Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[Adel]

Wahey!!!

First post in...

Ok...

Original Roll String: 1d23 (STATIC)

1 23-Sided Dice: (20) = 20

vote: Firestarter

for using dice.

If the random voting stage is truely random then it will not yield information. Why don't you want to risk making a pseudo-random vote that could yield information?

[Adel]

I'm totally against claiming during day 1 in this setup. I think waiting until day 4 or day 5 would be better. Has everyone read the set up? The game farside referenced was guaranteed to be over in two days. This game will take many days to finish, and I think a massclaim will eventually be a good idea, just not for the first two or three days.

[Adel]

I'm totally against claiming during day 1 in this setup. I think waiting until day 4 or day 5 would be better. Has everyone read the set up? The game farside referenced was guaranteed to be over in two days. This game will take many days to finish, and I think a massclaim will eventually be a good idea, just not for the first two or three days.

Why is claiming bad?

because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that I won't announce until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.

[Adel]

Hello peeps

Would having a mass claim really benefit the town or harm them? Personally though I think it really wouldn't make a difference but thats why i'm asking.

pros: simplifies relationships, and reduces the game to a 2:2:8 mountainous setup populated by hydras. Makes lynch-all-lurkers more of a viable tactic.

cons: may prevent certain sumtells from being made.

[Adel]

unvote: firestarter, vote:OpposedForce

[Adel]

your rather obvious mistake, and my superior scum-detection ability.

[Adel]

I'm here, the massclaim discussion has reached it's conclusion already so we should give it a rest and get on with the scumhunting. I'm not sure about OP, I believe town is more likely to miss Crazy's "IF YOU ASK ABOUT THIS, I'LL THINK YOU'RE SCUM" note (not a good move, btw), since scum's inclined to look thouroughly into everything said about a secret tell.

Since I don't have the time to read them atm, can somebody who played/read 'em give a synopsis of those two polygamist games HP mentioned?

one is on-going, and shouldn't be talked about.

[Adel]

Alabaska J: Can you please stop using caps. It makes you look hyperactive and scummy about a few votes. There is 13 votes needed to lynch and 8 scums total let us be aware of that when we vote please.

I would almost be willing to use our day 1 lynch as a behavioral check to keep disruptive players (Alabaska J) in line.

[Adel]

lynching Gimbo was always the right answer.

[Adel]

I just hope adels "tell" isn't just some mathematical formula that will wind up getting her lynched.

I hope ThAdmiral's play in this game amounts to more than popping in just often enough to drop a one liner and avoid being prodded.

[Adel]

I think it is called buddying up. Is it worth a vote?

~~~~~~

speaking of votes, people are being way conservative with their votes so far. This isn't a mini.

The first person to place the 9th vote on someone gets a brownie.
Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go!

[Adel]

Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

I'm 99.9997% sure this line is bullshit.

The only thing Crazy can really be sure of is that I am not in his scum group.

unvote, vote:Crazy

hello, it is only day 1 in game with more that 20 players. Nobody can be sure of anyone else's alignment.

[Adel]

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

not only are you wrong about the validity of your supposed tell, it wouldn't require waiting 3 or 4 game days to work.

[Adel]

I've added daytalking to the setup and will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

Also, note that I've amended rules 1 and 12.

this is what I Crazy missed. Apparently, all players got a daytalking Quicktopic PM after their initial role PM.

What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.

I don't think he can explain that away.

[Adel]

mod:

are we allowed to cut and paste from our day talking threads into the game thread?

[Adel]

I just hope adels "tell" isn't just some mathematical formula that will wind up getting her lynched.

This is a useless one-liner that almost sounds like fishing for the tell..

FoS ThAdmiral

Not fishing. This has happened before in a game we were both in. Her tell was wrong too, I believe.

did you know that I've won 12 out of 18 games as town since mini 515?

how has your record been since that game?

[Adel]

also, ThAdmiral wasn't fishing in that post.

~~~

I am really curious what other members of the Crazy wagon are thinking about Crazy's alignment right now.

[Adel]

Where do you get this if one dies all four die from?

from not reading the rules or the game set up carefully.

@farside: are you guys daytalking much?

[Adel]

@farside: are you guys daytalking much?

[Adel]

@ icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce, charter, & Cephrir

why are/aren't you still voting for Crazy?

[Adel]

@ icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce, charter, & Cephrir

why are/aren't you still voting for Crazy?

Why are you asking just them this question?

how about I answer your question after they answer my question?

[Adel]

thanks charter.

@ icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce,

charter

, & Cephrir

why are/aren't you still voting for Crazy?

icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce & Cephrir?

[Adel]

5. You must

Unvote

before placing another vote.

Any votes placed without unvoting first will not be counted

.

ah, this would be the rule that explains why Crazy is stil at 9 votes.

[Adel]

In another game I was in with Crazy...

link please.

[Adel]

unvote

reality check: why is Crazy -2 to lynch?

Are there no other wagons worth exploring?

[Adel]

speaking of votes, people are being way conservative with their votes so far. This isn't a mini.

The first person to place the 9th vote on someone gets a brownie.
Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go!

13 minus 9 is 4, not 2.

13 - 11 = 2

you and sleepy panda voted for him since the last vote count, where he was at nine.

[Adel]

speaking of votes, people are being way conservative with their votes so far. This isn't a mini.

The first person to place the 9th vote on someone gets a brownie.
Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go!

13 minus 9 is 4, not 2.

The point Adel was emphasizing was "people are being way conservative with their votes", not "place the 9th vote on someone", and certainly not "place no more than the 9th vote on someone". And in a large game, arguing over the difference between L-4 and L-2 is splitting hairs. "L-2 is closer to lynch than L-4" is not a satisfactory explanation for a 180 jump like that.

If we assume that ThAdmiral was genuine in attempting to place a vote on Crazy, then we basically have Crazy at lynch -1.

I was happy with the nine votes on Crazy, i was happy with 10, but 11 seems a little much. We have our strong wagon, and I think it is time to think really hard about the Crazy case, and consider alternatives.

@Farsaide: at the time I felt he was pretty close to cleared, and I wanted the scum on his wagon to really commit to it. His behavior since then, as well as yours (your activity level in particular reminds me of farside-scum I've seen in the past) really threw that in doubt though. I wanted the other members of the Crazy wagon to explain why they were voting for Crazy, and hopefully the scum there would dig a hole for themselves. As thing currently stand I would like to hit "pause" on the Crazy wagon and pursue other options, but it is starting to look like the Crazy wagon has too much momentum to stop.

[Adel]

@farside: based off of destructor's posts, it really looks to me like the day talking was added for all players after the initial role PMs were sent out. Crazy's massclaim reversal makes sense if he thought we would be able to quote our daytalking threads, and that the scum were not also given day talking threads at the same time as the townies.

What I want to know is what you guys said (paraphrase only) in your day talking thread regarding the massclaim and Crazy's idea of quoting daytalking threads on day 3 or day 4.

[Adel]

I also don't like Crazy and Farside's attack on Charter. They're too united and OMGUSy, looks to me like they just chose a wagoner and attacked him in unison.

seriously, we can't expect claimed lovers not to be united. We really can't expect unclaimed lovers not to be united in thier suspicions for that matter.

[Adel]

What I want to know is what you guys said (paraphrase only) in your day talking thread regarding the massclaim and Crazy's idea of quoting daytalking threads on day 3 or day 4.

I paraphrased our daytalking a while back. You can look through my posts and find it. Of course, we've both said some more stuff since then.

did you miss the "@farside" part?

[Adel]

2. I don't believe the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument is sound.

I want to see icemanE to explain this.

vote: icemanE

[Adel]

Unvote: Vote: Raging Rabbit

With Crazy & Farside claimed lovers. you seem to be defending them more than anything else...

You give plenty of reasons to vote Crazy in your posts, yet at the end of several you say your happy with where your vote is... please explain?

one the very same page

It's not that I think he knew it wasn't valid; I don't see anything pointing one way or the other in that regard. It's that I think he was more concerned with using the tell to clear himself than to catch scum. I believe this because of:

1: His insistence that scum couldn't come up with the tell
2: His "it's better that I get lynched as town than reveal the tell" post, followed by revealing the tell once people started doubting him.

1 isn't scummy if he truely believed the daytalk tell, but I agree with 2 and find Crazy scummy for numerous other things. The reason I'm not voting for him is that it really seems to me that he earnestly believed the daytalk tell, and if he did he has to be town.

This for me is stronger then all my suspicions of him, and I encourage Crazy wagoners to take this into acount. If you also think he honestly believed the tell, I can't see why you're voting him.

I don't understand firestarter's post.

[Adel]

@Neko26, Adel..

Crazy could be scum with an elaborate plan... Im not convinced however.

In 3 succesive RR posts, and before the post Adel quoted, he gives enough reasons to vote Crazy, imo, during and after Crazy got his scumtell wrong....

I found this odd.

Could be a scum partner, could also be buddying up, I'd like to hear from RR.

unvote, vote:Firestarter

I just read through RR's posts in isolation.

Firestarter was trying to drop a quiet vote on someone who wasn't on Crazy, and who isn't one of the other scummy players.

[Adel]

Unvote: Vote: Raging Rabbit

With Crazy & Farside claimed lovers. you seem to be defending them more than anything else... You give plenty of reasons to vote Crazy in your posts, yet at the end of several you say your happy with where your vote is... please explain?

this sounds like a copherent case, but it totally breaks down when I look at RR's post record which does not support your case.

Now that you are under questioning, your posts are making less and less sense.

[Adel]

copherent = coherent with a law enforcement background. (joke)

unvote

reality check: why is Crazy -2 to lynch?

Are there no other wagons worth exploring?

I think it is lovely that you voted for someone besides Crazy, but your case does not hold water. I still think you were looking for a good place to drop your vote.

[Adel]

If I were to make a case, I think you'd find I would have put alot more effort into my post, rather than just a reactionary vote post, similar to yours...

Thanks for fucking that up however....

unvote

reality check: why is Crazy -2 to lynch?

Are there no other wagons worth exploring?

so you thought you would explore a RR wagon without posting a case?

How was that supposed to work?

Are you saying that the reasons you gave for voting for RR were not sincere?

Do you have a secret case against RR that has evidence that won't evaporate once light is shown on it?

[Adel]

I'm calling the Firestarter + IcemanE scum team.

Glory onto me when I'm proven correct.

[Adel]

IN

3 succesive RR posts

, and before the post Adel quoted, he gives enough reasons to vote Crazy, imo, during and after Crazy got his scumtell wrong....

Let us look at RR's last 4 posts before Firestarter made this post:

I also don't like Crazy and Farside's attack on Charter. They're too united and OMGUSy, looks to me like they just chose a wagoner and attacked him in unison.

It's not that I think he knew it wasn't valid; I don't see anything pointing one way or the other in that regard. It's that I think he was more concerned with using the tell to clear himself than to catch scum. I believe this because of:

1: His insistence that scum couldn't come up with the tell
2: His "it's better that I get lynched as town than reveal the tell" post, followed by revealing the tell once people started doubting him.

1 isn't scummy if he truely believed the daytalk tell, but I agree with 2 and find Crazy scummy for numerous other things. The reason I'm not voting for him is that it really seems to me that he earnestly believed the daytalk tell, and if he did he has to be town. This for me is stronger then all my suspicions of him, and I encourage Crazy wagoners to take this into acount.

If you also think he honestly believed the tell, I can't see why you're voting him.

Cephrir & Iceman - You claim that Crazy believed his daytalk tell was valid, but is still scum. But scum have their own daytalk forum, and thus scum-Crazy would

know

townies aren't the only ones with daytalk and thus

know

his scumtell isn't valid. I'd like you to explain how this is possible.

But you have to believe he was making the daytalk stuff up if you think he's scum, otherwise he can't be.

Which were the 3 succesive posts in a row you were referring to?

[Adel]

No... skimming through, this caught my eye.
As I stated, reactionary vote. Just like yours.. without a case.

my vote for you is based upon catching you making a bullshit case and then lying about it.

Why is your vote on RR?

[Adel]

If I were to make a case, I think you'd find I would have put alot more effort into my post

, rather than just a reactionary vote post, similar to yours...

so if your vote isn't based off of a case that required effort, what is it based off of?
Why did you vote for RR?
Why is your vote still on RR?

[Adel]

No...

skimming through, this caught my eye.

As I stated, reactionary vote. Just like yours.. without a case.

Heres an idea.... why dont I get the feedback Ive called for from RR... thank you!

he allready clearly explained it in the posts you obliquely referred to as the basis of your vote on him.

Your stated reason for voting for him do not stand up, and now you want to leave your vote on him until he repeats the explaination that you somehow missed in the posts you want an explaination for. WTF!

I'm not buying it.


You voted for nonsense reasons, and once the stated premise behind your vote is shown to either be incorrect if not fraudulent you try a transparent stalling technique.

Not in my town.


~~~

@carter: you can't expect lovers not to cooperate or defend each other. That just isn't a scumtell in this setup.

Any case against Crazy needs to explain why his scumtell + quote daytalking scheme doesn't go a long way towards clearing him.

In the meantime Firestarter just made a really scummy vote on RR who had just voted for icemanE. I think icemanE is the player, other than Crazy, most likely to be lynched today. I would suggest taking a particularly close look at RR, icemanE, and Firestarter during your re-read.

[Adel]

@somestrangeflea: I almost forgot, here is your brownie:

[Adel]

these posts constitute part the reason why I voted for you

Additionally, crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap. Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

The role PMs on the first page say everyone gets a daytalk forum.

Ah, but reading over them again, it seems the scum each get a forum where they're allowed to talk to their entire team at once instead of just their lover. This changes things. I'm going to review with that in mind.

Crazy's tell may not have been as crazy as some people (like icemanE) would like for the rest of the town to believe.

[Adel]

these posts constitute part the reason why I voted for you

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

The role PMs on the first page say everyone gets a daytalk forum.

Ah, but reading over them again, it seems the scum each get a forum where they're allowed to talk to their entire team at once instead of just their lover. This changes things. I'm going to review with that in mind.

Crazy's tell may not have been as crazy as some people (like icemanE) would like for the rest of the town to believe.

these posts constitute part the reason why I voted for you

OK, so what's the rest of the reason?

Additionally, can you elaborate, as I don't see anything wrong with either of those posts.

you got a pm giving your scumteam a place to talk, but you didn't know that townies also got a pm giving them a daytalk PM! It is freaking obvious!

[Adel]

WTF are you talking about Adel? You've made a case out of something that doesn't even exist...

I wonder if Cephrir, Erratus Apathos or Alabaska J will be able to explain it to you...

[Adel]

I wonder if Cephrir, Erratus Apathos or Alabaska J will be able to explain it to you...

As do i, and I wonder if they can. Are you attempting to say here that if a certain number of people join a wagon, it's a justified wagon? That no matter how baseless or unfounded a wagon is, as long as a certain number of people are on it, it's cool? that seems to be what you're implying.

{snip}

you completely made up an argument/summary of something I never said

lol!

[Adel]

"IcemanE has a habit of drawing suspicion from everyone around him, even when he is a townie. "

sig line abuse.

[Adel]

unvote, vote:icemanE

[Adel]

Ice: for believing in the crazy wagon and for not knowing that townies got a daytalk forum.

I wonder if sekinj (in addition to Cephrir, Erratus Apathos and Alabaska J)

can explain why people think that icemanE revealed that he didn't know that townies got a daytalking PM after they got their role pm.

[Adel]

this is where Crazy revealed his tell

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

but it gets better,

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.

Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.

There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?

There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.

How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,

unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell"

. The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?

the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is

You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,

despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell

(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.

icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.

let us review:

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

this post is the real scum-trap.

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

[Adel]

does everyone recall this post?

Links?

The best example I can think of to relate to what I think has happened here is this one, from Mini 615. AwesomePants was the Demon King in the game and he made this little slipup, which no one, including myself, caught before it was too late:

Awesome's post 181 is essentially a full analysis of the game from the Demon King's perspective. Here's a piece of it:

Hmm.. I think the DK knowing who the hunter is at this stage of the game could be bad town. If the DK knows then he can keep him alive through the game and never recruit him. On the other hand, the town would have at least one cleared innocent that, for as long as he/she was alive, would be protown. I think that'd be good in a way.

If the hunter didn't claim, then the DK wouldn't know and could possibly kill him during the night rather than recruiting someone. At this stage of the game, that'd mean that we'd either come into d3 at 2/3 (if we mislynched) or 3/2 (if we correctly lynched). Alternatively, if the hunter didn't get killed we'd come into d3 at 2/4 (if we mislynched) or 3/3 (if we lynch correctly).

That 2/4 is a bit worrying, but I suppose so is the 2/3.

I guess at least with the DK claiming before he's about to get lynched we have another shot at hitting scum.

The bolding is mine, and is the essential mistake he made that was breezed over. It looks like a simple mixup - he meant to say "I guess at least with the HUNTER claiming before he's about to get lynched", but screwed up and said DK instead. But it's little mistakes like those I've learned are most telling.

The other example is in an ongoing game so I can't justifiably link to it or discuss it.

[Adel]

If you could quote where I said I didn't know townies got a day-talk forum, I'll love you forever.

I asked Crazy if he got some sort of SPECIAL INFORMATION after his role PM, not the link to his daytalk forum. The link to the daytalk forum isn't SPECIAL INFORMATION because EVERYONE GOT IT. I pointed out after looking over the role PMs that the scum and werewolf PM's say "team" instead of "lover." You're either misreading or, as I've said, just making things up.

In 164 you claimed that the towies role PM being posted on the first page was the reason why the town couldn't have secret information. In fact, we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

your repeated emphasis on "special message" is what is damning you.

[Adel]

I have not been lazy in this game, and I have the feeling that a bunch of players are following me. Since I do not have a good read on over half of the players here, I will take a back seat in this game for now, and allow other people to have their voice heard.

@RR- the post following the one where you asked your question answered your question.

[Adel]

@ice and OP: with three days to go until deadline, I am open to the idea of moving my vote to someone else. Even if you are scum, there is still another scum team out there, and your insight could prove valuable.

If not you, then who should we lynch?

[Adel]

in future game you probably shouldn't self vote. Even though many experienced players (like me) generally take it as a null-tell for most playstyles, you really got beat up for it.

[Adel]

7. At deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched. In the event of a draw, the player who reached the most votes first will be lynched.

just so everyone is clear, apparently we don't have to worry about non-lynches in this game.

~~~

unvote, vote:DarlaBlueEyes

[Adel]

why don't you join me? she did put ice at lynch -1 without warning.

[Adel]

or she was trying to get onto her scum buddies bus before it left the town.

or she was scum who gave an innocent iceman's wagon some push, and now she is worried about getting called out day 2 for not following through with her promised post.

all aboard the DBE wagon!!!

40+ hours to go before the deadline, we can do it!

GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!

[Adel]

Wait, Iceman is way worse. No way I'm changing my vote now.

why? what makes Iceman worse?

[Adel]

The number of people who are suspicious of RR and yet are sharing a wagon with him are making me a bit nervous.

~~~

@ Alabaska: why are you voting for iceman? Doesn't the way I led the town onto his wagon make you suspicious?

[Adel]

I just really want Iceman to die.

that is just about the scummiest think you said all game.

[Adel]

Waiting for deadline.

Not happy with the "L-1 is badbadbad" crowd, especially people who are complaining about the -1 whilst still voting for Ice. Namely... uhm... Adel.

look again.

[Adel]

Waiting for deadline.

Not happy with the "L-1 is badbadbad" crowd, especially people who are complaining about the -1 whilst still voting for Ice. Namely... uhm... Adel.

look again.

Here is a Votecount showing Adel voting IcemanE.
Here is Adel's reasonless Vote for DarlaBlueEyes, which was quickly followed by a reason.

My quoted post had more present tense than it should have. I meant to say that I wasn't happy with people who were attacking DBE's -1 even though they themselves were voting Iceman when DBE voted. I believe the classic "All votes are equally dangerous" argument applies here.

Or, what AJ said.

While my case against icemanE was sincere, I became more and more alarmed as other people joined his wagon in a manner that would not leave them accountable in the event of a mislynch. DBE lurking and then finially placing a lynch-1 vote without warning was the last straw. I firmly believe that more strong wagon yield more information, giving the town more of a chance to win in the long run. icemanE's wagon coasting along without additional input from the people joining the wagon is a bad sign.

I have serious problems with a few people who are on the icemanE wagon, including AJ for not being able or willing to explain why he was voting for icemanE. I think it is interesting that he moved so quickly from "what Adel said" as his reason for voting for icemanE to "Adel is scum".

[Adel]

I'm calling the Firestarter + IcemanE scum team.

Glory onto me when I'm proven correct.

vote: OpposedForce

[Adel]

Adel, do you still feel your scumtell is more valuable than a mass claim at this point?

I'm currently of the opinion that we need wider participation in this game right now. I think we should massclaim.

[Adel]

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

If you're town and you feel this way, why not point out other options?

"I think he's scum" doesn't

mean

anything. It should be obvious. It's not really a reason because it should apply to everyone you want to lynch. But by having it as an entirely separate reason, you've drawn attention to that obvious fact, something which I think is the behavior of scum attacking a scum non-buddy.

This is REALLY desperate and contrived.

unvote, vote: somestrangeflea

Are you saying this is where we should be focused on? A vote you placed because of one post? After you voted him, you have directed no additional questions towards flea. This is better than the cases people have built on Fire or iceman?

I'm just saying that a good Day 1 is a day where feelers are put out in multiple directions, where pressure is applied to several players, where alliances are shown up and where the town keeps an open mind.

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

I strongly suspect that the answer from most people, if Fire/Ice are scum, will now be 'Let's attack Dybeck tomorrow' but meh. There's a vast majority of people in this town from whom you have no kind of reading. And that's because too much attention is being pointed in a single direction.

I've made this speech too many times before, and usually end up getting lynched for it but, hey, maybe that's my lot in life.

And yes, you're right, I've been lazy this game too. The time for this speech was probably not so late in the day when, of course, it just smacks of trying to derail a scum bandwagon.

where in the hell did this post come out of? HUGE wifom. Look at his other posts, there is nothing else like it.

soft defense of icemanE + big stinky WIFOM trap = a pretty good guess for who the last werewolf is.

I would rather lynch mafia today though.

[Adel]

I am male.

Please explain why Adel-scum would switch her vote from one townie to another right at the end of the day.

So that when the townie from the first wagon is lynched she looks like town.

care to update your theory?

[Adel]

proposed: if twelve players post

massclaim

in bold letters, then we all massclaim.
Order will not matter, everyone should just pipe off.


~~~

massclaim

[Adel]

Speaking of which, I don't understand the need to lynch werewolves today over mafia, or vice versa. Can someone explain why it matters?

It is easier to spot a group of four than a group of two.

[Adel]

I'm loving the Adel wagon. All aboard!

[Adel]

has anyone noticed that we are on page 29?

Has anyone noticed that people aren't following me?

Has anyone noticed that we lynched scum before I flip-flopped on the massclaim.

[Adel]

What exactly is all this lover speculation supposed to accomplish?

spamming up the thread, corruption of the signal:noise ratio, and possible to bury the one very legitimate case presented so far this day.

[Adel]

it changes the dynamics of the game. My scumtell idea works better if there are four scum pairs left in the game. Anyhow, I've lost some faith in my scumtell since I was typing out a post and almost hit "submit" before I noticed that it was full of the type of behavor my scumtell depended upon identifying in scum. I now suspect that the number of false positives will be too high for my scumtell to be worth very much. I also think that if we are going to pressure lurkers, like SSF, then it is necessary to massclaim. One player lurking is anti-town. Both lover in a couple lurking is scummy.

[Adel]

potential scumtell: a player distancing himslef from his lover prior to claiming.
basis: scum tend to distance themselves from their partners, and could also distance themselves from their lover out of habit or reflex. A

fos

of a lover would be a particularly strong version of the tell.

I didn't lose faith in the iceman lynch, I lost faith in the informational potential of the iceman lynch, especially if it proved to be a mislynch. I also wanted to identify who was blindly following me, and to put some pressure on DBE to post more.

[Adel]

here, i support the mass claim, so does my lover.
My lover is OpposedForce

try posting

massclaim

in bold letter. Also consider not claiming without town consensus next time.

I only count four players who support the massclaim at this point.

[Adel]

why would a scum FOS their partner while knowing an eventual massclaim would be inevitable?

by getting too caught up with pretending to be town and pretending not to know who the other members of the scum team are. That is one approach I use to catch scum: identify where error creeps in when a scum player attempts to emulate townie play.


but like I said, I lost some faith in it after I almost attacked my lover in the game thread.

[Adel]

my lover is pwnz

[Adel]

There are a few potentially sound wagons starting.

I think everyone who isn't voting should vote for someone as soon as possible. Just looking over the last three pages there are several stong posts attacking different players.

Every player clearly should have a stong enough opinion on someone at this point to be voting for that person.

[Adel]

During rereads, I noticed that the HP/Cerebus team seemed to offer the most defense for the iceman/fire pair. I keep reading Cerebus’s question about what started the firestarter wagon wrong, though, and I’m thinking RR is doing the same. It doesn’t seem so scummy when taken in context.

I don't see the case on AJ/dybeck/kloud as very strong other than just telling people they're wrong. I think one instance of AJ doing this was in reference to dybeck, so, that would make sense anyway. They're not high on my list.

OF and wolf - The case against Crazy is just filled with bad info. OF is taking everything out of context, from Crazy's early viewing of Adel as town, to Crazy's enlisting of Adel's support now. I think it may have been somewhat lazy for Crazy to ask Adel to push the wagon more, but I don't think there is necessarily anything scummy about it. I don't see Crazy using Adel as a crutch, as OF would have us believe.

vote: OpposedForce

btw, We should start consolidating votes. There are currently votes for both HP and cerebus, as well as Knight and Crazy.

this post is full of goodness.

[Adel]

I think it is a good habit, and it shows how armix is filtering the informations as he reads.

I can't give it any credence--you'd be better off scum-hunting in the nine lynchers than the rest.

please expand and elaborate upon this idea.

[Adel]

I think you may be on to something there HP.

[Adel]

nine people need to vote. 38 pages is more than enough information to base a decision off of.

[Adel]

@armlx - great. you've gone from irrelevant content to no content. nice.

Agreed. Is it policy lynch time yet?

Vote: Armlx

BM

*PS: Hope he doesn't turn out to be my Lover. rofl!

speaking of policy lynches, if you don't stop spamming up this game and corrupting the signal:noise ratio I will get you lynched. I burned off some of my townie cred so that newbie-townies would stop following my opinions and start thinking critically about the game, but I know that I have enough cred left to get you lynched.

You have a mature playstyle: use it.

[Adel]

Adel, would you mind if I referenced that post in future games when this scenario pops up again?

Sure. Sometimes BM needs a leash.

[Adel]

unvote, vote:cerebus3

I like having three wagons at three votes.

[Adel]

Voting, Lynching and Deaths

4. Any voting action must be bolded -

Vote: destructor

, etc.
5. You must

Unvote

before placing another vote.

Any votes placed without unvoting first will not be counted

.
6. A lynch occurs when a player has an absolute majority of votes on them.
7. At deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched. In the event of a draw, the player who reached the most votes first will be lynched.
8. Once a lynch occurs the lynched player may not post in the thread. Other players are free to continue posting but votes can not be cast until the mod announces the next day.
9. A modkill will end the Day.
10. Once a player is dead, they cannot contribute anymore to the game. They are not to post

anything

. Not even a "Bah!" or "Go town!" post. Seriously.

Are people forgeting the deadline rules? OF was the fist player to have the most votes, so at deadline, unless additional votes are made, he will still be the lynch. Anyone else that unvotes from his wagon will in fact be preventing his lynch. Anyone who votes for either of the other two wagons will be causing that person to be lynched instead.

I like having three wagons at three votes.

I don't get it.

Anyone who places a vote on any of those three wagons from now to deadline is going to have to have a good explanation for it. I created a scenario where any last minute votes will have consequences. I am making last minute votes more accountable.

[Adel]

Anyone who places a vote on any of those three wagons from now to deadline is going to have to have a good explanation for it. I created a scenario where any last minute votes will have consequences. I am making last minute votes more accountable.

Or they just let the OF wagon chill.

right, which is a choice as well.

~~~

@SleepyPanda: I have to explain at least some of what I do. There is plenty that I do not explain. Since so at least a couple of the players who seem to be paying attention to this game didn't understand the deadline rules I decided it was necessary to explain

that any future votes during this game will probably decide who gets lynched

.

~~~

Can we play "lynch the scummiest lurker" tomorrow?

[Adel]

EBWOP: that any future votes during this

game

day

will probably decide who gets lynched.

[Adel]

I understand the deadline rules completely and know that this will mean that kloud is lynched.

He is on four votes.

I voted him on the last page.

which I had totally missed because the votecount on this page was (is) wrong.

Fixed. - Mod

[Adel]

unvote, vote cerebus

If we aren't going to lynch SSF/BM, might as well be another scum. I agree with RR and sekjini's cases.

unvote, vote:kloud1516

which should still leave cerebus3 as the person to be lynched.


OpposedForce (3) - Crazy, Knight of Cydonia, neko2086
kloud1516 (4) - ThAdmiral, Erratus Apathos, Darox, Adel
*cerebus3 (4) - SleepyPanda, Raging Rabbit, sekinj, charter

[Adel]

And I did skim, but you're right. I asume sekinj mis-numbered, unless it was deliberate fabrication... explain, sekinj, or I'm looking really hard at you. I think Cerebus is a wolf, and

I wouldn't put it past sekinj and adel to be mafia now going by this incredible bit of bullcrap

, which instantly makes me think - LAL.

that is an interesting flip-flop on what you suppose my alignment probably is.

What links me to sekinj? Which "incredible bit of bullcrap" makes you think I am mafia?

[Adel]

unvote, vote:Cephrir

for being mafia.

[Adel]

I'm not especially interested in the case against either of them. I think you are carter are the correct lynch for today. With ~24 hours to go I think there is enough time left to lynch you.

I think a simple read of your posts in isolation, followed by a read of your lover's posts in isolation should be enough to convice enough of the others to join the wagon on you.

[Adel]

this is where I think the votecount is.

kloud1516 (2)

- ThAdmiral, Erratus Apathos,
*

cerebus3 (7)

- SleepyPanda, Raging Rabbit, , sekinj, charter, Knight of Cydonia, neko2086, Crazy

Crazy (1)

- OpposedForce

sekinj(2)

- Adel, Darox

Knight of Cydonia (1)

- pwnz

Alabaska J (1)

-


Not Voting (8) - , DarlaBlueEyes, Cephrir, cerebus3, WaltWishbone, kloud1516, Alabaska J, Battle Mage, Harvey Pew

Twelve

votes to lynch.

[Adel]

Darox since you are online, and I can't tell how seriously you are paying attention, would you mind posting what all of the lover pairing are?

[Adel]

I can't think of anythng other than that

me and charter constantly disagree

, which I am and have been aware of, and I don't see how that would be a tell.

lol, followed by LAL

[Adel]

@sekinj: apparently Darox and I share a disability. I am voting for Cephrir, and that is who I intended to vote for.

@WaltWishbone: since there is no danger of me getting nightkilled, I am manipulating wagons in a way that will better inform my analysis later in the game. I really like the rest of your post. I think I'll chase Cephrir tomorrow.

unvote, vote:kloud1516

[Adel]

no, it should be 8 votes on Kloud, and 8 votes on Cerebus, with Kloud being the deadline choice because he reached 8 first.

[Adel]

where should we go?

[Adel]

I've read a ton of games, and it never ceases to amaze me how often the #2 wagon (which is typically abandoned the next day) turns out to have been on scum.

[Adel]

Also, this rather bugs me:

I'm manipulating the lynches to give me more to go on in later days.

I don't doubt you're manipulating the lynches - it seems incredible, but as soon as Adel's vote went on kloud, the kloud wagon gained support and overtook the cerebus wagon. There is a point where town leaders become dangerous and misleading, especially when I find them as unexplainably

nrrrgh

as Adel.

My erratic play at the end of day 1 should've been enough to get lazy townies from blindly following me.

I with-held most of my opinions during day 2 while trying to manipulate wagons to yield voting from other players that would making later voting analysis more informative.

At the end of day 2 I jumped around a little bit more, just to see how people reacted.

vote:Opposed Force

since he is Darox's lover.

[Adel]

I think we should be able to figure out who the other werewolves are out of those who didn't vote for them in the final lynch;

HarveyPew/Cerebus
Armix/Sleepy Panda
oppossedforce/Darox
adel/Pwnz

adel/pwnz both voted for them originally and adels case pretty much hung iceman in my opinion so I'm not really considering them. With Harvey Pew and Cerebus, again they seemed completely unaware that ice and fire were lovers and seemed ready to lynch fire. I am going to re-read OF/Dar and SP/Arm isolated to see if I see anything unordinary.

More later.

I have Sleepy Panda on my uber-townie list, for what it is worth. Armlx's play hasn't effected that.

I see today's choice as basically being down to:
- Cephrir
- Cerebus
- Darox
- a lurking couple who is scummy relative to other luking couples.

[Adel]

BM voting the confirmed townie is.....

HP supporting it evokes a similar response.

scummy on both counts. I argee.

Oh, and darox still hasn't posted daytalk, in case no one has noticed.

I have. Note who I am voting for.

[Adel]

Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.

Holy crap, you mean I didn't know what you were talking about? Okay, so now I know nothing about your alignment.

Then it appears that I have a scumtell of my own, then, the one that I've been referring to this whole time. That coincidentally also would work better without a mass-claim and is something that scum would have no idea of. I suggest keeping me alive until Day 3/4 at least so I can reveal what it is. K? If I don't have anything then, you can lynch me. Really, what's the harm in this unless you're scum?

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.

I was expecting after 3 or 4 days that everyone would post all their daytalk... I didn't see anything in the rules against that.

Iceman attacked Crazy because "You can't have gotten something extra in your role PM" and "Unless you got a second message telling you about this that I missed"

All the original towns people did get a second message to give them daytalk threads, and it this pretty much outed iceman and confirmed crazy.

But how does that make crazy not mafia?

He apparently lacks the ability to carry out that plan as scum. While his incompetence

may

be a ruse, I do not see any reason to think that it

is

.

[Adel]

Mod, please Prod Pwnz.

BM

Fail.

Are you even reading this game?

[Adel]

sometimes the Crazy can see the truth!

Unvote
Vote ThAdmiral

[Adel]

.::] Vote Count [::.

Harvey Pew (5)

- armlx, neko2086, sekinj, ThAdmiral, DarlaBlueEyes

Crazy (1)

- Battle Mage

OpposedForce (1)

- Crazy

Cephrir (1)

- Darox

charter (1)

- Erratus Apathos

ThAdmiral (4)

- SleepyPanda, Crazy, Adel, Knight of Cydonia

Darox (1)

- charter

Not Voting (6) - Raging Rabbit, OpposedForce, pwnz, Cephrir, cerebus3, WaltWishbone

Eleven

votes to lynch.

I just noticed that Crazy is listed as voting for two people. His actual vote is on ThAdmiral, right?

He was voting for ThAdmiral. Also, Harvey Pew was voting for Crazy. It's fixed now. -Mod.

[Adel]

unvote, vote:Raging Rabbit

sometimes scum-distancing goes too far, and becomes a bus.

[Adel]

I can't believe how fast wagons form and are followed in this game. Really people, do you have any conviction at all about where you put your vote?

TS replaced in a looked at the game with fresh eyes, and saw something I missed. Now we are both voting for RR, with conviction.

(appeal to experience as authority: between us (and out alts) TS and I have made over 10k game posts on this site. With the exception of Battle Mage and armlx, does anyone else have over a thousand?)

[Adel]

People need to stop following Adel's opinion on everything - that much pull in the hands of one player is dangerous.

when was the last time someone followed my opinion? when was the last time I gave a strong opinion?

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this post?

[Adel]

Adel seems to be the principal force behind most of our hammers - Adel joins the wagon, then two or three votes finish it or put it beyond doubt.
By opinion, I mean vote. People seem to think a wagon with the Adel seal of approval must be good.

you are either ignorant of how this game has actually progressed, or you are lying through your teeth. which is it?

[Adel]

People need to stop following Adel's opinion on everything - that much pull in the hands of one player is dangerous.

when was the last time someone followed my opinion? when was the last time I gave a strong opinion?

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this post?

why did you decide not to answer these questions?

[Adel]

TS- check lover thread.

[Adel]

This wagon sucks. Building a wagon on an act of distancing is completely stupid.

it is based on much more than simple distancing.

[Adel]

True, there's also almighty 10k game posts.

and the scumtells we are sitting on.

why aren't you answering the question TS directly asked you in 1348?

you've made two posts in this game since then...

[Adel]

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Whatever we're most sure of.

Suppose we decided to go after werewolves today, just take it as an assumption that it is a good idea, how would we best go about catching you?

[Adel]

I'll follow up on that post later, but in the meantime please tell me what you and your lover have disagreed about so far in this game. I'm not asking you to paraphrase your entire lover's thread, but please tell us what y'all have disagreed about so far in this game. Please be as precise and specific as possible, and please post as soon as possible. The faster you are the more honest and townie you will appear.

[Adel]

Thanks RR! That was great!

Why didn't you mention his plan of pretending to go after werewolves that he presented in the thread?

Can you see why my vote is on you now?

~~~

Has anyone else had that many (or more) disagreements with their lover?

[Adel]

Wait, this is about something RR did? I apparently need to read, because I assumed this wagon was due to Firestarter's vote for RR that nearly got him lynched.

what makes you think isn't a combination of what RR did, what WWB did, what firestarter did, and what icemanE did?






a hint: it is.

[Adel]

People need to stop following Adel's opinion on everything - that much pull in the hands of one player is dangerous.

when was the last time someone followed my opinion? when was the last time I gave a strong opinion?

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this post?

why did you decide not to answer these questions?

when was the last time someone followed my opinion?
when was the last time I gave a strong opinion?
why did you decide not to answer these questions?

[Adel]

I see today's choice as basically being down to:
- Cephrir
- Cerebus
- Darox
- a lurking couple who is scummy relative to other luking couples.

Dear Adel,

Why?

Love, Ceph

I've asked this like 3 times now. Any particular reason you've yet to answer?

until TS replaced in I was focusing on the abstract elements of mafia: trying to encourage even participation, preventing players from blindly following me by vote hopping without explanation, and by casting a wide net in my stated opinions. That post was is example of the latter.

It didn't suit my purposes to answer your question. I wanted scum to follow my opinions when I posted that, but I didn't want townies to. Now I am answering it because I want townies to follow my opinion of RR and the suddenly enraged WWB.

[Adel]

Vote Firestarter

, I think you're slightly more likely to use dice for the first time as scum.

This was your first post in the game. And Firestarter was scum. You're scum too, it's a rookie mistake I know, but I caught it. Bus'ing right out of the garage. That irrepressible instinct that scum has to immediately distance.

I think you're a werewolf.

Wahey!!!

First post in...

Ok...

Original Roll String: 1d23 (STATIC)

1 23-Sided Dice: (20) = 20

vote: Firestarter

for using dice.

If the random voting stage is truely random then it will not yield information. Why don't you want to risk making a pseudo-random vote that could yield information?

This is Adel's first post in the game. And Firestarter was scum. She's scum too, it's a rookie mistake but I caught it! She just couldn't fight the irrepressible instinct!



This case is based on nothing but Adel's lame trap, your repeated use of appeal to experience and a vote count analysis with a pregone conclusion.

hmmm.... which one of us voted first??? and who followed and repeated the first voter's point?

[Adel]

Hey ClockworkRuse, welcome to the game!

Who is your lover?

[Adel]

vote: Battle Mage

for being mafia.

[Adel]

unvote, vote:Darox

for now...

[Adel]

I keep on flip-flopping as to if Crazy is confirmed or not.

I think popcorn posting of daytalk is the best idea.

[Adel]

I'm requesting replacement in all of my games, including this one.
I apologize to all of you for not fulfilling the commitment I made by joining this game.

[Adel]

About the setup, I was wondering if the game was balanced against scum. The town can win in 4 lynches while either scum team would need 8 mislynches

at least

, and then there was also chance of that being a draw if every lynch had been of town. I do like the concept of the setup and if it were to run again (which I think would be cool) maybe it should be 6:6:12 instead, meaning each faction would need at least 6 lynches to win. Another possibility could be to keep the same numbers but give the scumteams a nightkill while crosskills would fail.

The specific intention I had for this game was to design a set-up that would teach new players how to play better, and encourage activity and appearing as pro-town as possible. There were no NKs so that uber-townie looking players would not be killed.

Scum had the chance to coordinate their actions and arguments in their day talking thread. This set-up was designed to reward skilled scum players who were able to work as a team and manipulate the town. If scum had a newbie on their team, using the day-talking thread the more experienced scum players could coach him and teach him how to play better.

I thought the daytalking worked well. In retrospect, I don't think allowing even paraphrasing was a good idea. It detracted from the content in thread and turned the game into something other than Mafia. While the fake day talk sek/neko and armlx/Panda produced sounded pretty convincing, it was an unnecessary burden that didn't really enrich the setup and made a difficult game to win even harder.

How did the mafia get caught by timestamps? Why didn't they lie?

Sorry I replaced out of this game. I had been in 4 or 5 games at a time for a year and a half without a break.

[Adel]

If Sekinj/Neko and SP/armlx had been on the same team, would they probably have won?

[Adel]

@adel - not with the timestamp thing. either them or us Probably could have won this way without the timestamp thing too. The town was goign to lynch anyone who didn't have the 10:07 timestamp.

I wasn't following the game that closely. I didn't realize that all of the town had the same time stamp. I though the timestamps were in order or something.

[Adel]

This is still one of my favorite mafia games that I have ever been in. I mean, having 11 people vote for me Day 1, and then in some strange turn, getting my primary attacker lynched instead... and then going on to become nearly confirmed town... just wow.

I'll take the credit for that

[Adel]

I agree that 4:4:14 or 4:4:12 may be more balanced. I think I overestimated how useful daytaking will usually be for scum.

I think 4:4:10 would be unbalanced in the other direction. By balanced, I mean that the town should win between 40% and 50% of the time.

[Adel]

I started a thread in mafia discussions about the utility of daytalking and scum communication & team work: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9656

[Adel]

Do you think it would help if the scum players were not lovers with each other? That way scum could claim lovers in which ever way was most advantageous.

[Adel]

I meant that none of the scum are lovers at all, but you got the intention.

[Adel]

When you said you wanted this game to encourage and teach new players to play well, how did you see the lovers mechanic contributing to that? Was it being able to bounce ideas of someone else?

right-- there is one player they can trust and talk about the game with outside of the game thread.

Did anyone really feel like they benefited from day talking?