Newbie 834 (Game Over!)

[Oman]

I confirm.

Also I am your IC, and I do have two hats for today. The first is the "player" hat. I have an alignment and I won't bother saying that its town (because you wouldn't and shouldn't believe me). I want to win.

I also have my "IC" hat, and I often put it on. I answer questions unbiasedly and with my only desire to help you guys learn things.

The two in no way affect each other.



Anyway guys, great to see you, hope we have a good game.

[Oman]

Vote: Playplay

VOTE VOTE VOTE!

This, newbies, is called a bandwagon. Jumping on a player for no reason other than to increase the number of votes on them. Once this section is over I'll discuss the reasoning.

[Oman]

1) Lots, its been about two years worth.

2) I "enjoy" scum roles more, but I have been trending towards town roles, they're a lot more interesting to play.

Vote: Playplay

Jumping on a player for no reason other than to increase the number of votes on them. Once this section is over I'll discuss the reasoning.

Oman, would you care to explain the reasoning behind this mate as I'm sure you just pushed me one other random town vote away from the mafia lynching me by -ing.

Okay, firstly, I'll begin by saying the one thing nobody wants this early in the game is to be lynched. For that reason, the more votes someone has on them, the jumpier they are. They become easier to read, or if they're scum, they make mistakes. For that reason, the best thing to do is to get votes on your number one suspect.

Secondly, no scum in their right mind would have lynched you, because they would have revealed themselves and been taken out. Thats why its a good idea, all benefit, no drawback.

That said, we're moving towards the point where someone could be lynched, and right now, I have a few ideas (no I will not share them so don't ask )

[Oman]

@Oman: how can you tell anything at this stage.

After two years I've developed no special technique or graph that lets me determine things, but I have developed a "feel" basically people do things that is usually done by this group or that group, and it gives me a lead.

I do not say that I "know" anything right now, nor do I think I have all that much to go on, but yes, I have a feel or two.

Also, time for a lesson that I think is important to start with:

Lurking vs Not Here

This distinction really is as clear as defining the two:
Not Here(/inactive/flaked/abandoned): Has lost interest or ability to continue and thus is no longer reading the thread or participating in the game. That is, a player who is "Not Here" is not doing it for any tactical advantage, they just aren't here.

Lurking: Lurking is where a player is reading along, and calculating or analyzing the game, however, they are not posting to avoid drawing suspicion to themselves or for some other tactical advantage.

Just sayin'

[Oman]

scum claims cop and claims you guilty then we find them to be scum.

That doesn't make him innocent, it just makes the other guy guilty.

Mafia won't usually get onto the bandwagon early together. They will try to split their votes.

This is pretty presumptuous.

To show I have no evil intentions I will unvote

I dunno man, looks like you can be pushed around pretty easy. Why would a townie be so flimsy?


I didn't like anything in that post except the second paragraph/line.

I dont really know how to convince players that I am a genuine town player, just saying so seems a little contritived.

Also pointless.

Oman, what you said about mafia not wanting to "throw down" the last 2 votes, so they can remain off the radar makes sense complete sense. But I'm envisioning that if the mafia get on the bandwagon early, not that I'm accusing you and greendude of that that maybe other newer town players will be more jumpy in this early stage and may want to get that day one bandwagon lynch.

Damn, this is confusing, but the argument seems a bit WIFOM, if that's the correct usage of it?

Its close, except the WIFOM argument only works where there is equal payoff for both sides. Getting one townie lynched to lose both mafia isn't a fair trade, its not worth them doing it, and therefore its not really WIFOM.

As for the fact that you're pretty much freaking out her Hi, welcome to mafia. Its important that regardless of anyone's alignment you don't take it personally. No-one wants to be the D1 lynchee, but someone will be.

Anyway, its all just a party, and I am getting closer to revealing something as we push further forward.

[Oman]

@oman: I meant the scum claiming cop that is scum flips scum.

I'm not being flimsy. I just voted for no reason and decided to unvote because I have no clue what I err um. What am I talking about??

I'm lost.

Heh, don't worry. Most newbies tend to be very "leaf in the wind". I certainly was. Its common for them to be flimsy or to shift a vote around often.

I also do not understand your scenario in the first line.

2 votes probably isn't something to be overly worried about, at this stage.(?)

Guess this is own fault for starting my own bandwagon >.<

No and yes, its situational. Also, why did you vote yourself?

Oman hasn't posted with his player hat on. In fact he's said that he won't share his opinions. I can't see how this is helpful to the town...

Its helpful to the town because the worst thing to happen is for the IC to influence the newbie's opinions based on experience rather than merit. It happens a lot! Instead I let some discussion go past then ask a question like:

Ladies and Gents:

If you had to, would you say that playplay is:
A) Almost Certainly Town
B) Likely Town
C) Unsure
D) Likely Scum, or
E) Almost Certainly Scum.


Take a pick, let me know, and I'll tell you my opinions and the reasons why.

[Oman]

I was going to put in after everyone else but fine:
He is almost certainly town.

Self-voting, his freak out at two votes, his eagerness to learn afterwoulds (asking me questions about it), the continued poking and prodding at other players, a few "here is what I think".

I'm not usually this confident this early, and I may go back on it if he suddenly changes or something else, but for now, Playplay is pretty much town.

[Oman]

@Oman

then why do you have a vote down for playplay if you are certain he is town?

Its been left their from that first wagon, and I haven't shifted it. Thanks for the reminder.

@Oman: I don't care who you think is town, I want to know who you suspect of being scum. I fear that playplay is now a dead man walking, and you had a part in that.

Possibly, but if it means our lynch was more accurate, then its worth it (also, I doubt playplay is going to be the kill tonight, but thats just the way I play it. In fact, if he is I think it would tell me a considerable amount)

@oman: If player A claims cop and says player B is guilty. But then player A is lynched and the town finds out he was scum. Then Player B most likely is town. Because player A probably wouldn't risk lynching player B if he was scum. Unless it's his master plan.

Yeah I dunno, I take it case by case, but I see where you're coming from.

If oman were scum. Then A: he tried to protect his partner playplay.
or B: He will then kill playplay in the night and in the mourning say I told you so. And everyone else would go: Hail mighty Oman!!

Thats an empty play, it doesn't buy me anything, so I probably wouldn't waste my time with B. A on the other hand, yes it could be done, but remember that now playplay and I have a huge link between us, which is exactly what scum don't want. I'm drawing a lot of attention to him (which is protown to do, but not good for a partner).

vAs to your theory that Oman is protecting playplay: that would imply that playplay is a very subtle and devious player. I don't buy it.

This too

On the other hand, I would expect Oman to be sly. That's why I don't like his attempt to get everyone to declare playplay as town. He's probably asleep down under so I'll leave it at that.

Thats exactly what I DIDN'T want to happen!!! Thats why I tried to get everyone to post their thoughts first. You say I have to tell you what I think straight up, and when I do, you say that I'm railroading everyone to say he is town. I don't seriously think this is manipulation right now, but

IGMEOY

Can someone please jump on the CSL bandwagon. I want to crank up the pressure a bit.

Yup, especially with his response, he's one of the few to have not posted a lot. Lets just run a little pressure wagon (I do love those).

Unvote. Vote: CSL

[Oman]

I just would like to see more from CSL. I'm not getting much substance from him at all.

[Oman]

Unvote

CSL is on 3? Hmm not where I want to have someone on page four. Just know that it can go back on if there is not more content.

[Oman]

Oh I forgot to add, killing a "confirmed town" is both a good and a bad thing, and the mafia would weigh up both before making that choice.

Killing the IC is an easy move to subvert, because if the IC makes it through a few nights they get a lot of flak "why didn't they kill you?" etc.

My general rule is in Newbie games, the mafia's selection for kill is the one thing they have 100% control over, so that is the best opportunity for them to screw with the town.

[Oman]

Well I don't know how to do multiple quotes in the same post, so here's lots of little ones...

Code: Select all

[quote="Player Name"] [/quote]

[Oman]

Ox1de, I play to fufill my win condition, if that means I have to survive to win then thats that. But in games like this, surviving is very low on my priority list.

[Oman]

@Oman: You're play style is creeping me out. How about telling us who you think the two most scummy players are.

You're growing up my list, probably closer to number #3 or something. Your call for bandwagon isn't really that scummy, its the way you went back on almost everything you said, and started to get really twitchy about it. You're worried that people find you scummy.

I really don't like the way you backed off motbob, however, it does make me think you're a little bit town (because you're not sure of yourself). But then you get called on the CSL wagon, and you jump straight off?

I'm thinking CSL/Looker is probably in my top two at the moment, but there is no way I want a lynch yet due to the fact that if he is scum we don't have enough information on a partner. Also, CSL's replacement, that could certainly change my mind.

Darkstrike is probably my other suspect right now. His post voting Ox1de definatly put him up to number one. Its mostly patently false, and throws suspicion on Ox1de that isn't warranted.

Time to post my results of Ox1de’s iso read. He starts off so standard, with the random vote on CSL. However he then has this post:

@playplay: glad you like the picture. How did you know it was from xbox?

@ef87: thanks for adding a pic. Mind you, the 2girls1cup ref is gross (just a comment, not a criticism).

@Darkstrike: Asking questions without providing answers is a bit smelly.

@Oman: how can you tell anything at this stage.

So my vote stays with CSL even though Jack is equally suspicious for lurking.

Here he seems to infer that his vote on CSL is serious, and is at this stage as suspicious as Jack. I’m not sure what to do with this, its just interesting.

Yes, he uses the comparitive "as supicious as Jack" doesn't really run with it though, just a small though.

Ox1de seems to tunnel CSL a fair bit, for his lack of substantial posting, something I don’t disagree with.

False. Ox1de has been one of the most rounded players in this game. He has asked questions of everyone, put votes on more people than anyone else, and been probing every cranny. This is a flat out lie.

Anyway Ox1de's main source of scumminess comes from the urge to build up a bandwagon. I really don't like people encouraging a bandwagon, as only scum have a motivation to do it. Its not pro town to hurry up the lynch of another player.

Again false. Town has plenty of reason to build bandwagons. Bandwagons add pressure, and pressure catches scum. Thats the main one. There is also the fact that...you know...we want to catch the scum and kill them.

Up till here I was very much thinking a neutral read, and in fact was starting to suspect CSL a lot more due to the tunnelling Ox1de did against him. However this post confuses me.

Wait what? The problem was that he was tunneling, and that was a scumtell, but then you started suspecting his suspect for....what reason?

Ox1de suddenly drops the CSL vote he has been clinging to, mainly due to the fact that everyone is picking up on the bandwagoning post. This is scummy, as it seems to be a u-turn to pick up town points. A townie would probably stick to his guns. Also, a pseudo-random vote isn’t really good at this stage of the proceedings.

The only really logical thing to come out of this post.



All in all, pretty bad. And probably warranting a first vote.

Unvote Vote Darkstrike_11

[Oman]

Has anyone else noticed this pattern:

• ef87 votes motbob
  DarkStrike suspects motbob
  ef87 votes CSL
  DarkStrike suspects CSL
  DarkStrike suspects 0x1de
  ef87 suspects 0x1de
  DarkStrike votes 0x1de

No, what twigged you to that?

[Oman]

Hi Garnasha!

Its been a while eh? What game was that?

in computer science class now so can't make really huge posts, going to reread everything up till now

with the knowledge that motbob was town

.

Oh, COME ON! Trying to role claim indirectly THAT OBVIOUSLY???

You're going right into my vote;

vote: garnasha

Reading a game prior to knowing who/what (i.e. player and role) you're replacing is p. common. And look at the term "reread". Saying "the knowledge that motbob [replacee] is town" is nothing. Its an effortless throwaway that people make all the time. Its information that Garnasha has (or is making up) that we don't.

Also Darklight could have used this to jump off the wary Ox1de early, eh?

Darklight: What do you think of the ef87/Darkstrike issue?

Darkstrike: What do you think of ef87?

ef87: What do you think of Darkstrike?

[Oman]

Found it Garnasha and I were scum together in that game, too.

See the wink, its a joke, right?

[Oman]

To show I have no evil intentions I will unvote

I dunno man, looks like you can be pushed around pretty easy. Why would a townie be so flimsy?

@oman: I meant the scum claiming cop that is scum flips scum.

I'm not being flimsy. I just voted for no reason and decided to unvote because I have no clue what I err um. What am I talking about??

I'm lost.

Heh, don't worry. Most newbies tend to be very "leaf in the wind". I certainly was. Its common for them to be flimsy or to shift a vote around often.

not going to post everything in between, since it's a lot and almost all irrelevant, and not going to post greendude's post since Oman quoted it, just noting that both posts are on the same page. This is pretty innocent, could just be an IC calming a townie who took a comment too seriously, but it still doesn't earn a lot of towniepoints^tm in my book, mainly for the reason that it doesn't seem very consistent and he could've pointed out that while it seems scummy it is fairly common among newbies in the same post.

Actually I don't think the two contradict each other. "leaf in the wind" play and being pushed around are two different things. One is moving based on the game around you, the other is reacting to direct force applied on you. There is a fundamental difference.

Yes, that's right, he puts a "pressure" vote on CSL, and takes it off again within NINE posts, stating not wanting someone on L-2 as a reason, with nothing having happened in the meantime except 2P cautiously following his lead, CSL slightly freaking out and GD stating he doesn't like the bandwagon either.

There are several reasons for this, one is that CSL wasn't looking like a good place for pressure, I already had a thought on Darklight (which I still haven't brought up yet). And the other major reasons is quite embarassing: Its a throwback from when I learned on C9. For those of you out there that are unaware, C9 had one or two less players, and 3 votes on page 4 would be a HUGE no-no.

When I saw this[/u], I sent hohum a PM stating I'd love to replace in, and that was for two reasons: I like this game, and

I was going to burst if I didn't get to do this

:

vote: Oman

Wow, thats....okay.

1. His voting here is, in his words, "flimsy". Unvoting within 9 posts? And he isn't a newbie who gets the "newbie leaf on the wind" out-of-jail card.
1a. Also, note that this unvote was after CSL got sympathy. Just from one person, but still, that's half the people who'd posted in that short timespan(5 hours between vote and Oman's "I want content", then another 3 hours till the unvote).

Nope, but I am an IC who should get a "obviously doesn't do things for no reason" card. If I change my mind (especially that quickly) its because something else has perked my interest.

2. Bad excuse to justify unvoting. L-2 isn't a bad thing. If someone'd put CSL on L-1, the first one on the bandwagon to see it would unvote and whoever put the L-1 on him would be under a lot of pressure, since L-1 IS a bad thing. If CSL got lynched before someone could unvote, the hammerer might as well be carrying a big neon sign saying "SCUM" for ending the day that quickly, without a proper case, just abusing a pressure bandwagon.

But on Page 4, we'd have almost nothing to look for a partner. And tell me why L-2 isn't bad but L-1 is? Its all situational, and at page 4 L-2 on CSL was a bad thing. Oh and regards the "bad reason to justify" I thought I made it pretty clear early on that justifying myself wasn't in my game plan for this game. I'm getting back into the swing of things, and really want to get things straight in my head before going to paper with them.

Oman knows this, he's an IC, he's played C9, where 7 players on day 1 means 4 to lynch means ANY bandwagon causes L-2. Not sure but I think he even was the one who explained this to me.

True this, but you and I seem to think fundamentally different: I think in terms of votes, you think in terms of L-votes.

2a. On top of that, I'm fairly sure he KNEW he was putting CSL at L-2. It's easy to count, what with this being page FOUR, and basic counting skills save you from putting someone closer to a lynch than you want to. This is so important in mafia that natural selection weeds out those unable to count a lot faster than the two years Oman's been playing.

Well, I didn't count it. Is that cool? I am not a player that writes notes, flowcharts, and diagrams, I simply do what feels right. I'm a gut player.

All in all, it's just one minor and one major tell, but one major tell this early in the game is better than all the small or ambiguous tells up till now together, afaik.

Fair call, except its only really a tell in a certain situation, but thats cool, from where you stand I can see what you're getting at.

[quote="Garnasha"

Killing the IC is an easy move to subvert, because if the IC makes it through a few nights they get a lot of flak "why didn't they kill you?" etc.

Of course, this is perfectly good IC advice, especially as someone else brought it up already(

note to self: look at this again if darkstrike turns out to be scum

). [/quote] Did you read my other post, the night kill is the only thing the scum have 100% control over, or my other post about me giving advice that isn't tied to my role (the IC hat)? And way to question my integrity to, thanks.

This isn't a lot, since IC and player roles run together here, but I still don't like it. That might be me seeing everything said by Oman in a bad light now though.

Yeah, well, with only 1 IC around I feel like I've got a bit of a duty to...you know...teach or something, so forgive me if I try to say something that might benefit me in a certain situation every now and then.

Basically, pot, kettle, black.

That's the second paragraph, the fourth paragraph I'll have to reread a lot for to judge, and the rest I'm skipping because I want to post this goddamn long post

Uhh, thats not pot kettle, etc. He got called out on it, I jumped off on my own intent. There is a serious difference to making a new decision and being caught.

Also, Oman, thank you for explaining my confirm post, glad that you remembered me, and didn't the rules say something about small text?

Nope, I checked.

Well, basically my point 2 against Oman. Btw, I think the whole 2P bandwagon thing's been weird. motbob didn't get it, CSL either didn't get it or is scum, same for anyone else who gave 2P townie points for not freaking out in 23. Not saying anything about other townie points yet, that's as far as I got reading when writing this snippet.

I am not going to tell the scum what a briliant fucking move it would be to jump on and hammer that early am I? To be honest, it would be great, because we'd be cut short, no conversation, just searching for a partner, who now has no ties to anyone else!


I also think Garnasha might have a little bias with this because he saw me as scum previously, but has never played town with me (and see's how much damage I do as scum).

townie points for that btw, he makes a valid point, one that might otherwise not have been made, and one that takes away suspicion from someone I thus far have read in exactly the same way: just doesn't care about this game, and that feels like no power role. Unless they're buddies(haven't looked for that yet, but don't really think so) scum has absolutely no reason to do something like that, not even deceiving town.

WHAT!?!?! Saying that is a terrible thing to say, it narrows down who the scum have to kill/get lynched to knock of Power roles. It makes a pointless statement that is a false generalisation that ANY (and I do mean nearly any) long time player will tell you has been proven wrong in their history! And scum do have a reason to say that too, indicates to their buddy to leave that guy alone.

And if you want a look at just how stupid it really is to apply that logic:

Vote: Garnasha for all that activeness in this semi-half-very-inactive game. This prooves that he wants this game to be played, which means he probably has a PR, most likely scum.

I want this game to be played because I'm bored out of my skull. And because I want someone to actually react to my case against Oman.

So you admit that a player's frequency of posting doesn't always coincide with their townie-status? PICK A SIDE.


Garnasha, you are hella frustrating, because it seems you've learned a bit of my play (and mafia play in general), but not enough to really make it work, and thus you're using the broad brush strokes that paint everything black. I'll give you that some of the things I did look scummy, but you are so, so wrong on so, so many points.

[Oman]

I'll accept that as "you know a little but not enough and you might cost us the game" like you said, if you turn out to be scum I'll take it as "seems you've learned something but can't admit you made a good case now" .

No if I turn out to be scum, it would be because you got lucky with your broad brush strokes off one tell. Sharp, yes, but you've still got a long way to go. We'll discuss this after the game regardless.

1. Yes that is how it went. Because he unvoted not because I challenged him, but for his own reasons.

2. It wasn't a good point when I put it on, but those two votes could have pointed out some bandwagon happy scum (the IC validated the bandwagon as a good place to be, and so they could have piled on), though that wasn't their main purpose. Once I realised it was the 3rd vote, I realised it was the vote I didn't want to have done.

2a. Ah I did mean darkstrike, thanks. And no, unvoting without voting him still makes sense. This is one of those finer points you don't understand yet. Yes generally not having your vote down is bad, but you don't always have to throw it down wildly if you have an idea (and if you're not focusing on someone, then L-2 isn't the right place to hold them).

I'd love to hear it, maybe not immediatly if you're relying on MeMe's dress(I'll look the exact quote up for you if you want) from our first game together, but before the end of D1 would be nice.

No idea what this refers to.

2b. Why was I playing on gut feeling? Because I am a gut player.

3. Yes.

4. You won't know what else perked my interest, because I don't. I just reread and got some gut feeling that something wasn't right. That the CSL bandwagon wasn't the place to be. I just got this idea that something bigger was coming (and I think we had that with darkstrike!).

but that's no reason not to believe it as that would place us on the slippery slope of letting ICs get away with "too scummy" things because they must have a higher plan.

Hmm...interesting precedent, guess I didn't consider that.

5. Yes, town should never hammer early, but town do it, and you only get two lynches in F11. And if you do lynch right the second time, then you've got no partner, because that smart scum goes mum and we're left with nothing.

Put on your IC hat if this really is completely off the mark.

From someone who just called me out for giving bad advice or something?

Anyway, as is the theme, your understanding of the L-progression is good, but elementary. It's good, but it shows that you've only played a few games, possibly of the same type. L-1 allows scum to hammer, but also has a lot of other baggage attatched to it. Its the expected point for a claim. Its also the maximum point of pressure. There is nothing wrong with it, at the right time. L-2 is the threat of the threat, its approaching L-1.

So L-1 is a bad move for town and justifies going after someone, while L-2 isn't.

This is all kinds of incorrect. You can't just

say

that. Its all about timing and scumminess and the way the game flows.

If CSL were scum, he wouldn't have been hammered.

Another all kinds of wrong. I've already explained why it would benefit scum to lynch their partner REALLY early D1.

And the hammerer still would've been suspicious.

Yes...with nothing to go on!

5a. I'm just pretty sure I made a comment to Ox1de about how I play being something about not posting huge rationales. I could be wrong.

6. You highlight your own problem here "I haven't had a chance to try that in bigger games yet". Nor in any more than a few little games. But yeah, I don't think in L-'s because it develops what you have, a terrible fear of L-1. Which isn't appropriate.

7. And I did say throwback, I don't play like I'm in a C9, I just have a few old habits that pop every now and then. And no I had no reason to count votes. I had no reason to think there was any more than one on him. Laziness is not a scumtell.

7a.

And gut feelings are great for scum to hide behind because they're not based on logic or hard facts, so they can't be caught using flawed logic.

Well town or scum, I've played gut for two years, search my games, I say it in most of them. Its how I play. Also, this bullshit because gut is simply an intuitive reaction to logic and facts, and once you get the gut hit you can do what I did with Darkstrike and find the holes, find the facts.

8. I have no idea how to convince you because I don't usually trawl old games. That said, standby on this, I'll see what I can dig up.

9. I said tainted yes. Because (as I said in this game) I do want to win. But I have a sense of duty to you guys. But yeah, even if I am scum, my theory discussions come from the head.

10. And fair enough. Its all about motivation.

11. Likely

12. Negative. If he was hammered at town D1, D2 we'd lynch the hammer (likely) and D3 we'd be left with nothing.

12a. Dammit, now I can't claim cop and storm to victory again Nah, I really loved that gambit. Hope you did too.

13. Yeah that power roles stick around, townies replace, thing is a false assumption.

13a. This is what I am saying on the whole, you were right, it was a town assumption, but saying it wasn't.

13b. NO!!! You can't just chart out players based on their posting frequency and vote them from that. Get out of that mindset, it doesn't fit. It wrong.

[Oman]

As for GD's "townie slap fight" comment:

I'm actually thinking we're getting to this point myself. I don't suspect you after all this, and I think you're remarkably protown in your arguments.

The "addressing Oman" bit I don't really know about, guess it's because I was thinking "I want an explanation for this". If someone had voted Oman with no further comment, I would've raised an eyebrow.

Yup, this is a matter of preference. I prefer going to the town direct, but whatever works for you.

And there's the fact that I still know him primarily as my IC and scumbuddy in my first game who taught me how to play mafia, so I can't bring myself to be hostile to him as a person.

C'mon, be a little stronger

[Oman]

@Garnasha: I have long suspected Oman (see several caustic comments), but I have absolutely nothing to go on. You keep up the pressure though.

To anyone who suspects this, its true. Remember Ox1de has been looking at me since way back for my throwaway comments but doesn't have a problem with my major articles as far as I know.

[Oman]

How is defending my attackers scummy? I'm not making stuff up to defend them wholeheartedly, I'm pointing out logical and cold hard facts, which is (I thought) what you liked to see?

You confuse the hell out of me, I think you just want me to be scum.

[Oman]

EBWOP: An explaination to the above. You were so proud of having "caught" me on that first thing that you posted, so excited, so ready to tear me down, that now you'll see anything as scummy because you want to be right about that first exciting hook.

[Oman]

Question to IC: ok, so I'm scared of L-1. So when's a good point to put DS on L-1? Once he's posted and hasn't lowered suspicion?

Whenever you feel that putting him on L-1 has more benefit than not doing it. If you want him to claim, you'll probably have to go to -1. If you want more out of him and he's not budging at his current position, I'd say put another on. If at any stage you actually want him lynched, another vote is hardly ever a bad idea.

L-1 is a risk/reward play. The pressure is enourmous, and great, but its risky if you're wrong and scum can justify the hammer well enough.

I guess, be a little more cautious, don't be scared.

[Oman]

A simple count would've told you otherwise

[Oman]

G'day crew, just getting out of hospital and back on my feet.

That sucks, cop gone by luck.

That was a really short night. The scum probably guessed there was no doc so they lynched the confirmed townie who by luck was the cop.

I find looker suspicious. Hammering ds because he needed someone to die so he could "figure a few things out", the Mafia need to figure a few things out by having night fall so they can chat. AND he expected a mislynch so he wasn't suspicious of DS either! There was plenty of time before the deadline too. I wanted to keep discussion going to find another suspect. And so that DS could post his list of suspects!! Is there something that you didn't want to say??

vote:Looker

So many things wrong with this. 1. "That sucks cop gone by luck"!?!? Firstly, "that sucks cop gone" is a pretty reliable scumtell. Secondly, by luck? How would you know if it was luck or the scum reading his tells? You seem to know more than you should.

2. Guessing about how the scum killed. Its pointless, adds nothing, and seems like misdirection. If they killed the confirmed townie who was by luck the cop, or they killed the cop because they could tell, it makes no difference to us, because we will never know that during the game.

3. I'm going back over the game later, so correct me if I'm wrong, but has Greendude ever been against Looker before? Jumping straight on the hammer is another really common scumtell.

4.

the Mafia need to figure a few things out by having night fall so they can chat.

Uhhh what? The mafia already know everything (including whether or not this game has a doctor now). And they know everyone's alignment. The mafia don't need to figure out anything except power roles and who to kill. Lynching only changes the timeline.

5.

There was plenty of time before the deadline too. I wanted to keep discussion going to find another suspect.

More discussion is not always the best, but regardless the second line looks like you just trying to get townie points.

Bad post by you. Like, amazingly bad post.

That said: Looker hammers with not much at all then posts that random vote there. Garnasha are you going to call me out if I vote him now?

(Just kidding, like your opinion matters Just want to wait for everyone to check in before I jump on one of these two, likely looker)

[Oman]

I don't know how to find cops though so I'm in the dark with that.

Assuming this isn't an attempt to look innocent of playplay's death, we'll discuss it after the game.

The mafia didn't get a chance to talk yet so they need to figure out what they are going to do and stratigize.

Mafia talk pre-game (during all that confirm stuff prior to the day starting) in almost every game. Probably the same in this one:

Mod: Did the mafia get a chance to talk pregame in this game, or was it restricted to N1

And I doubt there to be a doc because they were "told" to protect playplay.

I'm actually happy to leave this in play right now. Its wrong, but its what we want the mafia to think. Tag for postgame.

Btw, I spill scum tells everywhich way sometimes (no I'm not saying that if I seem really really scummy then this explains it), just read my 2nd game.

Me too, but its no excuse. The difference is in how you defend yourself, not in whether you get questioned (for example, look at Garnasha jumping on me. I explained myself, and because I am town, was able to convince [for now, mate] Garnasha that I wasn't scum and so we progressed).

[Oman]

1. They were lies, they were fundamentally wrong theory points. He was stating fact, not making opinion.

2. I did give CSL the benefit of the doubt. Then I was in hospital and not playing for the part of the Darkstrike wagon that can be called a wagon. I was intending to vote looker once enough had checked it, looks like they have.

3. Finding townies is almost more useful than finding scum in those early days. I'll explain that later when I'm not late for work. I wanted to see who was going to call him scum to see where people were reading.

4. That bit about "if CSL/Looker is scum Oman is his partner" looks like you know that Looker could turn up scum, and are trying to set up the neccesary mislynch after it. That said, I haven't had a lot to go on with you lately...I want to standby.

Vote Looker

Something I intended to do after his first post of the day.

[Oman]

1. They were lies, they were fundamentally wrong theory points. He was stating fact, not making opinion.

Bullshit

Now you're doing it too. Don't be hypocritical. Is that a lie and a falsehood, or are we differing on opinion. Quit appealing to emotion.

3. Finding townies is almost more useful than finding scum in those early days. I'll explain that later when I'm not late for work. I wanted to see who was going to call him scum to see where people were reading.

I'd be intersted to hear this. I know a deffo townie, but I see no reason to tell anyone else.

Especially in newbie games, this kind of extra SA often helps people with what to look for. Also, it shows where my mind is at (which is kind of what you want from Darklight, right? You want to know what he is thinking). Telling people is a bonus, unless you have something to hide. This is just my opinion though, and its perfectly valid to hide things for whatever reason.

4. That bit about "if CSL/Looker is scum Oman is his partner" looks like you know that Looker could turn up scum, and are trying to set up the neccesary mislynch after it. That said, I haven't had a lot to go on with you lately...I want to standby.

Doesn't apply now you've voted for Looker (unless you are sacrificing your partner)

[/quote]
Well, thats the point, I could be bussing or scumhunting. But yeah, I don't think it should matter because I already stated intention to vote on my first post of today.

[Oman]

Anyone who doesn’t answer a question is scummy in my eyes. A townie should always be helpful to the town (that is why I am suspicious of Oman) whenever they can, and that includes answering stupid questions as well.

I disagree. I think this is a narrow and simplistic view.

[Oman]

1. They were lies, they were fundamentally wrong theory points. He was stating fact, not making opinion.

Bullshit

Now you're doing it too. Don't be hypocritical. Is that a lie and a falsehood, or are we differing on opinion. Quit appealing to emotion.

Ox1de, any response to this? I think its fundamentally interesting and hypocritcal.



(Also, one for the books, I'm getting more and more suspicious of Ox1de myself. I'll bring up reasons later if I choose to vote him or it becomes unbearable. For now I want to see how it plays out.)

[Oman]

The key words there is

you think

not what townies should think.

I don't understand the isseu here. I think that there is room for townies to hide things from a) the town and b) the scum. I don't think there is an issue with townies lieing either in the correct circumstances. And I've said this for years, so I'd think that proves its not related to my alignment.

The only thing narrow and simplistic is your view.

Allowing people the flexitbility to make their own decisions vs conforming them to a single rule "thou shalt not lie or withhold". Which one seems more narrow there? Not to mention this line is a giant

NO U

What is narrow and simplistic about my post? Oh right, you probably won’t answer that.

No, I will, even though you're being rude and disrespectful.

You are telling people how to play. That they must not lie or withhold becaue its

bad

. With no room for option or flexibility. That is why its narrow.

What does a townie have to hide? The scum already know who the townies are, which means they know more than the townie do. Why not try to even the playing field by making the players around you a little more brighter?

So why aren't you getting into Ox1de for his comment about it being bad for me to say that PlayPlay was reading town? If i shouldn't hide anything, it was right for me to say that, isn't it? My problem is that forcing people to be open brings out powerroles (in more complex games), and confroms people to a single playstyle which doesn't fit all options, basically you back townies into a corner.

In fact, its quite a bad idea most of the time to constrain yourself because this game is built on people and is constantly evolving and changing. I.e. not only can you not play this game like they played mafia 1, but you can't play this game the same as you'd play a mini theme, or a large normal, or an open game.



Anyway, so just to confirm, the vote is because we disagree on a piece of mafia theory that townies can or cannot hide things from the town, right?


Also, there is one option you didn't look at for all your rude chastising, so maybe if you were a bit more open minded, you'd understand a bit more.

[Oman]

Arabian Snoopy...nice.

[Oman]

1. They were lies, they were fundamentally wrong theory points. He was stating fact, not making opinion.

Bullshit

Now you're doing it too. Don't be hypocritical. Is that a lie and a falsehood, or are we differing on opinion. Quit appealing to emotion.

Touche. My original argument disappears in a puff of hypocrisy.

<3

[Oman]

Sorry for the inactivity. I feel that Oxide was getting scummier (as I mentioned) and that hiphop is misrepresenting me. However, I have not yet determined whether that makes hiphop scummy. Standby for more.

[Oman]

Just noticed something suspicious about oman's last post,

So why aren't you getting into Ox1de for his comment about it being bad for me to say that PlayPlay was reading town?

Big deflection. That is very scummy.

mod can we get a vote count

This is such a small part of my post, its unfair to call it a deflection. Its a comment of your inconsistency. You'll see I do the same thing earlier to Ox1de re:emotional arguments.

Missing the majority of the argument to pick on a small piece that out of context is weak, and then pretending that destroys the argument is called Strawman arguments. And its wrong. And scummy.

[Oman]

I agree with Garnasha, DLA made a pretty poor move there regardless of Looker's alignment.


LookerTown: I'm going with DLA scum, but hiphop is definatly throwing up some terrible scummy arguments.

LookerScum: I'm drifting towards Ox1de (if he does flip scum I'll explain this, don't want to waste time doing it now)

[Oman]

My argument is still valid. You put up a straw man by highlighting a tiny part of my post and saying it was a deflection. Its not a defelction if its a sentence in a paragraph within a post. It is a deflection the way you've highlighted it.

It just looks way too contrived to be "oops I just noticed this".


Also, you bring your post there to "I'm not strawmanning, YOU ARE!"

[Oman]

I did say I would respond to the whole thing when I had time. That just stuck out like dog's balls as I flicked over.

[Oman]

Shit, as Garnasha said at the top, I'd better get this Ox1de case out now (just realised with night coming I might not wake up). Hopping to it!

[Oman]

First and formost is the way Ox1de jumped on my attacks on darklight once we'd found he was town, and then was entirely hypocritical about it:

1. They were lies, they were fundamentally wrong theory points. He was stating fact, not making opinion.

Bullshit

Now you're doing it too. Don't be hypocritical. Is that a lie and a falsehood, or are we differing on opinion. Quit appealing to emotion.

Touche. My original argument disappears in a puff of hypocrisy.

This looks to me like Ox1de just wants to look like he is the defender of the town.

I've been really enjoying this game.

I don't want to put much weight on this, but Ox1de has not been under heavy suspicion for most of the game. And I don't know about you guys, but that makes it fun when I'm scum Minor point here.

Two things:
1. I was the first person to vote on CSL/Looker (yesterday). I did actually back off for a bit to allow peeps to pitch in, but nothing's changed.

I see this completely differently. Ox1de voted looker, his scumbuddy, to distance himself. However, he had a change of heart when the wagon built, lifted the vote when it hit 3.

No, not DarkLight, it's Ox1de that's the scum. It's Ox1de that needs to die.

If looker comes up scum, Ox1de is scummy as hell. Looker seems just dumb enough to point this finger at his scum buddy, but has enough grasp on mafia theory to try to distance.

There is more, this was just the stuff I remembered from the last 3 pages.

[Oman]

Well, Oman, I'm disappointed in you for that weak attack. So much so, that I have to question your motivation.

You must have known that you were unlikely to be killed last night, so why the hurried post? I can't see any pro-town reason.

Remember that I'm still in and out of hospital, and still working, so I have very little time for mafia right now, the hurried post was due to it being in a gap between work and hospital for a bit.

I know it was weak when I posted it, there is more to come, but really, did you have to misunderstand two of my points Now i have to explain them when I have time. For now: the hospital. Peace.

[Oman]

I am so torn right now. I've never been so indecisive at this stage of a game.

I don't like ox1de, nor do I like hiphop or darklight. I feel rather trapped.

At least we have one up our sleeves, and I can only hope that scum do not quickhammer today if we're wrong.

Vote Darklight

The hammer was inexcusable, and there hasn't been much good gen on you anyway. I can go into more detail if the people wish, but I think this vote speaks for itself.

(NOTE: Agreeing with ox1de now doesn't mean I don't have suspicions of him as well).

[Oman]

I think Darklight is a better lynch than Ox1de.

[Oman]

No it doesn't, really, that kind of rapport with a scumbuddy often occurs. You share a bond because you're on the same side.

[Oman]

Darklight, Ox1de, then yourself. You seem manipulative, but it could be misunderstanding. Its something I've got my eye on, but you're down the list.

[Oman]

Uh, I should be suspecting myself? I don't get it. Like, at all.

[Oman]

My other top suspect is Oman. I find that Looker hammered soo stupidly and acted like an idiot just to get lynched. Then everyone knows oman to be IC and since he is so experienced and people trust him, he can just win the game easily.

Wait what? I'm scum because if I was scum I would be able to win easily? Thats...thats interesting.

I must've misunderstood there.

Do you want to join GreenDude and me?

Is this directed at me?

Anyway, Darklight is my top lynch suspect, Ox1de remains second, I'd be happy to consider hiphop vs Ox1de tomorrow morning if cases were put to me.

[Oman]

Well, join you in what?

[Oman]

The righteous lynch mob

Yeah? I don't really trust you anyway, so Darklight is my number one, you're my number two.

If you want me to lynch hiphop, you'll have to convince me tomorrow, or convince me today that he's scummier than Darklight.

[Oman]

I don't understand how pointing to two townies confuses us that much. He wouldn't make the post if he didn't have something to gain from it.

[Oman]

@oman: I didn't mean you were my other top suspect being scummy, but being dangerous. That you could be scum, and you could be town. And that it is very difficult to know which one you are because you are an IC and you are a good player. AND because looker hammered stupidly which got him lynched and it could be that he sacrificed himself knowing you were safe.

I don't know, I'm not the most dangerous right now. IF you were scum, you probably are, due to almost no suspcion on you. But yeah, I get where you're coming from. Its a common mistake for newbies to let the giant "what if" get under their skin and beat out the logic and probable scum they've compiled throughout simply because of the fear that they're wrong.

Oman you do know that if we don’t lynch scum today there will only be three people left. Unless Oxide, me and you are left, than convincing you that someone is scum, when one of us is dead is pointless.

Yup, I expect us three alive tomorrow though. Because of GreenDude's position as the swing vote today. (I mean, I'll talk about who I'd kill if I were scum tomorrow, based on the lynch, so that the scum can't steal my idea).

@Oman: Can you dust off your IC hat and tell me how to view a person in isolation?

Okay I don't believe that people should be viewed "in isolation" because context is a lot. However, it can be done, you just have to check a fair bit of context. If you go down the bottom of the page, select a name from the list, select oldest first and read through.

When reading in isolation you're looking for odd things that give you a bad vibe, not really evidence, just something to point you to it. (i.e. evidence requires context).


Also, tomorrow will be a very, very interesting day, I only hope I'm around to see it.

[Oman]

Reread, the vote the most scummy person, like I do every endgame-day.

Oh and I'm using all this "tomorrow" stuff in hypothetical. Its quite obvious I think Darklight to be the scummiest. Again, you misinterpret me.

[Oman]

*sigh* I thought it was pretty obvious that Darklight was at the top of my list. I didn't think it was neccesary to put in "If Darklight flips town..." at the start of every comment.

I wouldn't be voting the guy if I didn't think he would flip scum right now, would I? Its pretty fundamental mafia play.

[Oman]

I did answer that, I said I would reread and vote the most scummy (after a bit of discussion) like I was always do on endgame-days. And as to him being scum, i'd have to reread, but I've got a fair bit of faith in him now.

You said I expect for us three to be alive tomorrow, which means you expect Darklight to flip town. Which means you expect 0x1de or myself to be scum.

You're either dense or being deliberate hard to reason with here. Obviously I expect Darklight to be scum, otherwise I wouldn't be voting him. IF DARKLIGHT FLIPS TOWN then I expect the three of us alive.

Is this concept so hard to grasp? Am I the only one that feels this is obvious? Can someone else chime in so I don't go insane on this.

What's wrong with what if-ing?

It tends to throw suspicion where it isn't warranted and distracts the town. Also, it leads to constant double-guessing of onesself, and when you get to complex night actions like Vigilanttes and Bus Drivers, you can trick yourself into killing the wrong person (or if you're scum then double-guessing on your own kills) all based on a complex web of "but he could be scum!"

I mean, sometimes you have to make the D "this person is town, this person is scum". It doesn't mean you don't watch them, that is always going to be around. Like with playplay earlier this game, I wrote him as town early, and kept my eye on him (obviously not well enough because I didn't see who killed him ).

Just a thought.

[Oman]

IF DARKLIGHT FLIPS TOWN then I expect the three of us alive.

Now you say it. Next question, do you expect Darklight to flip scum?

Obviously.

[Oman]

Darklight: as I am almost sick of mentioning by now. IF you flip town, the scum is Ox1de or hiphop.

[Oman]

Very!

[Oman]

Not to step on GreenDude's toes, he might have another reason, but posting a suscpicions list is a great way to A) deliniate your thoughts, B) give information to the town as to why the mafia might want you dead if you're NKed, or C) Force scum to take a stance on something they don't normally like to be black and white on.

[Oman]

Mod: Votecount please

Official Vote Count:

DarkLightA(2): 0x1de, Oman

0x1de(2): hiphop, DarklightA

Not Voting(1): GreenDude

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

Note: Please remember to BOLD your requests so that I don't miss them when skimming!

Deadline is October 7

It hasn't changed on this page. Be kind to the mod and just scroll up a bit to check rather than asking for a votecount, it took less than 12 seconds to see that there were no bold "Vote"s between here and the last blue text.


Also, GreenDude I understand your reasoning for wanting to have more discussion, but the day is getting tedious. If we drag it out any more, I'll likely switch sides just to end it [/jokes]

[Oman]

I don't know exactly what is making you think Ox1de is town here. I can't see it.

[Oman]

I'll answer these in order:

1. True the IC does survive and get suspected. I believe I said it was a stupid theory because the scum can easily engineer it.

2. No comment

3. I said I thought playplay town, killing him would not confirm all my reads, as I even doubt myself in this game.

4. Oman is not saying that you're scummy if you live 'till tomorrow. We'll discuss that if it happens.

5. I tried to convince you that being unsure because someone *could* be dangerous was a stupid comment.

[Oman]

No, the original post says that if I were scum I would kill playplay to make the town trust my reads on people.

But the thing is, that one read doesn't neccesarily refer to another. I could be right on Playplay (as I was) but wrong on the next:

7for7 is all about this. Have a read, its an interesting topic

[Oman]

Its quite obvious Ox1de, I jump up his list after being part of his lynch, you drop down his list after not being part of it. He's got a terible case of the "Everyone who votes me is scum" or the "OMGUS!" mentality.

As to who is more scummy. I'm leaning towards hiphop. But I'd have to reread to get more. He just seems manipulative and dicey. Then again, you (Ox1de) has a real issue with interactions with our prior scum.

I'll have to check it and reread when we hit night, I still don't know if its even worth doing yet (we've likely won already).

[Oman]

I think Darklight is a better lynch than Ox1de.

This is perhaps the only "commanding" post I can see at this start of this day.

And its an opinion.

You want to show me where I...why am i even arguing, either you're town, you're dead, and it doesn't matter. Or you're scum, we win, and it doesn't matter.

[Oman]

Were you? I thought you sat on the "vote hiphop" side the whole time. I thought it was me, hiphop, and Greendude....

I could be wrong.

Anyway, I'm also not going to post that "scum interactions" thing until I actually have to (i.e. tomorrow).

[Oman]

Affirm, thats my mistake.

[Oman]

Unless GreenDude has absolutely played me, I'm pretty sure Oxide is the scum, not the least beacuse it makes little sense for GreenDude to leave me alive with Ox1de when hiphop is guarented Ox1de vote.

Going to reread. Suffice to say I'm suprised here.

[Oman]

Greendude, Regards me not killing you to throw suspicion you. Normally I'd agree with you, but don't forget that if I'm scum, I only need one vote on either of you to win (for this reason, don't vote willy-nilly, people!), so the best solution for me would be to leave hiphop alive who was perfectly capable of (and happy to) voting Ox1de leaving me to hammer for the win. It doesn't make sense that I'd leave you alive when I had an almost certain vote in my favour.

Thats why I'm also suspicious of you Greendude, because the worst outcome for would have been Ox1de and hiphop both alive, because I would have had no idea who to choose. This makes is strange that you've lived through it (unless my gut is right, you're town, and Ox1de has kept you around to stay on his side).

Well it wouldn't be too hard to pull the wool over your eyes: you've missed out on several recent events. Not only did you mix up me and hiphop, but you missed the bit where I said hiphop was town.

Wow, way to get hostile as soon as it gets to the crunch, you don't hold back do you?

[Oman]

But me putting suspicion on him < A certain vote for him. Do you get what I mean?

[Oman]

Oman is

not

right. hiphop had just started to suspect Oman, there wasn't a clear vote on me.

Hiphop was pretty much all over the place dude, he said a lot about mostly everyone. He never shifted a vote from you and made no indication of voting anyone but you today.

[Oman]

Vote Ox1de

If Ox1de is scum, I'm voting the right guy. If Greendude is scum, we lose anyway, so this is my only choice.

Is this a freudian slip? GreenDude says that not killing him puts suspicion on 0x1de, but you answer as if it puts suspicion on GreenDude. Which was probably what you were thinking when deciding who to kill.

The poor sentence fragment is actually showing that I wasn't focused when I wrote it, thus the dijointed nature.

Secret message returned: Imasa

It just doesn't makes sense for Omanscum to kill hiphop. Greendude had SAID he thought Ox1de was town, it would be SUCH A STUPID MOVE to kill hiphop instead. Hiphop at least had Ox1de pegged as scum, even if he was questioning everyone and making lots of accusations (my play also evidences that I didn't take him too seriously during the day yesterday, so to say I suddenly was afraid of him at night is silly.

Someone suspecting Ox1de already is a much better ally then someone I have to CONVINCE to help lynch Ox1de. It is such a bad play on my part to do that.

[Oman]

Unvote

Okay WTF are you doing man? Do you think I'm scum or not. I'm really tempted to keep this on you.

Explain away though.

[Oman]

I'll try to get Ox1de/Looker connections as well. Actually I have a lot to get on Ox1de that I said I would.

However, moving house + medical issues + medical-issues-with-flying-can-I-Continue-course etc, has left me with little time. I'll do my best.

[Oman]

Vote Greendude

Oman is the decider you are correct.

[Oman]

Okay...so where do I go with this game:

Firstly, this game was played excellently on pretty much everyone's part. As an IC I am really proud of the quality I saw here. As a player, I really enjoyed the bits of this game I wasn't in hospital for

[Oman]

Dammit! Accidentaly submitted instead of saving the above. Anyway, I was the scums, thats two for Greendude, and should be the end of the game. Once hiphop calls it I have every intention of doing an IC Q&A/Debrief for anyone who wants to be involved. Its voluntary, but recomended, as there are several things I really wanted to bring up in post game.

[Oman]

Well, that went really slow towards the end. And then very sudden.

I did say in my "testament" someone should look through my interactions with Oman. Anyway, next time I'm going to go with Albert's advice and play like him: sink your teeth into someone and don't let go. It'd have won here.

I'll come back to this later, but you were right for all the wrong reasons. I got out of your grasp by (IIRC) not telling a single lie. Also, never say "I will play like Albert" ever, please, I like you, and I want to keep liking you. Sinking your teeth in would have won here, but (as I mentioned) you were so wrong on the why, it just as easily could have been any other Townie.

[Oman]

Ox1de is completely correct. I killed hiphop because he was annoyingly unpredictable, and I sort of wanted to give you Newbies an endgame, instead of just having this day speed by.

I'm pretty limited on my time, so I didn't want to have to try to talk sense to Ox1de or hiphop, and I figured that Greendude would have the same thought I would: That hiphop was Ox1de's logical kill.

It's also correct: that

if Oman had been around when you voted me, then you'd have lost the game.

This is correct too

He's a confident

and good

player, so he probably felt up to the challenge

My interactions with looker were quite damning, I'm suprised I didn't hang for it originally.

[Oman]

Thanks for running this

hohum

Does anyone have any questions?

I'd also like to point out that I don't think I ever lied about mafia theory in this game. Don't discount me because I wanted to kill you.

[Oman]

You were NKed for a several small reasons, the major one being that as scum I tend to play towards the endgame I want rather than the next day. Unfortuantly, I wanted to kill Ox1de much earlier in this one, but you took his place. Simply because you've seen me play as scum, you've made the wrong decision once, and your first inclination would be against making that again (for this reason, I probably seemed a lot scummier than I would of otherwise).

You would have to be convinced I was town, and that wasn't really a game I like to play. Avoiding a slip is always easier than building a case.

[Oman]

You pretty much answered your own question. All I wanted was you to doubt yourself. And the best way to do it was to keep you alive.