Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[forbiddanlight]

And FL, Fishy's use of the phrase "if we don't spot it" made it painfully obvious that he was talking about scum using secret conversation in the thread.

Never assume anything is obvious with me. I seem to get in these arguments often.

[NabakovNabakov]

When I signed up, I always thought that the first decision would be rather arbitrary.

Either:

a) Nobody sabotages and we destroy an Imperial base. 1/3. We don't get much information, but getting a point can't be a bad thing.
b) Somebody or multiple people sabotage, in which case we gain information to use in following rounds.

In subsequent rounds, I definitely think we should try to get as many pro-town people as possible, but here, I don't think it matters that much, because whatever happens, we benefit. Fishy might be right that the least ideal situation is exactly one spy in the group; I don't know about that, and I don't think it's necessarily true that that spy will always sabotage. *shrug*

Basically, I'll approve any proposal the first day, because I don't think it will make much of a difference in the long run.

That roughly approximates the two things that can happen, but if we act intelligently, we can attempt to push the result towards what would be best for the town. Also, the more thought and discussion that goes into choosing who gets the plans, the more we can use whatever information is gathered. Knowing "X of Y" people sabotoged is one thing, knowing who stumped for who, who voted against the plan, what the person in charge was thinking (etc.), is something entirely different.

In terms of deciding which result works best for the town, the one thing that concerns me greatly is the fact that winning the game will mean winning an incredibly difficult final round. By the time 2 Imperial bases have been destroyed, the plan count will be at 5, exactly equal to the number of townies. Winning will essentially entail a flawless identification of the entire town, and we can't do that without information of the best quality. In my view, getting that information means holding rigorous discussions and attempting to snare as many scummy players as possible in the early rounds. Random assignment just doesn't do the trick.

And in case anybody is wondering, in a game like this with relatively incognita terra, setup discussion will be more than a sufficient conversation starter and scumtell generator for D1. Everybody has plan, and having a bad plan could be an intentional effort to hurt the town.

[Fishythefish]

The thing is, setup discussion works just as well tomorrow. I think that, without information, we are unlikely to be able to make a better than random selection. There are four scum. They have three decisions to guide- it's not going to be difficult for them to make one of them go the right way, and that's probably all it will take, to push us from two scum to 1 or 0 to 2.

If discussion of the decision is not going to get us a better than random result (today), it is a hugely artificial thing, and isn't going to produce good information. If someone can convince me that we are likely going to get a better result by discussion, I'll vote no for the proposal.

[Crazy]

Okay, so I guess what this comes down to is what

is

the best situation for town Day 1? As for me, I really have no idea whether destroying an Imperial base or getting solid information is more important at this point.. If we're going to discuss stuff, then we have to discuss stuff in order to get to a certain conclusion. I suppose I'm fine with random because I just don't know what situation is most ideal for today.

[Fishythefish]

On reflection, I've changed my mind. I'm not sure randomness is the way to go.
I think the following is worth considering:
Split the town up into three blocks of three, taken at random. Assign the plans to one of them, based on discussion- probably go for the block which we guess has the most scum in it, but anyway the aim should surely be to avoid just one scum on the plans.
The good thing about this method is it negates micro manipulation from the scum. It would take a lot more skill to get us to choose the wrong set of three players than to get us to get just one player wrong.
The random odds are unaffected (as, clearly, each set of three players is still equally likely to get the plans).

In subsequent rounds, I definitely think we should try to get as many pro-town people as possible, but here, I don't think it matters that much, because whatever happens, we benefit. Fishy might be right that the least ideal situation is exactly one spy in the group; I don't know about that,

and I don't think it's necessarily true that that spy will always sabotage.

*shrug*

You want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example. A comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

[forbiddanlight]

You want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example. A comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

Just to get this on the record, are you calling him out as a townie slipping up or as scum who probably shouldn't (should?) get the plans?

[Crazy]

Y

ou want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example.

A

comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you

think

that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

[Fishythefish]

Just to get this on the record, are you calling him out as a townie slipping up or as scum who probably shouldn't (should?) get the plans?

If scum, certainly shouldn't, having declared intention.
I think that this comment could be daytalking, or it could be a slip. I really don't know. I think this sort of comment should be very deliberately and carefully not made in a way which could give any indication as to your own intentions.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you think that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

And...this comes off as overdefensive.

REALLY overdefensive.

[Fishythefish]

Y

ou want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example.

A

comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you

think

that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

There is a clear difference between highlighting arbitrary letters and discussing what scum may or may not do at night.

[forbiddanlight]

If scum, certainly shouldn't, having declared intention.
I think that this comment could be daytalking, or it could be a slip. I really don't know. I think this sort of comment should be very deliberately and carefully not made in a way which could give any indication as to your own intentions.

I understand.

And mostly I thought part of the random process was seeing if scum get ferretted out, but then again, risking a base like that is probably a bad idea anyway.

[Crazy]

Y

ou want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example.

A

comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you

think

that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

There is a clear difference between highlighting arbitrary letters and discussing what scum may or may not do at night.

But my post had a clear meaning... I was discussing that scum might not always sabotage if there was only one of them. If I'm scum and I'm the only scum that received a plan, then why would I need to breadcrumb my action.

Also, I have used the "arbitrary lettering" thing in the past:

We decide on who we want the vig to kill. Assume that it's Kmd. Then we have both the watcher and the vig target Kmd. 'Cuz then the watcher would know exactly who the vig was. However, if either the watcher or vig was RBed, this would make this less ideal. Even so, that's the case even if we don't go for this plan, so I don't have a problem with that. Remaining nights, the watcher just keeps watching the vig, and if the vig was ever NKed (or even RBed), the watcher would know who was scum (or mime.)

[Fishythefish]

But my post had a clear meaning... I was discussing that scum might not always sabotage if there was only one of them. If I'm scum and I'm the only scum that received a plan, then why would I need to breadcrumb my action.

That part of your post was not really relevant to the game, expressed no opinion, and talked about the possibility of a spy not sabotaging tonight. Whether or not it was intentional, this is far too close to a breadcrumb. I'm not trusting the scum to be stupid enough not to make the link between not sabotaging with one scum and not sabotaging with multiple scum.

[Crazy]

But my post had a clear meaning... I was discussing that scum might not always sabotage if there was only one of them. If I'm scum and I'm the only scum that received a plan, then why would I need to breadcrumb my action.

That part of your post was not really relevant to the game, expressed no opinion, and talked about the possibility of a spy not sabotaging tonight. Whether or not it was intentional, this is far too close to a breadcrumb. I'm not trusting the scum to be stupid enough not to make the link between not sabotaging with one scum and not sabotaging with multiple scum.

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.

I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.
I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

I was going to make a joke here, and then realized that it might be misinterpreted

So, I'll stick with, that still feels like you are just going off and overall defending too hard...if that's understandable.

[Crazy]

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.
I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

I was going to make a joke here, and then realized that it might be misinterpreted

So, I'll stick with, that still feels like you are just going off and overall defending too hard...if that's understandable.

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

[forbiddanlight]

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

Hmm...this feels off but I might be biased.

Either way, I'm just here to raise my PPD.

No, seriously. I have nothing important to say on the subject until more stuff happens.

[Crazy]

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

Hmm...this feels off but I might be biased.

Either way, I'm just here to raise my PPD.

No, seriously. I have nothing important to say on the subject until more stuff happens.

I'm not fitting your meta of me? Not from when in Explosiva when I made a bunch of giant posts right before I was lynched just so I wouldn't be lynched because I was a "lurker?" I'm always concerned with being productive as town... I don't always succeed but I'm concerned about that.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not fitting your meta of me? Not from when in Explosiva when I made a bunch of giant posts right before I was lynched just so I wouldn't be lynched because I was a "lurker?" I'm always concerned with being productive as town... I don't always succeed but I'm concerned about that.

It's not about meta, actually. I've kinda stopped trying to meta people because I suck at it. It's more the way you said it comes off as contradictory.

[NabakovNabakov]

V/LA until Sunday

[veerus]

Alright, based on the current discussion, I would vote against the current proposal. I'm ok with ABR and NN but we shouldn't give the plans to Crazy.

Not sure about FL -- she's often very erratic in games. It's a null-tell at this point.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, based on the current discussion, I would vote against the current proposal. I'm ok with ABR and NN but we shouldn't give the plans to Crazy.

I'm leaning this way myself. Reroll?

[Knight of Cydonia]

I would also vote against the current proposal. I would strongly be against giving plans to Crazy, mostly because of his last page or so, and ABR and FL, not on the basis of scumminess at this point, but simply because I quite frankly never manage to read either of them until too late.

[PsychoSniper]

Why's everyone talking about voting against the proposal? The rules clearly states (and capitalized for good measure) that proposals, once made, can't be retracted. Any chance of voting we might have had was lost once Fishy stated his proposal in bold.

Also, wouldn't the logical strategy be to leave the scummier players in the plan to gain more information? If more people are suspicious of Crazy, that's a logical place to start, he should be left in.

It's already been brought up earlier that scum would probably want exactly one scum within those who get the plan, because having more than one scum in the plan makes it more difficult for them to coordinate their action, since neither can be sure if the other would want to sabotage. Right now, I'm suspecting that we may already have more than 1 scum in the trio, and some of those who want Crazy out may be scum trying to get one of their buddy out to achieve the one optimal number for them.

[forbiddanlight]

Why's everyone talking about voting against the proposal? The rules clearly states (and capitalized for good measure) that proposals, once made, can't be retracted. Any chance of voting we might have had was lost once Fishy stated his proposal in bold.

Umu...did you read all the rules? It says we can REJECT the proposal. Granted, I missed the fact that we can't CHANGE it, but we still vote to reject or accept the proposal, and then it moves to the next day.