Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[StrangerCoug]

Why would scum claim a power role per se, Fishythefish? I've done the tactic a lot myself, but don't you think there are times claiming VT is safer (such a situation was brought up in SWN II)?

[Anon]

Im back. Rereading what I missed.

[Budja]

Quick Post.
At this point Raivann should be lynched.
Lots of information to be gained and no real loss if we are wrong.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

I genuinely did not know. As scum I've been a victim of this trick and revealed my alignment. It's just a misread, which I quickly corrected.

[Budja]

^ As town, I've survived by this trick too.
Llama, Mitsuru are not scummy for employing this gambit. It actually gives Llama a few town points.

The Raivann wagon was quick but I suspect this has a good deal to do with us being sick of this day rather than scummy intent. Stagnation and lack of wagons haven't helped us.

[xvart]

typing one handed sucks, as does quoting and such so pardon the messy presentation.

I like Xvart's case on BB, but my gut is saying BB is town. At any rate, it's the 'best' one so far other than FA's.

what FA case? a case on him? or a case by him?

Well good for you on your last game. Your suggestion to have him forced replaced was unfounded and would never have happened. By your reference to your last game you know that it was something that was not going to go well.

Ummm, it did go well, I got what I wanted.

alleged drunk observations

Does alleged indicate you think I was faking drunk? I think that sounds really stupid. If anything I was either drunk and a mafia pretend to hunt, or I am drunk and a townsperson thinking I am seeing things. What purpose does it serve someone to pretend to be drunk?

Also, your reference to the on going game as trap setting is irrelevant and unprovable. I would suggest not following this train of thought.

This does not seem like something a town would say who is trying to figure out the facts and previous history.

re: alleged drunk obs - what i meant was all of your observations/"cases"/votes always have some quantifier like being drunk, "wanting" to change votes for some unknown reason, super secret scumtells that always work, etc. Youe votes and cases are justified by nonsense.
re: something town would say - you are trying to validate a behavior based on an on going game in which you haven't even flipped, how am i supposed to judge that? i don't want a response because i don't want you commenting on an on going game any more than you have.

you also truncated the part of my quote asking about your budja vote. i'm sure this was intentional because you don't want to say your super accurate secret scumtell was bogus to begin with; but i'll pretend for a moment that it was an accident you cut that part out of the quote.

@flameaxe, 390 - pbpa mean little to me. i could do a pbpa of anyone and make them look scummy. fake scumhunting maybe?

@llama, 407 second line - what post are you referring?

xvart.

[Flameaxe]

Xvart:

I'm sorry they don't mean much to you. However, I find them to be incredibly useful, not only for my own understanding of the game, but I find them to be a great way to get a point across and back it up. This is what I did in my post. Sorry if I sound arrogant here, but did you read the entire post? Do you have anything to comment on besides the fact that it is a pbpa? I personally do not feel I can make a pbpa of every person in this game and make it look scummy, and I find it hard to believe the same could be said for you.

[llamaeatataco]

Budja has posted very little game content. Llama is cracking continuously under pressure. Mallow I've explained my vote on already.

I'm assuming your evidence of this is Raivann's repeated assertions that I've been 'flailing'? I want to see quote evidence of this now. As for Budja, you're correct. But at least he hasn't posted a bunch of useless junk to disguise his lack of content. In fact, a quick iso-meta of him shows that he's contributed at about this level of content at least once before in British Comedy Mafia. (he was town.) So you have a scumtell contradicted by meta and a load of crap. You still have yet to explain your town read on Raivann. Also, what link is there between Mallow and I? Is it just that Mallow is an easy target, and Raivann is already attacking me, so you might as well throw your lot in with your scumbuddy?

Yes, I am implying a Mitsuru/Raivann scumteam. His actions make no sense at all, and hers don't make sense as town. They might make sense as newscum.

@llama, 407 second line - what post are you referring?

His huge pbpa where he details exactly why Raivann is scum. The one that you didn't read.
I'd hesitate to call something scummy that you haven't even read. I think pbpa's are awesome, but I'm too lazy to do one myself. At least, I have been so far. I might do one just for lulz on Mitsuru tomorrow if/when Raivann flips scum.

completely offtopic comment: Holy crap Coug is a guy?

Llama, Mitsuru are not scummy for employing this gambit. It actually gives Llama a few town points.

Actually, I kind of feel like a jerk for doing it. I mean, certainly it would only trip up a person who isn't paying attention, and it would be their own fault, but still...

re: alleged drunk obs - what i meant was all of your observations/"cases"/votes always have some quantifier like being drunk, "wanting" to change votes for some unknown reason, super secret scumtells that always work, etc. Youe votes and cases are justified by nonsense.

Yeah, super secret scumtells are annoying. I'm just going to accept it as a reason for BB's vote, but I'm certainly not going to follow it. IMO it's possible for it to be genuine, so I'm just ignoring it as a tell for now. As for the rest of it, it's not quite true. I do believe BB has had a good point or two. His votes and cases are only justified by nonsense twice, and once it was completely obvious that it was nonsense, he even admitted it in the post. Are you really suggesting he thought that BB believed his drunk intuition to be reliable?

Two things give me pause for thought. The speed of the wagon, and to a lesser extent the VT claim. Neither of these are typical of scum wagons.

1. FA posted a pbpa in which he detailed exactly why Raivann was scum. All the votes followed that, because it put everything in one place and kind of hard to ignore.
2. I actually claim VT more often as scum than I do a power role.

Basically, on a review I don't know what to think. It's very easy to get a scumread on Raivann, but I'm not sure it's actually right.

unvote, vote: llama

This does not seem to make sense. It's like you noticed Raivann was in serious danger and then decided that you didn't really want your vote there, so you moved it back to me. I'm guess I've just always been your backup pick? Do you still believe I am scum?


Basically, Mitsuru needs to ACTUALLY explain her reads. I want specific reasons why she believes Raivann is town, and I want specific quote evidence or iso numbers for posts where I 'cracked under pressure.'

I don't expect to actually get this, because I believe Mitsuru is just sheeping completely with Raivann. Raivann doesn't have any evidence, so Mitsuru won't have anyone to steal it from.


Actually, the wagon hasn't been all that fast. FA voted, I switched my vote (I had already expressed my suspicions of him, I do believe) and Fishy switched. FA did his pbpa, we picked up Budja and Coug. Really the only bit that was fast was Budja and Coug coming on, but that was to be expected.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

[quote="llama"If you break any of the main links in the chain, your argument fails.[/quote]

Calling people's English bad. General insults. I define this as cracking under pressure. There's no real need to call people's arguments stupid or English bad in my experience. The fact that you react with this increases my scum read on you.

You also seem awfully determined to make a big deal out of my town read on Raivann and asking him about his role when I thought he was dead. Why are you so determined to get a scum read out of this? It was just a role question. Like anyone would ask when someone dies.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Post ended short because I need to sleep. I'll be going to bed now.

[Fishythefish]

Why would scum claim a power role per se, Fishythefish? I've done the tactic a lot myself, but don't you think there are times claiming VT is safer (such a situation was brought up in SWN II)?

They would claim PR because they don't like getting lynched. There are certainly situation where a VT claim is better, but they are relatively rare and there's no reason to suppose this is one of them. That's only a minor reason for my change of vote though - it's mostly because this wagon doesn't feel right, and I realised I just don't have a coherent picture of scumRaivann.

@llama: I think it's pretty clear that Raivann's been in danger since before I voted him, so moving away because he's in danger makes little sense. I thought harder about Raivann, and realised that I hadn't seen anything which actually made me think "yeah, scum would do that". What is it in FA's ppba, or elsewhere, that you think fits with Raivann being scum?

My move back to you is for the same reasons I was voting you before (largely you're early game play). I still think you're scum.

The wagon certainly was fast. He went from 1 vote to L-1 in 2 days.

[llamaeatataco]

(quote fixed because it was bothering me)

If you break any of the main links in the chain, your argument fails.

Calling people's English bad. General insults. I define this as cracking under pressure. There's no real need to call people's arguments stupid or English bad in my experience.
The fact that you react with this increases my scum read on you.

How does the quote that you selected indicate alignment of any sort? It was a statement of a basic truth: If you can't link a persons actions to a scum mindset, your argument is invalid. It's like doing proofs in geometry.

"Calling people's English bad." If your English is bad, it's bad. It's not a scum move to correct someone if their English is unreadable. I do believe you are referring to my impression of Mallow, correct me if I am wrong. Certainly it's kind of a rude thing to do, but is it something scum would do?

"General insults." I'm an insult-happy person. My job requires me to deal with stupid people every day, and it kind of has effected my level of patience, and my readiness to insult people. Sue me. Meta me. I'm pretty sure I've done this as town in... Every single one of my games.

Yes, there is a need if the argument really is stupid. The smilie case was stupid. I'm not afraid to say it. If you would take the 2 minutes or so it would require to meta me, you would see that I do this no matter what my alignment is, whether or not I'm 'under pressure.' Go read ISO 1 of me. I call Raivann's 'case' stupid in my first real post in the game. I'm under no pressure at all. Your 'scumtell' isn't even what you say it is. I'm not cracking under pressure, I'm like this all the time. To borrow from another players signature: I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out. But I'm not so much bitter or cold, just a cruel asshole. deal.

You also seem awfully determined to make a big deal out of my town read on Raivann and asking him about his role when I thought he was dead. Why are you so determined to get a scum read out of this? It was just a role question. Like anyone would ask when someone dies.

How am I making a big deal out of you asking about his role? The only thing I'm making a big deal out of is the fact that you have twice now completely avoided giving any reasoning at all for your town read on him. Now, considering how completely scummy he's been, I find this a little suspicious. I'm not 'determined to get a scum read' I'm confounded by your town read, and your reluctance to explain it. You're being as stubborn and unhelpful as Jack.

@Fishy: It's pretty clear that he's been scummy... I didn't really think it was a big deal that you unvoted, I just wanted to float the idea.

What is it that makes me think he's scum? Constant OMGUSING, a nearly complete lack of real scumhunting, staying out of the spotlight and finally, pretending that he's been completely right and we're silly for not following him. I can't see town doing ANY of those things. I can't see a competent player doing any of them regardless of alignment, but incompetent scum might.

Mod, I'm not going to have computer access for the rest of today, tomorrow and probably the first half of Sunday.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

OK. I can admit when I'm wrong. I have no real evidence on Llama and thought I'd try and get a lynch because I have a gut scum read on llama. Take it as you like.

As for Raivann, he might have been scummy at first, and I thought so too, but now he's asking questions, responding to accusations and trying to scumhunt. So what if he doesn't post huge walls of text? He was scummy at first, but isn't now. He shouldn't be lynched.

[Flameaxe]

OK. I can admit when I'm wrong. I have no real evidence on Llama and thought I'd try and get a lynch because I have a gut scum read on llama. Take it as you like.

As for Raivann, he might have been scummy at first, and I thought so too, but now he's asking questions, responding to accusations and trying to scumhunt. So what if he doesn't post huge walls of text? He was scummy at first, but isn't now. He shouldn't be lynched.

Sorry, I still don't see all this trying to scumhunt business. From my pbpa he has had one worthwhile post in my eyes (406). Nothing else has changed in the way he has played this game from the start.

[Raivann]

internets down phone posting be up this weekend hopefully

[Flameaxe]

OK. I can admit when I'm wrong. I have no real evidence on Llama and thought I'd try and get a lynch because I have a gut scum read on llama. Take it as you like.

As for Raivann, he might have been scummy at first, and I thought so too, but now he's asking questions, responding to accusations and trying to scumhunt. So what if he doesn't post huge walls of text? He was scummy at first, but isn't now. He shouldn't be lynched.

Sorry, I still don't see all this trying to scumhunt business. From my pbpa he has had one worthwhile post in my eyes (406). Nothing else has changed in the way he has played this game from the start.

Replace "from" with "since".

[StrangerCoug]

completely offtopic comment: Holy crap Coug is a guy?

Yep. Probably no more than half the age you thought I was, too. (If you don't get my comment, then you live a sheltered life.)

[Anon]

Kay, some shit happened yesterday... content post incominggggggggggg

[xvart]

Xvart:

I'm sorry they don't mean much to you. However, I find them to be incredibly useful, not only for my own understanding of the game, but I find them to be a great way to get a point across and back it up. This is what I did in my post. Sorry if I sound arrogant here, but did you read the entire post? Do you have anything to comment on besides the fact that it is a pbpa? I personally do not feel I can make a pbpa of every person in this game and make it look scummy, and I find it hard to believe the same could be said for you.

I don't think you're arrogant at all. And yes, I did read it. I personally find more consolidated summary posts more effective at conveying scumminess. My problem about pbpa, especially in cases of players already in the spotlight, is that it is a lot of typing when a summary would do just the same. Even adding in that "x number of posts were useless or had nothing to comment on" to convey that the person in question isn't really contributing.

Yeah, super secret scumtells are annoying. I'm just going to accept it as a reason for BB's vote, but I'm certainly not going to follow it. IMO it's possible for it to be genuine, so I'm just ignoring it as a tell for now. As for the rest of it, it's not quite true. I do believe BB has had a good point or two. His votes and cases are only justified by nonsense twice, and once it was completely obvious that it was nonsense, he even admitted it in the post. Are you really suggesting he thought that BB believed his drunk intuition to be reliable?

1. I'm not really dissing "super secret tells" (although I find them highly annoying) but I'm mostly curious as to what overrode the self described "more accurate than most" tell and (I missed this post in my recent musings) but apparently the secret scumtell was negated because the highly accurate tell is something Budja has done as town. And since now the "more accurate than most" scumtells tell is something town does, I see no reason for him to keep it a secret any longer. BB even admitted that he has committed his highly accurate scumtell as town... Now can anyone really say that a vote based off of a scumtell that is more accurate than most scumtells is a seriously considered vote when the accuser has committed the same tell as town? I feel that his nearly all of his votes have been crappily justified under an illusion of scumhunting.

As a side note, his change to Anon because he felt like he needed to change (with a point to relook at it later) was never followed up on or given a second thought. BB - why did you choose Anon when you removed your vote from Jack, and what did you learn that you never commented on that prompted you to move your vote off of Anon? You had your vote there for six days with no follow up, so there must have been something?

The point I'm trying to make, llama, is one of the biggest scum identifiers is voting history/justification. Scum can make decent points a time or two (and even more often in a lot of cases) but the one thing that remains is voting history and public justifications.

xvart.

[Anon]

Player by player analysis incoming:

Blackberry : solid start, my gut screams this guy is not afraid to say what he thinks, reliable towntell in my book. Has decreased activity but the comeback is still in town territory.

Budja: One liner but also a heavy stancer. Supporting llama is good stuff. Not as reliable as BB for the less content but ok so far.

Fishythefish: Ok, Im probably biased by OMGUS but I dont like Fishy. The Raivann vote and unvote seems like an ellegant backtrack for a reason that doesnt add up. Im neutral about Raivann (see below for more details) but claiming vanilla is not the towntell Fishy is trying to paint. Im not sure if I buy the " I thought harder about Raivann, and realised that I hadn't seen anything which actually made me think "yeah, scum would do that"." And I still mantain that is really unnatural for a player to spread the suspicion between his top suspect and one of his heavy attackers but guess this could be me.

Flameaxe: Ive talked enough of Comma Police ITT. My bad feeling cant just go away. Ill have to live with it because despite of my efforts he isnt going to be lynched today.

Jack: Also a one liner solid stancer. A little wagon happy for my taste but cop gambit is reliable towntell as well.

Rest of players alter because I G2G right now.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Xvart, you've stated you dislike Blackberry's secret scumtell play, but do you think this makes him more scummy than before?

[xvart]

Xvart, you've stated you dislike Blackberry's secret scumtell play, but do you think this makes him more scummy than before?

Yes, obviously. The secret scumtell is just a piece of the having no legitimate or sound votes.

Vote 1

, 27: mallowgeno - for not answering a question; wants to see what he says;

Vote 2

, 84 - votes Budja for secret, more reliable than most scumtells, tell; later retracted because he discovered the Budja committed this tell as both town and scum, and possibly only as town; also admits he himself has committed this reliable tell as town (if that makes any sense at all);

Vote 3

, 145 - Votes Jack for not answering his question.

Vote 4

, 284 - votes for Anon because he wanted to change his vote, and said he would relook at this later (he never did);

Vote 5

, 395 - Votes Raivaan and joins the popular bandwagon for revealing that he is scum in post 387, for saying there was a scum QT (I think this was what was considered to be revealing scum). Also questions Raivaan's intentions behind commenting on his asking for Jack to be forced replaced.

Out of all of those votes, the only one that can be argued as legitimate is the last one, and that, in my opinion is highly debatable. It looks to me as more of a way to get on the Raivaan wagon than anything.

The reason I'm harping on the secret tell thing so much is because it looks to be obvious backpeddling. A tell that is more reliable than most scum tells suddenly becomes something the target does as town (and might only do as town), and also the accuser of guilty of doing as town, is hardly a more accurate tell than most scumtells. If this is not backpeddling, I don't know what is.

xvart.

[StrangerCoug]

Remind me to look into #446. The even-numbered votes look like good cases against Blackberry (somebody I had as solid town until now).

[Porochaz]

V.C. and prods going out tomorrow.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:budja