Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Equinox, clarify this statement for me please:

Also, I'm curious how much everybody thinks we should care about Hoopla's tracker result on KKN.

It's a "meh" thing for me. If scum can choose who submits the kill -- and apparently they can -- No Action results are null.

A moment of incredible stupidity (on my part).

My thought process at the time was when Hoopla did the track, there were two scum, so KKN could have easily shifted the submission responsibility to G&H, who was already under attack for posting huge IoA/IioA walls and was likely to get lynched after Zachrulez. With that in mind, I decided that Hoopla's track result probably didn't mean anything.

I'll look/respond/laugh at AlmasterGM's wall later.

What led you to the realization that scum can choose who submits the kill (as evidenced by the "apparently they can" statement)?

[Equinox]

Presence of a tracker. I've read enough games to know that it wouldn't make sense to have a watcher/tracker-type investigative role without a way to foil it.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: I think the NK choice issue was also mentioned in the thread as well, hence the "apparently" part of my statement. I don't remember who said it, however.

[AlmasterGM]

Seriously, though, AlmasterGM cannot say he has no responsibility here, either. He pushed a lynch on KKN ("How would KKN have just thought of G&H's personality out of the blue? Gotta be insider information!") that was disproved waaaaay back on Day 1 when G&H posted about his playing style.[/quote]
If this was so obvious then why didn't somebody else point this out at the time? Answer: because it flew over EVERYONE'S heads because G&H posted massive text walls that nobody could be expected to remember.

But if we're on the topic of who pushed what lynches, let's recall that I ALSO pushed lynches on Zach and G&H, who OH LOOK WERE BOTH SCUM. HERP DERP. Meanwhile, what was ConfidAnon even doing? Nobody KNOWS because he played lurk-o-tron-wish-o-wash the whole game hrmmm hrmmmmmmmmmm.

[AlmasterGM]

FIXED:

Seriously, though, AlmasterGM cannot say he has no responsibility here, either. He pushed a lynch on KKN ("How would KKN have just thought of G&H's personality out of the blue? Gotta be insider information!") that was disproved waaaaay back on Day 1 when G&H posted about his playing style.

If this was so obvious then why didn't somebody else point this out at the time? Answer: because it flew over EVERYONE'S heads because G&H posted massive text walls that nobody could be expected to remember.

But if we're on the topic of who pushed what lynches, let's recall that I ALSO pushed lynches on Zach and G&H, who OH LOOK WERE BOTH SCUM. HERP DERP. Meanwhile, what was ConfidAnon even doing? Nobody KNOWS because he played lurk-o-tron-wish-o-wash the whole game hrmmm hrmmmmmmmmmm.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Seriously, though, AlmasterGM cannot say he has no responsibility here, either. He pushed a lynch on KKN ("How would KKN have just thought of G&H's personality out of the blue? Gotta be insider information!") that was disproved waaaaay back on Day 1 when G&H posted about his playing style.

Equi, do you know what post this was? I attacked KKN for the same reason (seemed like insider information) and I didn't (and still don't) remember this post. IIRC I went looking for something when this was brought up initially by KKN, thinking that G&H had said something and he had seen it, but I never found it. Since I didn't find it I went on the assumption that KKN was having OOT conversations with G&H (ie: scum quicktopic), because let's face it, that is rather out of the blue.

[Equinox]

Post 70. Look in particular at G&H's link; that contains more detailed information.

[Equinox]

AlmasterGM pisses me off, but at least it wasn't like Newbie 940.

My analysis of the redtail scenario was 100% objectively legitimate. In the event that redtail had been scum, playing into Hoopla's claim by denying having a gun would have absolutely been the correct play. I already gave my analysis why.

Yes, playing into Hoopla's hands would have been the correct play, but you completely ignored the time stamps. redtail896's response was immediate. You tried to discredit Hoopla's gambit by ignoring the KEY POINT of why the gambit worked and instead tried to say, "Well, smart scum would play right into it." This is the same thing that happened on Day 1 when Hoopla claimed PGO -- who tried to deny it?

Equinox is putting some REALLY heavy spin on this arg to fabricate this "scum motivation." Occam's razor this garbage - all I did was analyze the situation at hand and come to a series of potential conclusions.

2) The argument has no logical followup. I never tried to get redtail lynched, and I considered him town for most of the time after. This "scum motivation" is meaningless because it never goes anywhere.

FFS, attribute your quotes!

No, no heavy spin. Just heavy borrowing from Hoopla.

VRK, why would AlmasterGM "leave the possibility" that redtail896 faked his response to Hoopla?

Considering that redtail896's response was knee-jerk, and Hoopla's action could not be reasonably predicted, there was no reason to doubt redtail896 was town.

AGM did not try to get redtail896 lynched because

I was doing that for him

. Kihihi. Look at this from my post 902:

I know where VRK stands. I know where you stand. Where does AlmasterGM stand? "Well, maybe it's Equinox, but

there's that possibility that it's redtail896 WIFOMing us all

." BS. You and VRK have solid opinions about who is scum. I have a solid opinion about who is scum. AlmasterGM is slippery in this regard.

Click the link, read it, and you will see that my summary there is pretty much spot-on. He left enormous wiggle room for a slot that didn't need wiggle room.

With regard to the first post, I gave a very clear reason for not posting much and justified it. My actions were the objectively optimal play. We should NOT have been feeding the scum information then - there was simply no reason to do so.

Objectively correct? That's up for debate and MD discussion.

However, the rest of the town already ruined that by posting their suspicions. The point of doing what you did is to have the WHOLE TOWN shut up and move past MyLo. Instead, we had at least 2 townies (I'd argue 3, but you're claiming that I'm scum) post their thoughts. That kind of killed the whole point of not discussing in MyLo, didn't it? What's the point of shutting up then?

I will also ask you, VRK, to think about what AGM just said here... and then go back to where AGM ASKED REDTAIL896 TO POST HIS THOUGHTS.

Contradiction?

Am I going to pull AlmasterGM into an epic wall battle? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how desperate I am to get obvscum lynched, but seriously, at this point I'm willing to eat a loss if it means ending this game.

Therefore, I am no longer responding to AlmasterGM's points.

Twist my shit all you like, scumbag. You're good at it.

tl;dr

AlmasterGM is correct when he says I found that much dirt on him in 38 pages. That part is somewhat true -- he's played an excellent game, bussed the people he needed to bus at the correct times. Zachrulez screamed, "Bus me!" and he did it. G&H wasn't even trying, so AlmasterGM pushed that one for maximum town cred, and he got it.

But, VRK, you've reread the thread. Do you remember Day 1, when Hoopla claimed PGO? Why did Hoopla later conclude AGM was scummy for that in post 125?

Breaking this up into two posts.

[Equinox]

If the above was an offense post, this is a defense post.

Nobody KNOWS because he played lurk-o-tron-wish-o-wash the whole game hrmmm hrmmmmmmmmmm.

ConfidAnon does that everywhere. I present Open 233 as evidence. ConfidAnon was lurky and opportunistic, and he admitted he wasn't that invested in the game. I lynched him, and he flipped town.

Last line of defense:

I am a vanilla townie.

The fact that it's in red text probably doesn't mean anything, and if I bring up my meta behind it, everyone's going to go "WIFOM!" But that's my final word here.

Vel-Rahn Koon... go with your gut. Even if it means voting me.

[Equinox]

Oh, hey, I missed that AlmasterGM did respond to 902. Here's the original post 860, with my bolds for emphasis:

Redtail's argument makes lots of sense.

But we still no-lynch.

Because even considering all of redtail's arguments,

there is ALSO the microscopic possibility that redtail is scum and that he chose not to kill

(I'm assuming no kill was a choice at this point because I'm not doctor either and I VRK wouldn't push for self-lynch as doc) because he didn't want to raise questions as to why he was still around in lylo.

Yes, that's a boatload of WIFOM. And I don't buy it at all.

Like, 99.99% sure it's not the case.

The most likely possibilities is either 1) scum wanted to drop the WIFOM nuke (70%) or 2) Equinox-scum who doesn't like his odds against VRK, as per redtail's theories (30%).

But we still no-lynch, just to be 100% safe. We aren't going to walk into LOLing scum because we did something stupid.

I'll leave this up to VRK to interpret. I still stand by my opinion that post 860 was pretty damn ugly.

[Equinox]

Yeah, it seems I'm pretty desperate to get AlscumGM lynched... but this is my last serial post, I swear. >_>

I referenced this in my wall post, but I've decided to provide the actual quotes.

From post 919:

With regard to the first post, I gave a very clear reason for not posting much and justified it. My actions were the objectively optimal play. We should NOT have been feeding the scum information then - there was simply no reason to do so.

AlmasterGM's stance since Day 5 has been to not feed scum information.

This was from Day 5, addressed to redtail896:

Why don't you just tell us who you want to lynch and then we can take that into consideration?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The hardest part I'm having with all of this is the competing wagons on Day 1. I don't have it fresh in my mind, but zachscum voting for his AGMscum Day 1 doesn't make any sense. People have said that it would have to be an epic amount of bussing going on for that to happen, and while I agree with that, there's also the fact that just because something is improbable doesn't make it impossible.

I'm also fighting with CA's play the majority of the game, which was underwhelming to say the least. I'm well aware that I've been accused of lurking the majority of the first few days of the game, and I agree with it, so this is a bit hypocritical. Equinox's play has given me much more info to go on, but I don't know if it's too late - I can't be sure if Equi is just cleaning up the loose ends and actually playing the game that CA should have been playing all along.

I don't want to do anything just yet, since I have to go write a quiz and teach this afternoon.

Mod: What time is the deadline on Monday?

I don't want it to go until then, but I have teaching and company coming this weekend. I tried to get it done this week but it just didn't happen.

[Espeonage]

About 9 hours from now. But in a couple of days. Monday for you.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

About 9 hours from now. But in a couple of days. Monday for you.

So 8 PM Eastern on Monday - ish? If so, thanks.


Vel

[AlmasterGM]

Yes, playing into Hoopla's hands would have been the correct play, but you completely ignored the time stamps. redtail896's response was immediate. You tried to discredit Hoopla's gambit by ignoring the KEY POINT of why the gambit worked and instead tried to say, "Well, smart scum would play right into it." This is the same thing that happened on Day 1 when Hoopla claimed PGO -- who tried to deny it?

So he couldn't have just thought quickly? Um, what?

You're grasping at straws soo much here. Even if we GRANT this stretch of an argument (redtail is dumb and would not have thought of the optimal play), saying I'M SCUM for SUGGESTING it is simply preposterous.

FFS, attribute your quotes!

No, no heavy spin. Just heavy borrowing from Hoopla. VRK, why would AlmasterGM "leave the possibility" that redtail896 faked his response to Hoopla? Considering that redtail896's response was knee-jerk, and Hoopla's action could not be reasonably predicted, there was no reason to doubt redtail896 was town.

This is my definition of heavy spin - taking something where there is an extremely simple and logical explanation for why somebody would do something, saying that reason is wrong, and offering up some abstract, counter-intuitive, and deep alternative theory. You are doing precisely that.

AGM did not try to get redtail896 lynched because I was doing that for him. Kihihi. Look at this from my post 902:

NOT TRUE BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T IN THE GAME AT THE TIME, CONFIDANON WAS. AND HE WASN'T DOING ANYTHING.

NICE TRY WITH THE BLATANT LIES, THOUGH.

However, the rest of the town already ruined that by posting their suspicions. The point of doing what you did is to have the WHOLE TOWN shut up and move past MyLo. Instead, we had at least 2 townies (I'd argue 3, but you're claiming that I'm scum) post their thoughts. That kind of killed the whole point of not discussing in MyLo, didn't it? What's the point of shutting up then? I will also ask you, VRK, to think about what AGM just said here... and then go back to where AGM ASKED REDTAIL896 TO POST HIS THOUGHTS. Contradiction?

Um, no, it's not a contradiction because redtail was the obvkill and is thus a different case. The only other PRIME OFFENDER was YOU, which makes perfect sense because as SCUM you would WANT all the information.

Therefore, I am no longer responding to AlmasterGM's points. Twist my shit all you like, scumbag. You're good at it.

Go AtE gooo. You are the one twisting stuff. Everything I have said is straight up truth. No interpretations. Just what happened.

[Equinox]

AlmasterGM, smears work best in political campaigns, not Mafia games. Just thought you'd like to know that.

The defense rests.

[AlmasterGM]

I'M PUTTING THIS IN A SEPARATE POST BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A SLAM DUNK:

Vel-Rahn Koon... go with your gut. Even if it means voting me.

Yeah VRK! Ignore the whole game. IGNORE LOGIC. Vote AGM for some random, unjustifiable reason! Do it! Please! It's my only way out...pretty please...?!?!

If Equniox was actually winning any arguments here he wouldn't be saying this. "Go with your gut" is a line only the loser utters.

SORRY SCUM, YOU TRIED.

[AlmasterGM]

THE PEOPLE REST.

[AlmasterGM]

P.S. The people WILL be seeking the death penalty, your honor.

[Equinox]

...and the people accuse

me

of twisting words. How utterly hypocritical.

If this were not LyLo, I would not have given that advice. Logic trumps gut in earlier game phases, yes, because you have the distinct division between townish people and scummy people. In LyLo, where you're left with only the most suspicious people, purely using logic will pull you into a WIFOM trap. That is why you use gut in LyLo, particularly 3p LyLo.

I'm not going to lie. I had a specific situation in mind when I directed that at Vel-Rahn Koon, namely Newbie 940 where I was wrongly hammered because town #2 decided to follow his logic read instead of his gut read.

However, this is the same advice I would give if I were ICing a newbie game.

[AlmasterGM]

What WIFOM trap is going on here?

[AlmasterGM]

Deadline is in about 8 hours...comeon VRK...

[Equinox]

What WIFOM trap is going on here?

Wow. I can't believe you just said that.

---

In other news, lack of hammer makes me sad. :<

If it's taken you this long and you haven't decided yet, the time is nigh to follow your heart and vote gut. Seriously.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@AGM

: What changed between your ISO post 75 and 86?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VOTE: Equinox

I'm basing this on AGM's play, CA's play, Zach's play, and the Day 1 competing wagons.

G&H is useless as scum, since there's no analysis whatsoever from his play. Walls of text and IIoA don't help at all. So the only scum work I can go with is Zach. I think Zach's pushes against AGM most of the day Day 1 are too early, too genuine to be bussing. There was no need for bussing when Zach started attacking AGM. Zach was 3rd vote on the AGM wagon that started very quickly, but didn't go very far at that point.

CA's play was much more lurkish, much more non-commital than AGM, and I feel that that particular playstyle is more conductive to keeping your options open as scum. AGM was far too focused to be scum. CAs early hopping on Zach's wagon on Day 2 (especially after the lack of commitment Day 1) looks a lot like an attempt to gain Town cred.

I'm still at a loss to understand why there was a no kill night phase, but I'm assuming that the last scum wanted to see what developed and in what direction the game would go if given another day with the same players left alive, making their decision as to who to bring into the endgame easier.

I don't think anyone likes to be the deciding vote in endgame. I'm just hoping that I'm making the right decision here. No matter what happens, my apologies for the lurkiness, amd good game everyone.