Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[sekinj]

The main people that people are suspicious of: Firestarter, iceman, and crazy/farside.

If I were mod, I would DEFINITELY make fire and ice a lover pair!! But, since I'm not, I doubt that is the case (but it would be really cool!!).

Fire: making a vote without a case, not being able to defend that vote and still keeping it where it is

Ice: for believing in the crazy wagon and for not knowing that townies got a daytalk forum.

Crazy: (the wagon I'm on) for argueably making up scum tells, and then freaking out by voting self and using emotional appeals.

farside: no votes on her directly, but claimed lover of Crazy.

a comment on a less popular wagon:
Charter: I've seen it said that his meta is playing scummy, and I can certainly see that. What I don't like is his surety. He is POSITIVE when he finds scum. I just don't understand at least a kernal of self-doubt or admittance of possibly being wrong. This makes charter very easily blinded. I'm glad he posted that he was goign to look over things again.

[sekinj]

Crazy: My vote is currently on Crazy because of his scummy actions, not because of the believeability of his scumtell or his ernestness.
Scummy actions:
1. Doing a 180 in regards to the mass claim based on one post by one player
2. Auto-assuming Adel's townieness
3. Calling others scum for trying to fake knowing the tell, when he wasn' t even reading carefully enough to knwo that he wasn't thinking of the right tell
4. appeals to emotion (please gag me)
5. Voting self (unforgiveable)

However, I do understand the point that it would be dangerous for scum to make up a tell like that and try to push it. Also, if he was making it up and was scum, it seems like the other scum-lover pair on his team would be trying to stick up for him. So I will unvote, although it is very hard for me to turn a blind eye to all of those SCUMMY SCUM SCUMBUCKET actions.

Fire: Moving up my scum list fast because of HIS scummy actions... So far has not been able to defend his vote, and yet has not moved it. Although Crazy has at this point done more scummy things, I think Crazy is either very stupid scum, or a townie. So, my vote goes to the next best/worst scummy player.

Unvote
FoS: Crazy
Vote: Fire

[ThAdmiral]

Is iceman supposed to have slipped up, cause I don't see it.

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

*

Crazy (7)

- icemanE, OpposedForce, charter, SleepyPanda, somestrangeflea, ThAdmiral, DarlaBlueEyes

charter (1)

- farside22

Raging Rabbit (1)

- Firestarter

Firestarter (7)

- Adel, neko2086, cerebus3, Raging Rabbit, Harvey Pew, Crazy, sekinj

somestrangeflea (1)

- dybeck

IcemanE (3)

- Cephrir, Erratus Apathos, Alabaska J

Not Voting (4) - pacman281292, wolframnhart, WaltWishbone, pwnz

Thirteen

votes to lynch.

wolframnhart

replaces

Raffles

.

... and Firestarter has requested replacement.

[icemanE]

you got a pm giving your scumteam a place to talk, but you didn't know that townies also got a pm giving them a daytalk PM! It is freaking obvious!

Huh? I got a PM giving me a link to the QT to daytalk with my lover - and then I read the PM's on the first page given to mafia and werewolf, where it says their entire team gets a forum. What's obvious? Where did I say I got a PM that said otherwise? When did I say I didn't get a townie daytalk PM? What the hell are you talking about and why is anyone agreeing with you?

Is iceman supposed to have slipped up, cause I don't see it.

QFT, WTF are you talking about Adel? You've made a case out of something that doesn't even exist...

[icemanE]

Idiot.

???

You were apparently offended by my answering your questions... why?

[wolframnhart]

Hey yall. it's late for me to do a read through atm, and I work in the morning, so once i get home ill do a read through and have my thoughts up as quickly as possible.

[Adel]

WTF are you talking about Adel? You've made a case out of something that doesn't even exist...

I wonder if Cephrir, Erratus Apathos or Alabaska J will be able to explain it to you...

[sekinj]

Hey wolf. Good to see you

[wolframnhart]

Hey sek, good ta see you too.

[icemanE]

I wonder if Cephrir, Erratus Apathos or Alabaska J will be able to explain it to you...

As do i, and I wonder if they can. Are you attempting to say here that if a certain number of people join a wagon, it's a justified wagon? That no matter how baseless or unfounded a wagon is, as long as a certain number of people are on it, it's cool? that seems to be what you're implying. Additionally:

A. Alabaska voted for me based on info from pages 1-6 and hasn't yet finished his full read of the game.
B. Both EA and Ceph clearly just read the line you typed and didn't do any research into what was actually said - you completely made up an argument/summary of something I never said, and they just agreed with what you put forth.

[Adel]

I wonder if Cephrir, Erratus Apathos or Alabaska J will be able to explain it to you...

As do i, and I wonder if they can. Are you attempting to say here that if a certain number of people join a wagon, it's a justified wagon? That no matter how baseless or unfounded a wagon is, as long as a certain number of people are on it, it's cool? that seems to be what you're implying.

{snip}

you completely made up an argument/summary of something I never said

lol!

[Adel]

"IcemanE has a habit of drawing suspicion from everyone around him, even when he is a townie. "

sig line abuse.

[icemanE]

@Adel -

Are you actually going to explain yourself, or are you going to continue to sit above what you've done and pretend it's actually grounded?

[cerebus3]

I have this warm in fuzzy feeling inside being in someone's sig.

[icemanE]

I have this warm in fuzzy feeling inside being in someone's sig. Very Happy

Ah, I meant to ask you if you wanted credit for it.

sig line abuse.

I'm assuming this is a joke. And it's a very weak way of prolonging your unfounded case.

[Adel]

unvote, vote:icemanE

[icemanE]

unvote, vote:icemanE

Ah, ok. Now I see what you're saying, thanks for the clarification.

Does anyone else see any of this as even remotely protown? I sure hope not.

[Adel]

Ice: for believing in the crazy wagon and for not knowing that townies got a daytalk forum.

I wonder if sekinj (in addition to Cephrir, Erratus Apathos and Alabaska J)

can explain why people think that icemanE revealed that he didn't know that townies got a daytalking PM after they got their role pm.

[icemanE]

If you could quote where I said I didn't know townies got a day-talk forum, I'll love you forever.

I asked Crazy if he got some sort of SPECIAL INFORMATION after his role PM, not the link to his daytalk forum. The link to the daytalk forum isn't SPECIAL INFORMATION because EVERYONE GOT IT. I pointed out after looking over the role PMs that the scum and werewolf PM's say "team" instead of "lover." You're either misreading or, as I've said, just making things up.

[icemanE]

Ah, but reading over them again, it seems the scum each get a forum where they're allowed to talk to their entire team at once instead of just their lover.

Notice the "instead of just their lover", if you will, which makes it obvious that you're full of it.

[sekinj]

Ice: for believing in the crazy wagon and for not knowing that townies got a daytalk forum.

I wonder if sekinj (in addition to Cephrir, Erratus Apathos and Alabaska J)

can explain why people think that icemanE revealed that he didn't know that townies got a daytalking PM after they got their role pm.

i was summerizing what seemed to be people's case against him. I guess that wasn't as clear as I meant it to be. I think ice is slightly suspicious, but I don't thing he made a big mistake or scumtell or anything. It just seemed like he didn't understand who got what daytalk...

[Adel]

this is where Crazy revealed his tell

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

but it gets better,

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.

Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.

There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?

There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.

How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,

unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell"

. The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?

the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is

You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,

despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell

(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.

icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.

let us review:

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

this post is the real scum-trap.

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

[Adel]

does everyone recall this post?

Links?

The best example I can think of to relate to what I think has happened here is this one, from Mini 615. AwesomePants was the Demon King in the game and he made this little slipup, which no one, including myself, caught before it was too late:

Awesome's post 181 is essentially a full analysis of the game from the Demon King's perspective. Here's a piece of it:

Hmm.. I think the DK knowing who the hunter is at this stage of the game could be bad town. If the DK knows then he can keep him alive through the game and never recruit him. On the other hand, the town would have at least one cleared innocent that, for as long as he/she was alive, would be protown. I think that'd be good in a way.

If the hunter didn't claim, then the DK wouldn't know and could possibly kill him during the night rather than recruiting someone. At this stage of the game, that'd mean that we'd either come into d3 at 2/3 (if we mislynched) or 3/2 (if we correctly lynched). Alternatively, if the hunter didn't get killed we'd come into d3 at 2/4 (if we mislynched) or 3/3 (if we lynch correctly).

That 2/4 is a bit worrying, but I suppose so is the 2/3.

I guess at least with the DK claiming before he's about to get lynched we have another shot at hitting scum.

The bolding is mine, and is the essential mistake he made that was breezed over. It looks like a simple mixup - he meant to say "I guess at least with the HUNTER claiming before he's about to get lynched", but screwed up and said DK instead. But it's little mistakes like those I've learned are most telling.

The other example is in an ongoing game so I can't justifiably link to it or discuss it.

[Adel]

If you could quote where I said I didn't know townies got a day-talk forum, I'll love you forever.

I asked Crazy if he got some sort of SPECIAL INFORMATION after his role PM, not the link to his daytalk forum. The link to the daytalk forum isn't SPECIAL INFORMATION because EVERYONE GOT IT. I pointed out after looking over the role PMs that the scum and werewolf PM's say "team" instead of "lover." You're either misreading or, as I've said, just making things up.

In 164 you claimed that the towies role PM being posted on the first page was the reason why the town couldn't have secret information. In fact, we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

your repeated emphasis on "special message" is what is damning you.