum can kill them. On the other hand, if they've gotten themselves into a position where a player REALLY needs to die and they lose if they don't kill him/her, then they're probably not doing a good job as scum in the first place.

Another problem with the 1-shot strong-man is that it can discredit a doc claim at the same time as 100% killing a threat to the scum team. It's simply too much of an advantage, IMO. However, If there's a town cop + JK, I think it's an excellent idea to put the 1-shot strong-man in there. After all, it's simply too easy for a JK to confirm themselves as JK compared to the other roles. It's a good idea to put some doubt in there.

[Leafsnail]

I seem to remember the stats suggested every 2of4 setup was reasonably balanced except doc/townie, which was 75% scum win. Basically that kind of setup should be avoided.

[callforjudgement]

I seem to remember they were all townsided except doc/townie. (Although my actual experience with cop/townie is that it's "balanced" in terms of win rate but very swingy, because it almost entirely depends on when the cop dies.)

[Human Destroyer]

Cop/JK and Doc/VT are scumsided, everything else is townsided, yeah. Cop/JK is only slightly scumsided though.

[Remembrance]

I can understand how doc/vt would be scum sided, but how is Cop/JK scum sided? You'd think it would be the opposite.

[Cheery Dog]

Cop/JK is only slightly scumsided though.

That's the most town sided setup. (if you get a scum lynched and both PRs are still alive, even if they've both claimed, it's almost impossible for scum to get a win there.)

[callforjudgement]

That's a big "if". Town are pretty much favoured if they get a scum lynch in the first two days even in a mountainous setup, IMO. It's just that they probably won't.

[Human Destroyer]

Cop/JK is only slightly scumsided though.

That's the most town sided setup. (if you get a scum lynched and both PRs are still alive, even if they've both claimed, it's almost impossible for scum to get a win there.)

I was reading it straight off Newbie Data (town win percentage is 42.86%)

Also, yeah, like CFJ said, it requires something that may not happen.

[Cheery Dog]

Someone never linked to the updated stats <_<
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4552784

okay 2nd most townsided according to those win stats now.

[mastin2]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

If it worked the way I said it did...

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

...Then this wouldn't be a problem.

There would be some unbalanced combinations (especially unbalanced in the scum direction), and simply removing those from the possible lineup would create an overall balanced environment while avoiding this "tons of setups" problem.

[Docteur Gudsight]

And what about

allowing

the mod to choose its setup among "1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}".

This would basically make it a Closed Normal with heavy restrictions. Yeah of course this means they can play outguess the mod, but there is an IC to explain the pitfalls of that.

[borkjerfkin]

I see no advantage to this approach and several disadvantages.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Advantages:
- There is outguess the mod talk in Newbies
- It gives experience to Closed Normals
- Good mods will make good setups

Disavantages:
- Bad mods are bad mods

[zoraster]

outguess the mod talk is an advantage in a newbie? and "good mods will make good setups" seems weird when you're only giving the mods a select few to choose from: why would they even have a bad option to choose from in the first place.

[quadz08]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

If it worked the way I said it did...

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

...Then this wouldn't be a problem.

There would be some unbalanced combinations (especially unbalanced in the scum direction), and simply removing those from the possible lineup would create an overall balanced environment while avoiding this "tons of setups" problem.

I'm not sure that really makes it simpler. I'm going to try to pare down the most recent list into a smaller number of setups.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

13 setups there, and I don't think there's anything terribly unbalanced. Alternatively, if we went with mastin's suggestion, there are (I believe) 24 possible setups. In addition, it runs into the issue of having 2 town PRs vs. 2 goons, which is pretty town-heavy, or things like Doc vs Strongman which are pretty scumsided. If you then take out specific setups, you'd say so something like this:

The newbie setup is:
1 or 2 of {Tracker, Doc, Cop} and 5 or 6 Vanilla Townies (for a total of 7 members of the Town) vs. 1 Goon and 1 of {Goon, Roleblocker, Rolecop, 1-shot Strongman}
There are some combinations of these roles that will not be chosen. These combinations are:
2 Town PRs vs 2 Goons
Doctor vs Strongman
Doctor vs Roleblocker

We feel that this is more complicated than "here is a list of possible setups," as well as being much, much simpler for singer to randomize, etc. (Throw list into random.org, play first setup that comes out.)


Re: posting games as they fill. The newbie queue should be getting updated at right around once every 2 days. Most of the time, that's just about 1 game per update (though there are exceptions, naturally). This is ~twice as often as it was being updated in the past, for comparison's sake.

[mastin2]

Alright.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

The newbie setup is:
1 or 2 of {Tracker, Doc, Cop} and 5 or 6 Vanilla Townies (for a total of 7 members of the Town) vs. 1 Goon and 1 of {Goon, Roleblocker, Rolecop, 1-shot Strongman}
There are some combinations of these roles that will not be chosen. These combinations are:
2 Town PRs vs 2 Goons
Doctor vs Strongman
Doctor vs Roleblocker

I need someone to call me crazy.

'Cause the latter version? That--to me--looks a

lot

simpler and easier to understand than the list version.

Am I crazy, or is quadz crazy?

[zoraster]

They aren't the same thing, if that's what you mean. I don't see, for example, a Tracker, Doc vs. Goon, Rolecop

edit: I see your qualifiers. I don't think that's going to be easier for newbies, no. But the way I'd organize it for them is to list each town power role and put all the setups that could occur if that town role is present, and then list each scum power role and list all the possibilities for it... cross referenced style.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think the second one is a lot simple and easier to understand than the list, if you already know what everything is and does and the implications of them.

Otherwise you'd probably have to work the list out yourself to try and understand it.

Edit: If you go with the list version, I think you should take off one of the cop setups, otherwise you've a slight bias towards that if done randomly

[Mr. Flay]

If you try to do the set-theory version, people are just going to work out (sometimes badly) and post the list version ANYWAY. You're saving precious little, unless you want a 'simple' way to notate it. But still, this isn't about the format of the description, but the setups contained therein. The List Mod is just going to send "This is your game's setup:" to the Game Mod anyway.,

[quadz08]

1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons1
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

I dropped one of the Cop+VT setups, made the scum role distributions a little more balanced, and organized the list a little bit more cleanly.

I'd like to hear more opinions on whether Mastin's method (which includes more potential setups than this does as I wrote it before; to narrow them down to the same number of options I have would require several more qualifiers) or the list method is simpler for newbies to understand.

[Cheery Dog]

It's probably not really going to make any difference. If it's just 2 setups with each set of town powers, the list is probably better.

Also I'm not sure if it can be fixed without creating more problems, but if there is a roleblocker in the setup as you're listed them, there's a cop. (i think you'd need a third variable to be able to stop that from happening, but that gets too complicated)