Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[borkjerfkin]

1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Rolecop, 1 1-shot Strongman

gives scum the setup from the getgo

[quadz08]

I don't think doc and jailer should ever be combined. (Doc/Jail is ridiculously town sided vs rolecop at least.)

Not according to the newbie data thread. It's less townsided than cop/JK, anyway, but we can probably afford to do away with both of them if we wanted to.

P-Edit: Thanks, bork. I'll drop that one or add another RC/Strongman combo somewhere.

[quadz08]

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

Changed it to Goon / Strongman; there is now no game with 2 scum PRs. (Not a good/bad thing, just a note.)

[borkjerfkin]

How does JK/RB resolve?

[Human Destroyer]

^Does it even matter?

[borkjerfkin]

Yes.

JK blocks RB
RB blocks JK
RB kills VT

what happens

[quadz08]

Ah, shit, I forgot about that whole awful debate. Lemme see what it looks like if I drop every setup with both JK and RB.

1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Jailkeeper, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Jailkeeper, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

I added a couple other setups with Roleblockers so there wasn't just the one.

[Human Destroyer]

If you wanted to put a Roleblocker in with a JK, the only really good option is to consider a JK a "protect" ability for the purposes of NAR. (Therefore allowing it to be roleblocked) IMO it also makes sense with the way a roleblocker is meant to work.

[borkjerfkin]

Doc vs RB is kinda narsty for town....otherwise I have no complaints.

p-edit: yeah, that's definitely an option, but it needs to be

standard and mods need to understand how this works.

Like there are mods out there, right now, using JK incorrectly in newbie games.

[quadz08]

That's why it's easier to just drop the JK/RB combo entirely. *shrug*

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

And that gives scum concrete info that there's no jailkeeper if they have a roleblocker. Fakeclaims ahoy!

I think either drop the jailkeeper entirely, drop the roleblocker entirely or don't drop the combo.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah you'll probably get to the point where policy lynch claimed JK's

[quadz08]

Hmmmmm... fair. The newbie data thread did also show a pretty strong town-sided swing to every setup with a JK in it...

Let's try something.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman

[mastin2]

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

[quadz08]

More or less, that's what it's become, yes.

[AngryPidgeon]

Am I the only one that strongly dislikes doctors in setups where they are unlikely to get off 2 protects, putting the game at Evens at BEST for the most part and conf-towning someone that was apparently town enough to get killed anyhow? The only thing is they can kind of prove their role. But I dont really have a suggestion for the solo doc setups.

[borkjerfkin]

Am I the only one that strongly dislikes doctors in setups where they are unlikely to get off 2 protects, putting the game at Evens at BEST for the most part and conf-towning someone that was apparently town enough to get killed anyhow? The only thing is they can kind of prove their role. But I dont really have a suggestion for the solo doc setups.

This seems really more an argument for >9 player newbie games.

[callforjudgement]

If you wanted to put a Roleblocker in with a JK, the only really good option is to consider a JK a "protect" ability for the purposes of NAR. (Therefore allowing it to be roleblocked) IMO it also makes sense with the way a roleblocker is meant to work.

[cfj-nar-rant]

NAR DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT

[/cfj-nar-rant]
Please. If you're going to be discussing action resolution, get your terminology straight. Use NAR, or don't use NAR, but be straight on what it means. (Click the link for the CFJ NAR Rant explanation.)

(Especially in newbie games, where correctly explaining the rules is more important than usual.)

[CF Riot]

1 town PR vs 2 goons is scum-sided? Like, how scum-sided? Cause pick 1 PR from a hat seems way simpler than this list quadz is putting together. This is probably personal opinion but I think strongman and rolecop are sucky roles.

What's the balance difference between
Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 goons
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

I feel like the rolecop in 3 makes it more scumsided than 1, and the potential for RB dying early makes for a worse game for scum in 2 than if tracker died early for town in 1.

I just really think 1 town PR vs goons is easy for noobs (players and mods) to understand, isn't terribly unbalanced for town, and still allows scum to gamble with fakeclaiming if they want without giving them a free fakeclaim or encouraging setup guessing, both of which I think are things noobs shouldn't be dealing with.

I just noticed, half the setups in this list are 1 town PR vs 1 scum PR. So my balance comment isn't even really a big deal. I think 1 town PR vs just goons is way nicer than giving scum things like rolecop. Ew, rolecop.

[Cheery Dog]

Shouldn't the roleblocker be an option for the single tracker/doctor options as well?

Do we need scum to know if they get to goons there is only one town PR? Scum fakeclaiming is going to be much more likely in those particular setups than others.

I think Cop/Doc v Strongman would also work.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

1 town PR vs 2 goons is scum-sided? Like, how scum-sided? Cause pick 1 PR from a hat seems way simpler than this list quadz is putting together. This is probably personal opinion but I think strongman and rolecop are sucky roles.

Only Cop and Jailkeeper are really strong enough to carry a town on its own.

[The Baltimore Sun]

I feel like the rolecop in 3 makes it more scumsided than 1, and the potential for RB dying early makes for a worse game for scum in 2 than if tracker died early for town in 1.

Rolecop isn't really that strong in such a small game. You'll learn most of the roles and be able to POE it down anyway.

[Mr. Flay]

There will be no way to narrow down precisely which setup you're in by any single flip, or for a scumteam to know precisely which setup they're in based on their roles.

Yay!

I like the overall progression here; no concrete suggestions on the currently list, though it can be tweaked at will.

Any thoughts on the announce-one-game-at-a-time-rather-than-bundling problem? That seems like it could be fixed instantly, to great benefit.Also if she'd be willing to sign off on the '3-week deadlines are NOT mandatory' problem.

[borkjerfkin]

I think it's worth trying. I like JKs; I include them in most setups I design, but they definitely cause more problems than they solve in newbie games so let's give this a whirl.

1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
might be too scumsided but whatevs.

[borkjerfkin]

Any thoughts on the announce-one-game-at-a-time-rather-than-bundling problem? That seems like it could be fixed instantly, to great benefit.Also if she'd be willing to sign off on the '3-week deadlines are NOT mandatory' problem.

She's kinda started doing this sometimes already.