Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

[Kast]

But for the record, yes, I would "forgive" a player for abandoning the right/logical/rational play, provided the player had shown he was incapable of understanding that play (for any of a number of reasons, e.g lack of ability, stubbornness/arrogance, emotional investment,...).

[Muffin]

But you are running away from the basic point: you assert that it is inconsistent for a player to oppose a lynch of a claimed cop, while simultaneously advocating that a vig should night kill the same claimed cop, provided that the vig thinks the claimed cop is actually mafia false-claiming cop. The position is not inconsistent; it follows basic mafia theory.

Nowhere did I claim it was inconsistent for a player to oppose the lynch of a claimed cop.

Furthermore, if your theory results in a dead town player it can't really be ideal, can it? Not if you adhere to the definition of ideal (" conforming to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence"). Perfection or excellence would not result in a dead town player. Sorry.

As for this bit:

But for the record, yes, I would "forgive" a player for abandoning the right/logical/rational play, provided the player had shown he was incapable of understanding that play (for any of a number of reasons, e.g lack of ability, stubbornness/arrogance, emotional investment,...).

That reads as if you're implying I'm incapable of understanding the correct play. If that's the case, then fuck you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll have some time later to correct Kast's increadibly scummy comments.

But in the meantime look at the content (and I use the term loosely) of his posts.

He's spamming the thread with attacks, game and role speculation, and anything and everything but actual hunting.

The hallmark of desperate scum.

More votes for Obvscum Kast!

[Kast]

@Muffin-
Please put winning the game above your pride.
-There is no need to lie. You clearly and unambiguously posted your reason for voting me as a perceived discrepancy between my objection to lynching a claimed cop and my support for Shotty's attempt to vig his top suspect. This is what I responded to explicitly; this is what our entire side dialogue has referenced.

-Ideal play does not ensure nor require ideal results. I am assuming you don't have any experience with game theory (or for whatever reason you are choosing to ignore it), but an ideal strategy is based on what returns the best results in the long term, individual games notwithstanding. As an analogy, imagine a situation in which a player under threat of lynch claims cop and is not counter-claimed. The "ideal" strategy is to not lynch the player. This is the ideal/best/rational/logical/whatever-you-want-to-call-it move regardless of whether the player is *actually* town or mafia. There have obviously been games in which scum false claimed cop. Within those games, the

ideal

play is still the same, even if the results would be bad.

-I do not know why you fail to understand the correct play. I explicitly left it open ended and offered several possible explanations for your failure. You are free to clarify what you do not accept or understand. If you would like me to guess, then please say so clearly.

Again, you are avoiding the main point. If you want to continue discussing theory, I'm going to put any such future responses in spoiler tags as to not let that distract from the game relevant stuff.

[Kast]

@MoI-
-How does pursuing a scummy player not constitute scumhunting?
-Please answer the questions posed to you.

[Iecerint]

@ Kast -- It's not that delaying a claim upon replacing in is scummy in the sense that it makes someone likely scum, but that it is consistent with a scum player under suspicion having to scour the thread to make certain he doesn't miss any aspects of a fakeclaim before claiming. And I've caught scum (and helped confirm town) with quick nameclaims where a player replaces in late-game, so I think it's a decent heuristic.

I still don't think you've come up with an explanation for the no-kill N3. Do you think another protective role that could possibly explain things is keeping quiet? Because unless scum just forgot to send in an action or something (e.g. Ythan is a fairy godmother-type Beloved Princess), the lack of kill N3 was town-motivated.

We were going to massclaim with your role first originally. I was gauging interest in continuing.

Edit: Your discussion of ideal play seems to have little to do with this game, and at any rate glosses over secondary evidence that can change the Bayesian probabilities of various events, etc.

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
Please put winning the game above your pride.
-There is no need to lie. You clearly and unambiguously posted your reason for voting me as a perceived discrepancy between my objection to lynching a claimed cop and my support for Shotty's attempt to vig his top suspect. This is what I responded to explicitly; this is what our entire side dialogue has referenced.

Somewhere we are miscommunicating.

-Ideal play does not ensure nor require ideal results. I am assuming you don't have any experience with game theory (or for whatever reason you are choosing to ignore it), but an ideal strategy is based on what returns the best results in the long term, individual games notwithstanding.

No, that's YOUR definition of an ideal strategy based on some misinterpretation of "ideal". Ideal, taken as "perfect" is something to aspire to but obviously unattainable. This isn't online poker where you can try to play the odds and hope to make a profit in the long run. I take each game as it comes and try my best to win it. Losing a game but saying "oh well, my play was consistent with some established meta" does not strike me as a job well done.

-I do not know why you fail to understand the correct play. I explicitly left it open ended and offered several possible explanations for your failure. You are free to clarify what you do not accept or understand. If you would like me to guess, then please say so clearly.

Yeah, your offered explanations were "you can't understand because you're too emotionally invested/stubborn/arrogant." You can go to hell.

Again, you are avoiding the main point. If you want to continue discussing theory, I'm going to put any such future responses in spoiler tags as to not let that distract from the game relevant stuff.

I'll gladly drop the theory discussions, as I don't think your theories are worth a damn anyways.

[Furcolow]

I'll have some time later to correct Kast's increadibly scummy comments.

But in the meantime look at the content (and I use the term loosely) of his posts.

He's spamming the thread with attacks, game and role speculation, and anything and everything but actual hunting.

The hallmark of desperate scum.

More votes for Obvscum Kast!

This, to me, reads like an appeal to emotion. MoI is begging people to find him cute and side with him with his word choice.

[Furcolow]

bv310 you read like lurkerscum to me. I believe you might be MoI's scumbuddy.

[Kast]

@Kdub/BV/Iec-
Note that MoI continues to avoid answering why he would have targeted Neto with the stolen rolecop ability. Read through and see if he posted anything at all indicating suspicion.

Note MoI failed to explain why he would RB a claimed cop instead of RBing someone he strongly suspected of being mafia.

Also, please review Neto's vote for Robo; someone who he obviously had history with and with whom he had played before. Also keep in mind that Neto admitted he understood exactly why Robo was paranoid about him and even provided the explanation for everyone.

Also, BV, consider MoI's claim to have successfully targetted Fur against your attempt to target Fur.

@Muffin-
-If you think I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting your stated reason for voting, then please clarify/explain.

Spoiler: Muffin's Attempts to Distract

You can try to turn it into a semantics argument, but you're just going to reveal your own ignorance. Ideal play, by your own definition, does NOT guarantee ideal results; it simply means play that "conform

to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence", in other words, play that follows the

best

strategy. Try taking up this discussion post game.

If we ignore your attempt to argue semantics, we can easily see that "ideal play" is a fairly standard term which is easily understood to refer to the play which gives the best chance at the best outcome. Not lynching a claimed cop/doc is one example of ideal play. It isn't guaranteed to result in a win, but it improves the chances for town. Similarly, vigs killing their top suspects is another example. The two together form examples of "best" or "ideal" plays for a townsperson.

-I also suggested you might be incapable of understanding and that it could be something else entirely. If you wish to clarify which it is, then say so. If you disagree with the premise, then please attempt to explain your position. Address the content instead of hiding behind semantics arguments please.

-Your valuation judgment is provided independently of any analysis or basis. I strongly suggest that you hold off theory discussion for post game. You might learn a thing or two and it's always better to raise the level of play on this site.

@Iec-
I may have missed posting this, but my guess would be that scum tried to kill Fur (a confirmed role-cop) and failed since he was hiding himself. This would fit with MoI roleblocking our actual cop and not worrying about the nigh confirmed role-cop.

[bv310]

I'll have some time later to correct Kast's increadibly scummy comments.

But in the meantime look at the content (and I use the term loosely) of his posts.

He's spamming the thread with attacks, game and role speculation, and anything and everything but actual hunting.

The hallmark of desperate scum.

More votes for Obvscum Kast!

This, to me, reads like an appeal to emotion. MoI is begging people to find him cute and side with him with his word choice.

And this reads to me like someone trying to throw shit at a wall and see if it sticks.

BV: To be clear, you are claiming MoI used his second ability (N3) on you and it confirms him as town to you. Is this correct? If it does not actually confirm MoI, then please clarify.

Regardless, please share your thoughts on the discrepancy I raised.

It does not confirm him as town, but does confirm him as Rikku, who I HIGHLY doubt is scum in this game.

Also, what post are your referring to in the bolded? I couldn't find it in your iso.

PREVIEW EDIT: MoI's targeting of Furc N1 explains why I wasn't able to target him. Also, I reread my N1 PM, and it doesn't seem like I was unable to target him, but that I was simply not needed due to an other influence.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This, to me, reads like an appeal to emotion.

Then you have no idea what an Appeal to Emotion is. Not that I’m surprised. Go to the Wiki and do something productive with your time. Like perhaps learning what the phrases you so badly mangle are and how they apply.

Given that rules state this is a Limited/Delayed reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.

No, it’s an attempt to lynch scum. And let’s actually reference the rules you were so careful not to quote.

This game is limited/delayed reveal.

Character name will be revealed, but you are left to speculate at their alignment, and the true powers they might have possessed

Bolded to show your lack of reading ability. So once again you’ve made another unsupported and incorrect argument.

Explain why you targeted Neto.

Because I wanted to see what his abilities were and assess whether they were likely to indicate a Town role. Because as a logical player he would be a strong Town asset.. Precisely the reason you killed him.

Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.

I chose to steal Muffin’s ability for two reasons.

1. To confirm his claim. The chances of an alignment cop being scum in a mini are practically zero.
2. To prevent Scum (aka you and your partner) from killing / roleblocking him and having Town lose a scan.

Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.

Typical weak scum play – demonize the dead who can’t fight back.

Neto’s play is so superior to Furc’s in every way this game it’s not funny. Continue to attack Neto and champion our own VI as much as you like. It only shows how weak your opinions are.

It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.

The lulz. You have no clue what vote analysis is. Vote analysis consists of reviewing a string of votes and counts and looking for patterns. What you are doing consists of “Derp he’s scum because I say so.”

To those reading – note that complete weakness of his position that he resorts to attacking my intelligence instead of making a logical, well reasoned post. Just like he was taking Ythan to task for.

Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.

DERP. Flavor is flavor. Any attempt to champion certain flavor as important but other flavour as meaningless is just plain sad.

Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.

Destroyed is clearly the generic death flavor as shown in the MOD’S PAGE 1 POSTS. Learn to read. I love the unsupportable ‘Black Helicopter’ conspiracy theory you throw in. Lulz he’s Mafiaz becauze he can thinkz for hizself.

Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.

More unsupported garbage. If you can provide a quote where I say this do so. Otherwise you are just lying continually hoping that if you say it enough it will stick. You know … the Appeal to Repeition fallacy scum love to use.

KAST – ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS YOU IMMEDIATELY. I KNOW YOU IGNORED THEM EARLIER BECAUSE YOU CAN’T PROVIDE NON-SCUMMY ANSWERS.

Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?

Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.

And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.

Furthermore answer the following questions –

1. Why did you incorrectly state that there was not a Death N2 when Ythan died?
2. Why did you blatantly attempt to make the argument that Neto could have scanned Innocent by using his ability on a Town player?

More Funny Statements by Kast –

Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.

It’s a grade A WIFOM sandwich. Reaper I’m sure appreciates this. LOL, Furc and millar can’t be scum together because no scum would ever do that.

Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.

LOL. Mafia’s kill ability isn’t Factional because it happened in a few other games. Thus please ignore the sound logic backed by 99% of games.

Stretch Armstrong must be getting very tired with you around Kast.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A Note to all Town Players -

Take a good look at Kast's play.

He's spamming the thread attempting to turn the game into an emotionally charged affair because he doesn't have much room to stand on.

He can't support his point so just throws lies and misrepresentations around.

Lastly review Neto's play for yourself and decide if his attempts to paint Neto as scum who played a bad game hold water. Especially in light of his views on Furc.

When you are done digesting you know what to do .... vote for obvscumKast.

[Kast]

@BV-
-I was referring to his initial claim that Grapple Beam copies all abilities targeting the user to the target. This is a discrepancy with the kill flavor of Shot and Destroyed; which implies different causes for death.

-Does MoI's ability confirm he is Rikku (check with mod)?
--Is it possible mod gave a Rikku fake claim with abilities that match both Rikku and some other character?
--Why do you think Rikku cannot be evil?
-What do you think about MoI failing to provide reasons for his claimed targets?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Look at all the

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS FROM MY PREVIOUS POST

that Kast has once again chosen to ignore.

Scumtastic play - demand others be accountable but don't answer questions yourself.

Vote Kast for a less scummy Theme 1000.

[Iecerint]

I'd missed Furco's N3 hide claim because he listed it as hiding on "the second night." <_<

OK, that makes it possible that MoI is scum. Background probability would appear quite low, though.

@ MoI -- Have you responded to Kast's point that two town role-cops, and a MuffinCop, and a IecJOAT is a lot of investigative power for town? I could justify a lot of it on the basis that the game is delayed reveal, but that does seem a bit loaded, and it's what I'm forced to believe if you're town (since I'm town, you confirm Muffin, and Furco was...well, I suppose he's more of a wild card, but I wouldn't say he was scum with millar under any circumstances if he were any other player).

[Kast]

Given that rules state this is a Limited/Delayed reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.

No, it’s an attempt to lynch scum. And let’s actually reference the rules you were so careful not to quote.

This game is limited/delayed reveal.

Character name will be revealed, but you are left to speculate at their alignment, and the true powers they might have possessed

Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.

Sarah Kerrigan is revealed to have been the Queen of Blades

Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.

Explain why you targeted Neto.

Because I wanted to see what his abilities were and assess whether they were likely to indicate a Town role. Because as a logical player he would be a strong Town asset.. Precisely the reason you killed him.

You chose to investigate a player because you thought he was pro-town, DESPITE ADAMANTLY REPEATING in game that proving role abilities does not prove affiliation. Please link to a game in which you as town decided to try to investigate and find potential town instead of investigating to find scum.

Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.

I chose to steal Muffin’s ability for two reasons.

1. To confirm his claim. The chances of an alignment cop being scum in a mini are practically zero.
2. To prevent Scum (aka you and your partner) from killing / roleblocking him and having Town lose a scan.

-Why wouldn't you stop a kill?
--Why wouldn't you try to confirm suspected vig/scum and if vig control a kill you obviously didn't trust in Shotty's hands?
--Why wouldn't you use the investigation on suspected vig/scum to guarantee lynch (instead of targetting a lurker who wouldn't be in the running for a mislynch anyway)?

Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.

Typical weak scum play – demonize the dead who can’t fight back.

Neto’s play is so superior to Furc’s in every way this game it’s not funny. Continue to attack Neto and champion our own VI as much as you like. It only shows how weak your opinions are.

You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.

It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.

The lulz. You have no clue what vote analysis is. Vote analysis consists of reviewing a string of votes and counts and looking for patterns. What you are doing consists of “Derp he’s scum because I say so.”

To those reading – note that complete weakness of his position that he resorts to attacking my intelligence instead of making a logical, well reasoned post. Just like he was taking Ythan to task for.

I've provided my reasoning in the following post. How about addressing that and/or providing your own.

Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.

DERP. Flavor is flavor. Any attempt to champion certain flavor as important but other flavour as meaningless is just plain sad.

To be clear, you are claiming that kill flavor is no different from any other flavor. Please be clear.

@Mod-

Please clarify whether kill flavor is meaningless fluff or whether it actually indicates different game mechanics.

Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.

Destroyed is clearly the generic death flavor as shown in the MOD’S PAGE 1 POSTS. Learn to read. I love the unsupportable ‘Black Helicopter’ conspiracy theory you throw in. Lulz he’s Mafiaz becauze he can thinkz for hizself.

Clarify. Nowhere in Page 1 does it say that destroyed is "generic kill flavor". It explicitly states that individuals who are lynched will be "Destroyed" and nothing more than that.

Your reference to conspiracy theories betrays a failure to understand the nature of a mafia game. There *IS* a conspiracy, the mafia are conspiring to kill the town. Any time anyone scumhunts and looks for possible tells, they are looking for evidence of that conspiracy. Your ridiculing is an invalid dismissal or defense.

Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.

More unsupported garbage. If you can provide a quote where I say this do so. Otherwise you are just lying continually hoping that if you say it enough it will stick. You know … the Appeal to Repeition fallacy scum love to use.

Spoiler: Done

Neto’s main ability was Grapple Beam. This ability could be used on a player. That player would be immune from ANY night abilities that targeted them directly.

Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target.

The effect of the ability does not automatically mean that the flavor of the ability must be duplicated. Nightkills are the only ability that inherently has any flavor. Keep in mind that I paraphrased the information that Mod provided to me. The phrase “Any ability used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target” is not a direct quote from the Mod.

Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?

I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

In case your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, I think there is one remaining scum and MoI is it.

Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.

Read the post.

And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.

Be more clear. I pointed out that MoI-scum is probably lying about using Fur's stolen role cop ability on his buddy Neto-scum. MoI's claim about Neto-scum's ability has a huge, objective flaw. The ability itself is likely to be a scum potential protection/potential misinformation ability. Neto likely didn't even use the ability on Day 1, much less use it to target Spyrex. What he probably did is target Spyrex with a "generic" mafia kill.

1. Why did you incorrectly state that there was not a Death N2 when Ythan died?

To be clear, I did not explicitly state what time period in which there was no deaths. But to be clear, you are correct that there was a death on N2.

2. Why did you blatantly attempt to make the argument that Neto could have scanned Innocent by using his ability on a Town player?

? Please clarify. I doubt you would invent an ability for your scumbuddy completely out of the blue. You likely based your Grapple Beam claim on an ability that Neto actually had (and *modified* it to account for two investigations).

Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.

It’s a grade A WIFOM sandwich. Reaper I’m sure appreciates this. LOL, Furc and millar can’t be scum together because no scum would ever do that.

Agreed, there is a WIFOM counter to this point. It's about as strong as stating scum wouldn't unprompted false claim cop on D1 with no ability to back it up. It's an objectively and severely bad thing for scum to do. There is a very rare chance that it might happen, but that is extremely unlikely.

Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.

LOL. Mafia’s kill ability isn’t Factional because it happened in a few other games. Thus please ignore the sound logic backed by 99% of games.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I wasn't explicitly clear. It should be apparent, but I'd rather get this straightened out prior to wasting time going through games and pulling statistics just to have you dismiss them with semantics arguments. How do you know that the mafia kill will not appear as a player ability if investigated by a role cop? This is the crux of this objection; MoI's claim that a role cop investigation would not reveal kill abilities if targetting a mafia player.

Assuming this is actually your objection, then a couple points:
-Games in which a goon's ability to kill appears in the role PM and would appear to a role-cop investigation are just as common as games where they would not appear.
-In our specific case, one in which MoI believes mafia does have specialized kill flavors (and specifically that at least one mafiate kills with the flavor "Shot"), there are exactly zero instances in the entire Coney Island thread in which scum have kills with a specialized kill flavor that would not appear to a role cop investigation.

[Kast]

To clarify, since MoI clearly enjoys taking things out of context:

You aren't addressing any of my content

. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.

The bold section refers specifically to the quoted issue. MoI addresses none of the content of that issue. There are some other issues which he does address and some which he does not.

[Iecerint]

@ Kast:

1. The Mod's bolded bit refers to the limited rather than delayed aspect of the reveal mechanic, or that's how I've interpreted it.

2. Finding that Muffin didn't have a Cop ability would've found scum. Framing it as searching for town is misleading.

3. I don't understand what separates Neto's attitude toward Robo from, namely, mine.

4. If you think MoI is the last scum, why are you framing so much of Muffin's play in terms of scum machinations? (Yeah, you also throw the "ideal play" deviation criticism.)

[Kast]

@Iec-
1. Based on what info we have available to us, the section MoI bolded refers to the immediate limitation of the reveal. The delayed portion very clearly refers to what happened with Kerrigan. We likely will never get the full reveal of actual role abilities until end game, but for all intents and purposes, we are likely to get the delayed reveal of affiliation. The only question there comes what triggers the reveal (e.g. game periods, time, random mechanic, player mechanic,...).

2. MoI has roleblocked two cops. This is undeniable fact.
-The first cop was a role-cop and he claims he used the role cop to investigate Neto in order to confirm a townie. Why attempt to investigate a townie instead of attempt to find scum?
-The second cop was an affiliation-cop; yes the investigation of Muffin would most likely confirm Muffin town (ignoring possibilities of SKs), however he claims to have used the stolen investigation on a lurker instead of using it on either of the two players he claims to suspect as scum. This makes no sense.

3. You did not vote for Robo. BV and Shotty placed early votes. Neto placed a vote that did not make sense given what he was saying, and which was the key vote outside of Millar's hammer.

4. I thought Muffin was scum for the majority of my re-read. I no longer think Muffin is scum. I have continued to point out instances of weak play from Muffin in response to his usage of crap-logic and generally bad play to challenge my earlier statements. Some of this is in defense of myself, and some of it is simply to set the record straight.

The primary argument currently between us (that I see) is that Muffin voted me for what he sees as a discrepancy, and I disagree with his assessment. He explicitly stated the reason as a discrepancy between my opposition to players voting a claimed cop (Muffin), and my support for Shotty's attempted vig kill on the same claimed cop. I maintain that not only is it consistent, but it is also a reflection of best or ideal play for a vig to kill his top suspect, regardless of whether that suspect is a claimed PR. That has devolved into discussion of whether it is appropriate play for a vig to kill a claimed PR; and from there to whether such a thing as ideal play even exists.

None of the current discussion involves characterizing Muffin's play as scum machinations. It does involve characterizing Muffin's play as irrational.

[Iecerint]

1. I agree.

2. OK, that makes more sense. I agree that trgeting Neto N1 doesn't make much sense. I think bv'd be a decent alignment Cop target, though, since he's harder to get a read on otherwise.

3. I didn't vote for him, but I rhetoric'd against him.

4. K

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and the Beautiful - Vote Count 4.8

MagnaofIllusion [2] - Kast, Furcolow
Kast [2] - MagnaofIllusion, Muffin
Furcolow [1] - bv310

Not Voting [2] - Iecerint, Kdub


With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, August 24 at 9:30 pm EDT.

[Furcolow]

@magna, I know what it is, your peacocking read the same way that someone begging and flailing did to me

[Kdub]

There are some issues I have with Magna (his power still seems more like a scum ability, and I'm not entirely satisfied with the explanation for the kill flavor discrepancy), but he has been open with his very detailed action claims, and everything else seems to fit with what others have claimed. Kast has built some reasonable arguments, but the main problem I have with it is that it is entirely predicated on Neto being scum. The fact is, we simply don't know. I know Kast thought Neto was scummy, but nobody is perfect with their scum reads, especially based on D1 alone. Personally, I didn't find Neto particularly suspicious. If Neto was not scum (and again, we don't know and there is no objective evidence as we had with millar), then Kast has no case. It just seems like the wrong play to say "player X is scum for these reasons as long as we assume player Y was scum" when the only evidence that player Y was scum is subjective reads that only the player making the case seems to agree with.

With that said, I'm not quite ready for a lynch just yet. I think there is more to be learned from this debate. Also, some questions for people:

Furcolow:
What do you think of Kast's idea that Neto was scum? Do you agree?
What do you think of Shotty/Kast's claimed targets N1 and N2?

Magna:
Without quoting the mod's PM directly, can you be as specific as you can about how grapple beam works? Does it explicitly say it copies abilities, or just the effects of abilities? That's an important distinction. Can you ask the mod for clarification if possible?

Kast:
I may have missed this, but what is your opinion of Muffin claiming a guilty on Robo during D2? You think Muffin is town, so do you think he is insane, or was Robo scum as well?

[Furcolow]

@Kdub: Neto may have been scum. STTB/Kast claims are hitting neto night 1, and attempting to hit muffin night 2, when muffin said he hid, right? I do not doubt his claims, and feel like his play in relation to STTB's has been a breath of fresh air. I've been suspicious of MoI all game, and even moreso with how he played in HP mafia, so having someone who I assume is town pushing for the lynch of a scum is always a good thing in my eyes.

@Iecerint: If you had to pick someone to die between MoI and Kast, who would you pick, and why?