Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[SleepyPanda]

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

If you're town and you feel this way, why not point out other options?

"I think he's scum" doesn't

mean

anything. It should be obvious. It's not really a reason because it should apply to everyone you want to lynch. But by having it as an entirely separate reason, you've drawn attention to that obvious fact, something which I think is the behavior of scum attacking a scum non-buddy.

This is REALLY desperate and contrived.

unvote, vote: somestrangeflea

Are you saying this is where we should be focused on? A vote you placed because of one post? After you voted him, you have directed no additional questions towards flea. This is better than the cases people have built on Fire or iceman?

[charter]

I have no problem lynching flea either, but I don't think it's possible before deadline.

The problem with the firestarter and iceman slipups is they are extremely obviously scummy. Flea's is much more subtle.

[somestrangeflea]

I have no problem lynching flea either, but I don't think it's possible before deadline.

Flea's [slip] is much more subtle.

I would find it much easier to think you actually believed this if you had mentioned me at any point prior to this post.

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP:
Whoops, there was this:

I'd also like to hear some from DBE, particularily your read of SSF.

Damning stuff...

[charter]

Do you have any questions for me or anything? Or do you just want to pop in whenever someone mentions your name? Or what?

[Crazy]

Cool, we get to lynch

both

of them? I love this game!

[dybeck]

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

If you're town and you feel this way, why not point out other options?

"I think he's scum" doesn't

mean

anything. It should be obvious. It's not really a reason because it should apply to everyone you want to lynch. But by having it as an entirely separate reason, you've drawn attention to that obvious fact, something which I think is the behavior of scum attacking a scum non-buddy.

This is REALLY desperate and contrived.

unvote, vote: somestrangeflea

Are you saying this is where we should be focused on? A vote you placed because of one post? After you voted him, you have directed no additional questions towards flea. This is better than the cases people have built on Fire or iceman?

I'm just saying that a good Day 1 is a day where feelers are put out in multiple directions, where pressure is applied to several players, where alliances are shown up and where the town keeps an open mind.

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

I strongly suspect that the answer from most people, if Fire/Ice are scum, will now be 'Let's attack Dybeck tomorrow' but meh. There's a vast majority of people in this town from whom you have no kind of reading. And that's because too much attention is being pointed in a single direction.

I've made this speech too many times before, and usually end up getting lynched for it but, hey, maybe that's my lot in life.

And yes, you're right, I've been lazy this game too. The time for this speech was probably not so late in the day when, of course, it just smacks of trying to derail a scum bandwagon.

[Alabaska J]

dybeck is right and I know who I am going to look at tomorrow.

Anyone else know? It's ok if you say dybeck, although that is the easy way out IMO.

[Crazy]

Trying to take votes off yourself by putting them on others that are being more helpful to the town than yourself is scum tactics.

This sounds like you're finally giving in to the bandwagon and posting some miniscule reason so it doesn't look like it. I mean, you don't hate the BIG WHOPPING CASE on him, but one minor act of deflection is worth your vote?

[SleepyPanda]

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

Oh, but I do. If Fire/ice (fire and ice, hurhur) do flip scum, I've already noted a couple people down as I done my reread.

I strongly suspect that the answer from most people, if Fire/Ice are scum, will now be 'Let's attack Dybeck tomorrow' but meh. There's a vast majority of people in this town from whom you have no kind of reading. And that's because too much attention is being pointed in a single direction.

I've made this speech too many times before, and usually end up getting lynched for it but, hey, maybe that's my lot in life.

And yes, you're right, I've been lazy this game too. The time for this speech was probably not so late in the day when, of course, it just smacks of trying to derail a scum bandwagon.

In most of this post, it looks like you're already making assumptions that Fire/ice IS a scum wagon. The jist I got from your previous post implied that you felt the town was looking in the wrong direction. You're right though, about not having enough information on some people. I still don't know where you stand as you haven't given your opinion on either wagons.

[Crazy]

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

Now I've heard this "no information" argument a bunch of times and I just don't get it. What exactly will we lose by lynching them? If they are scum, at this point, even their partners would wagon on them. Why would we be unable to scum-hunt just as well tomorrow as we do today?

[dybeck]

For the record, then, I may as well go on record as pointing out that both your bandwagons are baseless and I suspect the wheels will fall off as soon as somebody does something genuinely scummy.

Panda: I think I stated my standpoint on the wagons pretty clearly.

Crazy: for what it's worth, I actually also think that the minor act of deflection is more damning than the "BIG WHOPPING CASE OMG OMG".

But not enough that I'd vote them IMO.

[charter]

Trying to take votes off yourself by putting them on others that are being more helpful to the town than yourself is scum tactics.

This sounds like you're finally giving in to the bandwagon and posting some miniscule reason so it doesn't look like it. I mean, you don't hate the BIG WHOPPING CASE on him, but one minor act of deflection is worth your vote?

The "big whopping case" on him is BS, and I don't put any stock in your cases against people. Firestarters deflection is very scummy.

Yes, I'm jumping on his wagon. I don't understand why you still insist on hounding me. It's getting quite old. I stated before that I would vote firestarter if your wagon lost steam to get a lynch in before deadline.

Why don't you hound the lurkers that you were so worried about at the beginning? Wasn't that your whole reason for initially supporting massclaim, until you flip flopped on that? Now you don't even care about them? Flip flopping again?

[charter]

Dybeck beat me to it.

Flip flop! (that was my nickname at work after I sprained my ankle and couldn't fit in shoes for a week because it was so swollen)

[SleepyPanda]

For the record, then, I may as well go on record as pointing out that both your bandwagons are baseless and I suspect the wheels will fall off as soon as somebody does something genuinely scummy.

Panda: I think I stated my standpoint on the wagons pretty clearly.

Hum, I'm sorry that I missed that one line. Again, if you feel that way, why not provide counter-arguements if that is how you feel? Why have you not been more vocal about looking at other avenues? I know that you've requested replacement, but you still seem quite active, giving your opinion of how poorly we're doing instead of actual scum-hunting.

[dybeck]

Again, if you feel that way, why not provide counter-arguements if that is how you feel? Why have you not been more vocal about looking at other avenues? I know that you've requested replacement, but you still seem quite active, giving your opinion of how poorly we're doing instead of actual scum-hunting.

I don't have a scum name for you, unfortunately. The town's play is giving scum the opportunity to sit back and ride this wagon to the end of the day. As a consequence, they're not having to make the play and do anything scummy. We should be applying pressure in multiple directions, starting with the lurkers.

Of these, DarlaBlueEyes, cerebus3 and pacman281292 seem like the best places to start.

My point is not "I know who's scum" or even "Fire/Ice are not scum".

Just "We can't possibly know who's scum on the evidence presented so far."

I suspect that it's too late for today unless we can get a deadline extension. A Fire/Ice lynch is better than a no-lynch.

[orangepenguin]

Almost finished reading..don't like the case on me by Adel. It's really weak and it's sad that a large number of people agree with a badly supporting case against me.

Iceman is my lover. Penguins do need their Ice. Penguin/Ice (haahahaha..Fire/Ice:shock:).

Will comment when I finish.

[Crazy]

Sorry, charter, was mistaken. I thought you were accusing Iceman of deflecting, not Firestarter, and I missed that you were suspicious of Firestarter before.

I'm a bit surprised you're being defensive though, with all your "OMG Why are you guys hounding me?" That's not like you were in that other game.

[Crazy]

And Charter, lurkers are a problem, but not one that we can easily deal with without a mass-claim.

OP/Iceman, would you mind paraphrasing your daytalk?

[Alabaska J]

Why are so many people still voting Crazy?

[wolframnhart]

Unvote

I regret my initial vote on Crazy. Think my mind was numb and the fact my lover won't talk to me has hurt my feelings, and i lashed out!

As it is, I am still unsure about Ice/OP. I do get that it seems extra scummy to ask your partner to get votes off of you and get them on someone else, but then again, ice shouldn't have had to ask, his partner should have been trying to defend him anyways so they could both continue on in the game and scum hunt. I think icemans only problem is he got stuck with a crappy partner who attacked the first person he could see.

[Adel]

I have not been lazy in this game, and I have the feeling that a bunch of players are following me. Since I do not have a good read on over half of the players here, I will take a back seat in this game for now, and allow other people to have their voice heard.

@RR- the post following the one where you asked your question answered your question.

[wolframnhart]

I have not been lazy in this game, and I have the feeling that a bunch of players are following me. Since I do not have a good read on over half of the players here, I will take a back seat in this game for now, and allow other people to have their voice heard.

@RR- the post following the one where you asked your question answered your question.

Probably a good idea. If one person is showing the most logic and others just go along, it can be bad (I know I have been accused of following many times). Plus if you sit back and watch you can see if some of the scum start flopping in the wind with out someone to latch onto.

[ThAdmiral]

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

This post has all the hallmarks of scum knowing a townie will be lynched so he can say "told you so" tomorrow.

Almost makes me want to get off the wagon.

[OpposedForce]

Unvote:Crazy

I still have my suspicions on him but for now I'll unvote.

I've re-read the thread and came upon this.

this is where Crazy revealed his tell

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

but it gets better,

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.

Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.

There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?

There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.

How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,

unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell"

. The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?

the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is

You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,

despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell

(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.

icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.

let us review:

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

this post is the real scum-trap.

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

I agree with this post entirely. At the beggining of the game IcemanE had used a hypocritical vote on RagingRabbit because in his perspective RR had posted a post thinking as scum while he himself had posted a similar post before with the same premise of thinking as scum. Then he makes the post of "unless Crazy had received a extra message then his whole case would be faulty" however as Adel stated all townies received a DT forum to talk with their lovers so Iceman's case on Crazy would be out the window.

Another interesting connection to make is Firestarter putting a misinterprented vote onto RagingRabbit and accusing him of defending Crazy&Farside when he had evidence of Crazy being scum but however the posts that RR was making were justified. This is an interesting connection because RR had susipisions on IcemanE so I think it's safe to assume that Firestarter had tried to put some spotlight on RR with faulty points to get IcemanE out of the spotlight.

I would vote IcemanE but he's -2 from a lynch and I want to hear what other people have to say.