Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[Saint]

Hey, I didn't know I could quote blue people. I can have fun with that later.

[DrippingGoofball]

How many votes does quad have?

[Saint]

How many votes does quad have?

Eight

Three if I'm not mistaken.

[q21]

q21 - The chance of you lynching me Today without pulling your entire scum team with you is nil. You may as well not bother.

I realise my chance of lynching you is small and since I have no scum team to help I have to push for the lynch I most believe in at this time. Yours. With a week still to deadline I feel perfectly comfortable pushing the lynch I'd most like to see happen, later I may be forced to reconsider, but for now... MOAR SAINT VOTES PLEASE!


DGB - We're lynching Saint, the rest of the town just doesn't realise it yet.

[Saint]

q21 - Refresh me again on why you want me lynched. The OTH take-home version of it was "I'm out to get you".

Ball of the Goof - Why the hesitation?

[WrathChild]

I don't like the pressure you two are putting on Goof. Let Goof catch up, which will take about two days and make their own decision.

[The Eruci]

:: VoteCount 2x8 ::

LynchMePls (0) -

RedCoyote (1) -

implosion

themanhimself (3) -

RedCoyote, WrathChild, StrangerCoug

DrippingGoofball (0) -

WrathChild (4) -

nhammen, LynchMePls, diddin, themanhimself

curiouskarmadog (0) -

quadz08 (3) -

Saint, Nero Cain, popsofctown

Nero Cain (0) -

q21 (0) -

diddin (0) -

popsofctown (0) -

Bunnylover (1) -

I Am Innocent

I Am Innocent (1) -

Bunnylover

StrangerCoug (0) -

Implosion (0) -

nhammen (0) -

Saint (1) -

q21

Not Voting (3) -

curiouskarmadog, DrippingGoofball, quadz08

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline for Day Two is Tuesday February 1st, 2011 5:00pm EST.

[DrippingGoofball]

All these wagons are disappointingly puny.

[q21]

q21 - Refresh me again on why you want me lynched. The OTH take-home version of it was "I'm out to get you".

You have misrepped me and then hypocritically called me scummy based on that misrepresentation. Your comment about my posting was also a misrepresentation. Its not so much that you're out to get me, but that you did it scummily.
Also, SaintFurc has been scummy which you want to dismiss as Furc being Furc. I'm more keep on the explanation of Furc being scum.
Lastly, I find your defence of TMH disingenuous.

[Saint]

I don't like the pressure you two are putting on Goof. Let Goof catch up, which will take about two days and make their own decision.

I wouldn't be nearly as strict if it weren't for how confident I am that she replaced into a scum slot. I know we're talking about Goofball here, but what's the point in asking "who are we lynching" and hesitating when an answer is given?

1) You have misrepped me and then hypocritically called me scummy based on that misrepresentation.
2) Your comment about my posting was also a misrepresentation. Its not so much that you're out to get me, but that you did it scummily.
3) Also, SaintFurc has been scummy which you want to dismiss as Furc being Furc. I'm more keep on the explanation of Furc being scum.
4) Lastly, I find your defence of TMH disingenuous.

1) I've already acknowledged that my initial attack was in error. You must have a low opinion of me if you think that I deliberately fail fact checks regardless of alignment. As far as hypocrisy goes, not only has more than one person mentioned that it's not a tell but the point is so silly that it doesn't warrant the measure you've given it.
2) No, actually, I maintain that my opinion of your play is quite correct and that you're giving yourself credit for way too much.
3) Go ahead and explain why you think Furcolow is scummy for me; because Furcolow is Easy Target Central.
4) I asked you to explain that one a while ago, and got a blanket "I don't like it" (#27). IAI laughs at your pathetic attempt at rebuttal.

So 1) and 3) indicate that you're single-mindedly trying to make things look as bad as possible for me/us/appropriatehydrapronoun while 4) shows that you're more interested in the

idea

of me being scummy for defending TMH rather than looking at why.

I was a little concerned I was on the wrong track for a moment there >.>

[DrippingGoofball]

q21 and Saint are town. I'll skip their posts unless it's pointed out that they've made cases against other players.

[Bunnylover]

TMH, did you run out of vig shots for today?

[StrangerCoug]

UNVOTE: themanhimself
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

THIS IS A STICKUP.

Your second and third scummiest reads accompanied with explanations or your life.

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

Yes.

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

Yes.

[WrathChild]

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

Yes, but I'd rather he die today because those are a lot of IFs.

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

Yes

[implosion]

UNVOTE: themanhimself
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

*cough* treestump *cough*

Yes to both of IAI's questions btw.

[StrangerCoug]

*cough* Thanks for killing the pressure vote. *cough*

[popsofctown]

[/color="blue"] Easy Target

[/color]

Have I mentioned I hate this terminology?

[Saint]

Easy Target

Have I mentioned I hate this terminology?

And I hate the term Village Idiot and try not to use it. You know what I'm talking about.

[popsofctown]

I'm not telling you to use the v word. I'm telling you not to use "easy target". I find it nonsensical.

[diddin]

unvote Vote: quadz08

dat bigger wagon

Also, tmh lied about the redirector ability. It's standard. Mod-confirmed, an ability is only non-standard if the ability PM explicitly says so.

[nhammen]

It would be voided, as if it were sent to someone who died by the original redirector, I guess.

And I was right. Mafia can use the redirection ability to pass abilities between themselves.

Cool beans. Thanks for asking the mod those questions. themanhimself has REPEATEDLY refused to do so. OK, so if we tell diddin to steal the dayvig for himself, either the ability only goes to the void and someone that multiple people have been suspicious of is killed by scum, OR we keep the dayvig. However, since we have decided to use the dayvig to kill the treestump tomorrow (ckd IS giving it to tmh, or is scum with tmh) it seems that diddin should not steal the dayvig for himself, but should select someone else to give the dayvig to.

These were never responded to either.

Yes, I did. Post 809.

OK, my original question was this:

So now my question is, why is it that you and IAI are in such a huff to stand up for diddin today? He's slipped, on multiple occasions, that "certain abilities" are "more likely to be scum/town owned".

How is this a slip? The mod has stated that this is not true, so this is more like being stupid that being scum.

Try again.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

These are exactly the kind of strategies I had hoped to avoid. We're seriously banking on the idea that there is one large scum group, despite the fact we had two night kills, that diddin is confirmed town, that everyone will pass their abilities in a correct way, and that scum have no abilities that could screw up this plan. You're willing to go down that path rather than trust your instinct and lynch scum based on pure merit?

Where do I state that there is one large scumgroup? Where do I state that diddin is confirmed town? In fact, I explicitly state that he may be scum! Are you just refusing to read? These strategies give us VERY USEFUL alignment information, regardless of the number of scumteams. And notice, one of the plans is to lynch tmh now, for those that prefer that option. Now, if we are killing the treestump tomorrow, then plan A1 or A2 are the only choices that will work.

Additionally, I think I'd make a good candidate to get the Bus Driver ability tomorrow, so I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Ummm... you are almost (but not quite) the worst candidate for that.

Hey, instead of complaining about what you can't do, why don't you make a concerted effort at what you

CAN

do? You know, like... scumhunt? Other than themanhimself, I have no clue whom you suspect and why, and even with what I do know about your suspicions with TMH it's not an awful lot.

speakign of scum hunting..

before you made this post, did you at least go back to review my posts to see?? yeah thats what I thought...I have stated why I feel TMH is scummy (at least twice)...

bottom line, stealing the vig ability to kill a townie is scummy (on many different levels)..so you can play down that suspicion all you want (noted), but it was a scummy move.

He also asked you who else is scummy. I'd like an answer as well.

Of course, if there's a nightvig they could just shoot ckd and be done with it. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of sending the treestump to TMH, because if we do loose the dayvig we'd be forced to let him live until day 4, of course the problem with that is that by dealing with the stump separate from TMH we could be leaving it too late to actually do anything about it.

On the note of a nightvig, I like that a lot. If there is a nightvig, and they kill ckd, it solves quite a few problems (for example, all problems that you mention in this quote). So I guess we modify the plan to: if there is a nightvig, take out ckd, and then we can just apply the virus as someone suggested earlier; if there is no nightvig, proceed as has been planned.

I got the virus and passed it to diddin, I think he's extremely scummy and I've brought it up before. One thing I want to mention is that from my interpretation of the redirector role PM, it's not a standard ability. I'm only bringing this up because if diddin survives and passes the ability, he'll probably try to pass it to scum to clear one or the other (assuming he's scum, which I am).

Need to double check, doesn't Diddin say later that it is a standard ability?

I already asked tmh what caused him to believe that it was a nonstandard ability and he refused to answer.

Also, I can't tell if this slot is voting, so.

Vote: quadz (L-way too many)

RedCoyote is fine too.

I can agree with this. I had a townread on quadz earlier, but ever since I said that, he has been making sure that I see that he thinks I am town. His behavior has caused me to drop my townread into a scumread, but not down to Wrath or Nero or RedCoyote levels. Although, with some people thinking that Nero is town, I thought back and realized I haven't seen anything particularly scummy from him since D1, so maybe I have been holding onto that one due to confirmation bias (read: tunneling), and so maybe quadz has decreased below Nero. I'll have to reread Nero to see how I feel about him, but I don't know when I will have time to do that sort of thing.

Let's look at the last few posts before his shot.

You guys shoot whoever you want. I can't find scum in this game and I just give up. Well I can't totally give up, I've got a duty to play to my wincon, but I am going to take a break. I've read too many players wrong this game, I need some time to develop a new angle on this game. Or more information.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel this way a bit too. I really like the game concept/setup idea, but the town just seems to be imploding . We need to hit scum soon.

To which he replies

C'mon guys, don't wuss out, I'm playing in like four games right now and this one is hands down my favorite. I don't like that sentiment coming from parama because it sounds to me like he's scum who knows that he's caught. Implosion and pops haven't been major suspects so I don't necessarily see that coming from them. I'll do the game a three fold favor right now

The comment that implosion and pops "haven't been major suspects" is somewhat strange, but the fact remains that he thought he was doing a good thing. Besides, I think asking about the No Lynch D1 pretty much cements that tmh is impulsive when he tries to be helpful, and this is more of the same.

The comment about implosion and pops comes from the fact that Parama made a similar post to the ones you quoted, and this is what tmh magically thought meant "caught scum". But it didn't mean that coming from the other two because they weren't suspects (read: easy targets).

I don't like defending other people for them. They usually take the opportunity to look scummier, although they usually still flip Town. But it's the only way a VI-type seems to be able to get a fair shake.

I have seemed to notice you doing this more than I remember seeing from you. I'm not sure if that's my bad memory or there being more of "that type of player" in this game than I am used to.

Honestly? I don't have a clue who to vote FOR. I haven't the foggiest idea of who's scum, except for thinking TMH and diddin are scummy, and as described above, voting for them isn't a good idea.

Well... let us assume you have read the game. Then what about the case on Wrath do you disagree with? What about the case on RedCoyote do you disagree with? In fact, I will add some that I disagree with too: What about the case on Bunny do you disagree with? What about the case on pops do you disagree with? What about the case on LynchMePls do you disagree with? Let's hear why it is that you cannot find any people to vote for.

@RedCoyote #1566: You're advocating for lynching tmh and stating that people are admitting that the dayvig is not coming back. Well, multiple people have been working on a plan that DOES in fact keep the dayvig around. So, have you been reading?

Honestly? I don't have a clue who to vote FOR. I haven't the foggiest idea of who's scum, except for thinking TMH and diddin are scummy, and as described above, voting for them isn't a good idea.

So, other than those two no other scum read? Not even partial or slightly leaning scum scumreads? Really?

I have scumreads on Nero Cain, Bunny, and Saint still. I could have my vote on any one of the three, but it wouldn't mean anything, and I don't really think any of them is scummier than another. If it's gonna be an issue for me to not my have my vote somewhere, I'll throw it on one of the three of them.

But you just said that you "haven't the foggiest idea who's scum". And now, it's: I have always thought these guys were scum. Hmmm... I just did an iso of you, and what do you know, its almost as if you had to iso yourself to find who you are suspicious of. Congratulations, you have just committed one of my top scumtells. I now pronounce you the scummiest member of my scumlist.

VOTE: quadz08

[nhammen]

To be more specific on that last comment: people got on his case for not having suspects, so he went to his iso to find who his suspects were, and saw his iso 44.

[nhammen]

I haven't answered this yet, but from my posts, it should be obvious. I will do so anyways.

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

My answers
1) yes
2) yes

1) Yes
2) Yes

Also, @Saint #1593: Good research. But I wouldn't wait up for tmh to answer questions; he has been refusing to do so for quite some time.

[RedCoyote]

theman has exhibitted the sort of anti-town play that i just dont expect to flip scum. It'd probably be hard to convince anyone else of this.

Well, Saint has certainly been trying. What about diddin, then?

---

So then how do we deal with the treestump? If we lynch TMH now we get rid of the only way that we know exists to get rid of it. Yes, chances are that it'll get taken out/voided but there's also a chance that it won't and I think we need to keep TMH alive for today based on that chance to deal with the treestump tomorrow.

I don't think that's feasible. We're putting too much to chance. ckd can flip it to someone like a Bunny or LynchMePls who right now I'm only so-so on (haven't really felt big town/scum vibes from either of them) and take them out. Of course if theman were to flip town, diddin would be the obvious choice.

---

In most games with more than one kill at Night, the idea of two scumgroups never comes up at all. So why is this game a special occasion? And for bonus points, RedCoyote, why is themanhimself scummy for mentioning a different possibility?

The size of the game is a factor you're discounting. The lack of any scumflip so far.

Look, but, be honest. You're trying to paint me as the bad guy here. I don't think you're being very fair here. I was asked. Point blank.

I was asked

how could diddin and theman both be scum given the ability passing mechanic. I responded.

I was asked

how theman's flip could give us a better clue about the setup. So come off this idea that I'm trying to treat this game special or corrupt people into my line of thinking. I'm throwing possibilities out there based on what little we've been shown so far.

As I said, theman is scummy for doing this because he's stating the obvious, uncalled for, truth that two deaths likely means another killing party. The he jumps to an SK or vigshot without warrant or provocation is scummy. If you don't agree with that, then you don't.

Further, hammering in that diddin and themanhimself CAN BOTH BE SCUM UNDER THIS NOT-NECESSARILY-APPLICABLE CIRCUMSTANCE seems like a good way to stop Town reads from coming out, which is really rather harmful for the Town, so etc.

That's a two way street though. Don't kill the messenger. Absolutely I acknowledge the benefits of having a scumflip from diddin or theman on the living party. I'm just saying it's foolish to run around saying that he's confirmed town. Are you prepared to do that?

Unless you can tell me why it looks wholly ungenuine, the only response to the first sentence here is... so what? And my response to the rest is - why not vote quadz for the same logic?

Suggesting a no lynch looks just hunky-dory to you then? We may just be on different planets this game.

The fact that he brought this comment up out of the blue feels like he's trying to beat his chest a little bit and show others how analytical he can be. It doesn't feel like a townie who is considering the situation, it feels like scum trying to looking townie.

As far as quadz goes, the only thing I really don't like about him is his wagon-teasing. I have a slight scum read on him, but this is a completely different situation altogether.

*You can't hide that you have the dayvig if you're planning to use it. diddin did say that you had to post inthread to use it. If you're planning to use it, there's no reason not to say you have it.

I don't know what the ability looks like, but what's to prevent someone from saying "I have the daykill" in one post, then in the next post a second later, "

Daykill: Saint

"?

it must be hideously anti-Town for us to lynch on Day 2 because there are seven fewer Townies directing the lynch.

That's apples to oranges, and we had this argument before you started posting. A "democratic daykill" is not the same as a lynch, and I shouldn't have to explain why. For one thing, you're counting people who vote to shoot four different players. For another, not everyone is doing it. For another, a player still has the trigger, not the Mod. I could go on if you need me to.

And it showed when people - all but one of whom I have a Town read on - wanted Parama out.

Well, look, theman didn't follow any set procedure. It was sloppy. At least give me that much. I may have underestimated how much people disliked Parama in retrospect, because, you're right, I didn't do a count of those vigkill votes. Still, it's not appropriate to make this big show of stealing the daykill and announcing you're going to do it democratically and then fire off without any serious discussion in the middle of the smoke clearing from Darla's death. That looks bad. It looks worse that theman doesn't want to own up to it and doesn't want to defend his shot, regardless of the informal, sloppy voting thing. It was handled much differently during the first day.

You know, come to think of it, you're not counting actual votes here, are you? Because you didn't count my vigvote or my actual vote, that's for sure. I may have to go back and do this myself after all. I'm starting to dispute how you arrived at Parama leading the pack when he never, as far as I know, has broken five actual votes since possibly the beginning of the game.

You're welcome to push for the lynches of people you think are scum, but guaranteeing that someone will flip scum reeks of CAPS LAWCK or inside information. And one of the few pro-Town things I can say about your play in this game is that you're not CAPS LAWKE.

Of course I don't guarantee he's scum, but it's a smidge better than guaranteeing that both RC and quadz are scum (unless you have inside information that is).

---

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

1) Yes
2) Yes

---

So the entire Day 1 Nero doesn't look twice at me. Then I ask a question regarding the Darla Lynch and all of a sudden I'm Obvscum and I'm scumbuddies with my #1 Scumspect.

NC, I'd like to hear your response to this as well.

---

Who are we lynching?

The short and sweet version of it is themanhimself is the best lynch today. He shot our Doctor, stole the Vig ability so that he could secure the idea of using it "democratically", he proposed a no lynch yesterday, and has generally been saying things to try and make himself look townie without actually doing anything to back it up.

---

OK, my original question

Slip is the wrong word in that case, but it's a false argument nonetheless. Once you can forgive as stupid or in genuine error, twice you can't, nhammen.

Where do I state that there is one large scumgroup? Where do I state that diddin is confirmed town? In fact, I explicitly state that he may be scum! Are you just refusing to read?

I'm reading them, but if you don't account for this circumstances then your plan is weak because the key components have no reason to follow through on them. How can you expect diddin to steal the dayvig from theman and then give it to someone else if you think "he may be scum"?

Ummm... you are almost (but not quite) the worst candidate for that.

I was being tongue-in-cheek with pops a bit, but I honestly think there is no better candidate to have that ability right now.

Well, multiple people have been working on a plan that DOES in fact keep the dayvig around. So, have you been reading?

Look, it's a luxury that I'm not sure we can afford. You do realize we have to use the Virus to shoot, right? Are you prepared to kill two more people tomorrow if we lynch a townie today?

[Nero Cain]

yes for both.