Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

[Muffin]

This ought to be fun

[Muffin]

vote millar13

. Rum is clearly a superior spirit than vodka

[Muffin]

Grammar fail.

[Muffin]

Muffin, your avatar looks like Cloudbob Popcornboxpants.


Fix it. Immediately.

Better?

[Muffin]

Alrighty...Question time!

1) Why do you play Mafia?
2) How many licks DOES it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
3) Can you describe your thought processes leading into this game?
4) Let's say that you win the game. What conditions lead to that win? What qualities will the game have? Will it be ordered or chaotic, logical or gut-based, fast or drawn out?
5) What is the square root of potato?
6) Can you please link me to the one game that you're most proud of on this site?
7) This is not a question.

My answers will follow everybody else posting their answers, and will be posted with the reasoning behind each question. I do this so that my answers and reasoning don't interfere with the answers generated by others, thus skewing the results.

1) for fun. I like trying to outwit people, although I have to admit I much prefer FTF games to any sort of online version of mafia
2) depends on how strong your tongue is
3) I actually got into this game by accident because I'd /inned for a different game that was full. However I've always thought that themed games are far superior to non-themed games
4)

If

When my faction wins the game, it will be because nothing will have been able to stop our righteous crusade against the wicked, whatever form they may take, whatever hidden catacombs they might strike from, and whatever false claims they make.
5) rutabaga
6) No, I can't. TBH I haven't been particularly proud of any of my play on the site thus far, but I am a relatively new player to mafiascum.net so I hope to rectify that with this game
7) derpalerp

[Muffin]

I think scum would be more disposed to be worried about the banner's effects on role plausibility than town.

I think that's valid. I thought the same thing before the game started.

[Muffin]

Still makes no sense. Your apparent way of dealing with a player you find hard to read is to reduce their capacity to produce content.

Technically I'd say his way of dealing with a player he finds hard to read is to refuse to provide content himself.

[Muffin]

Wait. You guys are reading me wrong.

I'm just sayin' I've been played by Neto before. I have made the mistake of automatically calling him town then listening to him.

What I mean is that I won't do it in this game, I have my eyes open. You guys think I am creating some excuse for not providing content. I'm not, if I fail to create content, I shall face the consequences.

So we've gone from

"I won't answer the questions" to "I won't make the mistake of assuming he's town"

[Muffin]

Also the sqrt of potato, if you go a=1, b=2, etc etc you get sqrt(potato)=1200

[Muffin]

Well ya, but you said town has

Nothing

to fear which is biased and wrong. You are right, scum fear stuff. I am right, Town fear stuff. We're both right.

You're the opposite of right.

[Muffin]

millar13 and Muffin have been prodded.

They have 48 hours to respond to the prod or post in the thread, or else they will be replaced.

Uhhhh... My latest post was yesterday afternoon. Also if you DID attempt to prod me, I haven't received it.

[Muffin]

Just caught up

Vote: Robo

semes quite scummy from what i have gathered

What, specifically, about Robo seems scummy to you?

[Muffin]

Someone will probably hammer you anyway. Don't play the card...if get one more vote i will claim card. If you mention claiming then do it, instead of using it as some sort of leverage

I don't think he's in any danger of getting quick-hammered this early into the game. Any player that quick-hammers Robo only 5 pages into the game is either scum or a poor town player and would at the very least fall under intense scrutiny the next night from town PRs and the next day.

if you have something about your role say it now; L-2 or L-1 doesn't matter that much

Why are you trying to fish for power roles?

[Muffin]

What, specifically, about Robo seems scummy to you?

Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude. And if he is off the scene, then I am actually able to play the game and search for mafiascum instead of human scum[/quote]

If this is true, then IMO you need to replace out of this game. Don't let your personal emotional biases get in the way of winning the game. He could be town, and then you'd be voting off a townie just because you don't like him which at the very least is playing contrary to your win condition.

[Muffin]

Ahh damn it.

EBWOP

, should be like this:

What, specifically, about Robo seems scummy to you?

Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude. And if he is off the scene, then I am actually able to play the game and search for mafiascum instead of human scum

If this is true, then IMO you need to replace out of this game. Don't let your personal emotional biases get in the way of winning the game. He could be town, and then you'd be voting off a townie just because you don't like him which at the very least is playing contrary to your win condition.[/quote]

[Muffin]

I'm not replacing out of a game, because someone has a vendetta on me and I'm stepping up to the mark.
Plus the fact that from a quick skim...he seems most scummy seems to be apparent. Its quite clear im not the only one that thinks this after only six pages

I already asked you WHY you find him scummy and the best answer you could come up with is "Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude."

You say he's the most scummy but can't back it up with evidence?

[Muffin]

this game is getting on my nerves
i attribute it to robocopter, who always manages to get on my nerves
i am wanting a more fun game

##vote robocopter87

i also disagree with the assesment on netopalis. we cannot use meta on a day 1 lynch in my opinion

Here's another ridiculous vote.

[Muffin]

I'm so confused as too what just happen

Maybe you should pull your BS vote off of Robo, since he's somehow at the vote threshold but still alive.

[Muffin]

I don't actually understand what that even means; was that english?

I will spell it out for you:

-I think your reasons for voting for Robo are invalid/fake/made-up
-I think that if you have a personal problem with Robo that prevents you from playing in an objective manner, you should ask the mod to find a replacement for you
-I think that my vote is staying where it is for the time being
-I think you should unvote, because it only takes 5 to lynch, and robo has 5 votes on him. Even if you want to hammer him you should still give him the chance to claim, at the very least.

[Muffin]

Then why did it happen after a wagon started on you?

I bet because someone knew it would reduce the votecount by 2, and as a result thought they could get him lynched.

[Muffin]

However, someone did think they were going to kill you off though. Which means scum definitely fear you; which means despite everything i said earlier your 100% town.

LOL what a flipflop. First he's the scummiest player in the game. Then you refuse to provide quotations of what about him you found scummy. Now he's guaranteed town?

On top of that, Millar13 was the first person to come up with a reason for why the zergrush didn't kill Robo:

However, someone did think they were going to kill you off though.

I'm thinking "someone" in that sentence = "millar"

[Muffin]

My answers will follow everybody else posting their answers, and will be posted with the reasoning behind each question. I do this so that my answers and reasoning don't interfere with the answers generated by others, thus skewing the results.

Can we get your answers now? I don't think concerns about skewing the results are valid/warranted.

[Muffin]

do you honestly think that if I was scum I would write up questions that I would trip myself up by answering?

Certainly not. I just don't want town to get in the habit of letting promises go unfulfilled.

[Muffin]

The original case against robocopter was reasonable since it was the only real lead at the time, but I'm surprised it went as far as to force a claim. I wouldn't call him confirmed town. It feels a bit convenient that he survived the zerg attack, assuming that an increased lynch threshold is not a common power in this game.

Convenient indeed.

Realistically I wouldn't expect that scum would get increased lynch threshold as an ability... feels a bit swingy.

On the other hand I suppose speculating about the setup is WIFOM to a certain extent.

Furcolow and Millar 13 are the two scummiest players in my books right now. Both of them jumped on the Robo wagon for completely asinine reasons and then promptly reversed their positions. On top of that neither of them have really contributed anything in terms of content.

The fact that we got so close to a lynch so early is concerning.

[Muffin]

Furcolow, are you not reading the thread very well, or do you really think that present circumstances make Robo more likely to be scum?

He unvoted and claims that he feels we can "find a better lynch"

[Muffin]

I'm interested to hear Mindgamer's thoughts on the game so far. We've heard nothing from him except his randomvote on me early on.

[Muffin]

I'm interested to hear Mindgamer's thoughts on the game so far. We've heard nothing from him except his randomvote on me early on.

Mindgamer hasn't posted in any of his games, hes just been gone. I'm in like all of his current games and he's just stopped posting.

I understand. That's why I want him to post or be replaced, because I'd rather not lynch millar until we hear from all the players

[Muffin]

I seem to recall him doing exactly that.

I don't. Perhaps you can link to the post where Millar gave specific examples of what he found scummy? Because I seem to remember the following exchange taking place:

What, specifically, about Robo seems scummy to you?

Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude. And if he is off the scene, then I am actually able to play the game and search for mafiascum instead of human scum

[Muffin]

oh you do though...its called pressure.

[...]

L-2...it good tbh as if anyone puts him to L-1....then that person is indeed going to look scummy.
And i dont think anyone is going to want that...but L-3...isn't really enough especially considering...shotty and myself were both L-3 on this page; so i don't quite understand why your not altogether with it Neto (unless you know something?)

You are at L-2 now Millar. Do you feel pressure?

[Muffin]

Also want to know what Muffin thinks.
About Furcolow

Go back and read it yourself. I think Furcolow looks pretty scummy, but not as scummy as you.

[Muffin]

Millar has contributed almost nothing in 12 pages except to latch on to other players' arguments and ape them as his own. Case in point:

Neto, being a VI doesn't clear him to be town. I think hes scum. Yes hes certainly acting like a VI but its not called that. This is called,

Flailing

. Hes trying to find someway out of his death. A normal townie would continue to scumhunt because Townies don't lose if they die. Theres a much bigger consequence for the death of scum than for death of Town. So with that being said.

Furcolow is flailing.

Furcolow is scummy.

Policy lynching a bad player is common; i often deserve it.
But personally; i just feel like it was a real bad attempt

and he is flailing now

[Muffin]

Lazyness is scummy

FOS:Muffin

You're the lazy one who won't go back and read the thread.

[Muffin]

I've contributed nothing? Wow....your opinion is so useless

Yes, nothing. Shall I do a post-by-post? Sorry for wall-of-text in advance.
===========================================================

confirm vodka bitches

Nothing here, just confirming.

I never got a role pm, and my PROD was the first notification from the mod....so soz

A bullshit excuse. How did you confirm into the game without reading your role PM?

EBWOP

OH wait it did

Oh wait, the story doesn't add up? Ha ha, better EBWOP your way out of it.

Just caught up

Vote: Robo

semes quite scummy from what i have gathered

As others have noted, this post came 4 minutes after the previous one. You read the whole thread up to that point and decided who was scummiest in 4 minutes? Even if you did, you don't present anything to back up your claim. You just say "he's scummy".

No....EBWOP clearly informs that I did

More fluff...

lol....

if you have something about your role say it now; L-2 or L-1 doesn't matter that much
Someone will probably hammer you anyway. Don't play the card...if get one more vote i will claim card. If you mention claiming then do it, instead of using it as some sort of leverage

Role-fishing. At the very least anti-town if not scummy.

Well, you see. I'm not at L-2. I'm at L-3.

Actually you are at L-2...if you counted

Just caught up

Vote: Robo

semes quite scummy from what i have gathered

What, specifically, about Robo seems scummy to you?

Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude. And if he is off the scene, then I am actually able to play the game and search for mafiascum instead of human scum

This is possibly the most substantial post millar has made, and yet it's mostly just quotes. First he corrects a vote count (ooh, ahh) and then when I ask for SPECIFIC REASONS why he finds robo funny, as per his earlier vote, he says "I just don't like him" more anti-town BS

Clearly I am not fishing for his roles; because he is the person that brought them up to begin with.
My view is that as soon as your mention your have roles

1) You are putting a target over you head
2) You are trying to use it as leverage not to get lynched (but ultimatley mafia will normally NK u unless you are fellow scum)
3) If you mention roles, but then say you will only reveal say at L-1 rather than L-2...then that is just scummy.

Here millar provides a list of what he thinks happens when someone mentions that they have a power role. Fine, good, whatever. But this is not scumhunting, this is just filler crap, including the bullshit "claiming at L-1 is scummy"

I'm not replacing out of a game, because someone has a vendetta on me and I'm stepping up to the mark.
Plus the fact that from a quick skim...he seems most scummy seems to be apparent. Its quite clear im not the only one that thinks this after only six pages

Refusing to ask for a replacement because he has a personal grudge against another player, even after it was pointed out that holding said grudge can be detrimental to the town.

I'm so confused as too what just happen

Still more fluff and filler

I don't actually understand what that even means; was that english?

And more...

Unvote

fine but if he doesn't claim; my vote is going right back on him
False claiming is a big no-no is my book

and replacement; dont be so silly. I'm not the first person to have quarrells on this site.

False claiming is a no-no in most peoples' books, but there was no evidence Robo had false-claimed. This is just filler disguised as scumhunting. Also still refusing to replace out due to his personal grudge.

Well, that was neat.

If we look at RC's global posting pattern on the site, we may get an idea of when the "Zerg Rush" ability was sent in. This is relevant based on the probability that it was sent in prior to robo claiming needing an extra vote to lynch him.

Ythan, why is that post scummy?

Oh that is a good point....who else is online @ the moment. Active lurking!!!

Millar shows us how to latch on to someone else's argument when you can't come up with any on your own. Here he's presented with the idea of calling people active lurkers.

EBWOP:

Unvote

Not ready for a lynch just yet.

possibly BV; had something to do with this? But with it not going through, stepped away from voting in order to remove oneself from firing line? Just an idea not a FOS or anything like that

Here he throws BV's name out. It might be true, but again millar provides nothing concrete to back it up. It's just "LOL HAY GUYS IT MIGHT BE BV"

How did you get that power?

More filler

So your claiming that as a Good you; you have a power that you don't have to select daily/nightly and instead have a power that works throughout the entire game?

And more

Yea; would like to know that too. if your going to claim power; might as well give ur character

"Oh, someone else asked for his character... I better do the same so I seem pro-town"

i still don't believe its a passive thing, but rather a selfish-self election thing.

Still speculating about this power. Still not scumhunting.

However, someone did think they were going to kill you off though. Which means scum definitely fear you; which means despite everything i said earlier your 100% town.

This is a significant post, IMO. Millar was the first person to come to this conclusion, or at least to voice it in thread. He also flip flops on Robo's alignment and says that robo is now "100% town". I think this is a case of scum having stuck their necks out too far and backpedaling furiously.

What is Zerg Rush? i don't actually fully understand the theme, but it looked cool

Does millar think that if he just keeps providing shallow comments on the goings-on that nobody will suspect him?

That is the exact point i made lol; i think we can confirm Robo as town.
Unless of course a fellow mafia member knew he would survive; in the ultimate cover-up
Just saying lol, because you never know with themes.

So I clearly cannot drink the wine in front of

you

...

Oh im not saying i fully believe that, but in this game never leave any stone unturned

Unable to commit to anything. That is a scumtell IMHO

that Day action has shaken things up so much lol

Can't think of anything to say still?

yea lol....make me think. If Robo does have the ability to increase someone vote threshhold then could an opposite role lower someone's threshold

Yes, that's indeed possible. But speculating on the setup is not scumhunting.

You can't know that for sure; you cant be certain that is the counter

Still no scumhunting

I think someone doesn't neccersarily have to have voted; to instigate it.

Still no scumhunting

Vote: STTB

WAY TO GO ACTIVE LURKER SCUM!

you have nothing to say during the entire period of this Zerg Attack, but as soon as someone votes for you you post within an hour.
SCUM

Oh and here we see the argument that millar latched onto earlier is brought to bear on someone! No case is presented. No logic. Just call him an active lurker and vote. That ought to work right? Right?

i dont do other games....because i play each 1 differently. All i know is you had nothing to say; until someone VOTED for you. Denying that?

This is about as close as millar comes to actively attempting to find scum.

Neto it was a completly OMGUS...and i no you noticed that he has SUDDENLY appeared after you voted him.
HIGH FIVE on a lurker trap

Buddying up to neto.

Reasons Kdub?

Fluff.

yours is based solely on coincidence and timing...not actually a strong case. Just a lot of quote and comments.

This one is rich. He claims someone's argument is weak because it's based only on coincidence and timing and yet TWO POSTS PREVIOUSLY he did the same thing to Shotty. What a joke.

Vote: Furcolow

i might be partially dyslexic (one of the reasons i play games like this; to practise)

but; that has not reason to indicate scum; that is one of the worst reasons ever.
SCUM I FOUND YOU!

Wishy-washy voting.

lowered threshhold lol...my vote put him at L-4 (without it he goes to L....oh wait NO VOTES)
you put him on L-3.

And to be honest I hope that we get another three votes on him; i might not often see eye to eye with you lol (i think its an ACTIVE PLAYERS thing) but grammar is never a reason....never ever ever a reason to suspect someone. Maybe in RVS....and that just a scummy player looking for something desperate. If people are even nervous about hammering this scummy mofo, il opt to hammer him myself.

Correcting a votecount again. This is closer to what I like to see, but it is still not scumhunting.

EBWOP:

seeing as i didn't

Unvote

lol easy mistake...although Shotty (i am coming for you DAy) and u will get a big case

Vote:Furcolow

Forgot to unvote... okay... Nice to see he promised a "big case" for shotty. I wonder if we'll ever see it? Somehow I doubt it.

oh you do though...its called pressure.
And if he actually is scum; then this ZERG thing could very well have been instigated by him
so would be irony if it was sort of pushing him againgst it.

L-2...it good tbh as if anyone puts him to L-1....then that person is indeed going to look scummy.
And i dont think anyone is going to want that...but L-3...isn't really enough especially considering...shotty and myself were both L-3 on this page; so i don't quite understand why your not altogether with it Neto (unless you know something?)

Oh now he claims that L-2 is just as much pressure as L-1. Let's see about that, shall we?

fair point; i just believe that FOSing weak, especially after he gave such an easy oppurtunity.
In fact; i am so confident as i never seen such a week case that if would happily REPLACE out of this game if i was wrong about him lol.
I don't think it gets much easier than when someones uses the "grammar" or other such stupid reasons (HATING on someone however is a legit reason; in this community)

Hmm, here he states that he thinks fossing is weak. I agree, I think fossing is silly and arbitrary. Here he claims that he'll replace out of this game if he's wrong. Also according to millar grammar and such things are not a legitimate case, but hating someone is a legitimate case. WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.

Basically; i am fully confident in my spot. The use of "Grammar" being the reason I am scummy is weak. That is almost like 'Furcolow' shouting; im a member of the scum-team and ive actually lost reasons other than to make on that exists; but isn't legitimate. If you could make money from predictions; i would put money that he is defo scum.

I agree that grammar is not a legitimate case against someone. What I think is legitimate is that millar STILL has not done any scumhunting.

lol Furcolowi like the blatant OMGUS

Basically; i am fully confident in my spot. The use of "Grammar" being the reason I am scummy is weak. That is almost like 'Furcolow' shouting; im a member of the scum-team and ive actually lost reasons other than to make on that exists; but isn't legitimate. If you could make money from predictions; i would put money that he is defo scum.

i'm not scum. i'll let you stick to your IRC with Netopalis and STTB

vote millar13

oh you do though...its called pressure.

[...]

L-2...it good tbh as if anyone puts him to L-1....then that person is indeed going to look scummy.
And i dont think anyone is going to want that...but L-3...isn't really enough especially considering...shotty and myself were both L-3 on this page; so i don't quite understand why your not altogether with it Neto (unless you know something?)

You are at L-2 now Millar. Do you feel pressure?

Considering how weak Furcolow looks now; no

IRC? Say what? I'm not one with the technical jargon.
Anyway; your only reason for voting me was THE IRC and me voting for you; that is one hell of weak defense.
And although we are both at L-2, i think i am safe in saying that you are feeling more pressure than I am.

Here he claims Furcolow's vote is OMGUS. It probably is, as I could see furcolow being scum as well, trying to distance himself from obvscum Millar. What I find interesting about this post is that Millar is at L-2, and claims he feels no pressure, despite earlier claiming that L-2 is an effective pressure situation.

Robo...what is an IC?

Fail

i meant IRC sorry lol

Just google it, jesus christ.

Also want to know what Muffin thinks.
About Furcolow

Is being under my scrutiny uncomfortable? Trying to get me off your back? Too lazy to go back a couple of pages and read what I said about Furcolow?

Policy lynching a bad player is common; i often deserve it.
But personally; i just feel like it was a real bad attempt and he is flailing now

Here he latches on to the flailing argument, as I mentioned previously.

Lazyness is scummy

FOS:Muffin

Oh, so now he's decided to fos me, despite saying earlier he thinks it's weak. I'm quaking in my space-boots at the prospect of a fos.

I've contributed nothing? Wow....your opinion is so useless

The sum total of your contributions is equal to the square root of dick. Nothing.

[Muffin]

Muffin, may I ask why you made the words Flailing in my posts super big? I thought they stood out enough.

Just for clarity's sake, to highlight how Millar is aping your arguments.

[Muffin]

Muffin your focus on the word flail too much...please have an actual case.

and somone is defending me? plz dont

You mean like the case you claim you're producing on Shotty?

[Muffin]

Muffin i asked for a case; not an analysis of everything i said. Quote quote quote
that isn't a case.
that just a personalised commentary. Your play is weak

You got a case. My case is that you contribute nothing to this town. All those quotes are my supporting evidence.

[Muffin]

I disagree with Muffin. That wasn't a case, that was a misinterpretation of most of Millars posts and an extremely biased argument.

You disagree with my assertion that Millar has provided minimal content and done no scumhunting?

[Muffin]

Most of it was him dissing Millar. He was more into personal attacks than focusing on what Millar was saying his posts. Muffin purposely tried to paint Millar as total scum.

I know I'm chainsaw defending him but lying is antitown.

Nothing I wrote was a lie.

[Muffin]

Wait. You guys are reading me wrong.

I'm just sayin' I've been played by Neto before. I have made the mistake of automatically calling him town then listening to him.

What I mean is that I won't do it in this game, I have my eyes open. You guys think I am creating some excuse for not providing content. I'm not, if I fail to create content, I shall face the consequences.

So we've gone from

"I won't answer the questions" to "I won't make the mistake of assuming he's town"

I think i want to make the point that until this point in the game you hadn't actually targeted anyone but rather latched on or simply commented on other people's actions. Now even though this wasn't my intention, I have actually sort of come to a different theory; how would you believe it lol

Am I the lynchee...and are you the lyncher? Because that would make perfect sense @ least if i am the Day 1 target?

That particular post was on the 4th page of the thread. You'll forgive me for not building a strong case during the preceding 3 pages of random voting, confirming, etc.

[Muffin]

So I take it that you think millar has done substantial scumhunting and produced a lot of protown content.

[Muffin]

Furcolow is buddying up to Muffin because Millar voted for him.

So I take it that you think millar has done substantial scumhunting and produced a lot of protown content.

The point of the post is to show how much you lied. You twisted his words to fit your needs. Your scummy.

The fact that your interpretation of Millar's play differs from mine does not mean I lied. You're dodging the question, too.

I asserted that millar had produced no pro-town content, and done no real scumhunting. I then went through all of his posts and showed my interpretation of them. I asked you:

You disagree with my assertion that Millar has provided minimal content and done no scumhunting?

You then went through my PBPA of millar and mostly just told me I was a jerk because I'm being hard on millar.

So I'll ask you again:

Do you, or do you not agree that millar13 has provided little to no pro-town content?

Do you, or do you not agree that millar13 has done no real scumhunting?

[Muffin]

I disagree. This game hasn't been about scumhunting rather speculation due to the Zerg Rush, he has provided content. He has scumhunted as much as anyone else.

Do you think speculating about the nature of the zerg rush (kekeke) is pro town? In my opinion it's wasted effort. it puzzles me too, but I'm not paralyzed by confusion like it seems other players are. I see an interesting game mechanic, take note of it, and move on. Speculating back and forth as to the nature of the zerg rush (kekekeke) is fine from an academic standpoint but it's not going to get us anywhere as a town.

[Muffin]

Welcome Spyrex!

[Muffin]

I disagree. This game hasn't been about scumhunting rather speculation due to the Zerg Rush, he has provided content. He has scumhunted as much as anyone else.

Do you think speculating about the nature of the zerg rush (kekeke) is pro town? In my opinion it's wasted effort. it puzzles me too, but I'm not paralyzed by confusion like it seems other players are. I see an interesting game mechanic, take note of it, and move on. Speculating back and forth as to the nature of the zerg rush (kekekeke) is fine from an academic standpoint but it's not going to get us anywhere as a town.

Are you saying that mere speculation is anti-town?

No I'm not. I'm saying it's not pro-town.

[Muffin]

We don't have anything stupid like a deadline looming, right?

Deadline is not until the 22nd.

@mod: I will be away tomorrow evening until Sunday afternoon

[Muffin]

I disagree. This game hasn't been about scumhunting rather speculation due to the Zerg Rush, he has provided content. He has scumhunted as much as anyone else.

Do you think speculating about the nature of the zerg rush (kekeke) is pro town? In my opinion it's wasted effort. it puzzles me too, but I'm not paralyzed by confusion like it seems other players are. I see an interesting game mechanic, take note of it, and move on. Speculating back and forth as to the nature of the zerg rush (kekekeke) is fine from an academic standpoint but it's not going to get us anywhere as a town.

You want us to move on from the most important thing that has happened in this game so far? Is it because you are afraid someone is going to make a connection to you? I am of a mind to say that it is, and that this points to you, and that is why you "want us to move on".

Please explain to me how speculating back and forth on the nature of the Zerg Rush (kekekeke) will help us find scum.

[Muffin]

it wont Muffin...this a tactic used by scum to distract and look like they are actually looking for something.

Yes, you're quite right millar. And you did a fair amount of it.

[Muffin]

buddy, get out of here with that shit. i am just fucking telling you who i am, and that i can "interrogate" people. i can't see alignments, i can see people's abilities. i'm not 100% a cop, but i am confirmable town. if i get myself killed tonight by scum, what the fuck ever, i'd rather us have a chance to lynch fucking scum instead of you fucks mislynching me.

So THAT's what losing your cool looks like.

[Muffin]

well, i suppose i should claim, in case i'm at L-1
I am Tanya Adams, who I have no idea who that is. I looked it up, and apparently it is a command and conquer character. I'm not really into command and conquer. I can check what abilities people have twice a game, so you all might make use of me.

Hang on, my role has a Character Name as well as a Role Name. You gave us your character name, now what's the role?

[Muffin]

Back from the cottage, and re reading the thread. Only thoughts so far are that I don't really like it when people try to steer the town without giving info as SpyreX is attempting to do. Also somewhat interested to note that some players are seemingly going along with it.

[Muffin]

Well you got a better idea muffin?

You're always so hostile towards me.

[Muffin]

Muffin: Quite frankly, I'm fairly convinced that Shotty is scum, and since the wagon's on him....I really could care less who is on the wagon. If there's an advantage to others being on it, then by all means...

I understand that, and I don't get a particularly pro-town vibe from shotty either but I haven't taken the opportunity to really scrutinize his posts yet. If people have legit reasons for voting Shotty that's fine by me. What concerns me though is stuff like this:

Whoa...
No clue whats Spyre is getting at...

So with that being said, Lets do what he says!
^^The above is serious, might as well just do what he's asking.

Which appears to be something approaching "follow the veteran"

[Muffin]

There will be information. Like I said, a little trust is necessary. Got to keep the cards close, sometimes.

Can you tell us why you chose those particular players?

[Muffin]

I feel so in-the-dark.

[Muffin]

Muffin's unofficial vote count.

Furcolow [1] - Ythan
Netopalis [1] - Shotty to the Body
millar13 [2] - Muffin, MagnaofIllusion
Shotty to the Body [2] - Furcolow, Robocopter87
Ythan [1] - Iecerint
Muffin [1] - SpyreX

Not Voting [1] - Kdub

Accounting for damage from the Zergling Rush, it is now 5 to lynch.

[Muffin]

... oh, the "not voting" is clearly incorrect.

[Muffin]

*sigh* All right, I'll play along as long as I'm not the lynch target. Do you want me to unvote millar then?

Also

@mod, sorry, just trying to be helpful

[Muffin]

I've been helping my girlfriend move and spending most of my time over at her new place. I'll see about catching up tonight but I'm in a few games so I'll be spreading the love around. Is there anything immediately requiring my attention while I make this same post in those other threads?

Robo, since I saw you ask, I don't get why Chun Li would have that ability. Did you explain the connection and I just missed it?

Also - as asked before please answer Ythan's question in regards to why Chun Li would have your claimed powers from a flavor perspective.

Did we ever get an answer to this question?

[Muffin]

i don't really feel like we should focus on "who should have this or that ability" until i can investigate and find someone who has the zerg rush ability

That's ridiculous. First of all, even assuming you're town (which I don't) You could investigate every night until the end of the game and conceivably not find someone with the zerg rush ability.

Secondly you could be scum and just lie about your investigation results.

[Muffin]

Can you see any big potential downside with his plan that could greatly damage Town by having select people on the lynch? His plan is vague at this point but I don’t forsee anything that could be totally crippling to Town given he’s willing to let others chose the lynch target.

That's why I'm playing along.

[Muffin]

Providing scum with fakeclaims lowers the skill level required to play effectively.

[Muffin]

Also, No one thinks I'm going to be NK'ed? I'm basically confirmed town. Scum wouldn't want confirmed to stay living, would they?

You're not even close to "confirmed town" so stop saying that.

[Muffin]

I might actually make a shotty case; since we are following this TEAM SPYREX NOW

I'd be surprised if you made any case at all. You haven't done anything so far, so why should we believe that you'll do as you say now?

[Muffin]

i <3 TWILIGHT!

MODKILL PLEASE

[Muffin]

NOOOOOO MILLAR!!!!! DONT!!!!

Worried your scumbuddy might get modkilled?

[Muffin]

*crickets*

[Muffin]

@Muffin
God, why so srs man? We just joking around, in a game, go figure!

*Ahem* Muffin.

Everything can be a tell. Mostly I'm just waiting for someone to hammer millar.

[Muffin]

since i have no relevance in this Death Squad...wow fun game.
Leave out a town member;

You don't have any relevance to the game because you're not doing anything. Where is the promised Shotty case?

[Muffin]

Responding to prod.

[Muffin]

CASE ON STTB

My view of the game actually starts all the way from the "Random Voting Stage" although my view might not be seen as actually be accucrate or entirely on the ball.

Sup sexy ladies.

Vote Iecerint

For a first post, this can't even be judged. Totallly neutral a good way to enter into the fray (if in fact there are ladies present)

If it can't be judged, then why did you include it?

Hey, folks. Woo! A few names I've played with before - in particular, shout-outs to Ythan, bv310 and SK.

Normally you might not look at this, but this could be a perfect tactic. By Neto seeming to not realize that STTB is in the game; you already have instilled a beleif system that neither man has prior knowledge of the other being in the game. Its all very circumstantial though.

Is your case against Neto or against Shotty? Here you seem to be pointing the finger at Neto and pretending it's evidence against shotty.

I'm going to withhold information from this town by not answering Neto's questions.

Next, he is already distancing himself from Neto. Strange, without any reason for this to occur (unless they discussed this in a "scum-topic"

I don't really see this as distancing. Distancing IMO is when two people attack each other. Refusing to answer Neto's questions could be a legitimate tactic to end the silly random voting/random question stage. Also IIRC Robo refused to answer the questions too so why aren't you jumping on that?

MoI, you don't know how much I cried over Furcolows play in that game. I wasn't even alive when he was there.

Newbie926

If you wanna know what I'm talking about read day two.

That game was ugly, on the other hand I ID'd the scum team on my first post.

Referencing game so early; i never like that. Almost acting as a marker for what I have done; so surely I wouldn't be scum etc.

Again, who is your case against? It was Robo who brought up the game, but somehow you attempt to spin it to make shotty look bad.

Guilty people are paranoid, innocents have nothing to fear.

Unvote vote robo

That is bullsh*t totally; innocents don't want to be lynched. Especially if they have a power role, as are high valued to anytown.

While I agree that it was hypocritical of Shotty to vote Robo for refusing to answer the questions after refusing to do so himself, I do think that Robo was acting overly paranoid at this point of the thread. Plus this is the part of the thread that Millar supposedly read to catch up because he "didnt get his role pm". And yet if you read onward fromt his point he votes Robo as the scummiest player in the thread, not shotty.

Shotty To The Body is then "MISSING IN ACTION" for quite a while, during the Zerg Rush (and it must be added that he had a vote on Robocopter) so it is very possible he had a part to play in this.
At this period he was supporting the Robo lynch.

What I find more interesting is that you were PRESENT during the Zerg Rush, and you were ALSO supporting the Robo lynch

Scum fear death and lynches far more than town do. Fail argument. Not to mention town controls the lynch, not scum. Oh and scum have PRs too.

I'm going to go ahead and jump on this. To me, this looks like Shotty trying to throw fuel on Robo's fire in order to get him closer to that lynch so that he can use the ability. I think that may be our best lead right now, although Furcolow isn't far behind.

Vote: Shotty to the Body

I haven't reread yet to find this dayaction, but how is voting someone for terrible arguments scummy? What a joke. Of course I was trying to get votes on him when he's behaving like a scum-bag. You had to go back REALLY far to find someone to throw this terrible argument against too, what was that page 3 or 4 or something?

Neto votes STTB; and then STTB responds straight away (almost like a co-ordinated plan backstage. Scum vs. Scum is a common theme in game, and can be planned.

I'm confused what you think about this is scummy. Is it the timing? Is it the fact that shotty responded to robo at all? I'm just not seeing scummy here.

My top single suspect up to this point is Millar. I think his vote for Robotown was the most bizarre, and I think his play in the aftermath makes little sense.

My second-tier is Neto-S2B as a scumpair. First, Neto weakly attacks S2B out of nowhere. Then, S2B calls him out for "distancing" with me. In light of other things that have happened, these seems like an unusual place for one's focus. It's also an odd choice of words. For example, Neto and I hadn't attacked one another at all, so saying that we're distancing from one another is totally bogus. It reads like "Let's distance!" "LOL OK!" to me.

I'll be in rural Kentucky this weekend visiting family. I may not have regular access to the computer.

V/LA until Monday

.

It's a false argument between you two. He attacked me already, why would I have to tell him to distance? I pretty much agree with your Millar read, but I'm not moving my vote atm.

Thats seems like an attempt of making us look slightly connected; in the most subtle of degrees.

Who is "us"? Shotty is agreeing that you are the scummiest player in the thread, so who is he trying to link with you?

Pages and pages of STTB not even commenting'; is he actively lurking or just avoiding the game to reduce heat. Post a VLA or your giving off bad signals.

I agree, active lurking is bad.

V/LA till tuesday

Finally posts one; but its almost like...what? Why not before; (or were you just lurking away just like you did when you put through the Zerg Rush)

You're reaching.

I think along with active lurking, as well as the points I have STTB looks quite scummy.

Not as scummy as you. This "case" is pretty weak

[Muffin]

Millar looks town to me, too. Killing one of Shotty, Furco would be best. Ythan and bv are at the next tier.

Vote it up, then, guys. Let's make it happen.

[Muffin]

look ive had it up to here with this shit. go ahead and mislynch me. i really don't give two shits.

if you all do a) i'm doing a
if you all do b) i'm doing b

i'm going to react you all.
if you all lynch me, i'm going to laugh at how bad the town played letting people like shotty, millar, or ythan run free and be scummy
if you all dont lynch me, i'm going to see what powers shotty, millar, or ythan has

More appeals to emotion. Is this all you can come up with when you get backed into a corner?

[Muffin]

robo you piss me off with your little one liners and inability to actually make a case on someone. ythan, bv310, same way. this town is so bad i'm ready to replace out, because mafia have surely beaten us if we don't come together. iecerint is being stupid with conspiracy theories and tunneling on me whenever he was away during half the shit he's tunneling on. i can't remember a single thing kdub has done to help us out. magnaofillusion is about the only one who has done anything worthwhile, but i know his analysis has been wrong when it has come to me. i wouldn't even care to be mislynched in this game, really, the more that i think about it. i would regret not being able to use my cool 2 powers i have, but there will always be another game in which i am a blue role for the town. the last time i was a blue role for the town, believe it or not, i used my ability to stop 2/4 cult recruitments so i know for a fact i am good at helping the town at night, but you guys obviously don't know me. just go ahead and lynch me

MORE appeals to emotion, ad hominem attacks, etc. Also the 2nd time you've listed Robo as the one who pisses you off. Why don't you just replace out if you're going to get so worked up about this? Leave emotions at the door.

[Muffin]

more voting without any case, justification, or lack of scumminess from you
the more you go on playing this way the more i am inclined to believe that shit that happened earlier in the day was a ploy
i love how when i make fun of your terrible play you subsequently vote for me
youre so anti town

LOL I love the implication that voting for you equals anti-town play. You want to know what's anti town? Pretty much the entirety of your play so far. The fact that you get so worked up into a frenzy means that even if you ARE town, you still need to not be in this game because we're going to get focused on you and your terrible answers, your inability to make a case, and the way that seemingly your only response is to start getting personal when you get cornered. Even if you are town, you aren't helping us. You're doing scum a favor by presenting such an enormous policy-lynch target that scum can just agree with the lynch on you and sneak past our scrutiny to D2.

Congratulations, you've officially done more harm than good to this town. If you don't want to get lynched then you need to turn your play 180 degrees right the fuck now.

1) No more crying, woe-is-me appeals to emotion, no more personal attacks
2) Do some legitimate scumhunting
3) Stop pretending to be confirmed town.

[Muffin]

Will you go on record as saying that it's not scummy? You seem to consider Furc nothing more than a VI.

Was that directed to me? Are you asking me to say that Furc's play isn't scummy? I certainly won't say that. Furc's play has been scummy as hell. If I can't have a millar lynch Furcolow is my #2 target.

The reason I went into the "even if you're town" bit was because I wanted to deflate what seems to be his last defense: "but I'm town! I swear!"

[Muffin]

Meh

Vote: Furcolow

only person i can actually justify lynching

See what I mean Furcolow?

[Muffin]

VLA this weekend

so if you do decided to lynch me; your idiots

More AtE

[Muffin]

I'll continue to discredit you as long as you call my mindset anti-town.

What should we do this weekend while millar is postponing his lynch?

Let's put the heat on someone else instead, like Furcolow or shotty.

[Muffin]

Also should I unvote millar since I'm not part of Team Kill or whatever?

[Muffin]

the last lylo i was in i got policy lynched when i had a stalk on the remaining cult (if the town wouldn't have fucked with me, we would have won) players like YOU, robo, are the reason this website has terrible town-play. policy police and naziism like you push stifles discussion and makes blue players like myself hard pressed to coordinate with the rest of the town

What the hell is a "blue player"?

I got policy lynched in lylo before. policy lynching is the dumbest concept ever created. you DON'T lynch someone when they're town. you lynch someone who probably ISN'T town like millar

Want to know why you get policy lynched? Because you do asinine things like the following:

VLA this weekend

so if you do decided to lynch me; your idiots

this post = scum
die scum die

unvote
vote: millar

Are you so terrible that you can't even read the thread? Good god.

[Muffin]

Rereading D1, but I just want to point out real quick that my randomvote was the lynch, and was scum. I am awesome.

[Muffin]

Haha, nice scumslip Robo.

Didn't we already establish that Sarah Kerrigan was a scum role?

[Muffin]

Pretty sure we did.

[Muffin]

Go back and re read D1

[Muffin]

Because I said so.

[Muffin]

You need a reason to go and re-read D1?

[Muffin]

So we're in morning of D2, and you're refusing to go back and read D1.

Is that what I'm reading?

[Muffin]

Slightly more on topic: If you read the very first post, it read:

Game Over
-millar13 | Sarah Kerrigan, destroyed Day 1
-Netopalis | Samus Aran, shot Night 2
-SpyreX | Cortana, destroyed Night 2

The fact that Neto was shot, whereas Spyrex was destroyed... can we infer anything from that? Vig vs SK or something?

[Muffin]

I dunno, scum maybe?

[Muffin]

REALLY lastly, mod why did you have to use the sluttiest pictures you could find? Seriously everyone needs to see the picture in my role PM when we're done.

I find the slutty pictures to be hilarious

[Muffin]

I wanted to totally mutilate Furco until I saw millar's flip. Having seen it, I don't want to do as much.

Yep. The more I read it, the less it looks like a bus to me. Right now I'm leaning towards Furco being more of a noob town who gets upset far too easily.

[Muffin]

(and by "it", I of course mean Furcolow's hammer)

[Muffin]

unvote
confirm vote: netopalis

I have a plan. If there is a watcher or tracker role out there you should follow me when I use my ability check on someone. I will use it on Ythan tonight

Did this happen?

[Muffin]

I will be V/LA for the next few days; my wife is going into labor.

If you need a mod, and SaintKerrigan isn't around, then y'all can SUCK IT!

Best of luck to you and your wife!

[Muffin]

I think your claim, that the use of a human Kerrigan to sow confusion is part of the setup, is a stretch.

I think it's valid. Showing a zergified Kerrigan would be pretty obvious that she is evil, and that would sort of defeat the point of a partial-reveal game. Also it wouldn't really fit with the "beautiful" part of the theme.

[Muffin]

Obviously it is a Sarah Kerrigan, Queen of Blades ability. The only issue is whether or not that character is the same as Sarah Kerrigan the Ghost.

That's fair, but I think there are enough hot female characters that duplicates wouldn't have to exist.

[Muffin]

I don't think this is something worth getting hung up over.

[Muffin]

Well considering that you're building this entire one-sided conversation you're pretending to have with me off of shit I never said there really isn't any relevance for me in taking part. That's the case now just as it was earlier on the page, and it's going to remain so into the future.

No, I'm with Ice on this one. You're being evasive.

[Muffin]

The human kerrigan bothers me as well so I see Ythan's point, but there aren't any other females in SC that control Zerg as far as I know so is he scum or not is debatable, filing away the possibility for good and evil variations of characters to exist in this game. I also didn't realize we wouldn't get alignment reveals, makes it difficult to know if you're even winning....

Shotty are you going to be more active today? Over 28 pages you've only made a grand total of 12 posts.

[Muffin]

Kdub and bv310 aren't much more active with 14 and 15 posts respectively.

[Muffin]

From a flavour standpoint, I can see Kerrigan as maybe-scum, maybe-Miller. Samus and Cortana, definitely not. It's interesting that our D1 Lynch and one of the N2 kills have the same flavour to them. I'm not sure what this means, but it's odd.

The same flavour? What do you mean?

[Muffin]

So I just found out about needing to step up for a few days (haven't been on-site much lately due to work). Looking over things now to see if there's anything I need to address. Stand by...

Could we get an update on the lynch threshold please and thank you?

[Muffin]

Thanks

[Muffin]

FoS on Ythan until you explain to us how you know you were visited

Why don't you point out where I gave any indication I knew I was visited.

What the hell? You said it flat out:

Robo you dumbass he fakeclaimed to avoid being outed as Kerrigan, a character clearly connected to an anti-town ability. Ice, it is established in the rules that this is a partial reveal game. It's not a janitor type role. Also, Furc dies today.

Lastly, I got a PM last night that indicates that someone visited me.

Nothing seems to have happened so I assume it was some sort of investigation/watch/track ability. REALLY lastly, mod why did you have to use the sluttiest pictures you could find? Seriously everyone needs to see the picture in my role PM when we're done.

[Muffin]

bv310, MoI, and Kdub are all possible lurky scum in my opinion. I'm eager to see if bv will actually be active like he said, but if he isn't, we can hold him accountable for that. Robocoptor is my strongest town read.

I agree with you that Robocopter is most likely town, but I don't think lurking in and of itself is a scumtell, so it would be a mistake IMO to focus on the lurkers while giving everyone else a pass.

[Muffin]

despite me not liking robo, I am fairly certain he is town. Ythan has a post style that, though scum may use it, reminds me of how kunkstar7 plays town. I'm going to say that where I see "A" is town with an experienced player, and where he is performing "A", he is likely town. I am not familiar with Muffin, but he has been attacking many people and spamming, so I am leaning town on him. Iecerint went v/la, hasn't been helping, and is causing some chaos with his insane theories, so I'm leaning scum on him, but am not ready to vote him over it. MoI struck me as town, but my heart is telling me that he might be scum... very possibly... with how he has been acting today by not doing anything productive. Is he V/LA? If I don't hear from him, I'll move him down, but I'm going to put him with Iecerint for now. Like I said, Muffin I'm leaning town, Kdub and bv310 I'm neutral on until they post more.


Town:
Furcolow
robocopter87
Ythan
Muffin

Neutral, leaning town:
Kdub
bv310

Neutral, leaning scum:
Iecerint
MoI

Likely scum:
Shotty to the Body

Don't post lists ever again please. It's like giving scum a clear indication of who they should NK in order to sow the most uncertainty.

[Muffin]

All right, after re-reading D1, I'm really starting to agree with Iecerint's case against Ythan. I normally don't like to post walls of text, but Ythan's D1 posts were few and far between, so I'm going to include them all for the sake of completeness (what the hell, it worked on millar right? ).

----------

PBPA of Ythan, D1

The big question here is whether or not Ythan has done any scumhunting, and I agree with Iecerint that he has not done any. Let's investigate.

Oh, SK is a co-mod and MoI is a player.

Superior than or to?

Is that a serious request?

Ugh I'm already in a sykedoc game.

I've grouped all these together since they are mostly irrelevant RVS/RQS junk. I have no comment.

Have you considered that the inclusion of certain characters in the banner may lend credence to some claims over others?

I considered this as well, to be honest, so I'm not ready to call this a scumslip 100%. I see Iecerint's point, but IMO it's debatable.

Says the guy with a raccoon/raccoon dog.

I think that mini 1000 filled up quickly for a reason other than the theme.

Return shout-out to Neto!

Don't talk about ongoing games.

These are posts that were at the trailing end of the RVS/RQS and somewhat relevant to the discussions at the time but largely inconsequential to the game which was just kicking off. Again no comment.

Alrighty...Question time!

1) Why do you play Mafia?

It's the greatest game ever conceived.

2) How many licks DOES it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?

Three.

3) Can you describe your thought processes leading into this game? I don't follow.

My thoughts about it starting out?

4) Let's say that you win the game. What conditions lead to that win?

Dead scum.

What qualities will the game have?

Not b-mod I hope.

Will it be ordered or chaotic, logical or gut-based, fast or drawn out?

Depends on the mod I say.

5) What is the square root of potato?

Potatoes are roots.

6) Can you please link me to the one game that you're most proud of on this site?

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14466

7) This is not a question.

Is this an answer?

My answers will follow everybody else posting their answers, and will be posted with the reasoning behind each question. I do this so that my answers and reasoning don't interfere with the answers generated by others, thus skewing the results.

Obviously it would be a very rookie mistake to trip up over these questions, so nothing to see here. Not scumhunting yet though.

Good to see that there are plenty of personal beefs to go around

I'll get to answering Neto's "poll" when I'm back.

I forgot to do this Friday

@MOD I'm V/LA for the holiday weekend til Tuesday.

Plus one.

I used Ythan before I came to MS.

Again these are just fluff.

Ice, Neto, or Robo. Voting one of you three.

Robo's reaction to Neto's standard play and Ice's response. I haven't decided which one is scum yet.

I didn't say that actually. I said I didn't decide which one of you was scum. Derp.

So, he doesn't think all 3 of them are scum, but includes them all in a list of which one will be getting his vote... makes no sense. Also there is no justification here, just a vote. Meh.

Oh yeah I forgot to say. It was your responses to Robo, not your initial questions.

Neto launches an early game attack (which are always weak) on Robo for being overly paranoid and that's scummy? I guess it could be construed that way. Pretty weak, IMO, and an experienced player should know this is weak.

Magna just holds a grudge because he's not good. Neto, I don't think you're scum, I never said I did. Don't worry k?

So wait, Now Neto's not scum, but you still put him on your top 3 vote recipients list?

Uh, yeah, you did. I don't get why you're backing off like that. That's unlike you.

I said one of you three was scum.

Ice, more this post after it.

Still makes no sense. Your apparent way of dealing with a player you find hard to read is to reduce their capacity to produce content.

I'm not even sure what this is trying to say, but it's not scumhunting.

That's weak Kdub.

Stronger than Ythan's case against Neto, that's for sure.

ZERGLINGS HAVE INVADED THE BASE! ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

That's a hydralisk actually.

I'm not replacing out of a game, because someone has a vendetta on me and I'm stepping up to the mark.
Plus the fact that from a quick skim...he seems most scummy seems to be apparent. Its quite clear im not the only one that thinks this after only six pages

I already asked you WHY you find him scummy and the best answer you could come up with is "Honesty i dislike him totally, in the way he plays and his general attitude."

You say he's the most scummy but can't back it up with evidence?

I seem to recall him doing exactly that.

Well, that was neat.

If we look at RC's global posting pattern on the site, we may get an idea of when the "Zerg Rush" ability was sent in. This is relevant based on the probability that it was sent in prior to robo claiming needing an extra vote to lynch him.

Ythan, why is that post scummy?

Because my infallible gut said so.

A big post, but mostly fluff. First of all Ythan, I defy you to provide me with a quote of Millar providing EVIDENCE. He provided none, so I'm not sure how you can recall him doing "Exactly that". Also your gut tells you it's scummy. Ok, but no defensible position is made. Just another "because I said so" which is not scumhunting.

I've been helping my girlfriend move and spending most of my time over at her new place. I'll see about catching up tonight but I'm in a few games so I'll be spreading the love around. Is there anything immediately requiring my attention while I make this same post in those other threads?

Robo, since I saw you ask, I don't get why Chun Li would have that ability. Did you explain the connection and I just missed it?

This was valid and relevant.

Defending millar? Let's hope you got me mixed up with someone else.

It's like Ythan has memory problems or something, or not reading the thread carefully. Look up 2 quotes to find Ythan defending millar.

Should still be in RVS? Why would you ever use those words.

I agree with this that the RVS should end ASAP.

vote Furcolow

I still want to hear from Kdub on that comment about defending millar.

See above.

Take a guess.

Still no case presented, still no defensible position.

Folks....Furcolow is making no sense. I get that. But, I'm not sure that we can say that he's scum for that. We need to figure out if he's a VI or if he's scum. To me, I can't think of a possible scum motivation for his actions as of yet, but I need to review his other games to see if he's always this nonsensical.

Prolonging RVS is anti-town. OMGUS is scummy.

Defending millar? Let's hope you got me mixed up with someone else.

You're saying posts 119 and 232 aren't you defending millar?

Let's take a look at your reasoning.

I'm feeling worse and worse about Ythan's play. He's been defending millar too much for my liking.

I attacked your weak case twice. Instead of trying to shore it up you're using that to try to paint me as defending millar. Yeah I think you're full of it and reaching.

I agree that OMGUS and prolonging the RVS are anti-town, but in light of Millar's flip and Furco's hammer I think we can safely assume Furcolow is just kind of a noob.

Spyre is it just me or is the second of my games you've replaced into in as many days?

Fluff

I disagree. This game hasn't been about scumhunting rather speculation due to the Zerg Rush, he has provided content. He has scumhunted as much as anyone else.

Do you think speculating about the nature of the zerg rush (kekeke) is pro town? In my opinion it's wasted effort. it puzzles me too, but I'm not paralyzed by confusion like it seems other players are. I see an interesting game mechanic, take note of it, and move on. Speculating back and forth as to the nature of the zerg rush (kekekeke) is fine from an academic standpoint but it's not going to get us anywhere as a town.

Are you saying that mere speculation is anti-town?

Ok good answer.

Thanks man.

Ythan:
You just said my case is weak with no reason why it is weak, how do you want me to shore it up? I think my initial reason to suspect millar was a pretty clear point, what is there to clear up about it?

I think I remember saying it lacks substance. Twice.

Some OMGUS

ARE

town. Are you DENYING that? If so, I completely disagree. I know a guy I play with on another website that ALWAYS does that when he is town, and I'm the same way.

Oh look I found today's lynch.

if you want to lynch our detective on day 1 go for it. lord knows i've done that before.

AtE ugh. Why did you make this useless post right after your claim post?

knowledgeable millar , surprising.
I have another ability, but I'd like to keep that a secret, as it doesn't really affect anyone. (no, it isn't a treestump)

Please tell me you're dead. I haven't caught up to the last post yet and I'm hoping you've been lynched already.

yes i do know that lol....i have been here longer than you.
But Neto? Don't tell me you would rather be in the game on D4, than in D1.
Everyone is selfish in this game (but i have sacrificed myself) but i am erratic.

I don't like or get the point of this. Plus it's anti-town.

Still not really scum hunting. This post is mostly just saying "furco is scummy" three times without backing it up again. Also that last bit could be coaching millar?

Meaning?

Wait are you OMGUSing me? Shouldn't you say that I'm buddies with one of the people you've been hopping onto with no explanation?

Sparring back and forth with Furco but it's like Ythan has been relying on wiki tells to paint furco as scum. Yes, he uses AtE, OMGUS, but that in and of itself does not make scum.

I want one of furc/millar dead and am tentatively willing to follow Spyre's plan.

Also I think I missed a plan somewhere that involves something happening to me. Clarification?

Reading further I'd be willing to be scanned for ability if I'm reading correctly and that's the idea.

Also why do I see people discussing who they think will be the nk?

This all seems to be in order. I can check back into why I was wary of kdub but now that I'm seeing a more scummy millar I think I was just being difficult.

Here I think he's realized that millar is beyond saving and is distancing himself/getting ready for the bus.

Ythan

– would you consider Shotty?

I haven't caught a scum read from Shotty but I will iso him if we can't settle on one of the other two and consider whether this is acceptable. If I still don't find him scummy I'd really rather not.

i don't really feel like we should focus on "who should have this or that ability" until i can investigate and find someone who has the zerg rush ability

So let's stop a meaningful line of discussion, made even more so by the fact that it has consistently been ignored, until you, a player that I and not I alone find scummy, can tell us what to do.

Ythan:
So what made you suddenly realize millar was scummy?

Much needed catching up.

You must have been pretty far behind not to think millar was scummy until this point, this post was made on page 21 I think. Completely agree with the point about Furco wanting us to wait until he had a guilty. However this reinforces him as an inexperienced player with an investigative role in my mind.

Shotty case will come...although if I get to L-2...i will claim
and maybe you think the errors of your ways

...

Millar today, right?

I can see the bus coming down the road...

and tbh; if anyone thinks all three of us are scum. Then thats not good scum-hunting that just lazy hunting. And it will end up costing the town; come the night
Unless we have good players with protective roles.

When someone asks for content this is not the right response.

Agree with this post, but notice we're something like 25 pages in to the game and we STILL haven't seen a defensible position from Ythan.

Please don't ask that question in the thread, you know that it is useless.

It's easy to get past town's scrutiny by focusing on someone like Furco who puts such a huge target on his back.

Responding to prod, sorta. Was going to post here anyways.

MoI- I will not switch to Millar. Not because of my read on him, but because what he is doing. He is providing good discussion and being active. I think if we kill him, we will have a serious activity problem, like we already sorta do.

Your only excuse for him is that he's posting, completely neglecting evidence against him for a lynch.

More distancing from scum-millar.

Ythan, could you please articulate the evidence against Millar for a lynch?

Could you please articulate the evidence against me for a lynch?

I found this one interesting. When asked about evidence against millar, Ythan dodged the question entirely.

The short version is that I don't think you're scumhunting and I think you've slipped a few times (e.g. complaining about some abilities being more a priori feasible pregame)

What was this exactly?

look ive had it up to here with this shit. go ahead and mislynch me. i really don't give two shits.

if you all do a) i'm doing a
if you all do b) i'm doing b

i'm going to react you all.
if you all lynch me, i'm going to laugh at how bad the town played letting people like shotty, millar, or ythan run free and be scummy
if you all dont lynch me, i'm going to see what powers shotty, millar, or ythan has

No, it's not everyone else's fault. You have played poorly so you're going to be lynched at some point. Don't act like everyone else is wrong for not seeing through your bad play.

Even though Iec overuses the term "a priori" I agree that Ythan hasn't been scumhunting, as evidenced by this pbpa.

Have you considered that the inclusion of certain characters in the banner may lend credence to some claims over others?

You think that this is scummy? As for the other thing, if that's the way you feel then tough shit I'm not going to make you feel any different. When you're done talking about what you get a sense of then we can talk.

Playing tough guy to deflect criticism.

Have you considered that anyone else might have such concerns about claims? And my performance is not anti-town. You have have your problems with some things that I have done but not only is my play perfectly

acceptable

, but even if you don't find it such then your lack of acceptance means nothing to me.

Your play most certainly is not "acceptable" despite what you might personally think. Appealing to some sort of established meta isn't going to work.

I forget, who was it I was asked to move to? Furc really should be dead.

Not reading the thread carefully is, IMO a pretty reliable scum tell.

Will you go on record as saying that it's not scummy? You seem to consider Furc nothing more than a VI.

Here it looked like I might be forgiving furco, which to a certain extent I was. Not sure what he would have done had I said furco wasn't scummy... paint me as scum maybe?

Apart from Shotty-to-the-Body, but that is really dependent on Neto and not a total 100% solid case (but when has this ever been about solid cases?)

Don't bother posting if you're going to undermine your own message.

VLA this weekend

so if you do decided to lynch me; your idiots

If you get lynched it's by a fair analysis of your play.

When you get back claim before I hammer you.

I can hear the bus coming now...

Are you a mindset-cop? Amazing.

I'll continue to discredit you as long as you call my mindset anti-town.

What should we do this weekend while millar is postponing his lynch?

Here Ythan does raise a good point... we can't really comment about someone's mindset. We CAN comment about their actions, and to date Ythan hasn't done any scumhunting or presented any cases beyond wiki tells.

Does Furc need more heat? He's about cooked.

Are you kidding.

You idiot. Have you not been paying attention to a single thing anyone has been saying. Why did you hammer?

You idiot. Have you not been paying attention to a single thing anyone has been saying. Why did you hammer?

Furco's hammer looked pretty bad to me too, until Millar flipped.

Robo you dumbass he fakeclaimed to avoid being outed as Kerrigan, a character clearly connected to an anti-town ability. Ice, it is established in the rules that this is a partial reveal game. It's not a janitor type role. Also, Furc dies today. Lastly, I got a PM last night that indicates that someone visited me. Nothing seems to have happened so I assume it was some sort of investigation/watch/track ability. REALLY lastly, mod why did you have to use the sluttiest pictures you could find? Seriously everyone needs to see the picture in my role PM when we're done.

Who fakeclaimed? Millar? No... I read his iso and didn't see a claim from him. Not reading the thread carefully is a scumtell I find reliable. Also this post is interesting because here Ythan claims he was visited, and then later we'll see him deny it.

A single concern, why is the picture Terran (pre-Zerg) Kerrigan?

Unsatisfied, personally.

Okay, you're unsatisfied... good for you I guess?

Considering that I wasn't mafia killed no I don't think so.

Haha, I love the subtle "I am town" implication here. Alternatively you could be alive because you ARE mafia?

I think he was scum. Scummy player, lied about his role. I also wish I had known this wasn't going to be a full reveal game before I joined, but at least it's historic. I'm unsatisfied because the character shown in the flip is not one who should have Zerg-related abilities.

Okay, so he was scum according to you. So are you suggesting (as per later posts I'm about to get to) that there are 2 kerrigans in this game?

Good luck! Be careful around doctors though they're NK bait.

Irrelevant but I laughed at this.

I think your claim, that the use of a human Kerrigan to sow confusion is part of the setup, is a stretch.

Tell SK that.

Obviously it is a Sarah Kerrigan, Queen of Blades ability. The only issue is whether or not that character is the same as Sarah Kerrigan the Ghost.

So.... again, are you suggesting there are 2 Kerrigans on the scum team?

Is the lynch threshold still reduced?

Valid question but still no scum hunting.

I think your argument is misbegotten. The presence of a single very scummy character would not ruin the purpose of a partial-reveal game.

I'm not complaining. I called it a single concern, which it remains.

I would still like to know about the lynch threshold.

I'm not being the least bit evasive, stop obviously trying to paint that shit on me plz thx.

Well considering that you're building this entire one-sided conversation you're pretending to have with me off of shit I never said there really isn't any relevance for me in taking part. That's the case now just as it was earlier on the page, and it's going to remain so into the future.

I'm with me on this one. I'm not. In order to be evasive I'd have to be evading someone. So close! Now stop.

This whole exchange doesn't feel right to me. I've already covered why it doesn't make sense for Ythan to be arguing this. He might not be purposely being evasive but he's definitely not giving straight answers.

FoS on Ythan until you explain to us how you know you were visited

Why don't you point out where I gave any indication I knew I was visited.

Samus and Cortana, definitely not.

I was doubting that the human Kerrigan used a Zerg ability. You're assuming alignments.

Okay again... do you think there are 2 scum kerrigans in this game or what? That's what you seem to be implying.

Don't defend Furc please.

Yeah furc's defense should come from him, not someone else. But I'm not ready to lynch furc yet.

Robo we can get to why you're scum after Furc is dead please wait your turn.

I actually think Robo is town.

he doesn't need to defend me u and shotty are scum buddies trying to push a policy lynch

Lol what. Try really hard to explain this.

I wouldn't call it a policy lynch.

Hey Furc I forget what does AtE stand for.

Hey Ythan when we lynch you don't cry ok

Also OMGUS, I've a little hazy on that one too if you could help me out.

Seriously you're so full of shit. Do you actually have anything against me or are you just flailing?

No OMGUS doesn't require a vote. OMGUS is attacking someone with no basis because they're attacking you. That's exactly what you're doing. Now go cry about not liking my playstyle until we're ready to string you up.

More wiki tells but still nothing substantive.

That has nothing to do with my argument about Kerrigan you idiot. Please go sit in the corner quietly until we're ready for you.

Your argument about kerrigan is a) irrelevant and b) nonsensical

Lots of reasons that, unfortunately, Ice has yet to properly enumerate. Also any claims that I've won scummies as a wallposter are blatant, boldfaced lies easily dismissed. I've never won a scummy,

ever

. I've been nominated for one, and hardly for wallposting. Ice you are seriously stretching here.

Whatever

Oh, you've

already done it

. And so you can't be bothered to actually post it all together as a real case can you? I can't possibly discredit you any further, nor better minimize any negligible threat. You're bullshitting at this point. If not, actually make your case.

Is it cool if I make a case?

------------------------------

WOW. I'm sorry this is so long, seriously I apologize because I hate reading walls of text, but I couldn't think of a better way to organize everything. I'm open to suggestions on that issue.

In any case, if you made it through the whole post, and I sincerely hope people make the attempt to read it, you will see that Iecerint is correct: Ythan really hasn't done much scumhunting beyond calling people out on AtE and OMGUS.

With that in mind, I would like to

vote: Ythan

[Muffin]

I considered this as well, to be honest, so I'm not ready to call this a scumslip 100%. I see Iecerint's point, but IMO it's debatable.

Didn't you say you agreed with me about it D1?

Here's the post I think you might be referring to, with clarifications in red.

I think scum would be more disposed to be worried about the banner's effects on role plausibility than town.

I think that's

[Ythan's concern is]

valid. I thought the same thing

[about whether or not we could assume Samus/Chun Li/Joanna Dark/Whoever else are in the game]

before the game started.

Like I said, I can see how scum would be more preoccupied with finding a good fakeclaim, but I don't think that scum would be alone in considering this. Hope that clears it up.

[Muffin]

Any thoughts other than that so far?

[Muffin]

I don't think I disagree with anything in your post. (It's worth lampshading for those who didn't really read it that a lot of it is similar to your post about whoever it was D1 (I think that was you?), so a lot of it is like "this is vacuous" or "this part is OK I guess" and so on.)

Yeah that was my big post about millar. The point of both this and the millar post was to gather all the subject's posts into one conglomeration and show, post by post, that there was essentially no scumhunting done. I also pointed out a few things that were scummy, but the main point was solely to highlight the lack of scumhunting.

[Muffin]

Any proof you can provide that millar was 100% confirmed scum Muffin? I don’t see any clear Mod indications. As stated above I’m not 100% sold that he wasn’t dumb Town. If that turns out the be the case (he was dumb Town) your statement above is a prime example of scum trying to cash in on an low information lynch for Town credit. Consider yourself being watched by eyes.

Is there serious doubt in your mind that millar was scum? There's definitely no doubt in mine. Watch me all you like.

Option 2 I think is quite looney, IMO. Option 1 conflicts with the ruleset and thus is out the window.

So if you agree that there's only 1 kerrigan in this game... are you suggesting the zerg rush could be a town-aligned power?

Based on a later post are you confirming that you got a specific block PM from Reaper?

That was Ythan, as I noted previously.

[Muffin]

My point stands. If you read my big post, the point was to point out how you haven't done any scumhunting. You claim to have made "accusations" but they've got no substance. Put together a case and then we'll talk. Also you haven't responded to the blatant and somewhat bizarre lie you made in post 704: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2390966

[Muffin]

When you're entire case is that I'm not hunting and you simply dismiss any instance of me doing so there is nothing for me to do but scoff.[/quote[Okay, please quote what you believe to be instances of scumhunting.

As for the next bit. When you're facing accusations that you're attempting to paint me as scum by dismissing my arguments, a good place not to start is asking me to explain why I lied instead of asking me for clarification. You're overeager to skip past your summary questioning. As for the explanation you're likely to ignore, I said from the start that my PM indicated that I was visited in the night. Furc's dumb ass asked me to explain how I knew I had been visited. Beyond what I had plainly stated in the very post that he must have read in order to ask such a question, I don't know anything. I said that my PM indicated as much.

Challenging someone to quote where you stated something seems like you're implying you didn't state it.

[Muffin]

Better post this before I forget:

I'll be VLA from the morning of the 23rd until Monday the 26th

when I get back from Quebec city.

[Muffin]

Also, probably should have mentioned this before, but my action last night failed too. Anybody else thinking global roleblock?

2 kills went through, so I doubt it.

[Muffin]

More votes on Ythan please

[Muffin]

It's been almost 48 hours... mod will hopefully prod them soon.

[Muffin]

There wasn't

[Muffin]

Ya, three people lost abilities, I don't understand why a global role block isn't a possibility. What proves it wrong?

............................ 2 kills, unless you're suggesting scum team gets 2 kills per night.

[Muffin]

Fine, next point, I shot Neto.

Once kdub posts and Muffin, Iec and bv310 weigh in on Shotty’s claim I’ll provide my thoughts.

I have no particular reason to believe this claim. Shotty said he'd be more active and he's almost been

less

active today than yesterday. He might have actually been the one to shoot Neto (which IMO was poor play because Neto was one of my stronger town reads during D1) but even if his claim is true that doesn't imply alignment. He could be scum, SK, or vig.

Shotty's been posting so seldomly you can barely call it "active" lurking.

[Muffin]

I am completely ignoring Ythan. I don't feed trolls, sorry. When he wants to grow up, and start behaving like a man, then I will consider responding to him. Robocopter, you are embarrassed about getting "laid" on a mafia game. It's awkward to you because of your immaturity. I would like you to explain that, and furthermore, if you visited me last night, I have a suspicion that you're the one who stole my ability you little thief.

This bit is pretty rich coming from you. As soon as you get backed into a corner you start getting personal with the insults and generally throwing a tantrum.

If you want to be taken seriously then you need to start playing this game for reals. Refusing to respond in your own defense because you don't want to "feed the trolls" is denying the rest of us information with which to determine your alignment. It's anti-town. Yes, Ythan tries his best to be irritating. Has it occurred to you that he might be doing it purposely? As a strategy to throw others off balance?

In short: Suck it up, Princess. Either play the game or replace out. Don't sit here in the thread and refuse to engage with us because of some perceived moral high road.

[Muffin]

Also shotty are you a one-shot or an infinite-shot vig?

[Muffin]

This is funny, why WOULDN'T you believe the claim? There's no one counter-claiming and no plausible reason I would lie about it. If I am then whoever shot Neto would shoot me yes? What does my activity have to do with my roleclaim? Why are you trying so hard to discredit my claim?

unvote vote muffin

Furc's claim is not confirmable right now and his play hasn't been great. That being said I don't want to lay out any plans of action that would allow scum to pick and choose their night-kill appropriately. Muffin bothers me because he tries so hard to discredit my claim for essentially no reason. Iec is town imo, though he's fooled me before. I'm assuming you're town for the moment, at least until I hear whatever you have in mind. Any other details of the technical part of my role can wait, though I'll happily name-claim at this point.

I'm not sure what Iec is talking about, but yes I am (have) claiming(ed) vig.

What a joke. "Trying so hard to discredit your claim"? Ha ha ha, yes a single post on my behalf represents trying very very hard, especially in light of the obvious effort I put in to those walls of text I posted earlier this game. The fact that there's been no counter-claim means nothing. You could be an SK. You could be scum. Why should I blindly accept that you're a town-aligned vig? Also answer the question: Are you one-shot or infinite?

He's interpreting "claim" to mean "I am a vig who shot Neto" rather than "I shot Neto." He seems perfectly accepting of the latter, less so of the former. Also, I said the same thing.

This. Okay, Shotty says he shot Neto. Fine and dandy but that doesn't mean he's town-aligned. His overreacting when I made a single comment about his claim seems contrived and artificial to me.

[Muffin]

I know that Kdub still has to weigh in but I’m never inclined to immediately lynch a claimed Vig with no counterclaim. I will not support a lynch on Shotty today unless conflicting evidence ( a Track claim of Shotty to a player other than Neto, for example) appears. Furthermore I think Shotty’s claim is easily testable by Furc if his power is as he also claimed. Althought it is Mod-WIFOM I don’t think there is potentially as Serial Killer in the game so Shotty is either Vig or Mafia fake-claiming Vig. Have questions about this? Read your role PM win conditions carefully and think about it before asking me. Both have played scummy so I suggest the following plan.

1. Furc commit to using his Ability Cop on Shotty. As Mafia kills are Faction abilities and not role abilities Furc should be able to confirm the exact details of Shotty’s Vig role. If Shotty comes up as anything other than Vig we can lynch him Day 3.
2. Shotty agree not to Vig Furc. If Furc meets death with a flavour of “Shot” Shotty can be lynched immediately Day 3.
3. If a Tracker is in the game they can track Shotty if they wish to confirm any kill he might make as a Vig.
4. If a Watcher is in the game they can watch Shotty if they wish to confirm that Furc uses his Ability Cop role on him. In addition it will indicate the potential identity of anyone who kills Shotty (as should be expected if he is fake-claiming Vig) or the identity of the Role-blocker that Robocopter has identified if they choose to block Shotty.

I like this plan in that it only locks in one action from a player (Furc) and allows others to operate as they see fit in the bounds of the plan. Additionally if Shotty and Furc are both Town roles as they have claimed it makes the life of the Mafia potentially difficult as silencing / blocking them greatly restricts their options at Night. It’s by far not perfect for reasons I’m not going to elaborate on but I’d like to hear any objections or obvious holes I am missing.

Honestly I'd rather Shotty not claim whether he is 1-shot, Odd Night or Unlimited Vig as giving that information away potential renders the plan moot.

If we have no watcher/tracker types (maybe they're dead or something) we have no way of confirming this beyond taking Furc's word for it. But it's a better plan than I've got, so I will support this.

I’m going to have to re-read but at this point I’m leaning looking in depth at bv310 and muffin for today.

Go for it.

[Muffin]

Nobody hammer yet please!

[Muffin]

Objecting to your plan? Yes. I want Furc to die.

Robo do you think that Furc's D1 hammer on millar was bussing?

[Muffin]

I'll agree to the plan to not shoot Furc if that's what the town wants. I'll give up more about my ability tomorrow then.

Please don't shoot me either.

[Muffin]

Seriously how is Furc not the one at L-1. I often tell people they're the worst I've ever played with but in this case it's the truth.

I'll unvote if you do some scumhunting.

[Muffin]

Ignoring meta is scummy.

I'll take that as a no.

[Muffin]

It's not going to be a lynch

We'll see.

[Muffin]

At the very least, I want Kdub to play the game or be replaced before we think of lynching anyone.

He's caught up, he says. He was the one who put ythan at L-1

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2401053

[Muffin]

Hammer

[Muffin]

Uh, he hasn't claimed yet.

And won't claim until someone declares their intent to hammer. So kindly say "I will hammer" so he'll claim, so we can then proceed to lynch obvscum ythan.

[Muffin]

Hey Muffin you're getting worse. A tip, mafia is more fun when you read.

Hey Ythan, still waiting for you to post more than wiki tells.

[Muffin]

Hey Muffin you're getting worse. A tip, mafia is more fun when you read.

Hey Ythan, still waiting for you to post more than wiki tells.

Dismissing all questioning that relates to tells that can be found on the wiki is patently retarded on your part. You patent retard.

Please quote where I dismissed all questioning that relates to tells found on the wiki.

[Muffin]

Oh obvscum now. Your banger of a case certainly bears that conclusion out doesn't it.

And your case is what again?

[Muffin]

Hey Muffin you're getting worse. A tip, mafia is more fun when you read.

Hey Ythan, still waiting for you to post more than wiki tells.

If I keep calling you retarded for this do you think the mod will get mad.

I doubt it. Robo might, he seems to be a bit of a prude.

[Muffin]

Because I might have to do it a bit if you flip flop back and forth so blatantly between every post. Fair warning.

Please quote instances of me flip-flopping.

[Muffin]

There is no way that you're not being deliberately obstinate.

Still waiting for those quotes.

[Muffin]

Considering that you're flat out saying that wiki tells somehow don't count. Seriously, do you read what you post?

What I said was your cases appear to be composed entirely of wiki tells and little else. What that indicates to me is that you aren't putting any effort in to your scum hunting. You're listing ways in which players violate the wiki meta and acting like it's rock solid. It's not that the wiki tells themselves aren't always reliable, it's your lacklustre attempt at catching scum.

[Muffin]

Wow, YThan is like

so

town and Furc is like

so

obv scum. Can't we lynch scumfurc instead of townythan?

Please quote postings from Ythan that you feel are, like,

so

town.

[Muffin]

Please post quotes of Ythan that are

so

scum.

I believe I already made my case on why Ythan is scum. Nothing he's posted screams "OMG SCUM" but when you look at all of his postings together you can see he's done no real scumhunting.

Here's a link so you can read them: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2391632

[Muffin]

Considering that you're flat out saying that wiki tells somehow don't count. Seriously, do you read what you post?

What I said was your cases appear to be composed entirely of wiki tells and little else. What that indicates to me is that you aren't putting any effort in to your scum hunting. You're listing ways in which players violate the wiki meta and acting like it's rock solid. It's not that the wiki tells themselves aren't always reliable, it's your lacklustre attempt at catching scum.

This doesn't even make sense. If my accusations were not consistent with site meta then you would have no criticism to offer. It is only because they are that you have anything to say to me at all.

"Site meta" is meaningless. Anyone with half a brain can read the wiki and then proofread their posts to make sure they haven't committed any of the tells there. Although apparently they'd fool you pretty well.

[Muffin]

I am suspicious-enough of Ythan to want a claim from him.

[Muffin]

Everyone unvote. NOW.

Why so urgent? Because of the name?

[Muffin]

Princess Peach.

Beloved

Princess Peach. That is all.

I don't think that really fits with the flavour. How does Peach fit the "brave" part? All she does is get kidnapped by a lizard.

[Muffin]

Muffin is now resorting to attempts to discredit my claim by questioning whether Peach is brave. Just so everyone is aware.

It's a pretty good claim for scum to make, wouldn't you say? Draw doctor protection to you out of fear of losing a whole day, and instantly make people want to get off your wagon.

Are you seriously suggesting that attempting to discredit a claim is scummy?

[Muffin]

Robo I think you're scum.

Follow-up on this thought Ythan. Re-read his opening post from today. He lambasts Furc for hammering millar, who the consensus opinion says is scum with his Kerrigan flip. Read the rest of his posts. The more I see crap postings from him and his absolute tunneling on Furc (who is horrible but due to my plan I don’t want to see lynched today) without any other sorts of input the more I think he’s scum. And it is possible he ran a gambit with millar to 'confirm' himself.

Well if Robo is scum, have a look at the interplay between him and Ythan. I have already and it's interesting.

[Muffin]

We don't lose a day if the Beloved Princess is NK'ed. But, they do say that the BP should claim ASAP in the beginning.

Not according to the wiki.

[Muffin]

Is there an upperbound on the number of scum left in the game? Can we safely assume there are no more than 3 scum left (either 3 scum or 2 scum + 1sk as a maximum)?

[Muffin]

AUnrelated Q: I accidentally made the text microscopic. How to fix? I thought it was the scrollbar, but it won't work. <_<

Hold CTRL and scroll the mouse wheel

[Muffin]

All right, I didn't want to do this until D3 but I'm worried about shotty vigging me and having my info die with me. At the beginning of D2, Robo was trying to make it seem like Millar might have been town. I think this confirms that Millar was scum in light of the following info, so I'm going to help rid the town of a 2nd mafioso.

I'm

Lara Croft, the Tomb Raider

. I have two powers: One I won't discuss (it's not a kill) and the other is an alignment cop ability. I investigated Robo last night and got an

Evil

result.

unvote
vote: Robocopter

I'd originally planned to buddy up to Robo today while looking back at D1 for associative tells in order to sniff out his partner while appearing to be valuable to the mafia (i.e. hoping they wouldn't nk me because I was defending one of theirs). I did this and noticed that Ythan and Robo were consistently in favor of furcolow being lynched and defending Millar. There have been a few times where Robo defended Ythan as well. Things such as these are why I decided to get all up in Ythan's grill today. I am still not convinced he is town.

In any case, if it makes any difference I breadcrumbed my role in this post

c
r
o
f
t

I'd also like to humbly request doctor protection tonight

[Muffin]

And that folks, is an appeal to emotion.

[Muffin]

I've got a rather large info dump to share but I want to see some information first -

1. Shotty - Please indicate your targets Night 3 and Night 4.
2. Furc - Please indicate your targets Night 3 and Night 4 (if both are valid). Please disclose the exact name of your ability (ie what you PM to RC) and any results.
3. Muffin - Please indicate your targets Night 3 and Night 4 and any results you got.

During night 2 I investigated Magna. Part of the flavor PM indicated that I was "wrong about Robocopter" which is distressing. Sorry robo! So my sanity is in question. Someone tried to kill me night 2 with a gun, but I survived because I "hid in my bulletproof closet" or something similar but for some reason that prevented my investigation from going through (perhaps I was also blocked? That doesn't make sense).

Night 3 I tried to investigate Magna again but this time I was definitely blocked because I was visited by a sexy teenage girl and apparently had a wet dream

So basically I am useless

[Muffin]

Let's see, flavor indicated I was watched and/or tracked, perhaps both. Heard some noises when leaving Muffin's room and then someone was sleeping in front of my door.

Those noises would have been me running into the closet and locking the door.

[Muffin]

Muffin, did the flavor text you got clearly tell you that you were wrong about Robo, or just that it was implied? It looks like Ythan was town, and now that millar is absolutely confirmed scum, I would be surprised if both Ythan and Robo were town.

Well I obviously can't quote it directly, but let's see if I can paraphrase:

I have a (non-existent) plot device that tells me guaranteed what alignment somebody is. I didn't use it when I investigated Robo and I was wrong, so now to avoid mistakes I try to find it but it's missing. (aka my results are not guaranteed to be accurate)

[Muffin]

Why didn't you use that plot device before? (I'm assuming you're alluding to a one-shot guaranteed-win investigation?)

Said plot device is non-existent.... i.e. it's only in the flavour. Similar to how I don't really have a closet to hide in at night, yet the flavour said I did.

[Muffin]

You knew your results were not guaranteed to be accurate before you investigated Robo, or you were told that after you investigated Robo?

Apparently I typed that post poorly.

I was told that I was wrong about Robo AFTER he had already died, by way of flavour text.

[Muffin]

Edit: You were told that you were wrong, so you needed to hunt for the plot device, or you were told that you weren't satisfied with the certainty that your results would be accurate, so your plot device would be handy?

The "plot device" was mentioned only as a mechanism whose lack caused my results to be inaccurate when I investigated Robo.

[Muffin]

Is the plot device related to your character specifically (i.e. lack of sanity might be a feature of your role), or is it related to another character (i.e. unreliable results may have been due to outside intervention)?

I think maybe people are reading too much into this.

As I said in the original post there IS NO DEVICE. It was just flavor text, and I was attempting to paraphrase because someone (kdub?) asked if it was

implied

that I was wrong about Robo or if it was stated

explicitly

.

[Muffin]

OK, I think I understand Muffin's explanation now. So you were told outright that your result was wrong (meaning Robo was town), but you are uncertain as to why it was wrong (e.g. insanity). Is that correct?

Yes

[Muffin]

OK, I think I understand Muffin's explanation now. So you were told outright that your result was wrong (meaning Robo was town), but you are uncertain as to why it was wrong (e.g. insanity). Is that correct?

Yes

What in the hell? Why would a so-called cop be TOLD his investigation was wrong? That makes no sense.

Well Robo had already flipped at that point, so... yeah I dunno. Maybe it was inadvertent on Reaper's part.

[Muffin]

so muffin is insane?

Not necessarily. I tried to investigate Magna 2x in a row to try to discover my sanity but was blocked 2x. I might be 50% or some other percentage.

[Muffin]

Um. Robo still hasn't flipped yet.

Why'd you target MoI? Why'd you do it twice?

MoI was my strongest town read, so I wanted to check my result against him. If I got a guilty on Magna, then I could say with pretty good certainty that I'm paranoid. If I got an innocent then I could conclude there's either a scum power that affected my results (randomizer or something?) or there's an X% chance that my result fails. I did it the 2nd time because it didn't go through the first time.

[Muffin]

so muffin is insane?

Not necessarily. I tried to investigate Magna 2x in a row to try to discover my sanity but was blocked 2x. I might be 50% or some other percentage.

This doesn't make sense unless you know for sure what Magna's alignment is. If you want to discover your sanity, then investigate yourself. I don't get the 50% thing, are you suggesting you could be a random cop?

Anyway, it sounded like Magna had some idea in mind. Let's hear what he's got.

Oh... shit. I didn't realize it was possible to investigate myself.

[Muffin]

Night 2 – I stole Muffin’s ability. Given his normal Cop claim I wanted to confirm he wasn’t lying as it makes ZERO sense for a Mafian to have that power. Muffin’s main powers stem from a Intention Detection Device [IDD] that can be used to determine if someone has ‘Malicous Intent’. This confirm’s Muffin’s claim. I used the device on bv310. He’s a massive lurker who would be an easy target for scum if innocent. His result from the IDD came back green, saying that no harmful intent was found.

Well fuck. I went on this rant about how the IDD doesn't exist because I thought it was just flavour text At the very least it wasn't mentioned in my role pm

[Muffin]

Muffin’s claim shot my plan straight to hell. I changed gears because I doubted that my plan would be followed since Kdub had suggested an alternate version. Also I was quite certain that Muffin, if being truthful, would be killed N2. If he was lying my theft would prove that he was scum and I would have a confirmed target to lynch the next day.

Yeah, sorry about that.

I also have lingering concerns about his hammer of millar. If millar's ability was one-time use ability then it makes significant more sense for millar to be bussed to retain Muffin's ability.

You know that might also explain why millar came back in to the thread multiple times with "FU FURC"-type posts. Pissed off for getting bussed so hard?

@Muffin

–

1. Can you think of any reason why your ability would fail or logically you wouldn’t use the IDD when you scanned Robo?
2. Is your 'hiding in the closet' a function of an alternate ability of yours?

1. Honestly I cannot. My role PM made no mention of the IDD. My investigation power was described as "I follow people around stealthily all night, and after watching them for so long I can determine their alignment" or similar. The first I'd heard of the IDD was when I investigated you, Magna, because it was mentioned that I didn't use it on Robo, was wrong, so I wanted to use it on you but couldn't find it (I guess because you stole it).

2. No

[Muffin]

Also mod, I'll be V/LA from tonight until sunday evening around dinner time

[Muffin]

Yeah...I was about to say the same thing. It's a little odd.

Edit: Ah, OK. Muffin's #2 makes sense. Is the IDD a well-known aspect of Muffin's rolename? Maybe RC assumed it was something everyone understands about the character (e.g. the same as hypothetically referring to Peach's parasol or whatever).

I've never known Lara Croft to use an Intention Detection Device.

[Muffin]

I'm going to chime in here and suggest that the flavor involved in my thefts is just flavor, as RC just said.

I think it is just a narrative justification for my ability to 'Steal' other's abilities. Unless it was tied to an item it wouldn't make sense. My own ability isn't linked to an item in my Role PM.

I agree that it's just flavor text, as I said earlier.

@Muffin

- Look closely at your PM. Is it outright stated you were wrong or is it possibly just flavor if some sort?

Ohhh how I wish I could quote this to you. I will at the end of the game I suppose. It is stated explicitly in the flavour text that I was wrong about Robo's alignment. Make of that what you will.

[Muffin]

MagnaofIllusion and Shotty to the Body: V/LA noted.

And muffin's V/LA as stated on the previous page?

[Muffin]

I am leaning towards muffin, to be honest.

Do you have a defensible position or are we going to hear more of your awesome play that we've all enjoyed so much?

[Muffin]

....

I feel that if anything, his claim is fake, and he is mafia. I disagree with you. You are just trying to defend him.

Whose claim is fake, and who are you saying is mafia?

[Muffin]

Furcolow answer the question please

....

I feel that if anything, his claim is fake, and he is mafia. I disagree with you. You are just trying to defend him.

Whose claim is fake, and who are you saying is mafia?

[Muffin]

@ kdub you sound squirmy to me
@ muffin what did you do the last 2 nights?

Are you reading the thread AT ALL?

[Muffin]

If Muffin (or anyone else) objects speak now. Otherwise I suggest Shotty make his claim whenever he decides to come back and answer the questions put to him.

I'm not opposed to a nameclaim. IF scum have safeclaims then we're still at square one but I agree with the logic that they probably don't.

BTW my "class" if you want to call it that is Tomb Raider

[Muffin]

[quote]
Shotty
Furc
Iec
Kdub
Bv310
Muffin/[quote] Yes, I know my name is at the end but I've already given my class name so I didn't think it was a problem to jump the queue if you will.

[Muffin]

millar wanted to lynch me, and he's confirmed evil. he tried to push a lynch on me. i am way more confirmed than some thief.

Right, because it's impossible for 2 scum players to vote each other in hopes of distancing themselves from each other. What you described is so commonplace I'd be surprised if it didn't happen in every single game on this site. Trying to say that you're somehow "confirmed" cause of this is ridiculous. And secondly I don't think Magna (the thief) was saying he was confirmed town. He was saying I was more or less confirmed town. So arguing that you're "more confirmed" than Magna indicates to me that you are, yet again, not reading the thread carefully.

This has been ongoing the whole game.

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST REPLACE OUT OF THIS GAME ALREADY.

[Muffin]

Shotty to the Body has been prodded. I was giving him a bit of time after he got back to get his act together, or at least come in and say "Hey I'm still alive" but he's abused that leniency.

Thank you!

[Muffin]

why don't you guys replace out? i'm pretty happy being confirmed town
to me, the people who want me to replace out are likely scum, especially considering that thief claim.
iirc rikku doesn't have to be on your side, does she? i'm not really big into final fantasy games.

Explain how you're confirmed town. In very detailed sentences.

[Muffin]

........especially considering that thief claim..........
iirc rikku doesn't have to be on your side, does she? i'm not really big into final fantasy games.

So let me get this straight: You don't know a lot about the source material from where Magna's role comes. You make no effort to do some background digging, and instead you just arbitrarily decide that he is scum because "thief" sounds scummy.

I took 30 seconds and googled "rikku" and clicked I'm feeling lucky, giving me the wikipedia page for Rikku. It reads, and I quote:

Rikku is a fictional 15 year-old character in the Final Fantasy series, and a

protagonist

in both Final Fantasy X and X-2.

Again you've demonstrated your complete lack of effort in this game. Get your act together or get out of this game.

[Muffin]

Mod, I'll be V/LA this weekend as well, from tonight until Sunday around dinner

Probably good timing, as Shotty's replacement will need time to read these 48 pages and catch up

[Muffin]

I'm building a cottage on a lake 5 hours away where there's no internet.

[Muffin]

@ Shotty's rep -- claim in your first post with all actions, your role, your class, etc.

+1

[Muffin]

That sounds lovely. What lake?

Lake Mazinaw

The site I'm on requires specific forum access, so it's not something you can just do right away.

What's the name of the site?

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
Sounds fake. Contextual posts also feel like distancing/bussing a weaker teammember.

Bussing right from the get-go? I random-voted him and then got a whiff of something scummy so I focused all my attention on him for the entire day, purposely avoiding attacking others to tunnel on millar in hopes he would slip up under the pressure. I'd say it worked pretty well. I guess it could be construed as a bus if you really really reached for it, but personally if I was scum I would have gone after someone like Furcolow who plays equally poorly but wasn't on my scumteam (assuming furc is town).

.....

@Muffin-
Getting cold feet about your bus?

Grasping for straws?

....

@Muffin-
You'd be more serious and plausible if you didn't pull this out of thin air. As it is, reads like a manufactured wall of text PBP. Not buying this. I agree that Ythan has made some completely nonsensical posts, and his grasp of mafia theory is far lacking...but you aren't really showing he is scum, and more importantly, if you really took issue with so much of his posting, then why was there no mention of this in previous days?

If you actually took the time to read my posts, you'd notice that I only thought Ythan was scummy after I saw the interplay between him and Robo who I had a guilty on. Not scumhunting is a big tell in my book, and Ythan wasn't doing any. You seem to disagree, so perhaps you can quote some of Ythan's posts that you consider to be serious attempts at scumhunting?

........

@Muffin-
Interesting claim. I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched. Strong questions on why investigate Robo though...

I thought the way robo survived the zerg rush was suspect, and I figured in a town-PR-heavy game like this an increased lynch threshold would be a good balancing tool to make scum more powerful.

Btw- mafia false claiming cop should be

expected

in any format where death does not reveal affiliation.

Derp derp derp. That doesn't mean my claim is automatically false.

.....

-Muffin, confirm that your abilities come from an IDD.

You need to go back and read more carefully. I clearly stated they do not.

.....

The claim about Muffin seems to hold...somewhat. It's reading like MoI is a jailkeeper/ability thief. This explains why BV failed to target Fur. This explains how Muffin survived but was also blocked. There is likely an additional scum team member with role blocking abilities who coordinated with MoI to initially block Robo and then block Muffin.

So I'm scum but scum is roleblocking me? Make up your mind please.

...........

@Muffin-
Why did you investigate MoI and why did you investigate Robo?

I already stated why I investigated MoI previously, and you can look a few lines up for my reasoning behind investigating robo.

[Muffin]

Red text are my responses, btw

[Muffin]

Claiming in as little time as possible minimizes the chance that whatever you already claimed was made-up. The longer you take, the less informative confirming your predecessor's information becomes.

I think if he was going to fakeclaim, he could have easily read the thread in the 24 hours grace period before he was required to reply with his confirmation of replacement. In short, on a forum, I don't think time stamps are a very reliable source of information (unlike IRC, say).

[Muffin]

I'd like to hear back from Kast before responding to MoI's big post

[Muffin]

Whoa.... hang on a minute.

I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched

I agree with Shotty's target choices, and, until hearing MoI's claim, Muffin would have been my top suspect for today

So, you say I shouldn't have been lynched D2 after claiming, but you agree with Shotty's target choices (i.e. killing me, immediately after having claimed cop?)

vote Kast

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
You realize a vig kill is different from a lynch yes? Early game, town shouldn't lynch claimed cops (or claimed docs); especially not on D1. Allowing that provides scum with excuses for engaging in and encouraging bad game play.
Vigs should absolutely kill their top suspects, even more so if it's a target the town as a whole is unlikely to lynch.

I'll respond to the rest later but I just want to point out that this is ridiculous.

By your logic, if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim, I should vig him the following night since town is unlikely to lynch a claimed doc with no counterclaim.

[Muffin]

if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim,

The problem with your hypothetical reveals your general weakness that you've exhibited throughout the game. Upon hearing the counterclaim, you need to evaluate your read of the suspect.
--If the claim mitigates your suspicion, then the player likely will drop below your top suspect. In this case, you should go after whoever your new top suspect is.
--If the claim is implausible, or there are just no other candidates anywhere near as scummy, then your suspect is likely to remain as the top suspect and should still be vigged.

Because vigs are infallible and never mis-read a player, right?

[Muffin]

Because vig kills are guaranteed to be fully in control of town AND because allowing vigs to kill their ToC does not give scum leeway to excuse scummy behavior.

Your sarcastic objection is irrelevant to the point.

You'll forgive me if I dismiss your condescending "advice" since I'd be a dead town player.

[Muffin]

But you are running away from the basic point: you assert that it is inconsistent for a player to oppose a lynch of a claimed cop, while simultaneously advocating that a vig should night kill the same claimed cop, provided that the vig thinks the claimed cop is actually mafia false-claiming cop. The position is not inconsistent; it follows basic mafia theory.

Nowhere did I claim it was inconsistent for a player to oppose the lynch of a claimed cop.

Furthermore, if your theory results in a dead town player it can't really be ideal, can it? Not if you adhere to the definition of ideal (" conforming to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence"). Perfection or excellence would not result in a dead town player. Sorry.

As for this bit:

But for the record, yes, I would "forgive" a player for abandoning the right/logical/rational play, provided the player had shown he was incapable of understanding that play (for any of a number of reasons, e.g lack of ability, stubbornness/arrogance, emotional investment,...).

That reads as if you're implying I'm incapable of understanding the correct play. If that's the case, then fuck you.

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
Please put winning the game above your pride.
-There is no need to lie. You clearly and unambiguously posted your reason for voting me as a perceived discrepancy between my objection to lynching a claimed cop and my support for Shotty's attempt to vig his top suspect. This is what I responded to explicitly; this is what our entire side dialogue has referenced.

Somewhere we are miscommunicating.

-Ideal play does not ensure nor require ideal results. I am assuming you don't have any experience with game theory (or for whatever reason you are choosing to ignore it), but an ideal strategy is based on what returns the best results in the long term, individual games notwithstanding.

No, that's YOUR definition of an ideal strategy based on some misinterpretation of "ideal". Ideal, taken as "perfect" is something to aspire to but obviously unattainable. This isn't online poker where you can try to play the odds and hope to make a profit in the long run. I take each game as it comes and try my best to win it. Losing a game but saying "oh well, my play was consistent with some established meta" does not strike me as a job well done.

-I do not know why you fail to understand the correct play. I explicitly left it open ended and offered several possible explanations for your failure. You are free to clarify what you do not accept or understand. If you would like me to guess, then please say so clearly.

Yeah, your offered explanations were "you can't understand because you're too emotionally invested/stubborn/arrogant." You can go to hell.

Again, you are avoiding the main point. If you want to continue discussing theory, I'm going to put any such future responses in spoiler tags as to not let that distract from the game relevant stuff.

I'll gladly drop the theory discussions, as I don't think your theories are worth a damn anyways.

[Muffin]

@Fur-
-Muffin's claimed N2 action was investigating MoI, though he says he survived Shotty's kill attempt due to hiding in a bulletproof closet. That does raise a point which seems to have been lost/dropped.

Side note: Hiding in a bulletproof closet could fit but is unnecessary with Shotty's flavor. Shotty was told there was a lump on the bed under the covers, he shot it, but before he could check if Muffin was dead, he heard a noise so left.

@Muffin-
-Someone asked this previously, but do you actually have a passive ability and/or any explanation/idea for how/why you survived the kill attempt?

Actually, going back I think I misread that particular PM. I was out and about trying to find the missing IDD that MoI stole when someone shot at my bed. Since I wasn't in the bed I wasn't killed, and then I hid in the closet in fear for the rest of the night.

I have no passive abilities that I am aware of.

[Muffin]

@ Muffin -- So the vig/kill missed you N2 because you used an active ability...?

And that means that someone DID shoot at you the night that Ythan died?

HOLD THE PHONE.

This officially does not make sense. Ythan was killed N2. Muffin has claimed someone shot him N2. So either non-scum killed Ythan (and haven't owned up to it), scum had 2 kills, or Shotty was non-scum. Right?

Nope, the vig/kill missed me due to some other player's influence.

[Muffin]

But yes, someone did shoot at me night 2. I'm pretty sure I've been upfront about that the whole time.

[Muffin]

Well, 4th possibility is that Kast and Muffin are scum together, I guess, but ye know.

@ Kast -- I think there's still a lot to discuss. I may've overlooked or misunderstood something. I need Muffin and especially MoI to evaluate that and see what they think.

I need to do a really big re-read. Give me a day or so to formulate things.

[Muffin]

Yeah, it just didn't sink in at the time.

So, it looks like you're voting Kast. Why on earth are you doing that given that Ythan died the same night someone shot you? Do you think he's an SK, or that an SK/vig killed Ythan? If so, how do you explain the total lack of an NK N3? I protected successfully *AND* Furco was killed?

a) I'm not convinced kast is a vig and not an sk
b) Furco is still alive so that last bit confuses me