Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

PsychoSniper · Post Post #300 (ISO) » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:52 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't see that favours going forth with the proposal.

If FL is scum herself, then ortolan's remark is unlikely to be a scum breadcrumb anyway, since why would he paint his own scumbuddy in this light? And in this case FL probably has a good excuse to perform the sabotage herself and then act as one who was framed thanks to ortolan's "breadcrumb". No one would be sure if she's the scum or the convenient scapegoat thanks to ortolan's post. And yes, since FL is unlikely to have proposed more than one scum in the group, there'll be no need for her to collaborate with any other scumbuddies in the group to leave the sabotaging to her.

If FL isn't scum, then any scum in the group (if there's one) has a scapegoat in FL.

Either way, ortolan's remark creates another good reason not to have FL being the receiver for a plan at all today, whether it was a scum breadcrumb or a legit town-slip. I would say it's a good reason to scrap the proposal, whether she proposed it or not.

Fishythefish · Post Post #301 (ISO) » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:33 pm

If FL is scum, ortolan's remark is almost irrelevant, as you express.

If not, all ortolan's remark says is "I personally will be blaming FL for sabotage". All this means is that right now, he thinks FL is scummier than NabNab or myself. This isn't binding, and certainly isn't binding for the whole town. Having this expressed before is no different to having a scumlist with FL higher than NN or me.
If we had reached some collective idea that if there is one sabotage, FL is autoscum, that would be a great reason to scrap the proposal. However, ortolan's remark really gives them very little to work with.

Fishythefish · Post Post #302 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:59 am

My problems with Crazy:

Early on, Crazy wanted to go with random because he didn’t know what was best for the town. This is a terrible reason. If you don’t know what’s best for the town, you discuss it. This feels like a thin disguise for wanting a proposal that suits the scum. This persists after the rejected proposal- but he does eventually agree. Convenient to come around after, rather than before, the proposal was voted on.

Breadcrumb + response: actually, I’m relatively happy with this. I find Crazy’s reaction plausible as a reaction to being called out on a slip. I don’t agree with those who think he was too defensive; it was a pretty big accusation, and overdefensiveness is a crap scumtell. The whole episode is marginally scummy, but not a big deal.

His read on FL. The question she asked me has been blown ridiculously out of proportion. Scum only need to get 1 townie very mistrusted, and we have little chance of a win. It feels like the unexplained suspicions of ABR, if not from scum themselves, are being latched onto by other people. What FL did was not in any way beneficial for the scum, and writing her off as scum on the basis of this is so wrong as to be scummy. To be fair, his read has been somewhat retracted in his summary.

Crazy wrote:I assure you, even if I'm scum, that was not a breadcrumb.

I don't like this kind of sentence. It just doesn't feel like something a townie would write- why even bother considering that case?

After my reread, I think the breadcrumb is less of an issue than I did before. The same goes for his suspicions of FL; they have become more reasonable of late, and he criticised KoC for jumping on the FL wagon. I don’t like his play in relation to random proposals.

I think KoC looks pretty bad. He’s lurking, he’s voting yes on this proposal without any explanation and in direct contradiction to his previous position- that ABR and FL are scummy, and he’d vote for any proposal not containing them. He hasn’t given reasons for anything much.

forbiddanlight · Post Post #303 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:13 pm

Psycho, good job, you effectively made it impossible for us to get much info out of this proposal unless there is not a sabotage.

And then we get into WIFOM games.

Crazy · Post Post #304 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:02 pm

Fishy wrote:Early on, Crazy wanted to go with random because he didn’t know what was best for the town. This is a terrible reason. If you don’t know what’s best for the town, you discuss it. This feels like a thin disguise for wanting a proposal that suits the scum. This persists after the rejected proposal- but he does eventually agree. Convenient to come around after, rather than before, the proposal was voted on.

I always join games for a reason, because they have a concept that interests me. I only play Themes and Opens (and the occasional Newbie) for that reason. For example, when I joined Paris Mafia, I was expecting a very WIFOM-y atmosphere. When I join a Smalltown game, I expect lots of setup discussion. I first discovered this setup when Thesp (I think) linked to it on BGG in the General Discussion thread. At first I didn't really get it, but when Rishi put it in the Mini Theme Queue, I took a second look and was interested.

I began to consider how this would work with non-mafia players (I often mod games on another forum - usually not mafia because scum-hunting doesn't really come naturally.) I thought of this because it has a good dose of logic, and with a random proposal Day 1, you still get information so I thought it might work on that forum. At this point, I didn't really think there would be much of a difference between a random and guided proposal Day 1, since it was a win either way for me (as I saw it.) I never even thought of the whole "you-don't-want-exactly-one-scum" thing.

Thus, I thought when this game would start a random proposal would be instantly suggested. It was, so I went along with it. When I said I supported it because I didn't know what was best for the town, I really meant that I didn't know what was best for the town and I didn't think it would make much difference anyway. Obviously, I changed my mind later, as you did.

Fishy wrote:His read on FL. The question she asked me has been blown ridiculously out of proportion. Scum only need to get 1 townie very mistrusted, and we have little chance of a win. It feels like the unexplained suspicions of ABR, if not from scum themselves, are being latched onto by other people. What FL did was not in any way beneficial for the scum, and writing her off as scum on the basis of this is so wrong as to be scummy. To be fair, his read has been somewhat retracted in his summary.

Okay, I did go overboard. I still think it was marginally scummy, but it's not as big of deal as I thought it was.

Although, I'll tell you, my favorite scum-tell is when someone is making an effort to try to look like they're scum-hunting when they are really not doing anything at all. I have already said that I think the answer to FL's question was both

obvious

and

pointless.

As in, it was obvious what you meant, and the answer wouldn't mean anything either, based on what ort pointed out. And when she continued to pursue this, even FoSing Psycho and ort for "ruining" it, that really got my scumdar going.

Fishy wrote:I don't like this kind of sentence. It just doesn't feel like something a townie would write- why even bother considering that case?

In the past, people have mistakenly taken me defending myself as me trying to confirm myself as town, when in reality I'm just trying to refute the case. I now try to show my motive more clearly by making sentences like that.

forbiddanlight · Post Post #305 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:05 pm

Although, I'll tell you, my favorite scum-tell is when someone is making an effort to try to look like they're scum-hunting when they are really not doing anything at all.

Actually, it'd be fairer to say I was town hunting with the intent of my question, to be honest.

In the past, people have mistakenly taken me defending myself as me trying to confirm myself as town, when in reality I'm just trying to refute the case. I now try to show my motive more clearly by making sentences like that.

Nyeh, I begin to think in this game you are damned no matter what you do, lol

.

Crazy · Post Post #306 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:05 pm

Also, would people please stop saying that FL would not put another scum on the list with her? I utterly disagree with that statement, especially since it just tells the scum that we're vulnerable to be WIFOM-ed.

Crazy · Post Post #307 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:06 pm

FL wrote:Actually, it'd be fairer to say I was town hunting with the intent of my question, to be honest.

Okay. My point still stands, though.

forbiddanlight · Post Post #308 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:09 pm

Okay. My point still stands, though.

I don't think so. It was early game. I was looking for anything I could find.

Albert B. Rampage · Post Post #309 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:00 pm

Hey guys my internet is going to be cut off soon, so I won't have regular access anymore. I assure you there was no way I could predict this happening.

Gonna have to ask for replacement

I hope you guys have a great game though. FL gonna be happy at least lol

forbiddanlight · Post Post #310 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:01 pm

I hope you guys have a great game though. FL gonna be happy at least lol

Not really. You are fun to play with ^-^. I enjoy spatting in these games. It's rather hilarious

.

Hey guys my internet is going to be cut off soon, so I won't have regular access anymore. I assure you there was no way I could predict this happening.

...I do hope you get it back soon.

PsychoSniper · Post Post #311 (ISO) » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:54 pm

Fishythefish wrote:If FL is scum, ortolan's remark is almost irrelevant, as you express.

It's not irrelevent. It's something that can be

painted

as a breadcrumb. A convenient scum tool even if the one who made it may not be a scum.

Crazy · Post Post #312 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:34 am

PsychoSniper wrote:
Fishythefish wrote:If FL is scum, ortolan's remark is almost irrelevant, as you express.
It's not irrelevent. It's something that can be
painted
as a breadcrumb. A convenient scum tool even if the one who made it may not be a scum.

Who are you saying painted ort's thing as a breadcrumb? I'd guess that it wasn't, but there's no use in taking risks that it was, right? And no, Fishy's reason of "FL wouldn't put two scum on the same proposal" isn't good enough.

Fishythefish · Post Post #313 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:54 am

Crazy wrote:And no, Fishy's reason of "FL wouldn't put two scum on the same proposal" isn't good enough.

Of course she might have done. But it would be so disadvantageous for the scum that I view it as unlikely.
Since I know I'm a rebel, and have a fairly protown read on NabNab, this line of argument is obviously much more compelling for me than for you. As well as thinking that FL would be unlikely to put two scum on the proposal, I know one pair isn't the case, and the other seems unlikely.

Rishi · Post Post #314 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:21 pm

Okay. Thread locked. Please PM me whether or not you accept or reject the proposal.

The proposal is that plans go to:
NabakovNabakov
Fishythefish
forbiddanlight

Looks like I'm going to have to find a replacement for ABR. If anyone is reading the game and would like to replace in, please PM me.

MeMe · Post Post #315 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:42 am

If anyone knows what's going on with Rishi, please let me know. I'm trying to get hold of him. If I can't, this game will likely be abandoned as the set-up is a bit of a mystery.

.

MeMe · Post Post #316 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:33 am

I received a response via email from Rishi on Monday evening -- a bit more than 38 hours ago. He said...

Rishi wrote:I'll log in tonight and take a look at the games I'm modding. If I
don't think I can continue, I'll send the setup.

As he hasn't yet gotten back to me, I'm inclined to pull the plug. I'll give him another 10 hours (making it a full two days since his email), but prepare yourselves for an "officially abandoned" announcement.

MeMe · Post Post #317 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:43 pm

Officially abandoned -- players released.

ortolan · Post Post #318 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:55 pm

I was a Rebel, if that wasn't obvious

I stand by that Naba and Fish were almost certainly also Rebels

Having a quick look back over the game I'd guess the other Rebels were veerus and ABR

Fishythefish · Post Post #319 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:02 pm

I was a rebel also, as I suspect a few people had guessed

Crazy · Post Post #320 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:19 pm

I was scum with a bad start trying to recover. Given enough time, I think I had a shot.

The other scum were FL, Veerus, and surprisingly, Nabnab.

And no, what I said early on wasn't a breadcrumb, though it was really fun to pick on ortolan for doing the same thing.

I kept wondering if my scum-partners were hoping they could hit me on the head with something... typically I'm not good with scum-planning, so being in a setup where it was forbidden was interesting.

Also, I love this setup. It especially sounds appealing in real life play... because it gives a little boost of logic rather than psychology for people that aren't familiar with the game.

ortolan · Post Post #321 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:34 pm

oh right, damnit

I was tossing up between Psycho and veerus for Rebel, I wasn't sure who was more likely to be

I reckon Spies would win this the majority of the time in forum play

Fishythefish · Post Post #322 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:59 pm

Yes. I really liked this setup, but felt it was going to be extremely difficult to win for the town.

forbiddanlight · Post Post #323 (ISO) » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:54 am

I actually forgot Veerus and NabNab were my fellow rebels. Forget who I thought my allies WERE, but it was pretty amusing.

And yeah, rather irritated at how badly I had messed up with not including myself in the proposal initially. And yes, I was going to accept the fact I was obvscum after I sabotaged, though I think you all knew that.

NabakovNabakov · Post Post #324 (ISO) » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:02 am

Wait, you were going to sabotoge? I voted for the proposal with the understanding that neither of us would sabotoge. To me, the best strategy would have been having as many scum as possible on initial proposals doing nothing at all. By the time 5-man proposals rolled around, the town would be too confused/underinformed to hit the nail on the head. I also felt the scum had a massive advantage. Having one or two more town than were needed in the final round probably would have evened things out.

gg anyway.