Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[hewitt]

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Yes yes we share too many games. I just asked you a direct question in another, go answer it.

[saberwolf]

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Yes yes we share too many games. I just asked you a direct question in another, go answer it.

I did. I find it curious how you aren't consistent in all games too...at least I am...

[Netopalis]

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Honestly? Seriously? Really? Are you and Elibereth in some sort of a "Who cares the least?" competition?

[saberwolf]

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Honestly? Seriously? Really? Are you and Elibereth in some sort of a "Who cares the least?" competition?

no, not really, and yes, except neither of us know it yet.

[hewitt]

I did. I find it curious how you aren't consistent in all games too...at least I am...

Why should I be? At least in this game you've got players that are SEVERELY worse than you in terms of unhelpfulness and anti-town behavior. Seriously though I would not mind you being lynched at all.

[Shotty to the Body]

We've also got Shotty to the Body who is probably my top pick for scum. HE exhibits the same 'going for easy targets' mentality with the same 'unoriginal thinking' mentality. He starts off voting ofr Konowa (+++) but then relatively quickly both unvotes AND says that he's prepared to lynch either lynchbait candidate immediately without saying it's a policy vote.

I can't decide if I want to vote Saber, DLA, or keep it where it is, choices choices... Ah what the hell unvote, vote DLA

How is starting on Konowa a +++ given that that was my random vote? Also please prove my 'unoriginal thinking' given I brought the case on DLA later in the day by myself, have taken an original position on CSL, actually tried to make some connections between players.

The easy lynch candidates on page 5? Fantastic bringing the beginning up now, you're right I wanted to

vote

(nice misrep using lynch instead of vote when you talk about it BTW) the people who had behaved scumilly so far, no shit. The fact you try to prove that I've only been following the "easy lynches" using quotes from page 5 is pretty sad.

Then, what's the logical next step for the scumbucket? Joining the ABR-pushed wagon. Tick!

How is that a misrep? You accuse me and ABR of not contributing (which, at least in my case, is a flat-out lie) and use that as a scum-tell. That would imply that YOU contribute unless you're admitting to being scum? He never said you were a top contributer just that you don't contribute either, so now you're misrepping him.

unvote, vote hewitt

Right, nice of you to skip the step where I get discussion going again and ignore ABR's Elli wagon which is an EASY, I STRESS EASY, wagon. If I'm such an easy wagon hunter why don't I vote for Elli? Obviously I just follow ABR around on everything because I agreed with him about Hewitt who I voted for my own reasons according to this guy.

I could go for a DLA lynch today or tomorrow, if we lynched hewitt today and he flipped town I would be 100% behind a DLA lynch day two.

Lining up lynches. One of my faaaavourite scumtells, and one of the few conventional scumtells that actually does catch scum. This is essentially all I need for my vote. But then, this next post came along!

Absolutely must be your favorite, good to see you devoid of the original thinking you criticize everyone else for not having by mimicking farside's points.

I encourage everyone to unvote vote DLA. ABR is an obvious scum-buddy to DLA considering how much DLA was vacuumed to ABR's opinions and as newb-scum didn't know any better to hide all the blatant buddying big enough to choke a horse.

Sorry, what? Shotty was right up in hewitt's business with his boy ABR and now ABR and DLA are scumbuddies? This is rubbish. When called on lining up lynches, he says (with historical innacuracy):

Who pushed Hewitt's lynch the hardest? ABR and DLA? Last time I checked pushing mislynches was bad? Hewitt said the same thing in 278. Why aren't you busting his balls?

Please point out how it is rubbish champ, nice of you to throw out conjecture, I find it amusing how badly you want to disprove the link between DLA and ABR. Let's see the posts that relate them shall we.

ABR specifically ignores DLA's terrible OMGUS against farside, he goes on that page to ask other's about DLA without commenting on it himself and finally excuses post 74 in 99 contingent on a reasonable explanation that never comes and ABR never presses him for, intent to hunt the easy target Ell instead.

DLA defends ABR against Hewitt.

DLA feels the need to apologize to ABR

ABR literally

telling

him how to scum-hunt. Funny how his lack of scum-hunting isn't scummy but should be corrected and then ignored even though it gets no better.

DLA votes saber for BWing which saber has been doing all game, funny how he only mentions it when it was a vote on him or ABR, how odd. He even started this pattern all the way back in post 193 when Saber voted for ABR.

I also like how you continually try to tie my case on Hewitt to ABR when we voted for entirely separate things and I developed my own case as I talked to Hewitt which ABR later added onto his reasons Hewitt was scummy.

I mention wanting to lynch to DLA before ABR even moves his vote from the Hewitt wagon, so I don't see how that suddenly made me want to attack DLA. It has far more to do with DLA after his awesome scum-hunting (AKA OMGUS posts) in between my mentioning that and my next post.

If you at all doubt DLA's scuminess or that I was pushing an easy wagon without original thought here you all fucking go. I did all this on my own and mentioned this as my preferred lynch repeatedly, even when no one else was thinking about it, guess I only hunt the easy targets lolol /sarcasm.

OMGUS vote for Farside that "isn't OMGUS" guys, for sure

FoS for a bullshit reason given that I'd been posting against Hewitt and voting him for a page or two uninterrupted and the players I mentioned hadn't posted for pages.

Calls SEVEN people scum in a game with 3, waffles on Hewitt, wants to call farside town but fails to pick a position on her due to some nonsense about her being skilled and getting up her post count (WTF?), only 'town' player listed is ABR SHOCKING!

Votes here only after I mention wanting to lynch him, never replies to my points against his case, which is weak as hell. I countered every point but of course he declines to address any of them.

Votes CSL because CSL voted him, OMGUS vote from DLA? SHOCKING AGAIN! GOOD THING THIS AIN'T AN ELECTRIC CHAIR!

Another vote where I try to confront his ridiculous reasoning with logic and he once again declines, it was hard to even try considering how one of his points was him being town, another that he saw my future play, and the third being that I somehow spoke for everyone[/quote]

There is more but this is already a gigantic wall, which I apologise for but it's my replacing in post. Essentially, he then defends CSL to show he's not going after easy targets and to try to heap crap onto farside when the reality is at about post 160 he said he was prepared to lynch TWO SEPARATE EASY TARGETS in saber and DLA.

Of course there's always more unmentioned, the good wrap-up to any legitimate case.

Right at 160 huh. My only post on that page was about Kikuchiyo's fucking avatar, amazing how you provide outright misinformation in your post.

The post he's trying to reference was my fourth post of the game, barely out of RVS where I said I was willing to vote Saber or DLA for what they'd done in the first few pages. Of course I'm "hunting easy lynches" there, along with the rest of the scum on DLA's aforementioned awesome list I suppose, which is like everyone at this point. I think 'everyone' at this point includes at least 5 other players including Farside, ABR, Kikuchiyo, Konowa, Neto all were talking about running up either Saber or DLA at this point.

BTW all of my content against DLA and the connections to ABR are original and thoughtful. If you can't find a reason to lynch DLA and REASONABLY SUSPECT ABR if DLA is scum based on all this information you're probably lying. Since you all QQ about lining up lynches let's take this one fucking day at a time and lynch DLA now kthx?

I don't know if I'm voting him already, but

unvote vote DLA

.

[saberwolf]

Another inspirational post!

unvote; vote: DLA

[dramonic]

The Seventh Votecount: The Man With The Rubber Vote!

DarkLightA (3): Hewitt, SttB, Saberwolf
saberwolf (2): Ojanen, DarkLightA
Netopalis (1): ABR
SttB (3): SerialClergyman, Farside, Elli
ABR (1): Netopalis

Not Voting (2): KittyMo, Kikuchiyo

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline is the 23rd at 23:59!

[DarkLightA]

SC's big post has inspired me to

unvote; vote: shotty

Yet another BW post. You do realize that not everyone is town, right?

I just ISOed ABR, and not anywhere did I see him say that anybody in the game as being town, and has accused just about everybody of being scum, so he's really no better than the rest of us.

I also noticed a fascinating post that said you would not mislynch me and a few others, good to know

You stopped after ISO #1? Cmon, do the rest too.

It makes me cry in

bed

at night.

Corrected. You shower in the morning.

-----

HERE'S ANOTHER SABER DEAL:

Unvote, Vote: Albert B. Rampage

I refuse to vote jump this time.

haha, surprised myself.

Later

Yay for laziness!

boo for sarcasm

You just earned yourself a vote:

unvote; vote: ABR

Now I need neto to comment on this so I can switch my vote again.

Wow.

----

So Scum are: Neto, Shotty, DLA, Serial. One too many...

I've heard Ellibereth too, and ABR, and hewitt*, and saber... Stop agreeing to everything.

*why isn't he on your list?


----

woah, hewitt's in this game too? :shocked:

Honestly? Seriously? Really? Are you and Elibereth in some sort of a "Who cares the least?" competition?

XD!!

----

@Shotty: Funny how you managed to make it seem like I was scum with ABR. However I'm pretty sure I could do that with you and hewitt too if I wanted to..

[DarkLightA]

Another inspirational post!

unvote; vote: DLA

Lesson learned: Any player who posts a suspicion will be able to double vote that player, saber taken into consideration.

I have a feeling that saber is doing this on purpose now.

[Netopalis]

I'd agree, but it would be too ironic.

[SerialClergyman]

@ Albert - lol, thanks for keeping me around. Hope you continue to find me good entertainment. I wish I was secretly batman, because batman was a vigilante, and I'd enjoy mafia a LOT more if I was always a vig.

You don't get to get me to switch to your wagon without commenting on any of my reads. Shotty is a better wagon and a viable lynch, if either of thsoe things come knocking I'll reassess. It's also D1, so essentially I'm looking to reserve 4 or 5 players I don't want to lynch and at the end of the day I'll lynch just about anyone else.

Your critique of my point about CSL was unsurprising apart from a few key points.

t can certainly mean that CSL was unsure of his scumbuddies' reaction to a town hewitt getting closer to lynch. Maybe his two partners are either on the wagon or threatening to hammer, and he wants to play the opposing side to not out the scum team. There are a lot of interpretations.

Now, you went through every one of CSL's posts and posted a paraphrase of his 'actual' meaning. Now you're saying there are a lot of interpretations and it could be scummy for a variety of reasons. Lazy hunting. It's like when people say he's either buddying town or defending a scumbuddy - you can't have it both ways. Either you can tell us the secret meaning to all his posts, or there are plenty of interpretations of which some number are scummy.

Aside from that, it's just meh, stuff to disagree on. You reckon he claimed scum, I reckon he gave up as town, I have my role PM, his badness and your bullying to back up my view. You have your 'conditioning' to back up your view. Essentially that just goes to the judges and I get lynched or I don't.

Actually, I'm going to quote that bit for the lulz:

I am conditioned to reflexively suspect the series of posts that CSL made before he was replaced

You don't sound like the joker, you sound like C3PO.

Neto continues to perplex with yet another vote on ABR, this one for full serious. Points for balls, negative points for stupidity/wrongness. I can garuantee with 95% certainty that Albert is town.

Saber - are you thinking of replacing out by any chance?

Ellibereth - your homework is to not play how you've been playing. If you agree with my entire assessment of your play, you are playing in a scummy and unhelpful manner. You aren't a member of the audience, you aren't something waiting to be pushed around by the tides of other people's arguments and opinions. Fire up and find some scum. Make my case not be true, and I won't think you are scum. But I'll give you points for admitting it. Note to hewitt - never discourage players when they admit cases against them. Get frustrated when they refuse to change, not when they acknowledge a negative point agaisnt them.

SttB - I'm going to try to not get into a wall war with you over a D1 scum read. I'll try to summarise some of the key points:

1) You use a lot of AtE in your defence. Did I offend you, or the case against you offend you, or do you regularly get fired up when suspected?
2) I feel at times you are missing the point of what I say, or just have vaugely irrelevent responses. When I say:

when the reality is at about post 160 he said he was prepared to lynch TWO SEPARATE EASY TARGETS in saber and DLA.

You argue against it by attacking the post number (you made your statement around post 100 - your post around 160 was moving on to your next attack) and by attacking the difference between 'vote' and 'lynch'.

Right at 160 huh. My only post on that page was about Kikuchiyo's fucking avatar, amazing how you provide outright misinformation in your post.

Well that's just a whole crapload of semantics. Whether your post was around 100 or 160, the point remains that very early on you showed a clear intention to attack two easy targets. Whether you said vote or lynch, you showed a clear intention to attack them and push for them to be lynched. The point is that early in this game, you attacked two easy targets. Then when arguing against farside, you accuse her of going after an easy target!

No amount of semantics deals with the point I raised. That is a hypocritical stance, whether the post was 100 or 160, yes?

The same sort of thing can be said about:

The fact you try to prove that I've only been following the "easy lynches" using quotes from page 5 is pretty sad.

So what? Page 5 is no longer relevent?

Of course there's always more unmentioned, the good wrap-up to any legitimate case.

meh

3) Pretty random attacks. Things like:

I find it amusing how badly you want to disprove the link between DLA and ABR. Let's see the posts that relate them shall we.

Well, why do I want to do that? It's easy enough to throw out the thought, but I don't think you think I'm scum, and I'm not sure what you think about ABR, but the only reason I'd want to disprove that link was if I was scum with both ABR and DLA. Any other scum alignment combinations would see me want to keep that alignment link between ABR and DLA in tact, and obviously if I'm town I am just looking for the truth.

So why say it? Did you even think through the implications of the action you were assigning my motivation to?

Same sort of thing here:

I also like how you continually try to tie my case on Hewitt to ABR when we voted for entirely separate things and I developed my own case as I talked to Hewitt which ABR later added onto his reasons Hewitt was scummy.

You and ABR attacked him in tandem. What reason to I have to tie you, my suspect, with ABR, the person I think is the most obvtown in the game? Another crack about what I'm intentionally trying to do that makes no sense.

Absolutely must be your favorite, good to see you devoid of the original thinking you criticize everyone else for not having by mimicking farside's points.

Are you trying to say that I've been devoid of original thinking? Do you think most of my main post was recycled stuff? If not, then why mention it? I'm not trying to claim credit for it, it was duly raised by farside and I'm merely saying that I agree with it 100%. I was NKed in a game recently where I found scum D1 and pushed his wagon very hard specifically using this tell.
But you had no defence to it, or no reason for why you felt you had to have one lynch first then the other. You just attack it for not being original. You aren't addressing the concern at all.

4) Your case against DLA. I'll give you some points for this bit, because it was more extensive than I appreciated with my reread. But it is still against an EASY TARGET. Now, if you were a player to go after anyone who looked 'scummy' according to the dummies guide to mafia, you would be voting CSL, not defending him. So I know you have it in you to defend players who are new or bad, and I know you have it in you to criticise other players for going after bad or new players. But I also know that for almost the entire game, those are EXACTLY THE PLAYERS YOU YOURSELF ARE GOING AFTER.

And post 219 you were accusing hewitt of misrepping ABR and were on hewitts wagon with ABR.

You then say nothing negative about ABR at all, stay on the hewitt wagon, line up the next lynch after hewitt to be DLA.

Then in post 381 you say ABR is obv scum! And what, hewitt, the guy you've been pushing as scum for pages now is presumably town, unless you think ABR was bussing hard. I don't see you making that turnaround. How did you get from I'm on a wagon with townABR looking to kill scumHewitt to scumABR has been coaching a buddy to push a mislynch case on townHewitt. I just don't see that total 180.

---

Ugh.. I've just wallposted after saying I'd try not to. Sorry guys, I will genuinely try to cut down soon. I just feel I'm onto something and I don't want shallow theatrics (you'd LIKE to eliminate the link between ABR and DLA, wouldn't you?? ) take away from a solid case.

I also found another lining up lynches:

Ridiculous, fine. DLA tomorrow.

unvote vote CSL

Ugh.

[Netopalis]

SC: How can you guarantee with 95% certainty that ABR is not scum? To me, his latest actions of failing to vote without providing clear logic are classic scum tactics.

[SerialClergyman]

Just read some of his games. ABR loves playing town because he gets more of an ego boost from ripping apart scumteams and bending the town to his will than from sneaking around trying to get mislynches. (Feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong - no offense intended )

Look at the ripe abandon with which he's played this game. If he's faking this level of enthusiasm and drive then he's got me hook line and sinker.

Then add onto that what seems like genuine scumhunting to me (albeit poor hunting) and a presence around the town - I mean the man told me he was going to leave me alive because I was funny. Sheeeer arrogance. He'd never say that as scum, but he's ballsy enough to say it as town, to feel like (often justifyably) he can turn the entire town onto a wagon.

Ugh - I know I'm not being as concrete as you'd probably like, but I love ABR's playstyle and I just sense it big time. It's just obvious to me. Read some of his games and you'll see what I mean, I think.

[DarkLightA]

SC, can you include names in your quotes? Makes it much easier to read.

[Shotty to the Body]

@Shotty: Funny how you managed to make it seem like I was scum with ABR. However I'm pretty sure I could do that with you and hewitt too if I wanted to..

Why is it funny? It's pretty serious from where I'm sitting.

Do you think I'm scum with Hewitt? Why would you not want to post these thoughts if I am? If I'm not, why mention it?

[SerialClergyman]

I try to use at least one name when I start a block, but I see I didn't above. It's pretty obvious if you read in post who my quotes are, but for clarity - the first two are ABR and the rest are Shotty.

[Shotty to the Body]

Bleh could you fix the tag for me there mod. =\

[Netopalis]

That makes a bit more sense. I respectfully disagree, but I can see your points.

[farside22]

I just want to know one thing. When someone makes a comment like this.

Right pushing DLA is defending CSL. I just said I don't know his alignment or care, he's not the right play. His lynch will be info-less. Talking to you is pointless,

when DLA flips scum

lynching you next.

How are you not voting on them? Once again only scum know who is scum. He is saying when not if in this comment. As ABR said many a post ago. Cutting off the head of the snake is more profound.

[SerialClergyman]

Nero - You think he's scum and you've seen me out and out defend him D1 without any flips or anything concrete.

What does that make me? Did my answer sway your read?

[SerialClergyman]

farside - that's actually the kind of language tell that I hate. I'm sure I've said something similar, I often say 'blah is town' or 'blah is certainly scum'. If you are actually scum you can control that. Any decent player can be careful to say 'if they flip...' or 'we were right' not 'the town was right'. It's just easy to circumnavigate, so once the tell is common knowledge, it's pretty worthless. I wouldn't put much stock in that quote you posted at all, to be perfectly honest.

[Netopalis]

It did persuade me somewhat that ABR's play may be the result of his pro-town style...although, that being said, I've played in two games with him - one with him as scum and one with him as town. He was actually more sullen and less useful in the one in which he was town. I do know of his reputation in the manner that you discuss, though.

Your defense of ABR does not necessarily paint you as scum if ABR flips scum - it only does so if your defense is for weak reasons. I've often inadvertently defended scum players as town before, as I am sure that everyone else has. The trick is to see whether the defense is irrational or not, in my opinion.

[Shotty to the Body]

There's no AtE, I don't need anyone's sympathy to sway their vote, it's called anger it doesn't appeal to players, it generally makes them ignore my arguments actually which is rather frustrating which increases my anger and cycles ad infinitum. I usually get mad when I'm being attacked for something I consider crappy, you can check out Infection Mini for a good example.

If DLA is an easy player it's because he's done a TON of scummy things and made a pattern of it and created links to another player. I know CSL is an easy player, he plays scumilly as all hell when I've played with him before. DLA never struck me as that kind of retarded, he acts like scum AFAIC, maybe it's bias because I've played with CSL before, but DLA isn't that kind of 'easy lynch' material like CSL is.

My huge problem is that you say I hunt easy lynches from a post on page 5, if you reread the first part of my wall post my main argument against that is that on page 5 DLA and Saber were the only ones who even pinged the scumdar, they were like the only ones even being talked about. No one else had done anything terribly scummy at that point, so how can I pick anyone else? The easy lynch target theory doesn't even hold because I've ignored other easy wagons.

I won't apologize for setting up lynches, it makes sense to say where you would like to go the next day in case you are killed, the drawback is it creates WIFOM, yes, but I still think I should put my thoughts out there. In sake of dealing with the current issues and among the outcry of "qq setting up lynches qq," I want to just move forward with the DLA lynch that I'm quite sure on and deal with the rest tomorrow. I'm not nearly 100% sure of my ABR read, but DLA I AM quite sure of.

[Shotty to the Body]

farside - that's actually the kind of language tell that I hate. I'm sure I've said something similar, I often say 'blah is town' or 'blah is certainly scum'. If you are actually scum you can control that. Any decent player can be careful to say 'if they flip...' or 'we were right' not 'the town was right'. It's just easy to circumnavigate, so once the tell is common knowledge, it's pretty worthless. I wouldn't put much stock in that quote you posted at all, to be perfectly honest.

Thank you for some common sense. Like I said, Farside is more concerned with what looks scummy, I don't have any idea if that's due to alignment or just the way she plays.