Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[themanhimself]

Ok, it's still strangercoug or lateralus22, because why would someone send their secret vote to me but not their real vote? I suppose they could be hedging their bets but that doesn't really make a lot of sense and it doesn't really get us anywhere either.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Wow. I am so confused LOL. I need to brush up on game mechanics better now that I have been away so long. The secret vote/whatever the hell that is, that's not actually confirmed yet, right? I get the impression MOD isn't going to be answering us there, and

Parama how do you know Lat is confirmed town exactly?

Rereading the last three pages as I feel a bit whirlwinded.

Also don't quite know what to think about pops replacing out when he was that close to a lynch...seems a bit fishy to me.

[themanhimself]

Also don't quite know what to think about pops replacing out when he was that close to a lynch...seems a bit fishy to me.

Fairly certain you misread that, I think pops was calling for parama to replace out

[implosion]

tmh, if you don't advocate a no lynch, why would you even bring up the possibility of it? What does the town gain from you bringing up the possibility of something that gives the town no gain? That post is probably one of the strangest things i came across in my reread.

But even scummier than that is the voting me at all. If he's town then he knows he needs to protect himself to win so he should know that people who defend him are being pro-town. This doesn't mean he should buddy up to me and never examine me again, but I should be reading pro-town to him.

So if player X declares townie Y town, townie Y should think player X is town... interesting.

Hey guys, I just wanna say this... I think everyone in this game is town and you're all awesome . So no one should vote me or you're an antitown scumbag who hates life and likes killing puppies. [/exaggeration][/sarcasm]

I like both leading bandwagons. Which makes me happy. If I had a vote, it'd still be on tmh. Powerrox is scummy just for (as has been said) his declaration of Helghasttown without any evidence. It's basically saying, "hey, this guy is town, i said he was town before he flipped so I was right so we shouldn't lynch me." If he had given a compelling argument that Helghast was town before he flipped, it could very well be a towntell on Powerrox - but in this case, it really isn't and it's just an attempt to look town.

diddin's probably scum too, but that's been gone into enough already. Delaying the shot, etc.

Also I think WC is town. I really don't get the scummy vibe that a lot of people seem to get from him. I'll go into that later if necessary, but he appears to have died town as a topic.

I may have gotten

a bit

really lazy during the end of my reread, so if there's anything important I missed let me know.

@StrangerCoug

, please change your vote to someone with 0 votes on them so we can see if you're a doublevoter or if it's some strange extra vote ability. If you're a doublevoter, it's probably going to be seen anyway.

Also, an extra vote makes sense since I'm missing a vote and the number needed to lynch still reflects the number alive.

Deadline's in 3-4 days btw.

[Powerrox93]

Lat is confirmed town

What the hell are you talking about?

Preview edit: It's stranger coug

1. Yes
2. Yes

1: It doesn't really answers the question on why Lat is confirmed townie?

[diddin]

Fuckin hell man the deadline is getting close.

A powerrox lynch is preferable to me over a tmh lynch. Outside of suggesting a no lynch, tmh has played fairly pro-town. Powerrox's iso drips of scum, pinning suspicion on Parama forever for the muh bomb (which was not Parama's fault) and failing to explain his strong town read on Helghast.

Unvote, vote:powerrox

since the quadz lynch isn't happening in the next few days.

There's been talk of vigging me. If you guys think it's going to happen, implosion should at least pass me the tree stump ability so it can go away at the time of my death.

[nhammen]

Continuing with my reread:

Currently I'm not liking Muh, a couple of posts and no content; I'm also not liking quadz based on his "scumslip" vote on paramas nulltell.

I'm not too keen on the idea of a massclaim early on, however removing anti-town abilities early on could prove beneficial then the scum would be left guessing as to what is in game and where...

Also the spud has a "time limit" of X amount of posts for those who missed it... I would guess that the trigger is around 150~250 posts.

Oh and something about this post just didn't sit well with me...

Your name doesn't sit well with me...

AntB's accusations look too easy to me. Also, they were not accompanied by a vote. Why not? (Oh, he's dead)
I would like a little bit more comment from I Am Innocent, but I do agree with him. Also, not worthy of a change of vote?
And, I can definitely see why Helghast was killed.

Also

Vote: Quadz08

. Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

What's scummy about this "scumslip" catch. You can't just say, hey this looks scummy without reasoning. Or rather, you can, but it wont convince anybody. Also, Parama's power isn't quite so powerful as you make it out to be.

I also have an issue with your jump to wrathchild. When you vote quadz is looks like you're taking that vote fairly seriously, then you vote wrathchild for not revoting after he unvoted. It's a weak reason for a vote anyway and an even moreso as a reason to change your vote. Especially with nothing from quadz in between to explain a potential lessening of suspicion. My thought is that you didn't like that your quadz vote had gotten attention from MoI..

Unvote, Vote diddin.

I also didn't like diddin's vote of WrathChild. That was such a light reason. And your theory does provide a very interesting explanation for his actions.

If muh flips scum, parama is obvitown imo, I reckon theres about a 99% chance of that right now.

Uhhhhhh.... why? Muh was an easy target for the potato, regardless of Parama's alignment.

Uhhhhhh.... why? As in, why would scum bomb his scumbuddy like that?

Notice, I agree with the people that say that Parama's bombing of muh is a nulltell. If muh had actually done the correct thing, he would have gotten rid of the bomb ASAP. However, I must also say that some of Parama's actions surrounding this event were a bit overconfident of him.

With muh flipping town

VOTE: Parama

I'm going to believe muh on that one

Uh, what?

Also on another note, I'm starting to think my predecessor may have been tunneling on Parama just a tad bit too much.

Now there is talk of Day-Vigging me. That's a bit hastey. I guess I'll address the Scumday thing. I saw that Diddin (I think that was who, I'll double check) had put up a lame pointless vote on me (for Unvoting a RVS Vote) and figured he was baiting me into OMGUS voting him to drive his case further. I wasn't going to let him have that satisfaction, so I just refrained from voting him at the moment. I think it was Diddin trying to fish around for someone's overreaction. Normally I'd take that as a Null-Tell, but when trying to get "The New Guy" with this seems to tip the scales a bit on the scummy side.

So you were specifically trying to avoid OMGUSing? By making up an excuse for an action. Before this, I didn't really find you scummy, but this just rings alarm bells.

Are you getting town vibes from Parama or do you have role information that leads you to believe that Parama is town? These are two very different concepts.

Unvote

;

vote: diddin

At first he said he had reason to believe Parama was town because of his role, then he said that he was getting "town vibes" off of him, which strikes me as a completely different reasoning.

Ummm... can you show me where diddin says anything about role information about Parama. Because, I never saw anything like that. And I'm worried you may just be making up an excuse to vote diddin.

D'oh! Second one was @Ant. Why do I think that about Tree Stump? It's in the wiki. Which is why I asked Eruci if he's modified any roles... to clarify my assumpion that the ability can only be used if claimed in thread.

I'm gonna say that this is another example of where the wiki is wrong. I have never seen the role used in this way. I have already found and fixed really awful errors in the No Lynch and Jester articles quite some time ago.


Arg! Still rereading

[nhammen]

I know I haven't caught up, but as far as I am, diddin is my #1 suspect, and I saw this post and feel I have to reply.

There's been talk of vigging me. If you guys think it's going to happen, implosion should at least pass me the tree stump ability so it can go away at the time of my death.

Wasn't the treestump going to be used as a cycling investiaton? I'm not sure if you are the person to be suggesting any course of action. Unless I have missed us deciding that it is better to remove the stump than use it for an investigation. In which case: please ignore the ramblings of a madman that hasnt caught up.

[popsofctown]

It's a hotly debated point atm. Me and diddin think the treestump ability should be removed early so it doesn't stick around longer than we want it to and functionally kill 1-2 townies at LyLo.


My opponents thinks getting possibly one, maybe, maaaybe two confirmed innocents off the ability is worth that risk.

[RedCoyote]

Ummm... can you show me where diddin says anything about role information about Parama. Because, I never saw anything like that. And I'm worried you may just be making up an excuse to vote diddin.

Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

The latter part leads one to believe that Parama's ability is more likely to be a townie ability than a scum one. The problem is, this shouldn't, under normal circumstances, weigh in on your read at all. I don't have any knowledge that any of the "powerful PRs" are more likely to be town/scum. Do you?

---

A little behind guys, but I honestly don't care who eats this lynch. With theman I feel his comment was extremely out of place, and, really, whether he choose to defend it (as he has) or backpedal from it, I'd probably still see it as scummy. For a player that has been around as long as he has, it just strikes me as completely out of place. As to Power, his vote of theman once again backs up my observation that everything Power does is concocted, artificial, and really out of touch with the game. I think we should force those who aren't choosing between these two wagons to opine on today's lynch within the context of Power vs theman. Bunnylover and nhammen in particular are important pieces right now. My vote, frankly, may be influenced by how these other votes end up going.

[Saint]

unvote;
vote: powerrox93

I'm not liking the TMH wagon
I'm suspicious of Darla as well

[Saint]

@

MoI: What are your thoughts on Diddin?

[q21]

Right, so it's gotten to the point in the day where I'm happy to just go:

MOAR POWERROX VOTES PLEASE!

And be done with it.

[StrangerCoug]

@StrangerCoug

, please change your vote to someone with 0 votes on them so we can see if you're a doublevoter or if it's some strange extra vote ability. If you're a doublevoter, it's probably going to be seen anyway.

UNVOTE: themanhimself
VOTE: RedCoyote

[Parama]

Powerrox, claim. I am 99% sure you're at L-1 without even checking the votecount, and I'm totally up for hammering if only to get this game to move forward so we can lynch Wrath and THM in the coming days.

[The Eruci]

:: VoteCount 1x16 ::

LynchMePls (1) -

WrathChild

RedCoyote (1) -

StrangerCoug

MagnaOfIllusion (0) -

themanhimself (6) -

RedCoyote, Powerrox93, I Am Innocent, Parama, Lateralus22

Lateralus22 (0) -

WrathChild (0) -

curiouskarmadog (0) -

Powerrox93 (10) -

q21, Nero Cain, MagnaofIllusion, quadz08, popsofctown, themanhimself, DarlaBlueEyes, chkflip, diddin, Saint

quadz08 (0) -

chkflip (0) -

Nero Cain (1) -

curiouskarmadog

DarlaBlueEyes (1) -

LynchMePls

q21 (0) -

diddin (0) -

popsofctown (0) -

Bunnylover (0) -

I Am Innocent (0) -

StrangerCoug (0) -

Parama (0) -

Implosion (0) -

nhammen (0) -

Saint (0) -

Not Voting (3) -

implosion, nhammen, Bunnylover

With 22 Alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Deadline for Day One is currently set for Thursday January 13, 2011 at 9:00 pm EST.

[popsofctown]

He's at L-2. You can't possibly be 99% sure without checking the votecount. L - 2 is probably good enough to claim close to deadline.

Edit: ninjaed by a votecount

A little behind guys, but I honestly don't care who eats this lynch. With theman I feel his comment was extremely out of place, and, really, whether he choose to defend it (as he has) or backpedal from it, I'd probably still see it as scummy. .... I think we should force those who aren't choosing between these two wagons to opine on today's lynch within the context of Power vs theman. Bunnylover and nhammen in particular are important pieces right now. My vote, frankly, may be influenced by how these other votes end up going.

This is such scummy posting. Feeling equally comfortable with two available lynches is legitimately possible for a townie, but I expect that position more from scum. Reminds me of my rather crappy SK play.

"My vote, frankly, may be influenced by how these other votes end up going."
The phrasing here makes this not at all sound like "I'll help whichever needs a hammer at deadline", which would be much more ok.

As a townie, this influence should never happen, unless you think Bunnylover and nhammen significantly better at mafia than you are. There's no reason for it except to be in a popular place to be be, which is a scummy desire.

They're REASONING can influence you, and perhaps that's what made this seem ok to let slip. But you said votes, you didn't say you'd like to hear what they had to say.


An all of that aside, even if a gameplan of proxying your vote to the most popular wagon is proper pro town play, there's no reason to warn us that "my vote may be influenced by how these other votes end up going". We'll find out if it causes a change when we find out if it causes a change. Reading that you might sheep on nhammen's and Bunnylovers decisions doesn't make me have to replan how I play the game. Your vote is where it is, and it's possible it can change. That's always the case.

Instead it seems defensive, a preemptive warning that when you hammer whoever bunnylover and nhammen would like for you, if they do manage to influence you, that you don't expect to be challenged about it because you announced it beforehand.

[popsofctown]

Hey actually, NO ONE VOTE POWERROX until we know what's going on with the secret voter. If it's scum controlled and truly has no culpability, scum can secret hammer an L-1 powerrox just before he gets to claim.

[Powerrox93]

/Claim secret doublevoter


I can prove it, by the next WC their should a vote on saint and one less on TMH

[I Am Innocent]

/Claim secret doublevoter


I can prove it, by the next WC their should a vote on saint and one less on TMH

Does this power cycle?

[popsofctown]

All powers in this game cycle except the scum nightkill.

His power is antitown, it's more useful for endgame quickhammering than it is for letting townies get more say in the lynch, since it's more about exposing who's scum than having enough voting power to take the player down.

Feel oh so free to hammer this guy.

[popsofctown]

Hm, well actually, i looked back at the OP to see if everything cycles, and realized that this

"Ability Cycling: At the end of each night you are required to select a different player for each ability to cycle your ability to. Meaning, for each ability you have you must choose a different person to pass the ability to at the end of the night."
is part of the townie role pm, not part of the rules. So it's a rule that applies to me because it's in my role pm, not because it's in the rules. The rules just say who I can and can't cycle to when I cycle.

It seems possible that a town power role, scum figurehead, or empowered SK could have no such clause, and just accumulate powers over time.

Anyhow. Lynch powerrox

[Bunnylover]

It really doesn't matter what he claims.
What ever anyone claims, scum can have that power too.
If he claims a role we would like, like Doctor, then scum or an SK, if we have one, just kills him.
But besides that as I'm sure everyone realized that.

I read through Powerrox93 ISO, and about 90% of it was, "Why was Helgeast Scummy?"
If you take the time to look through Helgeast ISO, you see he constantly says that he doesn't vote, which everyone knows voting is the most powerful tool a townie has during the day. Along the fact that his thought pattern fits with scum not wanting to show up on a vote analysis and he said he blantly avoids mislynches. Hasn't provided content, reads, or anything. This is why he is scummy to me.

As for TMH, I don't know. He says he doesn't understand the case on Powerrox93, then the moment Powerrox93 votes TMH, its like, "OH THIS IS SCUMMY NOW." Too quick of a change of thoughts, too OMGUS, and basically an overreaction. I was defending you, so I am pro-town in your eyes? Or you could be scum trying to buddy up to a person you know it town. Could be either.
Frankly I agree that Powerrox93 is just trying to get any other kind of wagon started to save himself.

Vote: Powerrox93

That puts him at L-1

[WrathChild]

Ok, I had a scum read on Powerrox from earlier, I still think Lynchme is scummiest, but we can address that tomorrow. The extra vote is dangerous in scum hands as well.

UNVOTE, VOTE: Powerrox

I also still think that there is something suspicious about all the Leading Questions in Latteralus' ISO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Lat

– Yeah, I haven’t had time to make that full chkflip case and give deadine is hear it will have to wait until tomorrow.

@Parama

– If you masterful scum-hunting prowess is so easily able to be defeated by people posting large posts I’m guessing you probably don’t deserve to win the ‘Master Scumhunter’ Scummie you are up for.

@Pops

– Your ‘democratic’ method of directing the Vig has played out. I hope you are happy.

TMH has managed to remove completely any semblance of a Town read I have on him with his float of a No Lynch Day 1 and subsequent tries to explain why he did so. I further dislike his attempt to move the near deadline discussion to ‘narrowing down’ who the secret double voter is. It tells us nothing about said person’s alignment.

Darla’s constant lack of content (combined with pointless sarcasm as shown at 654) has solidified her position on my scum-list that Narsis previously held for his back play.

Chkflip’s catch-up post has all the hallmarks of scum play –

1. Complaints about Town’s position being ‘worse’. Classic attempt to look like a concerned Town while saying nothing of consequence.
2. Bandwagon vote with ‘reasons’ coming later. Yes, I see that he said the reasons would come later. Better to give a summary now in-case he loses internet again before his catch-up.

PREVIEW EDIT

– Bunny and Wrath get major scum points for moving to hammer Power before he could claim whether his ability cycled or not.

--

I also think that Diddin should examined a bit closer because essentially he limited his Vig targets to only myself and Helghast, he refused to kill EC. It seems to be a safe-scum play to limit the vig targets as he did. While he made it appear that we had a choice, it was win-win for Diddin IF he is scum.

Oh I think he should be examined but thanks to the Democratic plan you really can’t attack his choices as he was following the will of the people. He was handed a crutch, as I’ve said many time repeatedly.

--

I think that entire argument is full of WIFOM and doesn't really prove a point one way or the other. I've already brought up this analogy but it likes saying a player is godfather because they came up innocent to a cop investigation. It could be one thing masquerading as another but it's more likely to just be that thing. Occam's razor.

1. Occam’s Razor has no place in Mafia games. Seriously. Almost everytime I see it invoked (for reference, look at Parama’s use earlier this same game) it is wrong.
2. This situation is nothing like a Godfather / Cop situation. It’s a bad analogy.
3. If you don’t believe in the behavioral tell that’s one thing. Heck, since you yourself are engaging in the same behavior that Powerrox is getting flack for, to some degree. But to outright dismiss it when other players find it credible to varying degrees is foolish.

--

vote: TMH for having me as his #1 suspect, yet voting someone who is not his #1 suspect
flawed logic
plus im town

It’s only flawed logic when we are not running up against deadline. Which we are.

And stop the pointless protests about being Town. It’s not convincing anyone and looks rather suspect when you are in no way, shape or form likely to be the lynch today.

@MoI: What are your thoughts on Diddin?

He’s not played in any fashion I really consider Pro-Town (lack of scum-hutning, etc), his unprovoked claim was terrible, and he’s been allowed to coast due to the ‘Popularly Decided Dayvig’ giving him outs from proactively looking for scum and shooting them.

I’d place him in my second tier of suspects behind players like Chkflip, Darla, etc.

--

I still don't understand this phrase, "easy target", that I've heard all across mafiascum. What does it mean?

Aren't scum easier to attack than other players? So then wouldn't being an easy target be correlated with being scummy? So why would it ever be used as an argument, ever?

The easy target argument is a bad one but I’ll try to explain why people use it.

There is a perception that certain people (VIs, Lurkers) who display behaviors that are consistently Anti-Town do to playstyle are more likely to be targeted by scum looking for mislynches. And said players rarely are able of forming capable defenses of themselves under pressure. Thus the perception by some that they are ‘easy targets’.

Of course this argument ignores that said players can just as easily be selected to be scum as everyone else and can play in a scummy fashion on top of being Anti-Town by nature. Thus why that argument is bad.

[quote="Pops]His power is antitown, it's more useful for endgame quickhammering than it is for letting townies get more say in the lynch, since it's more about exposing who's scum than having enough voting power to take the player down.[/quote]

Disagree, again. Town having the ability to vote twice (to make up for the lack of vote in the Treestump) is useful. I’d point you to [REDACTED] if I could.