Newbie 888 - Game Over!

[kunkstar7]

/confirmado...!!

[kunkstar7]

I have finished one game (walrus_helmet was in that one), and am playing four others besides this one, all on this site.

[kunkstar7]

I tell you right now, don't self-vote. It almost never is good. In fact townie self-voting won me my first scum game . And I don't think the game is started yet lol.

[kunkstar7]

Oh no you didn'!

Vote: Lastsurvivor

. OMGUS at its finest.

[kunkstar7]

Lol I meant my vote against you On the defense already?

[kunkstar7]

Kunkstar, you voted Lastsurvivor because he voted you. Do you believe that he is more likely to be scum because of his vote?

No, his vote provides no true information whatsoever. What my vote served to do was allow questions like the ones you pose.

[kunkstar7]

I'm new to the site, so I might be missing the obvious "Edit" button, but can you tell me how to edit, to avoid double posting?

You are correct, under most circumstances there is no edit button for posts.

At this point in the game RV's are there to get people to talk or try to get scum to slip up. It can actually greatly help the town because you never know if Kyiv or whoever gets voted gets really defensive over a random vote. To me that's a scum slip and can help the town win.

This is a good statement, but I think that unless you provide some small reason, regardless if its random, then the vote is more likely to cause a defensive reaction. By simply saying I voted for "so and so" because it came up on a dice roll, they aren't as likely to react. For example my vote on Lastsurvivor. it sparked a reaction did it not? Had I posted "I vote Lastsurvivor becuase random.org said so", it would not have been as likely to receive a reaction.

I feel like much can be learned in these firsts couple of days, and randomly voting someone off isn't going to help the town. A vote with some bits of reasonning behind it is better than picking someone at random and voting for said person.

Someones got to start the game. You pick a random person and create a reason to fit. What would you do if you had to make a vote to start the game?

My reason is exactly as I said, when I saw this game start I skimmed the thread and then I voted. Then I looked over the thread once again, I didn't look at the vote tally until after I voted. I'd change my vote but at the time I have no reason to. (I guess I should look back again to make a more educated vote.)

What this is showing to me is you aren't paying attention to the thread properly and seems like you don't care who gets lynched, as long as it someone. What if your vote had been the lynch vote on an early RVS bandwagon? Why do you say you would change your vote? I'm under the assumption it was simply a random vote. Yet you are quick to say you would change it. If you feel that the vote was unwarranted to begin with, why make the vote to start with?

[kunkstar7]

@Lastsurvivor: It wasn't that initial response that makes it seem defensive, it has been your reaction to people questioning your misinterpretation.

The reason I said I wanted to change it was I would have felt it would have been better to question/vote for a player who was not being questioned at the time. Such as Walrus right now, I feel like he's just lurking so I would prefer to change my vote to him but I believe my vote for the time being is good enough unless something turns up that can change my mind. I made a vote because I wanted to be part of the discussion and voice my opinion, and possibly contribute to lynching a scum, but that's why everyone votes isn't it?

So you feel that a random vote based on the fact that it was the person posting above you is better than voting someone because they were, as you believe, "lurking". Assume for this situation that the lurking is a viable reason. In a situation where someone is truly lurking, they are harming the town by not posting, searching for information and scumtells, or trying to hide from suspicion. So do you believe that is not a good enough reason to turn away from a random vote for something with a logical reason behind it?

[kunkstar7]

I know walrus wasn't lurking. But Magic Trainer stated that he felt like he was. So if he believed that he was lurking, regardless if in actuality walrus was not, isn't that a better vote than a random vote?

[kunkstar7]

So you feel that a random vote based on the fact that it was the person posting above you is better than voting someone because they were, as you believe, "lurking". Assume for this situation that the lurking is a viable reason. In a situation where someone is truly lurking, they are harming the town by not posting, searching for information and scumtells, or trying to hide from suspicion. So do you believe that is not a good enough reason to turn away from a random vote for something with a logical reason behind it?

If you've read my post I said I

felt

like he was lurking not that I was 100% sure. The game itself started only a few hours (I might have this wrong) before but everyone other than Walrus had posted which leads me to believe that there is a possibility of him lurking. I have also said I wanted to hear Walrus's defense before I changed my vote which was why I chose not to change my vote right away. Now that I he posted I know that he wasn't lurking, I prefer to be sure about this things and find more about the current situation instead of changing my mind every few posts. The answer to your question would be a "Yes" However my thougts about Walrus lurking were incorrect and as I just said I wanted to be sure before I changed my vote.

Clarification please!

The question was:

So do you believe that is not a good enough reason to turn away from a random vote for something with a logical reason behind it?

Your answer was:

The answer to your question would be a "Yes"

Is "Yes" your answer to the specified question?

Secondly, I spy contradiction in your Post 81.

First off in reply to me you state:

If you've read my post I said I felt like he was lurking not that I was 100% sure

So if not being 100% sure and feeling something isn't qualified enough for a change from a random vote, then why is your Lastsurvivor vote good enough?

The beginning of your statement on Lastsurvivor goes as:

Reading over this thread again I believe Lastsurviver is our best bet as to who the scum are.

Are you 100% sure? Basically your reasoning against Lastsurvivor is he seems annoyed and irritated and is posting sarcastically (although I agree with the sarcasm not being good.) This once again boils down to just feelings.

I was curious at to if you were scum there could have been a possibility that you were the scum and you just wanted to take your accusation then slap on my vote to make me look guilty. Then you might have thought as you said my defense was good and others would not agree with you so you decided to change your vote and try to lynche someone else.[.quote]

This is just WIFOM (I think I used it in the right context). Kyiv mentioned something about this earlier in regards to Medix, but I think it applies here as well:

Another baseless accusation. This is not something you can either prove or disprove, it's just WIFOM, which is something dangerous especially in Day 1.

Right now I believe Random has a chance to be good, the scum however I don't a clue on hower I do suspect Walrus has a chance of being scum. I want to wait and see his defense before/if I change my vote.

Why do you believe Random has a chance to be good?

Honestly my feelings about Magic Trainer right now sum up as:

Unvote, Vote: Magic Trainer

[kunkstar7]

My vote for Lastsurvivor was because I think he's scum, no, I am not 100% sure and I'm certain I never will be however I am sure enough to vote. It seems to me like you think my opinions and thoughts about this game are set in stone, when they're not.

I'm not saying your opinions/thoughts need to be set in stone. Actually that would not be beneficial to the town. What I am pointing out is how your arguments are inconsistent. You started your post saying you didn't want to change a random vote to a vote on walrus because you only

felt

he was lurking, but then you continue the post with a vote on Lastsurvivor based off the

feeling

that he is being irritated? How is that in any way consistent?

That's just the way I play, if I think someone is the mafia I vote for them, as I've seen everyone else do every game I played. This is a newbie game and you can't expect everyone to play exactly like you.

Can you explain this, I'm not understanding this. Why would I expect anyone to play like me?

And you still didn't clarify your answer to the question I posed earlier.

[kunkstar7]

L-1 is a good technique to put pressure on a

likely

suspect imo. In cases where the entire basis for voting someone is absurd (such as a random vote bandwagon) L-1 is not good.

I think you lurk, and although I don't normally find lurking scummy, you might be a different case.

Why would you not find lurking scummy? Can I get an example where it somehow is beneficial to the town? In my view lurking deprives the town of good posts to obtain information from, and if the town allows lurkers, the scum can easily just fall off the radar, easy win.

I think Medix is only at L-2 right now.

[kunkstar7]

Lurking is not beneficial to the town at all. I just think that lurking does not automatically make you scum, and is a bit unreliable.

Ok, I can agree with that.

[kunkstar7]

This is odd, Sounds to me like you're simply saying that as a way to avoid telling us your thoughts. Also why round two, how do you even know you'll survive in the night? I think this can be a scum tell, almost refusing to give information and automaticaly assuming he'll live in the night sounds suspicous to me.

It's not like I'm hiding an information, I don't have any information. And I'm not sure I can survive to next day though, either I'm lynched, or NKed.

Honestly it doesn't seem like you value your stake in this game. You don't have any information because you do not take the time to try to get information. Secondly, if you are not the lynch target today, and to me it seems you are growing more likely, you would not be a likely NK target if you are town. If you are town the scum are having a field day with you. You provide them with easy cannon fodder for the lynch, saving them trouble of actually developing a case against someone. If you want the town to win, since that's the town win condition, you need to get here, and start providing content and scumhunting.

So basically you expect a serious response to a vote that you claim is not serious? You're putting the burden of proof on the wrong place. If you have a serious attack, you may expect a serious response. But if your vote is completely random, there's simply not much to respond to, and ignoring it is perfectly fine.

Patriot has explained in the post #49 that RV stage can make a scum slipped.

As this has been said, a serious vote requires serious defense. Random votes do not. Secondly, to even elicit a response you need something besides just a random vote. This was your random vote that you expected a counter from?

Vote RandomMaster

Hello all.

I discussed this earlier with PD09, but it was regarding how a dice roll doesn't cause reactions. My comment is posted below for reference. It also applies in this situation where there is no reason whatsoever (unless "Hello all." is your reason??) Without anything to counter, he would have made himself look very scummy being defensive about a completely random vote with no reason whatsoever.

At this point in the game RV's are there to get people to talk or try to get scum to slip up. It can actually greatly help the town because you never know if Kyiv or whoever gets voted gets really defensive over a random vote. To me that's a scum slip and can help the town win.

This is a good statement, but I think that unless you provide some small reason, regardless if its random, then the vote is more likely to cause a defensive reaction. By simply saying I voted for "so and so" because it came up on a dice roll, they aren't as likely to react. For example my vote on Lastsurvivor. it sparked a reaction did it not? Had I posted "I vote Lastsurvivor becuase random.org said so", it would not have been as likely to receive a reaction.

You need to step up and start getting into this game.

Unvote, Vote: Medix

[kunkstar7]

Lastsurvivor, you sticking out to me as trying to post a lot but not putting out a lot of content. Most of your posts have just been one liners about this or that, and you haven't accused anyone besides a little argument with Magic Trainer and going along with the Medix wagon. What are your thoughts on Magic Trainer? Is there anyone besides Medix you found scumtells from?

[kunkstar7]

About Magic Trainer: I felt his post about walrus and his vote on your were inconsistent in logic. Saying that we should wait for a while for a lynch, while is not a bad thing as you don't want to quicklynch while there is still discussion ongoing, offsets me as we should not just sit and wait, we should pressure suspects for information and scumtells. By just waiting you will not force anyone into a slip-up, I'm sure the scum will be much more comfortable lurking and "waiting" out till the deadline in hopes of a slip-up.

The above is also my input regarding something that hasn't been mentioned, along with calling you on your posting style. I do not say your voting pattern is bad as I am not a quick voter myself, just that your posts have been mostly one-liners and along with the tide, mostly on Medix.

[kunkstar7]

From rereading my post where I voted Medix, I think I'm leaning more towards because of lack of content. He has been very weak and basically if he isn't scum then he is not helping the town at all right now, providing the scum with an easy lynch target.

[kunkstar7]

Is that always the case? In this case yes, since he's at L-1. But early votes can be used as pressure votes regardless if they are acting really scummy or not. Although it should be said that you shouldn't ever vote for someone you have a strong town read on. But in the cases of null reads then voting them for lack of contribution and pressuring them is an alternative to voting because they are scum. Yes I do believe that he his actions so far are more likely indicators of scum, so I have no problem with seeing this lynch through.

[kunkstar7]

@Magic Trainer, you can search each players post using the "Display posts from previous" feature at the bottom. Reading a single players post in isolation is referred to as "iso".

As for the partner voting him, that is a possibility and happens, but in my view its hard to tell who the partner could be in this case as Medix hasn't done much.

[kunkstar7]

If Medix gets replaced, and his replacement can put forth content, are you going to lynch him/her still?

If Medix gets replaced, we would give the replacement a chance to prove otherwise. If the replacement is unsatisfactory as well, then I believe the lynch should proceed.

[kunkstar7]

Lynching for that reason is, in my experience, the biggest cause of mislynches.

I completely agree with this statement. It is the case of lynching for noncontribution rather than scumminess. Until either Medix shows up or replaced, there shouldn't be a judgment on him.

My suspicion is on LS, as he is being the little voice in the back, egging anything that comes up on.

[kunkstar7]

That's very true, but I think the fact that a townie could just be trying to avoid being in the spotlight because he's too afraid makes lurking a bit of an unreliable scumtell. I'm not defending Medix though, since I think that my scenario might not be the case for him, and I want to hear what he has to say.

Especially the little addition of "I'm not defending Medix though." Why did you feel the need to add that in?

Kyiv, a couple pages ago, you put an IGMEOY onto Patriots. What about his behavior do you not like, and do you still think that you need that IGMEOY?

It was a IGMEOY. Not a vote. In such case I don't think it has that much weight to it, and you final section of that question seemed like you attributing too much weight to it.

[kunkstar7]

Definitely. Straight up. Everything Gayle says is pure truth.

[kunkstar7]

Unless I'm misreading my own sentence, I was agreeing with you. Or do you consider that attacking you?

Sorry I'm burnt from my day, so I'm poking a bit of fun.

[kunkstar7]

That's cool.

Serious stuffs:
@LS: The post that you were replying to wasn't relevant. The fact that you needed to specifically point out that you weren't defending him seems like distancing in my view.

I do have to say that on reflection that my suspicion of you came mostly from the way I perceived you and you have proven that that suspicion is misplaced.

[kunkstar7]

@PD, I'm just going to use your own words to explain what I think of you putting me on your scum list.

Sorry, but its hard for me to defend myself when you don't even post a reason why you want to lynch me.

You mention absolutely no suspicion of me until this point.

And you asked me who I thought was Medix's partner if he was scum. I would have to say you and Kunk in that order.

Now, I can understand LS's FOS and Gayle's vote. They provided

something

to explain their suspicion. You are just going with the flow without providing any backing or input of your own. That I don't like.

About my comment when you entered the game Gayle, it partly has to do with another game you are in. I know my intention behind that comment, that's why I moved on to different material.

[kunkstar7]

Kunk, I did not say my reason that I have suspicion on you because its only suspicion. Right now I only have a gut feeling that you could be scum. When you use my words against me I don't think that that's valid because Gayle voted me and didn't give me any reasons why but I only had suspicion against you.

Actually Gayle did give reasons so it is valid. He did mention suspicion of you without reason but in a following post justified it with more than a "gut feeling".

I'm okay lynching you because you have contributed little, you defended walrus out of nowhere, you spew the 'townies should not care about being lynched' garbage, you set a deadline for Medix to respond to you, you push for a policy lynch and then backpedal, and the fact that you've not questioned anyone or anything except for Medix.

PD

-PD needed justification for putting Medix at L-1, so he gave Medix a deadline.
-When LS called him out on rushing the the lynch, he essentially advocates a policy lynch.
-When LS explains that even if that is the case, there is no reason to rush the lynch, PD backs off.
-When LS questions about lynching a possible replacement, PD sets the groundwork for justifying the vote later.
-When LS asks him if town should only lynch those they believe to be scum, PD advocates a policy lynch again.

Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

A no-lynch is almost never favorable. How is the town supposed to get anywhere if they don't even use the one power we have? Even if you are the cop, your reasoning here is horrible. If you are cop you are dead, unless you are protected. Disregarding protection, we will not have a result in the morning anyway, so your asking for a no-lynch because you can get an investigation is pointless.

I really don't like PD's post here with the claim, so I'm really hesitant of believing it.

[kunkstar7]

"Claiming" unnecessarily at L-2, did you even count votes PD09? There is no way that a true cop would have outed himself so easily.

*No Comment*

Just hope we can win this one Kyiv.

This right here solidifies his position as scum. He knows he's going down so he's either ruining the game for Kyiv or trying to throw some confusion into town while he still can.

Vote: PatriotsDynasty09

[kunkstar7]

I was really hoping PD was just doing the latter, trying to add confusion. No, he had to go ruin the game.

[kunkstar7]

Interesting night kill. Gayle puts super suspicion onto PD and Kunk, gets one of them right, and is now dead.

Anyone thinking what I'm thinking?

Nice soft suspicion there. Why don't you just come out and say, "I THINK KUNK IS SCUM!"

I like your "brilliant" plan to cast suspicion on me, keep it up.

Vote: Lastsurvivor

[kunkstar7]

Kunk, you've been acting a bit strange recently, and some things you're saying now seem to be inconsistent with things you've said before.

From rereading my post where I voted Medix, I think I'm leaning more towards because of lack of content. He has been very weak and basically if he isn't scum then he is not helping the town at all right now, providing the scum with an easy lynch target.

That was your reply to LastSurvivor's question about if you were voting Medix because he was either scum or lack of information.

wrote:
Lynching for that reason is, in my experience, the biggest cause of mislynches.

I completely agree with this statement. It is the case of lynching for noncontribution rather than scumminess. Until either Medix shows up or replaced, there shouldn't be a judgment on him.

My suspicion is on LS, as he is being the little voice in the back, egging anything that comes up on.

(The reason that MS is reffering is lynching not because of thinking one as scum, but because that one is not helping) So if you completely agree with MS, why are you keeping your vote on Medix/Gayle? You're saying that it is the biggest cause of mislynches, but yet you continue on as if you want Medix gone. Also, if you have your suspicions on LS, why not vote him?

wrote:
If Medix gets replaced, and his replacement can put forth content, are you going to lynch him/her still?

If Medix gets replaced, we would give the replacement a chance to prove otherwise. If the replacement is unsatisfactory as well, then I believe the lynch should proceed.

Later on, he replies with this:

Definitely. Straight up. Everything Gayle says is pure truth.

All that Gayle said before this post which, from what I understood was sarcasm, was that he was reading the thread and claimed town. So, where was his chance to prove otherwise? Also, can I just state the times between the posts? 11 minutes. That's rather quick to base your judgment of someone who still hadn't read the thread.

In addition, from what I understand as sarcasm, you seem to imply that Medix/Gayle is scum in your view. Doesn't that contradict what you said earlier, when you said that you voted Medix not because of you think he's scum, but rather because he's not helping the town?

Right now, I can't judge Gayle immediately since he only started this game and catching up, and also, as he stated, he cant prove his claim of being town in 2 posts. I have no reason to unvote at this time.

I'm gonna

FoS: kunkstar7

because of the reason that I stated above.

Starting from the top.....

Medix was our lead at the moment, due to his posts being weak, inconsistent and also sparse. These things are tells for both scum and town. My leaning at the time was that he was probably acting more townie newb vibe rather than inconsistent scum. Since the reasons I had voted Medix for were also tells for scum, I found no reason to unvote for there was a chance he could be scum. My suspicions of Lastsurvivor were mostly gut feelings, not substantial reads. There wasn't reason to switch a vote from someone who displayed some scummy actions to someone with even less real scumminess. Tell me the logic in that.

About the Gayle sarcastic comment thing...it has to do with playstyle he was currently displaying in another game that I was reading. I repeat again that it was not meant to demean Gayle before he had a chance to read the thread. It was kind of like saying hi to someone you knew who just replaced into your game. Except I said that. Notice I did not press ANY case resulting from his claim of townie. I made my comment, then proceeded onto other matters. I gave Gayle that chance to prove his innocence, and he did well, with us lynching scum rather than a townie.

As for my Lastsurvivor vote, it was not omgus. It was a "if your gonna be suspicious of me be suspicious of me" vote. I didn't like how he was trying to point out that the nightkill made me look scummy, without actually stating that it made me look scummy. Its kind of like a scum softclaiming they are town.

If I am the cop, I investigated Gayle last night.

[kunkstar7]

He posted 3 times and didn't even attempt to vote. He just attempted to throw suspicion on Kunk which is a scummy thing to do. He couldn't at least posted some evidence

[sarcasm]Thanks for the awesome rehash of the last page.[/sarcasm]

See? Clearly designated.

This is a really bad post.

This game does

NOT

require you to vote. I for one have been a very sparse user of votes. Just because he has posted odesn't mean he has to vote someone, take MichelSableHeart for example, he has posted yet isn't voting currently. Explain to me how being suspicious of someone and pointing out how they are suspicious is a scummy thing to do? I think you missed the entire point of my vote. I voted Lastsurvivor not because of his suspicion of me, but because of the way he attempted to cast suspicion on me.

Lets say that Lastsurvivor had said,

I believe kunk is scum because Gayle was suspicious of him and PD, and since PD was dead kunk wanted to get rid of the person suspicious of him.

I accept that. Clearly stating the reason why he was suspicious of me, and that he was suspicious of me. I would then go onto to try and defend myself against such accusation.

Yet his post was "hmm interesting nightkill, Gayle was suspicious of PD and kunk...are you thinking what I'm thinking?" (Paraphrasing)
He doesn't try to directly cast suspicion, he plants the seed of suspicion, without making his position clear. This is scummy.

Onto Gayle's case.

It went as follows:

The Kunk
1)I think that his attack on MT didn't pan out, so he switched to Medix, who was a much easier target.
2)Claims putting someone at L-1 is good for pressure.
3)Says his vote on Medix was because of Medix's lack of content. Aka Policy Lynch.
4)Agrees with Michel, but keeps his vote on Medix.
5)Quickly tries to discredit me though I had posted very little.
6)Later claims that he was agreeing with me rather than attacking me.
7)Blows off the last two points with a 'That's cool' and changes the subject.

Numbered for answering.

From what I see, only number one can be constituted as evidence for a case.

2) This is not scummy. My view and comment of L-1 as pressure is quoted as such:

L-1 is a good technique to put pressure on a

likely

suspect imo. In cases where the entire basis for voting someone is absurd (such as a random vote bandwagon) L-1 is not good.

How is putting someone at L-1 for pressure scummy, if they are a likely suspect? If we have a good suspicion of them L-1 can be the breaking point where the suspect cracks under pressure or stands up and present a clear argument proving to us they are town instead.

3 and 4 were answered in my last post. Most of the case on Medix was attributed his horrible posting and weak arguments. These are both indicators of scum and poorly played town. With the chance that Medix was scum, then it is worth the vote when he was the current lead at the time.

5,6, and 7 were all related to my comment regarding Gayle's entrance. I have already stated my reason for the comment. If you want to make a case out of me for this comment, then why didn't you also make a case on Gayle because he claimed town?

[kunkstar7]

Interesting night kill. Gayle puts super suspicion onto PD and Kunk, gets one of them right, and is now dead.

Last I read this was evidence, something new that no one had pointed out, albeit poorly pointed out. He did add more to the case on me, he provided an explanation for the night kill.

[kunkstar7]

Brilliant deduction.

Add that comment to my case too.

[kunkstar7]

336 is two parts.
The first part is in response to Flareonage's vote on Lastsurvivor, respectively Post 332. I am arguing that if the following quote is Flareonage's reason for voting Lastsurvivor as well:

He posted 3 times and didn't even attempt to vote. He just attempted to throw suspicion on Kunk which is a scummy thing to do. He couldn't at least posted some evidence

Then it is a poorly founded reason for voting Lastsurvivor, for the reasons I say in Post 336.

The second part begins where I say "Onto Gayle's case".

In Post 328 by RandomMaster, he uses Gayle's case on me as evidence for a FOS on me.

Lastsurvivor also believes this case is evidence against me when he mentioned:

Evidence? Wha? Do you need me to post the case Gayle made on him?

From what I understood this quote to mean was that he believed that Gayle's case was enough evidence on me.

The second half of 336 was meant to point out that in fact Gayle's case was quite weak, with only one point of actual merit.

[kunkstar7]

Weird, I see MS's post in ISO, but not here.

[kunkstar7]

Patriots mostly ignored Kunkstar. He responded to some questions by Kunkstar, and gave a mild defense in ISO #17. The most interesting thing though, is that he places Kunkstar third on his suspicion list, initially with no reasoning given, later explained as gut. I can easily see his behaviour there as distancing.

I don't see why he would try distancing himself from me when there was no connection between us at the moment. Adding me to his scumlist only effectively served to try and bring up suspicion against me, not something scum would do to their partner when they are being ignored for the most part.

ISO #6 by Kunkstar is interesting, in that his stance on random voting is effectively defending Patriots.

Patriots random vote was a result of a dice roll. I explained in ISO #6 that I did not agree with this style of voting as it provides nothing to cause a reaction to. His idea that random votes are there to test reactions and begin discussion I do believe in, and I think most people do, even yourself. Yet I disagreed with his style of voting with dice.

Kunkstar played an important role in the early pressure on Magic Trainer, but wasn't the one who started that wagon. But after Magic Trainer gave his explanation in #109 and Medix became the big wagon, Kunk switched without another word on Magic Trainer.

In Post 109 I felt that Magic Trainer's response was adequate. So I went looking elsewhere.

Kunkstar's vote on the Medix bandwagon matches how scum would behave toward such a wagon. When it's obvious that most people are agreeing with it and there isn't much chance of repercussion, he joins the wagon of the likely mislynch.

Unfortunately I don't have a defense against this.

ISO #16 by Kunkstar is remarkable. When asked why he wants to lynch Medix, he replies that if Medix isn't scum, he is providing the scum with an easy lynch target. A statement along these lines is repeated in ISO #20, when he agrees with me about voting for someone not helping the town being the biggest cause of mislynches. Yet he continues to vote Medix.

I explained that I did believe there was a chance that Medix was scum. Since there was a likelihood that Medix may have been town I saw no reason to switch my vote when I had no substantial case on another.

Medix was our lead at the moment, due to his posts being weak, inconsistent and also sparse. These things are tells for both scum and town. My leaning at the time was that he was probably acting more townie newb vibe rather than inconsistent scum. Since the reasons I had voted Medix for were also tells for scum, I found no reason to unvote for there was a chance he could be scum

Kunkstar's response to Patriots is mainly about how Patriots voted Kunk. He doesn't comment about the other points brought up against Patriots.
Kunk doesn't take a strong position on Patriots when he is the focus of discussion. He mentions being hesitant to believe the claim, but isn't really attacking Patriots.

I questioned what I felt was relevant to me that I could comment on. His placing me on his scumlist for no reason was horrible, from any view. Strength of position is relational, I felt that I was opposing PD09 strongly, yet you feel otherwise.

[kunkstar7]

Kunk's my top lynch right now, due to just about everything MS said and his reaction to my "soft suspicion" a while ago.?

Why is my reaction to your soft suspicion scummy? Please clarify reasoning. If I had to guess I'm going for overdefensiveness. But please, state your reasoning why its scummy.

I find you scummy (dunno about Kyiv) because you haven't exactly had an original thought this entire game.

That's it?

I'm not exactly known for original thoughts and contributing. People hate it but I think its better then the scum who contribute and mislead the town

Ummm...then whats the point of playing...? if you aren't going to contribute then why are you here?

[kunkstar7]

Ok. Over-anything is purely perspective. It can be either attributed to play-style, current mood that person is, whatever. As such, I do not think that it is a viable reason to call something scummy.

It is each member of the town's job to make sure that they protect and defend themselves from false accusations to help prevent a mislynch. It is also town's duty to search out tells in other player's posts in hopes of finding scum. I found something scummy in your post, and I was defending myself from said accusation.

I don't see why he would try distancing himself from me when there was no connection between us at the moment. Adding me to his scumlist only effectively served to try and bring up suspicion against me, not something scum would do to their partner when they are being ignored for the most part.

There was no reasoning attached to your placement there. He could have put any player in the game there with the same result. It is highly unlikely that such a move results in more suspicion on you. It does allow him to say "look, I already suspected kunk day 1" in the event that you are lynched and turn up scum.

This is true. Yet the same could be said of your second sentence. "Look, I already suspected {{player's name}} Day 1". By not attaching a reason he just showed that he was trying to find someone quickly to get suspicion on without real effort, and it makes it highly unlikely that he foresaw such a situation.

I explained that I did believe there was a chance that Medix was scum. Since there was a likelihood that Medix may have been scum I saw no reason to switch my vote when I had no substantial case on another.

Medix was our lead at the moment, due to his posts being weak, inconsistent and also sparse. These things are tells for both scum and town. My leaning at the time was that he was probably acting more townie newb vibe rather than inconsistent scum. Since the reasons I had voted Medix for were also tells for scum, I found no reason to unvote for there was a chance he could be scum

The fact remains that you were voting someone who you essentially believed to be town, even though you agreed that was the biggest cause of mislynches. Because there are two scum in the game, there must be players who you believe are scum, or of whom you simply don't know what to believe. Voting anyone of them is better then voting someone you belief is town.

What I'm trying to say here was Medix could have gone either way. His play was both bad scum and bad town play. With a chance that he may have been scummy, then yes it is worth pressing that case to see what it leads to. I could not see much else to go on at the moment, so pushing the Medix case was what I felt was right at the moment.

[kunkstar7]

@mod: how is finding a replacement going?

Flareonage, don't you have any thoughts on my analysis of the game whatsoever?

This is true. Yet the same could be said of your second sentence. "Look, I already suspected {{player's name}} Day 1". By not attaching a reason he just showed that he was trying to find someone quickly to get suspicion on without real effort, and it makes it highly unlikely that he foresaw such a situation.

Sorry, I can't agree with that analysis. post #258 shows me that Patriots was very much aware of the possibility of distancing.

Point conceded. I think this is just going to be WIFOM, but with such blatant pointing it out:

And inb4 "now he just trying to distance himself away from his partner"

I really don't think that was what he was looking for. This statement implies that he did not want to be seen like he was distancing from his partner, so I doubt that he was trying to get town to believe that he was distancing himself from me.

[kunkstar7]

Given PD's late-game attempt to sabotage things with fake-outing Kyiv, I don't think he would be above fake-preempting distancing to induce confusion here either. The fact remains, he put you on his scumlist for no reason, and then later fulfilled the exact behaviour MS mentioned he would in his case - he points to it and says "Look, I was suspicious of Kunk!".

No he does not use it in the way MS mentioned. That situation only carries through if I am lynched and turn up scum, and PD09 had been alive to be there for it. That technique refers to him "clearing" himself as town because he was suspicious of scum. Going along with this and seeing that I'm at L-1, my role is Vanilla Townie. Due to this, he can't have been using it for this reason.

[kunkstar7]

Kyiv, what about my actions today have not been fantastic as you say? No you can not use post activity as a viable point in your case, as it would only be hypocritical from you.

[kunkstar7]

But why would scum hit his partner at all? That's just dumb.

Not really, especially if they know their partner was going down, they would try and distance themselves. Another option would be that the scum is trying to make themselves look town, because when his/her partner was led to a lynch, and they were a crucial part of that lynch, they won't look scummy, they will have gained town points by leading a lynch on a scum.
The tricky part here is the degree in which they bus their partner. If their partner has suspicion, it is a good gambit to try and lead the lynch on them, for the town points. But if the partner has no suspicion originally, then it becomes risky and sort of defeats the purpose because your partner would have been safe to begin with.

[kunkstar7]

Relating this to PD on almightybob, I actually see distancing a greater chance here. Look at the entirety of PD09's suspicion on almightybob:

Now for my vote: I am going to

Vote almightybob

These quotes really bug me:

Rereading PD just now, but off the top of my head I can't say he's struck me as hugely Town so I'll probably be OK with his lynch today.

I'm still going back looking for more scum, but I would much rather lynch PD than nobody.

He is saying that he doesn't find me scummy but he okay with my lynch. This is blatantly going with the flow, which scum can easily do without bringing too much attention to themselves.

That's it. He doesn't even really press it, so I see him trying to distance more than anything.

Also on his next post he switches off of almightybob, not the vote though, to saying:

When I am revealed to be the cop watch for Gayle and Kunk. Look how they disregard my claim.

[kunkstar7]

Kunk, today you have voted for LS for soft suspicion, which I think is an overreaction, though perhaps warranted. Before your case on AB, you mostly defended yourself or your statements, and now it looks like you've abandoned your LS case for a bob one? Or are you still on LS?

As it were my vote is still on Lastsurvivor, yet only because of the soft suspicion issue. It really feels like he is flying under the radar today. I made a comment on the almightybob case as I have done so yet and it's the current topic at hand.

Welcome Charlie, hoping to see some comments/opinions/suspicions regarding the game soon.

[kunkstar7]

As it were my vote is still on Lastsurvivor, yet only because of the soft suspicion issue.

This is a weak reason for a vote at this stage. Not gonna sway me away from you if that's all you have.

You are correct it is a weak reason. At this point I don't have a case built against, well, really anyone.

Any case on Flare/Charlie is based mostly on lurking and on Flare's blatant saying so.

One thing that bothered me is how Kyiv effectively has managed to not take on any suspicion this entire day due to the PD09 incident. Everyone just avoided it due to the large amount of WIFOM. If she makes it through the night I say she needs true scrutiny tomorrow.

[kunkstar7]

I'm definately not going to support a Kyiv lynch today.

Because of opinions like this. Hopefully with today flip and the nightkill town will be able to get a better look at the remaining players tomorrow. At this point I don't think I have enough time to properly scrutinize your actions and change the entire town's mind if I could bring up a suitable case.

[kunkstar7]

Day 1 started of with pressure on Magic Trainer. There were two players heavily involved in this pressure: Last Survivor and Kunkstar. the wagon was started by other players (particulary RandomMaster), but those two players pressed on and on.

What is interesting here is that Patriots didn't comment on it at all, when he showed eagerness to join the Medix wagon a few pages later. The most obvious explanation for that is, IMO, that his buddy was heavily involved in the discussion, either being attacked or one of the main attackers.

In both of these points I can be replaced with Lastsurvivor. He was a main attacker of Magic Trainer, and as such is a possible partner that Patriots ignored when he didn't comment. I find it weird that you use the pressure on Magic Trainer as a point, as when it was occurring you were fine with it:

I like the pressure on Magic Trainer, and was surprised to see that he had no votes on him at the top of this page. Walrushelmet, why did you FoS instead of vote him in post #67?

So for you to use my pressure on Magic Trainer as a point against me is hypocritical. Although the second point regarding Patriot is ok.

On a related note, Patriots is defending Kunkstar in #190.

I can kind of see this, but its more of a stretch. I see PD09 just trying to keep the wagon on Medix going.

Interesting to note: the last paragraph of #218. kunkstar downplaying other players suspicion on Patriots.

It was an IGMEOY. I don't think it held any weight to begin with. View Kyiv's post. Actually thank you for pointing this out. Kyiv's actions toward PD09 in this section regarding the IGMEOY is suspicious. She IGMEOY/FOS'ed Patriots on a gut feeling:

Can't really say, but his behavior so far has been off-putting. I think he is someone I want to be wary about.

If you say that PD09 putting me on his scumlist with no reasoning but a gut feeling is distancing, then this in effect is exactly the same thing Patriots did. She can now point out that she was suspicious of PD09 and use it as a point to defend herself. Except this time it works, because PD09 flipped scum and she is alive.

[kunkstar7]

Lastsurvivor, I was going off of what MichelSableHeart said:

Day 1 started of with pressure on Magic Trainer. There were

two players heavily involved in this pressure: Last Survivor and Kunkstar

. the wagon was started by other players (particulary RandomMaster), but

those two players pressed on and on

.

Emphasis mine.

So unless you wish to counter MS's comment on that as well, the point is valid.

[kunkstar7]

EBWOP: And just because someone is questioning you, it does not mean that you can't be pressuring in return. Most exchanges between two players pressure each other, its not just one way.

[kunkstar7]

At this point Kyiv I'm not defending myself. We are too close to deadline to try and sway this lynch, don't want to splinter it into a no-lynch. I know this isn't a game end as its not LyLo, and following my claim of Vanilla Townie its not a town win either. I will try and point out as much as I can see before this day's end, hopefully finding something the town can use tomorrow.

[kunkstar7]

Your missing the point where MS stated you were one of the main attackers. As such, I think you should be defending yourself against his comments, not mine. I'm pointing out to him that me and you are interchangeable in that situation according to his comments.

[kunkstar7]

MichelSableHeart, theory question. If there would be no hammer by deadline, would it be wrong for a townie to self-hammer to prevent the no-lynch? Or would a no-lynch be suitable in such situation?

[kunkstar7]

What are you referring to exactly? Clarification please.

[kunkstar7]

Good work peoples. The WIFOM with Kyiv really threw a wrench in things.

[kunkstar7]

You helped him out more than you realized. It was so frustrating getting lynched when Kyiv was still possibly scum and everyone wouldn't touch it.

[kunkstar7]

I find it funny that the only game I have won as town so far is the one I was lynched before endgame. Apparently the secret to town winning is to lynch me early