Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[PsychoSniper]

You're right, I misread part of the rules too, my bad.

But I still believe it makes more sense to keep some scummier-looking players in the proposal. Unless we have reason to suspect both ABR and NN as well, I see no reason to cahnge the random setup.

[forbiddanlight]

You're right, I misread part of the rules too, my bad.

But I still believe it makes more sense to keep some scummier-looking players in the proposal. Unless we have reason to suspect both ABR and NN as well, I see no reason to cahnge the random setup.

We only have three bases. But I understand what you are getting at...

And actually, if we suspected either ABR or NN, then we'd probably want to keep the set up. Because then we'd have a sabotage clusterfuck that could give us a lot of information. With just one scum though...

[ortolan]

I suspect Crazy, think Naba is town and have no read on ABR. I would not like to send them in.

Also people are forgetting that we get more info out of letting a few people have a go in the driver's seat and nominating who they want before we go with one of their proposals. That way if ever we have evidence or suspicion someone or other is scum we can look at the people they proposed and analyse.

Even Fishy himself has expressed doubt about his random method now.

In order to defeat it we need to ensure at least all 5 rebels vote against it.

At some point in the near future I will give my reads on people and exactly what gave rise to those reads.

[Rishi]

We're a few minutes short, but that's just about 48 hours.

So, the thread is now locked. The proposal is that the following players receive plans:

Albert B. Rampage
NabakovNabakov
Crazy

You may vote to ACCEPT or REJECT the proposal. If accepted, then the thread will not open and the players will immediately receive plans. If rejected, then the leadership passes to the next player and Day 1 continues. Please note that the votes ARE NOT secret. They will be posted in the thread following the vote.

Also, just so there's no confusion, the leader MAY REJECT his or her own proposal.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind some feedback - either in PM or in the thread later whether 48 hours was a good amount of time. Too long? Too short? Just right? Am willing to fiddle with this requirement.

[Rishi]

Votes:

ACCEPT(3): Crazy, Albert B. Rampage, PyschoSniper

REJECT(6): forbiddanlight, ortolan, NabakovNabakov, veerus, Fishythefish, Knight of Cydonia

After much deliberation, those gathered realized that, well… they didn't deliberate enough. Even the leader didn't feel confident in his own proposal. With a sigh, he stepped down from his post.

PROPOSAL REJECTED 6-3

Day 1 continues. The new leader is forbiddanlight.

By the way, I am going to increase discussion to 72 hours after a proposal, just in case a proposal is made on a weekend and to be fair to those in different time zones.

Also, since this game will require a lot of voting, I will consider the votes as activity. So, even if someone doesn't post in the thread for a while, as long as they continue voting, then I will not prod them.

[Crazy]

I noted to the mod that I was V/LA, and I still am, but I'm on for a little while right now.

I see the proposal was rejected. *shrug* I still don't know what the optimal play is, so as I said, I'll accept anything for the sake of the game moving forward.

I don't see the case on me, though. Is it that you guys think I made a breadcrumb or because of my reaction to the breadcrumb?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Me, veerus, KoC. Sounds like a good start.

[ortolan]

Why?

FL, who do you want to send in?

[ortolan]

Also Crazy, ABR, Psycho, why did you vote yes?

[Crazy]

Also Crazy, ABR, Psycho, why did you vote yes?

Because I don't see it making a difference. I like the idea of having some facts to base on our scumhunting, and I don't know what the optimal amount of town/scum to have in the plan is.

[PsychoSniper]

.....my opinion hasn't changed from last I stated. I see no harm in random assignment on Day 1. I don't think a fast Day 1 is a bad thing. So I accepted.

I'm far more interested about those to rejected it, all of them. Do you object to this random assignment because you already have the specific "candidates" you want in mind? Or is it just because you object to any particular person getting the plan.

[Fishythefish]

Because I don't see it making a difference. I like the idea of having some facts to base on our scumhunting, and I don't know what the optimal amount of town/scum to have in the plan is.

Then surely that is something to discuss. There have been opinions put forward on the matter. I think that, for a start, it is beyond doubt that scum would want exactly one team member on a proposal- in that case they can make the decision about sabotage unhindered by worries about teammates. This is the scenario to avoid.
PychoSniper's suggestion of keeping my proposal doesn't smell right to me. He wanted to keep it for very bad reasons- he implies that it would be fine to have a proposal with one scummier player on it, which is the worse of all possible worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if he were scum with exactly one of ABR, NabNab and Crazy- and since two of these players voted in favour of the plans, this would fit quite well with either of them.
A summary of reactions to my proposal:
ABR: happy with it throughout. Clear from 19 will vote yes.
Crazy: happy with it throughout. Clear from 25 will vote yes.
Pyscho: Clear yes vote throughout- from 27.
forbiddanlight: Happy in 24. Changes mind in 60.
Fishy: Proposes it. Changes mind in 54- from here, clearly voting no.
NabNab: Negative but possible fence sitting in 22. Clear from 51 will vote no.
veerus: Firmly on the fence in 37. A "no" from 70.
KoC: Clear no vote from first post, 47.
ortolan: Clear no vote from 29 onwards. (Incidentally, maths is still slightly wrong, in a way which reflects well on me- if I was a spy, random method would be advantageous to me.)

Some of these "clears" are not perhaps not completely so, but most opinions on this were fairly firmly held. Until my change of heart, in 54, there were 5 people intending to vote yes, 3 to vote no (including Nab), and one thoroughly on the fence- so it looked to be going through. After this, it was far less certain, at 4 apiece and one on the fence, and post 60 from forbiddanlight was the death knell of the proposal.

It would be very good to have lots or no scum on the proposal today. The proposal yesterday was either good or bad for the scum, and so they are more than averagely likely to have voted together. For this reason, I would be strongly in favour of having the proposal drawn from one of two pools;
No Pool: KoC, ortolan, NabNab, veerus, me
Yes Pool: ABR, Crazy, Pyscho, forbiddanlight, veerus, me
veerus's actions are coherent with the proposal being either good or bad for him, so he goes in both pools. Same goes for me. But I don't want any plans.

@ABR: what constitutes a good outcome for a proposal? Why do you think those three players will fulfil this?

[ortolan]

ortolan: Clear no vote from 29 onwards. (Incidentally, maths is still slightly wrong, in a way which reflects well on me- if I was a spy, random method would be advantageous to me.)

Actually afaik my maths are correct as of my latest revision. This isn't a criticism of you though. I would probably support a me - Fish - Naba as the first three to get three town on the plans at first at present.

[Fishythefish]

I'm far more interested about those to rejected it, all of them. Do you object to this random assignment because you already have the specific "candidates" you want in mind? Or is it just because you object to any particular person getting the plan.

Neither, really. I thought the proposal had sparked a lot of interesting debate (a welcome if not an intended outcome), and that we had enough information to make decisions which would be better than random and would inform us for later days.

[Crazy]

Actually afaik my maths are correct as of my latest revision. This isn't a criticism of you though. I would probably support a me - Fish - Naba as the first three to get three town on the plans at first at present.

I'm not sure that the whole "people who post the most content are most likely town" thing works well in a setup like this. In a normal mafia game, scum just have to survive, really. Here they have to prove their worth, and putting through 3 people that are trying their hardest to look pro-town doesn't seem right.

Yeah, this is WIFOM, but that's what I live on. It just seems that scum would try harder to get on the plans than town. And seeing how both you and Fishy were

not

on the plan and were fighting against the plan... well, you can see what I'm saying. I'd be surprised if both of you were town, really.

[Fishythefish]

Actually afaik my maths are correct as of my latest revision. This isn't a criticism of you though. I would probably support a me - Fish - Naba as the first three to get three town on the plans at first at present.

I'm not sure that the whole "people who post the most content are most likely town" thing works well in a setup like this. In a normal mafia game, scum just have to survive, really. Here they have to prove their worth, and putting through 3 people that are trying their hardest to look pro-town doesn't seem right.

Yeah, this is WIFOM, but that's what I live on. It just seems that scum would try harder to get on the plans than town. And seeing how both you and Fishy were

not

on the plan and were fighting against the plan... well, you can see what I'm saying. I'd be surprised if both of you were town, really.

Your first point appears to be that content is a scumtell. I completely disagree. If you think we are trying hard to look protown, in a false way, point out why. Otherwise you are just randomly slinging mud at people.

Your second point is that scum want to be on the plans, and therefore that ort and I are more likely scum.
1) At this stage in the game, it isn't at all clear that scum would want to be on the plans.
2) You've said yourself that you have no idea what kind of decision is good for the town- and hence for the scum- at the moment.
3) You appear to have randomly selected two of the six players who voted no.
4) I've repeatedly said I don't want the plans. I excluded myself from my random numbers.

Your position is completely incoherent.

[Fishythefish]

P.S. Not in any way intended to say I agree with ort's idea. Haven't really thought about it.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I endorse any plan that ends in me being given a plan. ortolan's massive wall of math could either be intended to drown players who don't have time for that shit (me) or give the semblance of effort to make less active players look bad. Incident'ly, I cannot remember a single Veerus post all day of any substance. THerefore, I would suggest a me/Veerus/ortolan Proposal, although obviously I would be willing to compromise on one of the three in order to get at least two of them up in the spotlight.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Me, veerus, KoC.

[Knight of Cydonia]

THat would be acceptable, certainly. As I say, I would like to get at least two of the three players I mentioned above into the spotlight.

[Crazy]

Your first point appears to be that content is a scumtell. I completely disagree. If you think we are trying hard to look protown, in a false way, point out why. Otherwise you are just randomly slinging mud at people.

Anyone can talk theory and look pro-town. It's hard for scum to post content in the ways of scum-hunting, but talking theory is not hard... and thus doesn't need to be rewarded by having plans given.

Your second point is that scum want to be on the plans, and therefore that ort and I are more likely scum.
1) At this stage in the game, it isn't at all clear that scum would want to be on the plans.
2) You've said yourself that you have no idea what kind of decision is good for the town- and hence for the scum- at the moment.
3) You appear to have randomly selected two of the six players who voted no.
4) I've repeatedly said I don't want the plans. I excluded myself from my random numbers.

Okay, if you don't believe ort's plan, then I'll take you out of the picture and focus on ort, then.

1. He believes that we should try to get plans of all town. Scum at least want

one

of their people on the plans, most likely, so they'd try to look pro-town.
2. Yeah, well that's me... and I'm not really going with the grain here.
3. It's because ort picked you two on the plan, and Nab. Nab didn't matter to me because he was on the plan to begin with.
4. But you changed your mind.

I'm not saying ort is obvscum, but I don't agree with his philosophy. I'd much prefer ABR's proposal.

[NabakovNabakov]

.....my opinion hasn't changed from last I stated. I see no harm in random assignment on Day 1. I don't think a fast Day 1 is a bad thing. So I accepted.

I'm far more interested about those to rejected it, all of them. Do you object to this random assignment because you already have the specific "candidates" you want in mind? Or is it just because you object to any particular person getting the plan.

Why have a fast D1 when you can have a leisurely day with a copious supply of feedback at absolutely no charge? The way the rules are structured, we could adhere directly to deadlines and still have an infintely long day. Of course, we're going to want to agree on a proposal sometime, but why not make use of the fact that we now have solid information (the voting record for last cycle's proposal) on which to build a better plan. I rejected the random assignment because there was a better path with no extra charge.

@KoC: It seems that you're trying to load the assignments with scummy people, but you also want yourself on them. Is this a confession?

It seems to me that ABR is trying to put together an assignment with the three players who have contributed least so far. I'm not sure exactly what the point of this is (maybe he would like to explain), but I think it goes against both the objective of information gathering (the more a player has said, the more we have to draw conclusions and directions) and the objective of ideal scum distribution (why put our money on unknowns?).

More later.

[forbiddanlight]

Me, veerus, KoC. Sounds like a good start.

Auto reject

I don't do self noms

Why?

FL, who do you want to send in?

Haven't decided.

I'm far more interested about those to rejected it, all of them. Do you object to this random assignment because you already have the specific "candidates" you want in mind? Or is it just because you object to any particular person getting the plan.

Already covered this myself. Crazy will definitely NOT be receiving the plans.

I endorse any plan that ends in me being given a plan. ortolan's massive wall of math could either be intended to drown players who don't have time for that shit (me) or give the semblance of effort to make less active players look bad. Incident'ly, I cannot remember a single Veerus post all day of any substance. THerefore, I would suggest a me/Veerus/ortolan Proposal, although obviously I would be willing to compromise on one of the three in order to get at least two of them up in the spotlight.

I was leaning putting ort in. I wish people would stop self nomming. It makes me nervous and more likely to reject you.


Currently leaning ort, NabNab and...veerus.

Who doesn't like this?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Forbiddenlight is an obvious spy, so anything she comes up with on her own without direct orders from the town will be immediately rejected.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Nabakov probably her russian liaison. Definitely no plans for both of them.