Newbie 888 - Game Over!

[pablito]

boberz has replaced RandomMaster. Thanks boberz!

[boberz]

hi guys, im in. I will read and post to you before i go to sleep. Bear in mind it is 3.10 am that is an effort. Give me credit.

If anyones online it would be nice for someone to write a paragraph summary at the end so i have a summary last post, but cheers if not. Btw the guy i am replacing id very different from me, i can tell that by the name. I do not like random votes, random kills random anything pretty much.

Any way have a nice game all.

[boberz]

I am really sorry but im tired. I have read the first 6 pages, will do the next bit tommorow. Here are my notes, extensive i know but i am reading everything.

---

Page 1/
I feel procrastination from some players.

Page 2/
Last survivor defensive, post 30
MS at last gets game going i would have done it on first post.
kunk #39 closes off the discussion he claims to start
last survivor #42 and #44 defensive again after being told not to.

Page 3/
MT vote kyiv #52 i dont really get why, RVS is over surely anyone can see that now!!!
MT feels very inexperienced #56
#58 it would appear i was wrong on my predecessor, apologies
MT and RM feel like a noob discussion to me (no offence)
kunk harsh on a MT #65
walrus thought what i thought, but a long time after.
Kyiv #73 good, but i wouldnt have explained my vote on medix in the same way;

Page 4/
Patriots on MT in post #80 MASSIVE BIG BIG BIG DONT FORGET THIS NO1 TARGET AT THIS POINT
MT ludicrous in #82
Does LastSurvivor protest too much? just realised i dont liek the implication of his name either.
kunk looking better
Last survivor should use less quotes, atleast he learnt how to do them. IC should have showed him earlier actually, os IC lurking?
Its amazing how easy it is when you know #96
MS #98 im not sure what to make of it but worth a note.

Page 5/
Walrus #110 sounds genuine to me
MT and Last survivor are both talking too much without content on this page (and last.
A;mighty bob speaks sense #119

Page 6/
MT #125 made me think scum, could explain cbb yet
and now MT mentions cop, cmon surely not. Actually beware in case he is.
#129 Patriots v LS
almighty bob, #140. severa'l show me several, in fact show me more than 2
medix should have an avatar, or atleast have it mentiones, i blame IC but each to their own.
too much l1 and l2 chatter now, it was dealt with ages ago

---

most likely to me is MT, patriots didnt exactly help you tbh. Medix (who he still is on my read) seems a strange kill maybe something changed. Ill do it tommorow.

[boberz]

ok second half of my reading:

Page 7/
MS #157 could be defending a patriots mistake, he does it well so could be ok, but its not how i read it.
Medix screams noob to me

Page 8/
MT #191 dont vote medix.
Game is intolerably slow, and im not even playing it yet
Michel trying his best I think #200
l1 can be worthwhile, doesnt mean you want to lynch necessarily

Page 9/
Kyiv #208 well done my friend well done. Everyone should be dooing this all the time.
LS wants to end the day the ludicrous man #211 = either trying to make patriot look a tad better or an unwillingness to scumhunt

Page 10/
Replacements might help game, lets hope
gayle quick on kunk, but im not complaining. kunk made a joke i think and gayle came back twiece and hard.
gayle begins to slip into petty stuff, dates etc.

Page 11/
Bob in on gayle was bad, i sense gayle a touchy towny
gayle #257 is what i was thinking, and now we have hindsight, i will presume kunk has been hit hard today
flare should read, the fact he doesnt normally read is no excuse, i presume you have read by now
i had better on kunk by #260 maybe gayle is a bit annoyed at early attaack from kunk
#269 could be bussing i awaint his read on PD, i bet he makes him scum with only one thin new reaso, and agress with everyone else... if he does im shouting scum at him
patriots had his first good page for me here btw

Page 12/
just realised there is much too much softclaim nonesense. who cares. if he claims something later use it against him if not tell him off after the game. cmon think.
Last survivor appears to be watching the second half of this game on satellite tv, a little bit after everyone else.
gayle is not playing well but safe i think, so stop bickering with him
ok bob doesnt get on that PD wagon, but asks others to check it out, actually towny so no shouting is necessary
gayle learn to love iso, it is good
kunk #281 looking safe i think, probs not patriots partner, patriot doesnt seem to be brilliant at doing this
Bob I am now shouting at you that was awfull bussing 283 you are now top of my scum list at this point.
bob also mentions no lynch dont be silly, ludicrous man, your scum
BUT patriots shouldnt be pointing out bobs bussing if they are partners so maybe not, wandering towards wifom
patriots claim, hehe
now patriots wants a no lynch, i am finding this mildly amusing, because of hindsight.
everyones onto patriots, surely scum should be on him by now. currently on him gayle, kunk. expect bob in soon
hard to glean anything from the investigation of claim cos i know it to be false
eye on kunk!!! why is he not still attacking
PATRIOTS ASKS FOR A CC !!! BRILLIANT, i sense desperation
kyiv is in, basically sees sense quickly
bob's in late. oi am suprised, but his earlier bussing has helped

Page 13/
pg12 was fun but not much there i didnt know, gmae is better now.
flare is here again, did you ever read this game????????
what was #303, basically i dont care how many people shout wifom he is not scum with kyiv
bob doesnt think he can win... even if i were a mafia kyiv i would give it a go, i thnk bob doesnt want a loss on record.
michel cop thing feels weird, defo town now but has a higher prob of being cop
LS stating the obvious

Page 14/
the gamelivened up from pg 10ish very good new players you made that happen
dont like #326, but then i dont like #325 one of thems town, probs both
#329 michel needs people to cover his potential of cop, i no longer think he has a higher prob of being cop so ignor previous musings as such
still too many quotes though, it is really difficult to read
has flare read game yet
kunk was hit, but flare must have read the game to hit him... there was no indication he actually read. i may seek explanation.
ls making more sense in #342
kunk is confusing me but i actually read that originaly in his favour, so who knows.
michel #349 we disagree, i sense a couple of pages away this is where i may steer discussion. Kyiv is probs safe though
I think random actually played quite well i read him as safe, 'but i would say that wouldnt i' but bob was worse than him surely

Page 15/
michel on kunk, good theory. But scum wont act homogenously but u might be right.
its not randommaster, but rather than prove that i will try to show it. I will elaborate on these points though:
patriots did whatever he wanted his reactions with most can be read as bad.
i think the medix thing from everyone was a bit noobish, it basically was chatting about lurking and its implications, it delayed scum hunting by loads. All were responsible, iot was very frustrating to read
glad you read random town in the end, its what i did.
michel on flare, as i say patriot ignored more than one person (you yourself prove this) not solid enough for me.
i agree kunk is worst of those three, i think you should look at bob again
kunks feeling stressed, relieve pressure or he wont improve his game if he is town.
flare pr fishing!!! have you actually read flare
flare looks bad again #363
kunk has regrouped in #368 he needed to in all roles

[boberz]

I kind of expect many wont read all that so apologies. But it was usefull to me and actually gives a lengthy anakysis of the whole game more digestable than a re read.

---

Safe to me, and therefore people I want to work with in finding scum are:
kyiv
michel

My eyes are on kunk and last surviror. LS is going under the radar but hasnt done wrong for a while. kunk the opposite, but i want to let him chill for a bit we will return but let him explore others.

Almighty Bob, reading this game ii had no idea you were IC. I had a massive scum read on you in the second half of the game. on page 11 you went in on gayle in a bad way i think. As I read #283 I cringed i had predicted it earlier, i jst really thought you were scum here. Bob first to mention no lynch, but read a second time slightly towny, crumbing it in for patriots, he took the bait. fair play. I think bob has been brilliant scum, but read as i did concentrating and hard i think he can be found. Bob explain the giving up, and explain why you thought it was defo kyiv.

BUT flare you are scum. But before i explain why i think this can you tell me something. Have you read this game yet??? if not go read it.

[Lastsurvivor]

I read it all, and it's pretty pretty interesting. I am going to comment on some of it if you don't mind (mainly on stuff that's relevant to me)..

I want to know what you mean by procrastination by some players on pg 1. The game hadn't exactly started yet.

I'm not going to bother responding to defensive on pg 2, you've read all about that. But what do you mean by "defensive again after being told not to." Not to what? I don't recall anyone telling me to not be defensive. Kyiv also voted me for no reason, and then said that it was because of circumstances that weren't defined, so I have a right to be a little defensive.

Not sure what you mean on pg 4. However, my name is actually related to the show Survivor on CBS. I realized that it really should have been "SoleSurvivor", after I made it, and it would actually sound better, but ah well.

Totally not sure what you mean on pg 5 either.

On pg 9, I really felt that we were coming to a conclusion for the day, and I was trying to ask questions to make some content also. The activity was generally dying, so I was like, "K, guess everyone is fine, so I'll consider ending the day.". Then content started picking up, so..

I posted that on pg 13 to see how Kunk would reply. Didn't exactly like the reaction.

About going under the radar: Earlier on when I posted a lot more, I only had one game on my plate. Then I added three, so my activity divided amongst those four games, so I can see how it would appear that I was trying to go "under the radar."

[boberz]

Of course I dont mind you commenting, thats what this is about.

Page 1 procrastination: game wasnt started but all exempting one had turned up. Only one question posed people answering with as little detail as possible. I think if more questions are asked, it means that there is more to go on than just random votes, which btw i would have stopped quicker. But this is ancient history, i dont care now.

Page 2 defensiveness, ancient history again im not lynching for it. I think you went in slightly too hard on the OMGUS and people pointed it out, you lolled, this constitutes a warning in my book. You then overreacted to Kyiv so that is what i meant. Ages ago i dont care tbh, just my thoughts as i was reding it.

your name was a throw away remark about this being a team game and not a personal one, mafia are the only people who need that mentality. This doesnt make you scum at all i just noticed it.

I dont see what there is to misunderstand, i thought you posted lots without content. It is too long ago for me to care overly, them more recent stuff matters more. but for examples of you see #102 #112 and #124 but i only counted three relevant points you make in the page.

Pg 9 our first major disagreement. Kyiv had created stuff to talk about, i specifically praised this in notes, before your musings to end the day, this was one of the things that made patriots look bad. infact your #209 is interesting intereaction with patriots actually cheers for making me look again.

in stating the obvious i meant not writing off kyiv. but your little gambit there was neutralto me it sounded strange but the reaction was fun.

Fair enough. You were the first to respond to me. I was not meaning it was massively deliberate, i was just worried that with so many on kunk we were missing some.

---

My main difference from most is my read on bob, what did you make of bob???

[pablito]

almightybob and Flareonage prodded

[Flareonage]

Move left

Move left

That should place me on B2, front post says I'm on B7 when it should say I'm on B4

[Flareonage]

wrong thread lol

[Flareonage]

BUT flare you are scum. But before i explain why i think this can you tell me something. Have you read this game yet??? if not go read it.

I've skimmed through it

Charlie replaces Flareonage

[Lastsurvivor]

Ahh, I see what you mean now @ pg 1 and 2. I figured you were curious about the name thing, which is why I told you about it.

I do see the point behind my lack of content thing, and yeah it was kind of a problem. I think I'm getting better though.

During Page 9, I was generally getting the feeling that no one wanted to speak, and that they just wanted to get the lynch over with. I figured that Kyiv speaking wouldn't spur it up for much longer, but I was wrong on that part. Whooops.

Oh, and I guess I did state the obvious there. I just wanted to get it out there, since I thought that some people automatically cleared Kyiv.

I have generally good vibes on Bob, but I'm a bit tired to do an iso now. I'll get back to you.

[boberz]

great.

I dont think that is good enough flare if I am honest, but heyho. What do you make of post 80 in particular I thought this was majorly important, any idea what i read into this.

[almightybob]

Responding to prod.

Sorry guys, been bizzay with stuff as I mentioned in my last post. Apologies to you all, catching up now.

[almightybob]

MS's 349 makes good sense to me. I can't argue with his logic for narrowing down the suspect pool, and the "If I am the cop" thing was a clever way to test for cops without necessarily having to out a cop who didn't have any useful information.

The rest of the Town should note, though, that 349 is from MS's perspective. Obviously he does not include himself in his own potential-scum list, but that does not mean everyone else should eliminate him. I'm going to go back and reread his D1 play to see if anything pops out regarding PD09.

MS's triple-posted case in 350/351/352 I like very much. This is what Town need to be doing when you lynch scum - go back and comb the previous interactions for clues. It can often be much easier to spot a scumbuddy when you reread the early stages of the game knowing one of them.


Kunk is trying to defend himself 353-372, and some of his arguments are good, but I have to say the meat of it is left undefended. Particularly the placement of his vote being perfect scum-timing, and him saying "I'm leaning Town on Medix" while still advocating his lynch.

One thing I'd have to say regarding Kunk's defence:

Point conceded. I think this is just going to be WIFOM, but with such blatant pointing it out:

And inb4 "now he just trying to distance himself away from his partner"

I really don't think that was what he was looking for. This statement implies that he did not want to be seen like he was distancing from his partner, so I doubt that he was trying to get town to believe that he was distancing himself from me.

Given PD's late-game attempt to sabotage things with fake-outing Kyiv, I don't think he would be above fake-preempting distancing to induce confusion here either. The fact remains, he put you on his scumlist for no reason, and then later fulfilled the

exact

behaviour MS mentioned he would in his case - he points to it and says "Look, I was suspicious of Kunk!".

------------------------

Enter boberz

Quick dealing with things boberz says aimed at me:

almighty bob, #140. severa'l show me several, in fact show me more than 2

This is dealt with at some point over the next few pages, I was mistaken here. I assume you realised this as you read on.

Bob in on gayle was bad, i sense gayle a touchy towny

I assume this means you think my dislike of Gayle's softclaim was bad. Why? Am I really the only one that thinks saying "My replacee is Town" is disingenuous?

ok bob doesnt get on that PD wagon, but asks others to check it out, actually towny so no shouting is necessary

Where do I ask other people to check out the PD wagon?

Bob I am now shouting at you that was awfull bussing 283 you are now top of my scum list at this point.

Not really bussing. As I say later, only one person can be the first to make each point in a case. Other people had already built the case on PD. It's fairly obvious that I read this case and agreed with it - I say as much in 283.

bob also mentions no lynch dont be silly, ludicrous man, your scum

Lolwut? The only times I mention no lynch, it's to point out how bad an idea it is, and how detrimental to Town it is. This is a ridiculous point to make against me. Read my posts about no-lynch again, particularly 299.

bob doesnt think he can win... even if i were a mafia kyiv i would give it a go, i thnk bob doesnt want a loss on record.

Hahaha, nice try. Read my wiki page for a comprehensive list of all my losses on record. Also note on that list Newbie 788 where my dead scumbuddy replacee outed me and ruined the game. This may go some way towards explaining why I was so angry at this - it's not the first time it's happened to me.

Almighty Bob, reading this game ii had no idea you were IC. I had a massive scum read on you in the second half of the game. on page 11 you went in on gayle in a bad way i think. As I read #283 I cringed i had predicted it earlier, i jst really thought you were scum here. Bob first to mention no lynch, but read a second time slightly towny, crumbing it in for patriots, he took the bait. fair play. I think bob has been brilliant scum, but read as i did concentrating and hard i think he can be found. Bob explain the giving up, and explain why you thought it was defo kyiv.

*checks* huh. I had no idea I was IC either. I replaced into a newbie slot. It's true that I do fulfil the IC requirements though, so maybe the mod just wrote me in as IC anyway.
I was not, in fact, the first to mention no lynch. The first time I mention it is 283. Look at the post immediately before that - the mod warns us that as it stands we will no lynch.

That

is why I talk about it. If anyone crumbed the NL idea for PD, it was the mod.
What are you trying to do, flatter me into confessing by calling me brilliant scum? It sounds quite like the Too Townie fallacy.
As I've said, this isn't the first game of mine where bitter scum has deliberately ruined the game for the other players. That game was abandoned, and so I assumed this one would be too. Looking back, it was mostly anger speaking.



Right, I'm going back to reread MS's interactions with PD on D1, just to make sure he's not sly scum pulling a fast one by taking charge (this is what smart scum would do D2 having lost their roleblocker - step up and start steering the Town, hoping people trust you for it).

[almightybob]

Right, I'm going back to reread MS's interactions with PD on D1, just to make sure he's not sly scum pulling a fast one by taking charge (this is what smart scum would do D2 having lost their roleblocker - step up and start steering the Town, hoping people trust you for it).

Done. MS was the first to vote PD, and was the driving force behind the whole wagon on him. I consider him cleared, and if he

is

scum, he's a heartless, cruel scumbuddy and I feel sorry for PD.

Following on from my previous post, Kunk is my top scumpick for today.

Vote: Kunkstar7

. That's L-1 folks.

[kunkstar7]

Given PD's late-game attempt to sabotage things with fake-outing Kyiv, I don't think he would be above fake-preempting distancing to induce confusion here either. The fact remains, he put you on his scumlist for no reason, and then later fulfilled the exact behaviour MS mentioned he would in his case - he points to it and says "Look, I was suspicious of Kunk!".

No he does not use it in the way MS mentioned. That situation only carries through if I am lynched and turn up scum, and PD09 had been alive to be there for it. That technique refers to him "clearing" himself as town because he was suspicious of scum. Going along with this and seeing that I'm at L-1, my role is Vanilla Townie. Due to this, he can't have been using it for this reason.

[MichelSableheart]

Apologies for the lack of content. Had a busy weekend, and don't have time to post properly. Expect better from me tomorrow.

Welcome to the game, boberz. Good to see that you dove right in.

[boberz]

almighty bob,

i knew you were wrong, i realised you caught on.

i didnt read it as a claim, more a statement. but it was your reaction to it that intrigued me, hammering it home. It is like people that bang on about people claiming roles on day 1, they say it so much that it gives scum a read on what people are, but if it is mentioned in passing then it goes away with minimum damage.

#279

no you said you found nothing on PD after rereading, two posts later you are suddenly convinvced. I didnt like it i suppose proximity to deadline is a factor i didnt consider much but even so.

How do your previous losses detract from your will not to lose this one. But you did explain your anger. But only anger at someone trying that play, not proof you are not scum.


Why mention no-lynch was someone advocating a no-lynch. I do not suggest you supported nolynch but mentioning it is bad, unless it is like 36 hours to go or something. Buti read again and suggested that it made you less scummy, and the point you make about the mod means i am happy to remove that from my case.

No if i thought you were too towny you wouldnt be one of my two big scum reads. I think you played well, ie noone is suspecting you. I tend towards you being scum, so you only lose (if you lose as scum) because of replacements which is unlucky.

So it wasnt definately kyiv??? sorry i still dont accept this.

Basically tour post, other than explainning the no-lynch does nothing for me. It explains your feelings but doesnt reduce the scumminess of the actions.

[boberz]

vote almighty bob

[almightybob]

No he does not use it in the way MS mentioned. That situation only carries through if I am lynched and turn up scum, and PD09 had been alive to be there for it. That technique refers to him "clearing" himself as town because he was suspicious of scum. Going along with this and seeing that I'm at L-1, my role is Vanilla Townie. Due to this, he can't have been using it for this reason.

Meh, six and half a dozen.
MS's scenario was that, when challenged on D2 to produce evidence of suspicion, PD would say "look I called Kunk 3rd scummiest".
The actual scenario was that, when challenged on D1 to produce evidence of any acknowledgement, PD said "look I called Kunk 3rd scummiest".

Same difference.

----------

boberz, please lay out your posts more clearly. The way that one's laid out, I'm having to guess which part refers to what. I'm just going to assume that each paragraph is a response to the paragraphs from my post 389.

Anyway, rebuttals:

i didnt read it as a claim, more a statement.

EXACTLY. He stated that his role was Town, but phrased it so it didn't look like a claim. That's what a softclaim

is

. I don't like the underhand approach. It's like he's subtly trying to push this as an accepted position. Especially by talking about his replacee, it makes him seem detached from the statement, so it seems more like an analysis of another player when he's really talking about himself.

Anyway, I was clearly the only one who thought there was something odd about that, and it proved to be true anyway. I don't see much value in going through this again, it basically boils down to Mafia Theory and your opinion of softclaims.

#279

Read 279 again. I'm not asking other people to check out the wagon, I'm asking if there's a summary of the case against PD. Read Gayle's response to it, where he directs me to his previous post. Hopefully that will make it clear what I was saying - I'm asking for information for myself, not telling any other player what to do.

no you said you found nothing on PD after rereading, two posts later you are suddenly convinvced. I didnt like it i suppose proximity to deadline is a factor i didnt consider much but even so.

I didn't say I found nothing, I said I didn't see anything hugely scummy. He didn't seem particularly Town either. From that reread, he seemed fairly neutral.
Then when I read through Gayle's points, I went back and looked at the instances he was talking about, in context this time. That, combined with the impending deadline and the fact we would no-lynch if someone didn't change their vote, gave me enough justification to vote for PD.

How do your previous losses detract from your will not to lose this one. But you did explain your anger. But only anger at someone trying that play, not proof you are not scum.

You said I wanted to avoid having a loss on record. I showed you my record. Clearly I do not have a problem with recording my losses as well as my defeats. So this point is invalid.
And the only

proof

I'm not scum will be when I die and flip, or when a cop investigates me. Even the latter could be lying scum. This game is not really about proof.

mentioning it is bad

This is silly. To even

mention

a no-lynch is bad? That's ridiculous. It's only bad to advocate a no-lynch, which I emphatically did not do. And in any event, I only talk about no-lynch

after

the mod has already mentioned it. I'm glad you've realised that this is a non-point.

I tend towards you being scum, so you only lose (if you lose as scum) because of replacements which is unlucky.

Eh? How would scum-me lose because of replacements?
And it does sound like the Too Townie fallacy. Too Townie = "He seems so Town, he must be scum". Your fallacy = "Nobody seems to suspect him, he must be scum".

So it wasnt definately kyiv??? sorry i still dont accept this.

Seriously, you really need to be more clear with what you're referring to.
Do I now think the other scum is definitely Kyiv? No.
Did I at the time think the other scum was definitely Kyiv? Yes, because of the parallels this situation had with my other game.




Basically your points boil down to:

1) Fairly irrelevant Mafia Theory argument
2) Incorrectly reading my post 279
3) Disliking my "sudden convincing"
4) Incorrect (and irrelevant) speculation about my win/loss record-keeping
5) Incorrectly reading the no-lynch talk
6) WIFOMy speculation about nobody suspecting me
7) Some point about Kyiv that I don't get, presumably relating to my anger (which you already said I'd explained) at the end of D1


It's a very weak case, and a very weak vote.

[boberz]

almighty bob, I will make my posts clearer, if you will stop quoting every word I say, deal? i want a conversation, not an echo.

With respectto the softclaim. I am arguing that i wasnt a softclaim at all, and for a softclaim to be scummy it has to be done deliberately. It is well worth going over ols stuff if new people join the game they may think some things more important.

I do not misunderstand what i read in #279 at all, my point stands. I did read it for a third time in a day and a half I am happy with how i read it. It was asking for info, but that wasnt th eonly function.

I think if you found PD nuetral, you would not have phrased it 'not finding him scummy' if you would it is a very strange way of putting it. The deadline argument is the only one i accept in that list, so no change there.

No, you may still not want to have the loss made official. However many losses you have had this is still true. The point I was making about the anger was the fact you were angry does not detract from any of the points i made. but i will use evidence to suggest that instead of the word proof if you want.

With respect to the replacements I meant, it looked like nobody had their eyes on you so if you lost it would be down to me, i didnt say it llike that because it looks pompous. And on the too townie fallacy, you are wrong. I am not saying 'people think your town therefore your scum', i am saying 'people think your town, i think your scum, everyone go and reread him, here is why he looks like scum' very different things.

I just dont like the look of your reaction to kyiv, as i explained i do not think your anger reduces this point, explains yes reduces no.

Basically My points boil down to this:

1) You tried to make everyone think a simple error was a softclaim when it definately wasnt, then cut and run cheaply.

2) You moved the goalposts on #279 i actually orignally said it was slightly towny, but in context of #283 which was bussing (bear in mind i predicted it, this wasnt just out of the blue) it now looks worse.

3)Strongly disliking your sudden convincing after a reread where he 'was not scummy'

4) Not incorrect necessarily at all, having previous losses by no means guarentees you dont want to avoid future ones.

5) I have twice removed the no lynch from my case, i sense a misrep here. Making my case look worse than it is.

6) No such specualtion, i merely advise the other towny players to have a look at this scummy player i saw when reading from start to finish, with his predecessor not brilliant.

7) You were 100% sure it was kyiv, realised nobody was biting, then happy to let it not be kyiv. It ruined the game and made it more interesting. Your kyiv thing is inconsistent. I accept you were angry but you were bad, again not a strong point but some of the others are.

---

I sense that our bickering is suiting flare, read up yet, or still refusing to?

Can you atleast tell me what you make of almighty bob?

Who are you really suspicious of?

What do people make of me, an agressive start you must admitt???

[almightybob]

I'm quoting things you say so that it's clear to everyone which parts of your post I'm responding to at any one time. It's a helpful way to reply to a post. I won't do it for this one, and hopefully you'll realise that it's much harder to follow what I'm referring to if I don't include any references.
Also, I wasn't just referring to formatting. Just double-checking your spelling and grammar would help a lot. It's not a big deal, it just interrupts the flow and sometimes makes it hard to figure out what you're referring to.

If you think a softclaim isn't scummy, fine. I do. It's a difference of opinion in a Mafia Theory discussion, and is best kept to the relevant forum. Although I'm surprised to see you say "it has to be done deliberately". Are you saying Gayle accidentally typed "Medix is Town"?

Yes. Yes, you do. You claimed in 378 that I was asking other people to examine the PD wagon. All I do is ask "is there a summary of the case anywhere". This is me looking for a summary. At no point in this post do I ask other people to examine the PD wagon. If you think I do ask others, you can't read. If you don't think I ask others, you're lying about it just now.

But that's

not

how I phrased it. I said "I'm not seeing anything hugely scummy from that iso" and "he doesn't seem particularly scummy". Those were my exact words. That is very, very different from what you're claiming I said. I'm basically saying that, from this iso, I don't see why other people think he is so very scummy. On rereading in context with Gayle's case at hand, I saw what they were getting at.

You're right, that does sound pompous. Incidentally, how is what you're doing here different from "encouraging people to look at the wagon" that you accused me of earlier?

This is a very poor point. To suggest that I would rather write this game off than record a loss,

when I have shown I

voluntarily

record

all

my losses as well as defeats

, is absurd. You're right, I don't want to lose this game. But I would rather lose than have it abandoned, no question.

Well if you "just don't like the look of it", that's a gut reaction. I can't defend myself against your feelings. But gut is not something you should expect to convince anyone other than yourself, and so far the only half-decent reasons you've given to justify your vote on me are gut reasons. That makes it a weak case, and I highly doubt it'll convince anyone else.

1) I find it hard to see how typing "Medix is Town" and then blacking it out could possibly be 'a simple error'.
2) How can you

possibly

predict anything when you replace in

after

the events in question have occured?
3) This is your only semi-tenable point, and it's a gut read
4) Ridiculous point
5) Don't include bullshit misrepresentations to make your case seem stronger than it is, and I won't call you on it
6) Another weak point
7) In the heat of the moment, I was sure PD had ruined the game, because it's happened to me before. After a few days I calmed down, and realised that the game was not neccessarily ruined, and that Kyiv was not neccessarily scum. And no, none of your other points are strong.


Why are you trying to put words into flare's mouth by saying "an agressive start you must admit"? Why ask the question if you pre-empt the answer?
Also, is it easier to understand without the echo, or shall I go back to quoting the parts I'm replying to?

@Rest of Town: I would like to hear your evaluation of the strength of boberz's case on me please.

[boberz]

Firstly I found that much easier to read, and posts like that make the game flow better in my opinion. I nearly replaced out of the game straight away when I was reading through it was horrible to follow. But I will check spelling and grammer that is fair enough.

READ THIS CAREFULLY, I DID NOT THINK GAYLE SOFT CLAIMED!!!! I think he made an error it making it look like he softclaimed a touch, I dont think he meant to say his or medix's role, he was just trying to say towny. or something similiar. Softclaiming can be scummy definately. Also disagreeing on theory does not mean my first point is invalid.

I am not reading it again, if it appears that I need to I will. I am happy with how I read it three times. In context and in iso. I do not accept the premise I am misunderstanding you.

Sorry that was a misquote, but saying "not finding anything hugely scummy" is still a backward way of saying he is neutral. And in the context of your quick switch I think it needs looking at.

Your making people look at the wagon, wasnt scummy. It was the very sudden change after and the seeming to find a way out of voting for you partner. At least that is how I read it. I am also encouraging a look at a person who is not currently a lynch target I am having my views cemented down here, you did not. Several differences.

So other than the anger why were you so eager to stop the game with the PD/Kyiv fiasco?

I think it is fair to say I do not just have gut reasons to vote for you, I have quite a lot of reasons for somebody who replaced in and had to read from scratch.

---

1) we may have to agree to disagree on this medix thing, the discussion isnt moving forward.

2) I wrote the notes in chronological order I predicted your reaction from posts before. I referenced it in my notes somewhere.

3) Not purely a gut read, because your quick convincing is there for all to see, but if i read it differently from all others I will have to accept that.

4) Weaker than the previous three points, but a point all the same. I cannot comprehend why you messeged to get the game to stop.

5) Tis you who misrepped me on this point. If I build up a case, then realise one part is wrong after you refute it, I should be able to remove it from my case, as I did. You cannot ask me to drop the charges then moan when I do.

6) Not actually part of the case against you, just some advice for the other players.

7) Do you believe your initial anger completely negates the original point I made?

---

Those questions can go to everyone btw.

I was more giving him something to rif off. I want him to say more than a sentence or two, so giving him a starting point is usefull. It may be wrong though, I am not sure really.

I hate the echo as I said, and I wont be posting it either, it is horrible. Nearly as bad as random voting.

Yes town talk to us. Any new points to bring to the table?

[MichelSableheart]

Oops, just threw away an hour of work. Guess I'll have to start this post again.

Good analysis boberz. There is just one thing I don't understand in your final conclusion. Why are you calling flareon scum, when almost all of your posts show suspicion of almightybob, and you later vote him?

I understand where your suspicion of almightybob is coming from. Before I reread the game for post #349, he was my top suspect. However, Patriots really launched an attack against him as the only alternative to his lynch. If you want to have any chance of convincing me to vote almightybob, you need to give me a very good explanation why Patriots would do that to his scumpartner.

About quoting: the reasons I use many quotes, is because they make it more clear what exactly I'm replying to. I'm having some trouble reading posts #381 and #393, because I'm finding it difficult to determine what part of the posts you are exactly responding to. Besides that, I continually have to scroll back to their posts to compare what they're saying to your remarks.

---
@Almightybob: you requested an analysis of boberz case on you. I'm going to summarize the case to four points (ignoring the "almighty crumbed no lynch to patriots", because that is no longer part of his case).

1. You overreacted to Gayle's "medix is town" comment: I understand why you believed that Gayle softclaimed vanilla townie. What you should realize, though, is that a lot of players use town, or even townie, as synonymous with "pro-town". I personally believe that Gayle's comment was a joke which he could have made as a powerrole or scum too. This is also how Gayle explained it. You probably should have dropped the topic earlier. However, I don't think you as scum would gain an advantage from that behaviour, so it's not a scumtell for me.
   
   
2. Your behaviour towards Patriots was suspicious and likely bussing: Before I reread for post #349, you were my top suspect, for exactly this. Originally, you were questioning my attack on Patriots. Then in post #269, you suddenly mentioned that good points had been raised, without actually explaining what they were. You seemed to go back to not understanding the wagon in #279, to go to voting him in #283. This behaviour felt strange and not genuine. It could indeed have easily been setting up a bus. The explanations you have given recently are acceptable to me though.
   
   
3. You wanted the game to be abandoned to prevent a loss: I have to agree with boberz that you were very quick to state that the game would be abandoned. Allthough this is likely a result of previous experiences, I can't rule out the possibility that you actually wanted the game to be abandoned because with the roleblocker lynched, you felt it had become very difficult for you to win.
   
   
4. You wanted to get a quick mislynch on Kyiv on day 2: You definately were quick to vote Kyiv at the beginning of day 2, and you definately were quick to unvote when I argued against it. You completely dropped the topic after that, even though you showed reluctance when you unvoted. This can indeed be the result of attempting to get an "easy" mislynch, then dropping it when it turned out that there were others strongly opposed to that lynch. However, I think the explanation that you felt Kyiv was obviously scum, then other players convinced you otherwise, is more believable.

Overall, I definately understand where boberz suspicion is coming from. On the other hand, you have given believable pro-town explanations for your behaviour. Because of Patriots attack on you, I believe you're town.