Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Excedrin]

/confirm

[Excedrin]

FoS: Sigma

Should you wait to convince people that you've found scum?

Case in point, Papa Zito. His sarcastic response seems pretty scummy to me. Easy game indeed.

Vote: Papa Zito

[Excedrin]

If you're saying that scum has to be proven by a case that includes multiple points, then I disagree.

For example, you have a reliable read based on meta that whenever a particular player does X, they're likely scum, then you observe that behavior on the first page.

Actually, I find that scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town as the game progresses because they explain away and fix their scummy behavior.

[Excedrin]

I find that scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town as the game progresses because they explain away and fix their scummy behavior.

So if Papa comes up with a valid and sensible explanation, that would actually

reinforce

your opinion that he is scum?

It depends. This is a slightly confusing to answer because it's about the specific instance of Papa Zito and also future actions. I mean, is it a theory question or a specific "in this instance" question?

In theory, if someone's valid and sensible explanation made more sense if they're scum, then yea, maybe it would reinforce my opinion. Maybe that's a bad example, but the point is, I can think of situations where something like what you're objecting to could happen.

Setting up "screwed if you do, screwed if you don't"-traps isn't pro-town.

I think that others have explained this, I objected to the idea that scum can't be found based on an early post or that, upon finding something scummy, people shouldn't vote because of it and try to draw attention to it because it's early in the game.

I actually agree with Excedrin that "scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town", but you know what? So does regular townies. And this is just as rational and easily observed in the forums. Therefore, this isn't a reliable way to hunt scum.

Scum sometimes does something scummy early. Town sometimes does something scummy early. Both will gradually appear to be town. Conclusion, ignore early scumtells. Is that it?

Others have explained my post, but I'm not sure if anyone has said that I don't consider the pattern:
1. appear to be scum
2. later, appear to be town based on explanations and/or improved behavior

to be a scumtell, since as you said, both scum and town can follow that pattern. If I did think that was worth looking for, I wouldn't be voting based on it yet; page 3 doesn't really qualify as "later".

Also, I meant "fix" as in, lets say, X is accused of not scumhunting on day 1, then on day 2 they scumhunt more. They've fixed their anti-town behavior.

So: If this theory is valid, then it can be very easily tested by looking at earlier games you've played as town and checking whether or not your first non-random vote (=your first vote for someone who did something scummy) has been for actual scum or just regular townies.

Who said anything about "first non-random vote"? There are more reasons to vote than solely because a scumtell was spotted, right?
An experiment to test this would be more like:
1. there's some early behavior that seems scummy (to someone? to a big chunk of the town? to a few players?)
2. the target of suspicion explains it away or improves their behavior
3. suspicion dies down
Then compare scum to town ratio or whatever. But really, what's the point? Scum hunting is subjective and situational and probably impossible to reduce to pure math.

Rising, what do you think about Papa Zito's post #40?
Could you explain your vote for Dry-fit? Were there some stated reasons that I missed?

Anyone who says that they're sure that they've found scum on page 2 is lying -- or possibly scum trying to look like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player.

Early bus never happens?

Or, explain, Excedrin, why the sarcasm indicates scumhood.

Sarcasm can be scummy in some cases, especially if it's used to dismiss a case against oneself. I'm not sure if I can justify anything beyond that.

Contrary to Kmd4390, I don't have a strong opinion that Papa Zito is scum (yet). I am looking forward to more from Kmd4390.

I'm not sure why sigma (and Rising?) assumed that Kmd4390's goal was to attract votes and lynch Papa Zito. I read it the same way that Dry-Fit did. Votes and justification in the early game are often not as solid as they are later on, I don't really have a problem with reading Kmd4390's initial vote and reason as that.

[Excedrin]

Excedrin seemed too quick to jump without having anything to add. Scum if Zito is town. Then again, he's new and Zito is probably scum, so I can see newbtown. Depends on Zito's alignment though.

Zito, Porkens is probably town and Excedrin is probably town too. Who do you find scummy?

There's nothing scummy about the votes on you either. Porkens clearly wanted a reaction. Excedrin is obviously a newer player and newer players tend to be either VERY opportunistic or VERY cautious.

I don't like the implications here that looks like:
1. one of Zito and Excedrin is scum
2. Porkens is probably town for wanting a reaction
3. Excedrin is noob (opportunistic scum) or town if Zito is scum

This looks like a trap because most I think that most noobs will probably say, "I'm not a noob." So, just to get it out of the way, I'm a noob to forums mafia, I've played less than 10 games. However, I've played slightly over 2500+ games on IRC with a 50% win rate.

Why isn't the part that applies to Porkens applicable to Excedrin? Why was the "Excedrin wanted a reaction" option left out?

Rising, what do you think? Does this look trappy to you or am I reaching?

If sarcasm = scum then game over, the whole site just lost.

More sarcasm? Please elaborate on how my 3rd vote or Porkens' 2nd vote was opportunistic. I'm fairly sure that there was zero chance of your actual lynch based only on Kmd4390's "case." If my vote was opportunistic, then were the people who didn't hop on your wagon overly cautious?

Kast, I dislike your reason for withholding your vote. In your view, would stating a top suspect have the same negative effect of allowing scum to jump on wagons and blend easier while pushing a mislynch?

being unhelpful is scummy.

youre unhelpful

I'm not sure if you're unhelpful, but does being difficult to read count as being scummy?

Is this typical play (non-voting, extremely terse responses, etc) for Rosso Carne?

Anyway, it's better than Kast because Rosso at least has a stated hammah target.

[Excedrin]

Somewhat offtopic:
I played SC1 forever ago and picked up SC2 based on joining this game. But I'm horrible, I can kill Ur-Quan dreadnaughts in 3 shots, but because I took so long gathering minerals/bio data to buff my ship (while ignoring plot related stuff), some of the races are dead so I never met the bird looking guys and therefore probably can't beat the fight vs the space station... Soooo yea, need to start over.

Back on topic:
I haven't seen opportunism described as a town tell; if it's meant that way then Kmd4390 "trap" idea goes away. I don't think that Papa Zito means it that way, but he didn't propose the option between A) opportunistic noob and B) town if Zito is scum.

Yes, more sarcasm. How did my meta research turn out, BTW? Because I'm going to assume that, if you're going to vote someone because of the way they're posting, then you've done the research to back that up amirite?

I wouldn't call them overly cautious. I'd call them observant enough to avoid a crap wagon.

Did I say somewhere that I was voting you based on meta? My comment about meta was an example of a case where scum could be identified based on an early post, I said nothing about using meta to justify my Papa Zito vote or that I thought meta could frequently catch scum based on early posts. FTR, I voted you mainly for reaction. Am I correct that you view opportunism as scummy (in contrast with Kmd4390) in this instance?

Anyway, to address your question, no, I obviously haven't read any Papa Zito games in order to establish a meta and I don't believe it was necessary to vote when I did for the reason I did. But, I'm not opposed to the idea of reading other games, it can only help right?

General question for anyone, is there an easy way to find a list of games that someone's played (preferably completed games)?

[Excedrin]

Excedrin: what would your read on Papa Zito be if he entirely failed to stop looking scummy?

If he persists in looking scummy my read would be scum.

Excedrin: do you think KMD isn't that serious with his vote and accusation? If you do think he's serious, what do you mean by 'solid'?

I thought that his initial reasons and vote were intended to provoke and not totally serious. Solid in terms of backed by greater evidence and stronger reasoning etc. Kmd4390's reasoning since then is a bit stronger, Papa Zito doesn't seem to be scumhunting (but he's V/LA) and he's still sarcastic (except for when he talks about SC2).

His post #74 has the same thing that KeelieRavenWolf objected to in Plum's 1st post.

-Missed your previous post about disliking my lack of vote and claiming that Rosso's behavior is better than my own. Strongly disagree.

I've been sharing thoughts with explanations on multiple players throughout my posts. Nobody has jumped out as probably scum, so at this point I don't see any reason to place a vote yet.

Rosso has neither placed a vote

nor offered any thoughts

. I can't fathom how saying he would like to hammer a player for

absolutely no reason

can possibly be better than actually sharing thoughts and participating in the game.

Later everyone will be able to read day 1 and see that Rosso stated willing to hammer Kast, whereas Kast is generally suspicious of a number of players for a variety of reasons, none of them strong enough to vote or even state, "X is my top suspect." The contrast is between strong directed suspicion and a weak blanket of suspicion.

Bold parts are untrue. RC has stated: Kast is scum, Papa Zito is unhelpful/scummy but probably because he's noob. He also has a reason but has refused to share it.

I see what you're saying here, but there are more playstyles than a sort of constant-mental-dump of the current tally of who is scum and who is town.

-Dunno about an easy way to just see a list. You can click the player's profile and find all posts by that player, then jump around to different pages to find completed games.

Seems like search is disabled.

re: Kmd4390

I wasn't a fan of the way in which he generated discussion

Is there something scummy about Kmd4390's method of starting discussion?

I knew there was someone else that I was forgetting about. With no replacements, lurkers should be lynched.

Does a modkill end the day?

What do you think about KeelieRavenWolf's reason for voting Plum? (guilty conscience based on Plum's 1st post)

KeelieRavenWolf's post #46 (only post aside from confirmation) seems to have been missed (Kmd4390 has commented on it), but it's a bad post. It's fluffy, says that despite early game being about "causing a scattered reaction to judge town or scum," treats Kmd4390's post as serious, then ignores it and votes Plum for joking randomvote.

[Excedrin]

EBWOP: votes Plum for something she mentioned in her RVS vote (that Plum said she's town).

[Excedrin]

Excedrin, search isn't disabled anymore.

Turns out that Papa Zito has an updated wiki page with all of his previous games.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin: Further thoughts on Zito as he's progressed through the game thus far? New impressions? Reinforced impressions?

I actually read some of his completed games, in his 1st game (ever, and as scum) he was very scummy, but that's to be expected. He's at least not that obvious now.

In Mini 817 Papa Zito (town) was wagoned to L-2 very early. His reaction was basically, "so, I'm at L-2 on page 2" and then voted someone who wasn't on the wagon without stating reasons (at the time, he justified it well shortly afterwards) who later flipped scum. He was also (joke) voted for not RVS voting in his first post in this game.

I also read Boost 2 and /in-vitational 2 and his tone is often joking / sarcastic and his posts are typically brief. He is aware that voting without reasons can be OK to pressure someone, it seems odd that he'd be as bothered as he appears to be by Kmd4390's initial post and vote. It's starting to seem likely that he isn't actually bothered by it, and his responses are typically sarcastic regardless of align. So the only question is why isn't he scumhunting more (obviously right now he's V/LA, but aside from that)? Maybe he is and we'll see some good analysis when he catches up.

[Excedrin]

@ Sigma : How would it be possible for me to "Prove" to you that I shouldn't be lynched? You have no proof but my word, saying that I have two jobs, both nearing full-time status; on top of which I have one dead parent and two siblings who are minors and require my attention every so often. Forgive me if it seems I am "making things up", as I am not.
Of course, it is all on you to see I am telling the truth; if you still wish to vote me, feel free. It'll be on you're head when innocent blood is spilled.

Your situation sounds stressful, maybe SpyreX could make an exception and find you a replacement?

From a game perspective, this is a good example of appeal to emotion. I'm not sure why you needed to go into so much detail with basically one vote on you. I mean, everyone has stuff going on in their lives, you chose to explain details instead of simply "Sorry, I've been very busy."

[Excedrin]

Hi Papa Zito, could you take a look at #163 and comment about Mini 817, does being the center of attention stop you from scumhunting?

Also, Dry-fit was in that game with you, what do you think about the cases against him in this game by sigma (#162), Kast (#168) and Rising (#65 maybe ignore this one since he admits it was a pressure vote in #152 and #166)?

[Excedrin]

b) you've got ulterior motives in trying to get someone to pick you up. I'm leaning towards the latter because I just don't see why you would be given the option to simply blow a ship up that's of no use to you personally.

Everyone has the ability to blow up the ship they're on, it's mentioned in the 1st post.

Dropping game setup information that does not point to a lynch or any vote leaders right before deadline is...distracting.

Agreed.

If Papa Zito is going to claim, does it make sense for him to claim his race only, ship only, or both? If he claims his own race only and it looks good, reduces suspicion etc, then is there any reason to reveal ship as well?

Since I don't know Porkens' ship's racial ability this is speculation, but it seems like his plan is a bad idea or it would have been better to do it without announcing it.

The act of retrieving a jettisoned player is a night action. Since Porkens will be floating around in space this night or on the start of day 2, is it possible to retrieve him as tonight's night action?

[Excedrin]

Sigma, your Keelie vote is a lurker-pressure vote. Please place it on someone with at least two votes (Zito, Dry-fit, Kast). Locke, either push a case on me that will get 6 quickvotes (unlikely) or change your vote to Zito, Dry, or Kast. Dry, Sigma isn't going to be lynched. Change your vote. Jelly, same thing I said to Sigma. Rosso isn't going to be lynched. Choose on of Zito, Dry, and Kast.

I don't like the inclusion of Dry-fit as someone with 2 votes since Rising has stated he's not behind a Dry-fit lynch.

There's basically only one vote for Dry-fit (Kast).

In effect, there's also 2 votes for Kast (Porkens and Rosso Carne).

It seems like there's not much consensus for a 2nd lynch choice, so I'm going to make this clear now:

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

Fuck it,

Unvote, Vote: Kast

I have reservations about Papa Zito lynch but I'm still willing to vote Papa Zito to avoid NL. I'm also willing to vote for sigma.

[Excedrin]

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

There was 4 on Zito, with myself and Sigma both indicating preference for Zito over no lynch. That is a viable lynch. Please explain how switching to Kast prevents a NL?

I miswrote, if this Kast wagon is going nowhere I'm willing to move my vote back to Papa Zito or to sigma.

Lets put it this way, how many scum are on Papa Zito's wagon right now? I thought about that and decided that I'm much happier on the Kast wagon.

Papa Zito is my 3rd preference though I have reservations about his lynch. Consider my vote still on him if you like. If he's at 6 votes I'll hammer.

And if your only reason from switching from Zito, whom you had at least a little case on, to Kast is simply because Porkens is voting Kast and you believe Porkens to be probtown.

That's not the only reason. I think Kast is likely scum.

[Excedrin]

I don't like the implication that because Papa Zito has 4 votes and Kast has 1 vote, the choice is between Papa Zito and Dry-fit. So, I considered simply stating that I'm willing to vote Kast, but after reflection I decided that I should vote whoever I think is scummiest.

Since Rosso's vote is invisible, there's 3 on Kast, with Kmd4390 possibly willing to vote Kast.

I didn't like the false dilemma set up by Kmd4390 in his post, that's why I quoted it before failing to explain my unusual behavior.

[Excedrin]

Why?

1. Kast seems to have dropped a lot of minor "I like your post, good job!" pats on the back to a lot of people (to me #42, Plum #53, Sigma #102, KeelieRavenWolf #137, Locke Lamora #173, and even Rising (multiple cases of "Rising is a townie-just bad at logic" #102, #120, #140, #143 etc)) looks like buddying.
2. Kast has spent far too much time/energy/words arguing with Rising over a "who cares?" kind of point
3. Dry-fit looked like an easy target considering Rising and sigma had posted suspicion of him before Kast posted his:

#168
This isn't extremely strong, but I think it's the clearest thing I've seen so far and is sufficient for a vote. It is less ideal since two others have expressed suspicion of Dry-Fit (although Rising also kinda jumped on leads I dropped). This also wasn't exactly a trap set for Dry-fit specifically; I think he could easily have responded with similar content but changed his tone and I would probably be fine with it. His tone makes me suspect the response that he did give.

Extremely weak "well, I guess I'll vote here, maybe he's scum." Really? Tone is good enough after all the BS you've spewed about logic? Alright then.
4. It's OK to not have a clear top suspect on day 1, but that Kast has weighed in with so many "neutral/slightly scummy" kinds of reads seems like an attempt to avoid scrutiny after a mislynch. His lack of a vote seems very different to me from Rosso Carne's lack of a vote, as I stated in #148.

[Excedrin]

-Avoiding a no lynch by dropping the vote leader to 1 less vote (Excedrin).

Already stated, I miswrote. I believe that you were aware of my post #242 when you posted this since you were clearly aware of post #244 and post #245. So, why are you acting like that's the only reason I stated?

You like to count Rosso's "invisible" vote, yet you choose to discount Rising's actual vote and Sigma's "invisible" vote.

#167
I'm eager again, at the moment, just so you know (and so you won't speculate about this in the future). I won't have Dry-fit as the lynch for today.

This is why I discount Rising's actual vote. This is why I believe the choice between Dry-fit and Papa Zito is a false dilemma.

[Excedrin]

Papa Zito, did you miss my post #237 where I unvoted and voted for Kast or did I screw something up so that my vote somehow doesn't count?

refusing to vote and insisting on only hammering a randomly selected player but refusing to do anything to get others to vote for that player or try to determine if that player is scum.

This is blatant misrepresentation.

2. Kast has spent far too much time/energy/words arguing with Rising over a "who cares?" kind of point

-Has this been at expense of not participating in other capacities?
-How is this indicative of alignment?

It is unfortunate that the town as a whole is not active enough that the Porkens/Excedrin duo has had undue control of discussion by virtue of placing weak/reasonless votes that they undoubtedly will not be held accountable for.

So, Porkens/Excedrin duo has had undue control of discussion and that's scummy. But Kast/Rising duo has posted huge pointless discussions that prevent and derail discussion and that's not scummy?

-Okay, then I'll move you from 1 bad reason to no reason at all. It is telling that instead of showing another reason, you just complain that your reason to not lynch me should be ignored.

What? Are you intentionally trying to confuse?

-Why do you ignore Sigma's stated intention to vote?

sigma has voted for a lurker. He's stated that he will continue to research Papa Zito and Dry-fit. He has not stated willingness to vote beyond that.

-Why do you ignore my main counterpoint?

According to you, I have no reasons to vote you, so I'm not sure what your main counterpoint is.

[Excedrin]

refusing to vote and insisting on only hammering a randomly selected player but refusing to do anything to get others to vote for that player or try to determine if that player is scum.

This is blatant misrepresentation.

Point out what is misrepresented.
He will not vote for anyone.

You interpret this as "will not" vs actual meaning of "I'm currently not voting." I can be certain of Rosso's actual meaning here because, to hammer, he has to vote, and he has stated that he will vote for you. It's in scumKast's favor to plant this misconception, I'm not sure why townKast would do this.

He will hammer a player who he selected for either no reason

In that post he gave a reason.

equivalent to no reason (colloquially a "random" player).

In this post he says he won't share his reason(s). That's not the same as random.

He refuses to do anything to get others to vote for that player.

Question asked was "Ready to reveal yet?" and his answer was "nah." How can you go from "nah" to the BS you said?

He refuses to try and determine if the player is scum.

You assume that because he hasn't responded with a HUGE POST like this one, that he's "refusing to try."

2. Kast has spent far too much time/energy/words arguing with Rising over a "who cares?" kind of point

-Has this been at expense of not participating in other capacities?
-How is this indicative of alignment?

It is unfortunate that the town as a whole is not active enough that the Porkens/Excedrin duo has had undue control of discussion by virtue of placing weak/reasonless votes that they undoubtedly will not be held accountable for.

So, Porkens/Excedrin duo has had undue control of discussion and that's scummy. But Kast/Rising duo has posted huge pointless discussions that prevent and derail discussion and that's not scummy?

Porkens+Excedrin's votes determined Zito as a candidate to be lynched. Now you are attempting to make Kast another candidate immediately prior to deadline with

no reasons

. Two players determining both lynch candidates is undue control. You are blatantly misrepresenting when you claim that I labelled that as scummy. I labelled it as unfortunate; it is a bad idea for town to let that happen. It is much more a failing of the town than anything either of you did.

Alright, it was unfortunate. I guess it was an unfortunate-tell. Fortunately, your reaction to my vote are to support the false dilemma that I originally objected to and to repeat "no reasons" which is absurd(ly scummy).

Kast/Rising posting walls of text that other players chose to not read derails discussion how? Despite the walls of text, remind me which players have been actively engaging others and drawing them back into the game and while raising new points to consider and analyzing the information available and the responses of other players.

Why would you knowingly post huge posts (that aren't useful anyway) that nobody's going to read? You definitely knew that some of your posts were "non-essential" (aka: does nothing to find scum).

Plum pointed this out in #119 and you replied:

#120
-Yes, I do get easily sidetracked in non-essential arguments. I don't think it detracts from me looking at other players.

#135
I'm debating you because I enjoy arguing...

Both posts came before #143 and #147. which each inspired huge responses from Rising.

Your discussion with Rising contributed to town's unfortunate lack of posting. You knew that your sidetrack in a non-essential argument would lead nowhere despite taking effort to attempt to wade thru (nevermind replying). That is how it's indicative of alignment.

You spent a lot of words to come up with "Rising is town."

You can contrast with Rosso who says players should not discuss or give reasons for anything. Rosso actually discourages discussion.

I can see how you'd think that. But Rosso Carne is just terse. Your method of discouraging discussion is subtler and you can later point at it and say, "look at how active I've been."

-Okay, then I'll move you from 1 bad reason to

no reason

at all. It is telling that instead of showing another reason, you just complain that your reason to not lynch me should be ignored.

What? Are you intentionally trying to confuse?

To be clear, does this mean you have

no reasons

to provide?

Are you admitting that you intend to confuse?
Your "no reasons" mantra is relaxing.

sigma has voted for a lurker. He's stated that he will continue to research Papa Zito and Dry-fit. He has not stated willingness to vote beyond that.

False. Sigma has been a supporter of Zito AND Dry-Fit as lynch candidates for most of the day. In the post you quoted, he clearly states that he agrees with kmd and will vote pick between Zito and Dry-Fit. His research is to decide which of those two is better to lynch.

Lets have a closer look at sigma, then you can elaborate how he's supported both Zito AND Dry-fit lynches today.

sigma's votes with reasons:
#21 Dry-fit: RVS
#33 Kmd4390: found scum on page 2, too early
#91 Porkens: didn't answer question/lurking
#93 Locke Lamora: questions / no opinions
#142 KeelieRavenWolf: lurking

#130
After a few pages, I'm beginning to come around a little bit on KMD's argument on Zito.

#144
KMD has made a valid point about Zito's lack of scum-hunting which I agree with. His earlier arguments were instigating. I've already said I disagreed with that somewhat, and that's as good a reason as any to vote that early. So, 'I'm coming around' mainly refers to the lack of scumhunting pointed out by KMD.

#162
I'm a little concerned about dry-fit. Here's what he's done so far:

1. Scumhunting/attacking me.
2. Defend himself from Rising attacks.
3. Respond to Kast questioning.

I have an obvious bias because he's voting me, and I'd like to get others' reads on Dry-fit -- any takers?

I contend that sigma has also stated no strong opinions on anyone who's actually playing. I can't find any statement by sigma like, "I'm willing to lynch X" except for his statement to lynch KeelieRavenWolf for lurking.

-Why do you ignore my main counterpoint?

According to you, I have no reasons to vote you, so I'm not sure what your main counterpoint is.

It is not a counterpoint to a reason for voting me, so your argument is invalid. It is a counterpoint to your inaccurate representation of the game state with respect to which players are valid candidates for being lynched.

My eyes glazed over long ago. I have no idea what you're saying here. Is anyone else reading this far?

Altogether, there are 5(6 counting you but your position has been inconsistent) players willing to lynch Zito, 3 players willing to lynch Dry-Fit, and 3 players willing to lynch Kast. Everyone except for Rosso appears willing to lynch anyone rather than no lynch.

My position hasn't been inconsistent. I voted Papa Zito pretty early and when I switched to you I stated that I'm still willing to change my vote in order to lynch Papa Zito (or sigma).
Since Rising isn't willing to lynch Dry-fit, who else are you counting here?

[Excedrin]

In general you are being very inconsistent and exhibiting signs of

confirmation bias

.

That sounds like SCIENCE, please elaborate on this.

given that [Rosso Carne] directly stated that players should NOT share or discuss reasons and should JUST vote, that seems impossible to rationally deny

Where did Rosso Carne state that anyone else should play like him? Why do you continue to misrepresent him?

(8)-To be clear, we agree that discouraging discussion is anti-town. That said, please explain how you determined that my posts have discouraged discussion.

I strongly disagree and believe that the posting record reflects that I have generated a great deal of discussion, probably more than any other player. While there may be some players who dislike reading through long posts, and some players who are discouraged to see multiple pages of posts to go through, I think it is a huge misrepresentation to claim that this effect has been greater or even anywhere near the amount of game relevant discussion that I have generated by directly engaging other players, pushing other players to share their thoughts, sharing my thoughts, and providing information and analysis of all game related points thus far.

Posting lots of words is not generating a great deal of discussion.

(9)-To be clear, no I am not intending to confuse. It looks like your confusion results from your attempt to avoid my point. Please address it now. If you have a reason FOR thinking I am scum, please share it.

Already shared reasons.
1. buddying
2. knowingly derailing the thread
3. extremely weak case on Dry-fit
4. weakly held opinions / suspicions
5. dismissive response to my case "no reasons"/"negative reasons", "confirmation bias", etc

(10)-

lol english, was re: sigma's posts

The posts that I quoted indicate weakly stated suspicions, vaguely hinting that someone might be cause for "concern" is scummy.

(11)-Your response to my response fallaciously combines two independent and separate points as though they are the same.

You claimed that you have reasons for voting for me, but actually did not have any.

Ah, I understand now. Your opinion is: a vote without reasons stated in that post means that the player voting had no reasons. Ok, good luck with that.

[Excedrin]

-If a player says they have a reason to vote and the reason is actually a reason to NOT vote, then that is NOT a reason. (Exc)

lolwut

-So to be clear, you are not interested in seeing whether people actually posted more (overall were encouraged) as a result of my posts and don't care to defend your claim that people posted less (overall were discouraged) as a result of my posts?

It's impossible to prove some hypothetical scenario that people would have posted less or more if your posts didn't exist, so yea, I have no interest in this. Asking this is more derailing.

Your response here vaguely hints that Sigma is scummy. From your PoV, you are knowingly engaging in what you define as scummy behavior. Why are you doing this? Please be consistent

1) I'm not vaguely hinting at anything, sigma is probably scum. sigma should be lynched.
2) I'm not inconsistent. Apparently you assume that because I haven't posted my thoughts about every other player in the game, I haven't applied the same criteria to them that I have to you. That is a mistaken assumption.

Kast writes a lot but to dismiss what he's saying as tl;dr is terrible.

FTR, I've read everything he's posted. A lot of it is overly verbose.

I'm particularly dubious of Excedrin's willingness to follow [Porkens'] suspicions.

These are not chronological:

1. Rosso Carne posted his desire to hammer Kast.
   
2. some players asked for reasons, he didn't provide them
   
3. I looked at Kast in more detail to attempt to figure out for myself what Rosso Carne saw
   
4. Porkens revealed his info and plan and voted for Kast
   
5. Kmd4390 urged people to vote for 3 options
   
6. Kmd4390 dropped one option (Kast) while saying he's willing to vote Kast if it's role related.
   
7. I objected to the false dilemma of Papa Zito or Dry-fit and voted Kast because:
   • there's merit to Rosso Carne's suspicion of Kast that anyone can find by reading
     
   • I don't like the Papa Zito wagon
     
   • The vote count will now more accurately reflect Day 1 lynch possibilities, except that Rosso Carne's vote is invisible

If you still think that I'm following, that's fine. I believe that I've put forth a good effort to find scum. My 1st vote for Papa Zito and 2nd vote for Kast were both after Porkens, but it's coincidence. My reasons for 1st vote and 2nd vote are completely different, I didn't consider that anyone would think that I was making a habit out of following Porkens.

---

Papa Zito, note that your reason to lynch Locke Lamora applies to sigma. Also note that sigma's old suspicion of Locke Lamora (from #93) seems to have returned after your post #249.

Plum, why so quiet? Has my explanation of my thought process and my reasons to lynch Kast helped you to see where I'm coming from? Please share your perspective.

[Excedrin]

SpyreX, Porkens vote is on Papa Zito

Looks like Kast lynch isn't happening. Oh well, I tried.

Vote: Papa Zito

Papa Zito (5) - Plum, Kmd4390, Locke Lamora, Porkens, Excedrin
Dry-fit (2) - Rising, Kast
Locke Lamora (2) - Papa Zito, sigma

Papa Zito is at L-2.

Where's Plum, Rising, Kmd4390?

[Excedrin]

Ah I didn't read the question in #272 as directed at me. Papa Zito said that Locke Lamora appeared to understand Papa Zito's stance for most of the game but then "allowed himself to be "convinced" to vote me." I'm asserting that your agreement with Kmd4390's assertion that Papa Zito wasn't scumhunting is the same sort of thing.

I still haven't seen a good case for Zito other than that he's the vote leader at this point. Zito is not a good choice for a lynch. Where's the case?

What about Kmd4390's argument that you liked back in #130?

sigma, could you take a look at #148 and answer the stuff at the bottom re: KeelieRavenWolf and Kmd4390? (It wasn't clear that it was directed at you).

[Excedrin]

Kast, could you summarize the cast against Dry Fit please?

This would help KeelieRavenWolf and others, I'm sure. Thanks in advance.

[Excedrin]

Are you trying to imply that it's likely that two or three out of {Plum, Kmd4390, Locke Lamora} are scum? Well, a quick read of you in iso shows that you've been fairly neutral towards Kmd, same with me, and also Locke, whereas for almost the whole game you've been on Zito for an early-game reason later reinforced by a meta read. Things don't line up here. I don't understand what reservations you have with a Zito lynch or how you developed said reservations mentioned in your Post #242.

This is a reasonable point. I'd bet it's more like 1.37 not-town in that set. Maybe 2 if you don't mind the distinction between scum and not-town. How many do you think? If I said the line for not-town was 1.5, would you take over or under?

Have I expressed a neutral (or town, or scum) read of Plum, Kmd4390 or Locke Lamora anywhere?

[Excedrin]

No point in talking about those 3 players right now. Consider post #297 to be Excedrin-is-a-moron post number 2 (or 23 or whatever)). Good answer though.

Why did you think that wagon was so likely scum-driven?

I'm not sure if "scum-driven" is the right choice of words. I started to think that Papa Zito was town and didn't like posts like #172 and #173

What do you say to Keelie and the new-borne wagon on her?

KeelieRavenWolf wagon sucks because she's almost certainly town. KeelieRavenWolf vs Papa Zito is another false dilemma. Look at the people on that wagon (Porkens, sigma, Papa Zito, Plum), and consider that I've been accused of following Porkens. sigma is anti-lurker, Papa Zito is mashing his ESC key and hoping he has enough fuel and Plum has stated opposition to policy lynches. Not sure what to make of that. Oh yea, I'll prob be joining you tomorrow, hooray for hypocrisy!

I guess it's time to abandon all hope (not that I had much) of a KeelieRavenWolf replacement. After my d1 Kast lynch hopes have been shattered... I'm going to need another beer 4 sho.

#159
Jelly, for goodness' sake SHOW UP. Though I dislike Sigma's willingness to turn and lynch lurkers at this point. I generally avoid policy lynches because I still find that going after actual scummy players is better for the Town.

I guess that you agree with me?

#159
Yes. From what I've heard about Zito, he's a pretty decent player. Not the sort whose suspicions basically boil down to "OMGUS, and yes that's a legit scumtell because the early-stage votes are on me, a Townie". hat is lack of scumhunting or interest in scumhunting and that's a major effective scumtell in my book.

If only Papa Zito would have posted #249 back when he posted #181 right?

SpyreX sup? how's things? The act of retrieving a jettisoned player is a night action. Since Porkens will presumably be floating around in space this night or on the start of day 2, is it possible to retrieve him as tonight's night action?

[Excedrin]

Excedrin, why do you think I want to lynch Kast?

Doesn't everyone want to lynch scum?
I don't think you necessarily "want to lynch"; I said "willing to lynch" based on the following:

#188
If it's role-related, I'm more than happy to switch to Kast

#190
If Porkens comes in with info on Kast, I'm willing to follow.

And what false dillema did I set up? I looked at the vote count and told anyone not voting or voting alone to change their vote. It's common sense with a deadline coming up.

The vote count was deceptive since:
Rising has his vote on Dry-fit but doesn't want Dry-fit lynched
Rosso Carne doesn't have his vote on Kast but does want Kast lynched

Excedrin, I dropped Kast from the list of possible lynches because he only had one vote. Obviously, if Porkens had role-related info on him (I didn't expect him to btw), I'd have been willing to run him up.

Ok, I've explained that in effect he had 2 votes despite what the vote count shows and likewise Dry-fit had 1. I suppose that technically, what the vote count showed is the absolute truth since if Rising and Rosso Carne don't post again that's how it will be at deadline, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

How can you possibly get an 'Almost Certain Town' read on someone who's posted 5 times?

Is this a theory question? In theory, a player could be a daycop/mason/similar, then it doesn't matter how many times they've posted.
In KeelieRavenWolf's specific case, my read is more about how people have reacted to her posts (and lack of posts) than what she's said. Call it gut, I'm probably not going to be able to pull out specific instances of things that seem obvtown from KeelieRavenWolf in this case.

So, policy lynchers, how likely is it that KeelieRavenWolf is scum?

[Excedrin]

can you at least give us some examples of how people have reacted to KRW that give you that pro-town read?

I don't think she's pro-town. She's hardly playing, posted blatant AtE and a fluffy 1st post serious vote. It's mostly that she's an extremely easy/safe lynch target. It's like your questions to Kast seem to indicate, we learn little from this lynch.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
To be clear:
You are saying that you think KRW is almost certainly town, not because she herself has been pro-town, but because the people voting her are doing so in a very anti-town manner or doing so for anti-town reasons?

Is "my support for this lynch probably won't be scrutinized very much if KeelieRavenWolf is town" an anti-town manner or reason?

Is being pro-town ever enough to decide that someone is actually town or not?

I'm not sure. As I said, it'd be difficult to dig thru my subconscious and turn a lot of vague insubstantial stuff into something solid. I certainly don't have a breakdown of how each player's utility and lynch information compares.

Also, KeelieRavenWolf's lynch proves that Papa Zito and Dry-fit (and Kast if it's role-related) were not the only options.

[Excedrin]

Kast, yea, agree with everything you said in 314. Also agree with "I think the outrage against KRW..." bit in your prev post.

Semi-related, I finished the game the other day, Papa Zito is correct that Mmrnmhrm isn't encountered in story mode (at least, I never found them). Since at some point they merge with another race into a new race blah blah.... it's flavor, her claim seems believable to me. It's at least as good as Papa Zito's.

Plum, what is there to think about regarding her claim? It kinda changes nothing.

[Excedrin]

The Ur-Quan go exploring and find this race, the Dnyarri, that enslaves the Ur-Quan via mind control, then they use the Ur-Quan to enslave or kill all the rest of the sentient races. The Ur-Quan finally figure out how to kill the Dynarri and afterwards they decide that, to avoid being enslaved again, they should enslave all other races. There's another branch of Ur-Quan (Kor-Ah) who think that they should kill all other races. So since the 1st group is like "well, maybe we're wrong" they allow the Kor-Ah to exist and have this conflict.

So when the Ur-Quan enslaves a race, the slave race either becomes a "battle thrall" or "fallow slave." The 1st case, they help the Ur-Quan explore space and enslave any other races they find and 2nd case they put up an impenetrable force shield (the slave shield) around the race's home planet and strip them of technology (and possibly history/culture).

I have no idea about Decker, except that Star Control definitely rips off Startrek (and a lot of other stuff) for the in-game human race. So, that they would have modeled a human captain after a Startrek character as a maverick seems likely.

[Excedrin]

Wait, deadline is tomorrow night, isn't it? I was thinking tonight.

Unvote, Vote Papa Zito

We still have time!

I'm always online, but yea, still some time left.

[Excedrin]

Hey, Rising is back.

It's flavor, I don't think it's a great idea to try to read too much into it.

Survivor related speculation seems reasonable but isn't there an easy way to solve that? I mean, wouldn't she just claim survivor if she was?

[Excedrin]

sigma, that depends, if the options were between:
A: potentially scum, claimed town
B: pro-town, claimed survivor

then I'd prefer lynching A (presuming that I didn't agree with whatever reason people had for lynching B).

In this case we have two players who are slightly scummy and have weak cases against them, choosing between policy and "seems like he usually scumhunts more" isn't a tough decision, it doesn't really matter which one is lynched.

It's possible to speculate that the bit where Papa Zito noticed KeelieRavenWolf mentioned survival 3 times in one post is a case of scum trying to convince people that she's survivor to save himself.

There's really nothing left to discuss at this point. Speculating about claims and flavor seems pointless to me.

Vote: KeelieRavenWolf

I'll switch back if anyone wants me to, I'll be here right up to 10:30.

[Excedrin]

Oh hey, L-1 again.

[Excedrin]

Hey Rising, sorry to ask this now, but did this post by Porkens, where he mentions his plan of destroying his ship because it's a hierarchy ship do anything to change your suspicion of him?

[Excedrin]

Everybody else; should we discuss openly which one of us should pick up these pilots? Not knowing would make it tougher for scum to target the right ship, but we cannot risk loosing pilots because everyone thought someone else would pick 'em up.

Everyone who's town should attempt to pick up jettisoned players (it's mentioned in the 1st post that if A, B, C all attempt to pick up D, then one of A,B,C randomly succeeds).

I also think the scum tried to kill me or porkens and failed because the jettison took place before the kill action.

So you think that for "kill" to succeed, the targeted player has to be in their ship?

[Excedrin]

sigma's claim is believable to me, I have no doubt that 2 instances of town guys on bad guy ships is possible, because Rosso Carne is on a red ship.

I learned some other stuff prev night as well, I'm not sure if I should reveal everything. Honestly, since I'm such an idiot, I'd rather have someone smarter let me know what to do here.

[Excedrin]

- Kast is Pkunk
- Excedrin is a really big idiot. I don't see how that proves what he is either/or.

Apparently he can investigate?

Lulz, confirmed. (Not commenting on strikethru part, stop role/ability fishing).

The Pkunk insult their targets because, being such cosmically wonderful and happy creatures, they have to work themselves up to fight anyone. The in-game effect is that insults are how they recharge their ship's energy.

I thought they insult themselves for that reason. Anyway, what I know of Kast's ability fits.

My target receives mod confirmation of both flavor and function. The flavor alone is enough to confirm my race (and therefore my affiliation). From a mafia game mechanic PoV, it also suggests itself as a townie power since it reveals me to my target, inherently drawing attention.

Agreed. I'm not certain what Kast's ability does, but I know that the flavor indicates that he is definitely Pkunk.

If you use the Thraddash ship in super-melee, the afterburner can be used to evade stuff. So flavor regarding sigma seems reasonable.

b) It's fair to wonder where it went, but the WIFOM that you may have submitted no kill is still there.

There's probably a lot of possible explanations (including sigma nokill), but we have 4 players who haven't posted yet.

Vote: Rosso Carne

[Excedrin]

Sigma could be scum-gambiting here, in order to be picked up by a town or by his scumbuddies. I fully believe that he has *some* ability to interact with his ship-mates.

Why doesn't this apply to Porkens too?

If the ability to interact in some way with ship-mates is possible at all in the game, that sigma claimed this kind of ability and Porkens hasn't doesn't really indicate alignment of either of you. Am I missing something?

[Excedrin]

Dry-fit, did you do anything or learn anything from night?

Is it bad to ask for a full claim here?

Since you're VUX and you're on a VUX ship, you can use racial abilities, lots of speculation possible here.

Admiral ZEX was a traitor in game, he helped Zelnick despite being hierarchy, then died after Zelnick delivered his end of a deal.

[Excedrin]

Wait, that's investigate, not flip. So you could actually be a miller. Does your Role PM specifically say that you are a miller?

Meh. I doubt scum would come out this easily.

Unvote, Vote Kast

Kast's actions prev night confirm to me that he's Pkunk. There's something unrelated to Kast's ability that I haven't revealed that doubly confirms that he is Pkunk. If it's possible, I'd rather not reveal it at all.

Basically this is a vote on a confirmed Alliance.

[Excedrin]

I think that it's known how I felt on day 1 about Kast. I think that his posts are "correct" in that they contain logic, explain his point of view, but they're nitpicky/dense etc. So, it's his playstyle. I dislike his style. But he's confirmed town to me.

[Excedrin]

sigma's claim is believable to me, I have no doubt that 2 instances of town guys on bad guy ships is possible, because Rosso Carne is on a red ship.

Why does one - that you know of another on a red-text ship - indicate that multiple Townies-on-scumships are possible.

The context of that was that someone said, "You expect us to believe that there's 2?"

It's possible that sigma or Porkens is scum who jettisoned to try to get onto a ship with Alliance players. The motivation they've stated for their actions could be an Alliance motivation. I think that applies to sigma slightly more than it does to Porkens, after considering sigma's race and ability claim.

Dry-fit claimed his Hierarchy race and ship strangely (because of circumstances), but it's also

possible

that he's town. (Didn't know about Dry-fit when I wrote the previous quote, but it adds to the sample.)

There may be other alliance players who are on Hierarchy ships who didn't think that it was a good idea to jettison like Porkens. It's possible that Rosso Carne is in this category, but I believe it's unlikely due to info that I haven't revealed. If Rosso Carne is going to be modkilled, then there's no reason to reveal it.

As a note, I think that if there's around 5 red ships, then they're almost all accounted for.

But I doubt even three Townies started out on red-text ships, including any possible Miller, so I want to lynch him first hopefully see about Porkens and sigma tomorrow if they haven't asphyxiated or anything.

They'll die unless someone picks them up during the next night. Kast says it's possibly a bad idea to pick them up, I follow his reasoning but I'm undecided. If sigma isn't lying about his claim, then he can confirm anyone who picks him up. If he is lying, he probably takes over their ship and/or kills them, but won't that be obvious?

[Excedrin]

Rising, all the logic if A and B blah blah really obscures stuff after a while, I think this might be the bit that you're missing:

#439
If both are town, then townies shouldn't know your affiliation and should at best be hesitant to pick you up. The claimed circumstances, that scum want to board someone else's ship, inclines townies against picking up either of you.

[Excedrin]

You're aware of sigma's claimed race and ability right?

1) sigma may be lying about his race and ability, but may have an ability that interacts with players on the same ship
2) sigma may be telling the truth about his race and ability

If either of those is true, then there's an ability that interacts with players on the same ship. If there's at least one instance of that, then it's possible that someone with Hierarchy alignment has a similar ability with unknown negative effects.

Even disregarding sigma's claimed ability, that there's a mechanic for jettisoning and picking up players implies that abilities that interact with shipmates exist. So, if there's a Hierarchy aligned player with abilities like that, then jettisoning and trying to get picked up might be a good gambit (I'm not sure how else a Hierarchy aligned player could get on an Alliance aligned player's ship).

I think that if you ignore the idea that scum might want to get on Alliance ships then yea, none of what Kast said makes sense.

[Excedrin]

If people think there are going to be 5 red ships, as seems to be the case, then they are all accounted for (not that difficult to count, Excedrin).

Counting is hard, lets go shopping!

Is Porkens still your 2nd suspect?

[Excedrin]

It seems unlikely that Dry-fit would claim as he did if he was scum. Based on flavor, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a non-Alliance win condition or if his win condition changes based on day or some game event. That, combined with his inactivity on day 2 makes him an OK 2nd choice.

That said, I want Rosso Carne lynched far more than I want anyone else lynched. If ending the day before deadline results in Dry-fit lynch and Rosso Carne modkill, I'd be OK with switching to Dry-fit.

Rising, what do you think about Dry-fit today? Is he a good lynch?

Papa Zito, do you still think that Locke Lamora is scum? What about Kmd4390 or Porkens?

[Excedrin]

Lack of ship destruction (aside from 2 who jettisoned) combined with Dry-Fit's claim is weird (why wouldn't he kill if he was scum? WIFOM, but I still don't know why). Obviously there's stuff that could explain that (for example, he may have targetted sigma (or Porkens but that's unlikely since everyone knew Porkens was planning on jettisoning)).

If he's telling the truth about his role and ship, it might reveal some information about how scum kill (destroy ship first). I agree with what he said in #535 regarding jettison.

That he didn't roleblock when he could have seems horrible from a strategy point of view, not wanting to use energy is a bad excuse when he wouldn't know (as town) if he's going to live thru the night. It seems possible that he didn't block because he didn't want to clear anyone.

It bugs me that with his "I couldn't post because I was busy" excuse (which is usually OK), he apparently split immediately after his post #468 and couldn't answer my questions in #469 that I posted 5 minutes after. I mean, it's possible that he posted and left but kinda sucks either way. I'm treating that as null.

So yea, if we get 2 for 1, I'll hammer Dry-Fit, if not, then I'd be ok with lynching RC and leaving Dry-fit alive, possibly with a publicly chosen vig or roleblock target.

Since we're getting close to the end of the day: Kast, excluding Dry-fit and Rosso Carne, who's your 3rd suspect? If you don't want to answer this, it's fine. Also, I realized why I was uncertain about your ability (effects

are

known to target, but can you imagine a case where, in a more traditional theme game, something like your ability might behave differently than expected?). Also, take a 2nd look at post #425 if I don't make it thru night.

[Excedrin]

Alright, I think that everything is sorted out, I don't think I'm forgetting anything, I hope that red ship is correlated to hierarchy align in both of these...

Vote: Dry-fit

[Excedrin]

Kmd4390 is on an Ur-Quan Dreadnought.

I'm ready to full claim whenever, I assume this is lylo.

[Excedrin]

Alright, I'm captain FipPat, Zoq-Fot-Pik and I'm on an Umgah Drone. Flavor says that the Ur-Quan and Kor-Ah have destroyed most of my colonies and now my home world is in danger, even the Frungy tournaments are cancelled so I stole a ship and headed out to help end it.

Captain FipPat has an ability to scan and get ship blueprints. The Umgah Drone started with 2 units of energy. It has 2 abilities, one is a racial ability that allows someone to send anonymous messages to anyone in the game (Umgah hyperwave broadcaster). The other is an antimatter cone that nullifies actions taken by the target. Each ability costs 1 energy per use.

On night 1, I scanned and nullified Rosso Carne, I was also targetted by Kast, I knew that Kast wasn't Umgah because I have the Umgah hyperwave broadcaster. I was confused about Kast's ability because I lost one unit of energy and I got the result of what RC's ship was. That there was no kill and I nullified RC made me suspect that he was hierarchy.

On night 2, I scanned Kmd4390 and attempted to nullify Locke Lamora, but I had zero energy so the nullify didn't happen. Scan result said I found an Ur-Quan Dreadnought.

I left a subtle crumb about my race here #256 (In game, the Zoq-Fot-Pik has some dialog that goes, "Unfortunately (something bad happened) but Fortunately (it wasn't total destruction)")

[Excedrin]

-Excedrin claimed Umgah (Hierarchy).

Uh, no, I'm Zoq-Fot-Pik (alliance) on an Umgah (hierarchy) ship.

I'm also a bit confused by Excedrin's claim. He says the Hyperwave Broadcaster lets him send an anonymous message to anyone and nullify, but then he says he has an ability to scan and nullify.
-Is the scanning supposed to be equivalent to the communicating?
-I don't see anything in the claim explaining why Excedrin can use 2 active abilities in 1 night. Why is this possible?
-It also sounds like he is claiming to think that my ability let him use his two abilities with only 1 energy cost. Is this what you are trying to say?

Given this pilot in this ship, I have:
1. pilot ability (scan)
2. ship ability (nullify)
3. racial ship ability (broadcast) (that I can't use)

scan doesn't use energy. nullify and broadcast each use 1 energy.
On night 1, I got a scan result and a nullify result (I assume that, because I lost energy, nullify worked). This is why I was confused about your roleblock ability, because I expected no results. Flavor for the reason why I was not blocked was due to the simplicity of my ship. After night one I had 1 unit of energy left.
On night 2, I got a scan result only, pm says I went to nullify and noticed no energy.

nullify is related to the anti-matter cone. It's not related to the broadcaster at all.

If nobody else targetted Kmd4390, I'm not sure what explains his claimed result of +3 energy. My scan should have given him zero energy since it doesn't use energy.

-Why did you pick your claimed night targets?

I picked LL for block because you were presumably not going to block him. I didn't want to block the same target, that was based on how I read your response to my question regarding your 3rd suspect.

-Why do you claim to know what KMD's ship is, but you only told us that RC's ship was red?

I knew what RC's ship was too, there's not much point in saying it now. I didn't reveal it yesterday because I expected RC to explain instead of not showing up at all.

[Excedrin]

Okay, my mistake. I misread your claim. So you are claiming 1 Active Pilot Ability and 2 Active Ship Abilities. You claim you used 2 abilities per night. How is this possible?

First, I decided what I wanted to do, then I sent a pm to SpyreX.

-If you really didn't use a racial ability (hyperwave broadcaster), then you would not have been informed that I have a roleblocking ability. You would also not be informed any flavor on why my blocking did not affect you.

Apparently you didn't realize that my roleblock only works on Racial Abilities (perhaps N1 you only used a racial ability?)

Flavor for your ability was that it made me very mad, but that, due to simple ship, it didn't interfere with my results, I surmised that your ability was probably a roleblock.

I used 2 actions and got 2 results:
1. scan, result: Rosso Carne is on a red Yehat Terminator
2. nullify, result: -1 energy

[Excedrin]

Flavor for your ability was that it made me very mad, but that, due to simple ship, it didn't interfere with my results, I surmised that your ability was probably a roleblock.

Ah, I also thought that it was probably due to being a role blocker (nullify is basically roleblock) myself. I'm used to mechanics where role blockers are block immune, and I tried to hint at that in previous day here:

#544
Also, I realized why I was uncertain about your ability (effects are known to target, but can you imagine a case where, in a more traditional theme game, something like your ability might behave differently than expected?)

[Excedrin]

What the hell did scum do that uses 3 units?!?

I suspect our Shofixti friend used his Glory Device.

Kast claimed to have targeted Locke Lamora, I'd expect a suicide ability would be a racial ability. So, Kast's claimed insult-and-block racial abilities should have prevented this.

[Excedrin]

Excedrin

- has claimed Zoq-Fot-Pik. The ZFP can scan ships and get blueprints.
- has claimed an Umgah Drone. The claimed Umgah Drone can use its Caster to send messages and

anti-matter cone

to

RB

nullify

targets

players (it can be used to stop a player's action even if they're not the pilot of a ship).

minor correction, not that important, but just to keep flavor accurate. Also I have no idea why ZFP should be able to scan ships from a flavor point of view.

[Excedrin]

I'm speculating that a non-Shofixti on a Shofixti ship wouldn't be able to trigger suicide bomb.

Ships may possess:

P.) Passive abilities - These abilities require no choice and are always in use.
A.) Active abilities - You may choose one of these in a cycle. Each active ability is either (N)ight Action, (D)ay Action or an (A)any time action. Every Active ability a ship possesses has an energy value. You must have this much energy to perform the action.
R) Racial Abilities - These abilities are only active if you are the same race as the ship you are on. They may be A or P and follow the rules for them as detailed above.

[Excedrin]

The caster is a R.A ability (racial, active) of my ship.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
You can only use 1 Active Ability per night.

You're wrong about this. You can use 1 pilot ability per night and 1 ship ability per night.

Excedrin, your ability you claim to have used on Locke failed, right? Why so quick to assume Kast's was successful?

He didn't indicate anywhere that it wasn't successful.

[Excedrin]

Excedrin, your ability you claim to have used on Locke failed, right? Why so quick to assume Kast's was successful?

He didn't indicate anywhere that it wasn't successful.

And you assume it was even knowing that yours failed?

Since I knew that mine failed due to not having enough energy, I assumed that someone else's action explain would why I didn't have energy. If Kast's action failed because of lack of energy, it would be a pretty important detail for him to omit. So yea, I think it's reasonable to assume that it worked unless he stated that he knew it failed.

Ok, so mine is both racial and active. You're right then, it does make more sense as passive. Weird.

So you had to choose to activate it each night? Does it use any energy to activate?

[Excedrin]

Okay, Spyrex didn't want to clarify this one, but I'm comfortable going with what I understand of his clarification and it implies Excedrin is lying.

If he tried doing an action that requires more energy than he has, he should have been informed of that and been able to pick a different action.

This implies to me that he is lying about the roleblock.

I assume that you're talking about night 2.

At the start of night 2, I had 1 unit of energy remaining. After sending my scan and nullify targets, I was told a scan result and that nullify failed due to drained batteries and that I have no energy.

Presumably, if I somehow had 0 energy and attempted to use the anti-matter cone, I'd be told, "Hey, you can't use that." Since this particular ship has no abilities that cost 0 energy, there's no point in SpyreX giving me an option to chose some other ability.

What I want to know is, since nobody has claimed any sort of energy stealing ability, where did my missing energy go?

[Excedrin]

Alright, so, I thought that there was a chance that Kmd4390 was bussed with someone else or I was redirected or whatever. Since nobody has claimed that and I'm not lying about my results, I have to conclude that he's actually in an Ur-Quan Dread.

Vote: Kmd4390

I'm not sure how much I should read into the lack of hammer, since I haven't been at L-1 for very long. But, I'm not sure how Kast could be scum. If there's two, it would have to be Kmd4390 and Rising, unless Zito can swap people AND also kill. Sooooo signs point to one scum.

Also, Kmd4390's explanation before his vote isn't complete. The lack of a kill could be explained by Kast's death and reincarnation, which is consistent with what he wrote about doctors yesterday.

[Excedrin]

Alright, so, I thought that there was a chance that Kmd4390 was bussed with someone else or I was redirected or whatever. Since nobody has claimed that and I'm not lying about my results, I have to conclude that he's actually in an Ur-Quan Dread.

Vote: Kmd4390

If you're town, scum aren't going to tell us if they fucked with your result. Kast has info against you anyway though, so I doubt you're town.

Yea, Kast's "info" is pretty weak. It's weird that he's not busting out some if A and B then not C stuff to explain it.
It looks like his case is:
1. I could have been killed and reincarnated, explaining lack of death on night 1
2. Excedrin shouldn't have gotten mod confirmation of my ability
3. I must have blocked his racial ability and therefore prevented the kill (oops forgot about #1), since that would explain why he got mod confirmation of my ability

So, if there's 2 scum, Rising is confirmed town, Rising clears Papa Zito (based on Papa Zito's ability to swap players between ships), I clear Kast based on the idea that he is Pkunk because I know where the Umgah caster is, but unfortunately he blocked someone who's dead, so we don't have another person vouching for him.

Kmd4390 is on a ship that can absorb energy (but has no active abilities that use energy) that was targetted last night (by either Excedrin, Kast or Rising). Rising has no active abilities. Kast made a big deal about not being able to use 2 abilities in one night, but has also claimed only the broadcast / insult ability, so even aside from the message I got from him on n1, it seems unlikely that he's scum. So, if I targeted Kmd4390 and he absorbed the energy, then the ship I'm on would be capable of targeting 3 players in one night (Plum, Locke Lamora and Kmd4390).

One possibility is that Kmd4390's ship does have some ability to absorb energy and he thought he could prevent my scan from working, since he thought it was a ship based ability. There's nothing in SC2 about Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts that says they should have this.

I could include some wild speculation about there being a Chenjesu ship since Porkens flipped Chenjesu (that scum can use?), but I don't think it helps.

If KMD and I were scumbuddies, I would have hammered you when you were at L-1. That you're suspecting me in an unlikely scumpairing makes me FOS: Excedrin.

I wasn't suspecting you, I was saying that because you didn't hammer, it makes you obvtown, which makes me question the 2 scum idea.

What makes you think that, exactly? Is it only because he used that ability on you, and you're sure he's not an Umgah since you're in possession of the Umgah caster?

Yea, I basically have mod confirmation of his race. I suppose it's possible that he has some other ability that allows him to broadcast messages (and roleblock?). But the first scenario, that he's actually Pkunk and actually has this insult+rb ability seems more likely. That I got flavor saying what his ability does and he sees that as proof that I'm lying seems like he's trying to read things in a too-logical, too-precise manner.

Thematical is one part, at least for me. More important is his backtracking regarding Kast's insult power.

Where did I backtrack? The part I didn't want to reveal was that I have the Umgah broadcaster.

[Excedrin]

Zito's info that flavor doesn't support a Zoq-Fot-Pik scanner ability also inclines me to vote Excedrin.

I've played the entire game, I'd rather claim Supox or Orz or something than ZFP on an Umgah ship.

(Interestingly, the wiki on Zoq-Fot-Pik mentions that they provide the alliance with blueprints for their own ship; if Excedrin is false claiming, I'm guessing he used this as the basis for his claim).

Does this work too: if Excedrin is not false claiming, I'm guessing SpyreX used this as the basis for the ZFP racial ability.

Kmd4390's claim, of being on a ship that's basically kill immune, but has an active racial ability that he doesn't need to activate each night, and that has no other active abilities, seems like an actual fake claim to me.

[Excedrin]

EBWOP: Does this work too: if Excedrin is not false claiming, I'm guessing SpyreX used this as the basis for the ZFP

racial

pilot ability.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
Yes, it could work that Spyrex based a power on a wiki point. To be fair, on reading the wiki in isolation, I could believe that the ZFP provided blueprints on other ships and could find that plausible.

I don't think that this is where he got it. He has presumably played the game. All allied races provide their ship's blueprints to the Earthlings when they become allies.

But, regardless of where he got the idea to give the ZFP pilot the ability to scan ships, your statement had one possibility and not the other when they both seem equally likely.

However, I'm taking Zito's word on the flavor. I'm mostly discounting the possibility that Zito is scum. Given that you readily admitted ZFP with a scanner does not make flavor sense, I'm inclined to think it is a flavor mistake that Spyrex would not have made (similar to how KRW's flavor claim was a mistake that Spyrex would not have made).

Zito is confirmed town unless there's only one scum left.

I agree that KMD's role sounds bogus. Potentially gaining tons of energy but no way to use it doesn't sound that plausible. As claimed, he is equivalent to being vanilla. Actually, the biggest point I see in favor of lynching him instead of lynching you is that the lack of kills on N1 could indicate that I can successfully stop you from killing, whereas KMD might kill as a non-racial ship ability.

He's actually claimed kill immune vanilla, who's also immune to any ship related action (he can't be swapped by Zito's ability).

@Zito-
It may be worthwhile to swap either Rising or Myself with KMD tonight. If he is the final mafia and if he kills by a ship ability, that would presumably stop the kill or potentially prevent him from killing both yourself and Rising in one go. Another possibility, if you can send people to another ship, you could send Rising to my ship where any kill attempts would have to count on not triggering my reincarnation.

Obviously, do not confirm your intentions in thread. You may already be considering something similar, but if not, then do consider something along those lines.

Kmd4390 can't be swapped out of his ship.

[Excedrin]

Rising confirms Zito, Zito couldn't have killed prev night, Zito hasn't hammered. Pretty much as close to confirmed as possible.

[Excedrin]

My role is Lololo, Utwig and my ship is Utwig Jugger. I have batteries that let me have any amount of energy. If anyone targets me, I absorb whatever energy they use on me. I absorbed 3 units last night. I didn't absorb anything on Night 1.

I read this to mean, "scum tried to kill me and I'm still alive because I absorbed the energy." Since the action I used didn't use energy, Rising and Zito have both claimed that they didn't target Kmd4390, only Kast is left or Kmd4390 is lying about absorbing 3 units of energy. The Utwig Jugger in game has an absorption shield that renders it invincible while the shield is on, so it's possible that I read too much into his claim. Zito apparently interpreted it the same way with his Shofixti suicide bomb speculation.

Since nobody else has explained why I'd get a Ur-Quan dreadnought result for Kmd4390's ship (no claimed bus or redirect), Kmd4390 has to be lying unless Kast has some kind of incredibly powerful role that lets him broadcast Pkunk messages and cause me to see Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts in place of Utwig Juggers and drain energy and double kill.

[Excedrin]

That Kmd4390 said he thought "R.A" meant racial ability and that he never sent an action to SpyreX to activate it, but it's clearly not a passive ability and he claims a result (gained energy), needs more attention.

[Excedrin]

On my claim: I absorb whatever energy comes at me. Doesn't mean I'm immune to anything. I find it suspicious that Excedrin immediately jumped to me being a kill target like that. Excedrin, did your kill on me fail N1?

Why would you ask that? Anything to shift attention from your botched claim?
Note that Zito assumed the same thing.

Rising, yes, I was trying to start the game by pressuring Zito initially. I found his reaction to that legitimately scummy, so I suspected him.

With neither Rising or Zito hammering, Excedrin is scum unless Kast and myself are scum together. I know this to be false, so my vote isn't moving.

So you know that there's 2 scum?

Still no idea where the 3 energy came from. It's unclaimed, so it's either scum or dead players (or both) who targeted me.

We should figure out where this energy came from. If Rising and Zito are clear and Kmd4390's absorption shield doesn't imply invincibility (as it does in the game), then it didn't come from a kill attempt (since he'd be dead). So, it must have come from Plum, Locke Lamora or Kast. We should be able to find out from Rising whether Plum's ship had any ability that used energy. If Locke Lamora had something that used energy (aside from a suicide bomb), I'm not sure what it would be but it seems reasonable to assume that it wouldn't be 3 energy, since, as a small ship, his scout probably only had 2, like my drone. Kast has claimed not to have any active abilities that use energy.

Excedrin, you make no sense in assuming that because no one claimed to have targeted me with energy, no one did. Scum won't tell us exactly what they did. Dead players can't tell us exactly what we did. But since you are confirmed scum from my PoV, I know you are lying about your result.

I'm not lying, but the only way you're alliance is if the only non-confirmed town player has a really absurdly powerful set of abilities. It seems far more likely to me that my result is accurate, my lost energy was due to some sort of energy theft (perhaps scum is on a Chenjesu ship AND they can use the drain energy ability from SC2) that was intended to prevent a scan, and Kmd4390 is actually on an Ur-Quan Dreadnought who made 1 or both kills.

It doesn't look like the info about energy targeting me is going to come out, so I'm fine with a hammer.

Sure, a hammer results in scum win if there's 2 scum. Likewise, if there's 2 scum, it's you and Kast. Obviously you'd be fine with a hammer.

[Excedrin]

Nothing was "botched". I posted what I had.

The R.A vs R.P thing is pretty botched. Especially since you admitted that you thought "R.A" meant "Racial Ability."

Yeah, I assume 2 more scum. 3 scum is usually the case in a mini and one is dead.

Again, you are ignoring the possibility that scum targeted me. And didn't bother to tell us! Bastards!

No, I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying, who is scum if scum targetted you? From my perspective, there's nobody left, everyone's accounted for except Kast, and I don't see how Kast could be scum, unless he's something absurdly powerful (multi-kill, investigation tampering, energy draining in one night, with a previous non-anonymous message ability). Maybe in that case, it would make sense that there's 1 scum left.

[Excedrin]

Why do you exclude Kast? It seems inconsistent with your post yesterday:

#479
Kast is where he is because he can't possibly be scum unless Excedrin is

If you believe that I'm scum, it's odd that you'd switch to excluding Kast as a possible scumpartner.

Kast, I've explained why I chose the targets I chose, why did you decide to target Locke Lamora, after saying:

#550
I don't agree with everyone's suspicion of LL from D1. I don't like his lurking today. If either Dry-Fit OR RC is scum, I could easily see LL's behavior as scum who has mostly given up since his partners were completely lame.

This is the main reason why I chose Locke Lamora, figuring that if my nullify went thru, I'd possibly clear one of the players who was apparently least likely for you to target and possibly prevent a night kill. It seemed more likely to me, based on your post #550, that you'd block Kmd4390 or Rising.

[Excedrin]

That's a good point.

[Excedrin]

Yea, more focus on behavior and less on finding "mistakes" in flavor would be good. Kast's unvote was scummy, his behavior today seems different than his behavior earlier (more passive), and what Kmd4390 said seems to fit (it looks like he's trying to push the easy mislynch and win instead of bussing his partner). He also says that since there's proof that he can block me based on lack of kill and that I got flavor from SpyreX when I shouldn't have, that lynching Kmd4390 first makes sense, then he leaves his vote on me. All of that, plus Zito/Rising as (semi-)confirmed town, makes me question his race, it seems possible that he has some ability that lets him emulate other races.

That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up? Would that explain all 4 deaths without scum needing two kills?

From my perspective, scum submitted the following:
1 kill targetting Plum
1 kill targetting Locke Lamora
1 energy drain targetting Excedrin

Since that's only 3 actions, it's possible that each scum has a kill, but then there would have been a kill on the previous night, even if Kast was killed and reincarnated (unless scum nokilled on purpose).

On day 1, I asked SpyreX about whether it's possible to pick up players who you expect to be in space in the next phase, he said no, only if you know they're in space. So, I'm not sure how Plum's ability would work re: picking up LL, or even if it was possible whether it helps figure out scum's capabilities.

[Excedrin]

I am fine with lynching either KMD or Excedrin as I think they are the most probable remaining scum. However, I would prefer lynching the more probable scum of the two, which seems to be Excedrin.

How am I most probable?

There were a lot of claims and contradictory (and potentially contradictory) information flying around. I unvoted and revoted several times in response to new information and/or to give myself time to process that information.

What contradiction exactly? That I received enough flavor to guess that your ability blocks? You're reading too much into your PMs from SpyreX if this is your only reason to prefer my lynch to Kmd4390's.

@Zito-

That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up?

-Was this part of your plan as discussed with Plum?
-When you switch players, are they able to use Active Abilities after the switch?

@Lots of Deaths-
It is also possible that LL used a suicide attack which was not a Racial Ability.

This only makes sense if he killed Plum, if he targetted Kmd4390, that might explain 3 units of energy absorbed, but Kmd4390 should be dead if this was the case, based on his claim (that his absorption shield only absorbs energy but doesn't cause the ability/kill to fail, which doesn't fit with SC2 Jugger's in-game ability at all).

[Excedrin]

Yea, more focus on behavior and less on finding "mistakes" in flavor would be good.

How about more focus on definitive scumtells instead of BS?

I agree 100%, it's annoying if I get lynched (in lylo) based on flavor reasons instead of scumhunting or game mechanics reasons. If I knew it wasn't lylo, I'd have no problem being today's lynch, but one scum remaining seems unlikely.

Kast's unvote was scummy,

-Explain.

It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.

-This eagerness to jump on and agree with something Rising posted without explanation sounds like desperate scum.

This is the second time you've posted something that could apply to either align, and instead of saying "this could be desperate town" you say it's "desperate scum"; that's scummy. If it's lylo, I don't want the game to end with my lynch.

his behavior today seems different than his behavior earlier (more passive),

?Calling for someone's lynch is passive how?

Your game today has been lots of:
agreement with Zito on flavor
asking Mod for clarification
asking people for clarification of their claims

It looks like you're ignoring Kmd4390's behavior entirely.

He also says that since there's proof that he can block me based on lack of kill

This is false. Seriously reaching and twisting what I said. It is possible that I can block you. The lack of kill is not proof of that.

I agree that KMD's role sounds bogus. Potentially gaining tons of energy but no way to use it doesn't sound that plausible. As claimed, he is equivalent to being vanilla. Actually, the biggest point I see in favor of lynching him instead of lynching you is that the lack of kills on N1 could indicate that I can successfully stop you from killing, whereas KMD might kill as a non-racial ship ability.

Did I really twist this?

and that I got flavor from SpyreX when I shouldn't have,

This part is also not proof, but it is stronger indication that you are lying and is a more accurate portrayal of what I have posted.

I think it's weird that SpyreX has clarified this point for you according to your post:
"Okay...Spyrex sent me another clarification that he might or might not add flavor even if there was no roleblock."
And despite that, you're still listing it as a reason to lynch Excedrin.

All of these things make me consider that it's more likely that you're not Pkunk and you have some kind of ability to pretend to be Pkunk. I'd expect townKast to figure out what happens if Excedrin is telling the truth and compare that to what happens if I'm not. That there's no huge matrix of possible outcomes seems out of character.

[Excedrin]

Ex... If you're town, then you *know* that both Kast and Kmd are scumbuddies, because otherwise, you would already be dead. Therefore, you shouldn't pay much attention to Kmd's claim.

I don't know this because it's not certain that there's 2 scum. If there are 2 scum then, yes, it's Kmd4390 and Kast, but then I have to figure out how I got a message from mod that clearly indicates Kast is Pkunk.

If there's only one scum, then it made sense to figure out how Kmd4390's claim could be possible. If Plum picked up Locke Lamora and was then killed, then scum can have only one kill, prior to that idea, the possibility that Kmd4390 is town and my scan result was tampered with didn't seem likely because scum would need the ability to kill 2 targets in one night and there was no kill on night 1.

[Excedrin]

-I don't know why you keep pointing out that KMD's claimed 3 energy units is significant proof of anything. If you are trying to show that someone is not scum, assuming that the person is not scum is not valid.

Because it's something that others can see is impossible (unless I'm lying). His claim came before other claims, he didn't know if Papa Zito or Rising had targetted him, if either of them did, it would verify his claim. Nobody else has claimed to target him. He says that Kast is town. For him to stick to his story, I must have had a kill that killed (at least) Plum as well as some other ability with unknown results that targeted Kmd4390 that used 3 units of energy. So my persistence in pointing out his "3 energy units" claim has caused him to say that:
there's 2 scum, comprised of Excedrin + Papa Zito / Rising
which seems absurd.

I agree with you that KMD's claim sounds implausible. This balances against your own claim which is equally implausible. Fortunately, the two implausible roleclaims coincide with two players who are most likely to be scum (objectively due to direct contradiction).

How is my claim implausible? Because ZFP doesn't have radar dishes as heads in SC2?

It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.

This does not explain how it is scummy. You offer no discernment between this and a townie doing the same thing. Again, provide explanation of how this is scummy.

Ugh, this reminds me of day 1 Kast. I say, "It's typical scum behavior" and Kast says, "you didn't explain how it's scummy". Rising had a different take, I think it's simpler, as in, scum trying to score town cred by appearing to be a cautious townie, fearing hammer, etc. Town being cautious here by unvoting doesn't make sense, if there's 2 scum, then after townKast's initial vote, the game is (theoretically) over. townKast would have been actually cautious, and not cast his vote until after hearing from Papa Zito and Rising instead of feigned caution (casting the vote and then unvoting).

This is the second time you've posted something that could apply to either align, and instead of saying "this could be desperate town" you say it's "desperate scum"; that's scummy. If it's lylo, I don't want the game to end with my lynch.

False. This does not sound like desperate town. Desperate town is not concerned with keeping self alive at all costs. Desperate town is concerned with lynching suspected scum at all costs. You have claimed to believe KMD is scum; desperate town would push this. As a claimed cop, it is almost incomprehensible how unwilling you were to initially vote for a player who your own claimed investigation incriminated. Another sign that you are probably bussing your buddy.

If it's lylo, why wouldn't town be concerned with "keeping self alive at all costs"? You're wrong about that. The current reasons to lynch me are based on flavor and "bullshit" as you stated. From a behavior point of view, Kmd4390 is lurking and has disappeared since botching his claim. It looks like he's not concerned with helping Rising and Papa Zito make a good decision, he's just waiting and hoping they make a mistake, that's scummy.

Also, as a "claimed cop" I get ship information, since I'm on a hierarchy ship and RC and Dry-fit and sigma and Porkens were all on hierarchy ships, why should I immediately assume that there's not another explanation for the result that I got on Kmd4390?

[Excedrin]

I've been trying, that alone should cause concern when you contrast it to Kmd4390.

Kmd4390's claimed role makes little sense
1. absorbs power, has no way to use power
2. claimed "R.A" but never sent a message to activate it
3. despite never activating it, he absorbed energy
4. uses power but he still hasn't fullclaimed (how much power did his ship start with?)
5. doesn't fit flavor of SC2 in game Jugger (ship is invincible when shield is on)

Kmd4390's play today has been to lurk and wait for you and Zito to make a mistake.

He's suggested that there's an Excedrin + Rising or Zito scumteam, which makes no sense unless he's scum with Kast and he's hedging his bets to setup a win later (Kast + one of Zito / Rising + Excedrin, with the idea that Excedrin bussed Kmd4390).

Kmd4390's play on day 1: he said that Excedrin is town, Kast is obvtown, Keelie is probably town, Zito is scum, Rising is scummier than Zito. He setup the false dilemma between Zito and Dry-fit that I objected to.

Day 2 he posted:

Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.

Which possibly explains why he didn't claim his actual ship today.

Unvote. Kast can't be scum unless you are, then.

This really surprised me given his Excedrin and Zito or Rising pair today.

Rising, you say:

Seriously, Kast. You've been sloppy this whole day: Misreading and misunderstanding pretty much everything that anyone writes, and suggesting these kind of things... Come on.

...or Excedrin is scum with either you or Kast as a scumbuddy. Seriously: FOS Kmd for not thinking things through. I'm pretty sure by now that we have a Kmd/Excedrin pairing.

There's two players who are playing sloppy and not thinking things thru. If they're aligned scum there's a clear motivation for them to do that.

Where's Zito in all of this, I know you two have discussion going on in the QT, but at least if you're going to hammer, explain your reasons.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
-You must be scum. Showing that KMD is probably your scumbuddy doesn't change that you are scum and should be lynched.

If you are town and actually believe this, then you've made a mistake somewhere. Simpler explanation is that you're scum with Kmd4390 and trying to win via easy mislynch.

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
-You must be scum.

To expand on this. If you want to share your real role and KMD's real role, and those roles strongly suggest that we should lynch KMD before lynching you, then please do that. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to move my vote.

I have shared my real role. I have no idea what Kmd4390's role is, except that he's on a dreadnought.

Is there a purpose in posting useless crap like your prev post?

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin-
There is the chance that you might realize you've lost the game and just surrender instead of dragging things out. It's worth asking and doesn't hurt. Probably not going to work, but also not useless.

My respect for your skill at this game didn't start out extremely high, but wow... This is like typical noob scumhunting attempts where someone says, "Are you scum with X?" It's amusing to me that you believe that a useless crap post like your previous one actually has some merit.

How do you feel when you tell useless lies?

I don't know. What's the point of this question? Why do you persist in posting useless crap?

You are going to be lynched.

If you're town, you should see this as a potentially negative thing since it would result in instant town loss, when did you become so certain that I'm scum?

Is it a mark of honor for you as scum to go down insisting that you are a townie?

No, when I'm scum, I'd consider it a mark of honor to be considered a clear town player, beyond suspicion. This is the third time in this game day that you've presented something that's equally likely for town or scum (insisting that I'm town) then ignored the possibility that I'm town.

To be clear, my cards are on the table. I plan to lynch you, roleblock your buddy (KMD), then tomorrow we lynch him.

This is such a seductive plan. I'd really like to believe that Kast could roleblock Kmd4390, but I suspect that game will simply end.

If you don't have any answers to that, you might as well surrender...

You post a lot of pointless crap. I kinda liked wading thru the longer logic related crap posts though, these short crap posts just don't have enough meat.

[Excedrin]

Ad hom. I'll take that as a, "no, I don't want to surrender and I'm going to take out my frustrations by trying to be a jerk."

Do you think that I'm frustrated? Are you implying that frustration is a scumtell? If so, that's the 4th time you've taken something that's equally likely for town and scum and tried to imply that I'm scum because of it.

@Excedrin-
-Are you the type of scum player who gets angry/aggressive when he is caught?
-Are you the type of scum player who insists he is town even through twilight after his lynch?

Both of these questions are about theory, since they don't apply to the current situation. Do you really think that it's a good idea to ask a lot of theory questions when it's presumably lylo? How would my answer to either of these questions help town?

If you think that Kmd4390 and I are scum together, why aren't you asking him any of these crap questions? Is it because Kmd4390 was being honest and you don't want to risk bussing your scumbuddy when you have an easy mislynch possibility?

I mean, if you honestly believe:

There is the chance that you might realize you've lost the game and just surrender instead of dragging things out. It's worth asking and doesn't hurt. Probably not going to work, but also not useless.

then you should obviously be asking Kmd4390 to surrender. How do you explain your inconsistency?

To be more clear though, do you have any examples where you were caught as scum and reacted in a different manner

Different from what? Different from my town reaction?

[Excedrin]

That would depend on other mechanics, specifically what abilities the 8 town aligned players have. If the 8 town players are vanilla, then 3 scum + survivor seems to favor scum. If town has a lot of actions then it could be balanced. It also depends if the neutral has a kill or not (SK sometimes kills scum).

In general (this is extremely general), 3 + survivor in 12p favors scum.

[Excedrin]

I assumed that "townies" implied town players with unspecified abilities and that your setup question was not related to this game, since we don't have any survivors.

[Excedrin]

If Rising is survivor he's certainly not playing to survivor win condition. The only possible exception would be if he's really uncertain about current living number of scum.

---

It's possible that Porkens had a pilot based energy drain ability (Chenjesu in SC2 ship secondary weapon has this) and targeted me last night. He may have also targeted someone else on night 1. While thinking this, I decided to look for a crumb and found:

The lack of a nightkill bothers me. I think that the scum would be able to kill a ship and everyone on it with their night action

(my podship had that ability plus doc plus the ability to do both in one night.)

I'm lead to believe that the lack of a nightkill was a strategic decision.

Bolded part is interesting since it contradicts the one pilot ability and/or one ship ability mentioned in the 1st post.

Anyway I didn't find a crumb. The closest anything came to that was his inclusion of Locke Lamora as #2 suspect.

---

The Porkens post that I quoted was also the one that Kast objected to as narrowing down possible town protective roles. I could see Kast missing the "multiple actions" in one night thing though (he stressed it earlier and requested mod confirmation), since it was a minor point. Also, I see that it's been mentioned while I was typing this go go mega simulpost.

[Excedrin]

Uhh, Kmd is lying about his ship so it seems like your reason to lynch him isn't very well thought out. I don't want to be lynched but your logic is really bad, I hope there's more to it.

[Excedrin]

If Kast is Kmd4390's scumbuddy, then no. The only person Kast can hammer right now is Kmd4390.

If Kast is town (it's possible) then yea, we've (likely) won, lynch one of Kmd4390/Excedrin first and the other second. This only fails if scum can double kill (which they kinda can even if they have only one "kill" given that Rising and Zito are on the same ship, it comes down to luck regarding who Zito swaps where and what the living scum's pilot abilities are).

[Excedrin]

Yea, I was lyncher to Kmd4390, gg everyone!

Kast, you're obvscum, you can drop the charade

[Excedrin]

Yea, I was lyncher to Kmd4390, gg everyone!

Kast, you're obvscum, you can drop the charade

What? Seriously?

*Has rant for Mod, but will wait*

Nah, not srsly