Mini 788 - Fantasy Mafia [OVER]

[Goatrevolt]

Vote Andycyca

Get to know...my vote?

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Sudo_Nym

Obligatory vote on the obligatory counter-bandwagoner for being too concerned with a third bandwagon voter.

Die scum, die.

[Goatrevolt]

So, a bandwagon already?

Unvote, Vote GoatRevolt

ortolan made a very stupid OMGUS, null read. Goat is more experienced and is looking for a wagon to sting someone up quickly.

Was this a serious post? I'm going to assume it was.

Putting the first vote on Sudo is apparently me wagoning in hopes of a quicklynch? Do explain yourself.

Also, do experienced players tend to push for day 1 quick lynches? I've never seen that happen before.

Finally, did you think my vote on Sudo was serious?

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote TonyMontana

For great justice!

[Goatrevolt]

I beg to differ. Many times, being scum is a town-tell.

I require evidence for this.

[Goatrevolt]

Empking's presence inspires in us all the desire to quicklynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Andycyca

You explained your earlier vote on me as a joke vote, even though it looked like a serious post. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on it, because internet sarcasm can be tough to pick up on. However, now you say that the random phase is silly and give the impression that you find it to be pointless. I'd say either your earlier vote was serious and you just explained it away as a joke (which fits with your distaste of the RVS), or your earlier post really was a joke and your ortolan vote now is just really hypocritical. Either way, it's scummy.

[Goatrevolt]

Uunvote

Vote: Goat

Looks like bandwagon jumping for a bad reasons.

Predictable. Feel free to refute my reasoning if you believe it to be bad.

[Goatrevolt]

Uunvote

Vote: Goat

Looks like bandwagon jumping for a bad reasons.

Predictable. Feel free to refute my reasoning if you believe it to be bad.

Being hypocritical is a character trait, not a scum tell.

It's a character trait, alright...a character trait of people who have the alignment: Scum.

I'll admit, hypocrisy is not the biggest tell in the book, but it can certainly be reflective of scum. Townies act in a way they deem to benefit the town. So they have little reason to accuse others of being scum for acting in that same manner (a manner they consider pro-town). On the other hand, scum are acting to benefit their nefarious ends, and will sometimes demonstrate hypocrisy in attacking something that they themselves are guilty of, for a variety of reasons (as a reason to join a wagon, because they weren't at their "towniest" at some point).

I'm curious, though. Why do you say it's a character trait? Do some people just have the "hypocrisy gene" and others don't?

[Goatrevolt]

Are we sure we should be going for ort and not Emp?

Why do you think we should be going for Emp?

[Goatrevolt]

While wonderful in the sense of theory, I'm not sure it really works out that clean.

Nah, it doesn't always work out clean. I've seen townies be hypocritical before, most often in the case of a lurker attacking someone else for lurking. I've been in that position before, and sometimes you just have to suck up the hypocrisy and push the envelop anyway, if you legitimately feel the other player is scum.

Townies try to act in a manner that benefits the town, but there's not really a consensus on what consitutes a townie action, so what seems like a good townie move to the player making it could easily look scummy to another.

Right, but that's not hypocrisy. That's two different people with differing viewpoints. Hypocrisy would be more like me being aggressive early on, and then later attacking someone else for aggressive behavior, suggesting that it's scummy to be aggressive.

So how do you judge hypocrisy on a person's actions, if the motives are potential extremely different for a non-obvious reason?

Hypocrisy is if someone attacks someone else for an action that they themselves are also guilty of. In this case, I think Andy is being hypocritical for attacking Ortolan over continuing the "silly discussion phase" when Andy took part in the "silliness" himself.

It was just a question. I'm not sure which way we should be going as I have never played with any of you before. I don't know how you play when you are scum or when you are townie, and the same for everyone else.

Ok, but why specifically did you suggest Empking? Why didn't you instead say "shouldn't we be looking at Goat? or "shouldn't we be looking at KMD?" What made you pull Empking out of the pack?

[Goatrevolt]

Nothing in that discussion was serious. Not Ortolan, and I assume goat was playing along as well.

Actually, my vote on you was somewhat serious, but you're right that I was just playing along with the scum being town-tell deal.

I know what hypocrisy is. My point, and perhaps I didn't make it so well, was that different situations can look different. A player can look hypocritical for attacking silliness while himself being silly, even though the two contexts are different. There's frequently more than one aggressive player in a game, but they don't draw the same level of heat for that aggressiveness, purely because one of them is doing it differently (possibly better) than the other.

Gotcha. And I agree. It depends a lot on the context.

Andy: Joke or no, could you answer my questions in 25?

[Goatrevolt]

Nothing in that discussion was serious. Not Ortolan, and I assume goat was playing along as well.

Actually, my vote on you was somewhat serious, but you're right that I was just playing along with the scum being town-tell deal.

If it was "somewhat" serious, why make it look like a joke?

I didn't make it look like a joke. I voted him completely separately than the discussion over "scum being town tell" stuff. That came later.

[Goatrevolt]

You said you voted him "For great justice!"

That looks like a joke to me.

Why would I randomly joke vote someone in the middle of real discussion without any reason? Besides, why would I point out now that my vote was serious, long after the fact, when nobody even asked me about it? Am I lying for no discernible reason about something that isn't even that important?

If there was seriousness to it, you should have been pointing it out.

I like to let people react first, sometimes. In this case, nobody did. I moved on to Andy who was much scummier.

I also don't like the "somewhat". Either it was a joke or it was serious.

It was serious. Somewhat reflects the relative quality of the vote. My vote was based on very flimsy evidence (the only thing I had really seen thus far), and thus wasn't too far off from a joke vote.

[Goatrevolt]

You should have made a serious point if it was a serious vote. Not after you were asked, but when you voted.

I see no reason why this must be so.

So what was your point on TM? Do you still see him as scummy?

I thought his original vote on Andy was a stretching somewhat. He didn't even bother to learn whether or not Andy was joking or serious, just kind of jumped aboard.

I'm moderately suspicious of him, because he's basically just sat on his early Andy vote and hasn't really done much since.

@goat: answered in 33. You merely put the second vote

on me

and then switched it quickly. I tried (and failed) joking about being opportunistic that early in the game. Is it clear now?

I was wondering if you would mention that. I originally thought you were talking about my Sudo_Nym vote, but I ended up realizing that you probably actually meant my vote on you. I wanted to see whether you just went with the assumption everyone had that you jumped on my Sudo vote, or would give the honest answer.

Anyone else think Andy and Goat are part of the scum team?

Nope, can't say I do. I'm really curious why you jumped to this conclusion though. Are we playing some elaborate distancing game?

Also, you avoided my questions at the top of post 94. I'm pretty interested in your answers to those (basically, I don't see why my actions here are so scummy to you, and I'd like to see your thought process).

[Goatrevolt]

I see no reason why this must be so.

If you are as experienced as I think you are, you know my reasoning here.

I have no idea how experienced you think I am. Feel free to check my wiki if you wish to read up on me. However, I do understand your reasoning here, I just think you're entirely wrong. Fair enough?

Nope, can't say I do. I'm really curious why you jumped to this conclusion though. Are we playing some elaborate distancing game?

The fact that you call it elaborate makes me believe this even more. It's very common for scum to distance as early in the game as possible.

Really? And why would my word choice "elaborate" make you feel you are correct. Let's run through:

I placed the 3rd vote on Andy in the random phase.
He responded strongly to my 3rd vote with an apparently sarcastic OMGUS.
I attacked him immediately afterward to explain himself because his vote didn't look like a joke.
He mentioned that it was just sarcasm.
He votes Ortolan based on poor reasoning.
I jump on his wagon, as a critical 4th vote, and argue in favor of him being scum with Sudo_Nym and Empking.

And we're apparently just distancing. Because that's likely......

Here's a question: Why have you kept your random vote on Andy this entire time, even though you have not bothered to question or pressure him a single time since early page 2 when you merely asked him the seriousness of his vote? I see you questioning Ortolan, myself, Starbuck, but not Andy, who your vote is conveniently on.

If anyone looks like a buddy, it's you, whose vote has remained on him, but your attention and pressure has been anywhere but.

Also, you avoided my questions at the top of post 94. I'm pretty interested in your answers to those (basically, I don't see why my actions here are so scummy to you, and I'd like to see your thought process).

I missed something? That's rare. *checks*

You "missed" it? *cough* Bullshit. You responded to the rest of the post. Missed it seems unlikely.

Why would you point out that it was serious now? - To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything? The only time I can remember seeing a vote like this (non-random, very early, unexplained) was when Shea did it as scum TBH.

You've seen it one time before, and it was scum, so that somehow makes me more likely to be scum? Bad argument. A sample size of 1 is pretty weak for making justifications like that.

"

To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything

" - 1. I haven't kept the vote. 2. Good luck pushing the argument that I haven't done anything, because it's false.

Are you lying about something unimportant? - Doubtful. You may be trying to appear protown by doing something that may look more helpful than it really is though.

So if you don't think I'm lying, then why did you attack me under the premise that my vote looked like a joke, not a serious vote?

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't seen Mean Girls.

KMD: Your suspicion against me is purely because you disagree with my playstyle. That doesn't make me scum, just different than the type of townie you idealize. And your case about me being scum with Andy is really weak.

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't played with you before. I can't use meta to clear you like that.

Nor can you use playstyle differences or "weird play" to condemn me.

[Goatrevolt]

Don't wory I read 143. We can commisserate together in our reading of 143 as the other players skip on past. Those basards.

KMD has been riding me quire hard. I feel abused. I have to apply makup to cover up black eyes and act like I hurt myself on accidnt but the real truth is he abuses me. I need help. Please help me.

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Kmd

I think he's scum. Being on Andycyca for as long as he was without commenting on him at all is a definite scum tell. I also dislike his assertion that he missed my questions when he had answered the rest of my post. It's a dishonest answer, and he had no reason not to simply tell the truth as town.

I think his Starbuck vote is weak. I don't think he's been actively scumhunting at all, rather I feel that he's been asking questions simply to remain active and give the impression he's contributing useful discussion.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, I saw Andy as more likely scum than anyone else at the time. I didn't have anything strong, but it seemed better than what I had on anyone else.

Why not provide reasoning for why you thought Andy was scum? Why not question him as well? Surely you didn't have reason to believe he was actually scum when you placed your vote on him as a random vote?

And I responded to the whole quote at once instead of chopping it to pieces. I missed part of it. I don't see how you can be so certain that I apparently lied about that. That's a blatant strawman by the way. "You lied and lying is scummy, so you're scum." Yes, lying is scummy, but I simply didn't lie.

It's not a strawman. It's what I believe to be true. If the definition of a strawman is accusing someone of lying then how do we ever catch scum without strawmanning them?

I don't think you missed part of it. I think you chose not to answer part of it. The post in question is post 94, which was a short post. Claiming you simply missed those questions altogether, when they were literally the first thing in the post and when you were the first response to the post is, quite frankly, hard to believe is true.

What exactly is weak about my vote? Starbuck had NO reason to be speculating about the roles that are in this game if she is town.

You attacked my vote on TM under the guise that I was experienced and should know better. Do you consider Starbuck experienced enough to know better? Do you really think blatant, undisguised rolefishing like that is an actual scum-tell or an inexperienced-tell?

Asking questions isn't scumhunting how? Just because I haven't found anyone who I am completely sold on being scum

yet

doesn't mean I'm not looking. I'm trying to get what I can from people.

Asking questions can be scumhunting, certainly. I'm not arguing that asking questions is scummy. I'm saying that all you've really done is ask questions, and I believe

that

is scummy.

[Goatrevolt]

So, I only need to check the discussion between Sudo and Bear, Goat and Kevin.

Anyway, at this moment I'm not liking Star and Goat.

And yet, all your questions are directed elsewhere.

Does nobody else think Kmd is scummy?

[Goatrevolt]

EBWOP
Also, the quote in the above post from Star, was in response to this post:

Star, taking shots at "everyone" is me thinking I have the 3 scum found and going after those three players. How am I being insulting or defensive?

Goat, you (or anyone else here) probably won't face my real wrath. I've been warned by a List Mod recently, but the game is ongoing. XD

Star, I'd say we should probably stop discussing roles that could be in the game. There is no reason to speculate on anyone's roles just yet.

I see, I see what Goat didn't see and that's that Star missed a question.
So Star answer it, and Goat explain why you didn't comment on this.

Comment on what? That Star missed a question? Did Star respond to the rest of the post as well? Missing a question isn't scummy. Lying about it is.

The only argument mentioned in the post Goat votes Kevin I can agree with is:

Being on Andycyca for as long as he was without commenting on him at all is a definite scum tell.

But I'll get to this in my response to Kevin's last post.

Also, regarding this:

I also dislike his assertion that he missed my questions when he had answered the rest of my post. It's a dishonest answer, and he had no reason not to simply tell the truth as town.

What's the truth, according to you then?

That he simply chose not to answer them because they were the kind of questions that suggested his attack on me was misguided.

Also, three of the four mentioned arguments were already present before you voted. The only one absent that happened between the post before you voted and the post in which you voted, was the Star vote. So why did you only vote later?
Not to forget that you've also been very long on the Andy wagon, yet you didn't mention him after the post in which you voted and in the post you voted. So why do you attack him for something you did as well?
I'm interested to hear your elaboration about the 'no scumhunting' argument, as I think it's untrue.
Which leaves the Star vote. Why is it weak? Because Star is scummy, and depending on the responses to my post, she's one of the players who can get my vote. I'll reveal the others later.

I contemplated voting earlier. I held on to my Andy vote at the time simply because I still thought he was still scummier. Kmd's vote on Starbuck tipped the scale in his favor. It complemented his play up to that point in the game (questioning people on stuff that could be construed as scummy but really isn't) and then the vote was icing. She made a suggestion that would benefit scum more than town, but it was such a blatantly "scummy" statement that it's clearly just a sign of inexperience. The only way I could see her making that statement as scum comes from a completely different reason than KMD's. I could see her as scum making that statement only if she legitimately thought it was something that would help the town and she wanted to look town by suggesting townie things. However, it's just as easy to assume that she's town suggesting things that she thinks will help the town as well.

I did mention Andy while I was on his wagon. Numerous times in fact. You quote one such post in 216, actually. I defended my vote on Andycyca to Empking and Sudo_Nym, arguing why his hypocrisy was scummy.

My no scumhunting argument against Kmd is that I don't think he's actually looking for scum with his questioning. I think he's just looking for things that could be construed as suspicious so he can place his vote there. That also ties in to my point about him "missing" my questions. Did he miss those questions, or did he ignore them because they didn't fit his want to construe me as scummy?

Because you say Star is scummy it's automatically true?

This is scummy as hell. Now, Goat attacks Kevin as he thinks Kevin's lying about his reasong for not answering a question. Had Kevin gave the reason Goat expected, he probably would have been attacked by Goat for not wanting to answer a question.

Really? You think I'm scummy as hell because of how you think I "would" have acted? Please...

There are possible town motivations for why he could have not answered those questions. And likewise, it is "possible" he did miss those questions, but in a post where I only say 3 short paragraphs, and he immediately answered the 3rd such paragraph in the following post, I highly doubt that he didn't even see them at all.

Possible town motivation, exhibit 1: I saw them, but wasn't sure how to respond to them, so I just answered the rest of your post in the meantime.

Seems like Goat is looking for reasons to attack Kevin.

On what basis? I gave arguments to suggest that him lying about it is a more plausible explanation than that he simply "missed" it.

Wait. Does this mean you think it's a weak vote, because you see Star as in-experienced?

In the most simplest form, yes. I think it's a weak vote because I think Kmd didn't even consider the option that Starbuck's lack of experience was the driving factor behind her making that post. Again, this ties into my point that he's looking for things he can construe as scummy rather than things that actually point to scum. I think Kmd is smart enough to have considered the possibility that Starbuck's post was simply the result of inexperience, and not some grand scum scheme to learn town power roles by asking kindly in thread.

I disagree, as he's asked questions and has discussed what in his eyes should be discussed.

Asking questions is easy to do. Discussing stuff is easy to do. Neither of those mean he's town by any stretch. I'm more interested in what he's pursuing and where his questions are leading. So far I see him on Andycyca without actually pressuring him/addressing him at all. Then I see him attacking me and "missing" questions that coincidentally happen to be hard to answer if his intention is to construe me as scummy. Then I see him attack Starbuck and ignoring her experience as the most likely factor behind her "scummy" statement.

--------

The 3 scum "slip" is inconsequential. I always assume 3 scum in a 12 player game unless there is reason to believe otherwise.

So, I only need to check the discussion between Sudo and Bear, Goat and Kevin.

Anyway, at this moment I'm not liking Star and Goat.

And yet, all your questions are directed elsewhere.

Does nobody else think Kmd is scummy?

ORLY? Check again.
And like I said, the only thing that's scummy about Kevin is that he wasn't his normal stubborn self regarding Andy.

The irony is slapping me in the face.

Traps are bad, and also anti-town.

Really? On what basis? I think traps can be powerful town tools.

I think I have referred to it before in mafia in at least one game, I honestly cannot remember which. It may have been one in which I was mafia (just to insure myself) but it's just a common logical device. I referred to it more to illustrate the point to you than to use it as a form of argumentation. I bet if you asked everyone in Mafia Discussion (after the game obviously) they would say it is entirely valid. It's really no basis for suspicion like you seem to think it is.

I'll step in to say that I use that all the time. It's like a slap in the face to bad logic. Not only are you showing that their accusation is wrong, you are also showing that even if their accusation was right, it doesn't mean what they suggest it does.

[Goatrevolt]

Overreacting can be a scumtell, but the problem with it is that it's subjective to each individual player. What may be overreacting to you could simply be normal to someone else.

[Goatrevolt]

ZazieR, I anxiously await your reply to my post.

[Goatrevolt]

I frequently make cases without including possible scum buddies. In fact, I attempt to determine who the scum buddies are based on reactions to my cases. I disagree that you should be looking for a team of mafia players on day 1. Catching the first scum gives you information to use in catching subsequent scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Short said, I always throw a lot of suspicion around.

No I mean you seem to be implying that Goat is confirmed town here, and I want to know why.

I don't see how this is the case at all.

[Goatrevolt]

She is saying that she has thrown suspicion on you but it appears to be wrong? Have I misinterpreted something?

Acknowledging that her points of suspicion on me were wrong is not the same as saying I'm confirmed town. You don't agree with the points of suspicion on Starbuck. Is she confirmed town to you? That's essentially the argument you are using.

[Goatrevolt]

No, I didn't interpret your stance as disagreeing with it, nor am I being defensive. I called it out because you were definitely stretching to suggest that her saying her suspicion thrown at me was wrong implies that she considers me confirmed town.

You do have a point though, that her change of opinion on me without rationale needs to be explained. She promised she would address my post ages ago, and that still has not occurred.

[Goatrevolt]

As much as I agree with your vote, why are you voting prior to getting your bearings. Seems...backward? No?

[Goatrevolt]

Nothing has happened in the last few days.

I'm waiting for Tony Montana to come back, and I would still love to see ZazieR address my post, as was promised a real long time ago.

[Goatrevolt]

This game just seems to be dragging.

Or is it just me?

Dragging? What would make you say that?

[Goatrevolt]

And the game is now officially dragging.

[Goatrevolt]

Top two would be Andy/KMD, with a special tip of the hat to Tony.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, looks like deadline was supposed to have been on Monday. We should start working toward deciding on a lynch.

unvote, vote DizzyIzzy

Andy is one of the better suspects, and probably one of the few most can agree on. I think people are ignoring/overlooking KMD, but I doubt I'm going to change minds and hearts this late in the day.

The lurking + lack of solid stances + replacement + more lurking is pretty telling.

[Goatrevolt]

We should all vote Dizzy to get a lynch in the next 72 hours lest we be smited by a deadline no lynch.

Or if people want KMD, I can swing that way.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm almost certainly no going to switch to D. I am willing to switch to KMD, though.

Who is this mysterious D you speak of? Is that the illustrious DizzyIzzy?

If so, why are you so opposed to swapping to that wagon?

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote
Vote Starbuck

I'm not sure whether I'll have a chance to be on before the deadline tomorrow, so I'll get this in now. It's a weak lynch, but it's better than no lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm really not sure what to make of that claim. I think it might actually make sense based on her play. I also think that's a moot point, because I'm pretty sure I actually dropped the hammer on accident.

So, either a townie who has no vote other than to hammer, or lying scum. At least I didn't accidentally hammer a power role

[Goatrevolt]

I agree with most of what Channel said. I think the SK lurkerscum point is a strong one. Since then, he seems to have followed up his lurking with more lurking.

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Shadow Knight

Not my top wagon pick, but it's definitely better than a Starbuck lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Vote DizzyIzzy

[Goatrevolt]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

I do. I think Dizzy is scum, and I don't see the two of them as scum together.

[Goatrevolt]

The Starbuck kill was a result of Sudo_Nym's stumping. If Ortolan is also a vig of sorts, then do we have two pro-town killing roles and yet the mafia failed to successfully land a kill? It's difficult to believe there are 2 dead from night 1 and both are the result of pro-town vig roles.

Having said that, though, Ortolan is totally right about KMD jumping to the conclusion that Orto is either a vig or a SK but ignoring the possibility that Ortolan is mafia, which is clearly the simplest explanation.

It would not shock me in the least bit to see:

Ortolan - Serial Killer
KMD - Mafia tracker

The alternative to Orto being a SK is that he is a second town killing role. That is possible, but seems less likely.

At any rate, I would love to see full claims from both of you.

I want KMD to claim first. Ortolan has already been locked into a specific enough subset of claims that I doubt he can modify his claim in any meaningful fashion if he's trying to fake it.

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Ortolan

Ortolan and if he's town, then KMD tomorrow, although I doubt KMD makes this claim unless Orto really is scum.

Also, Zazie + Dizzy are probably town as a result of Orto being scum.

Orange penguin looks fishy for immediately buying KMD's case which was pretty weak.

[Goatrevolt]

Don't setup lynches. It makes you look horrid.

I fail to see any issue with what I said. If KMD is lying about Ortolan being scum, then we should lynch KMD tomorrow. The likely explanation is that he's not lying, because scum have little motivation to 1 for 1 themselves this early in the game, so we should lynch Ortolan today. Besides, the only way Ortolan is town is if there are two town killing roles, which is unlikely, since he graciously admitted to the Sudo kill.

Orange penguin looks fishy for immediately buying KMD's case which was pretty weak.

Great logic there.

Thanks! But I'm serious. That case was pretty bad (no offense, KMD). You jumped aboard immediately without any underlying rationale, which looks more like a scum buddy hopping aboard the Ortolan bus than a townie legitimately buying the case.

[Goatrevolt]

No, I think you're Ortolan's scum partner. I don't think KMD is scum after that claim.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, you think OP would baselessly bus like that? I could see him as scum if Ort was town, but Ort is scum and I just don't see the connection.

Yeah, I think so. Has OP joined any other main wagons this game based on agreement with cases presented? Your case on Ortolan wasn't very strong, and is basically an "I investigated him and would prefer to case him first in hopes of avoiding having to claim" case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like in retrospect. It looked like you just patched together literally everything you could possibly find potentially scummy about Ortolan into a case. I think it is very odd that OP jumped on that case without any rationale.

[Goatrevolt]

Vote: Goat

I think you're Ort's partner, trying to distance yourself by accusing me.

And here he votes me over Ortolan, even though his case on me is based on Ortolan being scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, doing a quick skim through OP's posts, I believe that's the first time he follows someone else's case this entire game. It seems far more likely that he sees a large case on his scum buddy and just agrees with it, thinking it's stronger than it actually is, than that he's a townie who finally found that case he was looking for all along.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, that's exactly what the case was. OP

is

the kind of player to jump on to things like that though. I'm really not reading him as scum right now, especially jumping on someone who I know to be scum the way he did. If Ort flips SK, I'd look at OP closer. But Ort-OP as mafia together? Not seeing it.

I've never played with him before, so I really have no clue what his meta looks like, but that vote on Ort raises all kinds of alarm bells, especially without any reasoning whatsoever.

[Goatrevolt]

OP is barely a step above being a VI. He knows the game and (usually) posts pretty regularly, but he needs improvement (OP, don't take this as an insult). He's more likely to bandwagon or make a bad case than anything. And I don't see the baseless "me too" vote on Ort going to a scumbuddy. I see either a townie seeing a lot of words and agreeing OR scum looking for an easy case to follow. The only way OP is scum is if he is in a different scum faction than Ort.

Can you explain why you don't see it going to a scumbuddy? You've said that a few times, but I want to understand why you think that is the case.

If I'm scum, and as bad of a player as you suggest, and I see someone post an enormous case on my scumbuddy, I will probably just assume it's a good case and hop aboard. This is literally the first time this game he has wagoned off of someone else's case, and I find it pretty suspicious that he did so off of a poor case on someone later revealed to be likely scum. My experience with new/weaker scum is that they love to bus.

[Goatrevolt]

OP's vote was clearly an "I agree with this case" vote and nothing more. It just doesn't look like bussing at all.

I caught scum doing exactly that in a recent offsite game. I disagree with you, I think newer/weaker scum are more likely to be paranoid and try to bus their buddies or are more critical of their scum buddies than they aught to be. As in, newer/weaker scum are more likely to hop aboard weak logic aimed at their buddies because they already know the end result is correct, so they overestimate the calculations that led to that result.

At any rate, I'll review the rest of his posts more closely. I pretty much have had a non-opinion of him up to this point.

vote: ortolan

If ortolan comes up scum then orangepenguin's Goat vote would suggest scumbuddies.

Suggest OP as a scum buddy, or me as one?

Vote: Ort

Cops are better than vigs.

What? This is pretty irrelevant... We already have a dead pro-town role with killing capacity, so how does cop v. vig play any "role" in this scenario at all?

[Goatrevolt]

@OP- more is a relative term. technically, I have MORE money than the homeless dude I saw on the way to work, but when I've only got a nickel in my pocket, that doesn't mean much.

I gave that homeless guy a dime. Lynch all liars.

[Goatrevolt]

Channel, the vote count is correct.

Vote me a second time. Can you?

*Sigh* There goes that theory for now then. I'm not saying I no longer find the vote suspicious, don't get me wrong, but the improbability and infrequency of scum getting a double-vote power makes me unwilling to vote you for now.

I agree with you regarding double voting if he's allowed to place both votes on the same player. If not, then it's definitely less powerful/of an alignment tell.

So, I guess a

Vote: DizzyIzzy

is the next place to go.

Was Ortolan trying to bus Dizzy day 1?

Hmm..Dizzy and Tony didn't vote Ort either. But since KMD had evidence against him, I think it's more likely that his

partner

bussed - Goat voted him.

Singular? Slip?

Hmm..Dizzy and Tony didn't vote Ort either. But since KMD had evidence against him, I think it's more likely that his partner bussed - Goat voted him.

Lots of people voted for him. Y'know, he was lynched. Why Goat?

Because I'm the only one of those who attacked him personally, thus I must be scum, because a townie could never attack OP. I believe that is the justification. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Goatrevolt]

Cool.

Vote TonyMontana

[Goatrevolt]

I agree that your display of power probably wasn't the best, the way you did it is not at all how scum would do it. If scum had the double vote power, they would sit on it until they can use it to win in Lylo. So double vote + revealed in a non-scummy fashion = pro-town.

I think our best bet for finding scum right now is among the numerous lurkers.

[Goatrevolt]

Empking: Have you done any scumhunting this game?

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote Empking

[Goatrevolt]

Reasoning is for the weak of heart.

Can you answer post 614? Could you also explain how OP claiming his species could possibly help the town more than the scum?

[Goatrevolt]

What scumhunting? Show me where.

It can help the scum by both narrowing down species claims as well as giving scum more of an theme to the structure of town claims. I can't think of any reason off the top of my head why it would help the town.

My reasons for voting you is a combination of your lurking, lack of any kind of scumhunting, and you ignoring questions I've asked you a couple of occasions now (my question over your cop+vig statement yesterday as well as 614 that I had to prod you into answering). Also, I think you're just BSing reasons to validate your stance that OP should reveal his species.

[Goatrevolt]

I should catch up later today/tonight.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok, I'm caught up. Sorry for that. I bit off more than I could chew and this game wasn't vastly approaching deadline, so I went with the toss it to the bottom of the pile approach.

I think Empking is lying scum.

1. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar about forcing OP to claim his species and had to struggle to attempt to explain it for us. And it is my sincere opinion that I totally rocked his grill with the "Empking: Have you done any scumhunting" question, that he ignored/also struggled to answer.

2. Notice how he never votes OP, though, or does anything to suggest that OP is scum. Then, when he claims, he goes ahead and votes OP because "there can't be that many confirmed townies." The issue here is that he waited until he claimed to make that decision. That suggests a mindset that there weren't that many confirmed townies until he claimed, so somehow Empking claiming confirmed masons bumps up the number of confirmed townies to be just enough to make OP worthy of a vote.

3. We later find out that he wasn't confirmed town, which takes us back to number 2. Empking knew they weren't confirmed town, otherwise he would have been voting OP all along. When he claimed confirmed town, a lie, it also made it so that there were too many confirmed towns, and thus Empking voted OP over it. If he was telling the truth here, his vote would have been on OP all along. That is a clear indication of guilt.

4. The post Zazie brings up where Empking agrees about "Andy and me being part of the scum team" makes no sense if they are confirmed masons together. He claims he forgot. I claim BS.

I believe my vote is still on Empking, and is unlikely to move after this.

[Goatrevolt]

I also think it's suspicious that people are focusing on the dead, voteless, confirmed town player. That is, in fact, the opposite of hunting for scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I doubt Empking lied about that as well.

Zazie I believe to be town based on day 1 interactions with Orto.
Channel I think is town based on my read of his play.
Izzy is almost certainly town based on Empking, and if that wasn't enough, day 1 interactions with Orto.
I know I'm town...

That leaves TonyMontana and Shadow Knight. Both of them also look pretty scummy, which gives me great faith that my process of elimination is correct. I'm dead tired right now, but I'll look into both tomorrow and decide where my vote should go.

[Goatrevolt]

Vote TonyMontana

This post still bothers me to no end. Why would you vote prior to getting your bearings?

And then the savage lurking + process of elimination = scum. I suggest we wait a day on Shadow Knight to see what comes of his flavored beating, leaving Mr. Montana all by his lonesome.

Zazie + Starbuck is really accomplishing absolutely nothing and is serving entirely as a distraction. Zazie, who is scum? I know you know who is dead town, but scum...? Starbuck, I would suggest you actually present a case on Zazie if you want to convince people she is scum. Right now, I consider it unlikely and this bickering really doesn't persuade me otherwise.

[Goatrevolt]

You'd be surprised how much people are suspicious of anyone who says they're confirmed.

Who cares. If people are suspicious of a confirmed town player then they are probably scum.

Anyway, there should be more votes on TonyMontana. Or more votes period, really.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goat- what is the case on Tony?

This + This.

[Goatrevolt]

You don't care to explain the vote, or you can't explain the vote?

[Goatrevolt]

I was suspicious of KMD. Hence my vote. I don't know what more i need to say, my reasons for suspecting him is right there in the preceding posts.

I still find it suspicious. You did suspect KMD in the previous posts, based on the 3 scum slip, however, why wait until that late to vote him? Why vote him prior to getting your bearings?

You kept your vote on Andy through your suspicion of KMD, so I really don't understand why you would all of a sudden unvote and vote KMD without even catching up yet.

Mod: Can we get a prod on ZazieR, DizzyIzzy, and ChannelDelibird

[Goatrevolt]

So you just neglected to change your vote before. And when you came back you were really eager to change it as the first thing you did? Sounds...unlikely...

What made you want to vote KMD over Andy so bad?

Tony, who do you think is scum?

---

Everyone needs to weigh in with an opinion on Tony. And then if that opinion isn't "Tony = scum" provide who you think is scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Tony reads too much like scum who's trying to fast talk his way out of the noose. I'm good with a Tony lynch today.

And yet you don't vote. Why not?

SK reads like scum who tries to push a lynch with poor reasoning. Also, I've reason to be a little suspicious about your beating.

Otherwise, I'm getting scumvibes from Goat, based on the last game I modded where he was mafia. Then again I don't really have comparison for it.

The guy on your case and the person who agreed you were a good lynch?

Can you elaborate why you are suspicious of SK's beating?

[Goatrevolt]

Can you elaborate why you are suspicious of SK's beating?

Not without claiming.

If it's a reason to believe he's scum, then it might be worth claiming. It's up to you, ultimately, though.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm pretty sure the remaining scum are among you, SK, and Channel. Unless I have reason to believe that Zazie/Ortolan day 1 was distancing, I think she/he's town. In retrospect, I should really go back and check into that more, but anyway...

How would SK's claim explain anything about the beatings? Or are you assuming this was an act of masochistic self-mutilation?

We might want to consider a mass claim.

[Goatrevolt]

Considering Tony has claimed information on you, I suggest you first, then Tony, then /popcorn.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok, I looked through SK's posts. I was hoping to catch him in some kind of inconsistency around KMD's claim. KMD originally made it look like he was a tracker, so if SK is actually a tracker, he should have been suspicious of KMD's claim, and it looks like he was. So SK actually appears consistent in that regard.

Here is the best course of action.

SK doesn't claim his targets right now. We continue with the mass claim. Nobody claims their targets (if any), and people instead just claim their roles. Then we go back and claim targets, starting with SK.

The reason we should do it this way, is because if SK is indeed a town tracker, and he claims his information now, he allows the scum to tailor their claim to match his claims. By forcing everyone to commit to a role first, we ensure the scum can't just weasel around SK's claim, if he's town.

I think Tony should claim right now.

[Goatrevolt]

Or...I can just get simul'd. Whatever works.

[Goatrevolt]

I feel pretty confident that Tony's going to have a hard time coming up with a plausible reason why I was beaten for following him anyway. You can see why I'm pretty freaking sure he's scum.

I have some questions to ask about this, but...Tony's claim first.

[Goatrevolt]

If that's a fake claim, that's pretty epic

[Goatrevolt]

How kind of you Tony.

Unvote

I'm going to say my initial reaction to Tony's claim is town, simply by virtue of "so unbelievable it can't be fake".

----

I'm the Vampires.

The cool thing is that I can only be killed by holy wafers, garlic, and wooden stakes.

The unfortunate thing is that I'm apparently required to carry all 3 on me at all times.

It all adds up to vanilla.

Mr. Delibird, it's you.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm going to wait to finish mass claim first, but I'm pretty sure SK is scum right now.

[Goatrevolt]

Either he's fake claiming tracker, or he's a scum tracker who doesn't want to claim his actual results.

Why would a town tracker ever track the cop? The point of a tracker role is to find scum. Tracking the cop provides no useful information. Either the cop dies at night, and it doesn't matter who they targeted, because you don't get the alignment anyway, or they don't die, and you learn who they targeted anyway.

Shadow Knight does have a role that targets, that much we know from Tony's claim. However, his claimed results are OP not targeting anyone (something anyone could claim based on knowledge of OP's role) and that KMD targeted CDB (again, an easy claim to fake, not to mention I don't think KMD would have targeted CDB anyway). He didn't claim his results on Tony, although now that Tony has claimed, he will probably match his claim to Tony's. I simply can't see a town tracker actually tracking the cop, thus SK is almost certainly scum.

Anyway, Zazie's claim...

[Goatrevolt]

Wow, I did not expect that claim. ZazieR is scum. I can prove it.

By the way, we're probably at Lylo (6 players left, likely 2 scum remain). Zazie is going for the throat to avoid having her scum buddy Shadow Knight go down. If you lynch me today, the town loses, so she has all the advantages to claiming a fake watch.

Anyway, as for my proof to you right now that Zazie is lying.

He watched SK target KMD night 2. He's a watcher, and says he watched the cop that died. Then he did nothing to get that player who targeted the cop lynched. If he was a town watcher, he would have said yesterday "Hey, I watched KMD and SK targeted him, so SK is the killer." And we would have lynched SK. Easy as pie. Instead, ZazieR said nothing, let us lynch a mason instead of the confirmed scum he found, and is now trying to get the final mislynch today.

There is absolutely no way he is town after that claim. Why didn't he go after Shadow Knight yesterday for targeting the dead cop, but now he's apparently gung ho about going after me today for "targeting" the dead OP? It's because he's scum. And it's obvious why he's going for me over Shadow Knight. Because they are both scum, and he just needs me dead today to win.

Vote ZazieR

Also, I want to chuckle at both scum outing themselves with terrible claims. Zazie today, SK tomorrow and we win.

[Goatrevolt]

I targeted CDB N1 with no result. I saw him as most pro-town.

Kevin was my target N2. SK indeed targeted him then.

But N3 is more interesting.

In case you need me to point it out to you in the simplest of words. This right here is obvious scum.

She caught SK kill KMD according to her claim. And did nothing about it. Then spent all of today, doing nothing about it. And is now trying to get me lynched instead of SK. Hello, scum. Do I need to continue? I can and will all night if it's not clear by now.

No town watcher lets a mason die over scum they caught. No town tracker tracks a cop and completely wastes their track. And the special beauty here is that Zazie caught SK kill KMD, but let him live, and wants to let him live yet another day to lynch me. Isn't it hilarious when scum tie themselves together in such a nice package? It's a brown paper scum package wrapped up in string. And it's one of my favorite things.

[Goatrevolt]

Just ignore Zazie's WIFOM.

The 2nd kill the first night was Sudo stumping Starbuck. Since then there has been only 1 kill a night.

I highly doubt a 2nd scum faction exists. Nobody has claimed a protective role at all, and we've only seen 1 kill per night. If there is a second scum faction they are either extremely weak (no kills) or they are skipping kills (why would they do that?). Zazie is trying to incite paranoia now that he's outed scum.

The difference in kill flavor (trampling to burning) could easily be attributed to each race having their own kill flavor. A simple possibility is that one scum committed the kill night 1, and a different scum committed both the night 2 and 3 kills.

I will say that I'm surprised Zazie threw in the towel so quickly. I expected at least some fight.

[Goatrevolt]

The two scum factions does look pretty certain, though, given that there's no other way to explain the two kills Night 1 if all town players are telling the truth in their claims. Could be 2 scum, 1 SK though.

Sudo Nym, pro-town stumper. Starbuck got stumped.

Just 1 kill per night.

[Goatrevolt]

Zazie, you should have your scum buddy shoot me tonight. (See, I can dabble in WIFOM too...).

Also, my point about protective roles is that there are no protective roles yet there has been one single scum kill per night, which means 1 scum team, barring a brutally weak scum team without the ability to kill (frankly unlikely).

More evidence to one scum team: Zazie wouldn't have lied about a watch if she was the only member of her scum team still alive, because that would destroy her chances of winning. With two scum, though, she can try to get my lynched today, and win today.

Incite. Paranoia.

[Goatrevolt]

The troll looks kind of hungry, though.

[Goatrevolt]

Zazie is scum, and he's going through increasingly more ridiculous ideas as an attempt to confuse us with last minute WIFOM.

The best way to end the confusion is to lynch the scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Exactly. Thanks Goat.

You're welcome.

[Goatrevolt]

I was gonna suggest that SK target me again tonight. You know, just in case he's the last scum, and can't kill while he use his ability.
It's not like anyone is gonna believe him if he claims he tracked a kill anyway.

That is a fantastic idea.

[Goatrevolt]

That plan nails SK to the wall and forces him into making an action that we can verify. There are no downsides.

And I agree with CDB.

[Goatrevolt]

Even if Zazie flips something else than Draconic, I don't see the problem with taking SK out of the picture tonight.

Agreed. Regardless of what happens with Zazie, SK is still really likely to be scum because his tracker claim doesn't add up with a pro-town mindset.

[Goatrevolt]

Wait, what if Zazie has something in her win condition to be lynched?

It's possible, although I think it's unlikely. Zazie could have gotten lynched earlier in the game if this was the case. The fact that he didn't make his bad claim until lynch or lose in an obvious ploy to get me lynched over the likely scum SK suggests otherwise.

[Goatrevolt]

Even if Zazie flips something else than Draconic, I don't see the problem with taking SK out of the picture tonight.

Two scumteams.
Explain how it works in this case.

Even if there are 19 scum teams, SK is still almost definitely scum. Forcing scum to make a suboptimal night action is always good.

[Goatrevolt]

It forces SK-scum to target Tony with his ability. And we learn who targets Tony because it's stated in the mod's opening post of the day. We can force scum to target a player of our choice and we will have verification of it.

No downsides.

Also, you're right. I'm misleading Tony by agreeing with his own plan .

-----

Just need Dizzy or SK to hammer. Or Zazie, who so badly wants to be lynched could hammer himself, of course, unless he wants to spew more lies out before the end of the day. It's whatever you want.

[Goatrevolt]

Translation of Zazie's posts:

"I'm screwed. Tony's plan screws SK. We're going to lose. Let me pretend to actually care about the town winning in a blatant (and completely baseless, because I have no reasons whatsoever) plea to get the town to not follow the easy game winning plan Tony suggested. Maybe some poor sap will believe my 'I want the town to win' claim and my completely unsupported 'there are two scum teams' claim. If that's the case, SK might have a chance. But first, the town has to ignore Tony's plan! Even though I have no reasons, and quite frankly there are no reasons why this is a bad plan, I'm going to hope that me continuing to tell the town it's bad will cause people to listen!"

Now why couldn't you have just said that?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not targetting Tony tonight. I hate to throw this monkey wrench into everyone's plans, but I'm not scum. Goat or CDB must be scum with Zazie. I say we lynch Zazie and go to night. That leaves 5 players alive. Me, Goat, Tony, CDB, and Dizzy. I don't think there are 3 scum left regardless of whether there are 1 or 2 factions, because if there were, then the 3 scum could simply agree to share vicotry over the town and the game would be over.

The scum will want to leave me alive so they can lead the mislynch against me tomorrow. They can't target Tony because even if he's lying about being un-nightkillable, he'd probably still mark whoever targetted him. Dizzy is confirmed town. That means the remaining scum has to be either Goat or CDB.

Yeah, no. Not targeting Tony is a straight admission that you're scum. If you are truly town, and want to avoid this "mislynch" of you, then you would target Tony to clear yourself.

But as it turns out, you're scum, and it must suck to get corralled into a losing plan.

[Goatrevolt]

I also find it humorous that SK changed his opinion from "Tony's claim is the most anti-town thing ever, etc. etc." to Tony not even being a consideration for scum anymore.

Gotta go with the flow, I guess?

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, and I meant to say this earlier, but there is a difference between "no one targetted so-and-so" and "no result". I got "no result" on OP. I targetted KMD because I wanted to know who he targetted (aka who he was suspicious of). He chose CDB.

It doesn't matter who the cop is suspicious of. Either they live and tell their tale, or they die and it's meaningless. A town tracker would target someone they are suspicious of in an attempt to catch scum. A town tracker simply would not target the cop in order to learn absolutely no useful information.

However, it does make a nice fake claim opportunity.

[Goatrevolt]

Bah!

Why kill me over the confirmed townie, SK? Also why not kill every night?

If I had known there were multiple mafia factions, I might have played things a bit differently. I had planned to claim bulletproof, but then Tony claimed his role and I knew it would be suicide to claim a 2nd immune to NK role.

One flaw with the setup as I see it is I literally had no claim, and it looks like CDB was in the same boat. I think it was fairly clear, as Tony correctly guessed, that there were no vanillas in the setup but I seriously had nothing else I could claim. I think I would have still managed to win had SK shot Dizzy that last night (I vote Tony, and CDB hammer, game over), but I was dreading a mass claim all game.

Zazie, why claim the fake watch on me? You were in a good position until that point. I didn't understand it at the time (why pick me as well?) and still don't get it. Was it because I was on Shadow Knight?

No wonder day 4 was so lame. There were 2 townies, a survivor and 3 scum. In retrospect, I should have not pushed Shadow Knight so hard that last day, but I thought there was no way he was going to kill me considering I was the available mislynch for him to win off of.

[Goatrevolt]

Meh. SK screwed both him and me last night. Good game.

Also this. SK screwed over all 3 anti-town forces with his kill on me .

[Goatrevolt]

I was worried there was a vanilla with the "you're the only 'nilla in this town" clause. I've seen it before, and fully expected to get gang raped on my vanilla claim. CDB claiming vanilla really helped a lot, as my claim helped him, prior to me getting shot up.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, lol. He was going to get nk-ed anyways, by the looks of it.

He did get NKed. You must mean lynched....

But yeah, SK was done for either way.

[Goatrevolt]

I figured there was no way for me to win, so I might as well shoot Goat. Once Zazie came up Elven mafia, I was a dead man.

Baaaaahhh!!! I thought it was highly unlikely that anyone would kill me, especially with confirmed town Dizzy still alive. I thought I might lose in a you guys lynch me, then shoot each other endgame scenario, but I didn't expect to be killed.

I even at one point laid down some terrible WIFOM telling Zazie to have his partner shoot me in hopes that would scare you off. I didn't want you to actually do it.

[Goatrevolt]

I liked your analysis, CDB. It was spot on for the most part. It just so happened that every single day there was a confirmed townie of sorts that made a perfect kill option so I wasn't too worried about being night killed (KMD/OP/and Dizzy was supposed to be!!!). I had to hold myself back from attacking people on a few occasions just to help ensure that nobody would shoot me.

I also felt I looked the most pro-town of anyone in the game (prior to claims), so I didn't feel the need to go out of my way to get more +town points. The Empking lynch makes a lot more sense now that I know there were like 4 anti-towns pushing that wagon .

Ultimately, it wouldn't have mattered whether you could convince people to vote me or not. If SK had killed Dizzy, I would have simply voted Tony immediately as we entered the day, and let you hammer him for the shared win.

[Goatrevolt]

Meh. He tried to get me lynched with a fake claim, and then tried to blatantly suggest that I was scum after he was outed, while simultaneously trying to stop you from carrying through with your plan to screw over SK. SK was the best fit for scum buddy.

I still don't get why Zazie did it though. I hope he swings around to explain that.

[Goatrevolt]

None of those spells are better than just killing people. I could see it if he wanted to use it as a means for a fake claim, but he didn't even go that route.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, that stumping role is sick. If I was a townie in this game, I would have loved to have been stumped.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, I agree with the way SK played his role, but I feel like Zazie should have been trying to kill each night as well.