Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[RedCoyote]

I'm here, guys. I haven't consulted with Vi, yet, so I'll keep this brief.

Hah, you ain't kidding.

Also I like how we're not even one page in and everyone is claiming that they have an ability and are evaluating the strength of it for all the world to see.

Vote: Helghast

[RedCoyote]

#1: Hi guys, I'm new here, so forgive me if I don't know the meta or joke-phase protocal, so...
#2: I'll skip right over joke-phase and get down to business. So did Implosion just suggest we give every anti-town role to the person we find scummiest? With the Vig factor in or not, this is a HUGE gamble and bound to be detrimental to the town.
#3: It's gonna take me a bit to wrap my head around all the new names here, so bare with me.

1.) Hi, WC. Welcome to MS!
2.) I don't much care for the plan either, so I'm with you here. In theory I like the idea of getting rid of abilities, but I don't like the idea of having to mass claim and completely tell the scum team/s our night action plans.
3.) No worries. It's a pretty big website, relatively speaking. Most of us in this game haven't played with each other. If you look around the playerlist, you'll see a few other names with join dates similar to yours.

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Due to this being the holiday season, I am postponing instating a deadline until after the beginning of January. Please note that many people may be V/LA over the next week.

Understood. This is probably for the best.

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Please do not reveal your role unless it's best for the town. Please don't get into the "omg funyay normal game IMJESTER ojk but I dont have a trackin ability I pinkyswear MAWFIA IS FUN" mode that I see people do in large games.

This. This. This. This. This.

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I have a treestump ability. For today, I'm voteless and can't be lynched. I'm worried that if this survives to lylo, it could screw everything up if a townie has it. Or if a mafia member has it for that matter. However, mafia having it for one day wouldn't really affect anything.

While I believe you most likely have this ability, I don't think this speaks to your alignment whatsoever.

I don't understand why you automatically believe that this can't help the town though? Why can't you just pass it to the player you find most townie? This is very odd, implosion. I figured your ability was more along the lines of a suicide-bomber like thing, where, statistically, you'd probably end up killing yourself and another townie if you used it.

It's not a great ability, but I don't think it's uniformly anti-town. I can understand your point of view though, I think we just have an honest political disagreement over the power.

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Figuring out how to create advantage within the setup is part of theme games, even normal games somewhat. Where's the spirit? You keep mentioning vague "bad things will happen, for sure, i just don't know what they are or why they will happen", and that's your only argument.

There's a fine line between successful planning and showing your hand.

Vote: implosion. No harm in confirming this.

Well, we'll lose a lynch.

@muh: Look on the back of the potato, it says "come play mafia with me". Make some real posts.

Lol.

I'm thinking maybe we ought to remove implosion's ability from the game. If you're town, please argue for or against that without appeals to fear, mkay?

I have no strong opinion either way. I don't think it's uniformly anti-town. It can be used beneficially. implosion and you are thinking too far ahead, imo. The cyclical mechanic and likely multiple kills will eventually catch up with most of the abilities, most likely. This just isn't a priority thing to worry about. As in most good mafia games, the only thing I'm concerned with right now is catching scum, not overanalyzing our powers.

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How the cycling abilities will be handled -

D2 all players who survived and passed on abilities N1 should claim that they passed an ability, only revealing what that ability was if it gave them a Pro-Town result (like a guilty on someone). They are not to claim who they passed it to.

D3 all players still alive who passed abilities N1 claim who they passed them to. Then said players confirm / deny that they received an ability Day 2 that they passed on N2. They also reveal any useful results.

Lather rinse repeat each Day cycle. And continue to lynch scum.

I can support this, if only because it will kind of stop us from going on too much about the whole "what to do" aspect and focus our efforts on the actual game. It's efficient.

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While this sounds good, what if X has other reasons to not pass the ability to Y?

I think he's implying more along the lines of a town-controlled "you pass it to Y or face the consequences".

[RedCoyote]

MoI's plan sounds more efficient and reasonable than "give all the bad abilities to a scummy player". As we just saw with implosion, it's kind of subjective whether these abilities are bad or not.

[RedCoyote]

Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

Huh? Maybe you have more information on Parama, but I don't. Parama's ability in no way confirms him as any alignment as far as I'm concerned, so I don't see how you can validly use this against quadz.

I'm also getting town vibes from Parama, even more than usual in this game.

Wait just a minute here, diddin.

Are you getting town vibes from Parama or do you have role information that leads you to believe that Parama is town? These are two very different concepts.

Unvote

;

vote: diddin

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@RedCoyote, can you give a situation in which my ability isn't anti-town? Even having someone voteless and unlynchable in general is bad. It narrows down the town's options and creates a player that won't be able to contribute as effectively.

If you have reason to believe someone is a townie but being unfairly targeted by potential scum or other townies, it would be good to protect them. If, for whatever reason, you investigate or are informed of a person who is innocent but you don't want to give the results out, that would be a good opportunity to pass them the tree stump. I don't know, uh, I'm just hypothesizing here. I'll concede that in a lylo situation it would most certainly be no good, but, on the same token, can you think of anyone here who will stand up and say, "Yeah, I'll take one for the team. Shoot me with the tree stump." Wouldn't that be playing against one's win condition?

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I had more to talk about, but a lot of stuff was answered in the interim. I do not support vigging anyone this early in the game, and I have a feeling diddin only claimed his ability because he was feeling pressured. In no way do I think his ability speaks in anyway to his alignment. WC doesn't strike me as particularly scummy, although I will admit that diddin has a valid point about the unvoting without revoting. I'm more concerned, however, with what I said above. I don't like what diddin had to say about Parama at all. At first he said he had reason to believe Parama was town because of his role, then he said that he was getting "town vibes" off of him, which strikes me as a completely different reasoning.

[RedCoyote]

Just getting back from out of town and everything, but I'll be ready to go tonight.

[RedCoyote]

- Just off the top of my brain, I'd think that you'd know more about the more, erm, ostentacious roles in the game just judging by the length of time you've spent on this site.

Why are you answering for implosion?

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And also, I'd like Diddin to live so he can use those daykills. But Diddin. The daykills give us NO info about your alignment.

This goes without saying, but he's going to have to pass it tonight anyways. I'd just as soon prefer him not to use it, although I guess having it around wouldn't be too bad as long as he gives it to me, you, theman, Parama, or someone else who I feel pretty good about at the moment. I don't intend to make a huge list, but you get the idea. Eh, I'm torn. I don't think Diddin is town, but I guess you're right about not wanting to lose the power either.

@RC: I'm mad @ u. Your playstyle seems more and more unreadable everytime I play with you.

That's okay because I'm town.

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what are some topics I can comment on?

Instead of asking pops what you should be doing, why don't you you read the game for yourself? You're not in any danger of being replaced or anything. This is a weird comment.

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RedCoyote's #84 is both scummy and lacking direction.

It was still a pretty early stage in the game, and I didn't really want to change my vote at that point. I can see where you're coming from with a lack of direction because I haven't been actively pushing a lynch before diddin, but is there anything specific you think I've been unclear on?

In his #23 in iso, "diddin is scummy" into him coaching diddin, and a cute comment about how RC is "hard to read"... not for me... I've seen RC as town in a game, and this isn't how he plays. On top of that, your speculation towards him seems forced.

Meta arguments are substantially weaker the fewer number of times you've played with the person. Given that the game we played together in (the

only

game we played together in) isn't even finished yet, I'd hardly consider it wise to act as through you're some sort of authority on me and my playstyle.

As far as your case against pops, I'm not prepared to join you. I've never liked the whole, "every post player X made is scummy" approach, and this game is no exception. You're trying too hard. Reasonable players don't think in those terms. pops may very well be scum, but you can't tell me every post he's made is scummy. Those are two very different things, and it really weakens your case.

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Of course, he probably never thought Muh was scummy. Just a crappy excuse to get someone killed.

I don't know why you refuse to back down from this. It was clear that the ability had to be passed. It was an ability that was going to kill someone sooner rather than later given the low amount of posts needed to trigger it and the high amount of players. While it may be true that you couldn't get a good scummy read on Muh that early in the game, you can't tell me you were sure he was town either.

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The best way I believe for implosion to prove he is a treestump is to hammer someone. We see the vote, the mod would ignore it, meaning no hammer. Quick, dirty, doesn't waste a lynch.

I'm down with this.

Time to turn up the heat I think. VOTE: VOTE: AE8363413

Are you going to vote like this the whole game? Is this just to be different? Because I don't really want to have to go check back everytime you vote.

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I don't like the pressure that diddin is putting on the town here. It sounds like he's itching to use his dayvig power, which makes me wonder why.

I've noticed this as well, and it makes me more nervous. I don't like having diddin's finger on the trigger.

Has anyone else noticed and/or wondered about the significance of this?

I didn't notice that. It may be something, but there's no sense speculating about it if you're town. I'm not sure why you would bring it up.

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Unvote

because pops (and a few others) are right that we really need to try and defend this ability the best we can. Town can generally only benefit from a day kill that is controlled by the community-at-large, regardless of how successful we are with it.

I'm going to go back to my

vote: Helghast

. I think this is a good lynch for today, and I don't think any other wagon (sans possibly EC) is really gaining any steam. He starts off by asking Parama to expand on his ability. Frankly, it reads more defensive than anything else to me. If it's not defensive then I read it as somewhat of a silly question anyways. Later he kind of drops the Parama situation altogether, which was a weird transition for a player who had, until that point, been focused 100% on Parama's ability. The rest of his posts have mostly been one liners that have given us nothing to go on. He hasn't voted, he hasn't "FoS'd" anyone, and he hasn't really given us any decent reads at all. He's just drifting by unaccounted for. Bottom line, when I read Helghast's posts I don't see them as a townie who is genuinely trying to scumhunt.

[RedCoyote]

I'd like to see a list of people you find scummy.

diddin would probably top the list at the moment, followed closely by Helghast. If I had to pick a couple more, EC and Longing both seem a little off. I'm not really prepared to make a case on either of these guys, but I could join either of these wagons.

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Just going with the flavour, but I'll vote "normal" if its going to bug people that much.

Well, I don't want this to sound rolefishing-ish, but I was kind of curious if you had to vote using IDs or if you were just doing it for fun. If you are just doing it for fun, do you mind putting the name next to the ID as a personal favor to me?

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I get the feeling you're one of those fellows that extensively uses the preview button with every alignment, making every alignment hard to read.

I do that more to keep my spelling and grammar in check (usually unsuccessfully), but, to respond to your previous comment without being cute, I'm just analyzing the situation as best I can. I hope you'll find, as the game progresses, that I end up seeming more town to you than not (or, better still, more town than unreadable).

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Unreadability is okay when you're town? I'll have to remember that next time I'm scum .

Well, I don't know. I honestly don't try to be unreadable. I try to act as unemotional as possible when playing, regardless of alignment. pops and I have played together a few times though, and he's brought this issue up before.

In either case, I wouldn't necessarily take a page from my book, implosion. I don't have a very impressive record.

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Did you read why I voted for Narsis?
He bandwagon-voted EC without a single mention of EC in any of his posts. Hardly gut feeling. In fact, he did pretty much the same as Saint has done to me but actually placed his vote.

I just looked back at this, and AntB is right. diddin kind of inflated his attack against AntB for no real reason. This is something anyone could easily go back and check on.

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Red, are you going to stand by a statement that Helghast is as anti-town as it gets? There have been numerous other players with many more posts, many chances to say anti-town things that don't rub you right. Is the 60 second iso really as evil as it gets for you?

A couple of things. First, I would not classify Helghast as "anti-town as it gets". That's needlessly exaggerating my case. I don't think he's acting particularly townie, but I'm not about to inflate this to some sort of obvious choice. Second, and partially because of what I just said, I'm willing to admit he's on the lurker side of the spectrum. I don't think that makes any of my points any less valid though. Just because he has less activity doesn't mean that he shouldn't have casted a vote. It certainly doesn't make his approach to Parama any better in my eyes either. It should also be noted that there are a good 5 or 6 players with less posts than Helghast here, but I'm not trying to hide the fact that Helghast has less activity. I think if he had double the activity in the same vein of what he's already shown us, I'd still be on his case.

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Hello RC, could you give me your top three as well? Also do you feel as strongly about didden scum as you did earlier?

Hey, Lateralus. I'm glad I get to play with you.

Top three would probably be diddin, Helghast, and either EC or you, unfortunately, at third. Yes, I do feel as strongly about diddin scum. Nothing he's really said has changed my perspective of him so far. If he takes care to use his power wisely, then I think that may buy him some creditability, but we'll see what else happens in the mean time.

[RedCoyote]

I feel kind of sorry for AntB, but a rule's a rule. That was clearly communication.

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If the virus and daykill are whipedout then...idk it seems like the game could be unbalanced without a mafia kill and he's said some pretty questionable things about it (the kill).

Can you elaborate on this, please? To me, this sounds like you have information about scumkills that I didn't get in my role PM...

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I dont constantly vote, I dont see the need for it and I keep all the FOS in my head, I only vote until I see hard evidence against someone.

I'm not asking you to "constantly vote". You're blowing my allegation out of proportion. It would be nice if other people could see some of the "FOSs in your head" so that we can start drawing connections between people. I don't want to come across as lecturing here, but forcing other players to attack/defend different people is a good scumhunting tool.

Also, I have a personal question for you. Did you delete your account and remake it or something? Maybe I am thinking of someone else, but I could've sworn I played with you before. It would've been before last month though I'm thinking.

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Ok, I honestly would vote for me for the same reasons I was being voted by Lateralus. I haven't done much scum-hunting, but this is mostly due to the bad timing.

Ugh. At first I thought we probably shouldn't use any Vig power on account of us not having any flips to work off of, but, come to think of it, we do have two flips now.

diddin

, if I was to vote, I'd actually prefer a vig shot on EC to WC. I can see how WC is looking scummy to some of y'all, but this post reads genuine to me. Maybe I'm a sucker for the newbie card in this case, but this comment, as despondent as it is, leaves me wanting more. What do you think?

[RedCoyote]

The strange thing about this game is that activity isn't really

that

bad. URoE, LynchMePls, Narsis, and Snake have yet to really participate in the discussion, but everyone else has made an acceptable number of posts varying from light to heavy activity. It's strange that we do not really see the votes to back up this 17 pages we've had so far. I don't think a wagon has even broke 5 yet, and if you look at vote counts, no name has gotten more than 4 votes. Everyone has been talking about WC, but where are the votes? I understand why diddin and Parama's wagons collapsed, but WC, EC, Helghast, and Narsis (or anyone else who is supposedly deserved) should have more votes.

Even if you give passes to URoE, LynchMePls, and Snake (URoE hasn't and probably won't confirm, the other two have said they'll be V/LA for a couple more days yet), we've still got ten players here who are making posts and not throwing down a vote. What gives? WC, Helghast, quadz, chkflip, Magna, q21, theman, ckd, Power... I'm looking at y'all. By the way, of this group, Helghast is the only one who hasn't ever cast a vote (and he still hasn't even after I called him out for it earlier), but, if you throw out RVS, I don't think Magna, chkflip, and WC have made an "actual" vote yet either.

[RedCoyote]

Also, I don't see how Helgast is scummy

[/quote]

You mean you don't see it as in you don't agree with the case brought against him, or you don't see it as in the attacks aren't valid whatsoever?

[RedCoyote]

No one is asking you to "vote-hop". I don't know what this fear is of voting, chkflip. You gave that same line earlier this week that you were still considering who to vote for. I'm not telling you to change it every couple of days or anything. Is there some reason you feel uncomfortable keeping your vote on a wagon as opposed to not using it at all?

[RedCoyote]

Uh, did you just read my post 410? I'm calling all of you out. I see that you did cast a non-RVS vote, but it was so long ago that I had forgotten about it. Still, I do retract the last point in the post against you though.

Wagons only get stuck in ruts when people don't -- guess what -- utilize their votes. I hardly think it's valid to throw out some blanket criticism on every wagon in this game and say that you can't support them because they're inevitably going to be stuck in a rut. Excuse me for being frank, but if you don't help push a wagon, then no shit it's not going to move.

If it's just that you're really so concerned about looking like a sheep, I can understand that. But, then again, there's quite a bit of info here, there are at least four solid, potential names being tossed around, and there's still a void for someone to take point on this lynch. I'm trying to advocate we go for Helghast, Parama and diddin have come down hard against WC, and IAI has just made the case for an EC lynch. If you don't like any of these options, then start your own. No one is expecting you to lead or to follow, but I'm telling you that you (and others who are not throwing down votes) are starting to grind my gears a bit. There's nothing wrong with expanding on current threads already out there either.

I strongly disagree that this game is very stagnant. Like I said earlier, I don't think the activity has really been too bad considering we have four duds at the moment. I guarantee you if more townies used their votes that it would cause more discussion to take place, so I can't even give you that point really.

[RedCoyote]

Pro: Votes are happening.
Con: Everyone thinks someone different is scum.

Also, chkflip, thanks for post 417. I'll stop picking on you now.

Thanks for replacing, SC.

I don't have much time to read right now. I just got on to take care of my modding commitments. I'll check in later.

[RedCoyote]

While you wait for me, though, could I have everybody's top three picks for scum and why?

diddin, Helghast, and a tie between Lateralus/EC.

I address it twice in my iso, but none of these players (although Lateralus has picked up Longing some) have really given me sincere, scumhunting vibes. diddin has just been all over the place as though he's nervous and constantly needs other people's approval.

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3. Whoever Diddin would pass it to would provide Mafia Pairing elimination

Oh, wow. I hadn't thought of this angle. This is, like, better than roleflips if we keep track of abilities.

Pops mainly has been pushing for the absolute direction of the Dayvig with lynching as the alternative. I don’t like that. Diddin being directed by ‘Town’ removes his culpability for the act if he vigs a bad target.

I get what you're saying here, but after diddin claimed, don't you think this throws all individual responsibility out the window? I mean, to an extent, diddin is going to be responsible regardless of what he says or does, but when you claim before shooting, you're effectively trying to rid yourself of total responsibility. I don't blame pops for trying to take advantage of the situation as town or scum. If a day kill is up for grabs, then you're going to try and direct it regardless of your alignment.

Pops also gets plenty of scum credit for early lurker hunting (The Longing) and pushing two weak, newer players as prime Vig targets.

This is hypocritical, Magna. You say this and then in the next breath say Narsis or EC should be shot. Longing/Lateralus has more posts than EC and Narsis combined as of WC's post count.

As a cherry on the top, I don't particularly like your chkflip argument either. Helghast, among others, is worse than chkflip in the "concealing his scumhunting" department.

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Yeah I need to post inthread to activate my kill.

Why would you not disclose this at the outset?

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You are tunneling on me because, as I've said multiple times, I AM NOT ABLE TO POST REGULARLY AND AM NOT ABLE TO PUT IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME NECESSARY TO SCUMHUNT/FEEL GOOD ABOUT VOTING ANYONE.

Okay, you've mentioned this several times now. I'm starting to think you may be trying to earn sympathy here rather than explain your situation honestly. diddin isn't coming down on you particularly hard other than saying he prefers to shoot you. You should probably talk about more than just diddin, especially if you think you may be shot today.

...and I see you did this in post 447, so you're back in my good graces.

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In all reality though, Pop's original slip could also be a scum tell and should probably be worth keeping an eye on. Just during my initial read, ckd's jumped out at me more...

I haven't really commented on this because I don't see it as much in either instance. Maybe I'm being short-sighted, but I don't lend much credence to people speaking too quickly. I misread crap all the time, and only sometimes am I lucky enough to catch it before I run with it. That said, it could be a good alternative to use our shot on today.

[RedCoyote]

SC, EC, RC, NC, WC, and popsofctown.

That's a lot of C's, lol.

[RedCoyote]

Why are we still directing and potential doctor ability? Ugh, we seriously need to start thinning the ranks here. I thought diddin was going to take a shot. Let me process all of this.

[RedCoyote]

Doc protection might be the best thing that could happen, but

I don't want anything directed

in case of them having a role that can stalk or intercept

I feel like a

doctor-protected-semi-confirmed-town MoI

would be very beneficial to the town on D2

(emphasis added)

I knew something struck me as odd when I was skimming yesterday. Saint, what's up with these two positions? They seem very contraditory to me. Your whole discussion on Doctors period is icky feeling in general. You talk about it a lot. A whole lot.

I don't care to lynch diddin on d2 or d3 if we find out on d3 that he has passed his ability incorrectly, or in the d2 scenario if he has acted against the town's wishes.

It shouldn't be an absolute either way. Again, this whole train of thought of yours feels awkward and semi-forced. Like you want to be on record as having defended diddin as early as possible should anyone want to push him. I don't like this.

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Fencesitting is a scum-tell. When fence-sitting you are establishing a position that can be used to argue that you were correct on an issue at a later date, regardless of which way the issue fell.

I don't remember if I addressed this to you or not, but I want to make it known that, one, I agree with you that fencesitting is a scumtell, and two, I dispute your label of me as fencesitting with regard to WC. I had no issue with diddin's attack that WC shouldn't have unvoted without revoting, but, aside from that, I didn't think it really applied to WC very well. WC actually may not have known better. Vi has called me on this before, and I didn't really get it the first time I was accused either. I get it now, which is why I think the attack is valid (yet it wouldn't apply to WC necessarily because of the history I just told you about). I know this sounds like doubletalk, but I'm really not intentionally trying to do that.

If it's any consolation, I've, slowly but surely, begun to lose any town-inklings I once had with WC and have now moved from the category of, "I'll speak on WC's behalf", to, "I could really care less if he was the vig shot".

1. EC is not a lurker and I don’t see how you attempt to classify him as such.
2. Regardless of how many posts Lateralus has made since replacing in when Pops made her lurker-vote Longing had between 2 and 4 posts. You can’t say give Pops credit for pushing on an active player when the activity came after the push. The fact that Pops has agree that she was lurker hunting makes this particular part of the argument by you confusing to me.
3. You are mis-repping my position. I stated that all four of my suspects would be good Vig targets (as I think all are scummy). I stated the Narsis was the best of the four due to low activity. If you disagree that Vigging scummy players with low activity is better than Vigging scummy players who post a lot (and therefore are more likely to slip / respond when questioned) we have a difference of opinion.
4. If it was hypocritical I’d be voting for Narsis. I’m not voting for the ‘lurker’. I’m voting for Pops, the active scum.

1. In Mafia, like most things in life, you always have to ask, "what have you done for me/us lately?" EC was indeed fairly active as the game opened up, but he has since began to lurk. So, yeah, I dispute that Longing is more of a lurker than EC at this point.
2. I'm not necessarily saying Longing is an active player. I just don't think EC and especially not Narsis would qualify as active either.
3. This doesn't apply. You came at pops for his attacking lurkers, among other things. You are attacking lurkers. Period.
4. Fair enough, but, again, one of the reasons you're voting pops is because of his focus on Longing. Unless you concede that point, it doesn't matter that you're not voting Narsis in my eyes.

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I still doesn't see how Helghast is scummy.

This is the second time you come to bat for Helghast. I explained my vote pretty clearly (as have others), so, I think the burden is on you to come up with a better wagon or defend Helghast against what I've had to say (similar to what Magna just did).

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This is one of the things that bugs me about the general site meta here; after so much stuff happens, neutral reads are seemingly not allowed.

If you don't have at least an idea about a player that has made a decent number of posts, then, yeah, that's not too good. I agree with implosion here. Now if you want to qualify your opinion, that's a whole 'nother thing, and it's quite acceptable (I do it all the time).

In response to the sudden interest in vigging EC: wtf? why?

Why not? His position on Parama was extremely peculiuar. I mean, I think it's deserved enough. That doesn't mean that others shouldn't be acceptable, but EC is a good choice nevertheless.

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Vig a noob or hang diddin.

Why is it that, despite your excessive amount of rhetoric, I feel like you are totally removed from this game? Like, I don't feel like you are a part of the town in the sense that I feel like you are on some island somewhere with a megaphone. Do you get what I'm saying?

Anyways, this statement is absolutely ridiculous and I dare you to try and defend it. "Vig a noob"? I mean, really? Do you stand by this?

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Also, does anyone think the Day Vig ability is something that should stay in the game?

Yes, absolutely. Although having it outted puts a kind of unsatisfactory spin on the whole thing. Vigilantes keep scum scared. They don't want to be shot out of the blue. It causes them to be more careful about what they say and do, and, theoretically, should make it easier to catch them.

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I really like Lateralus' post 531 and generaly like him much better than I did Longing.

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I must pint out that I take exception to this, I was V/LA and had announced such in thread, quite clearly.

I didn't realize that. I don't go back to check on V/LA's usually. For what it's worth, I like these two posts of yours with one caveat... Why did you not talk about Helghast at all? You addressed almost everything besides that.

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Yay or Nay about the vig timing guys?

It needs to be doen ASAP. I don't get the hold up.

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I still cannot see why Helghast is so scummy.

Alright, I'm done with you at the moment. This is absolutely ridiculous. This is too half-assed, too whiney, and too defensive to be town at this point. This is the third time in a row Power has made the same lame attempt and shouting down the Helghast wagon without anything of substance. Other players have given actualy reasons for not supporting Helghast as a lynch/shot candidate (Magna, NC), but Power hasn't.

Vig: Power

, and, at the rate he's going, he can expect and actual vote from me soon enough.

---

Darla is a good lynch candidate for today based on that last post.

Seems people have forgotten that my vig shot isn't what the game revolves around. We have a LYNCH VOTE too and we should use that just as much.

Wow, diddin... it's the first townie thing you've said all game.

I agree 100%. As much as I'd like to defend my fellow Texan (thanks for replacing, btw, Darla), I don't much care for the hesitation in actual voting. Especially after she told us that she had a whole WordPad full of analysis that got lost. I don't dispute that she did, but, if she did, she should have grounds to throw a vote down.

---

tl;dr

= Power, Darla, and Saint are worse. Lateralus, diddin (yeah, really), and q21 are better. diddin needs to shoot.

[RedCoyote]

Quit stalling, diddin.

q21, sorry. I admit I skimmed; I'm a bad townie. I'm also a hypocrite in the sense that I build walls but get upset when I have to read other people's walls. To compensate, I don't usually expect people to read mine (except for what I've addressed to them).

[RedCoyote]

1. So having a suspicion based on EC’s early game play, when he was active, immediately dissolves into being labelled lurker hunting? I just want to be clear.
2. You are missing the point. At the point where Pops went after Longing he was clearly lurking and Pops attacked him for just that. Did I attack EC for lurking? Nope. I attacked him for his terri-bad Parama attack. Did I attack Narsis for lurking? No, again for making a horrible bandwagon vote with no reasoning.
3. Wrong. I’d attacked Pops, Chkflip, EC and Narsis (and now Powerrox). Not a single portion of my attack had anything to do with their inactivity.
4. We disagree. Noted.

This is becoming such a technical argument now when we both essentially agree that EC and Narsis are scummy. I mean, the whole reason I came down on Helghast was removed from the lurking aspect as well. I really do not wish to split hairs on the differences between attacking a player who happens to be lurking and attacking a lurker who happens to be scummy. I just didn't think your pops attack was very forthcoming.

---

If I could get an explanation why HG is so scummy for once then I'd never had to do this in the first place.

No, you don't care. That's what bugs me most. You've made the same cheap comment four times that you "don't get" the Helghast wagon. You don't bother to figure it out and you don't bother to ask questions. The only thing you want to do is let it be known that you think Helghast is town (since you haven't really elaborated I can only assume you know this because of your alignment).

Vote: Powerrox93

I feel at least as good about this as I did Helghast, possibly even better. I'm not a huge NC fan, but I will join him on this wagon for sure.

---

I also think that Diddin should examined a bit closer because essentially he limited his Vig targets to only myself and Helghast, he refused to kill EC.

I very much agree with you here, WC. Don't let me forget it either. This is exactly what I'm thinking.

---

Because shooting before everyone can voice their opinion on a daykill we were going to decide to be done democratically is a great idea!

I respect this, but give me a little more. Was there someone specifically you were waiting for? Darla? EC? Someone else? This could just be a throwaway comment if you don't have something real to back it up with. I'll honestly give you more credit if you can point to something though.

Quadz: Why are you lynching VI's when you have SCUMREADS? Why is lynching an anti-town player that you think *COULD* be scum when you could lynch someone you're pretty sure is scum?

This is a good point, quadz. Is diddin right? Do you have scummier reads than Power that you aren't acting on (aside from diddin)? It looks like you think Parama is worse than Power.

---

I hate to be the guy that says this, but we've had

three

townie deaths today..... maybe a no lynch wouldn't be such a bad idea?

Sorry, but that's a horrible idea. I'm all for an alternative to Power, but a lynch is infinitely more important than daykills. All of the deaths have been effectively decided by one person (even with the vote on the Vig shot). We need a wagon that we can use in the late game to help us decide on future suspects. You probably know that better than I do, theman, so I don't really think I like this comment.


---

is that a claim?

I claim that I'm town-aligned, yeah. That has nothing to do with my ability or lack thereof.

[RedCoyote]

Wow. Uh. Hmmm.

Is it too late to

unvote

and

vote: themanhimself

?

diddin, you don't have anymore shots left, do you?

[RedCoyote]

Ummm... can you show me where diddin says anything about role information about Parama. Because, I never saw anything like that. And I'm worried you may just be making up an excuse to vote diddin.

Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

The latter part leads one to believe that Parama's ability is more likely to be a townie ability than a scum one. The problem is, this shouldn't, under normal circumstances, weigh in on your read at all. I don't have any knowledge that any of the "powerful PRs" are more likely to be town/scum. Do you?

---

A little behind guys, but I honestly don't care who eats this lynch. With theman I feel his comment was extremely out of place, and, really, whether he choose to defend it (as he has) or backpedal from it, I'd probably still see it as scummy. For a player that has been around as long as he has, it just strikes me as completely out of place. As to Power, his vote of theman once again backs up my observation that everything Power does is concocted, artificial, and really out of touch with the game. I think we should force those who aren't choosing between these two wagons to opine on today's lynch within the context of Power vs theman. Bunnylover and nhammen in particular are important pieces right now. My vote, frankly, may be influenced by how these other votes end up going.

[RedCoyote]

This is such scummy posting. Feeling equally comfortable with two available lynches is legitimately possible for a townie, but I expect that position more from scum. Reminds me of my rather crappy SK play.

I await your glorious defense of themanhimself as the townie to end all townies. No? I'm exaggerating? Okay, maybe a little, but you get my point. Don't start tooting this horn if you're not going to stand up for it. I started theman wagon yesterday. I was one of the first to really call out Power for his nonsense yesterday as well (although I'll concede that there were others that were pushing for him stronger than I was). Unless you're prepared to man up and say that one (or both) of these positions is fake, then don't give me this mousy, theoretical mumbo jumbo about what I would and wouldn't do as a townie.

My vote, frankly, may be influenced by how these other votes end up going."
The phrasing here makes this not at all sound like "I'll help whichever needs a hammer at deadline", which would be much more ok.

As a townie, this influence should never happen, unless you think Bunnylover and nhammen significantly better at mafia than you are. There's no reason for it except to be in a popular place to be be, which is a scummy desire.

They're REASONING can influence you, and perhaps that's what made this seem ok to let slip. But you said votes, you didn't say you'd like to hear what they had to say.

An all of that aside, even if a gameplan of proxying your vote to the most popular wagon is proper pro town play, there's no reason to warn us that "my vote may be influenced by how these other votes end up going". We'll find out if it causes a change when we find out if it causes a change. Reading that you might sheep on nhammen's and Bunnylovers decisions doesn't make me have to replan how I play the game. Your vote is where it is, and it's possible it can change. That's always the case.

You're reading into this what I was worried might have been read into this statement from the moment I hit submit. nhammen and Bunny needed to make their positions known especially, above all other players at that point. When I said their votes would influence mine, I meant it, but not in the way you're assuming. In no way am I claiming nhammen and Bunny are sure townies here. Their votes wouldn't necessarily have influenced mine in the sense that I was going to vote

with

them, but that understanding which argument/wagon spoke to them more as replacements would help me assess which lynch showed more promise. Unfortunately, this decision was made before I really got the chance to continue on the issue.

---

A lot has happened, and I'm looking forward to reading what all has occurred since the day has started. I really wanted to make this post though because I don't think pops was being very fair with me in that post. I think he made it off the cuff and I hope this clarifies it a bit.

[RedCoyote]

Like implosion, I'll be V/LA for most of Friday and Saturday too.

[RedCoyote]

PROTIP

: If you are wondering where a player is, go back and check their last post in the thread and/or the last time they visited the forums.

I have a lot to catchup on, but I don't mind. I gather we're doing a massclaim? I had no abilities yesterday and I have none today.

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: Bunch of Text

Hrm.... so I'm guessing there's an SK? Either that or a vig but if there's a vig the ability probably cycles so I don't know that it's much use trying to get anything from that.

Why are you guessing there's an SK? What about another ability? What about multiple scumteams? Why even speculate on this at all unless you have knowledge that I don't have.

I sent the day-vig ability to myself and the person who got my redirect power knows who they are probably figured out why I sent it to them. I'm all for using my power democratically

Ehhh... I don't know if I like this or not. I'd rather have seen who diddin would've sent this to, personally, but if I had this ability I probably would've done the same thing. I wouldn't be "all for using my power democratically" though. You realize this is the same thing that got diddin into a lot of crap with a bunch of people, right?

---

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Although I agree, I think theman kind of forced our hand... again. I mean, if I had this ability, I'd use it myself. That being said, if someone else has it and wants to let me influence it, then I'm going to take that opportunity.

By voting on it, we get the worst of both worlds. The shot is now controlled at least partially by scum input, AND we can't discern the alignment of the dayvig based on the decision, because they can disown the decision as not there own. The only possible upside is that you force interactions from everyone by requiring a vig-vote, BUT WE ALREADY GET THIS FROM REGULAR VOTES!

I disagree. More scum will be giving their input on the vig shot. This is a good thing.

Multiple people with the "DBE needs to pick it up" not voting anyone.

FOS

all of them.

I agree with this though. Remind me about this later if you decide to use it against someone. I don't want to forget about it.

---

It's pretty much a "busdriver" ability that I can only imagine mafia would have.

This is the second time you've claimed that abilities influence roles. No one thinks that except you. If you know what abilities are more likely to be scum, it's probably because you've been talking it over with your comrades in the scum QT. Also, your ability is more harmful to the town than not.

---

nhammen, can you refrain from posting quotes that are like 10 weeks old? (exaggeration!)

This is kind of awkward. Maybe I'm speaking for myself, but it helps jog my memory when others address older posts.

---

proof that I am owning scum

Is WC one of them?

---

I am a VT. When I read the front pm I could have sworn it did not have the second sentence.

I read over all this stuff about your power, and it seems to me this is what stands out the most. I don't get why you'd even get this whole discussion started in the first place. Ugh. So basically you misread the PM you got. Wonderful.

---

You really seem to jump on the biggest wagon each time don't you? Anything original you would like to add to the table?

To be fair, pops asked her directly to respond to this issue.

---

This is probably going to go through, because this is a lynch that it's easy for scum to join. "LAL vote:village idiot" doesn't leave a lot of room for divining someone's sincerity.

Who is the worst offender? Who has been phoning this game in and not making any independent moves, do you think? I'll tell you who I'll point the finger at: Darla.

---

I find it likely that Bunny is a _I (either S or V, not sure). I'm leaning towards S, especially considering the quickhammer.

What in the heck are you talking about?

---

Also the Bus Driver role has got to be destroyed if this is true.

Then why not vote diddin and be done with it?

---

2) pass it between two scummy players.

Hmmm, couldn't this work, pops?

---

Lateralus and ckd are also people of interest - the former for going after TMH (whose wagon I didn't get)

Hopefully Fur does. His talk yesterday about forgoing our lynch and his talk today about taking the Vig ability only to use it democratically rings null to you two?

---

Wow, DBE sent me the virus, in spite of never having indicated suspicion of me, iirc

Lynch this scum.

I sent the virus to someone who I thought was scummy, but if town, wouldn't send it right back to the best of my guessing. And he's holding an antitown role so there's that.

I'd like to hear Darla's reasoning for this.

We've got a couple of good spots for the virus, but right now I'm really hankering for a ckd shot. We can get rid of the treestump and use the kill successfully. theman, I

vigvote: ckd

. I'm not overwhelmed by his content over this entire game. I couldn't point to any area and say, "Oh, yeah, I remember ckd had a good point here". Lately his points are fluff like, "man, I wish I had a vote" and "wow, we haven't hit scum yet! Sucks, don't it?"

On another note, I'm not sure why WC is being left off of the Virus guest list. It seems sort of strange that no one has offered him up.

Clearly there is only one person that deserves today's lynch though. He's slipped up twice on the same issue of supposedly knowing scum abilities and put off using the Vig yesterday until he could confer with his scum colleagues. I offered him the chance to clarify why exactly he waited so long to use it after he told us it was to get more opinions, but he chose to ignore me instead.

Vote: diddin

, and I'd also be happy to see him shot today.

[RedCoyote]

It seems like the Virus is taking longer than the previous one. Does anyone who received the Virus have an idea why this is? I thought that passing it made no difference to it killing someone?

[RedCoyote]

I see. Bleh, I don't want to spam if I don't know if the PM was read or not.

[RedCoyote]

I don't understand why we can't go backwards, frankly. IAI and q21 have brought up sparing diddin (although they both think he's scummy, yes?) in order to lynch theman tomorrow (thereby "testing" whether or not they are on the same team). Why can we not lynch diddin in order to test that today? I mean, it works both ways right? There's going to be a lot of opportunities to crosscheck ability exchanges throughout the game, but there's not going to be a lot of opportunities to lynch scum at the rate we're losing townies.

[RedCoyote]

Well, let's say that we decide to wait and lynch theman. Okay. Worst case scenario.

Darla gets stuck with the Virus and flips town.
theman shoots WC and flips town.
We lynch Saint and he flips town.
Then two more town deaths at night. That's five more townies dead.

I'm not saying this will all happen if we don't go after diddin now, but I am saying we shouldn't spare diddin if we think he's scum just because we want to get a town confirmation from lynching theman tomorrow. We're already on a bad footing. That said, if a majority of the town thinks diddin is honestly not a good lynch, then that's a completely different story. I'll build a case against him with pleasure.

[RedCoyote]

I can almost hear sotty saying "appeal to fear" here.

I'll let theory arguments and outguessing the Mod go on for a little while when it's of no real consequence to the game, but when you want to test these little schemes over the course of two days (we couldn't lynch diddin yesterday because he had a Vig power, now we can't lynch him because lynching someone else could "confirm" him (which is totally misleading, btw)) and put the town in peril, I'm going to put my foot down.

---

RedCoyote you have HARDCORE tunnel vision on me. You have said NOTHING about whether you think tmh is scum or not today, and that plays a big part of my alignment. It's like you're ignoring him to get me lynched. In fact non-mention is a pretty strong buddy tell.

Uh, yeah, I have. Go back and look at my big post today. I'd love to lynch theman. Yesterday I brought theman's wagon to the brink before Power was ultimately hammered. Without wasting the Vig ability, there's little we can do. You think you can get off scot-free because you're assuming that theman couldn't have stole your power if he was on your team, right? If that's true, it should go both ways, I think, regardless of who initiated the pilfering. It's all speculative anyways.

You've done good to sell everyone on the idea that theman's alignment will confirm you, but the town doesn't have the luxury to sit back and speculate on Day 3 ability swapping theories. We need to lynch scum. Period. I think there's a strong possibility that both you and theman are scum, regardless of ability swapping. I'm not about to start confirming people because we don't have any scumflips yet.

So here you are pushing this self-preservation line about how if everyone just sits on their hands long enough you will look better. No, I don't buy it. I implore others not to either. If that makes me have "HARDCORE tunnel vision", then so be it.

---

When we have an easily traceable ability that forces very telling decisions like a Day-Vig, the bus-driver is going to keep screwing up our tracking. With the bus-driver, the Day-Vig is much less accountable for their hit than if the bus-driver did not exist.

So, WC, how do we rid ourselves of the Bus Driver ability? We lynch whoever has it. By the grace of God, diddin ended up with this ability. We can bury it with him today. Works perfectly, don't you think?

TMH's BD ability seems like it would override alignment restrictions.

That's exactly what I think. It shouldn't be assumed otherwise. If we spent more time scumhunting and less time worrying about repercussions of lynching the "wrong" person, then we'd probably be heading in the right direction.

---

And since we pretty much know that they can't both be scum (although they could be lying about the ability), I'm more inclined towards a tmh lynch tomorrow. Also, why did you list Saint for the lynch?

No, you have to justify it. I feel like this technical mumbo jumbo is cutting off our nose to spite our face. There are few compelling lynches other than theman and diddin. Moreover, I feel like it's at best a flimsy theory that theman couldn't have Bus Drove diddin if they were the same alignment. It's certainly not strong enough to forgo lynching someone scummy.

And Saint was just random.

[RedCoyote]

Well, personally, I think it's silly of her to hold onto it regardless of alignment. I don't buy into her woe is me argument, but I wouldn't put her on my top five list of scumpicks either. Still, you have to be your number one defender, and she's also been taking a lot of "easy" positions. I'd encourage her to continue passing it to her number 1 or 2 scumpick if she were town.

[RedCoyote]

How could tmh and diddin possibly both be mafia?

If they're not on the same team. If it's allowed to

use

a power on a fellow scum.

Think about it. If your teammate had the vig ability, wouldn't you want to take it from him? That's two townkills in a row. Additionally,

Any Anti-Town Faction existing within this game may not pass

a standard ability

to any of their partners, if any partners exist within the game.

Nonstandard abilities may exist in the game.

(emphasis added)

This answers IAI's concern as well. As far as I know, a Bus Driver isn't a standard role in Mafia. I mean, I don't think it's generally allowed in normal setups. I could be wrong, but that's my impression anyway. This is all assuming they're partners though.

There are too many "what ifs" in your theory to make absolute calls. But even if we did go by your theory, we should still be able to lynch/shoot diddin and get the same results as waiting. If diddin flips scum, that means that theman (as scum) couldn't have passed his power to diddin according to what you're saying, right implosion?

So now my question is, why is it that you and IAI are in such a huff to stand up for diddin today? He's slipped, on multiple occasions, that "certain abilities" are "more likely to be scum/town owned". He contradicted himself in his reaction to Parama's initial Virus movement. He left out important details about how the Vig power works after claiming it. He deliberately put off shooting yesterday for no logical reason. When we pressed him, he said he wanted to get more reactions, but when I asked him for specifics, he refused to answer me.

I don't know what happened. Yesterday (D1) I remember many people saying that they were itching for a diddin lynch today. Why is diddin all of a sudden a big townie figure outside of the ability swapping situation?

[RedCoyote]

Fun fact: diddin will flip town if we lynch him.

[RedCoyote]

Maybe I'll just be a brat in this game. I'm sick of talking to the same people. People that won't even acknowledge that I have a point. It clearly goes both ways. I want theman dead too, guys. I don't know why y'all can't get that through your collective heads. He has the Vig power, okay? I don't want to lose that. diddin has the Bus Driver, okay? I

want

to lose that.

If our long term goal, as a town, is to have one partially confirmed townie on D4 in a 25-player game, then we're aiming the bar a little low. Get that fact through your head.

[RedCoyote]

She actually is on, pops. XD

[RedCoyote]

Well, she isn't on the list but she just made a post.

[RedCoyote]

I'm playing this stupid game on addictinggames.com called Airport Tycoon.

It's actually kind of fun except that to get a lot of the upgrades you need something called AG Bucks, which I think is actual currency. Like you actually have to give money to the website to get upgrades on a flash game.

[RedCoyote]

Can you name all of Santa's reindeer without looking it up?

[RedCoyote]

You missed one. Yeah, I did play the McDonalds one once I think.

[RedCoyote]

Well, at least now I can actually back up what I've been saying. theman needs to go.

Unvote

I don't get a Parama kill at all. With all his talk about using his kill democratically, this is really awkward. pops is right, if theman is town at this point, then I'd just as soon as wave the white flag.

Frankly, I propose we lynch theman now. True, we're losing our daykill, but he basically just claimed scum with that shot. Before I just had reason to believe he was scum given his support of no lynching yesterday and his stealing the Vig ability, but now I know it. I don't know if the town should scoff at this without considering it. A scum flip will give us better information going into tomorrow. Additionally, if we lynch a scum today, and whoever has the other night shot knocks off another scum on the same team, we'll be in much better standing.

Vote: themanhimself

Thoughts?

[RedCoyote]

Consider me seconding quadz.

[RedCoyote]

Uh, yeah. Especially if he flips "Scum Group 1".

[RedCoyote]

How does any flip make a successive lynch more accurate? Through wagon analysis and rereading. I don't see where you're going with this.

[RedCoyote]

Of course I'm not 100%, no. I'm pretty darn confident though. Confident enough that I'd risk losing the daykill over it.

If he isn't scum, I don't think we're in a very good spot.

[RedCoyote]

Exactly why I would argue we should assume he's scum and wait for his ability to change hands, then lynch him tomorrow, after diddin passes him that infernal antitown ability.

I see your point, I just don't know if we can exactly afford the luxury of a daykill any longer. I'll probably have to concede you have a better technical argument here. It's more logical that we should try our best to hold onto the daykill as best we can... I just feel like we almost

need

this flip, I guess.

---

BunnyLover
Wrath Child
Pops.

If anyone but one of these three players gets lynched, I am breaking my own rule and replacing out. I did not want Helghast shot, I voted for TMH over Powerox, I said DBE was being used as the easy target today, and said I had a town read on Parama, who is also a very solid endgame player. Give me some credit and let's please target just one of these three players D2.

I get the frustration over no one listening to you. That doesn't really give you grounds to replace out though, IAI. You're just going to have to be more persuasive. For all I know, Bunny, WC, and pops may all be mislynches (although I doubt it).

---

We've been basically policy lynching all game and it hasn't gotten us anywhere, and I'm very confident that that trend will continue.

It's not a policy lynch though. None of the kills have been political so far, with the exception of DBE (although, to be fair, she brought that on herself. She had ample opportunity to pass the bomb, but she took the coward's way out).

All due respect Vi, but you need to read this game before commenting on it anymore. Don't straddle both ends. Either read the game and comment or just stick to helping Fur out. theman was advocating a no lynch yesterday, and, what's more, he defended this position after others pointed out to him how scummy it sounded. Honestly, backpedaling from that position wouldn't have been much better, but defending somehow seems worse given how long he's been playing the game. When this day started, he also slipped that he knew how the scum makeup was. These aren't political arguments, he's made scummy posts.

---

scum group 1?....

As in multiple scum groups.

---

*RedCoyote - The second-biggest active lurker in the game. There was one time when he said something that made me consider that he might be looking from a pro-Town motivation, but most of his posts are just walls that don't go anywhere, don't do anything, and uphold the status quo.

Oh, please. You know as much as anyone that I do not have the opportunity to log onto MS numerous times over the course of the day. Very often my posts happen late at night after normal people in the western world has went to sleep. If I had a nickel for everytime someone tried to push this lame activity argument on me, I'd be retired on a beach in the Cayman Islands. I like how my posts don't go anywhere yet I very nearly had theman lynched yesterday, I began the wagon to get Helghast shot yesterday, and I was one of the only people to stand in the way of implosion and diddin running roughshod over the town today. I mean, compared with Lateralus, SC, LynchMePls, and ckd,

I'm

the lurker? You're really missing the bigger picture here. Unfortunately I can't claim that my reads have really helped the town progress so far, but I've undoubtedly had a lot of influence here. I'd argue that I've been one of the top three most influential players in this game.

---

Nice OMGUS Bunnylover. Noted.

[...]

Once again, nice OMGUS.

Wow, we get it. Jeez.

I like how you also point out you've only had "one vote over the entire game, a RVS vote" as though it's something to be proud of. I'm going to be checking on this, because if this is true you are really slipping under the radar.

RC and Furc can back me up by telling you how I was at the end game of Zach's mountainous game, and though I didn't reread all 50 pages of that game, I did spend time rereading keep points of that game.

Yes, this is true.

---

Ok. We should lynch TMH today because if he is scum, he could just pass the dayvig ability to the player his team is going to nightkill, sending it to "the void."

I didn't even think about this. There's also no way of knowing where they'll pass it either.

Sigh.

I don't think we're going to get to keep the daykill even if we wanted to.

---

I am not fully convinced TMH is scum, but he surely isn't the town-slot that I believed he was earlier on in the game.

If ever I've seen doubletalk...

---

How do you know this is a multiball?

Ever heard of the word "if" before, SC?

---

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

My goodness, implosion. If we see eye-to-eye on this there may be hope for the town yet.

---

I don't think I'm doing anyone any harm or disrespect here, in contrast with Precision Mafia where I was a royal ****.

*brofist*

[RedCoyote]

Proposing a No Lynch was a silly idea all around and based on fuzzy logic, but I'm not seeing where it was scummy so much as logically dubious and an easy lightning rod. I've already read that far, not that you would be interested in noticing

If you had have read that far then you probably wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss it as a political argument. Now if you want to write it off on account of him being effectively a newbie, that's a different story. I hadn't researched it that deeply, and since the man himself (pun intended) didn't bother to correct me, I just kind of assumed the seniority.

Regardless, when he was called out on it, he still defended his position. That's what really kept the ball rolling in my mind.

What, are we not supposed to comment about having more kills than expected (HINT: like I did a post or two ago and a few people thought it was a great idea)? Or are we always supposed to suspect two Mafias (I didn't until you said something)? What are you trying to push here?

Why needlessly speculate at all? An SK? Multiple teams? An ability nightkill? It could be a number of things. You don't need to remind us there was a second kill, and you certainly don't need to start putting your two cents in when your guess has no real weight (unless, of course, you do have inside information). Frankly, I don't like that "either this or that" way he phrased his comment either. So there's that.

tmh's logic for taking the daykill from diddin makes sense as either alignment. tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well).

I like how you bring this up, despite the fact that I came to the same conclusion, and leave out the whole "democratic kill" angle. theman wants us to believe he stole the daykill ability in order to democratically use it. I don't know if he ever brought this aspect up again today, and we know he certainly didn't use it in his Parama kill. Bottom line, that's what made the whole charade scummy, not the kneejerk stealing of it (which I admitted I probably would've considered myself had I had his ability), but that he comes out and tells everyone he wants to wash himself of the responsibility of killing someone himself. That got diddin into trouble (although everyone has since forgave him, apparently), so why shouldn't theman be held accountable?

COULD it have been scum-motivated? Yes of course, but Parama was probably very low on the list of targets scum would have conveniently wanted out of the way. COULD it be possible that this is a plot between diddin-scum and tmh-scum so that they got the daykill twice?

I'm backing away from a diddin lynch for now. I don't want it at the moment. Certainly not today. Now how would you come to the conclusion Parama was or wasn't low on the scum target list? I saw him as pretty solidly town, and I know you did too. Had he been forced to claimed for whatever reason, we now know he had the Doctor ability. I realize this was after the fact, but that doesn't mean the scum didn't know that Parama had the Doctor ability. So, no, I don't buy your defense of theman here either.

But I do appreciate you reading.

---

These were never responded to either.

Yes, I did. Post 809.

We already know he is scum, now we want to find connections. We should be using cycling to give us more confirmed town, and using reactions to find scum.

Tell that to Vi. Tell that to pops. If we can get theman's flip, we can start drawing concrete connections better than we're doing now. I'm telling you, if we rely too heavily on night ability swapping, we're seriously putting all our eggs in one basket. Very rarily do you want to leave someone who you think is scum alive.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

These are exactly the kind of strategies I had hoped to avoid. We're seriously banking on the idea that there is one large scum group, despite the fact we had two night kills, that diddin is confirmed town, that everyone will pass their abilities in a correct way, and that scum have no abilities that could screw up this plan. You're willing to go down that path rather than trust your instinct and lynch scum based on pure merit?

---

q21 v.s. Saint is probably town v.s. town.

---

I don't think Vi is criticizing your post count, but rather how much you're really saying in each of your posts.

Do you concur?

---

A couple of questions. Is the Virus ability for sure coming back tomorrow? Why are people assuming this? Just because it did today?

Additionally, I think I'd make a good candidate to get the Bus Driver ability tomorrow, so I'll throw my hat in the ring.

[RedCoyote]

Well, if we're making a list. I mean, could you possibly think of someone more townie than me?

[RedCoyote]

Indeed, why needlessly speculate, RedCoyote? You and quadz were the ones who mentioned "Scum Group 1". Since you just made a dichotomy between guesses having no real weight and havng inside information, should I take that to mean you're needlessly Spreading the Hysteria with that comment, or should I take that to mean you have inside information and know the truth of it?

Oh, no. Don't even go there. There's a definitive line between me and theman in this instance. I didn't start shooting my mouth off about how there was probably an SK or another Vig shot. Someone, implosion, directly asked me for a possible scenario where diddin and theman would both be scum. I said, bluntly, that if there were from multiple factions. Period. pops asked me, directly, why theman's flip would help us. I said, again bluntly, that the role name may give us a clue. Period.

No one asked theman why there were two kills. He just threw it out there.

I don't want to get into a theory discussion about what the most likely explanation is here, because I don't think it's necessary. What I do think is that the way theman framed that statement looked wholly ungenuine, which has been characteristic of his play thus far. I got the exact same vibe from the no lynch comment, Vi. The exact same vibe. Now tell me, what do you think of that?

Well, for one, he didn't shoot democratically. And he did say he wanted to shoot in like 48 hours.

He offered to. That's the point. He let the cat out of the box. No one knew he had the Vig power until he offered that information to us. As if that weren't bad enough, you know, the cherry on top is that he then tells us he's selling his Vig shot to the whims of the public. If it was bad to do this on the first day, it was worse to do this on the second day when there were four less townies to chime in.

Until DBE claimed Doctor for Parama, sure he was Town, but he was doing the next best thing to actively hindering the Town. Why kill that kind of player as scum?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, but I just really disagree with you on this point as well.

Parama may have been a prick this game, but he was laying out clear suspects and giving us his impression of the game. He wasn't a leader in this game, no, but a game won't run with 12 leaders trying to pull the game in 12 different directions. If you are a townie who, one, is looked upon by the majority of the game as a townie, two, is using your vote rationally, and three, is giving clear reads on the game at at least somewhat regular intervals, then you are a serious threat to scum. Period. Few players had such a standing in this game. Parama was one of them.

It was a scummy shot, but I don't think I have to sell you on that. It was a

really

scummy shot. Do you agree?

You can't draw concrete connections from Town-flips. But I have to question why you're not even considering that.

*shrug*

I feel confident he's scum. Sorry. I mean, what do you want me to say? I'm not going to just cross my fingers and hope he's lynched. I have to work for it. That's what you'd expect me to do, right?

Still, I understand and agree with your point about not drawing connections via a townflip. I only counter by say that, after the first scumflip, all townflips become more informative. Would you agree?

---

>RC gets flak for pushing me hard.
>RC announces he doesn't want my lynch today.

hmmmmmm...

What's Parama? Chopped liver?

I mean, seriously, do you not think the Parama shot was significant? I'm not scum just because I find you scummy.

---

Of course, if there's a nightvig they could just shoot ckd and be done with it. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of sending the treestump to TMH, because if we do loose the dayvig we'd be forced to let him live until day 4, of course the problem with that is that by dealing with the stump separate from TMH we could be leaving it too late to actually do anything about it.

The obvious solution, q, is to rid ourselves of theman right now. Listen, even those that don't support lynching him admit that we'll probably lose the dayvig ability. I have seen nothing but whispers that imply that the Virus or the dayvig abilities are coming back, so I have no real reason to believe they will again.

---

Saint, I no longer have a town read on your slot. Your defense of TMH is completely absurd. His taking of the power role was scummy, his killing a player 13.5 hours prior to saying he would without asking for a claim is even scummier. TMH will die D3. And your defense of him is really throwing me for a loop.

I'm not prepared to go this far. I don't really think Saint's position on theman is indicative of Saint's alignment, but I will say that, prior to this exchange, I wasn't really satisfied with some of Fur's "role directing" stuff earlier in the game. Because of that, I have a leaning scum read on Saint still.

---

I'm sure nobody actually looked at these numbers when deciding who to shoot or whether tmh was scummy, but there you have it.

Even if I take your word for it (I do), why do you need to say this? Why didn't theman say when he shot that he suspected a lot of Parama heat, or, heck, I'll even take it after the fact. Why not point this out? I mean, even you have to admit that you doing this and not the man himself (I guess this happens more often than I thought, heh) is a little suspect, right?

Also I voted for ckd early in the day, for one, and for two, I call bs on some of these people getting "multiple" votes. I stand by my stance that Parama was still generally thought of as town, despite how sketchy it looks in this specific light. If pressed, I don't think people would've wanted Parama as one of their main choices, but here I am speaking for everyone else.

---

Honestly? I don't have a clue who to vote FOR. I haven't the foggiest idea of who's scum, except for thinking TMH and diddin are scummy, and as described above, voting for them isn't a good idea.

Then vote for theman!

I don't understand this stigma. Consider the vigkill lost. Even if it's not, there are too many things that can go wrong. Do not let this opportunity pass, quadz.

[RedCoyote]

theman has exhibitted the sort of anti-town play that i just dont expect to flip scum. It'd probably be hard to convince anyone else of this.

Well, Saint has certainly been trying. What about diddin, then?

---

So then how do we deal with the treestump? If we lynch TMH now we get rid of the only way that we know exists to get rid of it. Yes, chances are that it'll get taken out/voided but there's also a chance that it won't and I think we need to keep TMH alive for today based on that chance to deal with the treestump tomorrow.

I don't think that's feasible. We're putting too much to chance. ckd can flip it to someone like a Bunny or LynchMePls who right now I'm only so-so on (haven't really felt big town/scum vibes from either of them) and take them out. Of course if theman were to flip town, diddin would be the obvious choice.

---

In most games with more than one kill at Night, the idea of two scumgroups never comes up at all. So why is this game a special occasion? And for bonus points, RedCoyote, why is themanhimself scummy for mentioning a different possibility?

The size of the game is a factor you're discounting. The lack of any scumflip so far.

Look, but, be honest. You're trying to paint me as the bad guy here. I don't think you're being very fair here. I was asked. Point blank.

I was asked

how could diddin and theman both be scum given the ability passing mechanic. I responded.

I was asked

how theman's flip could give us a better clue about the setup. So come off this idea that I'm trying to treat this game special or corrupt people into my line of thinking. I'm throwing possibilities out there based on what little we've been shown so far.

As I said, theman is scummy for doing this because he's stating the obvious, uncalled for, truth that two deaths likely means another killing party. The he jumps to an SK or vigshot without warrant or provocation is scummy. If you don't agree with that, then you don't.

Further, hammering in that diddin and themanhimself CAN BOTH BE SCUM UNDER THIS NOT-NECESSARILY-APPLICABLE CIRCUMSTANCE seems like a good way to stop Town reads from coming out, which is really rather harmful for the Town, so etc.

That's a two way street though. Don't kill the messenger. Absolutely I acknowledge the benefits of having a scumflip from diddin or theman on the living party. I'm just saying it's foolish to run around saying that he's confirmed town. Are you prepared to do that?

Unless you can tell me why it looks wholly ungenuine, the only response to the first sentence here is... so what? And my response to the rest is - why not vote quadz for the same logic?

Suggesting a no lynch looks just hunky-dory to you then? We may just be on different planets this game.

The fact that he brought this comment up out of the blue feels like he's trying to beat his chest a little bit and show others how analytical he can be. It doesn't feel like a townie who is considering the situation, it feels like scum trying to looking townie.

As far as quadz goes, the only thing I really don't like about him is his wagon-teasing. I have a slight scum read on him, but this is a completely different situation altogether.

*You can't hide that you have the dayvig if you're planning to use it. diddin did say that you had to post inthread to use it. If you're planning to use it, there's no reason not to say you have it.

I don't know what the ability looks like, but what's to prevent someone from saying "I have the daykill" in one post, then in the next post a second later, "

Daykill: Saint

"?

it must be hideously anti-Town for us to lynch on Day 2 because there are seven fewer Townies directing the lynch.

That's apples to oranges, and we had this argument before you started posting. A "democratic daykill" is not the same as a lynch, and I shouldn't have to explain why. For one thing, you're counting people who vote to shoot four different players. For another, not everyone is doing it. For another, a player still has the trigger, not the Mod. I could go on if you need me to.

And it showed when people - all but one of whom I have a Town read on - wanted Parama out.

Well, look, theman didn't follow any set procedure. It was sloppy. At least give me that much. I may have underestimated how much people disliked Parama in retrospect, because, you're right, I didn't do a count of those vigkill votes. Still, it's not appropriate to make this big show of stealing the daykill and announcing you're going to do it democratically and then fire off without any serious discussion in the middle of the smoke clearing from Darla's death. That looks bad. It looks worse that theman doesn't want to own up to it and doesn't want to defend his shot, regardless of the informal, sloppy voting thing. It was handled much differently during the first day.

You know, come to think of it, you're not counting actual votes here, are you? Because you didn't count my vigvote or my actual vote, that's for sure. I may have to go back and do this myself after all. I'm starting to dispute how you arrived at Parama leading the pack when he never, as far as I know, has broken five actual votes since possibly the beginning of the game.

You're welcome to push for the lynches of people you think are scum, but guaranteeing that someone will flip scum reeks of CAPS LAWCK or inside information. And one of the few pro-Town things I can say about your play in this game is that you're not CAPS LAWKE.

Of course I don't guarantee he's scum, but it's a smidge better than guaranteeing that both RC and quadz are scum (unless you have inside information that is).

---

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

1) Yes
2) Yes

---

So the entire Day 1 Nero doesn't look twice at me. Then I ask a question regarding the Darla Lynch and all of a sudden I'm Obvscum and I'm scumbuddies with my #1 Scumspect.

NC, I'd like to hear your response to this as well.

---

Who are we lynching?

The short and sweet version of it is themanhimself is the best lynch today. He shot our Doctor, stole the Vig ability so that he could secure the idea of using it "democratically", he proposed a no lynch yesterday, and has generally been saying things to try and make himself look townie without actually doing anything to back it up.

---

OK, my original question

Slip is the wrong word in that case, but it's a false argument nonetheless. Once you can forgive as stupid or in genuine error, twice you can't, nhammen.

Where do I state that there is one large scumgroup? Where do I state that diddin is confirmed town? In fact, I explicitly state that he may be scum! Are you just refusing to read?

I'm reading them, but if you don't account for this circumstances then your plan is weak because the key components have no reason to follow through on them. How can you expect diddin to steal the dayvig from theman and then give it to someone else if you think "he may be scum"?

Ummm... you are almost (but not quite) the worst candidate for that.

I was being tongue-in-cheek with pops a bit, but I honestly think there is no better candidate to have that ability right now.

Well, multiple people have been working on a plan that DOES in fact keep the dayvig around. So, have you been reading?

Look, it's a luxury that I'm not sure we can afford. You do realize we have to use the Virus to shoot, right? Are you prepared to kill two more people tomorrow if we lynch a townie today?

[RedCoyote]

If you vote theman with me I could care less if you read my wall, Fur.

[RedCoyote]

So tell me, if we do lynch TMH today and CKD does flip the stump to someone else (bunny/LMP as you suggest) the question remains: How do we "take it out" as you so succinctly put it?

Take it out of the equation. We'd pass it to scummy players and force them to pass it where we say or face the consequences. I actually kind of want to see who ckd passes it to because I don't think very highly of him (he's ranked only behind theman and diddin in my eyes).

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and while we're on the subject, that's reason number 10 why theman's shot was ridiculous. ckd could've been shot, eliminating this whole issue to begin with. So there's that.

I went back to check on the vigvote count from the start of D2, and, although Vi's off, I confirm that Parama did have the most people saying his name. I mean, I could screw with the numbers by guessing at Lateralus and pops' intentions, but I don't think that's fair.

God, I can't get over how absolutely ridiculous that shot was. Just reading over the entire day has really struck that nerve again, you know, in case I didn't hammer that point home enough. I guess I'm just mostly pissed that I didn't get a word in edgewise while whoever "voted" for Parama because they were annoyed with him just lost us the Doctor ability. pops, you wanted to know why theman shot with 6/17 people chiming in?

Because he's scum (as are you probably for still trying to sell the idea that he's town).

Why does everyone love ckd as town so much? Can we talk about that? Can I do like IAI and get people to state why it is they didn't advocate such an obvious shot. I mean, I brought this up way back at the start of the day. There were only two people who wanted ckd shot that I could tell. Me and implosion.

Everyone who picked ckd to be shot (all townies)

• RC
  
• implosion

Everyone who picked Parama (

the entire scumteam

almost the entire scumteam, and the group we are definitely lynching from today, no questions asked)

• Bunny
  
• theman
  
• WC
  
• ckd
  
• quadz
  
• SC

quadz and SC were the weird ones in that group, btw. quadz, as far as I know, wasn't interested in Parama being shot until Darla flipped. quadz, is this true? SC, you threw Parama in at the end of your post, but the people you wanted shot before Parama (theman and Saint) were fairly unreasonable. Saint may have been shot, but I think you knew it was really between Parama, Bunny, and WC. Did you not?

[RedCoyote]

I'm tired of fighting for this. I'm getting my name dragged in the mud because I want to lynch obvious scum here. You want my opinion? You've really got your head in the clouds if you think you can plan the entire rest of the game and control the abilities. Newsflash, the scum have more information than we do. We may know some of the abilities individually, but they know about more of them and who has them. So, whatever, quadz is a reasonable choice.

I think the scum must've known Parama had the Doctor ability, because that shot was completely uncalled for and no one here wants to defend it after the fact except for Vi. That speaks volumes to me. It tells me that scum majorly influenced that shot and are trying to skirt the issue entirely. Let's check out why I think quadz/SC were the weirdest ones on that Parama vigvote wagon.

List of people who should die: Nero Cain, Bunnylover, TMH, diddin, probably Saint

He doesn't mention Parama at all in that post (although, to be fair, he was never very fond of Parama during D2). But check out what happened after Darla was killed and theman asked everyone who they wanted him to shoot:

TMH: shoot diddin, Parama, Nero, or Saint. Those are my votes.

Coincidence or deliberate?

That was quadz, but I'd also like to bring up SC.

I agree with this. Bunnylover and DBE are high on my scumlist, I feel Diddin is town, and I already said Saint's a suboptimal bomb target. WC I need a double-check on, but if memory serves me correctly there's a good case on him too. TMH is a good person to get the bomb as well.

Bunny, Darla, Saint, WC, and theman are all potentially good kills according to SC in this post. He repeats himself in post 1261, although he neglects to touch on Saint and WC and opts instead to weakly attack me. Here's the smoking gun though:

I'm in favor of vigging themanhimself, Saint, and to some extent Parama. TMH and Saint I've already explained why I think of scummy; Parama has made it clear he refuses to contribute.

Now Darla is dead at this point, but what happened to Bunny? What happened to WC from earlier? What about me? Where did Parama come from all of a sudden? Yes, SC was feeling under the weather, but that still doesn't explain why Parama came from out of nowhere.

Bottom line, neither of these players I think are being honest about Parama. It feels completely awkward when I look over their post histories in how they went from one group of people they wanted to be shot to a different one. That doesn't mean that the rest of the players who wanted Parama dead were squeaky clean, but just that these two looked really weird about it.

That all said, theman is still the best lynch for today. If theman isn't scum, I'd be extremely surprised. Additionally, if he isn't scum, then all the analysis I just did about the Parama shot loses a lot of its creditability. I feel like a town-aligned role would've done better than to shoot Parama as quickly as he did without investigating as to why Parama was taking so much heat (this despite the fact that very few people suggested that he be Virus'd or lynched earlier in the day). Think about it. Parama never broke 3 votes in any of the vote counts in a 25-player game. I find it very hard to believe that there was some silent majority that secretly felt like Parama was the most likely to be scum the entire day. If I'm wrong, call me out. Stand up and defend theman's shot.

I'm a reasonable guy; I'll support the quadz wagon with this evidence. I just implore you to take one more good, hard look at the rationale behind lynching theman today.

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

vote: quadz

[RedCoyote]

curiouskarmadog (1) -

StrangerCoug

Mod

, is this an error or is this vote valid?

To the best of my knowledge that is correct. Format of VoteCount is Votee (Number of Votes) - Voter(s) .

[RedCoyote]

ckd, do you or do you not have the Tree Stump ability?

[RedCoyote]

I really enjoyed this game, as I noted in the Dead QT. As much help as IAI, pops, and MoI were in securing a victory, DGB, that vixen, really cannot be overlooked here. I'd love to see this game unfold in an alternate universe where Lateralus, that bum, never flaked. I feel like the scumteam had Lateralus in our collective pocket.

gg all!