Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[PsychoSniper]

So yeah, I agree with Fishy. Daytalk in the thread is the only way for scum to communicate, and there's nothing concrete for town to discuss until we see the results of the first porposal, so short day benefits town today.

Daytalk paranoia- daytalk is something to look out for, but as long as we do that it can't happen without immense risks for the scum

Seems a bit odd that you're making a case on me for agreeing with you in the beginning. You may have changed your mind on that subject, but I haven't. Yeah, I've been told enough times that it's paranoia in this game, but I still think it's a justified one. And like I said, I was also concerned that letting the scum know too much of what we think will give them hints on how to make their moves. It's not just about scum communicating, but also about how much scum learns (more than us) from

our

(town) communication. And being able to communicate their intentions through this "discussion". A townie may talk about who he suspects because he truly suspects him, but a scum may talk about whom he suspects to hint to his buddies that "hey, good scapegoat here", or something in that vein.

Also, wouldn't the logical strategy be to leave the scummier players in the plan to gain more information? If more people are suspicious of Crazy, that's a logical place to start, he should be left in.

At the time, Crazy was being suspected of breadcrumbing. Having a breadcrumbe in the plans is a terrible idea. I don't like the phrasing, "if more people are suspicious of Crazy"- it displays an unwillingness to commit to a position himself. If Pyscho thinks Crazy is suspect, then he should say so- if not, the argument is invalid.

Yes, you're right, I

was

unwilling to commit a stand. At the time I

didn't

really think Crazy was supicious, and even if I

was

suspicious, I'll admit I don't think I would have said so, because.....well, you already know my position on town naming all their suspects by now.

I also did not like the reason for various players saying "I'm voting against this because I want Crazy out of it.", which was what about 3-4 players have stated. I didn't think anyone was trying to get an all-town group at the time, it was already established how unlikely it was to happen. I raised the question because I was confused by where most of them stood. It seemed to me like most of them agreed it made sense to have scum in the group....but they didn't like the proposal because they think a scum was in it.

But I still believe it makes more sense to keep some scummier-looking players in the proposal. Unless we have reason to suspect both ABR and NN as well, I see no reason to cahnge the random setup.

This makes no sense- as Psycho had already acknowledged, we don't want a 1-scum proposal. If ABR and NN don't look bad, that was a reason to vote down my proposal.

Yes, that post was really badly made by me. To be honest, I just wanted the random proposal to go through. My post wasn't at all well thought-out because at the time I wasn't really concerned about speculating how many scum there was in the group. I was just eager for the day to move on and reveal if there are any sabotages so that we have actual facts to work on. I was trying (badly) to convince the town to go on with the random proposal without dragging the day on.

This is not exactly a brilliant case. But all in all, Psycho fits well with the idea that scum were in favour of the random proposal.

If he is scum, I would expect exactly one of the people on my ticket to be scum- and conversely, if there is one scum on there Pyscho is a likely candidate

.

Can you explain the bolded part to me again? I'm kind of lost here.

And yes, I do want the random proposal, for the simple reason that it was random and give scum no chance to collaborate. I still do want it random, if it wasn't already outvoted by the town.

[forbiddanlight]

I also did not like the reason for various players saying "I'm voting against this because I want Crazy out of it.", which was what about 3-4 players have stated. I didn't think anyone was trying to get an all-town group at the time, it was already established how unlikely it was to happen. I raised the question because I was confused by where most of them stood. It seemed to me like most of them agreed it made sense to have scum in the group....but they didn't like the proposal because they think a scum was in it.

A

scum. You notice most people wanted 2+ or 0, right?

And yes, I do want the random proposal, for the simple reason that it was random and give scum no chance to collaborate. I still do want it random, if it wasn't already outvoted by the town.

I'm just curious why you can't just play breadcrumb patrol to actually catch the scum collaborating? I think that'd give more information/evidence.

Ok, so, rebel list

me, Nabnab, ort, Fishy, and veerus/KoC.

I don't know which of veerus or KoC is the rebel, but they are about on equal footing for me.

[PsychoSniper]

actually that doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me if we get everyone to give a list of who exactly they think is most likely to be town/scum at this point in time. Any dodginess in the lists may well be apparent.

If you don't mind, I'd like to wait for at least 1-2 more players to speak on my idea before I make the list. Like I said, I still don't think it's good for town to tell everyone exactly who they are suspicious of (and making a town list is pretty much the equivilant of that). Obviously, my idea isn't going to work at all if majority of the town disagree with it, but it seems like not everyone has commented on it yet. If most of the town prefer to list out their suspects, I suppose there's really no point in me hiding mine, since 1 player's influence on the porposal is minimal.

Right now, I'll say that there're only about 2 players I actually suspect, and I don't have a particularly strong read on most of the others.

[Fishythefish]

This is not exactly a brilliant case. But all in all, Psycho fits well with the idea that scum were in favour of the random proposal.

If he is scum, I would expect exactly one of the people on my ticket to be scum- and conversely, if there is one scum on there Pyscho is a likely candidate

.

Can you explain the bolded part to me again? I'm kind of lost here.

I think you being scum is well correlated with yesterday's proposal being good for the scum (ie. a 1-scum proposal).

Seems a bit odd that you're making a case on me for agreeing with you in the beginning. You may have changed your mind on that subject, but I haven't. Yeah, I've been told enough times that it's paranoia in this game, but I still think it's a justified one. And like I said, I was also concerned that letting the scum know too much of what we think will give them hints on how to make their moves. It's not just about scum communicating, but also about how much scum learns (more than us) from

our

(town) communication. And being able to communicate their intentions through this "discussion". A townie may talk about who he suspects because he truly suspects him, but a scum may talk about whom he suspects to hint to his buddies that "hey, good scapegoat here", or something in that vein.

OK. This is a bit of a change of stance from back then- the point that scum may daytalk is very different from the point about picking up information from us.
In this game, there is no way for us to discuss matters, and come to a consensus, without the scum knowing about it. That's got to be an acceptable price to pay to have 5 brains instead of 1.
It doesn't really matter that you were agreeing with me. What I said was wrong- while breadcrumbs are important to look out for, they aren't an argument for short days.

Yes, you're right, I

was

unwilling to commit a stand. At the time I

didn't

really think Crazy was supicious, and even if I

was

suspicious, I'll admit I don't think I would have said so, because.....well, you already know my position on town naming all their suspects by now.

The thing is, you said that having Crazy on the proposal was sensible because people thought him scummy. That's not a reason to have Crazy on the proposal- the reason should be that

you

thought he was scummy.

[veerus]

I don't see how those in favor of a random D1 proposal are any more scum than those who aren't.

Here's my list in no special order: me, fishy, N^2, ortolan, FL

[Crazy]

I don't have much time to post right now. I owe this game a reread and such.

At the moment, I'll say Me Psycho ABR Veerus Fishy, but certainly don't kill me if I change my mind by my next post.

[forbiddanlight]

At the moment, I'll say Me Psycho ABR Veerus Fishy, but certainly don't kill me if I change my mind by my next post.

To our chagrin, we can't kill anyone .

[Crazy]

I reread. In my opinion, order from town to scum. Not including myself, obviously.

Fishy:

At first I had my suspicions based on his attack on me, but then I found this quote, lol.

Any reference to potential scum night tactics would be the most obvious example.

Really, I didn't realize he was directing my breadcrumb at Psycho before, hence what FL claimed my "overdefensiveness." So yeah, I'm fine with everything that Fishy has done and I'd be happy putting him on a "townie ticket."

Psycho:

He's got a strong opinion and he's sticking to it. I don't see any case on him at the moment.

ortolan:

He was heavily posting at the beginning, but he has slowed since then. His earlier case on Fishy seemed like earnest town, though.

veerus:

Veerus is merely "okay," and he's the lowest spot in my rebel list. It doesn't seem like he's giving any great effort to try to look pro-town, which actually makes him look slightly more pro-town in my eyes. (yes, yes, WIFOM, but all town-tells are WIFOM.) Unfortunately, his quote here really bugs me:

Let's just random and get this over with. At this rate we will never agree to anything a single person will propose and I'm pretty sure we're way beyond our original 72 hour deadline.

I have very little tolerance for "give up" quotes like this, and I believe for good reason.

ABR:

What do you know, he's in my scumlist, though he's still my most favorable person in my scumlist. To be honest, I don't see why I thought he was so pro-town before. Simply, he's not. Aggression does not equal pro-town, and simply saying something with vigor doesn't make it any more convincing in a mafia game. Also, he's acting way too paranoid regarding daytalk; anything that fellow scum can notice we can notice as well. And his line of questioning to me, "People will never support your proposal so just vote random," seems like just cold manipulation.

Forbiddan:

Okay, she's not as bad as I thought, but sorry, I still don't think she's pro-town. What I noticed this time were her paranoid FoS's on Psycho and Ort for ruining her line of questioning with Fishy. Ort even made a special point to note that it was a futile question, yet she still FoSed him for it and never actually explained why it

wasn't

futile. She seemed

so

eager in that question, despite the answer being both obvious (Fishy said "if we don't notice it.") and not very useful even if she got it. So yeah, major fakeness alert.

Nabnab:

On reread, I can't excuse this post at all. Saying that either "scum favored proposal" or "scum didn't favor proposal" is just so off, that he's on my scumlist for that alone. It just reeks like he's trying to make a bridge into a different opinion, and I hate it.

I definitely support a guided proposal.

And I think Fishy's approach is a good way to go. We had established enough theory by voting time for the first proposal to determine that there is no plan that is really neutral in the eyes of the scum; they have no incentive (other than WIFOM) to vote for a proposal that is not 1-scum, so I think we definitely stand to benefit by drawing today's proposal entirely from either the pros or the cons of yesterday's proposal.

I'm going to abstract away WIFOM just for now so I can work things out; feel free to add it in later to the detriment of all of my conclusions.

-Scenario 1: Scum favored proposal. This would mean that only one of myself, ABR, and Crazy were scum. However, this fails to hold up because both ABR and Crazy supported the prosposal. If they are both scummy for supporting, than the proposal has two scum. This scenario contradicts itself.

-Scenario 2: Scum did not favor proposal.
--2A: Proposal had two scum: Unlikely. Both ABR and Crazy would have to be scum, and they would have had to have voted for a proposal that did not favor them. This is the other end of Scenario 1's contradiction.
--2B: Proposal had no scum: The most likely scenario in my eyes.

Therefore, a town centric proposal should either be the three who voted for yesterday's proposal OR yesterday's proposal itself, and a scum centric-poposal calls for selection from yesterday's rejectors (KOC, veerus, FL?)

The one issue I have with this reasoning is that it goes quite against my gut. I have misgivings about Rampage, Crazy, and Psycho, so I am apprehensive about assuming they are town based on a contradiction in a model.

KoC:

I didn't notice KoC much before, but he's certainly on my scumlist now. I don't have any more time, though... I think I'll have to explain tomorrow or so.

[Fishythefish]

What you object to in NabNab is only a slight extension of something I have said repeatedly- that it is likely the scum voted predominantly for the option that suited them. You object to this opinion in him, but have no problem with it when I hold it- this seems to be a double standard. What is the difference between our positions that makes his worse than mine?

[Crazy]

What you object to in NabNab is only a slight extension of something I have said repeatedly- that it is likely the scum voted predominantly for the option that suited them. You object to this opinion in him, but have no problem with it when I hold it- this seems to be a double standard. What is the difference between our positions that makes his worse than mine?

With your post, you included the possibility that scum didn't vote together. Nabnab

acknowledged

that possibility, but purposefully ignored it, with his "I'm going to abstract away all WIFOM" thing.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan: Okay, she's not as bad as I thought, but sorry, I still don't think she's pro-town. What I noticed this time were her paranoid FoS's on Psycho and Ort for ruining her line of questioning with Fishy. Ort even made a special point to note that it was a futile question, yet she still FoSed him for it and never actually explained why it wasn't futile. She seemed so eager in that question, despite the answer being both obvious (Fishy said "if we don't notice it.") and not very useful even if she got it. So yeah, major fakeness alert.

Excuse me if I got a little eager over what I thought was catching a slip. What makes it fake compared to overexcited town?

And further, KoC feels tacked on in your list...

[Crazy]

Excuse me if I got a little eager over what I thought was catching a slip. What makes it fake compared to overexcited town?

Because there wasn't a point to begin with. Can you just say what you were hoping to gain from Fishy's response, because I seriously don't see anything. What was the "slip" that you just said you thought you caught?

I didn't have time to post my case on KoC last night, because it was mainly a lot of little things together rather than one big slip or something.

I would also vote against the current proposal. I would strongly be against giving plans to Crazy, mostly because of his last page or so, and ABR and FL, not on the basis of scumminess at this point, but simply because I quite frankly never manage to read either of them until too late.

His FoS of me basically followed the wagon that existed and he provided no case at all, and not being able to read someone is certainly not a reason to keep them off any list; it may even be a reason to put them on.

I endorse any plan that ends in me being given a plan. ortolan's massive wall of math could either be intended to drown players who don't have time for that shit (me) or give the semblance of effort to make less active players look bad. Incident'ly, I cannot remember a single Veerus post all day of any substance. THerefore, I would suggest a me/Veerus/ortolan Proposal, although obviously I would be willing to compromise on one of the three in order to get at least two of them up in the spotlight.

I was surprised that it turned out that I wasn't the only one that made that point against ort, though I later abandoned it.

The big thing here, though, that made me laugh when I read it; it basically points to us that KoC is deliberately lurking so he would have to be "put in the spotlight." He wants two of KoC/ort/veerus to be put more in the spotlight, lol. Anyone else see how incredibly strange this is?

Also, the notion of putting people with a null-read in the spotlight contradicts his earlier notion of not wanting ABR/FL in because he couldn't read them.

ABR is fitting his meta - oh so very angry and jackassish.
Unfortunately, this is his meta for EVERY role. So I have no idea.

This post bugged me originally because it's completely useless, and I will always stand by the opinion that even if someone has a strong meta, you can still separate what is their meta from what is scummy.

At this point the best thing we can do is let FL make a triple die roll, random it, and see how things fall tomorrow. The only reason I didn't do that vesterday was because I'm a massive paranoid idiot.

Random Proposal for the reasons outlined above.

Reasons? See the previous quote. Nothing.

While I don't agree with ABR's frankly psychotic attacks in the main, I do agree that FL's flip-flop on self-nomination is extremely scummy. Therefore, I will support any proposal that doesn't include FL or ABR.

Someone already mentioned this, but that's horrible, because of the whole "we don't want exactly one scum" thing.

[forbiddanlight]

Because there wasn't a point to begin with. Can you just say what you were hoping to gain from Fishy's response, because I seriously don't see anything. What was the "slip" that you just said you thought you caught?

It was more an anti slip actually. I was hoping that he would have carelessly forgotten the scum can't night talk and thusly been more likely to be town.

I think your points on KoC are sound, and I'm glad you shared them. It's...intriguing.

[PsychoSniper]

Yes, you're right, I

was

unwilling to commit a stand. At the time I

didn't

really think Crazy was supicious, and even if I

was

suspicious, I'll admit I don't think I would have said so, because.....well, you already know my position on town naming all their suspects by now.

The thing is, you said that having Crazy on the proposal was sensible because people thought him scummy. That's not a reason to have Crazy on the proposal- the reason should be that

you

thought he was scummy.

I already explained that in my last post (immediately following the segement quoted here). My intention was purely to keep the random proposal going. I made a bad argument in an attempt to convince those who did not want a random proposal to accept it. I myself was not concerned about having a "town ticket" or a "scum ticket" then. I just wanted the Day to end with the non-biased random group. It was too early for me to have formed suspicion on anyone at the time.

I can see how that action can seem scummy. On hindsight, I know it wasn't the smartest thing to do. I can only say it was an honest mistake.

[Fishythefish]

Fair enough.

[veerus]

So how about putting together that guided proposal everyone spoke so highly of?

[Albert B. Rampage]

We are waiting for FL to make up her mind.

[forbiddanlight]

I already have. I didn't know if you all had decided what you were doing.

Fine, let me do it

Proposal: NabakovNabakov, FishytheFish, and forbiddanlight get sets of plans

[veerus]

Why those 3?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Looks like ahmadinejad finally made his move. If you accept the proposal, you help the terrorists win.

[forbiddanlight]

Why those 3?

If you'd been reading, you know it's on the top of page 8

Looks like ahmadinejad finally made his move. If you accept the proposal, you help the terrorists win.

You're right, we do! Because, yanno, technically, WE are the terrorists if you think about it. Glad I finally got you to see that ^-^

(You know, rebels, etc. imperial people probably think we suck...yeah)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yes, the terrorists, as in Al-Qaeda, the Iranian Islamic government, and other affiliated factions.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, the terrorists, as in Al-Qaeda, the Iranian Islamic government, and other affiliated factions.

That would be pretty awesome actually if a mafia game could effect real world things like that.

So, is this appeal to ridiculosity all you have?

[Albert B. Rampage]

That would be pretty awesome actually if Forbiddanlight wasn't scum.

[forbiddanlight]

That would be pretty awesome actually if Forbiddanlight wasn't scum.

/me sighs.

I swear, I wish you'd stop confusing your role PM for mine. I mean, it gets tiring ^-^.