Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[forbiddanlight]

/confirm.

[forbiddanlight]

NABNAB! *glomps*

[forbiddanlight]

Also, the longer the day goes on, the more the scum can try to daytalk- which is an immensely powerful tool for them if we don't spot it.

Do you mean in thread or by PM? This is important.

I also don't mind random allocation since it can allow for narrowing the choices. The scum can't afford to give up too many chances to sabotage, so we can either create safe or unsafe groups, and starting one randomly can...do something...

Ok, I had some train of thought here that made sense and I don't know exactly how to say it. I think it involves throwing off coordination of scum parties.

[forbiddanlight]

Rishi stated in the first post that spy can't communicate outside this thread.

Thank you for telling him the answer I was looking for and effectively ruining any plans I have.

Could people, maybe, in the future not answer questions not directed at them?

Hell, actually, you merit an FoS for that.

FoS Psycho

[forbiddanlight]

If you were indeed asking a question which was supposed to catch someone in a slip, why would you signpost it so obviously with "This is important."?

Was it supposed to be a slip? It still might be salvageable.

There is also the fact that contrary to what she seems to be implying, there was no opportunity to "catch someone in a slip" here. Scum cannot daytalk, it says so in the rules.

Again, I never said that

Fishy could either have replied "no, they cannot day-talk, it says so in the rules", or "they can day-talk". Neither of these constitutes a "slip" though. The former is simply true, and the latter is hardly a slip on his part- it is just wrong, but doesn't prove his towniness because it's still subject to WIFOM like every apparent instance of "not reading the rules" is. I therefore question the basis of her FoS on PsychoSniper.

I question ortolans need to spoil the plan.

FoS ort

.

Seriously, I wouldn't confirm Fish over it, but it would have made me feel better about him.

[forbiddanlight]

FOS: forbiddanlight

No one pass a set of plans to her please.

FoS ABR

I felt like OMGUSing.

[forbiddanlight]

O.K. so forbiddanlight basically outed herself as imperial spy.

And your logic about this is?

I don't think it's so hard to understand why Psycho and ort are scummy, but apparently people's brains on in the off position tonight.

[forbiddanlight]

You are willing to declare us both scum because we "sabotaged" your plan (although you already claimed it was entirely ruined before I at least posted, anyhow) which amounted to an attempt to "confirm" a player which 1) was unlikely to garner the desired response and 2) would have been pretty much entirely worthless due to rule-misunderstanding-WIFOM anyhow and 3) you had already made enough attempts to sabotage it yourself by signposting it so blatantly

Actually, I had realized it wasn't completely ruined...Until you ABSOLUTELY explained the whole damn thing. Subtlety will not work. You've pinged my scumdar, as well as Sniper.

Do you mean in thread or by PM? This is important.

Thread.

Matters not now. But thank you.

FoS: Fishy based on current calculations, I urge you all to vote nay to this distribution.

Could you suggest what we do instead?

I'm not sure I understand the math, but I also tend to try to avoid thinking about it since I don't like it much. However, I'm tentatively

UnFoS: ortolan

because it feels less likely ort would work so hard to get the correct math. Of course, it could be WIFOM and all, but yeah...

[forbiddanlight]

And FL, Fishy's use of the phrase "if we don't spot it" made it painfully obvious that he was talking about scum using secret conversation in the thread.

Never assume anything is obvious with me. I seem to get in these arguments often.

[forbiddanlight]

You want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example. A comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

Just to get this on the record, are you calling him out as a townie slipping up or as scum who probably shouldn't (should?) get the plans?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you think that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

And...this comes off as overdefensive.

REALLY overdefensive.

[forbiddanlight]

If scum, certainly shouldn't, having declared intention.
I think that this comment could be daytalking, or it could be a slip. I really don't know. I think this sort of comment should be very deliberately and carefully not made in a way which could give any indication as to your own intentions.

I understand.

And mostly I thought part of the random process was seeing if scum get ferretted out, but then again, risking a base like that is probably a bad idea anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.
I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

I was going to make a joke here, and then realized that it might be misinterpreted

So, I'll stick with, that still feels like you are just going off and overall defending too hard...if that's understandable.

[forbiddanlight]

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

Hmm...this feels off but I might be biased.

Either way, I'm just here to raise my PPD.

No, seriously. I have nothing important to say on the subject until more stuff happens.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not fitting your meta of me? Not from when in Explosiva when I made a bunch of giant posts right before I was lynched just so I wouldn't be lynched because I was a "lurker?" I'm always concerned with being productive as town... I don't always succeed but I'm concerned about that.

It's not about meta, actually. I've kinda stopped trying to meta people because I suck at it. It's more the way you said it comes off as contradictory.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, based on the current discussion, I would vote against the current proposal. I'm ok with ABR and NN but we shouldn't give the plans to Crazy.

I'm leaning this way myself. Reroll?

[forbiddanlight]

Why's everyone talking about voting against the proposal? The rules clearly states (and capitalized for good measure) that proposals, once made, can't be retracted. Any chance of voting we might have had was lost once Fishy stated his proposal in bold.

Umu...did you read all the rules? It says we can REJECT the proposal. Granted, I missed the fact that we can't CHANGE it, but we still vote to reject or accept the proposal, and then it moves to the next day.

[forbiddanlight]

You're right, I misread part of the rules too, my bad.

But I still believe it makes more sense to keep some scummier-looking players in the proposal. Unless we have reason to suspect both ABR and NN as well, I see no reason to cahnge the random setup.

We only have three bases. But I understand what you are getting at...

And actually, if we suspected either ABR or NN, then we'd probably want to keep the set up. Because then we'd have a sabotage clusterfuck that could give us a lot of information. With just one scum though...

[forbiddanlight]

Me, veerus, KoC. Sounds like a good start.

Auto reject

I don't do self noms

Why?

FL, who do you want to send in?

Haven't decided.

I'm far more interested about those to rejected it, all of them. Do you object to this random assignment because you already have the specific "candidates" you want in mind? Or is it just because you object to any particular person getting the plan.

Already covered this myself. Crazy will definitely NOT be receiving the plans.

I endorse any plan that ends in me being given a plan. ortolan's massive wall of math could either be intended to drown players who don't have time for that shit (me) or give the semblance of effort to make less active players look bad. Incident'ly, I cannot remember a single Veerus post all day of any substance. THerefore, I would suggest a me/Veerus/ortolan Proposal, although obviously I would be willing to compromise on one of the three in order to get at least two of them up in the spotlight.

I was leaning putting ort in. I wish people would stop self nomming. It makes me nervous and more likely to reject you.


Currently leaning ort, NabNab and...veerus.

Who doesn't like this?

[forbiddanlight]

ABR is not doing anything to make me more comfortable about giving him plans. At all.

Nabakov probably her russian liaison. Definitely no plans for both of them.

Any case for this?

I'll give you all the logic behind my proposal when I get back from work tonight.

[forbiddanlight]

ABR is fitting his meta - oh so very angry and jackassish.
Unfortunately, this is his meta for EVERY role. So I have no idea.

Oh, thanks for enlightening me. I'm not even going to try classing him, and just safely keep him OUT of the pool.

I think forbiddan is scum; I'd be against putting her in a proposal with anybody except someone else that I thought was obvscum.

I love how everyone is vaguely alluding to me being scum without any case. I didn't know because the set up was different that this could work.

Anyway, choices explanation

ort- appears to be putting too much effort into checking Fishy's math and such. It's WIFOM, and he's probably who I'm least solid on, but I still feel he's town.

NabNab- Is awesome. Oh, and he is actively scumhunting, questioning things, and the fact I think he was among the first to explain why random was not the greatest idea in the world.

veerus- I have gotten no scum vibe from him, and overall felt he's town.

Why yes, I am going for three 7s and trying to get three townies in on the proposal. I think the math was already done for why one should exclude themself.

Of course, I'm up for listening to other ideas. Well thought out and explained ones, I mean.

[forbiddanlight]

I am against Nabakov. REPICK.

Yes, because you are the embodiment of the town.

How about Fishy, Veerus and Psycho?

That's...actually acceptable, with my bet on Psycho being the scum if we get a sabotage act.

But, I'd like to see what other people say.

[forbiddanlight]

Honestly, the BEST way to proceed is to have NO DISCUSSION, and group THREE SPIES TOGETHER.

Best case scenario they all sabotage and we have three CONFIRMED SPIES.

HOWEVER, if they can COORDINATE who is sabotaging and who isn't, then we are SCREWED.

DISCUSSION HURTS THE TOWN. FL AND NABAKOV --> EXTREMELY SUSPICIOUS.

I don't precisely see it that way, but I understand your point. I personally think discussions helps us find the spies to group together.

Btw I'm NOT aiming to group 3 spies together at this point, because Nabakov and FL have flapped their mouths far too much so its likely they have breadcrumbed their potential action already.

Maybe you should point out where we've done so? I don't see anywhere in EITHER of our discussions that could be daytalk, so to speak

[forbiddanlight]

Good job, you've just told you're fellow scum that "Hey, if you get grouped with Psycho, feel free to sabotage, because we'll just blame it on him!"

This post is a far better example of possible scum communication than anything Crazy has posted so far.

Seriously, stop giving scum hints of what to do, intentional or not!

Defensiveness? in MY mafia game? how can this BE!?

Actually, this just makes me more sure of a nice little chainsaw.

Def no plan giving to crazy or psycho unless we are going for 3 spies.

@FL: Why do you want townies on the proposal?

We have three bases. I want to make sure we lose as few bases as possible while destroying the imperial bases. I'd rather have the most leeway when we play pick 5 rather than have it on the wire.

For now, I'd rather try hitting three townies then give them a base for free.

That's bullshit Nabakov.

The way to win, is to have two scum sabotage at the same time in a group of three. We then proceed to eliminate those three from the pool, which leaves us with 6 players, 5 of which are town. Much better odds.

Where do you get these numbers again? If two sabotage out of three, there is a chance one of the three is town, meaning if we fully eliminate them, you are guaranteeing a scum spot.

4 of which are town, actually. This increases our odds. As it has been said countless times already, there is very little discussion to be had before the first draft in the first place.

And how can we be certain of this either? Scum can choose not to sabotage.

If you think they have breadcrumbed, show us. Breadcrumbs must be there for all to see. They are an intolerably risky tactic for the scum.
Logic + Scumhunting > Logic

I like you Fishy ^-^

I didn't see any, but encouraging discussion when there's no need for it is scummy in and of itself.

You have not adequately proven discussion is evil. Could you please get around to that?

[forbiddanlight]

My suspicion of forbiddanlight involves Post #24... it was obvious what Fishy meant, so what FL was doing looks like fake scumhunting. Certainly that's scummier than my *ultra-gasp* OVERDEFENSIVENESS!

Could you quote what precisely is objectionable?

And it wasn't precisely your overdefensiveness, it was more the fact that you felt the need to assure us it wasn't daytalk.

And I'm really liking ABR now... I didn't consider that multiple sabotages was the best option for town, but he's absolutely right.

Despite everyone saying so already?

If we're going for a townie ticket, there is no reason for FL to exclude herself. Opposed as I am to a townie ticket, I could stomach something like FL/me/ort or FL/me/NabNab. I would still favour a scummy ticket- perhaps Crazy/Pyscho/veerus is the best, as people who were all in favour of my proposal yesterday (or fence sat until it was too late), and hence are correlated, and individually don't look all that good.

That's a good point I didn't consider. I was establishing the other four I think are townies, and kinda forgot the fact I should probably include myself. I could go with me, you, and NabNab. I really don't want to waste our bases too early as I said, but if I'm in a minority opinion on this, I'll put up a 3 spy proposal.

What was the purpose of making this post?

I have no idea. I didn't make it. Quote properly please?

Well he has, you know he has kind of been calling you obv-scum the whole game, so this isn't much of a surprise. (For reference I'm inclined to view the ABR-FL thing as distancing because I don't think either are pro-town at all).

That's true, but generally I'll not outright say someone is scum just for accusing me. But usually having good logic behind the accusation is a good way to prevent me from countersuspecting.

Emotion has no place in this game. Attempting some horrid reverse psychological WIFOM when you are in fact town does not seem optimal to me.

I'll play my way you play yours. Further, I didn't isolate what made me nervous about it. to elaborate, if someone self noms, it removes information about what their preferences are.

Re-read veerus' posts and tell me if you think this assessment is genuine (I don't think it is).

in me Nab and veerus I would expect veerus to sabotage, especially with FL's support for this combination.

I'll re read him soon.

So you think someone is likely to sabotage but still support the idea? Interesting.

Nice misrep. I never said he was likely to sabotage, I said if someone sabotaged it would be him.

[forbiddanlight]

You asked what Fishy meant in that quote, when it was painfully obvious what he meant.

What's wrong with assuring you guys that it wasn't daytalk?

The fact you felt the need to when it really wasn't necessary.

You made it seem like it was.

Oh, and I didn't think it was obvious. Can you explain how it was scummy to not think so?

Why the heck is FL on a "townie ticket?!" If she nominates herself and two other people on the basis of getting 3 townies, I will definitely not accept.

Because I'm not scum? Or the fact that assumably, I think I'm town, so therefore, from my point of view, any proposal I make to have three townies should include me.

[forbiddanlight]

Someone says your scum and that was a breadcrumb, what do you expect me to do? Say, oh yeah, it was? What would you have expected me to do?

Not make as big a deal out of it. You came off like you got caught.

Fishy used the phrase "if we don't spot it." How could we spot daytalk by PM? I understand you're trying to "seek a special answer" but it was obvious what he meant... so your whole thing just seems fake.

I didn't read it as such. I really can't give you any other answer because you are spinning something out of nothing :s.

Yes, okay, but that wasn't addressed to you, though. That was addressed to Fishy... I was asking him why you were deserving of being on a townie ticket.

Soooooooooooooory

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, how about this. Let's start simple.

I'd like everyone to vote between random proposal and guided proposal

We'll work from there. Only cast one vote please. And explain your choice.

I support a guided proposal

I think we'll get more information out of a guided proposal as well as lower the risk of losing bases early as opposed to randoming.

[forbiddanlight]

Guided: forbiddanlight, Crazy, Fishy
Random: KnightsofCydonia, veerus, ABR

And ort, you didn't choose one?

And KoC, just for convenience could you link the post that you explain why?

[forbiddanlight]

I have always wanted guided

I figured so, but I wanted it directly out there.


Guided: forbiddanlight, Crazy, Fishy, ort
Random: KnightsofCydonia, veerus, ABR , Psycho

And it's up to...NabNab.

[forbiddanlight]

If I don't like FL's proposal, I can still reject it. Just because I support a guided proposal doesn't mean I support forbiddan's guided proposal.

You do realize by guided I mean ask the town who I should put on there. We'll see what Nabby says.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, so we are doing guided.

Next vote. Pick three people to go on the proposal. Whichever three are most mentioned get on. Sound fair? Explanations appreciated.

I'd like

forbiddanlight

NabakovNabakov

Fishythefish

I know I'm town, and I trust NabNab and Fishy to be town. I'm going for an all townie ticket to make sure we have as much leeway as possible for when we reach 5 plans.

[forbiddanlight]

I ain't voting shit. Make your proposal and if I don't like it I'll vote no.

You do realize guided proposal meant that the WHOLE FUCKING TOWN gives picks so we GET FUCKING INFORMATION.

So, do so ^-^

Quickly, scumbag.

Yeah, changed my mind about that with myself when I vaguely addressed the numbers. Excluding myself and going for an all town ticket is not a good idea.

[forbiddanlight]

Well aren't you just loving today.

Can you show me why I'm scum?

Cause...thus far you've failed to do so.

At all.

[forbiddanlight]

Well my beloved forbiddanlight, all you have to do is read the part of your pm where it says SCUM in big bolded letters. Thick-headed doofus, do you think I'm the only one that thinks you're scum?

So far, the only people that have expressed me being scum are...the scum.

It's rather intriguing.

And unlike what you have on me, there ARE actual cases on the people accusing me. Such as the fact you seem to think cases aren't necessary. And have done nothing to contribute to the town. Oh, and now refuse to divulge which scumbuddies you'd give the plans to. Good job.

[forbiddanlight]

Umu...yeah...not gonna fly. Essentially, you are willfully withholding information from the town. Do you have a good reason to do so? At all?

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah...um...you didn't really explain anything at all with that. I don't even know where "my ignorance" comes into this.

[forbiddanlight]

We get way more information from you simply making a proposal with who you think should get the plans.

I made one, didn't I?

How do we get way more information from JUST me making a proposal?

[forbiddanlight]

Because then we see who accepts and who declines, not just empty words. Its not anyone's turn to make a proposal but yours. So, make your proposal to the mod.

How about instead the town gives me their consensus. You know, like they voted for (granted, it was a close vote)

You are the only person I've been talking to this entire rl day. I want other people to post.

[forbiddanlight]

Consensus means concessions. It means scum can mess up with the choices more.

Yes dear, we get it. Let the other people talk about it too now ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey blowscum, take it easy

Your ironing has fallen flat. Which I suppose was the point.

I don't like the "whoever is mentioned most" idea either- it won't necessarily lead to a group of three people who make sense as a proposal together.

You do have a point here...I didn't consider that.

While I don't agree with ABR's frankly psychotic attacks in the main, I do agree that FL's flip-flop on self-nomination is extremely scummy. Therefore, I will support any proposal that doesn't include FL or ABR.

Can you show me how it was?

Think about it for a second. And reread my posts. The transition from lines of thought is quite well delineated.

I'd go me, ABR, and Psycho atm, though I definitely know I'm in the minority here.

Going for three spies?

Let's just random and get this over with. At this rate we will never agree to anything a single person will propose and I'm pretty sure we're way beyond our original 72 hour deadline.

There was a deadline?

And even though it was barely, we didn't agree to random.

If others weigh in saying I should just put forward my proposal, I will.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey dumbass, why do you think I'm a spy?

Already covered. You suggest I read your posts, but how about you read mine?

However, for ease and convenience, you quite simply refuse to give any reasons why I'm scum while accusing me, you use personal attacks, which is quite frankly, a horrible way to play as town (I'll pull up the post on it in a bit if I have to), you for some reason think discussion is deadly but have not fully explained why, and overall have been doing NOTHING to assist the town.

[forbiddanlight]

1) You try to extend the days as much as possible.

Why is this bad?

2) You contradict yourself.

Examples? The whole self nom thing is rather well delineated.

3) You buddy up with other players too much

I do that as either alignment. So what if I'm friendly?

[forbiddanlight]

Ok...so, should I just put forward the proposal I put or should we do guided? I'm not sure what you all are saying, and now I notice rebel lists being made.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

Well, I honestly don't care about your opinion because I feel that you are scum and pretty obviously trying to mislead me. But whatever.

[forbiddanlight]

How am I trying to mislead you? I've hardly stuck to the same opinion for more than 5 minutes at a time in this game, and my last post clearly didn't have a point at all.

That post came out badly. What I meant was mislead the town...it was badly phrased.

[forbiddanlight]

I also did not like the reason for various players saying "I'm voting against this because I want Crazy out of it.", which was what about 3-4 players have stated. I didn't think anyone was trying to get an all-town group at the time, it was already established how unlikely it was to happen. I raised the question because I was confused by where most of them stood. It seemed to me like most of them agreed it made sense to have scum in the group....but they didn't like the proposal because they think a scum was in it.

A

scum. You notice most people wanted 2+ or 0, right?

And yes, I do want the random proposal, for the simple reason that it was random and give scum no chance to collaborate. I still do want it random, if it wasn't already outvoted by the town.

I'm just curious why you can't just play breadcrumb patrol to actually catch the scum collaborating? I think that'd give more information/evidence.

Ok, so, rebel list

me, Nabnab, ort, Fishy, and veerus/KoC.

I don't know which of veerus or KoC is the rebel, but they are about on equal footing for me.

[forbiddanlight]

At the moment, I'll say Me Psycho ABR Veerus Fishy, but certainly don't kill me if I change my mind by my next post.

To our chagrin, we can't kill anyone .

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan: Okay, she's not as bad as I thought, but sorry, I still don't think she's pro-town. What I noticed this time were her paranoid FoS's on Psycho and Ort for ruining her line of questioning with Fishy. Ort even made a special point to note that it was a futile question, yet she still FoSed him for it and never actually explained why it wasn't futile. She seemed so eager in that question, despite the answer being both obvious (Fishy said "if we don't notice it.") and not very useful even if she got it. So yeah, major fakeness alert.

Excuse me if I got a little eager over what I thought was catching a slip. What makes it fake compared to overexcited town?

And further, KoC feels tacked on in your list...

[forbiddanlight]

Because there wasn't a point to begin with. Can you just say what you were hoping to gain from Fishy's response, because I seriously don't see anything. What was the "slip" that you just said you thought you caught?

It was more an anti slip actually. I was hoping that he would have carelessly forgotten the scum can't night talk and thusly been more likely to be town.

I think your points on KoC are sound, and I'm glad you shared them. It's...intriguing.

[forbiddanlight]

I already have. I didn't know if you all had decided what you were doing.

Fine, let me do it

Proposal: NabakovNabakov, FishytheFish, and forbiddanlight get sets of plans

[forbiddanlight]

Why those 3?

If you'd been reading, you know it's on the top of page 8

Looks like ahmadinejad finally made his move. If you accept the proposal, you help the terrorists win.

You're right, we do! Because, yanno, technically, WE are the terrorists if you think about it. Glad I finally got you to see that ^-^

(You know, rebels, etc. imperial people probably think we suck...yeah)

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, the terrorists, as in Al-Qaeda, the Iranian Islamic government, and other affiliated factions.

That would be pretty awesome actually if a mafia game could effect real world things like that.

So, is this appeal to ridiculosity all you have?

[forbiddanlight]

That would be pretty awesome actually if Forbiddanlight wasn't scum.

/me sighs.

I swear, I wish you'd stop confusing your role PM for mine. I mean, it gets tiring ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

I swear, I really wish you'd stop confusing me for your dad. Its getting...yeah.

At this point it is manifestly obvious you had nothing NEAR a good comeback.

[forbiddanlight]

This argument sucks. It's just a flame-war with the energy of a melted candle. What's the point?

I'm doing it for more ppd ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

ewww FL was born in the same year as me *throws up*

Oh really? Geez, that does suck.

/tsun-tsun

[forbiddanlight]

FL is the worse-looking player here, and its no secret she's on my scumlist.

What's secret is the case behind it

I have some misgivings about FL's proposal. Even though it was "well documented" I am unsettled by FL's flip-flop from supporting to rejecting self-noms. If FL were actually a rebel, it should not have been an epiphany to her that she should be included in a rebel-based proposal. The flip-flop would have been avoided because the flop was obvious from the start.

Not much I can say about this. Apparently I really suck at observing the obvious :S

[forbiddanlight]

I have found FL scummy and if we sent the three that she's proposed in I would expect her to defect.

Did you ever explain this? I'm getting tired of being called scum without any real reasoning, sooo...

Well, actually, considering she's pretty much been written off as scum by quite a few people already I see little reason for her not to get in a sabotage and practically confirm herself as scum. Then we still need to work out who the other three scum are anyway, plus she wouldn't really be demonstrating something we didn't already know.

Again, has this been explained at all?

I really don't get where the FL obvscum contingent is coming from. As far as I can see, it's all based on one irrelevant question she asked.

Yeah, that's about what I've seen...

It was all the stuff about her claiming people were scummy early in the game for "ruining" her questions about scum talking and such. That and her seeming lack of confidence in the fact she herself is town.

Thank you for FINALLY coming out with the case.

A shame I already answered this and no one really responded further...

Scummy. The day ending with one sabotage which pretty much proves fl is scum, which we already know, gets the rebels no closer to their win-con.

Gonna laugh my ass off when there are no sabotages then

Well, whatever, I made the proposal, so it's up to you whether to accept it or not.

I'm kinda done with trying to argue with simple minded fools who can't be bothered to make coherent cases.

[forbiddanlight]

I bet I'm more frustrated than you are. The fact that ort can do the exact same thing I did and he is still on everyone's townlist and I'm still on everyone's scumlist infuriates me. How am I different from ort now, really? Even my reaction isn't any scummier than his "FORBIDDANLIGHT YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY DEFECT" now.

This isn't to say that I really think he's scum... I'm still guessing he's town, but for those who are saying that I'm scum because I made a "breadcrumb", they should at least think he's scum, too.

To be fair, I thought you were scum for your reaction to the accusation, not the actual "breadcrumb" itself. However, this is a slight contradiction since you were the one who pointed out the supposed breadcrumb of ort.

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that earlier, and even if he didn't, I did.

Even if you did, if he didn't then it doesn't mean much beyond piggybacking. You all hardly have a leg to stand on and suddenly I'm public enemy number one :S

[forbiddanlight]

Not very likely, to be honest. But why the heck would we want to take a chance if we don't have to?

At this point you might as well reject every proposal and make the game go on forever

I'll admit I was a little jumpy, but "overdefensiveness" is the crappiest scum-tell in the book. And if you want to go by reactions, ort's is certainly no more jumpy than mine, isn't it?

I dunno. it's more how it's expressed. Exasperation is one thing, but it's another when it's kinda...argh...I don't really know a good word for it...

It more felt like you were responding to getting caught than responding to stupid cases.

[forbiddanlight]

You can use that craplogic to accept any proposal. If you are so impatient, why didn't you vote to accept the first proposal?

Because it had one scum on it.

I'm just saying what you claim is "breadcrumbing" probably wasn't, and the fact you don't find it likely that it is, but don't want to take a chance is basically a sweeping argument for never voting yes. I was using a fallacy to point out craplogic, as you so put it.

Pff, whatever. And you complain about the flimsy cases on you.

Nyeh, it's a shame that you really have done nothing to make me feel you are pro town.

[forbiddanlight]

Fair enough. But when there's a good proposal and no possible breadcrumbs, I'll accept that. Here, ort shouldn't have said what he said, and he knows it. I shouldn't have said what I said with the first proposal.

And ABR isn't scum anymore?

He wasn't when I initially rejected the proposal. That was the mindset I was talking about.

Your new stance is fairer.

Well, what can I say to that? You pwned me, seriously.

Honestly, there is nothing you can say to that. It's more a call to do pro town actions, though confirmation bias in a very annoying thing that I have trouble getting over.

[forbiddanlight]

Psycho, good job, you effectively made it impossible for us to get much info out of this proposal unless there is not a sabotage.

And then we get into WIFOM games.

[forbiddanlight]

Although, I'll tell you, my favorite scum-tell is when someone is making an effort to try to look like they're scum-hunting when they are really not doing anything at all.

Actually, it'd be fairer to say I was town hunting with the intent of my question, to be honest.

In the past, people have mistakenly taken me defending myself as me trying to confirm myself as town, when in reality I'm just trying to refute the case. I now try to show my motive more clearly by making sentences like that.

Nyeh, I begin to think in this game you are damned no matter what you do, lol .

[forbiddanlight]

Okay. My point still stands, though.

I don't think so. It was early game. I was looking for anything I could find.

[forbiddanlight]

I hope you guys have a great game though. FL gonna be happy at least lol

Not really. You are fun to play with ^-^. I enjoy spatting in these games. It's rather hilarious .

Hey guys my internet is going to be cut off soon, so I won't have regular access anymore. I assure you there was no way I could predict this happening.

...I do hope you get it back soon.

[forbiddanlight]

I actually forgot Veerus and NabNab were my fellow rebels. Forget who I thought my allies WERE, but it was pretty amusing.

And yeah, rather irritated at how badly I had messed up with not including myself in the proposal initially. And yes, I was going to accept the fact I was obvscum after I sabotaged, though I think you all knew that.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait, you were going to sabotoge? I voted for the proposal with the understanding that neither of us would sabotoge. To me, the best strategy would have been having as many scum as possible on initial proposals doing nothing at all. By the time 5-man proposals rolled around, the town would be too confused/underinformed to hit the nail on the head. I also felt the scum had a massive advantage. Having one or two more town than were needed in the final round probably would have evened things out.

Maybe this is why town had a chance. I was basically ready to sacrifice myself because I figured I was caught anyway. I favored a more hit them hard and fast approach.