Newbie 744 -- Game Over!

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

Can I vote Zazie now or do I have to wait? XD

[Kmd4390]

Confirm

/confirm

Can I vote Zazie now or do I have to wait? XD

^^OMGUS
You knew I was planning to vote you.

But you were planning to vote me knowing I was planning to vote you. Now we step into WIFOM territory.

[Kmd4390]

Well choose a glass. If you choose the right one, you'll be able to tell me the reason.

[Kmd4390]

I'll tell you the real reason when the time's right.
But just for fun, how many glasses are there? Three? If so, I'll take the one on the right:
o o x
The 'x' is the one I will take.

Wrong glass.

[Kmd4390]

Vote ZazieR

The OMGUS is on you. I said I was going to vote you back in confirmations. =p

alexhans and Cnt, why no vote?

Cnt, why and FoS along with no vote?

[Kmd4390]

Wrong. I voted you based upon your lie of our previous game .

What lie?

[Kmd4390]

I vote her in any game we play together.

,while you hadn't voted me in any other game before.

Yes, I don't forget things like this quick.

Oh. That.

Thought I had.

Ongoing game though.

Just in case you wondered why I would not vote for him if he had 2 votes is that: Assuming that the first 2 voters aren't mafia and I place my vote on him, would leave him with Lynch-2, at which the scum could come and voterush him, leading to a waste of a day 1 lynch.

That wouldn't be a waste. If scum let us find them that easy, we'd win no problem.

I see that you were cautious as town in Newbie 709, so I won't hold it against you.

[Kmd4390]

I vote her in any game we play together.

,while you hadn't voted me in any other game before.

Yes, I don't forget things like this quick.

Just looked back on this. Tranquility, you replaced into AFTER the RVS. The newbie game, I had convinced the girl I was dating to play a mafia game, so I jokevoted her. So yeah, good reasons why I didn't vote you in those. =p

[Kmd4390]

Getting defencive, aren't we? I'll keep my vote.
You even gave me an extra reason for it . How come you didn't tell me that it

was

your girlfriend?

I thought it was weird that I hadn't jokevoted you before, so I looked at our past games. (See what happens when you have time to kill?)

And she didn't want people in the game to know because she figured it would affect the game. (Also, bolding in your post was added by me for emphasis...)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the players who chose not to vote right away?

[Kmd4390]

Alex, I can agree with you about. Seems he is making an excuse by saying he didn't know. But that may just be innocent confusion from a newer player. The vote in his last post makes this especially true. Null tell IMO.

Cnt was the one I had a problem with. At least until I looked up his meta. The FoS without voting always looks suspicious to me. In the RVS, it's even worse. But seeing that he played a cautious game as town in his other game, I think that's a null tell as well. Maybe even a slight town tell.

EBWOP I'm sorry to hear that

About what? The "was"? It was happening slowly anyway... And it was about a month ago, so I'm ok now.

[Kmd4390]

GUYS I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT! Under Zazier and KMD's name it points out that they are both mafia scum. Must be some sort of glitch in the system but good thing I was observant enough to notice this. GG Mafia, but looks like you've been figured out by detective syndrome

Good catch.

READ! I saw the title that said Pre-game, then fast-read the page 1 and posted a comment to state my happyness that this was about to start. I never realized there was a page 2. I just wrote the reply.

Makes sense to me. I buy it.

Because everybody else has posted at least once after voting? Unless I missed something, Dennis is the only one who hasn't posted...

He posted 30 hours ago. I don't think we need to jump on him for it yet.

[Kmd4390]

, it seems we've underestimated them KMD.

Guess so.

I think it's time to ask if Jeep can give us new titles. Or perhaps we should start a topic in which we ask for a new title, just like Ythill. Who knows what will happen if we don't!

I lol'd.

Anyway,

On Alex, I buy his explanation for the no-vote. I'm not calling him town yet, but I'm not going to call him scummy for an honest mistake.

On Cnt, The FoS still looked to cautious. It does match his town meta though. The other thing he did was a lurker callout. Pretty quick to jump on the lurker IMO. May just be new town trying to find a starting point.

[Kmd4390]

well here i am =D

Who do you think is scummy?

[Kmd4390]

While I want to agree with Dennis, I don't think policy lynches are in the spirit of a mafia game. I'll only vote Mizz if I think she is scum, not if I think she won't help.

Mizz, do you have any opinions on the game right now? If so, please share.

[Kmd4390]

I'm waiting on some content from Mizz, before deciding if she deserves a vote or not.

Do you think she is scum for the way she is playing?

[Kmd4390]

All I can say right now is that the way she's playing right now reminds me of someone else's playstyle when she was scum. Don't you agree on that KMD ?

Whose? If you mean yours, I don't see it. She's not lurking in the traditional sense. She's more...just not doing anything which is consistent with her meta from what I see. If she reminds me of anything, it's probably Santos.

I don't think she's scum for playing like this, but for her posts so far, she definitly deserves some attention. But I will base my conclusion on something else than her posts so far. And that's why I want to see her next post.

Fair enough.

But KMD, what do you think of SoaD's unvote?

Actually, while I generally think that unvoting for fear of L-2 is a common scumtell, this specific unvote is acceptable. Why? Because SoaD (stole your abbreviation) was never actually suspicious of Mizz. His vote was only a joke vote.

I'd like to know this though. SoaD, what do you think of Mizz now?

[Kmd4390]

while I generally think that unvoting for fear of L-2 is a common scumtell

Actually, maybe not a scumtell, but not optimal play.

[Kmd4390]

I'd like to know this though. SoaD, what do you think of Mizz now?

[Kmd4390]

&& yeah, i never replied inawhile cause im out?

Want to do so now while you are online?

[Kmd4390]

sigh~ im done. lol.. i think mafia scumm is alittle to harsh for me. so im gonna get replaced =) it was a fun game guys. but i cant take it... it tears me up o.o

im quiting mafiascum T-T

bye guys~~ its been fun.

No one is asking you to leave.

[Kmd4390]

I hope it wasn't me, I'm not trying to be mean! I'm just trying to win!

Same here...

[Kmd4390]

I think Mizz was just a newer player who didn't like being attacked. I've seen it before (mcskullchick joined a game here and a game on another site and told me she'd never play mafia again because she didn't like the "fighting"). I don't think there's enough to get any idea of Mizz's alignment. If anything, the frustration is a weak town-tell, but I don't see it as a scumtell.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, the better place to look would be reactions to her.

Alex: Attacked and threatened to vote. Dropped the "too late apparently. Doesn't matter" after she was replaced. Asked a question to the replacement.

Alex, were you suspicious of Mizz or just wanting her to contribute more? Why did you never vote?

Dennis: Said if she's town, she won't help later. Voted her in that post. Hasn't posted yet since she was replaced.

Dennis, Was your vote out of policy (lynching her for being unhelpful) or did you think she was scum? Are you going to leave your vote on Ash?

Raiv: Questioned her about asking if we'd voted. Next he seemed pretty sure about her being scum or at least not helpful. His vote was probably the most confident of those who voted Mizz.

Raiv, same question as Dennis. Did you think she was scum? Also, would you have been ok with lynching her at the time you voted? If Mizz was at L-1, would you have hammered? Are you still ok with your vote on Ash?

SoaD: joke voted Mizz. Unvoted when people went after Mizz for real. Said he hoped it wasn;t him who upset Mizz and welcomed Ash to the game.

SoaD, What were your thoughts regarding Mizz's play? Any opinions on Ash yet?

Zazie: Answered a question Mizz asked pre-game. Normal IC procedure there. Asked Mizz a question to help get things started. Said more about Mizz AFTER she was replaced than while she was actually playing.

Zazie, would you have been ok with a Mizz lynch (funny how close that is to "mislynch")? What are your overall thoughts on the way players reacted to Mizz?

Bolt/Cnt: I didn't notice much from you regarding Mizz. What did you think of her?

[Kmd4390]

I don't have any thing definitive yet, I originally thought that Mizz could of been playing an excellent "of course I'm townie. I'm inexperienced, but really in reality scum teehee they will never see through me" type of thing.

Than just realized she truly was just inexperienced.

Ash, what made you think you needed to post this? You replaced Mizz having the same role she had. If you are town, so was she.

[Kmd4390]

Alex, I didn't say anything about Mizz lurking. I wanted to know why you never voted and if you suspected her of being scum.

Ash, had you seen your role when you read the game?

[Kmd4390]

Zazie, I agree with you for the most part.

Raiv, I can see your vote as a pressure vote. That makes sense. But I have to ask this. Why is it scummy that she quit?

As for my suspects, I'll let you know when everyone has answered my questions regarding Mizz. I've got a few ideas, but I want to see everyone's answers first.

[Kmd4390]

No not the first time, I replied to Yaw with I'll take over her spot, proceeded to read the topic, than checked my inbox with the reply, found out what I was, and than like I said in my second post gave what my preliminary thoughts were.

Ok, this clears up my concern regarding you thinking Mizz may have been scum.

I think the whole reason Mizz left was because SHE WAS A TOWNIE...and was getting told she was scum...and like you've all said...I TOOK OVER HER SPOT.

So logically that would meannnn......

Actually, I think she was upset over being attacked. As I said earlier, I've seen this happen before.

Why is it scummy that she quit?

First she brings up some bogus sexism arguement and she says mafiascum's too harsh then before she leaves she's like- oh yeah and school.

So to answer your question, my train of thought was- why did she really quit , is she scum?

Why would she have quit as scum any more than she would as town?

[Kmd4390]

Kmd have you ever seen quitting as a scumtell in the games you've played?

I generally see it as a null tell. It's nothing strategic or anything, so it doesn't really indicate alignment.

Do you think the reasons they give for quitting could be scumtells?

Not really. I think the best place to go is to judge Ash for his own actions unless you can pick out something from Mizz's play. TBH, I really can't.

[Kmd4390]

Anyway, I still find Mizz suspicious as she suddenly showed up after being called out, but not adding content. She also didn't address any votes or questions in her final post before she decided to leave, but she did address the unvote

This is a good point. Newbie scum tend to think of lurking as optimal strategy. But they don't want to be called out, so they will post occasionally, especially when called out. Quitting is not a scumtell. The timing and lack of content in her posts is a scumtell.

Also, I agreed with your post for the most part. If you want to see what I disagreed with, I'll let you know, but it's nothing major.

[Kmd4390]

What play? You mean quitting?

That combined with her play before that.

Innocent until proven guilty

In mafia, guilty until proven innocent is a better way to think. At least that's my opinion. Some players say otherwise.

I don't like how ash is saying he "admits" that mizz looked scummy, yet says "but now that I took her role I know she's not". He obviously could very well be telling the truth about it, but something just seems fishy about that story that I can't quite put my finger on. Anyone else getting these vibes?

Well, I can see replacing a player who you agree is scummy. I've even done it. The explanation seemed a bit much though.

[Kmd4390]

CnT needs to explain that vote. One more vote on Ash is a lynch. Were you aware of this when you voted? Are you comfortable with it? Do you even suspect Ash.

Unvote, Vote CnT

blueshadow should explain his vote too, but I don't suspect him for the unexplained vote as it doesn't place Raiv at L-1 like CnT's vote on Ash.

[Kmd4390]

blueshadow, the major point against CnT is that he put Ash at L-1 without much reasoning. You just did the same thing with your CnT vote.

[Kmd4390]

SoaD, I can kind of see your logic on the bussing theory, but I don't see Zazie (an IC) bussing her partner (a newbie) that hard in a newbie game. The idea is to teach the game and bussing that hard goes against that.

I know.

And yes, I did the exactly the same thing.

Why did you vote him?

No

its not even pro-town.

Just like I said before, "someone's gotta go first".

Wait, what?

I consider myself a pro-town role, however what I was doing is of couse not pro-town.
I will not explain what the hell I was doing cause explanation means concealing. But I can tell you my intended purpose is reached.

Maybe some of you has already figure it out.

If it's not protown, why do it?

Unvote

because CnT is at L-1 and discussion is good right now.

Vote Blueshadow

for voting CnT with little reason (the same reason CnT was being wagoned), admitting anti-town actions, and witholding information from the town.

[Kmd4390]

I apologize for my drop in activity. Not good IC behavior on my part. The good news is I'll be caught up this afternoon.

(Marathon Day was the reason I wasn't around)

[Kmd4390]

first of all:

unvote

Mine was an intended pressure vote to get a reaction and the game going... and to see who would follow the bandwaggon... Unluckily i was absent to react quickly. Luckyly Ash was not quick lynched.

Did you gain any information from this?

Remember you can pressure someone with a FoS too.

Personally, I think the only purpose for an FoS is if you want to vote someone, but you think your vote is better where it is. Other than that, I don't use FoS. That's just me though.

@CntR
Ignoring a question is never good.

Not true. If someone is rolefishing, you won't answer their questions, correct?

[Kmd4390]

Happy Birthday Raiv.

[Kmd4390]

Thanks y'all!

Yakuza san kochira te no naru hou e
Donna ni nigetemo tsukamaete ageru !

The closest I can get to any translation is:
And not to disturb HOU kochira The Yakuza
Donna nigetemo tsukamaete Neither act

Please tell us what this meant Raiv.

[Kmd4390]

Hum...Well, since we cannot continue ahead without blue, we can discuss a few things while he's gone...

Why not?

So, what are the suspicions on me? If I can get a clearer idea of what they are, I will present my defense.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

Kmd, I said ignoring is bad. If someone is rolefishing, I'm sure that you call him out on it. Even if you call him out on it, you're still responding to the question.

True. Just it's not good to always answer every single question asked. Yeah, if someone is calling you scum, you answer the accusations. There are just some things that you don't answer though. Not many, but there are some.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry all, but I won't be here for a week.

I will catch up next week. Zazie can give IC tips. She's a good player and awesome person.

[Kmd4390]

Vote CntRational

Same reasons as yesterday:

So, what are the suspicions on me? If I can get a clearer idea of what they are, I will present my defense.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

[Kmd4390]

alex, why just the FoS on Ash and no vote? And what makes you think all we have right now is crap?

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. I actually don't see the case on SoaD.

[Kmd4390]

What is he lying about specifically?

[Kmd4390]

1. Why didn't you get aggressive in Newbie 709? Or at least not to the same extent as here.

2. Well first of all, "boring" discussion gives us stronger reads on players and is helpful to the game. Second, with enough discussion, there is plenty to go on. Sure, we don't have anyone dead and confirmed or anything, but you can still get reads on players based on their actions. And if you want the day to end so quickly, why were you scared to put SoaD at L-2. Is he your scumbuddy?

3. K.

4. 30 hours isn't that long. People go inactive for days at a time. Not that they should, but they do.

5. Why didn't you post reasons for such a drastic change in opinions.

6. Answered in 2.

[Kmd4390]

Raiv. At the bottom of the page, you see "All Users" with an arrow. Click the arrow and find the player you are looking for then click go.

[Kmd4390]

To add to the technical help, if you're in the "View all posts by..." for a single player, and you want to cross-reference a post, just click on the little page icon in the top line of the post (right before Posted: Date/Time). It'll take you right to the same post in the actual game thread, so you can see it in context. You're welcome.

This.

Or if you are using several posts, you can always say "X's post number 4" and people in non-newbie games will usually know what you are talking about.

[Kmd4390]

Raiv, can you give some reasons of your own why CnT is scummy? Or even just tell us what specific points against him you agree with and what answers you don't believe?

[Kmd4390]

phew,
Is that enough for ya Kmd?

Yep. I'm interested to see CnT's response.

[Kmd4390]

1. Why didn't you get aggressive in Newbie 709? Or at least not to the same extent as here.

Well, it was my first game at mafiascum...

Ok. New question then. What made you change your playstyle from the first game to this one?

2. Well first of all, "boring" discussion gives us stronger reads on players and is helpful to the game. Second, with enough discussion, there is plenty to go on. Sure, we don't have anyone dead and confirmed or anything, but you can still get reads on players based on their actions. And if you want the day to end so quickly, why were you scared to put SoaD at L-2. Is he your scumbuddy?

Sure, but sometimes I do like 'risky' discussion...I'm a bit weird that way...

I somewhat disagree, but that doesn't get us anywhere...

Joking around by paranoid, I guess, and it was the joke vote period in the day...

Playing "risky" isn't necessarily the way to go. Remember you have teammate(s) who are (or is) counting on you to play to the best of your ability and win the game. You'll find that most, if not all, Mods on MS have "Play to win" as a rule.

Do you really think that talking in thread and scumhunting is all random stuff that won't do anything?

Did you think that 2 people were going to random vote SoaD and get an "accidental" lynch without giving themselves away as scum?

4. 30 hours isn't that long. People go inactive for days at a time. Not that they should, but they do.

*shrug* I guess I wanted to hear from him soon.

Why?

5. Why didn't you post reasons for such a drastic change in opinions.

It's more of a hunch, rather than solid evidence, really...though, I think I said this before.

You voted Ash a little after his controversial vote on a "hunch"? Did you find his vote scummy? Have you looked back at what may have been causing your hunch?

As I said above, it was a hunch, and while it wasn't much to go on, it's better than nothing.
And I did not say that I was 100% assured that Mizz was town, I just thought that she might be town.

You don't have to backpedal. If you thought Mizz was town, stick with it (unless Ash does something really scummy and you change your mind). If you think Ash is scum, look over his posts and see if there is a case there. You should commit to a stance either way. Changing your mind is fine, but have reasons for it.

Well, isn't it standard procedure to wait for a response before voting?

Depends on the player. I personally vote as soon as i have suspicions. If I am satisfied with a response, I unvote.

[Kmd4390]

And a happy Birthday to Kmd.
Congrats to the both of you

Thanks (again )

[Kmd4390]

What's up with this? no opinions of my post? That CnrT and SoaD are not active doesn't mean we have to dissapear too.... Ash, Raiv, Zaz, Kmd? you there?

Yeah, I'm here. Zazie is around too. She'll probably post tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

I await Syndromes post, but I don't want us to jump to a lynch to soon like what happened with blue (mostly my fault).

Do you think your actions regarding Blue were scummy? Would you do it again?

[Kmd4390]

Ash, are you worried about looking scummy?

[Kmd4390]

Ash, are you worried about looking scummy?

It all depends on how you interpret it.

I'm not really sure how to answer that question to be honest...

Let me phrase it this way.

If you were extremely confident that a player was scum. Let's say 90% sure. And they were at L-1, already claimed (let's say vanilla for sake of argument). Hypothetically, let's say hammering may look scummy and lead to your lynch the next day if you are wrong (it shouldn't, but let's just say it would hypothetically). Do you hammer?

[Kmd4390]

And Kmd, since when do you know when I might post?

Just guessing.

[Kmd4390]

Oh, and...

I'll forgive you if you'll make/join an Ash bandwagon

I'm much more confident in CnT being scum.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry Kmd, but I'm not convinced anymore that CntR is scum.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

1. You're basing his meta upon one game. And this is wrong. My first game was NG 646. I tunnelvisioned hard on one player I thought was scum.
My second game was NG 663. Here I looked at everybody at all times, except when I was convinced that a player couldn't be scum.
I was more aggressive in the first game than in the second. But I was town in both games. You can't speak of a meta with one game as most players try to find out what the best approach is.

2. That vote of SoaD was during the RVS. His vote against Ash was serious. You're making a very bad comparison here as both votes have a different meaning in the game. Most players don't want to lynch somebody with a random vote. That should explain why he would be afraid of putting SoaD at L-2. There have been games where a lynch has been reached within one or two pages. And that doesn't help town. But when you think somebody is scum, you do want them lynched. Which was apparently the case with Ash.
The only thing I do agree with you is that he should have stated the reasons. Now, it could just be the case of trying to escape the suspicions. But I still believe he's innocent. It only bothers me that he left before responding.

3. In my opinion, this would have been scummy if he only mentioned the same lurker each time, and forgot about all the others. But this wasn't the case. So I'd like to know why this is scummy to you.

4. Again, what's scummy about this?

5. He indeed said:

Thought that she was mostly a lurker-ish (who could be putting up a newbie pose) player before she left, but at the moment, I

feel

that she

might

just be a confused townie.

He never stated that he was sure about this. But like I already said, he should have given his reasons.

6. This is indeed true. But Ash hammered somebody without ever mentioning Blue, except for the time when he said that he saw CntR as scummier. So what's your opinion of that? And tell me why that's less scummy than what CntR has done.
So in my opinion, the only scummy thing left is him not saying why Ash was scummy to him at that time and not doing so after he was asked.
I think the Ash and SoaD cases are stronger

1. I agree. The meta was the reason I excused his FoS without a vote. I am discrediting the meta and using this point. Your counter-argument actually backs me here.

2. I disagree. The time to be cautious is when a lynch is actually likely. If he put SoaD at L-2, and two players hammered before we could discuss it... Well, let's just say we'd probably have our scum right there. But later, he is very interested in seeing Ash lynched. The biggest reason this is notable is who the players are. If CnT is scum, SoaD is probably his buddy and Ash is probably town. I also don't think he realized Ash had replaced Mizz. Seeing your scumbuddy replaced is something you remember.

So CnTscum=SoaD +scum points, Ash +town points. Remember this if CnT flips scum.

3. Why does an offense have to be repeated to be scummy? And again, if CnT is scum,

I expect Dennis to be town.

(Never mind. Blue replaced Dennis and flipped town. Guess I was right though. )

4. He used a weak argument. Scum use weak arguments to push an easy lynch.

5. Are non-committal stances town tells? This is exactly why I see them as scumtells (and I didn't even catch this one before ). They allow a player to back off of what they said. Or in this case, they allow another player to back off for them. I prefer to look at what was said over how strongly the position is held. He said Mizz may have been a confused townie. That's his stance. Strong or not, that's what he said. Point stands.

6. Yes, Ash is scummier based on this point alone. But the hammer is the only major point against Ash. I have 6 valid points on CnT, which I think is enough to consider him scummier than Ash.

Also, I hope you realize if CnT flips scum, you get scum points for defending him like this.

[Kmd4390]

Looks like we agree on '1', but you see it as a reason to defend him.

We agree that meta based on one game probably isn't the best thing to use.

But here's where we have different views: My point against CnT was that he FoS'd without voting in the RVS. I wrongly excused that based on another game he played.

Actually. I see what's confusing us:

but my point is that you can't speak of meta and that it's wrong to use it as an attack in this case.

That's not what I was doing. I excused a scumtell based on meta. And I agree with you that it's a bad move. So I posted the scumtell as a point in my case.

2. But what is wrong with adding a little pressure early in Day 1? If we avoided L-2, we'd never get anywhere. And as far as wanting Ash lynched so badly, a lynch can't just happen like that. We need to talk about it, hear opinions, and get a claim.

3. What's wrong with asking a question? Should I have said, "an offense doesn't have to be repeated to be scummy". Same thing. That's just my opinion.

4. He used a very weak argument to attack Dennis for not posting in 30 hours.

5. That is exactly my point. By posting something and not sounding committed to that, you allow yourself to say "Oh, but I never felt that strongly about it anyway." Like if for example, I were to say "Maybe you are scum, but maybe not. I don't really know", can you tell me that wouldn't be scummy?

Off the top of my head, Family Guy. The Internet posted opinions on players. His opinions were all things like "Looks protown, but maybe scum". He didn't commit to a stance all game. He was lynched Day 1 as obvscum.

6. Show me the cases on Ash and SoaD again. I really think CnT is scummier right now though.

FoS for calling out your defense? That's OMGUS and we aren't even in the RVS

[Kmd4390]

@Kevin: Due to Knox last post, I saw the Raivann case from Ash. It's based upon Raivann not having a stance. What's your reason for not giving a comment about this?

Can you quote it? I'm not completely sure what you are talking about, but I probably just didn't see a reason to respond to it.

Here, Kevin says that it will give me scumpoints. In the games I've pointed out, I also came up for the player Kevin attacked. But in both games, Kevin didn't mention at all that it would give me scumpoints. So why would he say that in this game, but not in the other games?

Because in this game you went out of your way to respond point-by-point like you would if it was you I was attacking. I find it suspicious that you can be sure enough of a player's towniness to respond in the way you did. Defending a player is one thing. Responding to every point in the case against a player to deflect the case is another.

And it doesn't have anything to do with me getting scumpoints from Kevin if C_o turns up scum. If I disagree with a case, I'll state my reasons why. Have always done so, and this will not change. Kevin should know this by now. So to me, it's strange that Kevin 'warns' me.

I've seen you assertively call a player town (hewitt in Open 121), but I can't remember you ever going point by point like this.

/confirm

unvote

Hello friends. Reading now.

Oh, it's a party now!

Too bad claiming scum is probably not a good idea in a newbie game. We could have fun with that.

[Kmd4390]

vote ZazieR

Pretty sure this is a good place for a vote.
Pretty sure CntRational is town.

You're gonna have to explain this. I only see Zazie as scum if CnT is scum.

You guys lynched syndromeofadown for 95, right?

SoaD was replaced by knox, who is still alive.

[Kmd4390]

181- kmd, what? I've never seen you pull something like that as town before.

Pull what, exactly? I don't even see anything out of the ordinary in that post.

[Kmd4390]

1. CnT is

still

scummy for that.
2. Admitting to not being protown is obviously scummy unless it's the scum claiming Gambit.
3. Yes, witholding info is scummy.

Really, you are jumping on nothing here.

[Kmd4390]

Charter, if you are scum, you biggest threats are ICs, not newbs. You suspect both Zazie and myself. Coincidence?

Blueshadow was slightly scummier than CnT. And I wasn't looking for a lynch on CnT just yet. My real suspicions on CnT came much later.

1. CnT is

still

scummy for that.
2. Admitting to not being protown is obviously scummy unless it's the scum claiming Gambit.
3. Yes, witholding info is scummy.

Really, you are jumping on nothing here.

1. The reason is not enough for him to be at L-1 currently.
2. ...so what would you rather have him do? Try and cover it up? Admitting to it is better than deflecting or ignoring or something else.
3. No, another bad reason to vote. Clearly he thought he had some clever plan worked up. Clever plans are normally to catch scum, and revealing them early ruins them.

1. See my case. There are more reasons why CnT is scummy.
2. How about not be scummy. Or defend specifically against points. Kind of like Zazie did for CnT.
3. Then why mention it?

[Kmd4390]

It's entirely possible both you and ZazieR are scum and I'm rightly suspicious of you.

How many times have you seen a game where both ICs are scum. It just doesn't happen.

Where did your real suspicions come from?

I'll say it again.

SEE MY CASE ON CNT.

1. Can you refer me the post/s it is? I don't remember it.
2. You can't seriously expect every town newbie in a newbie game to not do something scummy. I still don't see how this one was any indicator of alignment.
3. Pretty much proves my point that that wasn't a reason to vote someone at all. People mention stuff that's dumb all the time as town.

1. 213 and the follow up posts from his and Zazie's defenses on him. Just look for all the posts numbered 1-6.
2. So you want to excuse scummy behavior from newbies? So that's why you are after Zazie and myself. Gotcha.
3. And usually get lynched for it because scum do it more often, amirite?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, yes. It's possible.

Not true in this game though.

[Kmd4390]

Are you suggesting something here?

I'm suggesting that if he's scum and can get an IC lynched, it works to his advantage.

You sure?
(^^ two links)
Please explain Kevin.

Exactly. Thanks for the links.

That's where my suspicions came from.

You can see in my later posts from day 1, that I had rather CntR lynched. Which I tried at the end of day 1.

Why the sudden change from wanting him lynched to defending him as hard as you have?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I need to catch up.

I'll do that after class, but I see I'm at L-1, so claim time.

I'm a cop. I have a guilty on Zaz, but wanted to find her partner before lynching her. The way she defended CO makes me think it's him.

But since I have claimed that now and am dead tonight for sure, I guess it's on the rest of the town to find the other scum now.

Unvote, Vote ZazieR

There's two ways to do this. Lynch Zaz now and see that she is scum, confirming me OR lynch me now (as I'm dead tonight anyway) and her tomorrow when I flip cop.

Either way, we should win this game.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote Vote Kmd

Nothing in your posts day 2 has shown that you got a 'result' that I am scum. I'm gonna find quotes right now that disprove your statement.
Besides, the fact that you only claimed because you're at L-1 (which is not even true) is prove already that you're not the cop as you're risking us to be in Lylo tomorrow. If you were the cop, you'd have crumbed your target especially when trying this stunt.

See the bottom of this post for my crumbs.

Why would he say that I can only be scum if CntR/ Clown is scum when he has a 'guilty result' on me?

To see your answer and see if there is a connection. Your OMGUS attack on me shows that I was a threat because I was right.

I'm calling it right now. You are scum WITH CO.

And Kevin, why did you investigate me?

Because I always feel you are town, even when you aren't, and I like to investigate those who I don't have a proper read on.

Also... KMD... you werent at L-1, I had unvoted in that huge post... I don't know if your read it. you were at L-2 with Charter's and Conspic's votes.

My bad. Hadn't read the long post yet (and still haven't). Doesn't matter anyway. This game is as good as won.

Wow, I was totally right. Guys, look at Kmd4390's posts today, and tell me if he made those knowing ZazieR is scum. The answer is, no he did not. Look at 313 for a huge one, he's agreeing with ZazieR. I would never conceed arguments against someone I knew was scum. Aaaand, this finale

Yep. expected you to tunnel on your original thoughts. You always do.

wait... someone wants to Counter Claim? that should be enough proof that KMD is lying at the risk of outing yourselves and being killed tomorrow... But we will have lynched scum...

Scum won't counter. I'm as good as dead tonight anyway, so they won't out themselves to get me lynched.

Just so that no one gets any ideas, I assume Kmd is going to flip scum, that DOES NOT mean that ZazieR is not his partner. Entirely possible she is...

This is

hilarious

that you would think that. But again, you stick to your original thoughts.

Really though. Would scum claim a guilty on

their partner

? And in a newbie game? Not sure about you, but I sure as hell wouldn't.

Hell, you should know that if I were going to fake a guilty, it would NOT be on Zaz. In any game. Regardless of anyone's alignment.

Oh... it seems KMD never pushed a case against the person he had guilty on... ODD....

Cop. Dont counter claim. My bad.

The reason for this is mini 650. I was sure one person was scum. Another claimed my role (doc). I countered the fake doc and told the town DO NOT FORGET the other scum. That scum survived to endgame and they won. I decided I should have lynched the scum I was very sure on before the other scum as they'd see my flip anyway.

I took that knowledge into this game. I wanted to find Zaz's partner before lynching her. Also, I really like playing games with her, so I didn't want her dead just yet.

How can he say "if ZazieR is scum" if he has a guilty on her? He would KNOW without a doubt, she is scum. This statement makes no sense!

I don't claim out of the blue. See Family Guy (the mini, not large). I was cop with a guilty on Rock. I never once claimed it. I still got him lynched, but I didn't use my guilty result to do it.

What I don't get is why he said that he was looking for your scumbuddy by voting CnrT... It would be easier to push for YOUR lynch and look at others reactions.

And let myself, the cop, get killed at night? No thanks. If she thought I had a town read on her, I'd have a better chance of surviving.

@Kmd – Who are you suspicious of being the scum partner?

Pretty sure you and Charter are town based on interactions with Zaz. Also thinking very strongly that CO is her partner. If not him, it's probably Raiv as I have a town read on alex.

Kmd said that I could only be scum if CntR is scum.
That's what I meant with that quote.

So how does that make sense when he has a 'guilty result' on me?

I was reinforcing the "town read" I was trying to show.

He was voting for CnrT, pushing CnrT's case from the beginning of the day. Íf he had guilty on Zaz he should've pushed her instead. What If Zaz was scumpartner of someone other than CnrT? That's a lucky shot. Saying that Zaz was scum for defending CnrT... He didn't know CnrTs' allignment but DID know Zaz (supposedly)...

He suggests Cnrt/C_O is her partner. Read.

Always think ahead in mafia.

Let's say I claimed at the beginning of Day 2. We lynch Zaz. One scum down. Ok, that's good.

But...

We lose our Cop Night 2. We lose the last IC Night 2 (Charter is a good player too, but wasn't around yet). We have a short Day and limited discussion. And we have limited connections to find the second scum.

I still believe waiting was better because:

Yes, the cop/last IC will be dead, but now, along with lynching scum, we've had some good discussion. We have possible connections. And most important, we can win the game a lot easier than we could have if I had claimed at the beginning of the day.

Same reasons as

yesterday

:

Oh, want my breadcrumb?

This movie is about HIV. A character in the movie is HIV positive. I am positive about a scum in the game. How positive? HIV positive!

I crumbed camn style.

Then:

Hmm. I actually don't see the case on SoaD.

Zazie attacked SoaD. This is me saying that I think he is town as I don't see her bussing at this time.

So can we lynch scum now or do we have to see my cop flip first?

[Kmd4390]

@KMD: mmm... I understand your thoughts... But I didn't understand what your supposed crumb is...

It's simple. The movie "Yesterday" is about HIV. When someone has HIV, they are said to be HIV positive. I was positive about something in this game, which normal townies can never be. Therefore, I am a cop who is positive I have scum.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, alex mentioned his long post. I'll respond now.

Kmd4390*

I thought it was weird that I hadn't jokevoted you before, so I looked

at our past games.

Cnt was the one I had a problem with. At least until I looked up his

meta. The FoS without voting always looks suspicious to me. In the RVS, it's even

worse. But seeing that he played a cautious game as town in his other game, I think

that's a null tell as well. Maybe even a slight town tell.

Didn't you later used this to make a case against CnrT?

I dismissed the meta, and used the point anyway.

Hum...Well, since we cannot continue ahead

without blue, we can discuss a few things while he's gone...

Why not?

This is excessive. It looks like being sure you're always asking questions. Being

on the detective side.

My playstyle is to ask a lot of questions.

No talking about the

kills? Weird.

Talking about the kills brings in WIFOM that we don't need.

Hmm. I actually don't see the case on SoaD.

But doesn't say why...

I've just explained this. :Wink:

@KMD: What is your read on Raiv?

I think that if CO is town, Raiv is scum by process of elimination.

[Kmd4390]

dude... that's not a crumb... you could've just made it up when you claimed...

A crumb can be seen by someone if you don't say it. But is very subtle so It'll probably go unnoticed.

And you weren't positive about CnrT. You were positive about Zaz... I don't see a breadcrumb there at all. It looks kinda fake if I have to tell you the truth.

I took a shot at using Camn's subtle crumbing.

She'll take something so subtle that scum can not pick up on it and then she'll use it when she claims. That's what I did here.

I've seen scum fakeclaim cop to save themselves, and claim a guilty on their partner. And it was in a newbie game. This is another one of those terrible lines of logic you've been using for a while.

I don't think that is the way to play newbie games. For example, I'd never bus a buddy in a newbie game although I would in a normal game.

Also, you didn't mention the other part of that post. Why would I fake a guilty on Zaz? I'd feel too badly afterwards if I did that.

[Kmd4390]

I really wish this didn't happen right before deadline, but should we massclaim before deadline?

Does it matter?

The doc is dead and the cop has claimed. Everyone else is either VT or scum.

[Kmd4390]

Also why would Kmd post some of the stuff that he did in this post if he /quote]

Wanted Zaz to think I saw her as town. If I showed a connection between her buddy and someone else, the CnT lynch wouldn't look like the end of her game. We could lynch CnT and then I'd claim my guilty for a guaranteed win.

Yeah, I'm thinking Kmd knows there is no cop, because he is scum with two goons.

vote Kmd4390

Sorry, but your story just don't add up.

How would scum know there is no cop?

[Kmd4390]

Also why would Kmd post some of the stuff that he did in this post if he knew Zazie was scum?

Wanted Zaz to think I saw her as town. If I showed a connection between her buddy and someone else, the CnT lynch wouldn't look like the end of her game. We could lynch CnT and then I'd claim my guilty for a guaranteed win.

Yeah, I'm thinking Kmd knows there is no cop, because he is scum with two goons.

vote Kmd4390

Sorry, but your story just don't add up.

How would scum know there is no cop?

(Tags fix'd)

[Kmd4390]

Also, why do you keep ignoring this:

Hell, you should know that if I were going to fake a guilty, it would NOT be on Zaz. In any game. Regardless of anyone's alignment.

Also, you didn't mention the other part of that post. Why would I fake a guilty on Zaz? I'd feel too badly afterwards if I did that.

[Kmd4390]

Also, why do you keep ignoring this:

Hell, you should know that if I were going to fake a guilty, it would NOT be on Zaz. In any game. Regardless of anyone's alignment.

Also, you didn't mention the other part of that post. Why would I fake a guilty on Zaz? I'd feel too badly afterwards if I did that.

I fail at tags today. Fix'd again.

[Kmd4390]

If there is a mafia roleblocker there is a cop, if there are two goons there is no cop.

Oh. Right. Missed that.

But you don’t really, you just give her scum points if CntR flips scum who you think is actually her scum buddy.

Because I didn't want her cleared to everyone else if I happened to die. I just wanted her to feel safe.

[Kmd4390]

I mean, I wouldn't think you would do it. But then you could do it just because no one would expect it. It's kind of circular.

I wouldn't.

And Knox was the hammer.

Zaz, Alex, Charter, Knox.

Use my info. Lynch Zaz tomorrow. I'd look at CO next, but don't forget about Raiv either.

I'll disappear now.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, alex unvoted, but CO was voting me anyway.

So I'm dead.

[Kmd4390]

Just checked. It's an actual lynch.

I just want to say I think I'm done playing newbie games after this. I played terribly and don't deserve to be an IC.

Good luck everyone. Have fun.

[Kmd4390]

Oh. This game ended.

I am not happy with my performance, but I'll comment anyway.

I should have realized there was no cop. I didn't. I thought Zaz was a cop, so that was why I claimed the guilty on her. Her counter claim would have looked suspicious. I mean, can you imagine?

Kmd: I'm a cop with a guilty on Zaz
Zaz: No, I'm the cop.

That was what I was hoping for. I'd have trusted Raiv to kill CO after we killed Charter and I was lynched and then he'd win in 3 player LYLO.

But obviously, there was no cop. Zaz looked like a cop because her change of opinion on CnT came right around the change from Day 1 to Day 2.

So, anyway, that's why I failed as scum. And I left a connection to my buddy, who played an otherwise good game. I tried to connect myself to Zaz and Knox as I was going down. Didn't work though.

She replaced out for personal reasons that I'd rather not go into.

Raiv, sorry about the loss. You did a great job of appearing protown. You'd have won with a better buddy.

Charter, amazing job coming in and nailing both scum.

Porkens, great job replacing in to catch Raiv.

Alex, you mostly played well and made good decisions. Try not to be too easily influenced in the future though. The person whose reasoning sounds the most solid can very easily be scum who is good with words.

Oh, and I faked the breadcrumb. It never existed. I looked at my first post of the day and googled it. That movie was the first thing to come up, so I turned it into a fake breadcrumb. Last minute desperation thing.

So. Sorry to my scumbuddy for screwing this up. Sorry to the newbies for showing a bad example of how to play. After the newb game I'm still in, I am done as IC.

If anyone still wants to hear from me in endgame, I'll be glad to answer questions to the best of my ability.

Alex, we didn't have a QT, but I can dig out PMs if you want them. Not tonight though. I'm getting tired.

[Kmd4390]

I don't think you played such a bad game. You should continue IC-ing. The only non-IC thing you did was stating that both IC's couldn't be scum together. But the IC wiki says that if you misdirect newbies as scum you can explain it in the endgame, what's the supposed way in wich things are done and that's it.

Yeah, that was 100% intentional misdirection on my part. Well, in a different way. I wasn't actually trying to argue that both ICs couldn't be scum. I was saying it as an attempt to leave a connection between Zaz and myself. I knew Charter would call BS. He had expressed suspicion on Zaz, so this was my way of trying to help Raiv before I went down.

I'll try. This is why I'm always afraid of logical pro town players... like you and Zaz. What if they're scum?

You can follow a player's logic if you think it makes sense. But still try to judge the player's townieness/scuminess and try to think more for yourself and less with other people. Look for holes in good logic. If there aren't any, maybe you ARE looking at a logical townie. If you see holes, it doesn't necessarily make the player scum, but it means they could be wrong.

But everyone seemed to dismiss my points which I thought were pretty good even if they were more based on his play and gut. Why was that? It was great when charter came and had his own opinion about Raivann as it reassured me that I wasn’t completely crazy! Did my points help at all in the lynch of Raivann or were only Porkens? This was my first proper game to finish so what should I do and not do next time?

A lot of people think what they think and won't change their mind very easily. So being right won't always win a game. You have to be persuasive too. Don't be afraid to use sarcasm and exaggeration even as town trying to prove a point. I've given this same advice to a pretty experienced player who is right most of the time, but has a hard time convincing others. If you can do both (be right AND convince everyone), that is the key to being a great town player.

[Kmd4390]

I suppose my big suggestion to scum would be not to blatently shift wagons like both of you did. It was very very easy to pick up on when reading through the game and is a pretty reliable scumtell.

Actually, I'd have done that as town too. *shrug*

Oh, and I am sad at Raivann for NKing me. Shame on you.

It had to be either you or CO. I think I would have probably picked you too.