Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[Netopalis]

Vote: Toro! Toro! Toro!

Also: V/LA tomorrow. Sorry, folks.

[Netopalis]

Well, I've been away. Now that I'm back.....

I don't really like saber's attack on Hewitt. There is supposedly no "random vote stage", and the idea that everybody must vote for a random player negates the intent. It is laughable to seriously suspect someone for that reason.

I also don't like Darklight's play in this game, but I know from a previous game with him that he acts extremely, extremely scummily as town.

I'm getting an initial town read from Kikuchiyo for pushing the game forward and mediating a lot of the little petty disputes.

[Netopalis]

I just looked at the other game that Yarmond is in and he hasn't posted there either. I would recommend prod/replacement, since it's unlikely that he will show up.

[Netopalis]

ABR, I'm basing this on one game - my first newbie game on the site. Here's the link:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12274

I haven't played any other games with him, so he may be a bit better in others...but in that one, he played so scummily that we were able to lynch him even after he claimed doc...

[Netopalis]

Why?

[Netopalis]

Mod, please prod Yarmond. It has been 5 days.

[Netopalis]

Why?

I think saber is scummier at the moment.

Why?

Why?

I think saber is scummier at the moment.

This is enough for now to confirm Konowa as town for me.

Why?

[Netopalis]

No, I'm afraid not. I haven't researched his meta otherwise, all I know is that as town he tends to make logical leaps which aren't necessarily warranted.

Saber: That seems rather...manufactured. Wouldn't it make sense, then, for him to also do this when he's scum? It's very easy to fake. Regardless, voting without reason is, in my opinion, an anti-town action, if not scummy. I'd rather not go down this road with an argument again, though, as the anger arising from these arguments has gotten me lynched on 2 separate occasions.

[Netopalis]

Seriously if I'm scum and I know someone knows my play style I would so use that to my advantage.

QFT. Fixed grammar, but QFT.

[Netopalis]

ABR: I would assume so. My point is that illogical leaps alone should not be considered indicative of scumminess on his part.

[Netopalis]

I was talking about DLA. However...

Why?

I think saber is scummier at the moment.

Why?

[Netopalis]

But if you're voting him for lack of voting earlier, why didn't you do it in the post that explained your suspicion due to lack of voting rather than waiting for Kikuchiyo to step in and corroborate your suspicion?

[Netopalis]

Mod: Prod on Toro to go with the prod on Yarmond?

DLA...ugh. I know that last time we lynched him for play like this and he was the doc, but his play is just so...terrible...ugh.


The relationship among Kikuchiyo/Shotty/Saber/Konowa seems to be very interesting. If any of them are scum, we'll need to reexamine these posts very closely.

[Netopalis]

The mod hasn't posted for 5 days...What's standard procedure for that?

[Netopalis]

Oh, you're here. Mind responding to the allegations against you?

[Netopalis]

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.

Essentlally, I find that the whole "lynch me if you want" mentality is used by scum primarily. Due to the fact that scum's goal is survival, it is a way for them to appear town by making it look like they're playing against their goal - or for the town one. Overall, I really don't like his posts - even given that I played with him before and I posted the stuff about his meta.

[Netopalis]

To encourage him to put up better posts.

[Netopalis]

Sure, I find it understandable that people are suspicious. I find farside suspicious. That's just life.

Can you do a bit better than this? Saying "Yeah, I'd find me scummy too" doesn't help us any....

[Netopalis]

Any updates on Toro or Yarmond?

[Netopalis]

Well, that's a real positive attitude, Hewitt. Way to be a winner.

*mumbles*

[Netopalis]

Wow....Sorry, folks, I've been insanely busy as of late. Cases to come later tonight. Suffice it to say thta I really am not liking Ellibereth right now for her posts which just barely avoid replacement. I also don't like her putting Hewitt at L-1 without clearly stating a reason.

[Netopalis]

Wow....Just wow. Bitter much, Hewitt?

I have to throw in analysis of two players here...I think that their acts are extremely important.

First, Hewitt. Hewitt's overly aggressive defense is more than a bit troublesome, as are his bitter tirades towards the latter half of the game as it stands. I would not have suspected him had we not gotten into all of this with him.

That being said, I also have to post a few things about ABR....I really don't like ABR's statement asking people to pick whether they would lynch him or Hewitt. To me, that seems like scum that has found an easy target, but is too lazy to substantiate a claim. I know that ABR is an extremely lazy player (Love ya, but you are...) so this may just be his modus operandi, but I think that there may be something behind it.

First stop for the lynch wagon is, of course, Hewitt. ABR, I know it's kind of pointless now, but can you please explain why you originally suspected him? This is more so that I can analyze your play than it is so that I can analyze his.

Withholding a vote until questions are answered. Once I'm satisfied, I'll be happy to drop the hammer.

[Netopalis]

Take your time - we're in no rush here. We have a little more than 4 days before the deadline, and I'm holding my vote until a hammer is needed.

Oh, and incidentally, Mod, I know that this is a busy time for all of us, but a bit more activity would be nice. Asking a player to do a votecount is weaksauce.

[Netopalis]

Oh, I should probably point out for everyone, this game doesn't follow the normal no-lynch-at-deadline rule - it uses the half-votes system, meaning that if any one player has 3 or more votes at deadline, that player would be lynched except in LYLO.

[Netopalis]

Speaking of such, Lab, can we get an extension? That'd be fantastic. Amazing. Splendiferous. Positively smashing.

[Netopalis]

DLA...Ugh. What a mass of incomprehensibility. Please, in a few sentences, restate what you were trying to say in English and not in Swahili, Greek, Japanese, Latin, Martian or whatever that last post was in.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

Last few posts show a disconnect with the game, a borderline criminal lack of knowledge and a lack of original thought.

[Netopalis]

Alright...Sorry, I've been away for the last 6 hours. ABR, you still haven't posted your case on Hewitt, or if you did, I missed it. Would you mind obliging my morbid curiosity?

Honestly, I'm starting to strongly suspect ABR. Over the last few pages, it seems that he's been attempting to build up a "cult of personality", if you will. I fear that he's mafia trying to build up a coalition of the weaker players to follow his lead while the mafia kills off the strong players not aligned with him. This would be consistent with his earlier statement that he needs to get rid of one of the most active players today - a statement which is incredibly abhorrent to anyone who knows how to play D1 mafia. Lynching an active player should NOT be your default on D1. Since D1 lynches are traditionally worse than random, it would seem to me that the best course of action is to lynch a player that will be the least useful on D2, but will still provide reads on players. To me, DLA and Hewitt satisfy this bill.

I also don't like ABR's recent mentality of "Here's who I suspect. Please, tell me why I suspect them. Build a case." To me, that is scum trying to get town players to closely scrutinize other pro-town players and extract even the lightest scumreads, then get all excited when he gives them a cookie and pats them on the head.


As for my not arguing strongly on DLA, that's honestly been because I have prior experience with him and I don't feel that my reads are that accurate for that reason. I'm going to be a lot more likely to find failtown than I will be to find scum within his posts because I framed him in the newbie game that we played. Therefore, I prefer to let those who are more neutral in regards to him lead the way. I'm happy to lynch him, of course - I just don't feel qualified to add a lot to this discussion.

Hewitt...is going to merit a reread in isolation.

[Netopalis]

Personally, I think that CSL's play makes him an excellent policy lynch in practically any game...but I know that this is going to be an extreme minority position in this game. The problem though, is this: If he is scum, we'd never know because he plays equally as bad whether he's scum or not. If we were getting close to a deadline, though, I'd definitely go for him.

Same thing for DLA, actually, now that I think about it.

[Netopalis]

I mean, yeah, they both suck...but CSL just sucks because he fails to follow logic where with DLA, you have to spend 15 minutes decoding what he just said....


<rant>
Honestly, I was really disappointed when I saw CSL had replaced in. I'm beginning to wonder if this game is sporting a giant sign advertising "Wanted: Everyone that I loathe playing with: Inquire within!" Not that you ALL suck, but there are certain people here that I, uh, would have preferred not to play with again.
</rant>

[Netopalis]

I feel so loved <3

Thanks. My attempts to contain my House-esque persona have recently been falling a bit flatter than they usually due, probably probably partially from exam pressure.

[Netopalis]

You forgot "Doesn't rely on players to do his job".

[Netopalis]

ABR: Still waiting on your analysis of Hewitt. Please don't make me ask again.

[Netopalis]

Huzzah! This game just improved exponentially!

We have a new mod! Definitely a plus!
KittyMo is replacing in! Always an improvement!
CSL is self voting! That may be the best vote he's ever cast!



Now mayhaps we can get this game on the road.

[Netopalis]

Woot! Even more awesome!

...Can...can I hug you, Dramonic? Just...just a little one? Please? This may just be the high point of my last 25 minutes - nay - even my last 2 hours!

[Netopalis]

I said I wasn't going to ask ABR again for his reasoning, so I guess I'm left with little other choice.

Unvote, vote: ABR

He's not the best play today (That's DLA), but I want to use this vote to send a message that, well, I'd really like an answer to that question and to preserve my earlier reasoning about his possible scummishness.

[Netopalis]

Oh, it wasn't buying, it was appreciation. It's OK. I'd probably catch bird flu or somesuch nasty disease. But regardless...

Now I'm turning my vote into something a bit more serious. ABR has been all over the chart today in regards to hewitt. Originally, he attacks him for no real reason. Now, he's buddying up to him like they've been best friends since time immemorial. I really think that this deserves a bit of explanation. Still maintain that he's not the play today...but perhaps tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

Aw, shit SC. You replaced the wrong dude!

Yo, if you haven't given him his role PM yet, give him Konowa's! Jesus..lol keeping my vote on CSL/SC.

????

How do you know whether Yarmond or CSL would be better for him to replace?

[Netopalis]

Yeah, that one.

Also: I really don't think it's fair to attribute the actions of the replaced players to their replacements given that the former players were, uh, not quite all there. They could be scum or town and we'd never know because they play just as poorly regardless of what faction they're on.

[Netopalis]

Please. I've been in a game in which CSL DID, in an umprompted manner, claim scum. In this game, he did not all but claim scum. He showed his normal characteristic lack of understanding of gameplay, his normal weak arguments and his normal incomprehensibility. That may have still been a valid reason for his lynch, but since we now have SC, it is no longer an avenue to pursue.

[Netopalis]

Oh, hi. Forgot you were playing. You seem to be doing an excellent job of going unnoticed.

[Netopalis]

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

[Netopalis]

I have no case on ABR, but his feeling of invincibility has me uneasy. However, I have reason to believe that he is town. I'm just vote hopping, trying to find something that I can finally lock down and go, this is why he deserves my vote.

Who haven't I voted for yet?

unvote; vote: Farside22

Your turn. I shall look at your posts and see if this is valid or not, most likely not. I should try to at least reinforce why you come off as town to me.

What the heck? I vote ABR to make a point, you hop on and vote him as well. I unvote him because I didn't want too many votes on him, then all of a sudden you feel a loss of conviction and unvote as well?

Vote: Saberwolf

[Netopalis]

I think that it's more interesting that the only arguments that she has advanced are those advanced by other players. I also think that it's interesting that she has completely missed the replacements we've gotten in.

[Netopalis]

Acknowledge that CSL is no longer playing, for one thing.

Also, explain how a 3rd-person pronoun which is uncapitalized is supposed to be a complete sentence. Seriously. You can't just make words into sentences by adding periods to the end of them.

[Netopalis]

unvote; vote: SC

I must say I liked this one best from the beginning, and here my vote will stay for the rest of the day.

What are you doing? Can you not read our posts? Are you fully and completely oblivious to the arguments against you? Good grief, man, your actions today are approaching as-of-yet unseen levels of absurdity!

WHY ARE YOU SWITCHING YOUR VOTE SO OFTEN AND WITHOUT EXPLANATION, SABERWOLF?

[Netopalis]

Uh, yeah. Let's just lynch Saberwolf. It's clear to me, at least, that he's going to be a huge liability in this game. He really isn't explaining his actions, he's trying to draw other people into his scumminess by associating them with himself (A bizarre strategy if I've ever seen one) and he's generally contributed nothing pro-town and plenty anti-town.

Also, thank you, Captain Obvious, AKA DLA. I am stunned by your continued ability to point out the facts as they stand boldly before us, available to anyone who would want to examine them. Clearly, you deserve a medal of some kind. Perhaps a giant hubcap-shaped one that bears the word "MEDAL" in huge letters across the front and plays a looping sound file of that guy from 300 saying "THIS IS A MEDAL!", just so the su

b

tlety won't be lost on anyone. It'll be even more subtle than the B in subtle that I bolded.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and Elibereth...Would you mind grabbing the list of players and giving us your read on each, along with a bit of explanation, please? A bit of explanation will hereafter be defined as 2-3 logical and well-thought out sentences which support the conclusion or action that it follows or precedes. Thanks in advance.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, sorry...

ABR: I've asked you multiple times to substantiate your claims and you've refused to. What makes you 80% sure that I'm scum?

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Multiple ways to read that, none of which should make you 80% sure that I'm scum.

[Netopalis]

But if CSL is scum, doesn't that mean you should be voting for SC rather than me? Not saying that it does, just wondering.

[Netopalis]

I think you're scum too.

Yes, that would indeed be what I was getting at. Why do you think that?

[Netopalis]

Meh, I'm still keeping my vote on Saber. He's exhibited every scumtell in the book, far beyond the bounds of bad play. I played in a game recently with him, and while he was pretty bad...he wasn't THIS bad. I think we can distinguish the two games and say that he looks scummy anyway, but in games in which he actually is scum, he looks EXTREMELY scummy.

As for going for the easy targets....Meh. The problem is that in this game, at least 1/2 of the players are excellent lynch targets.

Examples of easy lynch targets:
Ellibereth
Saber
CSL (Until replacement)
Shotty to the Body
DLA
Hewitt (For a time, everybody was all over him)

That is, quite literally, half. Therefore, I apologize if I suspected the wrong half of players, but I prefer to go after players that, if we do mislynch, won't hurt the town too badly. ABR's policy of going after the best players on D1 leads to the logical conclusion of a terrible, terrible endgame in which the worst players compete to see who looks the scummiest.

[Netopalis]

Because his play is about 10 times worse on this game than it was on the other one. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was bad...but it was palatable. Now, it's just bizarre.

[Netopalis]

I guess I should clarify that a bit more - DLA's play was consistent with his bad play in my previous game with him. Saber's play last time was significantly worse...

Although, actually, now that I think about it, Saber WAS scum in that game. Ugh. No. I'm not going to allow him to win on his theory that he looks less like scum when he's scum. That's just silly.

[Netopalis]

Look, Albert, I think I've said this in every game that we've been in together, but I really have to take issue with your methods. You go around claiming that X is scum, almost never backing it up. You've backed up some of your claims in this game, but you've ignored most of my repeated requests and delayed those that you have answered. It's as if you expect your reputation to precede you and that we should all immediately bow down to whatever it is that you have to say. As nice as this would be for you, the problem is this: You could very well be scum just as easily, and those methods lend themselves awfully, awfully well to scum play. You may have a really good record, but I'm not going to follow any of your suggestions without at least a little bit more proof. What I am going to do, however, is this:

Unvote, Vote: Albert B. Rampage

I unvoted earlier because I wasn't serious about the lynch. I am now. Albert will be extremely, extremely dangerous to the town if he continues to play as he is doing right now. People follow him largely without question - even if it means jumping off cliffs like so many lemmings. The way that he stays on people *just* long enough to establish him going after them later is rather bothersome to me - it seems almost as if he is trying to determine who he wants rid of and set the stage for their lynch in the future. Until he remedies this behavior, I will have him on my scum list and am adding him to the growing number of people that I would be willing to lynch today.

[Netopalis]

Good for you. Now, provide some original analysis of the game.

[Netopalis]

I've given plenty of reasoning. You're using your power and influence to set people up for lynches on questionable logic. To me, this is the hallmark of scum - since scum cannot rely on attacking those people who lie, they have to try to attack those who are telling the truth but make it look as if they are lying. The simplest way to accomplish this is through the creation of a culture of scumminess - through simply saying enough times that someone is scummy. This is what you are doing.

[Netopalis]

Comment.

Also, ABR, taking to quoting me? I'll take it as a compliment, I suppose, although I find its use ironic.

[Netopalis]

If you automatically agree with whatever everybody else says, why are you even bothering to play mafia? You really, really need to branch out and form your own opinions. I'd recommend a newbie game before this...but what's done is done.

[Netopalis]

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Honestly? Seriously? Really? Are you and Elibereth in some sort of a "Who cares the least?" competition?

[Netopalis]

I'd agree, but it would be too ironic.

[Netopalis]

SC: How can you guarantee with 95% certainty that ABR is not scum? To me, his latest actions of failing to vote without providing clear logic are classic scum tactics.

[Netopalis]

That makes a bit more sense. I respectfully disagree, but I can see your points.

[Netopalis]

It did persuade me somewhat that ABR's play may be the result of his pro-town style...although, that being said, I've played in two games with him - one with him as scum and one with him as town. He was actually more sullen and less useful in the one in which he was town. I do know of his reputation in the manner that you discuss, though.

Your defense of ABR does not necessarily paint you as scum if ABR flips scum - it only does so if your defense is for weak reasons. I've often inadvertently defended scum players as town before, as I am sure that everyone else has. The trick is to see whether the defense is irrational or not, in my opinion.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also, SC - Nero? I don't even know HOW to play the fiddle!

[Netopalis]

Interesting choice of words, I have to say.....

[Netopalis]

Whoa, wait a minute...Albert, you were earlier gushing about how good SC's play is. Don't you think if he's such a great player, he'd avoid making such a newbie mistake? Personally, to me, it looks like he's just said that because you accused him of bussing... I know he can't *actually* be bussing because I'm not scum! Seems to me more like you're playing the whole "Jump on every little slip of the tongue and see who we can string up" game.

[Netopalis]

Way to be original, Elibereth.

Saber, Elibereth, let's try a little test.




These shoes are ridiculous. They contain a CD player.

I love these shoes.

I hate these shoes.

These shoes are absolutely normal. They contain insoles.

I'm ambivalent about these shoes.

I don't understand why you're asking me about shoes.


___________________

Saber, Ellibereth, now that I've given my opinion on the shoes, I want you to give your opinion on the shoes.

[Netopalis]

Alright. Thanks for your input, Elibereth. You've been extremely, extremely helpful.

*scribbles*

Tell me, Elibereth, why do you think that I'm asking you about shoes?

Once we hear from Saber, I will release the wealth of information that this just gave me in regards to your play.

[Netopalis]

You sound like a broken record, Net. Save it for the post-game, will ya?

Oh, and incidentally, since you can claim meta, I will too. Remember Hellsing Mafia? D1, completely useless, D2, pretty awesome. Also, see my 15 page rant in which I post roughly 45 times asking for people to substantiate their case against DB. Sure, I can sound like a broken record at times...but I was right.

[Netopalis]

Alright. I have now gotten enough information.

Elibereth will agree with the last statement that she is given. I asked her a question with no correct answer, she chose the last statement that was provided to her. This leads me to believe that she is most likely a clone or an automaton of some sort.

Saber chose an option that appealed to him. Therefore, either his choice was random or it was based on some personal preference. Therefore, he does not automatically agree with the last statement provided to him and there is no real excuse for his play.

[Netopalis]

Elibereth: You're a girl until you earn the right to have a username that confuses your physical gender with your preferred presented gender.

Saber: My test was fairly simple: You both exhibited a pattern of agreeing with the last thing that was said. Elibereth did. You didn't. That means that this sort of automatic regurgitation is no excuse for your actions - there is, apparently, at least some independent thought in there. Now, here's a trowel, a bag of potting soil and a watering can. Plant that seed of independent thought, nurture it, then eventually it will grow into something glorious.

[Netopalis]

...and you're claiming that against me? Weird. 'Cause I thought that it was you that was pulling random suspicions out of thin air this entire game and expecting us to follow them. The only reason that I sound like a broken record here is because you keep intentionally neglecting to fulfill my requests for information.

[Netopalis]

Whatever you say.
Doesn't change that you're scum.

What a persuasive argument! Unfortunately, arguments of this nature have a perfect defense.

"No, I'm not."


Your turn! Now you get to make a claim! Try anything! Give some reasoning behind your statement. Philosophers agree that an argument is a connected series of statements designed to prove a given point - try using that!

[Netopalis]

Well, Albert has successfully ignored most direct questions this game so far despite attempts to the contrary.

Yeah, this has kinda been my point. Does nobody else find this action scummy? Is it not also scummy that he keeps attacking those who ask him direct questions? It's almost like he doesn't want to answer them because he has something to hide....

[Netopalis]

Funny. He doesn't seem to have been prepared to answer questions for the last 15-odd pages that I've been haranguing him for them.

[Netopalis]

Elibereth: 669 contains no questions for me. It contains analysis of my posts. Responding in turn to each post number:

8: Fail to see why it's scummy. Yes, I think meta is overrated, but I was just pointing out that he also played poorly in those games, so that alone should not be taken as an indicator of his scumminess.

15: It works rather simply: It sends a message to him saying that his playstyle sucks and it needs to be greatly improved.

21: Meh, it could go either way, but I still have heard nobody really substantiate that case against Hewitt.

27: This refers to a statistical thing that someone posted on here...The gist of it was that the probability of the town successfully lynching on D1 through non-ranodm means is actually lower than the chances of the town successfully lynching through random means. This does not, however, imply that plays need to be random, it's just an interesting point.

28: I'm a very cautious player. I don't like throwing votes around indiscriminately. Once again, this Does Not Make Me Scum (tm)

35: It was. I had asked him 6 times, if I recall, before that to substantiate his claim against Hewitt. He said that he would, but never got around to it and ignored my requests. What was I supposed to do to back up those requests? There's not much I can do aside from casting a vote. Plus, I think that refusal to answer questions or substantiate claims is scummy - at the very least, it's anti-town.

36: Not lining up lynches. Lining up lynches is saying "We will lynch X today, Y tomorrow and Z the day after that". I said "We may want to consider lynching DLA tomorrow, but he's probably not the best play for today.

38: Because CSL is an idiot. He will play that way regardless of his alignment. Therefore, it should not be used in an attempt to prove SC's alignment.

41: He hadn't been doing it as much until that vote. That was in response to his third vote-hop after someone else voted. If you look at the post in context, it makes more sense.

46, 55: I say this for two reasons: 1, our chances of hitting scum today are less than random and 2, because we can more successfully determine whether a good player is scummy tomorrow. Sucky players will still be sucky regardless of alignment and regardless of the day.

[Netopalis]

It should also be noted in Trendy and Subversive that he replaced out without a *great* deal of suspicion against him. If I remember right, he had been away for a while, then all of a sudden he just showed up and claimed scum. As you can imagine, I was pretty ticked. The point is, though, that he doesn't replace out or self-vote if he's scum and starts getting attacked...He replaces out or self-votes if he just starts getting attacked, if he stops enjoying the game, if his shoes are mismatched, if his tie is crooked, if it's Monday evening...he really doesn't need a reason. I've been in 3 other games with him, and in all of those he either self-voted or was replaced.

[Netopalis]

Er, should have been claimed scum and self-voted in Trendy and Subversive, not replaced out.

[Netopalis]

No...I'm not saying that if CSL weren't here, we shouldn't lynch CSL...I'm saying that we should examine SC's actions as a far better predictor, because we know that CSL has a history of being lynched (either correctly or incorrectly) on day 1 for this sort of play.

[Netopalis]

Honestly, I really think he should be limited until he learns to play a bit better, based on the hardship that he puts on mods - either he will derail the game day 1 or he will need to be replaced. That's neither here nor there, though.

I wipe the replacement's slate clean for acts done by idiots. Fumbling about with bad logic that could be the result of idiocy is not a scumtell and is not transferrable. Actual scummy acts made by intelligent people do, however, create a burden on the replacement - but even then, you can't expect a replacement to know and understand what was going through the mind of the person who he replaced.

Finally, I feel kinda bad about lynching replacements immediately after they replace in. It seems to me that if we were going to lynch CSL regardless of what his replacement was going to say, we should have saved SC the trouble of replacing in and having to reread all of this, and saved the mod the trouble of finding yet another replacement in a game that already needed a ton of them. Therefore, I think that lynching SC today would also be ethically wrong, unless we find him scummy independent of CSL's acts.

[Netopalis]

I'd like to throw out something in my defense...as far as not stating whether a lynch is policy-based or not, really, the two do tend to blur a bit with the early votes. The entire reason that I voted for the people that I did is

because they're scummy

. The reason that they're easy targets is

because they're scummy

. Perhaps I may not have given the

best

cases against the people that I voted for...but if you're going to attack someone for that, shouldn't it be Albert? He's not really substantiated any case this game, he's voted for a lot of easy lynches (see: CSL and jumping more heavily on me only after other people agreed that I was scummy - he throws out a lot of unsubstantiated cases, as if he's testing the waters before pushing on them hard). I feel that the only reason that we're NOT going after Albert is because he DOES have the reputation that he does...and that's a dangerous thing. If he ever wanted to win as scum, he could just do what he normally does, throwing out random accusations...and win. It seems to me that this may be what he's doing here.

[Netopalis]

While I *appreciate* you throwing out reasoning on your town reads, it's much, much more helpful if you throw out reasoning on your scum reads.

[Netopalis]

But had time to chastize me for not reading her post?

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: At least, I assume that's what she means by saying that it's "tech".

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I enjoy using more vibrant words.

[Netopalis]

In re: DLA argument, I said in the thread that I probably wasn't the best predictor of his flip due to the fact that we played together before, so I was being intentionally noncommittal because I didn't want that fact to adversely effect the town.

In re: Taking no sides on drama, I didn't want that drama to keep the town busy all day. If I had commented and encouraged it, we'd still be involved in those pointless arguments.

Convenient? Perhaps, but it's true. I, at the time, understood and accepted the arguments against Hewitt advanced by other people. However, I am constantly suspicious of people who place serious votes and expect others to follow without substantiation. Albert does this repeatedly throughout the game. That's my only real problem with him - I find it to be an anti-town action, and I am stymied that anybody follows it.

In re: voting Albert after questioning, I consider the vote to be as much of a social tool as it is an actual mechanism to lynch. I'm not sure what I was supposed to do otherwise if I wanted Albert to answer my question - I'd asked him 3 times and he had ignored me each time. I was hoping that the vote would bring it a bit more to the forefront.

In re: Policy lynches, I stand by my earlier comments - D1 lynches are worse than random, so we're best off lynching someone that, if it turns out that they're town, we're still better off without them. I have yet to see a solid argument against this instead of "I don't like it".

In re: why I was voting Albert over the others, it's because I felt that he could be extremely useful to the town and we could be quite productive, but only so long as he explains what he's doing. If he doesn't and he's mafia, he's just going to keep doing this for the whole game and nobody will really stop him. If he keeps doing it and is town...well, I don't think anybody would argue that he's infalliable. However, his problems are the easiest to correct: Just post some bloody cases. DLA, Shotty and Saber have much more difficult to correct issues, but ones which will not hurt the game nearly as much. Due to Albert's reuptation, he has an enormous amount of power in these games, and that makes me extremely uneasy.

[Netopalis]

Probably not, but I'm keeping my vote on until he answers my questions or until I feel convinced enough of somebody else's scumminess.

[Netopalis]

*sigh* And now he's trying to keep other players from voicing their opinions. More anti-town actions....

[Netopalis]

How useful.

[Netopalis]

In definite terms, what was your case against Hewitt?

In definite terms, what is your case against me?

Given CSL's record (In 84% of his games, he's been either lynched D1 or has replaced out), is it really appropriate to transfer his acts over to SC as you automatically did?

Please elaborate on your earlier desire to lynch one of the strongest players on D1.

What value do you get from asking other players to explain your acts before you explain them?

Why did you decide to align yourself with Hewitt all of a sudden?

[Netopalis]

Specific post where you advocate lynching top players, incidentally...

Quit saying "the following" when it's "the above". Are you still suspicious of DLA?

It's clear to me that there are two types of players in this game:

-Players who generate new content:

Myself
Hewitt
Shotty
Netopalis
Farside22
Kikuchiyo

-Players who feed on existing content or don't post at all:

CSL
saberwolf
DLA
Ellibereth
Konowa (non-poster)
Yarmond (non-poster)

Now I don't know about you, but I sure as hell ain't going to start mislynching the second group while the scum NKs the first group every night. It's obvious that later in the game, scum will want to lynch the easy targets. I'm not looking for an easy target. We have to decide, right now, who among the key players are we going to trust or suspect.

Hewitt, despite the fact that I want you dead, I am willing to investigate the other players before the day ends. Analyze everyone in the first group and I will do the same.

Farside and Kikuchiyo also, I want to see some very detailed posts from you guys about the aforementioned key players in the game. Who is the most likely town? Who is the least likely town?

[Netopalis]

Meh, Ojanen's wasn't *particularly* good either.

[Netopalis]

See, Albert, that's the thing. You were the first one to attack me, but you never said why. Everybody else has been doing the "Hey, Albert's always right!' dance.

[Netopalis]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're basing an argument on the confirmation of

Elibereth, Ojanen and Shotty

?

[Netopalis]

Now, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? You yourself said that you were refusing to state your claim against me, then you claim that I wasn't listening to you? What do you expect me to do, Albert? Lie down and let the town lynch me? Regardless of whether I'm scum or town, it's my duty as a player on this site to play to my win condition. That means aggressively advocating the position that I feel is best for the town. My scumhunting style is to poke holes in arguments, find illogical statements and look for claims that are unsubstantiated. You know this. I'm sorry that I'm not going to bow down to your expectation that I should allow myself to be lynched, and I'm sorry that you've chosen to make this so heated, but I'm not sorry for my actions and I feel that I have been fully justified in the way that I have played this game.

[Netopalis]

Well, that's good, at least. I didn't think you were the type to make this personal...

[Netopalis]

Oh, and let me go ahead and respond to the CS thing while I'm at it...I guess I have been a bit vociferous, but it's mainly because I've been in 4 games with CSL and I was worse off in all of them for it. In one, I was scum with him and he claimed. In 2 of the others, we mislynched him D1. In the fourth, he replaced out. Based on that, I wanted to avoid a mislynch today because I know how easy it can be to just lynch him and get it over with.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and let me just throw this out there too: I think it's a bit wrongheaded to say that only a mason should be leading the charge - the town should look for its heroes where it can find them.

[Netopalis]

But wouldn't you say that he should be playing towards his win condition? And doesn't that mean advocating the position that he thinks is best to advance that win condition? And isn't that independent of his mason/vanilla status?

[Netopalis]

Let me just take a moment to point out the absurdity of this wagon.

We've got Elibereth who is barely cognizant of any happenings within the thread.
We've got Ojanen who just replaced in and has seemed content to simply follow every suspicion that has been stated in the thread.
We've got DLA who has generally been nonsensical and anti-town.

And, finally, we have Albert, who claims that the fact that everybody else is going for me is proof of my scumminess. Whoop-dee-doo. Tell me, Albert, do you choose your minions for their independent thought? Their shocking charisma? Their ability to logically pierce through arguments? Or is it just that these people are in the first sizable group of people to latch onto someone that you wanted rid of?

[Netopalis]

Vanilla. I'm still not sure why you folks are lynching me? Isn't anyone the least concerned over that?

[Netopalis]

Honestly, guys? Really?


Albert, I have to say that the one that I'm most shocked at is you. This is really disgusting. You call this scumhunting? Just calling somebody scum then voting? I can understand it from the others, but you're better than that.

Ojanen, if I were to go and attack everybody that played horribly in this game, I'd need a lot more votes than I had.

If you guys were so bonzer to vote for a vanilla townie, why did everyone jump off of Hewitt like they did?

[Netopalis]

Oh, and for the record....

To quote my earlier statement, an argument is 2-3 sentences explaining

why

somebody is scummy. Without arguments, Mafia becomes an illogical game in which people just vote for people that they don't like or based on some sort of system of divination. Yes, I want arguments. I demand arguments. I do this because the game makes no sense without arguments.

A lynch without arguments breaks the spirit of the game.

[Netopalis]

...And Hewitt also claimed vanilla townie, but the whole town jumped ship. Further, I never accept my lynch if I know that it's a mislynch, especially considering the bloody awful reasons for it. Finally, I don't think that my cases have been that bad - it seems that the town is calling every non-me case bad today.

[Netopalis]

...and most of you now go on my "I refuse to play with you" list...

Especially you, Albert. Love ya, but our playstyles are like oil and water.

[Netopalis]

I still maintain that I'm not exactly sure why I'm being lynched. This wagon is made of pliable people, people who feel pressured and ABR, who seems to thoroughly enjoy playing chess with the opinions of the manipulable.

[Netopalis]

Now, Albert, was that so hard?

My responses:
DLA, Elibereth and Saber are easy lynches

because they were acting scummy

. Therefore, is it not logical that I would

find them to be scummy?

Should I attack the strongest players because they are not acting scummy and thus aren't easy targets?

*shrugs* Originally, my vote was an encouragement for you to act. Yes, I find you to be scummy, because I find people who don't explain their actions to be scummy. I've stated this opinion in multiple games, regardless of my role in those games. The two reasons are not entirely mutually exclusive, although I will admit that the second post was a bit of a mistake.

As far as buddying up with Clergyman, I guess it's more because I can sympathize with his position, having played with CSL so many times and having seen how they generally ended up with mislynches. He's stuck in a tough position due to the actions of a poor player who gets lynched regardless of his role. It seems that, knowing this, we should probably evaluate his status based on his actions and not on a player who is almost always lynched regardless of his role.

My berating of Elibereth and Saber was an attempt to encourage them to improve their play and take the game seriously. I tried asking them. I tried holding their hands. I tried voting. I really don't know what else I could do to get them to play the game right.

I suck at D1, I admit it. I work best on D2-3 because there is enough evidence there to work on. However, the vast majority of this game has been me trying to defend myself against claims, so I haven't had a great deal of opportunity to advance my own arguments.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and some further points on CSL...I compiled his history at this site just to make sure that I wasn't wholly off point.

N830 - Lynched D1
N852 - Survived and won
Normal 102 - Replaced
N834 - Replaced
N839 - Lynched D2
Stars Aligned - Lynched D4 (Same day as he replaced in)
O185 - Lynched D1
O162 - Lynched D1, claimed scum
O165 - Replaced (Due to banning due to the breakage of the night-talking rule)
O167 - Replaced
M847 - Replaced
N806 - Lynched D3 (same day as he replaced in)
M105 - Lynched D1
N824 - Lynched D1
N825 - Lynched D3
O177 - Replaced
M102 - Replaced
O185 - Lynched D1


(N=Newbie, Normal = Normal, M = Mini)

Lynched D1 or same day that he replaced into - 8 times (44%)
Replaced - 7 times (38%)
Lynched later or won - 3 (16%)

Total games: 18


He's been scum in 2 of those games. Thus, if you're lynching CSL on D1, the chances are that, more likely than not, it is a mislynch.

[Netopalis]

I don't think so. In fact, I think it illustrates my point rather well.

[Netopalis]

Let me elaborate a bit more:

The argument is that SC is scummy because CSL was scummy.

My statistic shows that CSL will be found scummy whether or not he is scum-aligned.

Therefore, CSL's scumminess is not a good predictor of scumminess.

Therefore, SC should be evaluated without CSL's posts taken into account.

[Netopalis]

Oh. I guess I never did post that. My apologies. To make a long story short, I really didn't like his defenses. He seemed to be more panicked at the slightest hint of suspicion than I would expect a townie to be. I also feel that he didn't answer the questions directed at him very well.

As for Ellibereth, I'm not attacking him because he's new, I'm attacking him because 95% of his posts show that he hasn't been reading the game. If it were simple newbishness, I could understand. This, however, appears to be more of a willful apathy towards the game.

[Netopalis]

Oh, also, ABR, why did you feel the need to stall and refuse to answer my questions? If it was so obvious that you had answered them a few pages back (which I'm still not entirely seeing...I see a few on-point posts, but no in-depth cases), then why didn't you just say, "I said X here, here, and here?" We could have saved the town a lot of pointless bickering...

[Netopalis]

But you didn't even suspect me all that much at the time. Also, I said that it was more for a read on your play than it was for a read on Hewitt's.