Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hi all! Looking forward to a great game.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Why make the claim now? I think that's a waste of a potential Town NK. Best case scenario is that you're now guaranteed to be in LyLo with the last Mafia and an unconfirmed Townie who've cross-voted and you have to make the final decision.

However, I'm glad we're going to skip RVS.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hoopla, that's an all-WIFOM argument. It's true that there's no motivation as scum to make that claim, HOWEVER, you were not aware that AGar would remember or bring forward the meta argument. You don't get to turn the argument around post-fact to clear yourself.

Vote: Hoopla

I hadn't thought about the prevention of Town PR deaths, and it's a good point (and no, I've never played with a PGO before).

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Congratulations shotty for derailing a perfectly good bandwagon.

I still don't like Hoopla's posts regarding the gambit AGar brought up. My vote is on Hoopla not because of the claim - I have no experience with PGOs, so if more than one or two people are saying that you claim on Day 1 as a PGO then I have to believe it. I also don't know whether claiming later in the day is the better idea or not. It seems like no matter when the claim is made it's going to generate a lot of discussion, because you have to figure out what to do with the player slot.

My problem lies in Hoopla's response to AGar's post 21. Once AGar brought up the game where you were a miller, it enabled you to tell us that you remembered X, Y, and Z about that game with no way for us to verify any of it. You've pretty much been given a pass because of it, and nothing you can say about that game and what you do/don't remember is going to be viable as defense material, at least not in my eyes. We're not able to crawl inside your head and see what you actually do remember. If AGar hadn't brought it up there's no reason to think that you'd have brought it up either. If you remember your games as well as you say you do, and "you knew he was going to bring this up" (you foresaw the possibility of this being an issue),

then you should have mentioned that game in your opening post where you claimed to cut off this line of questioning from the get-go.

All your rebuttal towards AGar does not appear to be Town motivated by this - it looks like scum-driven defense.

Now with your latest posts you're just assuming that since shotty decided to be a VI that we're suddenly going to shift attention away from you? I don't like it. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now since I don't have anything better. The claim itself is not a reason for a lynch, but the rest of it gives me pause. If Hoopla wants to convince me that she's really a PGO and not fake-claiming I want to see an abnormally large amount of scumhunting. So far all I've seen is defensiveness and a weak poke at shotty for his poor play.

@gonnano, post 36: Yes this could be AGar trying to gambit a lynch for Hoopla. However, I think that it's too early in the game for this to be effective.

Posts 63 and 64 have me considering a vote switch to shotty. I don't like the lack of reading comprehension and he's contradicted himself more times since his first post than I would have thought is humanly possible. Shotty, I can see that this is your first game on-site, but I agree with Hoopla - you need to step up your game QUICKLY. I also agree with Zach's assertion that there's no way you did NOT know that you were voting for someone who already had 3 votes on him. Putting someone at L-3 isn't horribly bad, but your reactions to all the various questions concerning that post have been absolutely atrocious.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

How is Hoopla going to fake scumhunting? It's the one thing that can't be faked for extended periods of time. If Hoopla is scum, her "scumhunting" will work against her in later days.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

G & H, post NAO please. I see you!!

I'd like to hear your thoughts on shotty's play as well as Hoopla's argument with AGar. I don't care about the original actions (the claim and the vote) because I don't really consider either of them to be particularly bad. I want to hear your feelings on the follow-up.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Interesting. Two Questions:

G&H: How positive are you that Hoopla's not pulling a gambit?

Hoopla: Why should this explanation be any more believable than what you came up with in regards to AGar's arguments against you?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm not completely convinced, TBH. Hoopla's already shown that she was aware of AGar's potentially bringing up the PGO/miller game, why not also be aware of G&H bringing up 973 and planning for it?

I don't think we're going to get anything further out of discussing it though. And my previous point still stands - Hoopla needs to actually show some analysis or I'm going to remain unconvinced as to whether she is really Town or just scum pulling the greatest gambit of all time.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

This is post 86 from Hoopla. I've cut out the non-relevant stuff:

It's far likelier in my view, that scum have taken a mostly middling view of this event, and players like redtail, ConfidAnon and Elleran are those that tick that box mostly, for me.

Almaster and Vel take neutral positions on the claim, but attack the meta arguments I debated with early on, and it feels strange how similar both their attacks were. Even though it is far too early to hunt scumpairs,

I feel confident they aren't scum together

, as it would be an odd scum play to espouse a shared view on something that has such a scope for varied opinions.

Though I will be accused of probabilistic reasoning, I think it is a reasonable guess to think I've one scum on my wagon, and it seems a tough pick to guess who, if any. The Shotty, late random vote on me was just bizarre, and reeks of VI, and usually I think I'm good at figuring out these characters, but I don't know. I think one of Vel/Almaster is likelier to be scum, and it's an avenue I want to pursue,

because I've derived associative tells between them which gives more information if one flips scum.

And bolded the important points. I don't seem to recall taking a neutral position on the claim. In fact I believe I said that "I don't really consider [it] to be particularly bad", meaning I'm ok with the claim itself.

My problem has

always

been with the way in which you attempted to "prove" that you were not scum fake-claiming. The only proof we're going to get is if you get lynched or killed and we see an alignment reveal. You don't get to paint yourself as pro-town with your "proof" statements (see post 102 for an example).

My issue with the above quotes is that in one sentence you're saying that Alamaster and I are not scum together, yet in the very next paragraph you're voting for one of us so that you can clear up any "associative tells" that you're seeing. If we're not scum together, then how are you getting associative tells? Do you expect there to be 2 scum groups in a mini normal game?

Given this inconsistency, it makes MUCH more sense for you to vote for the people that you explicitly state are scummy - redtail, ConfidAnon and Elleran. But you're not doing that. You're voting for someone with a VERY weak reason because it's riddled with inconsistencies and then subtly nudging the town with your "I'd really like support for this" statement.

Several people have expressed the opinion that they don't think I'm scummy, and your latest post hedges your vote by saying "I'd likely be voting you now, but I want to hear from Vel first, before I consider shifting my vote.". Sorry, but that's too opportunistic for me - it makes your vote on me sound like you're testing the waters to see how far you can push things.

I'm glad you're scumhunting, but I don't like the inconsistencies in your play. My vote stands for now.

As for Alamaster: I don't understand AGar's post 89 that started it - not saying I disagree yet, I just need clarification on a few points.

I completely agree that he should develop his own ideas and not ride coattails. But the commentary about the vig killing the potential VI I don't understand. Sorry for this guys, I don't get out of the Newbie queue much. I thought that vigs taking out the troublesome Townies Day 1 was exactly the correct play.

If it is correct play, then am I right in assuming that the vote from Agar is only because AGM is riding a vote? If it's not the correct play please enlighten me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@Hoopla, please answer my points in 107. You've switched votes for no reason, but in your lastest post I'm still scummy enough to warrant a vote. I'd rather have Town lay out their arguments so that the rest of us can see what you're thinking, assuming you're Town. You can answer that as well while you're at it.

I get the feeling that the Alamaster/AGar battle is a Town v. Town scenario. AGar seems to have voted for AGM for a rather weak reason, but it was based on AGM's poor explanation of his attitude toward Vigging. Now it seems as though AGM has got his hair up and is going after AGar for equally weak reasoning and is tunneling.

@Zach and redtail: what do you think of the argument between AGar and AGM now that you're starting to see more of their points? The initial points you both brought against him were based on his statement of an illogical claim AND you were agreeing with AGar. Do you still think AGar's points hold up?

@shotty: If you're going to be deliberately unhelpful, please replace out. You're not helping your team (whichever team you're on) in any way, shape, or form with your "scum" claim. You can better explain your stance on claiming (which wasn't ever even an issue until you made it one) without being so inflammatory.

@Elleran: please clarify this statement in 112, "I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now."

G&H and KKN need to vote, with reasons. We can't analyze your voting patterns if you don't have any. I fully agree with Hoopla here - we need everyone to take firm stances on every day. There's no reason to withhold your vote, or at least express a strong FoS, this early in the game.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm not excited about AGM's 110. The explanation of what his argument focused on (the PGO claim) doesn't fit with his true argument about the vote (the meta read). Coupled with the fairly shoddy attempt to redirect to redtail and Zach makes this a horrible post. AGM seems to deliberately misrep redtail by leaving out ALL the original content in his post and quoting the "in short I agree with AGar" statement.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: AlamasterGM

EBWOPreview: Zach: Do you honestly think shotty is scum enough to waste a lynch on him?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm on vacation in FL and have limited access. I should be able to get on once a day. From a quick skim from my post yesterday, Elleran's 157 seems the most worrisome. Why are you worried about how much attention you're getting? G&H is actively lurking and isn't doing much scum hunting. I think shotty just needs to be ignored like all the other VIs on the site. KKN's lack of a vote and unwillingness to place one is suboptimal play, but not necessarily scummy.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

meh. Sounds like PR fishing. If, statistically, we're dealing with only 1 protection role, why give the scum any more info?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

meh. Sounds like PR fishing. If, statistically, we're dealing with only 1 protection role, why give the scum any more info?

Statistically it is HIGHLY likely the town has ONE protection role. The only way we give away information is if we catch Shotty fakeclaiming.

Right. That's what I was saying. Statistically we're only dealing with one Doc-type role. So why are we going to give the scum 100% confirmation that shotty is definitely our Doc?

If Shotty is town, scum know our protection role is Shotty. The town doesn't know this currently.
If Shotty is scum, it is true we are possibly sacrificing our real protection role to 'confirm' Shotty as scum, but this puts us in no worse position than we are in now if Shotty

is

a doctor. Except we now have the bonus of having a scum caught Day 1.

The only way this backfires is if there is ZERO or TWO town protection roles. This only counts as rolefishing if Shotty's claim is false, Vel. And if the sacrifice of our protection role 'proves' Shotty as scum, I'd like to do it. Doctors are not game-breaking roles for town. A Day 1 scum lynch is much more preferable. And then conversely, if nobody counters Shotty's claim, this at least 'proves' he is town and gives the town the same information scum already has.

So effectively this strategy is going to verify shotty's Town-aligned status and forgo our need to even look at him further, sealing off potential safe claims for later for scum (worst case) and possibly net us a scum (best case)?

Ok. I understand where you're coming from now. I don't understand how you got 14% chance from AGar's situation, but just from gut the situation AGar outlined doesn't feel very likely. I can go along with a claim strategy, especially if it allows us to ignore the shotty conundrum. I need to go back and look at AGM and where all the votes came from all of a sudden.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Are you kidding? -_-
Has Vel get popped yet? Otherwise, popcorn to Vel-Rahn Koon.

Not a protective role.

Just got out of the car an hour ago. I'll reread from the 22nd on again and see if everyone has claimed, otherwise I'll choose the next person tomorrow.


Vel

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I spent 4 hours in between working today making a comment post and apparently it didn't post. I'll see if it can be retrieved off my laptop tomorrow because I don't think I can retype it all without missing stuff.

The most important point I want to make is that I feel that AGM's explanation makes sense to me and consequently I am removing my vote. I don't like Elleran's posting at all and I am willing to vote for him when we get closer to deadline. But I won't do so now as Hoopla unvoted to keep discussion going and to prevent an accidental hammer (which I agree with doing).

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Oh, and I don't agree with derailing the Elleran wagon just to get G&H to participate. It's too late in the day and an Elleran lynch will give us much more information than a G&H lynch will.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

First, I refuse to acknowledge that my 'fencesitting' is a scummy behavior. I am simply studying the game and I haven't found anyone to sooo suspicious that he must be lynched. I believe that I have not done anything scummy.

However, it seems that the town is strongly geared into a wagon against me. Since the most of the town thinks that I am scum, I will not offer any resistance. No dirty WIFOMS or fakeclaims. No pointing fingers. I see that it is my time to die, and my death is a pro-town move.

I claim VT.

Let is be done.

This is atrocious. we've been at this for almost 2 weeks and you don't have ANY suspicions worthy of lynching? You do know how to play this game, correct? The only way Town lynches scum on Day 1 is if the Mafia screws up royally or we get extra super lucky, so not finding anyone who is "sooo supsicious that he must be lynched" is the norm. You have scummy people in mind? You go after them. If you don't like their answers to your questions, you vote for them. That's how this game is played. There's too many people in this game with this attitude (Looking at you G&H and KKN )

Gheez, I came here to get away from the Newbie queue for a while

Let's do this: we have just under 37 hours until deadline. Why don't you give us your top 3 with super awesome reasons WHY and that way we can have something to go on tomorrow. If you're as consigned to being lynched as a Town player as you claim you are, then HELP YOUR TEAM - the more info we have the better.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I really, REALLY want Elleran to get on here and give us a list before we lynch him. I'll be around tomorrow morning to add my vote before deadline.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Okay, I will grant Vel's request.

Let's do this: we have just under 37 hours until deadline. Why don't you give us your top 3 with super awesome reasons WHY and that way we can have something to go on tomorrow. If you're as consigned to being lynched as a Town player as you claim you are, then HELP YOUR TEAM - the more info we have the better.

My suspicion list:
1. Hoopla: Her claim has made me doubt her motives. I don't know what her real role is, but give the chance, I want to hammer Hoopla before she reaches LyLo.

2. G&H: Why don't you want to continue the claim? You didn't even continue the popcorn.

3. AGar: You seem to be the person most linked to Hoopla due to your early involvement in the game with her PGO claim. If Hoopla is scum, I think you are as well.

Vote Hoopla

I understand you're probably sick of the game at this point, but one-liners don't constitute super-awesome. They barely constitute give-a-f#(*

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Oh I'm ok with going after G&H tomorrow. The lack of wanting to forward the claim is the latest issue with him. But derailing the current wagon in favor of a half-ass attempt to go after someone else for what amounts to a policy lynch with only 2 days to deadline is unhelpful, to say the least.

Vote: Elleran

L-1

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

UNVOTE:

Eh we have 26 hours. I'll wait.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

...and eventually "mistakenly hammering" Elleran.

Vote: Zachrulez

CA, can you link me to this post please? I don't see it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Top suspects at the moment, Vel?

Right now, G&H. I don't like the IIoA for the majority of the day yesterday, coupled with the refusal to participate in the claim. I think CA seemed to drift through the game as well yesterday, so I don't have a good read there. You're in there as well - I'm still not completely satisfied as to your motivations for the fake claim, and I can see you drifting through to the endgame and winning as scum due to all the early attention. That's on the back burner though since I don't have anything concrete.

I need to have a think about what the night kill means, although it may be too early in the game to get anything useful out of it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel, what is your opinion on bandwagon analysis and it's effectiveness?

I'm not sure it will be overly helpful this early in the game, but combined with voting patterns and other markers it can be very helpful. I don't think any one thing can stand on its own though.

How do you view the make-up of the final Day 1 vote count and it's participants? Almaster was a competing wagon for quite a while during Day 1 - do you think that makes him more likely to be scum, as his wagon was in competition with Elleran, but lost?

The last two votes are a wash for me, as they were done to secure a lynch. Because of this view, I REALLY don't like CA's attempt to use it against Zach. The other stuff he's got against Zach is fine, but I'm not ok with that point. I have to do an analysis to get anything further for you. I know that we only have two weeks and I agree that we need to pick things up, but I have a presentation to give tomorrow, so I'm focusing on that for now.

WRT the alamaster wagon, see my views from yesterday. Especially in light of the AGar flip it tends to reinforce my view that it was a Town v. Town "tunneling spat".

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@G&H: no reason, I simply forgot to unvote. Now a question for you:

If this is true,

I would have posted less than ten minutes after the moment Espeonage closed the thread

... For my standards that wasn't "too long". Anyway, I'll start with the things I wanted to say then.

then that means that most of this was written 5 days ago or so. Why did it take you more than 48 hours after the game opened for Day 2 to post this?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I've gotten my prod. Sorry guys I had no time this weekend to post, and I tried to get to something today and it didn't happen. I know we're on 2-week days - I'm going to get

something

useful by tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

G&H, what's your previous mafia experience before this game (aside from your Newbie game)? I have a line of thought but I need this answered first.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I don't understand why you think that if one is a mafioso, one HAS TO lie. Can't one just not take into consideration one's role and make honest observations based on what one reads in the thread (and probably what one has read in past games of the other players)?

The Mafia HAS TO lie because of the nature of the game. Unlike face-to-face Mafia, we can't look at your facial expressions to see if you're trying to feed us a line of bull. The ONLY thing we have is what you say. Therefore, the online version of this game relies almost exclusively on ANALYSIS, or lack thereof. Mafia can say all they want, but what is normally lacking is good analysis of other players and what they've said and how they feel about the other players. The other players quickly pick up on this lack of analysis (look at what's happening to you right now), however. It is therefore imperative that the Mafia give that analysis so that they can

appear

Town to everyone else. However, the Mafia MUST, to some degree, falsify every bit of analysis they give. They KNOW that whomever they're focused on, that person is 100% guaranteed to be Town (barring bussing, etc. of course). Finding those tidbits is the hallmark of a good scumhunter. The only other options open to the Mafia are to keep quiet (lurk), or give out information disguised as analysis (often called IIOA, or Information Instead Of Analysis). This is the entire reason that days on this site are as long as they are. You need "analysis" from EVERY player so that you can look at it in light of later information and deduce the likelihood of someone being scum.

The vast majority of your Day 1 posts are VERY light on analysis. There are a few points here and there, but by and large you avoid taking a strong stance on anyone at all. In addition, you're the ONLY player who didn't cast a single vote. By contrast, look at redtail. Most people here would probably call him Town because of the amount of analysis he gives on the other players in the game. He states what he thinks of people's SPECIFIC play and why he feels that makes them scum or not. And if he is Town,

he's probably being HONEST

.

So, if you want to avoid being lynched, how about you give us your HONEST opinion of the top 3 most likeliest people to be Mafia, and WHY. If you're Town, you can't be anything BUT honest, because all you know for sure is your own role and no one elses'. If you give us your thoughts on who is mafia and why, then that IS being honest. Of course you're going to be wrong in your reads at times - even the best players get it wrong. But that doesn't stop them from helping their side. I think you're confusing "honest" with "being detrimental to the town by confusing others with your opinion". You can't be "dishonest" when you give us your analysis as Town, because your analysis is nothing but opinion. As scum, you must (to some degree) be dishonest with your opinion, because that's the only way you can cause a mislynch.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: "

trying not to be

detrimental to the town by confusing others with your opinion"

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel-Rahn Koon, once again, I'll agree with gonnano that a mafioso doesn't HAVE TO lie. Let's imagine a mafioso in a particular game who, from reading the thread, gets the feeling that Player X looks the most suspicious. So the mafioso says that and might even vote for Player X. Technically, the mafioso would know that Player X is an innocent townsperson but from reading the thread the mafioso finds Player X the most suspicious. So if the mafioso says "I find Player X the most suspicious", wouldn't that be honest?

This is nitpicking and I'm willing to let it go. It's not getting us towards the goal of lynching scum.

Also, Vel-Rahn Koon, recently I have been wondering about you. In the beginning you were quite active; you weren't willing to get rid of drmyshottyizsik - good things. But you have been relatively inactive lately and you still haven't answered my question whether your comments towards ConfidAnon are also valid for Zachrulez. It seems to me like you're somehow avoiding to comment on Zachrulez.

Sorry G&H, can you link me to the post please. I'll be happy to answer it and at the same time I'll provide more of my read wrt Zach.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

ANYWAY, NONE OF THIS EVEN MATTERS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE ARE LYNCHING ZACHRULEZ BECAUSE HE IS SCUM.

Please explain to me why Zach is scum and ConfidAnon is not. I think CA has flown way under the radar here for essentially playing the same game that Zach has.
VOTE: ConfidAnon
Want to come out and play?

I agree with this, re: CA flying under the radar. I'm also with shotty when he says that we have more than 1 scum. If I had to go off of basic theory, Zach's play looks scummy. I'm not a big fan of meta, seeing as how I got burned by using it in another game, but I don't recall Zach playing like this. What troubles me is posts like 462 have got fairly good points in it and make me wonder if the Zach wagon isn't a goose chase. Either way, I think that suddenly veering off course to go after someone who's playing the same way is anti-town.

@G&H: with regards to my last post, there's a problem I thought of with your reasoning. The scum may be honest in saying that he finds player X scummy, but at it's core that is a complete falsehood, because the scum KNOWS that player X is NOT scummy, because he's not on the scum's team.

Besides, this isn't what I was talking about. In fact, this is a very MINOR point I brought up. My post dealt with the need for Town to give analysis so that they can "prove" that they're town. I think you've basically ignored my entire point and focused on the one thing you could wishy-washy explain away. I'm going to go back and re-read that big post of yours, and if I don't see analysis I'm voting for you.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

It's already been mentioned, but I agree with Hoopla and gonnano that the Zach flip makes G&H more likely town, considering that Zach was on G&H from the get-go for day 2. I understand where gonnano is coming from, and there's nothing I can do about Zach mentioning me except to step up my game today and try to make as good a case for myself as town as possible. I realize that I was rather quiet for Day 2. Let me look things over and see what I can come up with.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: Looking at the voting record, it probably also clears Alamaster to a degree, as Zach focused on AGM quite a bit on Day 1. This is strictly off voting record, and no analysis yet.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ok, my next best read for Mafia is KKN, based on the following:

In Zach's iso post 34, he says that every point CA made against him (Zach) could be turned around, and that it's interesting that KKN isn't interested in CA, only Zach. I think this also goes a long way toward clearing CA as well, as it doesn't make sense for Zach to go after one of his partners at this point in the game (half-way through page 19, about 5 days left to day 2 deadline). It makes more sense for Zach, who's already in hot water, to stay as far away from his partners as possible. This sounds a bit contradictory, considering what else is in that iso post wrt KKN, but none of that looks like anything substantial. They point fingers at each other, but it doesn't ever seem to go anywhere. If KKN really thought Zach was scum, why not vote him? He basically votes for G&H for his playstyle (iso post 14), but then comes back and defends him (iso post 19) wrt gonnano's posts against G&H from earlier. If KKN really thought that Zach was scum, this was the post to unvote G&H and vote Zach, since he's got a wall of text towards Zach, which Zach answers with his previously-mentioned iso post 34. This looks to me like Zach and KKN are throwing softball questions at each other to show suspicion for later and gain town cred, while not contributing to the demise of one of their own.

I thought at the time that Hoopla's iso post 61 was a bit much and it was far too early to put that kind of analysis into the day 1 happenings, but there are usable items in there. Especially the breakdown of the competing wagons. I think with Zach's flip, I'm leaning more towards Alamaster being Town. Zach voted for 4 people the entire game: Shotty, AGM, Elleran, and G&H. Two of them have flipped as Town, and G&H is strongly viewed as Town now because of Zach's interactions with him yesterday. That leaves AGM. Zach's play looked like he was riding bandwagons to easy lynches, hopping on and off the shotty and AGM wagons two times each before casting a deadline vote for Elleran. This doesn't look to me like he was going after AGM-Scumbuddy. Therefore I'm looking more at KKN than CA as Hoopla outlined under the "If AGM is Town" section.

My final point is that KKN has only voted for two people - AGM (Day 1, late) and G&H (Day 2, late). I view both of AGM and G&H as likely Town, AND Zach has voted for both of them as well. The only niggling bit is that I wouldn't think that KKN-Scum would follow Zach that closely with voting (especially on Day 2), but at the time KKN added his vote to G&H Zach only had 4 votes and we were only on page 16 (Day 2 started on page 15), so it's possible that KKN didn't consider that the Zach wagon would run it's course, considering the competing wagons yesterday. We also didn't get a vote count until page 17, so it's also possible that KKN was unaware of how many votes Zach had at the time and that following him like that could be an issue.

VOTE: KKN

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hey Vel, would you be okay with a redtail lynch?

I've gotten Town vibes off redtail all game, so I haven't really been paying attention to him. I need to go over his play before I can give you a definitive answer.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Redtail: I fully understand that my defense of Zach puts me in the worst spot possible, and I'm ok with it to a degree. I do think it's a bit foolish to think that VRK-scum would defend Zach with 4 votes on him, but that's an all-WIFOM argument and I really don't have anything else. There's nothing I can do about Zach's buddying.

I can see what you're saying wrt zach and KKN, but I disagree with his post. I was also happy to consider G&H as town because I thought that Zach bussing him was too much when it happened, but still I'm only seeing walls of text with no commitment towards any one or two players as being more likely scum in his eyes. I really don't like G&H's play.

I know I'm not helping out in any way, shape or form. I'm quite happy with the massclaim and the way Hoopla's gambit worked out. To be brutally honest I think that I should be the lynch for today, since I'm the one that most people have the most questions about wrt alignment. I DO NOT want this taken as an appeal to emotion. I'm dead serious - if I'm not going to be able to help out and I'm just going to carry suspicion with me into the end game then I should go, today.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel, who would you choose to lynch besides yourself?

Well I'd really rather not be lynched, to be honest. But, considering that I did in fact defend Zach to a degree, and I've gotten varying degrees of suspicion form 3 players (two of whom starting from day 1) I think my staying in the game will always be a big question mark and I'd rather not go into LyLo with that situation.

If I had to pick right now I would say KKN, then G&H. We have left in the game:

redtail896
ConfidAnon
Hoopla
Good and Honest
gonnano
Kid Know Nothing
AlamasterGM
Vel-Rahn Koon

Honestly besides me they're the only ones left. I think Hoopla's TWO gambits is too over the top for scum to do, and if Hoopla is scum I'm just going to have to live with it. I've had redtail pegged as Town since day 1 because he's asking pointed questions and being very open. I think both CA and AGM are clear due to their interactions with Zach. My only ??? is gonnano. I get a town vibe, but I haven't looked at him very closely.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I don't think VRK's post means that he's giving up, exactly. It's just as likely IMO that he's found himself incriminated by Zach so he's trying one last tactic to convince people that he's town. I notice that he hasn't actually voted for himself yet... maybe saving it so he can self-hammer if he has to?

No, I will not vote for myself unless we're minutes from deadline and threatened with a No Lynch. And you can drop the tactic talk. I explicitly stated I don't want it treated as an AtE. As of now, I'm basically a distraction to the Town so I should go NOW so that I don't continue in such fashion.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm more in favor of lynching VRK today, considering that we would get more information from his flip. If I don't think I can get the support I need to make that happen, I will consider switching to the CA wagon.

What information do you think you'll get from my flip?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry, forgot to start the claim process.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I've gotten prodded and I'm drowning IRL between research and teaching. I will have something to comment on over the last 3 pages tomorrow. Brief skimming, I don't see a Town/Town lovers pair, especially if we have 3 mafia. I would be more inclined to think it would be T/T lovers if there were only 2 mafia. But also remember that Espeonage has a lot of his experience playing Mafia on another site, so things may not be "standard" for how it's done here. I'm inclined to vote for either of gonnano or G&H and take the chance on there being a Town/Mafia pair (which is the standard way to make a lovers pair, isn't it?) than to go off any other data for the day.

I don't think that we necessarily can get anything out of Hoopla's track targets - I don't think we'd see an investigation-type role in a game without some way for the Mafia to counter it (via Godfather or similar), so I'm not sure we can take the trackings at face value. It's fully possible that one of Hoopla's targets is "investigation" immune.

Gonnano is at L-1 right now. I will wait to vote until tomorrow so I can do more in the way of posting and maybe catch up to everyone else.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm willing to drop a hammer vote.

From reading over the last few pages, I get more of a sense that gonnano is town. And Hoopla (?) brings up an interesting point that G&H is rather quiet until it looks like he might get taken out. I'm not excited about voting for a town-read player, but I think it's the best bet if his partner has a probability of being mafia. It just seems really strange that there are PRs in the Town (albeit weaker ones) and there's nothing to counteract it on the Mafia's side. Especially given that one of the Mafia can potentially be taken out by lynching a Townie.

Now that I've typed that out, it could be that this is the attempt to balance a 3/9 setup, which is very Mafia-favored from the start. I think G&H has gotten away with participating without really participating (yes, I realize this is the pot calling the kettle black), so I'm ok with lynching gonnano only in that it will get rid of another potentially hard-to-read player at the mininmum, and potentially net a 2nd scum.

I think biggest suspect for tomorrow is KKN. CA and AGM are me is clear due to interactions with Zach. If Hoopla's scum I think the town has already lost Same for redtail.

I'm with redtail. Either G&H and I are both town and there is one scum left, or G&H is scum and there is one other scum. Either way it ends up in a matchup of one scum against four townies.

Assuming this is true, and we're not dealing with a G&H-Town/gonnano-Town pair with

2 scum

left (which puts us in LyLo tomorrow) I will be voting for myself to exit the game so I don't get carried over into LyLo. As I said, I think KKN is most likely scum (after G&H), but CA is possible and can't be ruled out.

I'll give everyone until later tonight (around 8 PM Eastern) to make final comments then I'll hammer. I have to teach from 2-5:30 then I have a meeting from 5:30 - 6:30, so realistically there's no way I'll be here before 8-ish.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Besides, if gonnano/G&H both flip town, there is an outside chance we're in lylo already tomorrow, so you MUST try and survive for the town's sake if you're town.

You can slap down a hammer on gonnano now.

Trust me, I won't just give in if gonnano and G&H both flip town, because you're exactly right, it's probably LyLo at that point. As I said, I'm only going to get myself out of the way if we have the "free" lynch.


VOTE: gonnano

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think the most likely remaining scum is KKN. I think CA is clear due to interactions with Zach, but I know others are pointing that direction. I'm all for getting me out of the game, considering that scum are going to keep me around.

KKN, your first post today is crap. Other than "leading a teammate" you have nothing, and even that is nonsense, considering that he didn't follow my advice at all. There were no softballed questions, nothing of the sort. You're making up most of that post.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel, do you think that G&H would have sent in a night kill, based on the playstyle he/she plays with?

Apathetically both day AND night? No, I don't think that's possible. It's foolish to think that Mafia would give up their main method of forwarding their win condition just to satisfy a playstyle that has most of its precepts in the Day phase.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

What's the point of the question? There has to be one more Mafia out there, or the game would be over by now.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The point of the question is that G&H most likely wouldn't have voted for the NK. It'd break his playstyle, which he has been very adament on not breaking. He wouldn't even vote, unless absolutely required. Given that, wouldn't G&H likely leave the kill to their partner?

It's obvious there is another goon around, one that most likely doesn't have any immunities if we look at the game as being balanced.

G&H probably wouldn't send in a night kill. Does anyone else agree with this?

Again, what's the point?

Also, what I said at the beginning of the day was a brief look at your interactions and gut feeling. My vote stands for your interactions with Zach and general lurking throughout the days.

Well I can understand both, and there's nothing I can do about either as of now, but this list is nothing like what you said at the beginning of the day.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

To be fair, the first post I made did say "Sticking with what I said yesterday" right after the vote.

The point is, if G&H wouldn't send in the vote and if in your eyes, I am scum, how would that kill have gone through? I still really don't understand your case against me. From what I read yesterday, you find me scummy for my unwillingness to throw my vote around and for interactions with Zach, correct?

I'm leaving for the day, and I'll be back to answer the last sentence tomorrow, but for now:

How in God's name does G&H not sending in a kill mean that you're NOT scum? The entire line is pointless. If there were 2 Mafia left as of yesterday, then

IT DOESN'T MATTER

if G&H wouldn't send in the NK or not, because he had a partner who would.

I'm with AGM all the way - this reeks of insider info. This says that you and G&H had a conversation either pregame, N1, or N2 in which G&H said that he didn't want to send the kill because it would go against his meta. This does NOTHING to clear you, and goes a LONG, LONG WAY towards catching the last scum.

As I said, I'll go over my case on you again later. There's a big misrep in that last sentence.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think KKN is going off the Tracker results where he didn't visit anyone.

If the only scum remaining are GH and KKN, and GH doesn't vote, then KKN couldn't be scum because he didn't visit, and there was a kill.

I want to read some things when I have more time, but if I had to vote right now it would be for VRK.

Ok that interpretation makes sense, but it also seems like someone is trying too hard to clear himself. Gut is telling me that CA would be rather foolish for pointing this out, seeing as helping KKN's case along does nothing but put eyes on him after I've been lynched. This is tangential evidence, but it's another point in CA-Town's favor. KKN is the last scum.

I'm fine with being the lynch for today, as long as KKN is gone tomorrow.

As for KKN's comment from a few days ago:

To be fair, the first post I made did say "Sticking with what I said yesterday" right after the vote.

The point is, if G&H wouldn't send in the vote and if in your eyes, I am scum, how would that kill have gone through? I still really don't understand your case against me. From what I read yesterday, you find me scummy for my unwillingness to throw my vote around and for interactions with Zach, correct?

I never said anything about throwing or not throwing votes around. Before today, you've voted TWICE, hopping on a late AGM wagon for the first one on Day 1. For your 2nd vote, you voted for G&H, a known scum. The

only other player who did that was Zach

, also a known scum. It's not about whether you're vote hopping or not, it's about why you voted when and for who(m?) you voted. Additionally, you're voting me for lurking and voting little content, etc. but I do believe you're guilty of the same things. Your contributions haven't been all that stellar either.

I'm ready to end the day whenever you folks are. I will not vote for myself, but if it really comes down to me vs. KKN, I'd rather go first so that I'm not around tomorrow to muck up the waters.



I agree with AGM's 782. Redtail your logic doesn't hold, and I think that points towards CA being town as well.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VOTE: KKN

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Redtail, AGM and CA are clear IMO. It's either KKN or me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

What the hell are you talking about? If I'm Town, I don't care if I get lynched today and the (to me) other obvious candidate gets lynched tomorrow - Town win.

If I'm scum, I'm basically giving up - Town win.

You do the math (if you're Town).

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

How are you even contemplating CA given what you said to Redtail above? Come on AGM, don't lose it now.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VRK, why do you think CA is town?

CA, where are you?

I'm addressing your case right now, so give me a little bit.

See my previous post.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

As to VRK, telling me that I'm guilty because I voted G&H. That is an incredibly awful point. Like others have said, would it be likely for all three scum to bus each other? Why would I vote G&H with Zach if we were scum-buddies? I'm missing your point.

That's an incredibly awful amount of WIFOM. G&H's play was detrimental to whatever side he was playing for, since he doesn't quite yet understand how to contribute without actually contributing. It just sucks to be you and Zach that he was a Mafia member. It actually makes perfect sense for both you and Zach to vote him to gain Town cred. He was going to be voted out anyway, why not make yourself look better?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@VRK: do you then object to my reason for clearing CA?

I could be coy and say "well I have to, don't I?". But I won't. Yes I object to your reason to an extent. I've been considering CA clear from Zach's flip, so to me this is more of a "going around your @$$ to get to your elbow" type of analysis. As you said in the post you're referring to, it could be possible. It could also be possible that Zach-G&H-KKN are the team and the same situation is happening. Your analysis applies to either setup, really. It could be possible that none of this is correct and you're just wrong.

I don't know what's right. It could very well be that CA IS the last scum, but I don't think it is. From my PoV, it's either KKN or CA, and that means that, no matter who the last scum is, there was a lot of bussing going on, whether we look at your analysis or mine. I don't think it's unreasonable for Zach and KKN to have started bussing G&H, especially when they did, considering how much flak G&H drew from everyone for his playstyle. And I'm really not considering your point about CA and the "too much bussing" because CA is clear to me from his interactions with Zach, so that whole line of thought is not on my radar.

As a final point, consider that optimal play for Mafia is to go ahead and bus their partner(s) if they need to. Why draw more suspicion to yourself by defending your partner when it looks like he could be going down? That makes no sense. If your partner is acting scummy, you bus him. You act just like you would if you were town. Your "too much bussing" issue could just as easily be arising because, let's face it, both of the Mafia members caught so far have been scummy. As the 3rd mafia member, you're not going to sit around and ignore the scumminess like the proverbial white elephant in the room, you're going to do something about it.

It might help to have CA's opinion in this whole mess as well.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I can't answer that question KKN. I'm not you. And that's just more WIFOM anyway. Just because it may or may not make sense doesn't mean that's not exactly what happened, does it? And I'm really not focused on you for any one specific thing anyway. I've already listed my arguments. As I'm thinking about it, I'm down to process of elimination more than any one "tell". redtail is obvtown. AGM and CA are clear to me by their interactions with Zach. That leaves you. The only one, to me, that has a chance to be mafia other than you is CA, but my reads of Zach's attacks on him don't paint that picture. I think it's much more likely, however "unlikely" by the various analyses that are out there, that you are the last Mafia. Vote following Zach. Going after G&H. Expressing suspicion of Zach and not going after him when he was a much clearer candidate. You trying to argue one point of the puzzle is not going to help your case. The fact that you're arguing the one point that everyone else is hung up on means that you're grasping at straws, trying your best to redirect suspicion away from yourself.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

AGM, you haven't even given any reasons why you think I'm scum. How can I improve when I don't know why you think I'm scummy?

Plus, why is it that as soon as attention shifts my way, the biggest proponent of the case against me manages to lurk away?

I'm here and it's only been 2 days, so don't get your panties in a bunch. People have RL too.

I've got nothing else to say at this point. I'm waiting on a CA replacement, unless there's something I missed that needs answering.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Redtail and Equinox, I want you to think about what you're saying. If I am the last scum left, and I'm asking for my lynch, then the game is over. There's no way this is a 4-scum mafia game, can we agree on that?

If I'm town, and I'm asking for my lynch, it's because I was too quiet the first few days, got a LOT of suspicion, and realize that I am going to be a detriment to the town in endgame.

Either way, lynching me is a pro-Town move. It's the best move to make at this point while the move is still possible. If you wait until LyLo you'll always have a nagging doubt about whether I'm town or not. The fact that you're both still discussing this, especially you redtail, means that I should be the one to go. It's not a martyr card, it's the most logical play.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The WIFOM you're making here is

vicious

.

The only way we can actually find out the sincerity of your martyr card is to lynch you, but the very nature of the card makes us not want to do that. Like you said, it's a very pro-town move, and our top priority is to lynch scum, not town. I'm just rather hung up on this because I know scum would be very averse to suggesting their own lynch at this point, but the move is so pro-town that it's an attractive prospect.

Sigh... I may be ready at this point to oblige your request. I'll think about this and get back to it possibly tomorrow.

Ok, stop thinking and just do it already. There's nothing to think about. If you have any doubt about me, you should lynch me today WHILE IT'S NOT LYLO. How hard is this? Geez people come on already. I can't imagine we have more than 2 or 3 days before deadline as it is.

Yes, top priority IS to lynch scum. But, if you don't lynch me today, how easy is it going to be to pick between me and whoever else is the top contender tomorrow?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Equinox, why AGM? I get a town read due to Zach interactions. Your post 835 tends to put you in a bind, since you're clearing everyone except yourself if this game goes to a Day 5, and from that I'm again putting town points in the CA/Equinox column as I don't see that as a scum move. From my PoV, KKN has to be the last scum.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I realize that we have to No Lynch here, but I want to let redtail chime in as well.

I'm not happy about being taken into LyLo against my wishes. I think it was a big mistake and I think that the last scum has to be Equinox at this point, because you have to take a scummier-looking player than yourself into lylo, so that you can mislynch. As I've said, redtail is obvtown, and I don't think AGM is scum. Equinox forced a LyLo situation with me in it by lynching KKN, ESPECIALLY AFTER I ASKED TO BE LYNCHED YESTERDAY. The discussion about my "martyr" posts started early enough (3 or 4 days before deadline) that we could have switched to lynch me. The fact that Equinox took KKN out says to me that she's the last scum and is trying to make sure there's someone who she can work against.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The no kill last night serves NO purpose. It doesn't forward the scum's agenda in the slightest. If they had killed last night, or if it goes down No Kill, No Lynch, scum kill, then the end results are exactly the same. There's no extra suspicion to heap on anyone by not killing someone, there's nothing to gain other than making things muddier than they already are.

Therefore, we have to conclude that the scum either forgot to submit a kill, or submitted a no kill just to f#($*%& with everyone. I don't see there being the possibility of another Doc in the game, not at this point. Was the night phase last night a full 72 hours, or did it end early (full 72 = forgotten submission, early = submitted No Kill?)?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I have something to add to Equi's last after it's been answered.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Honestly, I don't remember what I wanted to add from 870, sorry for that.

@Equi: can you explain how the No Kill does/doesn't benefit the players you mentioned in 866? I'm not wrapping my brain around it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I don't put a lot of read time into the game past day 1, although I think I should. I try to keep up as much as possible in the beginning, but I find myself burning out with trying to do too much. I tend to focus a lot more on the game at the end, where it's really important to get it right. That's when I tend to do rereads and whatnot.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Equi, can you answer post 873 for me please? The Mod is V/LA, so we may have time for you to post it before thread lock.

I haven't looked at the link you posted yet, but if that's true, then why didn't KKN SAY that he read that?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: That last sentence is a bit rhetorical - I'm not actually expecting an answer.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm here. I think I'm waiting more on tomorrow than anything else, but we have two people who are in process of doing rereads so I'm not particularly keen on dropping a hammer yet.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I hate being the deciding vote. I need to do a thorough re-read to make sure I get this right so give me a few days. I will try to get it done sooner rather than later, but I have to teach two classes this week, I have my son's cub scout meeting, and we're going up to Blacksburg to watch the VT vs. WFU football game Saturday. Please be patient.


Vel

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Honestly it's not surprising that Redtail was the NK - I'm surprised we had the No Lynch vs. a Redtail death. No matter. AGM I look forward to your case.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys, I'm not getting a read done until Sunday, earliest. I will have thoughts up by Monday at the latest so that there's time to discuss before deadline.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm here still working on the read through. Will get something up soon

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Equinox, clarify this statement for me please:

Also, I'm curious how much everybody thinks we should care about Hoopla's tracker result on KKN.

It's a "meh" thing for me. If scum can choose who submits the kill -- and apparently they can -- No Action results are null.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Equinox, clarify this statement for me please:

Also, I'm curious how much everybody thinks we should care about Hoopla's tracker result on KKN.

It's a "meh" thing for me. If scum can choose who submits the kill -- and apparently they can -- No Action results are null.

A moment of incredible stupidity (on my part).

My thought process at the time was when Hoopla did the track, there were two scum, so KKN could have easily shifted the submission responsibility to G&H, who was already under attack for posting huge IoA/IioA walls and was likely to get lynched after Zachrulez. With that in mind, I decided that Hoopla's track result probably didn't mean anything.

I'll look/respond/laugh at AlmasterGM's wall later.

What led you to the realization that scum can choose who submits the kill (as evidenced by the "apparently they can" statement)?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Seriously, though, AlmasterGM cannot say he has no responsibility here, either. He pushed a lynch on KKN ("How would KKN have just thought of G&H's personality out of the blue? Gotta be insider information!") that was disproved waaaaay back on Day 1 when G&H posted about his playing style.

Equi, do you know what post this was? I attacked KKN for the same reason (seemed like insider information) and I didn't (and still don't) remember this post. IIRC I went looking for something when this was brought up initially by KKN, thinking that G&H had said something and he had seen it, but I never found it. Since I didn't find it I went on the assumption that KKN was having OOT conversations with G&H (ie: scum quicktopic), because let's face it, that is rather out of the blue.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The hardest part I'm having with all of this is the competing wagons on Day 1. I don't have it fresh in my mind, but zachscum voting for his AGMscum Day 1 doesn't make any sense. People have said that it would have to be an epic amount of bussing going on for that to happen, and while I agree with that, there's also the fact that just because something is improbable doesn't make it impossible.

I'm also fighting with CA's play the majority of the game, which was underwhelming to say the least. I'm well aware that I've been accused of lurking the majority of the first few days of the game, and I agree with it, so this is a bit hypocritical. Equinox's play has given me much more info to go on, but I don't know if it's too late - I can't be sure if Equi is just cleaning up the loose ends and actually playing the game that CA should have been playing all along.

I don't want to do anything just yet, since I have to go write a quiz and teach this afternoon.

Mod: What time is the deadline on Monday?

I don't want it to go until then, but I have teaching and company coming this weekend. I tried to get it done this week but it just didn't happen.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

About 9 hours from now. But in a couple of days. Monday for you.

So 8 PM Eastern on Monday - ish? If so, thanks.


Vel

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@AGM

: What changed between your ISO post 75 and 86?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VOTE: Equinox

I'm basing this on AGM's play, CA's play, Zach's play, and the Day 1 competing wagons.

G&H is useless as scum, since there's no analysis whatsoever from his play. Walls of text and IIoA don't help at all. So the only scum work I can go with is Zach. I think Zach's pushes against AGM most of the day Day 1 are too early, too genuine to be bussing. There was no need for bussing when Zach started attacking AGM. Zach was 3rd vote on the AGM wagon that started very quickly, but didn't go very far at that point.

CA's play was much more lurkish, much more non-commital than AGM, and I feel that that particular playstyle is more conductive to keeping your options open as scum. AGM was far too focused to be scum. CAs early hopping on Zach's wagon on Day 2 (especially after the lack of commitment Day 1) looks a lot like an attempt to gain Town cred.

I'm still at a loss to understand why there was a no kill night phase, but I'm assuming that the last scum wanted to see what developed and in what direction the game would go if given another day with the same players left alive, making their decision as to who to bring into the endgame easier.

I don't think anyone likes to be the deciding vote in endgame. I'm just hoping that I'm making the right decision here. No matter what happens, my apologies for the lurkiness, amd good game everyone.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Post 946 should have been after 949. Guess I had that window open a lot longer than I thought.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

well for some reason 946 and 947 were posted at 3:30-ish and they're showing up earlier than that. Everything from Equi and AGM had already been posted when I posted both of those...wonder if the server hiccuped or if me leaving the window open all day messed things up.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I hate being the deciding vote. I'm going to bed - gg AGM.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well sorry all. I knew I was going to have trouble considering how bad RL was for the early part of the game. I was completely unfocused and missed the fact that KKN should likely be innocent from the tracker result, and managed to convince myself that the "insider info" was a valid tell.

G&H, I'll go back and really read your posts, but honestly it's not about our "differing approaches" to the game. Your playstyle is not actually "playing the game" as far as the rest of the player base is concerned here on MS.net. You're certainly not living up to your win condition the way you played this game. Your objective is to either kill everyone off, or find the killers and get rid of them. By not sending in night kills or being willing to lynch people, how can you possibly say that you're "playing the game" as intended? I agree with Hoopla that I'm likely to push for a policy lynch if I ever play with you again, since no matter what team you're on, the playstyle you're adopting is not going to give anyone else a read as to your alignment, and is actually going to be a detriment to your faction.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I seriously contemplated nightkilling G&H. Yes, my push to lynch him was a bus, but the rage was 100% real. I wanted him dead. I was REALLY scared he would blow my cover (either deliberately or on accident). I also thought gonnano might be a cop.

Fortunately, the whole lover thing solved that.

I seriously contemplated nightkilling G&H. Yes, my push to lynch him was a bus, but the rage was 100% real. I wanted him dead. I was REALLY scared he would blow my cover (either deliberately or on accident). I also thought gonnano might be a cop.

Fortunately, the whole lover thing solved that.

It really did feel like we were a 2 man scumteam.

THIS

is what I'm talking about G&H. Your playstyle is going to be a detriment to

EVERY

game you ever play in, and is 100% against any win condition. The only way this playstyle could

possibly

work is if you pulled a 3rd party role, like an SK.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The only way this playstyle could

possibly

work is if you pulled a 3rd party role, like an SK.

That'd be the lamest SK forever lol.

Yes, but at least the only team you'd be messing with is your own.