Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[xvart]

Vote: Blackberry

Lying to your husband... Lynch all Liars!

xvart.

[xvart]

StrangerCoug - I'm flattered! lol.

Blackberry - I think it can go either way; but I think more often than not aggressive behavior is more just simply personality. I also know that sometimes anger can be more indicative of contrasting personalities, regardless of alignment, which will never mesh.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm going to go ahead and unvote because I don't really see this as a legitimate wagon. I'm not reading the pity party or sucking up or how others view him impression that others do. The fact that others are jumping on board Raivann's joke vote is mildly concerning. Fishy agrees with Raivaan and tries to present Raivaan's vote as more than I think it is. Had Raivaan said that the sucking up was based on anything other than smilies I might think otherwise; but even then I think it would be a stretch. Fishy looks way too opportunistic here. Perhaps Raivaan can clear up the seriousness of his vote?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fishy

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart- I didn't vote Blackberry I FoS'ed him.

You're right; but my point is still valid regardless.

I'm not saying the actual smilies themselves would be a concious scum tactic. Rather, worrying about how people see you would lead to an ingratiating post style, as you tried to make people like you.

I really don't read BB's post that way; I mean there are a couple parts that might seem a little AtEish but nothing substantial. That's why I think this whole debate is somewhat concocted.

xvart.

[xvart]

@Mitsuru: Yes, we're overreacting a little bit. It's better than under-reacting.

Who are you referring to when you say "we're"?

@xvart: when posting early in the game, I endeavour not to random vote. That means I'm looking for any tell of any magnitude to vote on. If the result sometimes looks "somewhat concocted", that's no great surprise to me. By the way, what do you mean when you call my vote "opportunistic", in the context of it being the second vote on a wagon, with the first being random?

So... do you think that trying to be liked is not a strong scumtell? Which is scummier: concocting cases or trying to be liked? And maybe opportunistic wasn't the right word, but I see your vote as trying to initiate a wagon for something that isn't there. I meant that there was a opportunity to make someone scummy available (even with weak justification) and you jumped on it. What has been the benefit to creating weak cases to avoid random voting in the past? How has this helped the town in your other games?

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

What was the slip?

I want to see how you react to this. You've done something that raises a red flag to me (I'm not revealing what it is - because it is a tell that I think is more accurate than a lot of other tells, and by revealing it - it prevents mafia from doing that tell in the future).

Awesome. Super secret scumtells. Can't wait for this to go nowhere.

My read on Jack's starting to go sour...

My read on Jack is starting to go up.

Anon - I'll answer you once llama answers my question above.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry everyone. Have been super busy with doctor's appointments and work. I'll read through the contributions and have something tonight or tomorrow.

I'll also need some V/LA coming up as I am having surgery a week from today.

V/LA: 7/10 - 7/13

(variable depending on how doped up I get on painkillers).

xvart.

[xvart]

I think that trying to be liked is a weak scumtell.
I don't really know what you mean by "concocting cases". I think it's far too broad a phrase for me to answer that question meaningfully. IMO, making a weak case in the RVS isn't scummy at all;

making a case based on a nulltell in order to vote on a big bandwagon is far scummier

than trying to be liked.
Creating weak cases (but still based on scumtells of some magnitude) to avoid the RVS is far better at provoking discussion and reaction than the RVS in my experience. I've done this a lot in my games (probably more the more recently you look), and I think it makes the start of the game go faster and more productively. I don't have specific cases up my sleeve for how it's affected the rest of the day or game; I suggest you look into my history if you want to. I can't see why it would be better to cast a random vote than a not-quite-random vote.

Bolded emphasis mine.

I agree that trying to be liked is a slight scumtell; however, I don't think a good barometer of wanting to be liked is smiley frequency. Regarding the "concocted-ness" of your early game case, you gave me the impression that you don't like to random vote so you extend the parameters for a solid case to be more loose, so your vote isn't simply random. You said you weren't surprised that someone might think your vote was concocted (maybe contrived is a better word?). The bolded above is exactly why I voted for you in the first place; you created a case that was based on a nulltell (in my opinion, as described above).

Unvote

Budja

- in all your other games you are prone to making smiley faces quite often, yet you haven't made a single one this game (however, you've done this as mafia as well in the past, so I can't really make anything of it except you lost your emotions ) - and the thing that yall refer to as a "secret scumtell" Budja has done in the past as a town. However, I still want you to give more of yourself. Something about you makes me think you are mafia.

Dudes; I swear to god if there is more of this smiley face indicates such and such alignment I'm going to lose it. And talking about smiley face meta? Seriously?

POROCHAZ:

Is it possible to get Jack replaced on the fact he isn't being cooperative, and being uncooperative works against one's win condition either way, thus, he is not playing by the rules and working towards his win condition.

Do you really think Prozac is going to force replace someone under those conditions you describe? I think this is ludacris and I don't believe your intentions are genuine as described.

Vote: Blackberry

Yes and No

My strategy was make myself vulnerable, see who attacks me as an "easy target" and make judgments from there. Although I think I did accomplish making me look vulnerable, no one actually attacked me for what I expected them to attack me for (the non-conforming thing).

I did not set a deliberate of a trap as I have in the past (I would refer to it as a reaction test, trap makes it sound like it is only meant for mafia, where in this case, it is meant to see who will jump the gun early enough and make accusations, who I suspect would be mafia).

Did you expect anyone in particular to attack you or just scum in general? Can you point me to a completed game where you set a trap? Please link directly to the post where you set the trap and then where you exposed the results of your trap.

Jack can be annoying but annoying != scummy. Bad vote.

In the few games I've played with Jack I've found the more annoying Jack is the more town he is likely to be.

you really think people are that stupid, jack?

Some of them.

@Jack - who do you think is that stupid?

xvart.

[xvart]

I was just starting to miss Xvart. I take it you got good meds?

Glad I was missed. The meds are pretty mild but after Tuesday I'll have some good stuff.

A question to everyone in this thread: Do you believe Jack's claim?

Nope.

-- This was my drunk intuitive read. Don't know where it's going. After briefly skimming, just looking at the usernames and posts I SEE either town (faded) or MAFIA (bold). I'll re-examine it when I am sober.

What was the point of this little exercise? Especially considering you're voting for someone you called town?

Why did BB publicly ask in the thread for Jack's replacement, and not in a PM? What would he gain by publicizing that request?

Because he wants to appear to be looking out for the town's best interest by asking for something he knows won't happen.

Why don't you think my intentions are genuine? And yes, I think I had a shot at convincing the moderator to do something that most would see as "impossible".

In my last game I convinced the moderator to reveal that the person I replaced was inactive during the night

. Which nobody thought I was going to be able to do.

Well good for you on your last game. Your suggestion to have him forced replaced was unfounded and would never have happened. By your reference to your last game you know that it was something that was not going to go well.

Unvote, Vote: Anon

in a hurry, but I saw my vote was still on Jack and wanted to change. Will relook at this later.

Hm? Why did you

want

to change? You keep making all these references, super secret scum tells, and alleged drunk observations to appear to be scumhunting, but it just looks like you are trying to be active without actually saying anything of importance. Why are you not voting for Budja anymore? Did your super secret scumtell get overridden by a super secret town tell?

Also, your reference to the on going game as trap setting is irrelevant and unprovable. I would suggest not following this train of thought.

xvart.

[xvart]

That still screams pressure vote in my opinion. Jack's attitude in this game certainly hasn't helped this cause either.

I agree, very scummy to try and get information out of unresponsive and unhelpful players.

Italicized emphasis mine. Flameaxe - what do you mean it is scummy to try and get information out of nonresponsive and unhelpful people? How is that scum motivated?

Given that the majority of his case is referring to the secret tell and the trap, I've already touched on both of them in previous posts.

You have? I saw a passing comment about the secret scum tell and nothing about the trap.

Can we PLEASE lynch him? He's too much of a wildcard to have around and he will give scum the win at lylo, if he isn't scum.

Begging for a lynch? Why are you absolutely certain that Jack will lose the game at LYLO if he is town?

xvart.

[xvart]

Alrighty; the time has come. I'm having reconstructive surgery on my shoulder tomorrow morning. I will more than likely not be able to post at all tomorrow, and depending on the pain meds and how the surgery goes I might not be able to make a quality post for a couple days after.

V/LA: August 10 - August 13

I'll try and get a final post in tonight but I wanted to get this done now just in case.

xvart.

[xvart]

typing one handed sucks, as does quoting and such so pardon the messy presentation.

I like Xvart's case on BB, but my gut is saying BB is town. At any rate, it's the 'best' one so far other than FA's.

what FA case? a case on him? or a case by him?

Well good for you on your last game. Your suggestion to have him forced replaced was unfounded and would never have happened. By your reference to your last game you know that it was something that was not going to go well.

Ummm, it did go well, I got what I wanted.

alleged drunk observations

Does alleged indicate you think I was faking drunk? I think that sounds really stupid. If anything I was either drunk and a mafia pretend to hunt, or I am drunk and a townsperson thinking I am seeing things. What purpose does it serve someone to pretend to be drunk?

Also, your reference to the on going game as trap setting is irrelevant and unprovable. I would suggest not following this train of thought.

This does not seem like something a town would say who is trying to figure out the facts and previous history.

re: alleged drunk obs - what i meant was all of your observations/"cases"/votes always have some quantifier like being drunk, "wanting" to change votes for some unknown reason, super secret scumtells that always work, etc. Youe votes and cases are justified by nonsense.
re: something town would say - you are trying to validate a behavior based on an on going game in which you haven't even flipped, how am i supposed to judge that? i don't want a response because i don't want you commenting on an on going game any more than you have.

you also truncated the part of my quote asking about your budja vote. i'm sure this was intentional because you don't want to say your super accurate secret scumtell was bogus to begin with; but i'll pretend for a moment that it was an accident you cut that part out of the quote.

@flameaxe, 390 - pbpa mean little to me. i could do a pbpa of anyone and make them look scummy. fake scumhunting maybe?

@llama, 407 second line - what post are you referring?

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart:

I'm sorry they don't mean much to you. However, I find them to be incredibly useful, not only for my own understanding of the game, but I find them to be a great way to get a point across and back it up. This is what I did in my post. Sorry if I sound arrogant here, but did you read the entire post? Do you have anything to comment on besides the fact that it is a pbpa? I personally do not feel I can make a pbpa of every person in this game and make it look scummy, and I find it hard to believe the same could be said for you.

I don't think you're arrogant at all. And yes, I did read it. I personally find more consolidated summary posts more effective at conveying scumminess. My problem about pbpa, especially in cases of players already in the spotlight, is that it is a lot of typing when a summary would do just the same. Even adding in that "x number of posts were useless or had nothing to comment on" to convey that the person in question isn't really contributing.

Yeah, super secret scumtells are annoying. I'm just going to accept it as a reason for BB's vote, but I'm certainly not going to follow it. IMO it's possible for it to be genuine, so I'm just ignoring it as a tell for now. As for the rest of it, it's not quite true. I do believe BB has had a good point or two. His votes and cases are only justified by nonsense twice, and once it was completely obvious that it was nonsense, he even admitted it in the post. Are you really suggesting he thought that BB believed his drunk intuition to be reliable?

1. I'm not really dissing "super secret tells" (although I find them highly annoying) but I'm mostly curious as to what overrode the self described "more accurate than most" tell and (I missed this post in my recent musings) but apparently the secret scumtell was negated because the highly accurate tell is something Budja has done as town. And since now the "more accurate than most" scumtells tell is something town does, I see no reason for him to keep it a secret any longer. BB even admitted that he has committed his highly accurate scumtell as town... Now can anyone really say that a vote based off of a scumtell that is more accurate than most scumtells is a seriously considered vote when the accuser has committed the same tell as town? I feel that his nearly all of his votes have been crappily justified under an illusion of scumhunting.

As a side note, his change to Anon because he felt like he needed to change (with a point to relook at it later) was never followed up on or given a second thought. BB - why did you choose Anon when you removed your vote from Jack, and what did you learn that you never commented on that prompted you to move your vote off of Anon? You had your vote there for six days with no follow up, so there must have been something?

The point I'm trying to make, llama, is one of the biggest scum identifiers is voting history/justification. Scum can make decent points a time or two (and even more often in a lot of cases) but the one thing that remains is voting history and public justifications.

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart, you've stated you dislike Blackberry's secret scumtell play, but do you think this makes him more scummy than before?

Yes, obviously. The secret scumtell is just a piece of the having no legitimate or sound votes.

Vote 1

, 27: mallowgeno - for not answering a question; wants to see what he says;

Vote 2

, 84 - votes Budja for secret, more reliable than most scumtells, tell; later retracted because he discovered the Budja committed this tell as both town and scum, and possibly only as town; also admits he himself has committed this reliable tell as town (if that makes any sense at all);

Vote 3

, 145 - Votes Jack for not answering his question.

Vote 4

, 284 - votes for Anon because he wanted to change his vote, and said he would relook at this later (he never did);

Vote 5

, 395 - Votes Raivaan and joins the popular bandwagon for revealing that he is scum in post 387, for saying there was a scum QT (I think this was what was considered to be revealing scum). Also questions Raivaan's intentions behind commenting on his asking for Jack to be forced replaced.

Out of all of those votes, the only one that can be argued as legitimate is the last one, and that, in my opinion is highly debatable. It looks to me as more of a way to get on the Raivaan wagon than anything.

The reason I'm harping on the secret tell thing so much is because it looks to be obvious backpeddling. A tell that is more reliable than most scum tells suddenly becomes something the target does as town (and might only do as town), and also the accuser of guilty of doing as town, is hardly a more accurate tell than most scumtells. If this is not backpeddling, I don't know what is.

xvart.

[xvart]

Where

have I said I've done it as town? The tell is something I don't do period because I point-blank don't believe in it.

You are right. I am unable to locate where I got this, but by my recollection and link reference I must have misread your 368 once and didn't double check it. Misrep noted. And since you mention it, what kind of tell is it that you don't even believe in it? Regardless of the fact that you never said it, the point remains that you backpeddled on your accurate scumtell once questioned about its legitimacy. Also, tells are generally something people do not do regardless. The fact that you say you don't do it because it you don't believe in it doesn't make sense.

No where in my post do I say it is because of the QT thing. In fact, that QT thing is mentioned last and is a small detail I had a question about. Nothing about why I voted for Raivaan.

Well, pardon me for not understanding; but you indicated that there was something in Raivaan's post that revealed him to be scum, meaning a serious scumslip or having knowledge of something only scum would know. The only thing that resembles a scum outting himself is knowledge of a scum QT. Your other reasonings include Raivaan not understanding why you were asking for Jack to be force replaced and your accusation that Raivaan didn't even read your post. But to be clear and to give you the benefit of the doubt, what in Raivaan's post outted him as scum?

So you thinking voting people for reactions isn't legitimate? Also, if you read back, I had been questioning Raivaan before.

If you read back, I clearly said your Raivaan vote could be debated as being legitimate.

Underline #1: I never said he

only

did it as town. I only said I saw him do it as town, which is reason enough to know it probably isn't realiable in this instance.
Underline #2: I never said I did it before - as I don't do it period.

1. Actually, you said he

may

have only done it as town (see quote below).

Reading Budja, I saw him do my secret scumtell as both town and mafia (

or it may have been just town, I don't recall 100%

) - just that I realized he had done it before as town.

So yes, you have a sound beef about misrepresentation in your first comment. Other than that, I fail to see how I am reaching on my case and am a little disappointed because from your opening box I was expecting a blasting rebuttal. I also like have you didn't answer my question (GASP!) about your Anon vote and only really picked out a few minor things about something I said could be debated to claim were blatant misrepresentations or me trying to build a case because my ego had been brushed.

To be even more clear about the bulk of my case and the most important aspects:
Explain your sudden jump to Anon and lack of following up as you said you would; and why you never explained why he wasn't worthy of a vote afterall.
-Tell everyone what your unreliable alleged reliable "tell" is on Budja. It obviously isn't as accurate as you claimed it was so there should be no reason to withhold this information any more, especially since the accuracy and authenticity is questionable since it is apparently done frequently by town.
-Budja had five extremely short posts thus far in the game and I can't for the life of me find even the most questionable of scumtells or anything remotely resembling a scumtell in any of them. Of course, I can understand your hesitation in revealing this if it never existed in the first place and the content of Budja's posts have little with which to fabricate even a slight scumtell.

xvart.

[xvart]

The tell is using the term "WIFOM." Especially in an unnecessary/exxagerated scenario. For example, I think Budja's use of WIFOM was not called for.

I don't believe in it because for the most part I think using WIFOM is silly and is just a way for people to try to confuse you. Most things are pretty black-and-white and can be observed with a keen eye.

Hardly a secret scumtell; in fact the the MafiaWiki says that WIFOM "is often a scum tactic to distract the town." And, in the context, from what I can tell, Budja wasn't even "using" WIFOM but asking someone about WIFOM.

This is what I was referring to when I said he revealed himself as scum, by making accusations that are inaccurate had he read my posts.

Then apparently I misread your post, reading "revealed himself as scum" as actually "revealing scum" instead of "displaying scummy behavior." (Heavy dose of sarcasm).

This was not referring to my Raivaan vote. This was referring to my mallow, Jack, and even Budja vote (to a lesser extent).

Again, I saw the quote about Raivaan and the explanation about questioning Raivaan to indicate that you were talking about your Raivaan vote. Reaction votes are fine, but now apparently three out of your five votes have been reaction votes: mallow (wasn't actually to get a reaction, it was to get an answer to a question); Budja (announced that it was a reaction vote, which undermines the honest reaction that might come about); and Jack (also not a reaction vote, but a vote to get a question answered).

I can reread and explain why later.

Please do. Also, explaining why you unvoted Anon would be appreciated. Enjoy your vacation.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP (forgot to copy from another tab):

I've never seen any problem with the "secret scumtell". He never pushed my lynch and I took it as a pressure vote anyway.
But I am also interested to know why you thought Raivann was scum. Looking at that post, I read the quicktopic point as a major influence as well.

My point is that if something is a more accurate than most scumtells, it should be something you push on, which he didn't. He also undermined the super secret scumtell by preempting it with "I want to see how you react." It's either a reaction vote or a legitimate scum tell, but not both.

xvart.

[xvart]

A) I had no idea the wiki said thing, it was something I thought of myself that scum are probably more likely to use it to confuse town

B) Budja was not asking someone about WIFOM. He was saying to someone that, regarding me, "speculating on whether it is personality" is WIFOM. Like I said, using it in that context suggests he is trying to put doubt that it is a personaltiy thing. Which is something I would consider scum to do.

C) All votes are used for the purpose of examining the reaction of the person you are voting, even if it is a secondary motive. So I consider all my vote reaction votes. Also, you completely undermine my calling those specific votes reaction votes by saying "it's not a reaction vote because you didn't say so" and then saying "it's not a reaction vote because you stated it was and thus defeated the purpose." And for the record, my opinion is stating you are doing something (such as telling someone you are strongly looking at how they react to something) only invokes intimidation into those that are scum and invokes more honesty from those that are town and is not at all a bad thing.

D) I already explained why I unvoted Anon - I found Raivaan more attractive.

** Now I'll reread about Anon to tell you why I thought he was a good vote.

B) Budja already counterclaimed your assertion, so I don't need to.
C) Telling someone you are looking for reactions undermines the reaction you are trying to get. Scum could easily work around and figure out what kind of reaction you might consider scummy just by knowing that it is reaction fishing.
D) How can you find someone more attractive for voting when you don't even know why you don't remember why you were voting in the first place? Although, if it was a worthless vote with nothing behind it I can see any other case being attractive, but you must have picked Anon for some legitimate purpose, or you would have simply unvoted Jack for finally answering your question.

...Never mind, Anon should be our d2 lynch.

Why D2? Why not today?

I don't like it much, but I think he's acted more town throughout. He might not be posting huge text walls, but I have a more scummy read on Blackberry. Despite his explanations, his vote hopping is scummy. However, I realize a BB lynch probably won't happen today, so I'll be keeping a close eye on he and Mallow.

You don't vote BB because that lynch won't happen today, but you leave your vote on Mallow? How is that lynch ever going to happen today? At least BB would have two votes compared to your one vote on Mallow. Your vote would be better served on BB.

At this stage, it's clear who we are lynching. Raivann is certainly likely enough to be scum that his lynch is better than none.

unvote, vote: Raivann

Not necessarily. We can still get a lynch going on BB. If Mitsuru switches over that's three of us, vs. the 5 on Raivaan, then if a couple more of the one shot wonder votes make a decision we have a competitive wagon here.

xvart.

[xvart]

And if Raivaan comes in with a claim that is believable/confirmable then we have a secondary wagon already put together. In fact, Raivaan, why did you not claim? You are L-1.

xvart.

[xvart]

vote Jack

Um... Jack is dead.

xvart.

[xvart]

Does it sound like a Paranoid Gun Owner shot Jack? Pretend Jack wasn't a Vanilla Townie, if it had come up that he had a power role that he could target someone, would you think it was a Paranoid Gun Owner?

How would a PGO shoot Jack if he had no abilities to move around? Why are we pretending that he wasn't a VT when the mod said he was? What is the point of this little exercise?

VOTE: Blackberry

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, I dislike Xvart's 519. Way to come down too hard on BB there. Seriously though, BB explicitly stated that we were pretending Jack had night abilities. Why would you purposefully make yourself look stupid in this way?

Coming down too hard? Explain to me what purpose pretending Jack had night actions when he obviously didn't have night actions is beneficial to the town? Why should I care if the flavor for Jack's death was a PGO when I know for a fact that a PGO didn't kill Jack last night (since Jack did not have the ability to move anywhere due to being a Vanilla Townie)? I guess if it makes me stupid for asking this again, I'll have to accept that, but what is the purpose of this exercise?

mallow, I really want you to post.

I would also like those that haven't posted yet to post, however, after rethinking and rereading some things, I no longer have the same thoughts and reasons to ask this. But it would be helpful.

Reasons to ask what? For mallow to post? Or for what you alluded to here?

xvart.

[xvart]

Sometimes people talk about stuff that isn't really relevant to the game. Are you surprised? I could find a half dozen instances in this thread alone.

And I was coming down too hard how? I asked him what the purpose was. Tell me, which is worse: Me asking him about his game of pretend or my questioning him about it?

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't have the same opinions on all of them anymore. I thought Blackberry was town, but now I'm thinking he is scum because I actually read back on my own with my own opinions. Wouldn't ya know! It's easier for me to play when I actually know what's going on and I'm not waiting for a scum to claim then be lynched!

I agree with Flameaxe on this being amazingly "disgusting." Actually read back with his own opinions? Easier to play when he's not waiting for scum to claim and then be lynched? How often does scum claim? You admit to not doing any scumhunting so far? Scummy.

I am not sure what to make of Fishy attacking Stranger. This throws me off a bit.

I'm not sure what to make of you completely ignoring me.

Also - would an arsonist have some sort of Immunity from kills?

Why? Did you try and kill someone last night and that person is alive today? Jack a vig kill and then the arsonist kill?

It's obvious with your 515 and 545 that you are either trying to confuse the town with ridiculous speculation on the NK's or setup fishing; or both. Your 515 makes me think you are the arsonist and trying to play off the arsonist kill as the mafia while your 545 makes me think you are scum trying to figure out why there wasn't a third kill last night. Either way, you're scum, and must die.

xvart.

[xvart]

You still don't announce role possibilities out loud.

Agreed; because in the event that the scum are stupid or haven't picked up the tell/breadcrumb/whatever they then have incentive to go back and look for it.

I'm just going to lurk for a bit more and see how this plays out. Actually, I'm going to be

v/la from Thursday to Monday

but I don't really want to say anything. I seem to have the remarkable talent to derail progress. I do have some comments, but I want the scummy people to commit to their scumminess and the town people to not second guess themselves while I'm gone.

What in the world? You announce you are going to lurk, then announce V/LA? Is this a real V/LA or just a V/LA because you are going to lurk? Then the self deprecating opinion of yourself?

FoS: llamaeatataco

Oh, and Blackberry, unfortunately I did notice that you hadn't answered my questions. Do you know that there was a kill attempt and someone has NK immunity? What was the point of your pretend Jack visited the PGO exercise?

xvart.

[xvart]

Basically everyone should answer these questions:

1. Did you belive in Jack0s claim-?

2. What exact scum motivation can Mallow have to vote for dead people?

1. I was leaning towards not believing it but honestly I really didn't put much thought into it because it was really strange. The fact that he gave him an out with the whole miller flavor thing was weird. I figured it was just some reaction thing.
2. To appear town? Based on his play so far, I doubt mallow would have the foresight to fake a post like that; but I also can't completely discount it because it would be something so easy to do. It was only two words after all. And I guess as SC suggested, if it is a sound indicator that mallow is not mafia, that doesn't necessarily eliminate him from being the arsonist.

I like my vote on Anon even more now. Pretending you're king of the town is one thing, but this is ridiculous.

I'm really glad for you that like your vote even more now; but why did you vote for him in the first place?

xvart.

[xvart]

You willing to join me on Llama, Coug?

I still think that Blackberry is most likely scum in the game, but Llama's spectacular chainsaw is very telling with that in mind. If we aren't going to lynch BB I'll vote for llama.

xvart.

[xvart]

Trust Me. Is all I need to say. Although, it probably would have been better if I stayed low and tried to get him lynched subtley. I got over-excited.

Why would it have been better? You didn't reveal anything about your alignment or role; so being subtle has no added benefits since a vanilla townie could have that response.

After this, I believe that BB is town. I admit that, as always, my game play has been very scummy. Lynch me if you want. I have nothing to hide.

Why? This post, especially in the context of what BB is pushing seems very "off" to me. I can't quite explain it.

Also, quit the trolling. You know exactly why I voted him in the first place, even if you don't agree with it.

Trolling? I really had no clue why you were voting for Anon, other than what appears to be a personal grudge in this game; but after rereading your ISO with respect to Anon I assume your vote is based on you believe him to be blatantly lying and scummy case building? Is that correct?

I'm sorry. What about 209 is so scummy exactly? Raivann posted a completely baseless theory in a point in the game where his scumhunting levels were completely nonexistant. Sure, he said he read, but when you post a theory like he did, that has no concrete proof at all, it doesn't exactly show you reread shit, and that's what I pushed for most of day one. If I follow your logic, I can just say in this post that I'm about to reread, and come back later with a post that simply says: "Hey guys, my reread showed that Scoug is scum. Vote." The game just doesn't work that way. You need to back your claims up, and Raivann simply was not.

I think it goes without saying I still stand by my entire case against Raivann, despite the unfavorable result. For a good 5-7 pages, his entire reason for believing I was scum was that I was "misreading" him. That's what his "reread" showed. Something that happened AFTER his theory post. I still believe his reread was bullshit, and I still know he never showed anything to make me feel otherwise.

Why are you still trying to justify the Raivaan lynch?

And just to clarify this whole BB/mallow/flameaxe thing: mallow is presumed scum because he is scum and the scum team submitted a kill on flameaxe but something happened to that kill since flameaxe is still alive? Either a redirect or block, right? I can see this and I am willing to vote mallow if we think we have gotten enough from this day.

xvart.

[xvart]

MALLWOGENO IS

MAFIA

(NOT ARSONIST). IF I AM WRONG YOU CAN KILL ME TOMORROW. MALLOWGENO JUST CONFESSED TO BEING MAFIA.

TRUST ME

.

When you say "trust me" it implies a level of understanding beyond the evidence of him slipping on his supposed target.

StrangerCoug isn't

mafia

for already being on Mallow.

So tell me about your SC read now that Mallow has flipped town.

This was my initial thought after the results of last night. Reading back just now, I noticed: XVART, ANON and BUDJA never vote or FOS one another. STRANGER does a FOS to Budja, but that is all. I am confident all of the scum are within those four.

I can't speak for the other two, but I haven't felt a need to vote/FoS either of them, mainly because I've been actually voting for scum for most of the game: YOU. This is just ridiculous because Anon was doc protected last night and there was no kill, yet you are still suspicious of him. Do you really think that scum would be so "scared" of your wildly powerful, yet unrevealed role to no kill? You really are playing this fake role up to the maximum potential. You are truly going to be busted when you claim, because I can't think of any role that could possibly provide all the information you have alluded to having.

I believe Confucius' claim. I don't know if Anon was the target for mafia, if mafia decided to no-kill out of fear of my role, I think they may have tried to kill Flameaxe and he could have NK immunity.

How could you possibly believe that Confucius is a doctor when you said you saved Flameaxe the night before? You think there are two town protective roles in this game?

Anon was actually my top suspect for mafia after yesterday... so if he was the mafia's target, it'd be kind of odd to me.

Really? He was even more of a suspect than your 100% scum read on Mallow (who flipped town)?

I do not agree with popcorn, because I do not want you telling us who claims next. I think you are scum, and you should have been lynched on Day One. We can decide what order the rest of us claim in after you have claimed.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I don't really see the need to do a full role claim because Blackberry is so obviously scum; but, if everyone else wants to do a complete claim I definitely do not think Blackberry gets to choose the first to go after him.

WIFOM Warning

: Added to his blatant overall obvious scumminess, I think the reason I am still alive should be considered (only slightly) as evidence against him. If Blackberry is scum, mafia wouldn't kill me because I have had my sights on him since day one and it would only add suspicion to him. If Blackberry is not scum, I would make a perfect NK target to set him up for the same reason.

Ready to vote Blackberry when given the all clear.

xvart.

[xvart]

Hmmm... I've never played with a Bus Driver before, so I'm going to have to defer to the mob for some of this. I know a bus driver can be either alignment, but which is it typically in a mini? If a bus driver switched Person A and Person B and a tracker tracked a mafia member to person A's location would the tracker's result show up as him going to Person A or Person B (who is now in Person A's spot)?

Does it sound like a Paranoid Gun Owner shot Jack? Pretend Jack wasn't a Vanilla Townie, if it had come up that he had a power role that he could target someone, would you think it was a Paranoid Gun Owner?

The PGO would have shot you, not the person you switched the PGO with.

BB - you never said why you switched Jack and Flameaxe. Why did you pick those two people?

I protected Anon last night. We need to full-claim today, starting with Blackberry.

Why did you protect Anon last night?

Your claim had nothing to do with my hammer, nor did I find it brought any useful information to the table in my eyes as I already worked out Blackberry's role. I've had a town read on Blackberry for most of this game, and I trusted his judgement because of it (and his potential role for what its worth).

When, exactly, had you worked out his role?

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay; after rereading BB in light of his bus driver claim, a lot of what he said makes a lot more sense and his actions also make more sense (although the whole PGO thing is still incredible nonsense). I don't think he is obvtown as Anon seems to believe, and I still think his behavior D1 was incredibly suspicious, so he is still on my possible scum list.

Flameaxe I can 100% confirm isn't

Mafia

.

I don't think Coug is mafia because he was on mallowgeno before he slipped. Not 100%, but a good bet.

--- ---

I don't see a problem with secrecy at this point. If I die at night, you can just look at my role and deduce what happened. If I am alive tomorrow, I can (and probably will) explain then. We only need one more vote to verify if I am right or not. Plus, I'd rather people do less talking and more voting. The quicker we end the day, the less info mafia has to make their decisions tonight.

@Xvart: I had a pretty good idea by this post.

Why did you think he was bus driver by that post?

---

Raivann

- 5 - Flameaxe,

Llama

, Budja, Blackberry, Strangercoug
Blackberry - 4 - xvart,

Raivann

, Mitsuru, Fishy

Jack

- 1 -

Mallowgeno

Flameaxe - 1 - Anon
Budja - 1 -

Jack

mallowgeno

- 5 - StrangerCoug, Blackberry, Budja,

llama

, Flameaxe
Blackberry - 2 - xvart,

mallowgeno

Flameaxe - 1 - Confucius

Not Voting - 1 - Anon

If there are three scum (two mafia and one arsonist) I'm willing to bet that two of them are in the group responsible for the two lynches in some combination. Going to go back and look at these people (StrangerCoug, Blackberry, Budja, flameaxe).

xvart.

[xvart]

By elimination I'm pretty certain scum = Anon, Xvart and arsonist=Flameaxe.

So what does that mean about a no mafia kill last night and a doctor protect on Anon? I'd say you are definitely on the short list of being scum.

While I don't expect it, there is still a possibility of three scum. It hasn't been ruled out. Given that, why would we go for an arsonist lynch exactly? Unless of course we are mafia and want a win. Even with two scum, I'd even say going for mafia would be more ideal. While it hasn't happened yet, I don't see why a crosskill couldn't happen. Not much to bank on, but It'd sure be nice.

What does the number of scum have to do with whom we should be targeting for the lynch? If there are two or three scum, it doesn't matter if we lynch one because there would still be one left, and still be a kill. The point of targeting lynching the arsonist is because if we succeed in lynching the arsonist there would only be one potential kill per night. This whole justifying not targeting the arsonist for a lynch is highly suspect.

Confuc - just for confirmation, does it say you protect from MAFIA? Or what specifically do you protect from? (I am reading myself type this and I realize it would be rather silly to have a doctor that just protects from a SK and there be no mafia, lol)

We did have a doctor that protects from the arsonist: the firefighter. Confucious already said that he doesn't protect from the arsonist, so that leaves mafia and vig kills. I don't understand your speculation.

I adore the OMGUS but you are missing the point. Can you explain why did you want to confirm Jack0s role (Night 1) if you didnt think his claim was real (Day 1)?

I think this question is irrelevant because it appears that a majority of people didn't believe his claim (or didn't care either way) and the lynch all liars line of thinking wasn't followed so his alignment was still questionable. But, I could see scumSC thief checking him to see if his role was accurate for scum purposes in night kill selection later. Also, SC's vote on Anon is suspect since, from my perspective, Anon is practically confirmed not scum since he was doc protected last night and there was no kill, unless you think Anon might be the Arsonist. Is that why you are voting Anon?

Would it be a good idea to claim flavor in addition to roles? So if SC gets a result on someone we can cross check that with the flavor claims from the previous day?

xvart.

[xvart]

If we have three scum, and lynch the arsonist, we have reached endgame. That is why it matters. Banking on two scum sounds like a terrible idea at this point. How this is "suspect" is beyond me.

Okay; I get this point of view now. I didn't get that from your first post. I think the likelihood of there being three scum is not very high; but I at least understand your thinking now.

xvart.

[xvart]

I am a Ben Goodman, VT. I like computer games, so my best guess as to what SC would steal from me is a computer game or something thereabouts.

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart - You "like computer games"? Your background says "I like video games." Could you be more specific?

Basically yes. My parents are Stephen and Delia. I am a normal teenage boy. I play computer games and chill with my friends. My secret is I am failing math (due to playing computer games when I should be doing my homework) and if my parents find out I'm going to be grounded for a long time.

xvart.

[xvart]

So you're my mother? lol. Did you know that you had a son?

xvart.

[xvart]

I have trouble thinking Coug-scum as thief is a town role (wiki).

I don't understand this; but I'm guessing it is more in my comprehension (like reading a sentence with multiple double negatives).

Ah! Yes, I remember you, Ben. How has school been for you?

Well... I'm failing math... But what I really meant was did your role pm tell you anything about having a son?

Anon's claim, if true, may throw a lot of what I thought out the window regarding Confucius and the possible night kill last night.

Since I trust BB, then you cant be mafia, so yeah, you are the arsonist.

Can you explain to me why you trust BB? Or give me a post number where you stated the same earlier?

Claim: Arsonist

@scum, I am not killing tonight. You get to WIFOM Blackberry. Kill me and you get lynched tomorrow. Kill town and you have a chance.
@town, I'm 90% sure Anon and Xvart are the scum. Help me lynch one or you lose.
VOTE: Xvart

I've never played in a game where an anti-town faction has claimed because it was in their best interest, so this is uncharted territory for me. I can see why Budja claimed, but I'm having a hard time determining the best course of action. It seems to me that if you lead a lynch on town (which you are trying to do now) it will put us at 2T: 2M: 1A going into night you will have to kill because then the mafia will kill you then it is 2:2 tomorrow (with your no kill) with a guaranteed win for the mafia. I don't see how we can trust you not to kill; but I also see how we have to lynch scum today, leaving it as 3:1:1, scum killing town (and you not killing) leaving it at the start of day tomorrow as 2:1:1, then town lynches either scum or you it is 2:1 going into night and either scum faction will then win with the NK or burn that night (leaving it as 1:1 the next day, which is also a loss for the town). Am I forgetting any scenario? This obviously doesn't consider any doctor saves or commuter saves so we should consider that, too.

Regardless, I think it might be prudent to remove your vote for the time being as I know lynching me is not in your best interest (as outlined above).

StrangerCoug, can you

use

items you steal? I have to say, this “poison” kill makes me wonder if you used the syringe you stole from me, or something.

Does your flavor indicate something about a poison syringe? The fact that you were accused of medical malpractice makes me wonder if something strange is going on here.

If Blackberry is scum, then the same logic applies. How the Hell is a Town with a couple protective roles and a Thief supposed to lynch scum when the few roles it

does

have are so easily screwed with (especially since

two

targets each night become scrambled)?

Maybe SC's ability is not necessarily an information role as it is a possible vig. If there are a few roles out there that have flavored weapons that could be turned around and used as a kill it wouldn't matter if the roles were necessarily bus driven. SC could have stolen a poisoned syringe from you and used that on our leading suspect in an attempt to get the town a leg up today. The same might be true if he stole a gun or something from the scum.

Of all the claims, I disbelieve Anon’s the most. First, because it is not an ability that can be switched by a Bus Driver, and second, the Town already has two protective roles (Firefighter and Doctor).

But they really aren't two protective roles. Basically together they are one full fledged doctor. You can't save from the arsonist and the firefighter presumably can't save against night kills.

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, (wifom tags), I was the last one in claiming. If I were scum, knowing that there were already two protection roles, I could have claimed any other thing besides commuter. (wifom tags)

My biggest concern here is that there is no practical way to confirm your role. I had you and Confucius cleared as probable town until you claimed.

@xvart, If its not 2-1-9, it would be game over already.

My scenarios are written under the assumption that it is 2:1:9.

Also, I obv. am trying to kill scum, if you are town convince me of your scumteam of choice.

I originally thought that StrangerCoug, Blackberry, Flameaxe, and you had at least two of the scum in there. You are the arsonist, flameaxe was town, and now Anon is not cleared by the doctor protection; so I'm now leaning StrangerCoug, Blackberry, and Anon having the two scum in that group. I haven't quite worked out the relationships/interactions and have to consider the balance issue that Confucius suggested about the bus driver.

I immediately realized that upon seeing the "poison" kill that my role would look suspicious, especially after divulging my "secret." A syringe in the hands of somebody who should not have it (StrangerCoug) seemed like one possible explanation.

I think the poison has to have been by a townie. A daykill would alleviate the bus driven concerns and make sure the town killed whom was targeted. Also, it seems like town timing to try and kill Flameaxe as likely scum to give the town an advantage with another lynch before nightfall.

Pretty simple. I was trying to hit scum.

Coug-scum would be unlikely, as I said before thief is a pro-town role and I find it hard to believe that you would only have protection roles.

You thought Mitsuru was scum? Why?

xvart.

[xvart]

I had nothing to do with the poison kill. You're talking about balance, and from what I see balance wise it seems to fit as a town move and town role. All I'm really saying is I don't see the arsonist also specializing in poison, nor do I see the scum having a NK and poison ability; but I can also see the hesitation in claiming since the target was town and we are now in quite the pickle. I'm not ready to suggest that the poisoner claim since if the poisoner has another shot we might need it tomorrow but in my eyes it would clear someone as town.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm really tired. Just got done moving into my new apartment. I literally only read the past two/three posts. Poisoner: The purpose of the poisoner is that their kill takes effect at a later date. In other words: someone could have poisoned Flameaxe last nigth, and he dies Mid-day today. If you've noticed, it says Day three AND A HALF. If it was a day-kill, it wouldn't say AND A HALF. That specific phrase suggests it is part of a role. Also, reading Poisoner, as I believe I've mentioned, it states that if the mafia Poisoner performs the kill, the poison is used/the target dies at a later date. Explaining why no one died last night at the hands of the mafia.

What? It says poisoned day 3:

Flameaxe - Joseph Reeves - Vanilla Townie - Poisoned Day 3

Also, why haven't you claimed flavor while asking everyone else to? What is your secret?

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart, the title got changed to Day Three and a Half. And if you look up the role of Poisoner, it is a mafia role that takes affect at a later time.

I get that the poisoner typically works on a delayed timeline, but the fact that you are justifying this by the title of the thread being changed is absolutely absurd. So do you think one of the scum members has a night shot and the other has a delayed poison ability? If that is the case in this game then neither Confucius nor Anon are cleared anymore. The reason I was thinking the poisoner was a town role was because of the circumstances (as I have explained). It makes sense to me that a vig would kill our prime suspect to simulate a double lynch for the town, and with the added discussion about the stolen syringe that is what I had worked out.

Also, there is nothing in my

storyline

that would suggest what a thief would steal from me. Thus, leaving me to believe that someone would get something based off of my role. I don't know why I thought it was relevant, just throwing it out there.

Maybe they would still your gun or poisoned needles?

Just throwing this out there. I have considered claiming SK as scum I believe. But since no one is CCing, Anon and Xvart are pretty much scum-confirmed, as Confucius and Stranger have cleared themselves in my opinion.

How is Confucius cleared? Especially after your detailed explanation of how the poisoning works? Confucius hasn't actually saved anyone if what you are saying about poisoning is accurate in this game, and is therefore unconfirmed. In fact, now that I think about it, a claimed doctor would be a perfect claim for scum because it would keep Budja from killing him since the doctor can't save against burning; but the only problem is the possible counter claim; so I'm not really ready to go down this road since Confucius claimed so early.

If anyone looks at Xvart's posts, all he does is ask non-relevant questions. He also tries to use the info he gets to turn it around on the person. This is why I want to lynch him ^_^.

What non-relevant questions have I asked? I'm trying to get a grip on how all these roles interact, so if you consider my speculation on what might happen each night with an outted arsonist or asking if a bus driver is typically a scum or town role as non-relevant I guess that is your prerogative. I have never played in a game with a commuter, poisoner, or thief, and I was only in one game with a bus driver where I was killed N1. This is pretty new territory for me and despite you and the arsonist going around casting votes I'm trying to get information about likely scenarios to help the town.

Also, I don't think a real Arsonist would Counterclaim at this point. Also, I don't see a problem in killing a claimed arsonist either:
* If we kill arsonist, there's one mafia kill tonight. Confic will protect either me or Stranger (I assume). I will therefore either bus either me or Confuc with one of the remaining scum. Mathematically, we have a 66% chance of protecting correctly. Thus, next day occurs and we outnumber scum 3 to 2.
* If we kill scum claiming arsonist, it doesn't hurt us. One down, two to go. We still protect the same people, good chance all or atleast 2 survive till tomorrow.
* Also, Doctor can only protect from mafia kills, whereas Arsonist can still kill those people. Just saying.

Xvart is who I want to lynch.

This is especially disturbing to me because you outline why killing the arsonist is an optimal play for the town but then you vote me.

I don't see how leaving the arsonist alive is going to be good play, so unless someone can convince me otherwise:

VOTE: Budja

xvart.

[xvart]

Confucius is cleared by my stealing the syringe from him. For otherwise to be true, I must be unable to rely on stolen items for determining scum (or be scum myself, but I'm not, and Blackberry still brings up a good point).

And Confucius couldn't possibly be a mafia goon (with former doctor flavor/secret of malpractice) with poison as his weapon? What do you expect you would steal from the poisoner?

The only ones who really get screwed by this is you and Anon.

Well if we are going to target mafia then I will vote Anon, because he is as unconfirmed as I am and as likely scum based on PoE, and I know lynching me is the wrong play for us, which means Anon is scum. If lynching mafia is the safest play for town, then Anon is the lynch; not me. Then you can steal from me and clear me tonight, and since everyone is so confident in Confucius being the doctor he will save you.

We lynch the arsonist, Mafia makes a kill, it's 2:2 and a town loss. You wanting to go this route comes off as appearing to want to lynch scum, but the wrong scum—your enemy other than us. Way to fail logic class.

And if when you lynch town how are our odds of winning?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts about BB's number crunching.

xvart.

[xvart]

Budja - what's really intriguing is the fact that you are hesitant to claim why you killed Mijutski night 1 and are reluctant to reveal your flavor/secret. Why is that? You have nothing to hide as the outted Arsonist.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm guessing that the point of the thief is an investigative role of sorts, correct? So wouldn't the thief steal something that indicates mafia or arsonist alignment? Otherwise, what is the point of the thief other than to confirm our story flavor?

I also don't see what you are saying is strange; stealing a syringe doesn't confirm you as doctor if the syringe is a weapon of the poisoner, and since you haven't saved anyone it is a possibility, especially with your alleged false accusations of malpractice. It might confirm you as having doctor flavor or having access to doctor tools, but I don't see how someone who All I know is that based on my flavor, story, and secret SC won't be getting a gun, poison bottle, syringe, match, gasoline, or anything related to those things, which would confirm me as not scum tomorrow;

unless the thief is completely useless and doesn't steal scummy items from scum

.

I have a follow up. You said you left your previous job after being wrongly accused of malpractice to start a family. You are not currently practicing medicine?

xvart.

[xvart]

The Thief clearly does at least confirm story flavor, elsewise StrangerCoug would not have gotten a "pint of beer" result from Flameaxe.

Clearly, but why didn't you include yourself in that example as being cleared flavor wise? I would think that would be the first example that pop to your mind. Just a quick question, and just take a guess; but what do you suppose SC would steal from the gun toting mafia? What about the poisoner? And the arsonist?

xvart.

[xvart]

I did not include myself as an example of a Thief confirming flavor because a "syringe" is clearly related to my

role

and not my

flavor

.

But it is related to your flavor of once being a doctor. But I'm glad you said what you did because you attacked me over my suggestion of being cleared by SC tomorrow because how could I possibly be cleared if SC stole from me. If your PR is confirmed because of an item that was stolen from you, wouldn't it be a pretty safe assumption to think that either the mafia or arsonist would be confirmed by the same reasoning? Or do you think that the thief only steals relevant items from town PRs? Since I am vanilla townie, SC won't be stealing anything scum related, which is what would clear me. Now that you admit the thief can confirm roles, explain your attack on me. Also, you didn't answer what you might hypothesize that SC would steal from the gun shooting mafia, the poisoning mafia, and the arsonist. This is clearly an important question because it is 100% relevant to your attack on me.

Earlier, you were arguing that the Poisoner must be Town, and now you have changed your tune once players started agreeing you were the correct lynch. Asking me loaded questions is surprisingly not helping your position.

And I explained why I thought as such before anyone else had really come out and claimed the poison was 100% scum. But, it is interesting that you were the first to suggest that the stolen needle might actually be poisoned.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vote: Xvart

again.

So you don't think your suggested plan of lynching the arsonist is sound anymore?

Noting that I could hammer at the moment.

xvart, if you are going to claim Arsonist, Poisoner, or anything besides Townie, do so in your next post.

Noting that you are still not answering the relevant questions to your attack on my suggestion of how to clear me tonight.

And why do you keep asking me to claim something I am not in my next post? IF you are town and hammer, you screw our faction over; however, if I am lynched and the town happens to survive the night by whatever bus driver/commuter/whatever reason, and Budja actually doesn't kill anyone, then the town should have a decent amount of information to go on tomorrow.

I also implore everyone to go back and look at my play this game and Anon (the other unconfirmed role) and see which of us is most likely to be playing the scum game. Where is Anon anyways?

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh, and if the best play is to lynch the mafia and not the arsonist, then

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Anon

xvart.

[xvart]

lol. Nice play, Budja. Good luck town.

xvart.

[xvart]

I should have said: "good luck, town. You're going to need it" since I don't care who wins. I just didn't want to leave the impression that I want the town to win.

xvart.

[xvart]

That was a fun game. I enjoyed it immensely; except for the inactivity towards the end. I'll just copy my pm's to Prozac for my thoughts toward the end of the game. I should also say that I almost killed Budja N1 but I still felt bad about [ongoing game] and since I didn't have a strong scum read on anyone I went random (with BB excluded). Never again will I make that mistake.

Hey Prozac - Just wanted to say I had a ton of fun playing this game. I had never been SK/Arsonist before. I also wanted to see how you thought I played (from the omniscient perspective). I knew I was pretty much screwed by PoE but I was first thinking that when Budja claimed there was no way/reason for me to counter claim, even if I came close to a lynch. By him claiming Arsonist, the mafia team would have to leave me for their last move and hope that their second member stayed alive (as I would have to leave him alive for my last move). I knew that if I was going to win I was going to have to get one of the power roles lynched and leave Anon alive for the second scum member.

I was going down the path that BB would bus drive me (as he alluded to bussing one of the scummy people) I was sure he would bus me, so if I flamed myself it would burn someone else (one of the pro town power role) people while also clearing me from being the arsonist. That didn't clear me of being scum but if I survived the day and night it would be too far along for the town to recover and it would get Budja off me and I would be able to kill him at night.

Then my wagon started building and I figured I had to cast enough doubt on the people on my wagon and hope to get a scum lynch and save my ass. The only way to save my ass was to volunteer to get thieved tonight which would then most likely ruin my chances of being bus driven; but I saw no alternative. At this point, if I survived the day, I knew I wouldn't make it much longer unless one of the claimed people (confucius) got lynched and flipped scum, so I was banking on Confucius being scum as my Hail Mary. And, in the event that I did get lynched, at least I might cause some serious doubt on the town on who they can trust and maybe just get some mutual destruction between town and scum tomorrow. I've always felt that it should be included in the standard SK wincon that if you winning becomes nearly impossible, wreaking havoc is an appropriate alternative.

I also knew that voting Anon would be the nail in my coffin at the time of the vote if Anon came back relatively quickly since it was basically him or me (unless I could convince some people of confucius) and I needed to make an effort to go with the town's wishes of lynching scum. I was just hoping to get a vote removed before he came back to buy me some more time.

Anyways, those were my thoughts during the last day. Just wondering how you thought I was doing up until my demise. Tomorrow should be fun if the town lives through the night.

Thanks again for a great game.

Is there a dead QT?

xvart.

Thanks for the comments. They are helpful. I kind of had it in the back of my mind that I would have to CC but I was falsely holding on to the hope that I could stall my wagon out. I almost went hard core AtE and self meta but I knew that would be overstepping it saying how I typically go hard core after one person day one, but I was pretty sure that wouldn't do much since I know how scummy I think those things are. I also think I disillusioned myself with the thoughts of grandeur of how badass it would have been to burn myself and get bus driven and after that option seemed unlikely I just looked like I was scrambling (which I was).

What would SC have stolen from me?

I'd be interested in reading the game you mentioned.

xvart.

Again, good game everyone. Like I said, SC, I didn't care if the town won or lost.

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh, and /pre-in.

xvart.