Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Lost Butterfly]

Let's just skip RVS and get down to business.

(Well, actually...

Daykill: Fate

I've waited for months to do that!)

I'm in favour of a mass Noise/No noise and Ward target claim, popcorn style. Faraday and I were in favour of a mass claim, but then I noticed that players who resuscitate that night can't be resuscitated. So I don't think we should give away who has what equipment.

I think Faraday had his own opinions on who'd be most likely to go murderer, but my personal choice to go first would be VasudeVa, because of this post from the sign-up thread:

This makes me want to help a murderer win. (Especially after seeing that ultra delicious Cult win flavor yum, yum. <3.)

Someone awesome please go murderer? <3vpbaltarsottyrulezojanenspyrexmagnaofillusion I'mlookinatyou

Anyone have another choice?

====================================================
EBWOPreview: Ninja'd by RC and Magna. Do people agree that we should do it in order to maximize the chances of someone slipping up?

I myself also Heard Noise and did not Ward. I don’t think at this juncture we are going to get a ton of information out of who heard noises. Anyone who didn’t hear noise might provide something to go on as those players (if telling the truth) can’t be the target of a NK action N1 and thus should not be protected via Resuscitate.

I think it's still informative to claim if you heard noise AND ward targets, because:

1) It allows for better direction of Resuscitation/Warding tonight:

i-if someone didn't ward and heard noise, we know absolutely that he was stalked or had a fetish crafted of him (unless he's lying), and would be a good resuscitation target.

i--if someone claims to have warded you, you know you can't be killed tonight. (Although hang on, I just thought of a caveat.

Mods: will players be informed if Craft Fetish and/or Stalk fails?

) Other players would also know that a protown player who didn't hear noise would be a good ward target on N1.

2) It might be interesting to see how the numbers match up (if a suspiciously high or suspiciously low number of people claim to have heard noise, for example).

[Lost Butterfly]

(By the way, Faraday and I can start signing our hydra posts, but I think it's pretty easy to guess who's who just by looking at the word count. )

Welcome everyone. A few people I know (glad to be playing with Spy and VP), a lot of new faces for me.

I have a question for everyone: What is your Stars Aligned experience? That is, have you played in both 1 and 2, just one of them, or is this your first?

Personally, this is my first Stars Aligned game.

This is my first Stars Aligned game, although I'd skimmed the post-game of the second one. I think Faraday said he'd replaced out of SAII.

I would appreciate if someone who has played in at least one previous Stars Aligned game would weigh in on the merits of noise-claiming versus not. We know that people who didn't hear noise today won't die tonight, but it also gives the cultists information and I'm not entirely convinced it's in our favor to claim noise. If a player heard noise and WASN'T targeted by cultists, cultists know they were either warded or stalked (or warded someone else.) The benefit to town seems smaller than this, and so I'm leaning towards saying we shouldn't claim noise.[/quote]
I haven't played either of the SAs, but I don't get your argument. How does it help the cultists to know that someone was warded or stalked on N0?

Meanwhile, if we know who heard noise and wasn't warded, we can figure out who most likely to die tonight and stop the kill.

hitorogoshi, since you're the one arguing we shouldn't noise-claim, what possible benefit do you think the cult would glean from knowing who was warded on N0?

[Lost Butterfly]

There's stuff I wanted to say to hitorogoshi, but I have to go, so I'll save it for later.

I just remembered that there's another juicy benefit to a Noise/No Noise and Ward Target claim, but I won't give it away until after a massclaim.

Kunkstar and RC, since the cat is out of the bag, did you ward?

Is anyone interested in continuing this in order, or should I just claim to make this go more quickly?

Also, has Furcolow just been confirmed town?

[Lost Butterfly]

furc's a dumb wagon at this stage and very likely town. yeah I don't really care if he's a grade a idiot. The whole not reading the playerlist does show high levels of idiocy, but since el goose or w/e is basically drip + 1 I can see Percy assuming that's what he meant, MOI's already asked Percy anyway.

I don't get why Fate is scum, is it some game mechanic?

Vote Triglav

[Lost Butterfly]

Also heard Noise/didn't ward.

[Lost Butterfly]

did you just fucking mix me and Mina up?

[Lost Butterfly]

Unvote; Vote: Furcolow

for trying to confirm himself so eagerly, without proper basis.

Why is this vote-worthy? There's not inherently wrong with trying to confirm yourself as town.

EDIT: OKAY <3

[Lost Butterfly]

thread asplosion of IDIOCY.

[Lost Butterfly]

Seriously this pissing match is stupid, I don't care which of you has the biggest dick. I think Fate's town from his reaction - his reaction here really reminds me of Cross Edge bastard. He also sounds genuinely pissed off which I think he's more likely to be as town.

Triglav needs more votes, by the by. Let's not have all this distract us from the scum in front of us.

[Lost Butterfly]

Aaaaaaaaaaaah!

I'm in 100% agreement with my other head here.

Shut up. Shut the fuck up, both of you.

I should be trying to catch up on this game right now and looking for the scum. Instead I have to waste time tearing my hair out and keeping my blood pressure from rising. Why? BECAUSE YOU'RE BEING FUCKING IMMATURE IDIOTS WHO'VE MONOPOLIZED THE DISCUSSION AND MADE THE LAST FEW PAGES A SOUL-CRUSHING CHORE TO READ!

Seriously. You do not realize that the LAST FIVE PAGES have been nothing but you two name-calling each other? You do not realize that that's pretty fucking sad? Some of us are here to play Mafia, not eat popcorn and watch a flame war.

I'll give Fate a few points in this stupid pissing contest and say 1) no, he doesn't deserve to be policy-lynched/murdered, and 2) stalking him N0 was extremely antitown. And if you can just murder him tonight anyway, Benmage, then why are you even wasting your breath?

But...stop. Please. Otherwise, I'd be in favour of forced replacements.

The saddest part is that I'm getting town reads on both of you, and you're both good enough players to accomplish awesome things if you just LET THIS GO!

</rant>

[Lost Butterfly]

this caps lock thing feels really unnatural from andrius.

[Lost Butterfly]

272's pretty cool, who's scum?

[Lost Butterfly]

The verbose head of the butterfly has been lurking in the shadows all day, following the thread on her phone, waiting for a moment to pounce

with a giant wall

.

I'll have more to say later when I get home (although ATM, I have more thoughts on who's town than who's scum), but better get this out there before even more people claim:

xvart, you never claimed WHO you warded. Who was your target? Also, why didn't you claim it considering even your helpful list post contained other players' ward targets? It's not like you can claim ignorance.

Question to both xvart and Magna: what do you think of Furcolow now that the discrepancy between ward targets is explained? Still

a viable mislynch

scum?

Andrius, we're claiming if we heard noise and who we warded (if anyone). If you didn't ward, you don't have to claim your action....

Actually, just thought of something.

If anyone is town and Stalked last night, claim now

.

Lastly, @Vasu, why no reaction to my saying you might go murderer? Shouldn't you be defending your honour?

[Lost Butterfly]

Uh-oh.

Did I just unwittingly post five thousand words from the wrong account?

Normally, I'd requote 385-387 for ISO purposes, but I don't think people want to scroll through those

twice

.

One last point. The Triglav wagon is really Faraday's baby, but stuff I noticed:

1) Triglav, did you ward last night--and if so, whom?

2)

Furcolow seems to somehow make less sense with every single post. Was unaware this was possible.
Most players seem to be simple going through their usual meta dance at the beginning. Nothing exciting or worthwhile yet.

So...um, do you find the fact that Furcolow makes no sense scummy? No opinion whatsoever on his alignment?

No opinions on

anyone

? What do you mean by "meta dance"?

Now I'm really off to bed.

[Lost Butterfly]

Fate, DGB /outed before the game started. That ruins your conspiracy theory.

I can barely keep my eyes open right now, but I owe it to my other head to pick up the slack. MWAHAHAHAHA, WALL POST TIME! (Posting this in two chunks.)

DGB is apparently playing though according to Elli (it's a 3 way hydra) so not quite. It actually makes some sort of sense as crazy theories go, but I think furc looks pretty town here so I'm not sold on it, although Percy's next answer should help.

[Lost Butterfly]

Mod: would targeting an account belonging to a player in the game work even if it wasn't the account in the player list? Also, would you inform someone if he targeted a player not in the game?

Let's play hypotheticals.

If I received an action that was ambiguous or contradictory (as to what action was selected, who was the target, or they tried to double-

Search

or whatever), I would send a clarification PM. If I were to receive no reply, the player would default to

Cower

.

If, however, there is a technical error but

no ambiguity

, I will accept the action as-is. An example would be someone who submitted the

Night Action

Search:

Forensic Kit

There is no item by this name, but the intention (

Forensic

Tools

) is clear.


On an unrelated note, I urge those of you who are playing with hydra accounts to use them to post. It is important for players who wish to use the ISO function to quickly find your content. If you

do

post in your regular account, post a message from your hydra account directly after it with the text "Sorry, please merge previous post with this one" or words to that effect. I'll come through and copy-paste the content into the hydra account post.

Warding a player NOT in the game is certainly not a technical error and something that come across as not being ambiguous.

Thus furcolow's fucking lying isn't he?

Unvote Vote Furcolow

[Lost Butterfly]

this vote is more because of me accusing you after percy's post, mina.
Faraday is going to be so fucking pissed at you for associating yourself to seacore, and baby spice is so scum-VI he reminds me of vezokpiraka

That was Faraday. I can't see any reason for Percy not to get back to you. I realise what you're saying about DGB being in the game, that's mostly irrelevant though as far as I can see.

[Lost Butterfly]

Mina is lost butterfly you fucking dope.

[Lost Butterfly]

and yes i know "mina" is technically not a player slot. if they're posting, i should be able to vote for them.

JUST LIKE YOU COULD WARD DRIPPERETH AMIRIT

[Lost Butterfly]

Perhaps you should learn to read? The point isn't that they posted in the sign up thread (which I already fucking mentioned, but IQ's etc) the point is Percy would have told you they're not in the fucking game and asked for you to change your action to a valid target.

EBWOP : 'Lost Butterfly because of Mina' is not a player in the game furc,

[Lost Butterfly]

you are a fucking liar
you post on your fucking alternate account to bend the fucking rules. You say youre looking at xvart, vp baltar, and whoever the fuck else you want to look at for voting me when "im confirmed", then you vote me your fucking self. You shouldn't "look at them" you should look at your self because you are hypocritical, breaking LAL, and honestly.... pot...kettle.

You're absolutely fucking insufferable. And jesus christ it was a fucking mistake, bending the rules? You're pretty super special if you think that.

I'm clearly a 'fucking liar' yes, it's not like that Percy post came after and brought new information.

[Lost Butterfly]

Lost Butterfly you lied
You posted on Mina basically to solely bend the rules in your favor because the mod was nice enough to let you Hydra. He has warned you, and is being too nice about this whole thing. You then say "furcolow is confirmed", in an ELABORATE post, then you vote me yourself a page later. You shouldn't "look at them" you should look at yourself because you are lying and we as a town need to lynch liars. Even posting on your hydra itself is a lie and is rubbing salt on a wound that you all are inflicting upon me in tandem... i'm talking to Lost Butterfly/Baby Spice/Seacore because they are all scum.

Stop posting fucking garbage about us bending the rules to our advantage.

You are not town. You are cult. So is your "chum". You're admitting to being chummy with them, good job for admitting youre scummy with them.

I know, well am assuming at any rate given your level of literacy, that English isn't your first language but a dictionary actually shows these two words have different meanings and aren't at all synonymous. Your thanks has been gratefully accepted.

[Lost Butterfly]

Ugh, we're doomed. Anyone who hasn't already set themselves up to go on a murderous rampage is most likely strongly thinking about it now. I know I am.

Anyway...

Vote: Wickedestjr

. Just a hunch at the moment from his first post. He asks for more posting from various people but at the same time admits he hasn't even read the posts of someone he listed. To me this is something scum do (I did it when I was scum), calling on people to post more in order to try and look town, and it particularly sticks out like a sore thumb in this game. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet, we have 18 pages already and it's not like the people he listed haven't posted at all, the last thing I can imagine town doing right now is saying they want people to post more.

Thoughts on furc??

[Lost Butterfly]

Seacore's town btw. Kunkstar's also scum.

[Lost Butterfly]

Once again, Furc is in the right but still posts too damn much about it.

I go to the super ice cream fun store. Twenty seven flavors of ice cream! Yum. I decide that I want the Double Chocolate Hyperbanana ice cream - it's my favorite - and I tell the ice cream man at the counter such. However, woe is me, that is not actually a flavor of ice cream at the store! They used to have it, but they decided to add in some SuperStrawberry and you can't get the regular stuff anymore. So technically I've ordered nonexistant ice cream. But guess what? There is NO other ice cream in the store with EITHER Double Chococlate OR Hyperbanana. Double Chocolate Hyperbanana did used to be a flavor, too. So it's a technical error, because I should have looked at the menu and ordered Double Chocolate Hyperbanana SuperStrawberry, but there's

no ambiguity

, is there?

That's what I thought. Now unvote Furc and play the damn game.

'Hey we don't have that flavour, do you mean Double Chocolate Hyperbanana SuperStrawberry instead' would be what would generally happen in most ice cream stores.

Also in the sign up thread I'm pretty sure it was stated DGB wasn't in the hydra too, so it's not like hydra+1

[Lost Butterfly]

The Lost Butterfly, who dares not support Fate's lynch and will do anything he can to get rid of the people who do not 100% agree with the lynch on Fate. I can see him being a murder to get rid of his critics if he is indeed an Investigator.

Rephrase this? I get the last sentence, but I've no idea why you think that.

[Lost Butterfly]

*headdesk*

Wow. I certainly understand why Furc gets policy lynched all the time.

My god. Um, believe it or not...

no

, I didn't accidentally post from an alternate account as an evil plan to make ourselves harder to ISO and hide the change in opinions. I, Mina, made that long-winded post defending Furc, but was then confused by Percy's comment that he, and then went to bed. Then Percy responded, and Faraday decided Furcolow deserved a vote.

This is a little annoying. I remember Baltar saying in ACoK Mafia that a hydra that contradicts itself should be lynched, but I'm going to yell at my other head for a bit.

Faraday, let's just ignore his behaviour (I don't have experience with him, but if someone knows scum!Furc and thinks he's this confident, support your case) and the fact that Percy's answer was ambiguous enough to allow for Furc being town, and look at the facts:

1) First of all, the ward thing STRONGLY implies that Furc warded. He thought to claim he didn't hear noise AND warded. It would be hilarious if he'd forgot the rules from SAII and coincidentally botched his fake ward claim, but it would be an enormous coincidence. For now, I think the odds are in favour of Furc being town.

2) El Goosuki heard noise. The only explanation for Furc being scum would be:
i. El Goosuki is a scumbuddy who he'd warded or who'd told him they'd heard noise.
ii. Furc or another cultist crafted a fetish of El Goosuki, and Furc is covering his ass.
iii. Furc just made a lucky guess (even though no one has claimed to have warded Elli).

i. and ii. are by far the most likely. So what does that mean?

If El Goosuki heard noise and is town, that means they were targeted anyway. Either Furc crafted a fetish of Drippereth that was directed to El Goosuki, or Furc warded Drippereth and it was directed to El Goosuki. Furc's weird makes no sense

Fine, I'll retract my statement that Furc is confirmed and just say he's very very likely town. It's still possible Elli is Furc's scumbuddy, and they cooked up a fake noiseclaim in their QT for "confirmability," but that's kind of WIFOM. If Furc is only scum if Elli is, Furc isn't the lynch for today.

If he was scum, what the hell was the point of that random digression about Drippereth, anyway? Why didn't he just say he'd targeted El Goosuki?

Can we

please

unvote Furcolow? Pretty please?

UNVOTE: Furcolow

I need to read the last few pages to see if he'd explained his PM, though.

Also, I'm feeling worse about Seacore. I didn't like Seacore's responses to my questions. It felt too much like he was appeasing, and he never explained WHY he liked the Furc case in the first place.

[Lost Butterfly]

This fucking game.

I really don't understand the Baby Spice hate. Looking through her posts they come across as newb town to me. I absolutely understand where she's coming from with the furc hate but since that's not going anywhere w/e. The rest of her posts don't look bad though, I think the reaction to someone claiming being confirmed town isn't scummy either, it happens most games, and it's really not indicative of alignment. Not seeing her as scum at all. Bad wagon.

Can't say the Elli/DGB hydra have done anything for me so far. DGB putting Fate on her scum list is bizarre, and they've seemed to be on the periphery of the game for the most part.

Where's Kunkstar?

[Lost Butterfly]

Triglav's still scum btw. A multi hydra head (at least 3 it seems ) with only 2 posts at this stage is unacceptable. The fact their first post contained a vote on xvart for a really poor reason 'lol you made a list' is also really bad.

[Lost Butterfly]

Ojanen's in the tribolite(sp?) hydra.

[Lost Butterfly]

You've defended Seacore
Fate has defended Seacore - twice
Now you're defending BabySpice?

I know all this, and yes I am. He looks like newb town to me.

I guess you've moved on from Seacore since he's going to be lynched?
Is he still town?

Is he? I'm pretty damn sure he's town, yeah. His play here kinda reminds of early PYP 1.

[Lost Butterfly]

It

might

, but it's even more likely - again without looking back over certain things - that it's the flip side of what you're thinking. But we are thinking along the same lines, so we're great.

*half a cookie*

I see it ( I think).

ebwop: or not of what kunk said is relevant.

[Lost Butterfly]

i just really don't see the benefit of saying "player A is town" if you are town

town recognising each other as town is a good thing, surely?

Mina has been openly defending numerous players, and while you may say "many people are doing that to you", the players she has been defending have been NOT confirmed in the slightest. I mean, go read babyspice/seacore/lost butterfly/fate in iso and tell me if there aren't common themes between them all.

And? I mean, you don't NEED to defend a player who's been confirmed, they're confirmed. What's the common theme you're talking about (I'm assuming there's more than 1 between any 4 random players)

[Lost Butterfly]

I don't understand any of that sentence two posts above. Defending a player isn't inherently scummy one way or another, it's a playstyle quirk. I don't really see where you're going with any of this.

The fact these players are 'terrible' seems largely irrelevant.

ebwop: That's true, so?

[Lost Butterfly]

Why would I argue? I just said I thought they were both town less than a page ago.

[Lost Butterfly]

<Mina-head>Thanks so much to Faraday for keeping up with the thread while I've been slacking off. I've been working on and off on a huge catch-up wall post (stuff I want to say to kunkstar, xvart, Baltar, RC, and Whoever-It-Was-Who-Asked-Me-About-VasudeVa (wicked?), but it might not be ready for awhile because I'm really behind on another game), but since I've just noticed that I'm in a flame war...

Furcolow, um...I'm sorry to burst your spastic "MINA IS DEFENDING PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING WAGONED, LYNCH MINA, LYNCH MINA, LYNCH MINA" bubble, but you've actually been arguing with Faraday-head all day.

Personally, I'm not as confident as Faraday is that Seacore and Baby Spice are town--Baby Spice in particular I could see as incompetent scum. Seacore's response to me wasn't as bad as I remembered it, but I'd still like to press him a little. Neither would be my first choice for a vote right now even if I were alone, though.

Despite my question to Baltar, I would be okay with a Bowser wagon, but it would pretty much be a "Policy-lynch CSL because he's unreadable and will probably lose us this game if we leave him alive" vote.

I'm also starting to think, "Do you think Benmage, Fate, and Furcolow are all town, and not particularly likely to go murderer" should be this game's official litmus test of intelligence and/or innocence. Maybe I'll try rereading from the POV of "Benmage as a cultist who knows he'd be expected to kill Fate and thus is trying to play to his meta," because yeah, his arguments have been bad, but that seems too tinfoil hat. I don't believe that Ben would go murderer; I buy his story that he called too much attention to himself by claiming his Stalk and he wouldn't go for the impossible win condition.

But more on this when I respond to kunkstar and xvart's utterly ridiculous "Use your Commune on Furc, because he's probably town, but we want to be EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA SURE that he doesn't go a murderer" plan (even though all the evidence suggests he warded on N0).

There is no ambiguity in targeting a hydra which is the basis of a hydra in this game. The intention was quite as clear as seaching for a Forensics Kit onstead of Forensics Tools. Lost Butterfly, don't be an idiot and reverse the Townpoints Mina earned . . . too late.

You know, I shouldn't laugh, but....

(It's all the funnier if you saw the QT posts Faraday was making at the same time that he blew up at Furc. "Must...stop...attacking...Furcolow...and making an ass of myself....nooooo, falling to temptation......HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, DIE, FURCOLOW, DIE DIE DIE!")

Anyway, I didn't realize Dripping Goofball is in the El Goosuki hydra. Since Drippereth is two thirds of the El Goosuki slot, then this has all been resolved. The official Lost Butterfly party line is that Furcolow is town. And therefore, this hydra will not waste any time interacting with the logic bomb that is Furcolow, because it will only be counterproductive, and because no one listens to a word he says because he's a raving lunatic, anyway.

Isn't that right, Faraday? *elbows*

I said, ISN'T THAT RIGHT, FARADAY.

Just ignore him. I-G-N-O-R-E him. He'll go away.

</Mina>

[Lost Butterfly]

I'm also starting to think, "Do you think Benmage, Fate, and Furcolow are all town, and not particularly likely to go murderer" should be this game's official litmus test of intelligence and/or innocence.

Wait, what do you think is the correct answer?

I thought the obvious implication was "Yes." I can justify why I think this, if people are interested, but I've already wasted too much breath defending Furcolow.

Do you disagree?

Like I said before, the only caveat is that Benmage might be a cultist gambiting that people will talk him out of the plan or that Fate will be resurrected. It's still not the most likely explanation, though.

~Mina

[Lost Butterfly]

AAAAAAAAAAH!

Sorry for this useless rant, but it's three-thirty in the morning right now, I can't think straight anymore and have to wake up in a few hours, and I've basically wasted my evening writing ginormous cases on people...only to realize halfway in the middle of writing them that I no longer believed that my target was guilty.

This is so demoralizing. I hate my slow and scattered brain. Every time I try to make a point on someone, my mind jumps to a completely unrelated thought about another player.

So my catch up post has devolved from "comment on everything of note in the game and analyze everyone's shift of opinions on Furcolow" to "ask a few relevant questions and comment on the major wagons as well as answer posts directed your way" to "only make cases on kunkstar, xvart, and VP Baltar" to "just get your damn vote on someone already." And now I don't even know who to vote any more!

Aaaaah. Should I even post my case on kunkstar, in which I expressed confidence that he was totally guilty and the difference in play between SAII and here was soooo obvious, but that I now no longer believe in that much because I realize I'd mentally exaggerated the shift in his opinions?

Um...as far as opinions I'm somewhat confident of, Faraday had a town read on SSBF earlier, and now I agree with him. Also, I think Benmage shouldn't go through with his Stalk (because what's the point of killing one player widely read as town just to confirm that another player read as town is really town), and SSBF should probably use his kit on Fate just in case Ben goes rogue, so that the rest of the town can coordinate their own resurrection targets.

Fuck it. I'll post some of what I've got because I'll be pissed if I wrote all that for nothing, but from now on, I'll leave the votes and opinions to Faraday and just stick to asking questions and trying to draw reads.

[Lost Butterfly]

Hi. Faraday is having Internet problems, so you'll be stuck with the Mina head until Tuesday. Since it seems like there's confusion as to who's saying what, I'll start signing my posts from now on just to make it clearer.

Also, it's a sign of how far behind everyone is that no one noticed that I said cases on kunkstar and xvart were coming up but I never delivered. (I decided to "rest a little" at 4 AM...which led to me waking up just in time to miss my bus for work today. I have what I did saved, but I'm too tired to edit it, particularly since I have work

again

tomorrow.)

I'm suspicious of VP Baltar for reasons I'll go into when I'm less sleep deprived, but I'm in total agreement with him on one thing...

How about we all just stop arguing about Fate and Benmage already? What's everyone's obsession with making sure we possibly have ONE more confirmed townie?

This is utterly ridiculous. For example, Feysal, I agree with your last paragraph that the best idea is for Benmage just not to kill (but SSBF to resurrect Fate just in case Ben decides to be an idiot), but what was the point of writing yet

another

giant wall post with no suspects, but lots more "protown" looking theory? rewq, I've just Iso'd you. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE OF YOUR POSTS (with the exception of one line stating you don't get the case on Seacore) is either about Furcolow, set-up discussion, or whether Benmage should kill Fate.

Start finding scum. Now.

Honestly, would people be interested in giant cases from me tomorrow night (I'd saved what I'd written on kunkstar and xvart last night, and there's stuff I'd like to call attention to from other players), or is everyone just overwhelmed by all the wall posting? If it weren't against every fibre of my nature, I'd almost say we should move on with a lynch as quickly as possible just to get a flip and keep the game from stagnating. (If we decide on that route, then I'd direct my attention to players who are being wagoned instead.

Meh. I'd started doubting my xvart case last night, but I need to get over my mortal fear of voting before I'm 100% sure of the evidence.

VOTE: xvart

Oh, and I still haven't ISO'd AurorusVox, but I've been feeling better about AurorusVox and worse about SpyreX as the day has progressed. Plum and Benmage--aka, the people who'd cast doubt on SpyreX--exactly what in particularly bothers? Personally, he looked blindingly town at first, but it seems as though he's forcing his case a bit.

To me, it's not so much that he's suggesting a "protown" plan (too many players are doing it in this game) as gut and meta. Faraday had a town read on SSBF early on (which I'd found weird, considering Faraday had questioned SSBF about that nonsensical post about the Lost Butterfly and Fate and wagon-hopping). As for me, it's his earnestness. SSBF is always a bit overeager and verbose. I was possibly the only player in ACOK Mafia not to instantly see through SK!SSBF, but still, he was scummier than this there (tried to suck up to people, deflect attention away from himself, parrot easy points, etc.). But I'll give scumvart the benefit of the doubt and check if I agree on SSBF's Bowser vote. :p

======================

@ xvart and MoI - What do you think of Lost Butterfly? Do their conflicting posts bother you?

You know, I'm debating how much I should defend against this, because I think I'd be more interested in hearing how xvart and MagnaofIllusion answer when they reread.

I will say that the questions you should be asking should be:

-Does Faraday's 180 on Furcolow OR my consistent defence of Furcolow before and after Faraday's vote have a scum or town motivation? And is either scummy enough to negate the other head's behaviour?
-Is it a significant scumtell that Faraday voted before discussing it with me in the QT or waiting for me to wake up?
-Is it scummy that Faraday didn't think of how it would look for an account to vote for a player it had just defended before (even if new information had come about)?
-Is it scummy that I contradicted him in the thread in order to enforce my own beliefs and/or do damage control?
-What scum agenda would be furthered by our switching back and forth like that within a day?
-Do you think I've secretly been pretending to be Faraday the whole time so as to fool people?

And maybe Faraday should be the one explaining his own thought patterns and motivations.

But just going, "LOL, Lost Butterfly is scum because it's schizo and contradicts itself" is shallow analysis when two people will obviously never have the same opinions 100% of the time.

~Mina

[Lost Butterfly]

EBWOP:

My SSBF comment left out one of the quote's I was responding to:

Believe it or not, I trust noone with a res kit because of a combination of it suggesting cult getting one in the rules, and SA2 fakeclaim of ressing which fucked the town pretty bad.

I'm not saying GOOD players don't res, but sometimes it can backfire! Having a res kit is null, and I've been reading SSBF back and forth personally. I don't have a strong town read on him.

To me, it's not so much that he's suggesting a "protown" plan (too many players are doing it in this game) as gut and meta. Faraday had a town read on SSBF early on (which I'd found weird, considering Faraday had questioned SSBF about that nonsensical post about the Lost Butterfly and Fate and wagon-hopping). As for me, it's his earnestness. SSBF is always a bit overeager and verbose. I was possibly the only player in ACOK Mafia not to instantly see through SK!SSBF, but still, he was scummier than this there (tried to suck up to people, deflect attention away from himself, parrot easy points, etc.). But I'll give scumvart the benefit of the doubt and check if I agree on SSBF's Bowser vote. :p

I should add that I'm leaning town on SSBF, but not certain of it.

~Mina

[Lost Butterfly]

Basically. Excuse making at its finest. "Just because we flop positions to fit the changing of the tides doesn't make us scummy because we're a hydra." ffff

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Lost Butterfly

Except that's not really what happened, is it?

[Lost Butterfly]

The whole paragraph before that quote is also pretty important to the context btw.

[Lost Butterfly]

Your initial impressions didn't really say a lot though, hence the clarification questions, it basically came down to you not being sure and needing to check. Incidentally:

I need to go back and look at Lost Butterfly to see how those contradictory reads actually affect the game and their stances.

Have you done this?

Saying we're fence-sitting doesn't really seem accurate either, since the position was pretty clear, then changed. Flip flopped, definitely but hardly fence sitting.

I don't understand why you see guiding the questions as inherently scummy, yet go on to answer them anyway either.

Except that's not really what happened, is it?

That is exactly what happened: your account flip flopped reads on a lightning rod at the time. I don't think you intended it to occur that way but your defense and guided questions for our consumption and direction is inherently scummy. It's like you got busted for something you don't think you should have been busted for.

VOTE: Lost Butterfly

Except, the 'tide changing' bit is pretty obviously false, so no.


Has Zach posted for the tribolite hydra yet?

[Lost Butterfly]

Oh and yeah, V/la untill tueaday as Mina said.

[Lost Butterfly]

It's very hard for me to concentrate on catching up when I'm boiling with rage right now.

For fuck's sake. I already suspected Baltar and xvart (although I'd be surprised if both were scum based on how xvart followed Baltar onto me), and have had doubts of RC because of how shamelessly he jockeys for influence by kissing up to people, appealing to their past history, and padding his posts with fluffy jokes. (I've been meaning to ask Magna and Plum--both of whom have experience with him but have come to completely opposite reads--for a while if all the obnoxious buddying and joking is in character with ReaperCharlie's town self.) And Furcolow is...Furcolow. (If Furc would like me to respond to his case because it would help him read me, I will, but otherwise....)

But this is what pisses me off:

Lost Butterfly's "ZOMG WHY WOULD SCUMHYDRA DO THIS AND CONTRADICT?" is really scummy in and of itself. Why would a Town Hydra overdefend their contradictions so much?

@rewq: I said it was scummy that she was playing the "WHY WOULD SCUM" dance in RESPONSE to accusations about not acting as one, the initial dissonance was just Anti-Town. And yes it IS blatant wagonning and I warned everyone well in advance I'd be jumping on the largest non-AV wagon I approved of after the next VC.

Where are you getting all this about WIFOM and overdefending? Even though people were calling those contradictions scummy, I

explicitly avoided

defending ourselves in that post, so as to get a better read on xvart and MagnaofIllusion based on how much thought they put into answering Baltar's question.

The point I was making with all those open-ended questions is that

Baltar and ReaperCharlie should look for the scum or town motivations behind our inconsistencies

, instead of being lazy and saying that a hydra that contradicts itself is scum because it is known that Inconsistencies Are Scummy, End of Story. I didn't even go the next step and say, "No, Faraday

didn't

have a scum motivation for behaving the way he did."

But even if I had, you know damn well this is the sneakiest Catch-22 ever.

It's bad enough that now I have to waste time on this when I still haven't ISOd half the popular suspects. Now you're putting me and Faraday in the awkward position of getting wagoned for reasons that I know are crap and that I could easily debunk, but being told that if I defend myself, "Look, she's SCUMMY because she's overdefensive and making excuses for her behaviour!"

That said, I'll take your point on this:

Yeah you're two different people, but you are ONE PLAYER SLOT. If you are a town hydra and want to be successful and not lynched, GET YOUR FUCKING READS TOGETHER BEFORE YOU POST. HAVING TO READ TWO DIFF PLAYERS FOR ONE SLOT IS ABSURD AND ANTI-TOWN.

We've been sharing reads in the QT (and Faraday's vote for Furcolow was really the only time I've been in vehement disagreement with him to the point that I felt the need to put my foot down in the thread), but it's hard to check everything before posting when the game is moving so quickly. I see hydra-ing as more like confirmed masons that chat off-thread and share a vote, and personally find a Robotic and Consistent Amalgam of Two Heads Speaking as One harder to read (since you're trying to read a committee instead of a human being), but that discussion belongs in another thread.

[Lost Butterfly]

Ellibereth, I don't think there's a single person in the game who's familiar enough with all its events to summarize it. Since in my current mood, I'm more susceptible to flattery than usual, I might give a Cliff's Notes version eventually, but first things first.

I side strongly with Furpants (who I now feel strongly is town, although I think his coyness over his suspects is counterproductive) in the Zach-Fur exchange. Trilobite's Seacore vote was terrible, and felt like opportunistic and lazy scum.

Zachrulez, what do you think about xvart, kunkstar, and Baby Spice? Both of them were even

harder

on Furcolow than Seacore was.

Also, you know, what do you think about the players who

didn't

on the wagon? Just one?

I know I said the Furcolow/Benmage/Fate situation was a litmus test of intelligence/innocence...but I'd bet my life that at least three-four scum were smart enough to keep their hands far away. And I wouldn't be all that surprised if Trilobite was one of those scumbags.

Your hydra slot--despite consisting of three strong players--has been lurky, non-confrontational, sheepy, and not contributed a single opinion that wasn't safe and obvious ("Ooh, guys, Furcolow is innocent...for the same reason everyone else has already said!"). And instead of stepping up your game when called on it, you're trying to argue that

playing exactly like scum is protown

because you're selflessly keeping the thread shorter. That's the biggest cop-out ever.

And LOL that the scummy posts are coming from Zach-head. Faraday predicted as much in our QT.

I'm not ready to move my vote just yet, but Trilobite is heading to the top of my list. Need to discuss things with Faraday when he returns.

====================================
Of today's popular non-xvart wagons, it'd probably go Bowser >>>>>>>>>>> Baby Spice >>>>> AurorusVox = Seacore for me.

Bowser is the only one of the four wagons that I don't dislike and would actually feel good about voting. The only thing holding me back is that CSL is capable of looking like obvobvobvscum even as town. He is always inconsistent and sheepy. It's too easy a wagon. But this is bad even for CSL; he hasn't given off a single towntell all game. Besides, he'll be lynched eventually, so today is a good enough time to cull the fat.

I wouldn't be utterly shocked if Baby Spice flipped scum, but she comes across as more of a town paranoid lunatic. Faraday also feels strongly that she's town (because he understands where she's coming from on Furcolow).

I hate how quickly the Seacore wagon has grown. After ISO-reading him, I feel much better about him. I'm not sure if this is enough to satisfy Plum, since this is mostly gut, but he was basically exactly the same as this (earnest, not always the sharpest in his reasoning, saying sloppy stuff that sounds scummy like "Of course, he could be saying this because he has a guilty investigation on me...but he doesn't!") in A Game of Thrones Mafia (and according to Faraday, as in PYP). Seriously, what exactly is the case on him, aside from voting Furcolow (which several other players did)? His playstyle? His most recent defence post also feels sincere. That said, I agree with Furcolow that actual suspects from Seacore would be nice.

(Yes, I know, Furc will now go, "HAHAHAHA, I KNEW YOU GUYS ARE SCUMBUDDIES!" I really couldn't care less.)

I now have a slight town read on AurorusVox after ISO reading him. His big oopsies seem to be that he wasn't willing to instantly clear Furcolow, being wishy-washy on Benmage, and perhaps trying to take too much credit for clearing Furc. Initially, Faraday and I thought SpyreX's case was decent. But since then, I think he's justified his opinions well and been reasonably protown. And if you want me to be honest, I'm pretty sure that people wouldn't have jumped on AV so blindly had it not been the almighty

SpyreX

who'd voted for him.

SpyreX: I'd like to know why you've

only

attacked AurorusVox, but not people whose interactions concerning the Furc/Ben/Fate clusterfuck have been worse IMO (for example, MagnaofIllusion, xvart--other than a throwaway sentence--kunkstar, Baby Spice, rewq, us when Lost Butterfly had voted Furcolow).

Also, what do you think of Trilobite? Because I think Furpants is looking miles better than Trilobite in their exchange...and yet you only seem to mind Furpants.

================================================================

Speaking of which, I realize I never answered this:

I've mostly liked Lost Butterfly's earlier posts, but (i) the vote for Triglav on page 4 came out of nowhere. I asked for clarification on this earlier. (ii) Also, the "bad vibes" from VP Baltar's post is odd - attributed to the smilies, of which he uses one (I get that it's a joke but it's also factually inaccurate!). (iii) His vote on Furc after saying how town he finds him stinks of opportunistic voting. The speed at which he declared it a technical error was astounding

(i) Faraday attributed his Triglav vote to "mostly gut" in the QT, so you'd have to ask him for more detail. I was okay with the vote because I thought Trig's vote on xvart was weak, and because Triglav was lurking and needed some pressure on him to step up their activity.

(ii) I normally don't mention bad gut feelings in the thread, but Faraday seconding me on this gave me confidence to bring it up. And I know this is silly, but ever since

A Clash of Kings

Mafia, I've been paranoid of the smiley. Evil Scumbag Percy wrote lots of long and nicely formatted wall posts that were sooooooo helpful and protown, but occasionally, there was

something

off. And you know what I think that something was. The smiley! There's something insincere about it. (Wait a minute...oh, shit, maybe I shouldn't have given away to the mod one of his own scumtells!) Admittedly, Evil Scumbag Baltar didn't use them in that game.

(iii) By this point, you've probably noticed the whole "Two different heads bicker with each other" thing by now. But see, this is the kind of thing I wish Baltar et al would look at. Whether the vote was opportunistic, not whether two hydra heads disagreeing with each other is inherently scummy.

[Lost Butterfly]

Plum, I understand if you skimmed over my giant walls of doom, but could I get an answer to these:

Oh, and I still haven't ISO'd AurorusVox, but I've been feeling better about AurorusVox and worse about SpyreX as the day has progressed. Plum and Benmage--aka, the people who'd cast doubt on SpyreX--exactly what in particularly bothers? Personally, he looked blindingly town at first, but it seems as though he's forcing his case a bit.

I already suspected Baltar and xvart (although I'd be surprised if both were scum based on how xvart followed Baltar onto me), and have had doubts of RC because of how shamelessly he jockeys for influence by kissing up to people, appealing to their past history, and padding his posts with fluffy jokes. (I've been meaning to ask Magna and Plum--both of whom have experience with him but have come to completely opposite reads--for a while if all the obnoxious buddying and joking is in character with ReaperCharlie's town self.)

[Lost Butterfly]

Fate: I could REALLY argue semantics by saying that I'd left it open for them to

find

a scum motivation if I actually am scum...but I kind of see your point that it's a

quasi

-defence. I still think there's nothing wrong with "defending" the contradiction when people are calling it scummy.

Oh, why not?

VOTE: Bowser

But the irony is that I saw these posts after hitting Preview...when I'd finished writing an

actual

defence. But in my...um, defence (please don't shoot me), these are responses to actual questions directed at my slot:

============================================================

Just noticed that I completely missed everything that happened on the bottom of Page 33. (That was Faraday posting for a stretch.) I have to admit, both VP Baltar and xvart come across as significantly better here--Baltar in particular. Much of my frustration before was because I'd thought Baltar had just left a lazy vote on us for "making excuses for our contradiction" and disappeared.

@xvart: I'm too tired to go through a quote-by-quote rebuttal of your answers to my "leading" questions, but I'll just repeat what I did to Fate: my point wasn't to lead people but to emphasize that you should look at motivations. And to be entirely honest, I got a bit carried away with listing

all

the potential questions I might ask if I were trying to read Lost Butterfly from an outside POV. Maybe it came across as condescending.

So, you're saying I should just take your word for it? Especially after both of you saw how Macavity Lock and I used a fabricated disagreement in aCoK to build momentum as we needed? I'm sorry if I'm slightly skeptical. I went back to reread the post game of aCoK to see if I could catch either of you commenting on that, but I don't think either of you did directly. So let me ask you now, you don't see how it could be perceived as scummy for a hydra to pull a complete 180 on previous statements simply because 'people aren't going to agree 100% of the time'? Having seen me do it as a scum hydra in that game, do you think it's an ineffective tool for the scum to use?

My thoughts at the time actually were that you were being a bit hard-line on the issue, and it depended on the context, but I didn't feel that strongly either way.

I also remember that you'd said in postgame that a hydra that contradicts itself should lynched. In fact, I referenced that quote when unvoting, because I

knew

you'd give us heat for this. So you know, this would be possibly the worst game ever in which to try this stunt.

I absolutely see why it might be perceived as scummy for a hydra to 180 on itself...when it's to further a scum agenda. It was an effective tool in one unusual strategic situation in which you ABSOLUTELY HAD to keep the player that MacavityLock had claimed to suspect alive.

But in this case, it would mean sacrificing our town cred and looking like bickering flip-floppers for a convoluted plan to make one potential D1 mislynch out of twenty-one infinitesimally more viable. Not worth the hassle.

So yes, it's perfectly fair to hold a hydra accountable for a contradiction. I just think it depends on the motivation behind the contradiction, since it's overly idealistic to expect two people to consistently see eye-to-eye on twenty-seven different players. I mean...much of what makes a single player flip-flopping scummy isn't that it's opportunistic, but that it isn't the thought process of someone who is voting for the person he genuinely thinks is scum. That doesn't apply to a hydra.

@LB - do you really feel that there was no shifting momentum toward Furcolow at that time when he shifted to the leading wagon within the next few pages after your vote? I think Faraday was egging him on in his responses and that led to a lot of votes on him at a crucial time. I'm going to read over the entire exchange again, but that's how I felt on my initial read.

I'd say the reason for the shifting momentum was the same reason I put my defence of Furcolow in italics with a disclaimer of "Oh, shit, I really feel he's town, but that looks bad," and Faraday voted him in the first place. Because Percy stated that a player who wasn't in the game couldn't be targeted with a ward, and that sounded like a contradiction. IIRC, a couple of players were swayed by the Faraday-half of Lost Butterfly's arguments. I really can't remember if the bandwagon was still viable when I unvoted.

But to be honest, I don't really feel like rereading our own posts to see if our votes could be coincidentally construed as opportunistic. I think we've both been very genuine in our interactions with Furcolow. If you notice anything you find scummy, point it out, and Faraday and I can clarify our motivations.

[Lost Butterfly]

Catching up/responding to stuff first.

Relevance?

He's the only one on that hydra I can read one way or another (mostly due to lurking as scum), or at least the easiest and only one of their posts before then hadn't been signed so I wanted to know who made it.

So, you're saying I should just take your word for it? Especially after both of you saw how Macavity Lock and I used a fabricated disagreement in aCoK to build momentum as we needed? I'm sorry if I'm slightly skeptical. I went back to reread the post game of aCoK to see if I could catch either of you commenting on that, but I don't think either of you did directly. So let me ask you now, you don't see how it could be perceived as scummy for a hydra to pull a complete 180 on previous statements simply because 'people aren't going to agree 100% of the time'? Having seen me do it as a scum hydra in that game, do you think it's an ineffective tool for the scum to use?

No, you can just read the thread, I think it's pretty obvious that wasn't the case, although I'm a little confused because of, well see below. And I think the circumstances between here and ACOK are very very different, I don't really think a hydra disagreeing is any sort of tell one way or another. And I think if used in the way you used it, it definitely should be ineffective as I don't think most town's would have let you away with what you got away with in ACOK.

@LB - do you really feel that there was no shifting momentum toward Furcolow at that time when he shifted to the leading wagon within the next few pages after your vote? I think Faraday was egging him on in his responses and that led to a lot of votes on him at a crucial time. I'm going to read over the entire exchange again, but that's how I felt on my initial read.

Okay, there was defititely a shit of momentum following the vote, but that was obviously something I wanted. And I was of course egging him on to some degree, I thought he was scum. I don't really see why you think this is a bad thing though anyway.

As I said I was confused becuase initially it read to me like you were saying we voted after the momentum had shifted which I disagreed with, I think our vote was the shift in momentum that the mini wagon got at that stage (baby spice, seacore and maybe someone else follow along then)

Your case on us is lurking and disagreement with xvart post - consider the first (especially with volume of this game) null, and the second we see as us being brilliant and certainly can't understand how suspecting xvart suggests we're scummy - care to enlighten?

Yeah, that was basically it. I don't think lurking is null, even despite the game size, but I'm not really willing to argue since it doesn't change anything. I don't think I ever suggested you were scummy for suspecting xvart, and I think you're not dumb enough to think I thought that either, what I did object to was the reasoning behind the vote which I felt was ridiculous. Making a list is really about as null as it fucking gets.

I am fairly sure Lost Butterfly was seriously just confused that DGB wasn't in El Goosuki

This is true, especially since it stated as such in the sign up thread when they replaced out. (DGB wasn't mentioned as being part of the hydra untill this game commenced to my knowledge)



Fate pretending to be seacore's scumbuddy is stupid, TNM's vote is just as stupid. Especially since Fate acted similar in Of Gods and Men and TNM was in that game. Why do you think Fate's scum here? Oh I see, not really sure what you'd expect to get from it. It's also really not reasonabl to suggest it's a slip at all, you'd have to be pretty clinically retarded to do that.


Lemon aka AV's attempts to link us to El goosuki are actually really absurd. The summary one in particular seems to be stretching beyong all reason. And if you read post game of ACOK you'll actually see Drippereth (who are now el goosuki) don't actually consider it a town tell (well they do it all the time).
Also 'you're a dead weight for town' is weird. Why say that to someone you think is scum?

SSBF replacing out in the manner he did means he's town too.

The deflection allegation is stupid, just because I'm being attacked doesn't mean I'll stop scumhunting. Oh and I'd totally forgotten about the sottyrulez hydra actually so I guess that rules out that line of enquiry for the moment.

I'm pretty up to date now.

[Lost Butterfly]

Page 1 or so, IIRC. OKAY?

[Lost Butterfly]

Your case on us is lurking and disagreement with xvart post - consider the first (especially with volume of this game) null, and the second we see as us being brilliant and certainly can't understand how suspecting xvart suggests we're scummy - care to enlighten?
[/quote]
Yeah, that was basically it. I don't think lurking is null, even despite the game size, but I'm not really willing to argue since it doesn't change anything. I don't think I ever suggested you were scummy for suspecting xvart, and I think you're not dumb enough to think I thought that either, what I did object to was the reasoning behind the vote which I felt was ridiculous. Making a list is really about as null as it fucking gets.
[/quote]
Actually seems like I took you too literally. I thought you meant suspecting xvart at any time would make you scummy, when it was obviously the reasons which I found scummy.

[Lost Butterfly]

It is clear that while Faraday may not have discussed with you the actual vote, your second quote here suggests that you had made it clear in the QT where you stood on Furcolow. In addition, you were awake when he posted the vote, because you posted immediately before (10/21 5:15am) and after (10/21 6:12am) his vote (10/21 6:08am). So not only were you questions leading but misleading.

So like I said, I don't think you or Faraday did it maliciously or were trying to game the system; but instead caught some heat and then your response was super scummy, and apparently fabricated to some degree. Busted for something you don't think was scummy comes to mind.

Mina - you never answered why you asked Zach if he had posted yet in his hydra account? Why did you want to know? He has since posted so...

Actually that was me with the post after. And that was me that mentioned the zach thing too. I guess I should start signing my posts, sorry i thought the difference was kinda obvious.

[Lost Butterfly]

Oh god that was me aka Faraday I meant.

[Lost Butterfly]

this vote is more because of me accusing you after percy's post, mina.
Faraday is going to be so fucking pissed at you for associating yourself to seacore, and baby spice is so scum-VI he reminds me of vezokpiraka

That was Faraday. I can't see any reason for Percy not to get back to you. I realise what you're saying about DGB being in the game, that's mostly irrelevant though as far as I can see.

This one? That was me.

- Faraday.

[Lost Butterfly]

I've been chatting with Faraday on Yahoo! while I catch up with another game, and have been trying REALLY hard not to respond to anything here (even though my blood pressure has been continuously rising with every post I see today), so I'll save reads and answers for later...

But I swear. This is turning into a Three's Company episode.

For future reference:

1) I never leave my Is uncapitalized.

2)

That was Faraday. I can't see any reason for Percy not to get back to you. I

realise

what you're saying about DGB being in the game, that's mostly irrelevant though as far as I can see.

It's a bit unclear because he referred to himself in the third person, but note that "realise" is spelled with an s. That's Irish/UK spelling. I'm Canadian (so I'd say "-our" instead of "-or," but "-ize" instead of "-ise."

Carry on.

~Mina

~as in, not Faraday

~as in, not the person who has been posting all day and who has meta experience with Zachrulez

[Lost Butterfly]

I have to post from a phone tonight, so I can't make any huge cases or defended with lots of quotes, but just a response to this:

How many times has Reaper said "I LOVE THIS POST" to people? I bet every single one (sans one or two, NOPOINT'S in particular felt forced as NOPOINT didn't really make ag reat first impression) of his early ones are CONFTOWN on a ReaperScumFlip.

"BOKU WO MITE BOKU WO MITE. IM BUDDYING UP TO EVERYONE WITH <3 HOW COULD I POSSIBLY BE SCUM?"-Reaper.

<3 <3 <3

Which was why I keep asking people if it's in character for him as town to shamelessly kiss up to people and make terrible cases, and no one ever answered me! (Faraday thinks he's always a bit dense and obnoxious.)

Omigod. I am so tempted by the ReaperCharlie wagon (and infinitely prefer it to a Seacore wagon). But I have to be entirely honest. If I voted for him, it would really only be because I hate his guts and every post he's written so far has made me want to fly into a murderous rage. My sanity would improve with him out of the game. I actually got town vibes from his post asking us to listen to his suspects, even though I disagree with almost every single one of his reads.

What's the cult slip, anyway? I missed it.
For the record, I've changed my rankings from before over the last few days:

Bowser>Baby Spice = AurorusVox>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Seacore

I'm quite confident that Seacore is town. He's almost up there with Fate and Furcolow. And I hated nopointinactingup's first post, but I agree with Faraday that SSBF's last post before replacing out (with how he volunteered his last reads) looked very townish, so our read on the slot is town.

I've flipped on AV because he just KEEPS ON TRYING to take singlehanded credit for being THE VERY FIRST to say Furcolow was town...no, to give REASONS for why he's town...scratch that, to GIVE GOOD REASONS for why he's town. (Actually, I was the very first person in the game to say that Furcolow was confirmed town. I totally want town cred for that, even though our vote was on him at one point.) Also, I found his attack on Seacore opportunistic and forced. I thought Seacore's reasons for not voting and doubting his reads on me and Baby Spice came across as very honest, and it's so easy to pseudo-scumhunt by attacking something like that.

As for Baby Spice, I think someone mentioned this already, but I didn't like how she suddenly came to the conclusion that Furcolow was a VI after thirty pages, once the wagon on him had fizzled.

[Lost Butterfly]

Maybe I should add that something affecting my read on AurorusVox is that I doubt he's SpyreX's scumbuddy, and SpyreX has felt a little off this game.

Also, AV unvoting Seacore did make me feel slightly better about him.

[Lost Butterfly]

Oh, and I should add to my BS point that it should have been obvious on

page one

that Furcolow was a VI. I doubt that one throwaway quote in which he said something stupid should have made her opinion flip on a dime like that.

EBWOPreview: Seacore, I miss SSBF, but I'm glad npau replaced into his slot and not someone unreadable's, because then I'd have thought he was scum. Faraday and I have had a mixed read on ReaperCharlie all game. Honestly, I'm in agreement that much of what RC's been arguing is crap and that he's ignored or deflected questions to him with lame jokes and snide comments. My only doubt is that I can sadly believe he'd act like this as town just because his head was so far up his ass that he doesn't want to admit that he's wrong. He came comes across as very seat-of-his-pants.

His last couple of posts (ignoring your case and posting OBVSCUM, trying to defnd himself by saying HE TRUSTED FURCOLOW) were horrible, though. I'll discuss RC with Faraday tomorrow to see what he thinks.

Magna, since you're here, you never addressed my question about RC as town. You've pointed out lots of instances in which he buddies, but does he buddy and jockey for favour like this all the time? It would help me read him.

Also, are you saying that you still have a scumread on Seacore, and that you found nothing townish-looking in RC's ISO? Because I remember you doing the same thing in ACoK Mafia (reading someone in ISO and making every single post sound like a scumtell).

Oh, and almost forgot to sign my posts.

~Mina

[Lost Butterfly]

If you DID listen to me when I told you what to talk about you wouldn't have this damn wagon on you in THE FIRST PLACE.

GAWD.

Re: Seacore saying that he is looking for potential murderers+Cult

^^This is not a plan Cult would outright admit to. Its too bold and unpopular, "yeah I'm looking for scummy players, whether that means Cult or potential murderer I don't care." ITS NOT A SCUM MOVE.

Yeah, this is definitely something I'm in full agreement with, add to the fact he hasn't backed down about it when questioned (or has mentioned it a few times seperately) means the seacore wagon is more obviously terrible at this point in the game than it has been in the past. Not impressed with the fact that people are still voting him either.

I'm not really sure I buy this; which post of Trilobite are you referring to? They all are signed in the day leading up to your comment. This looked like a deflection in trying to get some hydra support since someone hadn't posted yet. In the context of that post, it seemed relevant to the hydra discussion and not to trying to read out a possible scum lurker.

The one that isn't signed, mebbe 3 in the hydra's history iirc. It's not deflection, which is a horrible argument by itself as you can basically scream that everytime someone under attack does anything. I'd also totally forgotten the sottyrulez portion of the hydras earlier posting, and I think it's relatively(?) well know zach dislikes scum and lurks when scum for the most part.

Also, all the arguments just seem a little out of place or off; like Faraday talking in third person? These responses just don't plausibly sit well with me as all being legitimate; but I recognize that it is circumstantial at best now.

Is this STILL talking about the fact you think Mina posted that despite it being really, really fucking obvious that wasn't the case? I mean it's paranoid to the point of tinfoil hat wearer when going outside and our responses aren't plausible?? Unless you believe Mina happened to come back and post a 1 liner after saying she's going to bed, and then post nothing else for no apparent reason, . The timestamps match my posting patterns, the spelling matches my spelling (or well the british version of it) but yeah, hardly plausible.

-guessfuckingwho.

[Lost Butterfly]

fucking fuck. will post later when i'm less pissed off.

I don't really like the RC wagon I don't think he's scum. I think he's played really poorly, his defense has been terrible obnoxious and irritating but I don't get a feeling like he's going to flip scum.

[Lost Butterfly]

Okay, there's less than 5 days left. Anybody coming on and posting "I don't like the RC wagon" isn't good enough.

You must make a case on somebody else. Preferably xvart or myself. (Preferably not myself).

Anybody who just turns up and just says "The RC wagon looks bad, I'm not convinced" is not being pro-town.

You've got me here.

I had started an impassioned wall post on Thursday night, saying that this was turning into a dogpile, that everyone's tunnel vision was feeding on itself, that every fibre of me felt that it was going to be a mislynch, yadda yadda. Then I had to get off the computer unexpectedly, and lost the post. But right now, with twelve votes on ReaperCharlie two days before, you're right that anything I post in his defence is somewhat self-serving...because the truth is that I don't have a firm direction elsewhere. With twenty-eight players, I'm having trouble deciding where to focus and apply pressure.

But like Faraday, I'm baffled by all the people saying that he's started looking scummier while under pressure. To me, it's the very opposite. Yes, his "Why would I defend Furcolow were I scum?" is ridiculous. But this really does not feel like scum flailing. I'm actually in agreement with DGB that his frustration looks very townish. I can give quotes to show what I mean if someone wants.

Admittedly, I haven't got a chance to check RC's meta. Purely by skimming the beginning of Harry Potter, I got the feeling that he was more calculated and meeker and more wishy-washy there.

But also, I get the feeling that certain people are confusing "erratic" behaviour with scummy behaviour. I think it's much scummier to avoid making waves and stay under the radar and post nothing but safe set-up speculation and Iteration #4343 of "Fate is town" than to be a raving loony. To be entirely honest, it was really starting to get to me a couple of days ago when some players were nitpicking over every sentence I made and others were just ignoring everything I said and going, "Lost Butterfly is OBVSCUM! LYNCH THEM!" If I were under as much pressure as ReaperCharlie is now, I'd probably be incoherent rage.

What I can do is spend the next few days spamming the thread with my opinions on other players. I think both xvart and Magna would be more useful to the town than RC if they're

town

, but I think both are more likely to flip scum than ReaperCharlie. I can post huge walls on either with actual quotes, but general summaries of my reasons for suspecting both:

1) xvart's jump onto RC (who should have been one of his allies against us, his top suspect) looked opportunistic as hell. I think him doubling up a ward is a nulltell, even though ReaperCharlie/El Goosuki/Baby Spice are raving about him being confirmed scum for it, but something seems fishy about his claiming not to have noticed all the discussion on warding. I also thought some of his points against Furc and me throughout the game felt false (admittedly, I think OMGUS has somewhat coloured my opinions of VP Baltar, xvart, and Trilobite this game, although they'd rung bells before they attacked us).

xvart, I'd like an answer. What exactly makes you think that Furcolow is significantly more likely to go murderer than anyone else? Do you deny that there was a lot of discussion on the merits of ward claiming before your first post (in fact, it was a huge bulk of the first page)? Also, do you still suspect Furcolow?

2) My read on Magna has been a rollercoaster this game. (I oscillate every couple of days in the QT between "OMG MAGNA IS SO TOWN" and "LYNCH THAT SCUMMY BASTARD!") But although Furc's point about Magna's post percentage was ridiculous, I've REALLY hated how Magna has been playing recently. I see what VV is trying to say about Magna's meta, even though he can't out-debate Magna. This is something that would probably best be illustrated by a huge list of quotes, but lately, Magna's attacks are feeling close to his scum play (taking actions out of context and spinning them as "textbook" scumtells, hammering people to death over minutiae, making passive-aggressive comments that seem like attempts to discredit people or score easy digs rather than genuinely shine a light on scummy behaviour). And this is more circumstantial, but some of his interaction with Fate feels like he's trying to get him on his good side.

Maybe it's just because I think virtually everyone he's attacked all game (Furcolow, Seacore, Furpants, VasudeVa, ReaperCharlie to a lesser extent) is town. But I've learned my lesson from the last time he was scum. If I think Magna is spewing crap, don't give him the benefit of the doubt just because he's acting confident in the crap he's spewing.

Magna, do you believe that VasudeVa is scum? You seem to be devoting a lot of effort to making him look bad and calling him an idiot for his play in other games. But do you believe he's scum, or misguided?

========================================================
Would anyone like me to make a case on kunkstar? I'd written something up on him a while back because I hated his stances on Furcolow all game, as well as his sheeping of xvart's idea to waste a commune on Furcolow. But then I got distracted, and finally I lost confidence in my suspicions.

I have stuff on Baltar and Trilobite, but I'll save it for another post.

I'm torn on Feysal, but I'm not crazy about his stance on RC. This in particular I hated:

I get what you mean. In my first game ever, a player decided to fake a post restriction, which he used as an excuse to insult everyone in his posts. I ended up leading the wagon on him, and he turned out to be the town bus driver. But, he was turning the game into a flame war, so I've never regretted that mislynch.

Not that I would imply the situation with ReaperCharlie was anywhere close, just that I understand why you might want him out.

It felt like he was egging me on. It's not the first time I've noticed Feysal subtly buddying up to people/defending them from weak points.

Yes, this is good enough for me. Maybe you are flailing scum, maybe just a frustrated townie, RC, but casting suspicions at those voting you and dismissing their concerns as invalid is not the right way to defend yourself.

Hey, Magna, why did you comment on Furpants_Tom's waffling over RC, but not Feysal's? What do you think of Feysal? Of kunkstar, too, while I'm at it?

I'll probably move my vote to either xvart or Magna after some discussion with Faraday, since I don't think another wagon is viable. But in the meantime...I'd like to try something.

Since Bowser has replaced out, there's no point leaving my vote on him. Read manho's ISO. Go on. Read it.

VOTE: manho

I'm not optimistic that this will succeed, but last minute lurker wagon, go go go!

====================================
Also, on the off-chance we're killed by the ritual (as opposed to murdered) tonight, might as well come out with someone.

There is a very, very high chance that at least one of the cultists is in {MagnaofIllusion, xvart, VP Baltar, Seacore, El Goosuki}. Otherwise, Faraday and I aren't the most likely Craft Fetish targets.

Oddly, I'm more suspicious of the first three, even though the latter two have been far sloppier in their play.

I might just be too egotistical in this opinion, and neglecting the people who've had experience with Faraday. So this isn't 100% conclusive.

But it's interesting that EVERY SINGLE person who was involved in ACOK Mafia heard noise (although in two cases, they were warded).

I was immediately suspicious of Magna when I heard noise, because I get the feeling that he considers me more of a threat than, say, VP does (who I suspect thinks I'm a stark raving lunatic). But in a few days, if most of the people in that category flip town, this might be a sign that one of the survivors is scum.

[Lost Butterfly]

*************** In case RC is lynched before I can catch-up, I just wanna say the most protown move for someone not sure what to do tonight would be to ward me.

You have nerve. You really have fucking nerve.

Benmage, I want you to post this, in big bold letters.

I, Benmage, solemnly swear that I will not murder Fate tonight. Doing so when I'm not even in danger of a lynch just to "confirm myself" and when Fate is almost guaranteed to be nightkilled eventually if you just leave him alone would be the utmost stupidity. And since I think I'm a genius and better at Mafia than everyone, I would NEVER do something that stupid. Or else Mina will murder me...either in this game (using the weak justification that she was TOTALLY sure I'd go murderer, and also, she wanted to confirm herself, HONEST!), or

outside

the game.

Everyone and their mothers thinks that Fate is obvtown. I've got a TEN times better idea than claiming to nobly go through with the kill for the sake of confirming yourself. Why don't you treat the Fate stalk as a sunken cost, and then confirm yourself by stalking someone who's actually

scummy

tonight? What, you can't wait a whole extra day N2 to confirm yourself?

It would also show that you're serious about not wanting to go murderer, because you're increasing the number of nights it would take you to reach the three-murders win condition.

Also, do you suspect Magna? What's your point that scum post less? I mean...it's pretty obvious that Furcolow's statistics were not the most scientific. I actually think Magna defended himself well against it. You're latching onto the weakest part of the case against Magna.

[Lost Butterfly]

I don't see much scum motivation in taking the occult book (

fake

-claiming it, maybe).

I think Fate is almost certainly going to be nightkilled eventually because he's a very active and vocal leader and everyone thinks he's town. Scum usually don't let those players survive to LYLO.

I don't really think you're scum (although I suspect you more than I do Fate), and this wagon on you seems like one of Fate's more...um, whimsical ideas, but I can see town reasons behind it. I'm waiting on Fate to explain himself.

Benmage, I do think you can be a good scumhunter. But this game, you haven't been showing it. It seems as thought either you're completely and irrationally tunnel-visioned, or as though you just want Fate out of the game and are twisting the facts so that you can justify yourself to us. Or scum, of course.

In fact, Benmage, who ARE your suspects right now? I'm not even sure anymore.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on your posting that statement above in bold. As well as your answering my question about Magna. All your rhetorical questions aren't changing that you haven't disputed my arguments for why you shouldn't go through with this.

Seriously, JUST STALK SOMEONE ELSE TONIGHT if you want to confirm yourself. It's win-win.

I hope this is just some weak AtE Mina. Cause I kinda like you. As long as you continue to shape into a good mafia player. Doing something like that would be pretty lame.

How do you know I'm not Faraday, being uncharacteristically verbose and rambling?

Thanks...but wait. You ACTUALLY thought that I was going to literally look up your address, fly over to wherever it is you live, and shoot you in the head? As in, I meant that as an entirely serious threat?

Obviously, I was being melodramatic. It doesn't change the fact that I WILL BE LIVID IF YOU KILL FATE TONIGHT. FOAMING AT THE MOUTH. HEADS WILL ROLL (METAPHORICALLY). So if you like me, DON'T DO IT!

Won't have time for commenting on Baltar and Trilobite tonight. Dammit.

[Lost Butterfly]

Since Bowser has replaced out, there's no point leaving my vote on him. Read manho's ISO. Go on. Read it.

VOTE: manho

I'm not optimistic that this will succeed, but last minute lurker wagon, go go go!

You can be better than this. Did you read wingless, who manho replaced. Forensic tools. The replace out read town to me.

This slot will not be lynched today.

Shh, you're not supposed to TELL him that! I'm TRYING to accomplish something, here.

I did read Wingless, and saw his replace out as null (scum and town can be overwhelmed by the content--in my experience, more so the former). Good point that his spontaneous Forensic Tools claim is a slight towntell from a weaker/n00bish player (although it might have been faked). Hmm....

But why do you think Fate claiming Occult Books is scummier than Wingless claiming Forensic Tools.

[Lost Butterfly]

xvart, um...you realize that we wouldn't be discussing reads in a Cult QT anyway, right? Because we'd already know that ReaperCharlie is town?

But even leaving that aside, look at all these statements:

RC is totally 100% pure town.

ReaperCharlie is town. I insist.

[quote="El Goosuki (albeit the Elli head)]
I never played with him before...
And comments like that wristing thing just now look so town >.>[/quote]

RC is total town.

This is a scum-driven wagon.

Unless you're trying to argue that we're communicating outside the thread because she didn't use the word "frustration" when calling frustrated comments by RC townish, please read the thread before trying to score an easy point.

[Lost Butterfly]

One last post, and then I'm off for the night. Benmage, I was referring to this question:

Also, do you suspect Magna? What's your point that scum post less? I mean...it's pretty obvious that Furcolow's statistics were not the most scientific. I actually think Magna defended himself well against it. You're latching onto the weakest part of the case against Magna.

Do I really have to write a defence of Fate showing why he looks obviously town? But regardless of what you think of Fate's playstyle, Fate will almost certainly be nightkilled before long. Just suck it up and wait until then to be the very best Benmage you can be.

I'm also having trouble keeping up with this game and getting good reads, but I personally think your plan is irrational and counterproductive. So does everyone else in this game. If you choose to stubbornly go through with it even though it will result in more insanities and blood spread around and a net loss for the town, just because you PERSONALLY are not fond of Fate, then I would suggest to the town that at least one person uses a resurrection kit on Fate tonight, so as to deter you.

What about my point that people will suspect you of going murderer if you kill Fate tonight? That completely negates your confirmation plan. So it's better to wait at least one night before killing, as a show of good faith.

[Lost Butterfly]

Because ScumDGB would never say in a Scum QT "LULZ @ REAPER, THE OBV TOWN DUE TO FRUSTRATION." And scum never talk about town people and why they look town to them to either exploit or garner support for some scum initiative?

In addition, your slot has never said the Reaper looked frustrated, so how can you apply that town motivation to him and to DGB's town read? How do you know that DBG isn't just pulling another blue sky read and there is actually some unmentioned and undescribed reasoning behind the town read?

None of DGB's post have given any indication of reasoning behind her RC read; and

the most concerning part is that you applied a motivation behind a read that neither you nor DGB ever said in the thread.

I honestly don't think I have the political clout to get you lynched today, but if there is enough interest the only person I am willing to lynch besides RC is you.

xvart.

this is awfully bad posting right here.

[Lost Butterfly]

Manho's still being FUCKING useless I see. Wraith's not doing a whole lot better with a horribad vote.

Wicked's latest rubs me the wrong way, get the impression he's just skimming for stuff to agree with on the reaper thing, also seacore's pretty fucking town.

[Lost Butterfly]

After reading the inital reasons for the wagon on RC I'm 50/50 as to whether he is scum or just lazy town making himself an easy target.

50/50 is pretty decent odds, you know. You have better odds on anyone else, or what?

Are you trying to egg him on to vote Reaper here or what?

[Lost Butterfly]

So glad we died >_>

Our reads weren't bad though actually but still 221 pages. Ehhh.

[Lost Butterfly]

Triglav I kept getting confused with Trilobite. I still don't know which one was scum and which one was town...>_>"

Also this, I'm pretty sure I got them confused more than once on day 1 but I thought at least one of them was scum >_>

[Lost Butterfly]

We're all here. Waiting.