Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Locke Lamora]

I don't really see the case on Dry-fit at all. It seems pretty tentative and there's not a lot of weight behind it. I'm not sure why Sigma is worried about Dry-fit in 162 when the reasons he gave don't exactly reek of scum. The more I read Zito's meta, the more I agree that he's reacting to votes differently in this game than he previously has done as town. I think the nature of the bandwagon is slightly different here but even so, there's a significant difference in his attitude between this game and Mini 817, where he seemed far more casual even being at L-2. I'm getting the feeling that one of the wall-of-texters is scum but it's hard to get a read when there are so many pointless arguments and semantic debates to wade through. I can't help but feel that at least one of them is doing it deliberately to bog the game down and look like a committed townie at the same time.

Given all that, I will:

Vote: Papa Zito

[SpyreX]

Vote Count:

Kmd4390(0):
Dry-fit (2): Rising, Kast
Locke Lamora(0):

Papa Zito(4): Excedrin, Plum, Kmd4390, Locke Lamora

Excedrin(0):
Plum (0):
Rising (0):
Kast (1): Porkens
KeelieRavenWolf (1): sigma
sigma (1): Dry-fit
Rosso Carne (0):

Not Voting (4): Rosso Carne, KeelieRavenWolf, Papa Zito

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline: Thursday, October 7th, 1030 PM PST

[Kmd4390]

Locke, the Wall-O-Texter you are referring to is probably Rising. But I like your vote, so Rising can wait until tomorrow.

More Zito votes please.

Rosso, would you hammer Zito over a no lynch?

[Locke Lamora]

I wouldn't say it's just Rising. I think Kast has also made some pretty sizeable posts and I found Plum's 159 to be very difficult to wade through at certain points, particularly this:

Because Sigma actually posted both clauses ("convince other players to vote your lynch target" and "convincing players that you've found scum?") before Dry-fit's comments and Sigma's actual posts make it pretty clear that he equates the two clauses. It's not in any way a case of Dry-fit "not remembering things right", it's a case of Dry-fit not liking the vote or the little bit that expounded upon the vote/reexplained it. Also Post #43

does

imply a misrepresentation of Sigma's part to Dry-fit's mind clearly indicated when Dry-fit stated his entirely different (from Sigma's) interpretation of Kmd's post and questions him with implications of Sigma-suspicion/incredulosity at Sigma's interpretation of said post.

I can't help but feel that could have been said in less words, or at least worded in a way that didn't make you feel like you had to read it six times. That might just be playstyle, of course, so I'll be reading up on these players as much as I can.

[SpyreX]

Clarifications:

What happens to a ship when a player is lynched?

An unmanned ship is destroyed.

What happens to other players on the ship when the pilot is lynched?

Another player may become pilot.

What happens to the ship if a passenger is lynched?

Nothing.

When you rescue a jettisoned player, do you learn any information about that player?

No.

Does the rescued player learn any information about you or your ship?

No.

[Kast]

@Mod-
Thanks.
-When an unmanned ship is destroyed, is there any public information revealed about that ship?

@Porkens-

I feel that keeping this information to myself and hoping to deal with it independently has a higher risk of failure than bringing it to light now. I also suspect that knowing scum can use this ship, knowing that I was on it night one, and possibly knowing who might end up on it later could make it harder for the scum to take and use.

-I can understand deciding to share some setup information that you feel is better for the town to know. This seems independent of your reason of providing solid information for the town to discuss. Your previous post seemed to imply that your information would be relevant to today's lynch. Was that what you meant to imply? If so, do you feel that it has done anything to achieve that purpose?
-Why did you wait until there was less than a week to go to share this information?
-Dropping game setup information that does not point to a lynch or any vote leaders right before deadline is...distracting. We need a strict majority or else we will have a no lynch. I don't see how your choice to reveal information is helping us move towards a lynch consensus.

How does it help town at all to give us this information of your claimed night action choice?

Maybe I'm lying. But that possibility should be obvious, so why are you fishing?

-You say your reason for sharing this information is to help town. How does it help town?
-How is my question rolefishing?

@Sigma-

I believe Porkens' story. Why bother with have abilities be 'racial' if everyone starts with a ship aligned to their race?

-I believe Porkens is telling the truth that he plans to destroy his ship and jettison. He would be pretty crazy to claim that then not do it.
-I think it is plausible that he is on a ship that does not match his race (I'll also caution everyone else to be careful and not reveal if your own ship matches your race; Porkens could be fishing for someone to let that slip).
-I don't think either of those says anything about his alignment.

-I think it is definitely possible that a ship could be destroyed without the player being killed, which would result in players needing to be rescued and ending up on ships that don't match their race.
-We have a known public game mechanic which allows players to go from one ship to another (with the pilot's permission) and could also result in a player's race not matching the ship.

[Kast]

@Zito-
-I am willing to lynch you to prevent a no lynch.
-You are the vote leader and, atm, the most viable lynch. If you are going to defend yourself and/or claim, consider doing it sooner than later.

[Dry-fit]

@Dry-Fit-
I agree that it would be difficult for you to drop all blame to me if you successfully pushed a mislynch. However, that does not mean you (or scum in general) would not attempt that. If I were killed, it would make it much easier as you could boldly associate your push with a dead confirmed townie and try to gain credibility. Regardless, I think this is a significant enough possibility that my vote belongs on you.

I still can't fathom how this would even be possible to pull off. You asked me if sigma is my top suspect, I assume because at the time I wasn't voting. I don't see how that could possibly be twisted into you pushin for a sigma lunch.
No one would buy it.

I'm getting the feeling that one of the wall-of-texters is scum but it's hard to get a read when there are so many pointless arguments and semantic debates to wade through. I can't help but feel that at least one of them is doing it deliberately to bog the game down and look like a committed townie at the same time.

Not a fan of this. Setting up an excuse to vote any of several players
later on.

I don't feel any urgency to move my vote at this time.

[Kast]

@Locke-
I'm pretty sure that KMD's post was not saying that Rising is the only wall-o-texter. I'm pretty sure he was implying that out of all the wall-o-text posters, Rising is the one he thinks is most likely to be scum.

[Kast]

@Dry-Fit-
Here's what I see.

I pushed you a bit about your case on Sigma.
(1)-I had already called out your prior reason for pushing Sigma as weak.
I also pushed Sigma on two issues.
(2)-His pressure on Porken's "vig" comment which looks like joking but which Sigma was treating as a serious issue.
(3)-I questioned his stated position on Zito (he responded by voting Keelie).

In response, you confirmed that you are seriously pushing Sigma with three main points:
(A)-You are no longer using your old reasons.
(B)-You dislike his weak vote for Keelie (and Locke to a smaller degree).
(C)-You dislike his repeated references to Porken's "vig" comment.

(1) and (2) directly correlate with your (A) and (C). (2) and (B) loosely correlate in that I pushed him about his voting/suspicions and you likewise pushed his voting.

I suppose the symmetry may indicate you were trying to convince me to your point, but it feels a lot more like you were trying to buy complacency by agreeing with me, while giving yourself an "out" in the event that your vote turned into a mislynch.

[Kast]

@Dry-fit-
Would you move your vote to avoid a no lynch?

@Sigma-
I would assume from your previous posts that you would be okay with either a Dry-Fit OR a Zito lynch. Is this an accurate assumption?

[Excedrin]

b) you've got ulterior motives in trying to get someone to pick you up. I'm leaning towards the latter because I just don't see why you would be given the option to simply blow a ship up that's of no use to you personally.

Everyone has the ability to blow up the ship they're on, it's mentioned in the 1st post.

Dropping game setup information that does not point to a lynch or any vote leaders right before deadline is...distracting.

Agreed.

If Papa Zito is going to claim, does it make sense for him to claim his race only, ship only, or both? If he claims his own race only and it looks good, reduces suspicion etc, then is there any reason to reveal ship as well?

Since I don't know Porkens' ship's racial ability this is speculation, but it seems like his plan is a bad idea or it would have been better to do it without announcing it.

The act of retrieving a jettisoned player is a night action. Since Porkens will be floating around in space this night or on the start of day 2, is it possible to retrieve him as tonight's night action?

[Excedrin]

Sigma, your Keelie vote is a lurker-pressure vote. Please place it on someone with at least two votes (Zito, Dry-fit, Kast). Locke, either push a case on me that will get 6 quickvotes (unlikely) or change your vote to Zito, Dry, or Kast. Dry, Sigma isn't going to be lynched. Change your vote. Jelly, same thing I said to Sigma. Rosso isn't going to be lynched. Choose on of Zito, Dry, and Kast.

I don't like the inclusion of Dry-fit as someone with 2 votes since Rising has stated he's not behind a Dry-fit lynch.

There's basically only one vote for Dry-fit (Kast).

In effect, there's also 2 votes for Kast (Porkens and Rosso Carne).

It seems like there's not much consensus for a 2nd lynch choice, so I'm going to make this clear now:

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

Fuck it,

Unvote, Vote: Kast

I have reservations about Papa Zito lynch but I'm still willing to vote Papa Zito to avoid NL. I'm also willing to vote for sigma.

[Kast]

@Excedrin-
Mind sharing any reasons for preference of Kast over Zito?

[Plum]

If Papa Zito is going to claim, does it make sense for him to claim his race only, ship only, or both? If he claims his own race only and it looks good, reduces suspicion etc, then is there any reason to reveal ship as well?

Zito's the one who has given us the list of which races are likely to be scum/third party and which are Town. I'd prefer some paraphrased flavor if/when he claims. So personal name, race, probably powers to, and I guess he can hold to ship info with the provision that it's quite likely I'd end up asking for it anyway.

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait. First, why does the belief that Porkens is Town mean that his suspicions of Kast will bear fruit? Townies are very often

wrong

in their suspicions. What about Porkens or his suspicions of Kast makes you think that Kast is more likely than Zito to be scum? You also do realized that if one of your reasons here is "to prevent NL" you've just moved your vote from a wagon that had had 4/7 votes for lynch to one that now has 2/7 votes - or with Rosso's willingness 3/7 (and downgrading the Zito wagon to 3/7), making NL at least a little more likely to result.

And if your only reason from switching from Zito, whom you had at least a little case on, to Kast is simply because Porkens is voting Kast and you believe Porkens to be probtown.

HOS: Excedrin

Pending a reread of you I could see myself voting you if you'd actually be likely to garner 7 votes.

[Kast]

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

There was 4 on Zito, with myself and Sigma both indicating preference for Zito over no lynch. That is a viable lynch. Please explain how switching to Kast prevents a NL?

[Kast]

@Mod-
Is the vote count correct?

kmd is listed twice and there are only 3 names under non-voting but the count says 4.

Mod Mistake - Someday I'll find a good way to do votes!

[Excedrin]

Based on recent events, I think Porkens is town, so I'm willing to switch to Kast to prevent NL.

There was 4 on Zito, with myself and Sigma both indicating preference for Zito over no lynch. That is a viable lynch. Please explain how switching to Kast prevents a NL?

I miswrote, if this Kast wagon is going nowhere I'm willing to move my vote back to Papa Zito or to sigma.

Lets put it this way, how many scum are on Papa Zito's wagon right now? I thought about that and decided that I'm much happier on the Kast wagon.

Papa Zito is my 3rd preference though I have reservations about his lynch. Consider my vote still on him if you like. If he's at 6 votes I'll hammer.

And if your only reason from switching from Zito, whom you had at least a little case on, to Kast is simply because Porkens is voting Kast and you believe Porkens to be probtown.

That's not the only reason. I think Kast is likely scum.

[Porkens]

-I can understand deciding to share some setup information that you feel is better for the town to know. This seems independent of your reason of providing solid information for the town to discuss. Your previous post seemed to imply that your information would be relevant to today's lynch. Was that what you meant to imply? If so, do you feel that it has done anything to achieve that purpose?

The ship discussion was designed to draw out more meaningful conversation that might present a good lynch. However, in that initial post it was not meant to show a logical vote. I think it is getting there through conversation, though.

-Why did you wait until there was less than a week to go to share this information?

I had thought about it early on, but I didn't want to hijack other possible roads of conversation.

-Dropping game setup information that does not point to a lynch or any vote leaders right before deadline is...distracting. We need a strict majority or else we will have a no lynch. I don't see how your choice to reveal information is helping us move towards a lynch consensus.

I think it will be valuable to see who reacts strongly, weakly, or not at all, to the information. The specific reactions themselves will also present evidence later on.

-You say your reason for sharing this information is to help town. How does it help town?
-How is my question rolefishing?

1. I believe it helps the town more than it helps the scum because it draws out conversation directly related to the motivations of scum and town. I'm giving the scum a chance to bite the carrot here, so I don't want to say too much more at this time. 2. again, I'm sorry but I can't think of a way to answer this question without giving up the information which I already stated I do not wish to give up.

-I think it is plausible that he is on a ship that does not match his race (I'll also caution everyone else to be careful and not reveal if your own ship matches your race; Porkens could be fishing for someone to let that slip).

I encourage other's NOT to follow my example here.

-I don't think either of those says anything about his alignment.

I wouldn't want anyone to assume so. This could be a great scum-gambit

-I think it is definitely possible that a ship could be destroyed without the player being killed, which would result in players needing to be rescued and ending up on ships that don't match their race.

I think so too.

-We have a known public game mechanic which allows players to go from one ship to another (with the pilot's permission) and could also result in a player's race not matching the ship.

Hmm, only if that person has been jettisoned, and I don't think the

player who was jettisoned

has a choice.

That's not the only reason. I think Kast is likely scum.

Why?

[Excedrin]

I don't like the implication that because Papa Zito has 4 votes and Kast has 1 vote, the choice is between Papa Zito and Dry-fit. So, I considered simply stating that I'm willing to vote Kast, but after reflection I decided that I should vote whoever I think is scummiest.

Since Rosso's vote is invisible, there's 3 on Kast, with Kmd4390 possibly willing to vote Kast.

I didn't like the false dilemma set up by Kmd4390 in his post, that's why I quoted it before failing to explain my unusual behavior.

[Excedrin]

Why?

1. Kast seems to have dropped a lot of minor "I like your post, good job!" pats on the back to a lot of people (to me #42, Plum #53, Sigma #102, KeelieRavenWolf #137, Locke Lamora #173, and even Rising (multiple cases of "Rising is a townie-just bad at logic" #102, #120, #140, #143 etc)) looks like buddying.
2. Kast has spent far too much time/energy/words arguing with Rising over a "who cares?" kind of point
3. Dry-fit looked like an easy target considering Rising and sigma had posted suspicion of him before Kast posted his:

#168
This isn't extremely strong, but I think it's the clearest thing I've seen so far and is sufficient for a vote. It is less ideal since two others have expressed suspicion of Dry-Fit (although Rising also kinda jumped on leads I dropped). This also wasn't exactly a trap set for Dry-fit specifically; I think he could easily have responded with similar content but changed his tone and I would probably be fine with it. His tone makes me suspect the response that he did give.

Extremely weak "well, I guess I'll vote here, maybe he's scum." Really? Tone is good enough after all the BS you've spewed about logic? Alright then.
4. It's OK to not have a clear top suspect on day 1, but that Kast has weighed in with so many "neutral/slightly scummy" kinds of reads seems like an attempt to avoid scrutiny after a mislynch. His lack of a vote seems very different to me from Rosso Carne's lack of a vote, as I stated in #148.

[Kast]

I think Kast is likely scum.

Again, do you have any reasons for thinking this? It is good that you clarify that your vote is not solely to avoid a no lynch, however, you haven't said why you think I am scum.

I had thought about it early on, but I didn't want to hijack other possible roads of conversation.

-I believe town can handle more than one line of discussion. But I grant that others don't always hold that same belief.
-If you genuinely think this information helps town achieve a lynch, then what have we discussed previously that was so important that you felt the town would suffer from having attention diverted to your claim instead? What changed this to make it okay to claim now?
-It sounds like you were fully aware that your claim could be distracting and would not necessarily bring about immediate results. Why would you choose to share so near deadline while knowing this?

Hmm, only if that person has been jettisoned, and I don't think the player who was jettisoned has a choice.

Interesting point.

@Mod-
Can a player who has been jettisoned refuse a rescue?

@Excedrin-
You like to count Rosso's "invisible" vote, yet you choose to discount Rising's actual vote and Sigma's "invisible" vote.

However, that pales against your failure to address Zito's 3 actual votes and 3 "invisible" votes plus others who are willing to vote anyone over no lynch.

Summary of "reasons" to vote for me:
-Avoiding a no lynch by dropping the vote leader to 1 less vote (Excedrin)
-Being too helpful (Rosso Carne)
-Not making weak OMGUS votes (Rosso Carne)
-"Fishing" (Porkens)
-Not calling Porkens for lurking (Porkens)
-Too early to have a "Neutral" or "Slight" read on other players (Porkens)
-Posting too much (Porkens)

Everything except for the "Fishing" and "Lurking" comments would normally be reasons to NOT vote for someone.

The "fishing" consists of Porkens saying "I'm doing X because of Y", then me asking "How does X accomplish Y?". He can't explain because it would reveal too much information?!?

The lurking comment is just weird. Btw, I DID ask Porkens to post more content and to post more, so arguably it isn't even true.

Preview Edit-Separate post to cover Excedrin's next post.

[Papa Zito]

@Zito-
-[1]I am willing to lynch you to prevent a no lynch.
-[2]You are the vote leader and, atm, the most viable lynch. If you are going to defend yourself and/or claim, consider doing it sooner than later.

1. K.
2. Defend myself from what, Kast?

So here's what I know. The current wagon is on a townie so it's like scum-driven. It's also built on a meta argument, which is crap. If you want to see a town example of me playing like this, see Day 1 of /invitational 2. Also I'm pretty pissed I've allowed Kmd's antics to throw me off this much, especially when I love the theme so much.

I'm mulling whether to claim or not. Won't for the moment. Claiming the ship is right out, don't even bother asking.

Brb, isos.

[Excedrin]

-Avoiding a no lynch by dropping the vote leader to 1 less vote (Excedrin).

Already stated, I miswrote. I believe that you were aware of my post #242 when you posted this since you were clearly aware of post #244 and post #245. So, why are you acting like that's the only reason I stated?

You like to count Rosso's "invisible" vote, yet you choose to discount Rising's actual vote and Sigma's "invisible" vote.

#167
I'm eager again, at the moment, just so you know (and so you won't speculate about this in the future). I won't have Dry-fit as the lynch for today.

This is why I discount Rising's actual vote. This is why I believe the choice between Dry-fit and Papa Zito is a false dilemma.

[Papa Zito]

Rosso Carne - Has absolutely tunneled on Kast for no apparent reason. He keeps soliciting votes but doesn't give any reasons to make people want to join his wagon. I'm not sure what to make of him.
Porkens - Kinda irritated that he didn't tell me where to find animated SC2 avatars. Jumped on my wagon because I got defended against a crap case. Then he didn't do anything until he announced that he's on a scum ship. He claims to have said this to draw reactions but there's a distinct lack of analysis now that he's gotten his reactions. Thinking this could a scum gambit.
Papa Zito - Irritated townie.
Kmd4390 - Started this whole mess and has now jumped back when his Rising attempt went nowhere.
Plum - Prob townie.
sigma - I agree with his scumhunting and his targets. Townish
KeelieRavenWolf - Waiting on the promised post tonight. Hasn't done much of anything.
Excedrin - Can't decide on him. I didn't like the way he jumped on me. I don't like that his vote is still on me but he's posting like it's not. I don't like that I'm 3rd on his list and I'm still his vote. ...
Rising - I have reasons to believe he's town which I will not go into.
Kast - Prob townie.
Locke Lamora - Correctly had my stance throughout the game, and now he's allowed himself to be "convinced" to vote me. Coasted along otherwise. Likely scum.
Dry-fit - I'm confused why his vote is on sigma and not Plum. If she's committed two scumtells then you'd think a vote there would make sense. You'd also think he would explain the second and try to get votes on her. Not sure what to make of him.

Da List

Prob Townie

Rising
Kast
Plum

TOwnish

sigma

Neutral

KeelieRavenWolf
Rosso Carne
Excedrin
Dry-Fit

Scummy

Porkens
Kmd4390

Prob Scum

Locke Lamora

vote: Locke Lamora

(for posterity?)