Mature Mafia: Game Over

[Adel]

vote:DGB

for editing other people's posts.

[Adel]

And whoever murdered zu_Faul and/or desecrated his death post, that behaviour is not in keeping with the theme of the game. Please desist from such actions.

unvote, vote: Talitha

[Adel]

vote:DGB

for editing other people's posts.

was this a joke post by you, or do you really think dgb was editing peoples posts?

I think she is more likely than average to have done it.

EDIT: this is a test edit to see what happens if I edit my post before another person posts.

SECOND EDIT: apparently nothing.

[Adel]

this is a post that I will edit once another persojn posts to see if the forum software will note that I edited the post.

Edit: this is a test to see what happens.

[Adel]

ok, I edited my post 43 and it noted that I edited it. That should mean that zu_faul did not edit his own post.

@Adel: I'm curious. Are you under the impression that because players have been given editing powers in this game, that it's okay to edit your posts at will? That strikes me as a very, very bad thing.

I am editing my posts in a very transparent and mature manner. I'll let you know if I get a warning from the moderator to stop it, and all of you will know if I get modkilled for doing it.


By mature mafia, does that mean that we are effectivly playing a mod-less game where we have to come together like adults and agree upon what rules we will follow? Can we realisiticly expect the scum to agree in good faith?

Or is there a hidden set of rules, and one player (presumably scum) is allowed to edit posts? That would be an important thing to know.

Coron sauid something about posting a votecount later, which led me to suspect that we are alone here without a moderator. If this is the case then the basic parameters of this game are the functions of the forum software and whatever we agree to.

[Adel]

vote: explicit set of rules in the first post

[Adel]

Rules:
You all know how this works.

perhaps we can write the rules ourselves?

We all have moderated games beofre, we do know how this works.

[Adel]

I'm waiting for a Pm back from our mod.

I sent a PM saying:

I'm sure you are getting many PMs from other players.

My I edit the first post of the game to include

No player (living or dead) is allowed to edit any post without the consensus of more than 50% of living players or the explicit permission of EmpTyger.

[Adel]

I got a response. It wasn't clear.

Does anyone mind if I quote it?

[Adel]

Proposed rule #1

Rules posted within the first post (post#0) are official and binding to all players. These rules shall be self-enforced since we are all mature enough to handle the responsibility.

Proposed rule #2

No player (living or dead) is allowed to edit any post (including post#0) without the consensus of more than 50% of living players or the explicit permission of EmpTyger.

[Adel]

Code: Select all

Vote Tally
----------
rajrhcpfreak (1): elvis_knits
logicticus (1): DrippingGoofball
coron (1): Axelrod
elvis (1): rajrhcpfreak
explicit (1): Adel
count (1): Coron
mathcam (4): Macros, Phoebus, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear

FoS Tally
---------

Log Summary
-----------
elvis_knits casts first vote for rajrhcpfreak.
Coron casts first vote for dgb.
Coron unvotes for dgb leaving 0 vote(s).
Coron casts first vote for count.
Axelrod casts first vote for coron.
rajrhcpfreak casts first vote for elvis.
Glork casts first vote for phoebus.
Macros casts first vote for mathcam.
Phoebus casts vote 2 for mathcam.
DrippingGoofball casts first vote for logicticus.
Adel casts vote 1 for dgb.
Glork unvotes for phoebus leaving 0 vote(s).
Glork casts first vote for axelrod.
Talitha casts vote 3 for mathcam.
PookyTheMagicalBear casts vote 4 for mathcam.
Adel unvotes for dgb leaving 0 vote(s).
Adel casts first vote for talitha.
Adel unvotes for talitha leaving 0 vote(s).
Adel casts first vote for explicit.
Glork unvotes for axelrod leaving 0 vote(s).

Player Summary for Adel
-----------------------
25.0% of total activity (5/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for dgb
(0) Cast vote 1 for talitha
(0) Cast vote 1 for explicit

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for dgb leaving 0
(0) Removed vote for talitha leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Adel has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for rajrhcpfreak
-------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for elvis

Unvotes
-------
rajrhcpfreak has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
rajrhcpfreak has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for PookyTheMagicalBear
--------------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 4 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
PookyTheMagicalBear has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
PookyTheMagicalBear has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Coron
------------------------
15.0% of total activity (3/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for dgb
(0) Cast vote 1 for count

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for dgb leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Coron has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for elvis_knits
------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for rajrhcpfreak

Unvotes
-------
elvis_knits has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
elvis_knits has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for DrippingGoofball
-----------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for logicticus

Unvotes
-------
DrippingGoofball has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
DrippingGoofball has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Macros
-------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Macros has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Macros has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Talitha
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 3 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Talitha has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Talitha has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Glork
------------------------
20.0% of total activity (4/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for phoebus
(0) Cast vote 1 for axelrod

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for phoebus leaving 0
(0) Removed vote for axelrod leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Glork has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Axelrod
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for coron

Unvotes
-------
Axelrod has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Axelrod has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Phoebus
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 2 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Phoebus has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Phoebus has not pointed any fingers

thanks to weilawei and the script he posted at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8316

[Adel]

EBWOP: Some mods require that one unvotes before re-voting. Others do not. I'm curious to see what the next VC looks like, so that there will be no confusion going forward. (Incidentally, I am also curious to see how Adel's script reads a re-vote without an unvote.)

I'm not the author of the script. The guys who are writing it have their thread here
and could use some feedback.


I see two paths, either of which could work. The first would be to formulate rules and codify the parameters of this game, the other would be to

all this propositioning for rules and the like is pointless, if someones of a mind to cheat they're going to do it, all these "50%" agreement rules simply arent feasable. AS I was informed by our mod, we're all big people now, figure it out. We all know the rules of mafia by now, abide by them as much as common sense allows you too.
Its called mature mafia, lets act mature and tell the truth when dead. If you want to cheat go ahead you shall be ridiculed and headhunted post game.

if

we are all mature enough to go along with marcos's plan, then it would work. The possible downside is the possibility of huge drama if one player does soemthing, thinking that it is within the bounds of mature action common sense, which other people disagree with. [/mech]

[Adel]

whats wrong with you people, since when did this become a numbers game? I need 5 reasons, 1.5 over under? WHAT? just play the fucking game dont start throwing this crap out, we've enough to contend with without this bullshit.
I think the Cam wagon is a load of turd, I want to vote pooky but theres no point, he coudl be as eassily good as bad, i suppose it works for him.
I'm going to

vote dgb

for blatant wagoning and no more.

This is a great post.

unvote, vote:Marcos

[Adel]

Although I don't really like some of Glork's behavior, I don't really think he's scum. Mostly because of this post:

DISCLAIMER: The upcoming post does not necessarily reflect what my own role may or may not be/include. I am merely using it as the simplest example I can think of off the top of my head, so as to make a point to Axel.

Consider the case of a mountainous game (aside from "mod powers" such as VCing). At night, the Mafia could simply PM their target saying something along the lines of "We are killing you. Please open the thread and reveal your role to the other players" -- perhaps even from an alt/anonymous account. The deceased player (n this case, Zu_Faul) complies, and the rest of us move on with our lives.

In the absence of a "killer" alt for PMing purposes, a situation such as the above example would create an interesting scenario in which the scums would have to rely on victims' honesty to not reveal their identities while the town relies on the scums to reveal themselves truthfully and to adhere to conventional game rules.

This mechanism of mafia submitting kills seems very likely. It immediately made sense to me, and I can't actually think of a better way for it to go down. And I guess this is WIFOM, but I can't see any real mafioso posting this. I know a mafioso could do it for that exact reason, etc. BUT. I think it's pretty unlikely. If it were me, I would avoid commenting on mafia killing mechanisms at all. The potential for getting myself in trouble is just too great.

Thoughts?

ah, this makes sense to me now. If the scum are cheating (editing posts, or whatever) then they effectivly lose their NK.

[Adel]

but someone has already broken that honor multiple times as the first two posts have been edited multiple times

whose alt is Shadow Lurker? rajrhcpfreak?

[Adel]

I still have a nagging suspicion that something weird is going on.

unvote, vote:ShadowLurker

[Adel]

ok, I'm going to take a stand here. The mathcam wagon is a bullshit semi-random (probably fueled by scum) nonsense.

He shouldn't claim since he shouldn't be at lynch -1!

Someone please unvote him, soonest!

Otherwise, I guess he will have to claim, but it shouldn't come to that.

DGB will the "mafia firingsquad" thread as meta-cover is behind this, and I feel she is a much stronger lynch candidate than mathcam is. If nothing else, her association with this wagon should give the rest of you pause. At least unvote now and think about it.

[Adel]

So your vote for "explicit" and Coron's vote for "count" count?

Vote: ditch the lame script
unvote: ditch
vote: mathcam

unvote mathcam first, please.

[Adel]

thank you

[Adel]

unvote, vote:DGB

[Adel]

ok so all players in this game were granted moderator rights and so have the ability to edit their own posts.

@Shadowlurker: please edit your above post (#230) to prove that you are legally allowed to post in this game thread. Otherwise you risk not only being considered a rude interloper, you risk the wrath of everyone playing in this game.

[Adel]

I suddenly suspect that Emptiger edited zu's post, and that Sl is posting here with her permission.

I think we would be best off if we ignore both.

Wiki software would be the easiest way to detect changes in the game.

Go to http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... rel=-10000 to view all posts, select all text, then copy paste onto a wiki page. Once in awhile edit that wiki page, and then the history page for that wiki page will show any changes.

fyi.

[Adel]

I would love for a couple of people to switch their votes to DGB to give her a taste of her own medicine.

DGB you are at -4 to lynch! Why haven't you claimed yet!

oh, wait, was I supposed to say she is at lynch -1?

ok then:

DGB you are at -1 to lynch! Why haven't you claimed yet!

[Adel]

She misrepresented the number of votes on mathcam to fortify her case for getting a claim.

That is called rolefishing, and just because it is so obviously anti-town doesn't mean she won't do it as scum, I fully expect her to do it as scum just so she can feel extra special and smug about it.

[Adel]

this is post 281, just sayin'.

I understand where Adel is coming from regarding DGB's misrepresntation of votecounts, but I don't see that as being out-of-the-ordinary for DGB.

I refuse to acknowledge "typical for DGB" as an excuse for anti-town behavior. I've been in a bunch of games with DGB in the last few months and while she has abused her meta to the point where people consider her anti-town actions to be a null-tell, I note her day 1 activity level and enthusiasm for a quick claim and I'm feeling more and more confident that she is scum.

[Adel]

well, according to axlerod's analysis at 253 the closest he came was lynch -2.

[Adel]

and that was only for a short time.

[Adel]

Glork I really wish you would've kept that to yourself.

This last page really breaks the spirit of the game. Quoting a role PM, and any derivative of quoting a role PM is both clever and wrong.

Of course, I'm about ready to lynch mathcam now...

[Adel]

Being mature includes knowing when to turn the other cheek, or at least knowing when not to jump to conclusions.

I now believe that Emptytiger was probably the person who changed Zu's post, for obvious reasons.

You are advocating cheating because of the possibility that the scum are cheating. I suspect that Marcos' missing post could very well be similar to Shadowlurker's presence: simply a test of our maturity.

As far as editing of posts in the future goes, check out the wiki article for mature mafia. And future changes in the historical record of this game will be documented thanks to the wiki software so long as one of us remembers to update the wikipage every so often, so that is now a moot point.

if anyone goes along with your approach elvis, I shall resign from this game in protest. I don't want to play in a game with cheaters, even if we share an alignment. Stop it.

[Adel]

and by "resign from this game" I mean I will modkill myself.

[Adel]

Well, I wouldn't want to play in a game where the mod is "testing our maturity" by screwing around and making it look like some of us are not playing by the rules.

then you may want to consider asking to be replaced by someone who is mature enough to handle it.

[Adel]

the smug tone of our "mod" in the sign-up thread should have been a warning.

[Adel]

I enjoy grappling with out-of-context problems.

It makes me stretch my mind.

[Adel]

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

So now that I've raised the possibility that it is in fact our mod who is responsible, do you still want to cheat?

Understand that each character in the critical word(s) encode quite a bit of information. It is trivial to verify to alignment of every player in this game if we were to choose to take that route, assuming that no scum players saw&remember zu's original post, and assuming that only version of the non-scum alignment was used... and assuming that the scum didn't get a sample a non-scum role pm.

Why stop at only outing mathcam as scum? Why not solve this entire game right here and right now?

You've plainly stated that you recognize that it is cheating. I'm just disappointed that you are trying to rationalize doing what you know to be wrong. You may be town in this game, but I am beginning to suspect that you are scum in real life.

[Adel]

You are openly advocating cheating. I have no tolerance for cheating. Cheating ruins the game. I don't like people who ruin games.

[Adel]

Since that seems to be all of the reaction I'm going to get out of her, I'll lay my cards on the table:

I'm calling the scumgroup as being elvis_knits + mathcam + marcos

A random wagon landed on mathcam, and elvis_knits is bussing him.

I am pretty sure the first line zu wrote was "I am out of the game." Then something like "I was vanilla townsperson.

scum being helpful by sharing information with the town

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

O... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

this is when she figured out that zu gave away the critical word!

I would consider anyone who cheats to have lost themselves the game. I'm not really scared that people are going to abuse the freedom we have been given. Perhaps I am too much of an optimistic, trusting person.

But basically, you have to accept that there is the possibility that people will cheat, and play or not play on those terms. There is nothing we can do about it other than decide not to play.

she is warning her scumbuddies not to cheat.

It's like you're trying to act like townie scared the scum will abuse the setup.

As an ethical player she wants to say "it is ok, I am scum and I will not cheat!"

If mathcam does not claim in the correct way (that lets us know he is not scum), please nobody correct him. Just vote him.

As clever scum she wants to bus her partner and confirm herself at the same time! She knows from zu's post which word to look for, and she thinks cam doesn't.

I think it is perfectly mature and ethical to ask you to verify one word from your pm. The choice of term here is important. It is not asking you to quote your pm. It is asking you for one word. I see nothing potentially illegal in that.

she doesn't think there is anything illegal about it because she figured the word out honestly.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

I suspect that marcos is scum with her, and she thinks that he is the one who did the editing. She has the added frustration then of being ethical scum who doesn't cheat, but is acting like a townie who bends the rules, while being pissed at her partner marcos who is cheating by editing posts.

I think elvis_knits suspected that Marcos (instead of Emptytiger) is the mystery editor because of the non-native english thing, and then he edited his own post just for cover.

For the record I have no idea if Marcos actually was doing the editing, all that matters to me is that it seems very possible that elvis thinks he did.

~~~

Sorry for being harsh earlier ellvis_knits, but I was trying to apply psychological pressure to get additional information out of you. I was trying to add stress to your life, which I have mixed feelings about, I can only apologize and hope that you understand.

[Adel]

This bothers me. Perhaps it's because it feels insincere coming from Adel.

I put players under psychological pressure from time to time, and I don't think I have ever regeretted or apologized for it.

Remind me not to let me drop my game-face around you again.

I think that little pink symbol under her avatar encouraged me to empathize with her more than I usually would, especially since she isn't in my "dumb bitch" category. Those cows I will happily brutalize all day long. Keep in mind I was in the military for several years, and today I work at a power plant that has an even more lop-sided male:female ratio, and I think she really was taking my insults to heart. If she were male I don't think I'd have second thoughts about it.

Plus, I think I just broke this game for us, and there is no point in rubbing additional salt into her wounds.

[Adel]

I agree with the rajwagon.

Adel -- Unless I missed it, I was not at all mentioned in that last post, so I'm not sure how I got on the list. This seems to be in strong contrast to last Friday's

while I don't like the way your partner bussed you, they proved in my mind that you didn't know the right word to drop. I think it was a bullshit wagon that happened to be accurate. 1/4 or so random wagons are going to be.

[Adel]

We aren't cheating or playing outside the rules because we did not open that door, you did when you partially claimed.

You're seriously arguing that it's cheating to claim that you're pro-town?

I have trouble believing that is a sincere objection.

you could've immediate said something to the effect of "pro-town is a proxy for the word in my role pm".

Anyhow, there are four or five players who I think acted in an unethical manner by asking your for the precise word, or a letter, or whatever.

~~~

@elvis: I doubt there is anything approaching a consensus rejecting psychological pressure as ethical play. FTR, I don't consider what you did to be unethical either, since you figured it out honestly.

[Adel]

I'm really interested in what Macros has to say about all of this.

[Adel]

Every one of Adel's interpretations of my post are based on an assumption that I am scum.

You can't assume someone is scum and then read their posts that way. You have to read their posts first and come to the conclusion that they are scum.

I honestly thought that you were a townie acting unethically until I read

I never said (or even suggested) that the wording still existed anywhere. I just stated that it

used to

exist in Zu's original post.

I also think this is important so as not to "confirm" any scumbags who remembered Zu's post (such as whomever edited the post to begin with).

Then I quickly read through the first three pages to see which players, if scum, might have put 2 and 2 together.

You stood out a little, so I read through all of your posts in isolation and had a serious moment of "Eureka!" -- almost enough to go racing naked through the streets of my town.

[Adel]

You should not make any post, or start any thread, with the intention of abusing, ridiculing, insulting, offending, or upsetting any other user on this site. Within a game, criticism of another player's play is acceptable - making it personal is not, and may result in action by the moderator of that game. Outside a game, determination of the intention of the poster will be made by mith, or someone appointed by mith.

good point. This is a lesson that will effect my future play.


Did you notice that I apologized? I meant it.

[Adel]

Adel, so you think that because I remembered zu's post correctly that I must be scum??

I quoted all of those lines from you because they collectively establish your guilt. You responded to the lines, then had a second response when you figured out just how literally honest Zu was. And you wrote all of that stuff establishing your position on cheating... and then you pretended to be willing to cheat to lynch scum.

[Adel]

that discrepancy, the difference between being so anti-cheat, and then so pro-cheat, is most easily explained by you writing the anti-cheat passages from your natural scum perspective, and then being willing to cheat from your "town" perspective. You saw your partner in a bind, and so you choose to buss him using a method of convenience.

[Adel]

cripes Glork, micro text is usually a no-no as well.

[Adel]

I am not supporting the raj vote for a number of reasons, one of them being that I don't have any mod powers either.

There simply aren't 12 mod duties to hand out, and I'm pretty sure that what mod powers there are were handed out proportionally between town and scum players.

I also doubt that we are in a town free of power roles, and I think we should stick to the general rule of the less we talk about power-roles the better off we are, and I think mod duties should also be thrown in with that group. No talkie talkie says I.

~~~

Why hasn't my case against elvis_knits and mathcam and macros been accepted? It tastes so true to me that I don't understand its lack of support.

[Adel]

posting this in all threads: I got dragged away for a surprise camping trip, and just got back. I will catch up asap.

[Adel]

you wote:


On a related note, I'm very suspicious of Glork, raj, and DGB for pushing for a claim. In my role PM, there is a very clearly delineated difference between my alignment and my role. There's no doubt that I will claim pro-town as my alignment, and given that my role is presumably independent of my alignment, I'm not sure what there is to gain from that either. Not only is it therefore bad play to claim (unnecessarily giving away information), it's also scummy to push for a claim. It's also possible that the scum role/alignment structure is set up differently, and thus that scum didn't know how worthless it would be to push for a claim. Raj is the scummiest of those three, so he gets my vote.



It seems to imply that there would be no information gleened from the alignment section of your role pm, which could only be true if all alignment PMs were the same and thus offered no information, which could only be true if you assumed this was a vanilla only setup.

this post is the one that made the most sense to me.

I have no assigned mod-duties

[Adel]

unvote, vote:Marcos

seems really obvious to me

[Adel]

Ugh. I hate how Macros and Pheebz seemingly want to throw in the towel. I'm not willing to lynch Pheebz right now, and I'm not sure about Macros. I've never played with him before, but if Pheobus and Pooky are vouching for him, I'm suddenly less willing to lynch him than I was this morning.


Adel's vote is particularly worrying, which flies in the face of the earlier read I had on her.

he admits to changing zu's post, and can't offer a good explanation for it.

the way I see it either:
a. he is scum who totallyy blundered his mod-power claim
or
b. is town, but would remain a distraction so long as he lives.

Either way, I don't him around in end-game.

So far his best defense is Pooky claim hat he is a terrible player.

Lynching him seems a pretty obvious choice to me.

~~~

I think that requiring a majority to lynch at deadline benefits the town the most.

[Adel]

@Phoebus:

@ Tall, I assumed iot was to give the game flavour, hence my excitement when the game started, I assumed (obviously quite wrongly) this was an oppourtunity for me to delight the masses with witty death scenes, my early foray to test the waters showed clearly everyone was not clued in to the idea (that I thought was immeadiately obvious) that despite the mature title, this game would be a delightful trip down a twisted nostalgia lane, chock full of old jokes, and random bullshit. But no, I was filled with disgust at the serious tone in pretty much everyones post, I was then forced to play dumb for fear of a pogrom on my fine self for editing the post (which is my job).

yes, the death post alterer would be most happy with a deadline.

Wait, wut? Did I miss something?

Did you edit zu_Faul's post?

Why?

I'm confused.

why not? its my job.

[Adel]

reading marcos' posts leaves me feeling hung over,, and without the fun of inebriation to compensate.

How in the hell does editing a player's post equate with writing a deathscene?

Especially when role an alignment are taken out?

He also now claims that part of his job is to confuse people?

nonsense, or at least it isn't the kind of sense I care to deal with.

Can we lynch him now, please?

[Adel]

oh my god, Macros, you suck.

unvote

[Adel]

I suspect that marcos is scum with her, and she thinks that he is the one who did the editing. She has the added frustration then of being ethical scum who doesn't cheat, but is acting like a townie who bends the rules, while being pissed at her partner marcos who is cheating by editing posts.

I think elvis_knits suspected that Marcos (instead of Emptytiger) is the mystery editor because of the non-native english thing, and then he edited his own post just for cover.

For the record I have no idea if Marcos actually was doing the editing, all that matters to me is that it seems very possible that elvis thinks he did.

~~~

Did anyone notice how much I rock for figuring this out?

vote: elvis_knits

even if Macros isn't scum with her, I can see reaction being natural for scum.

[Adel]

Here is where I am coming from to start the day: Glork and Coron are probaby scum.

Pooky was suspicious of two people yesterday - Mathcam and Glork. Mathcam is dead and was town. I do not believe the scum would kill Pooky if he was that wrong about both of them.

Vote: Glork

This totally ignores the matchcam kill simply for your case. How do you know the scum group killed pooky and not cam?

Winner winner chicken dinner.

vote: Axelrod

[Adel]

good posting.

unvote

[Adel]

Post cleaner.

Tags and double posts.

you find this claim iffy?

[Adel]

I think this game needs a round of prods.

[Adel]

fun fact: I just read http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1234 which is from a fairly recent theme game our mod ran. Each (except for one) scum had a safe claim vuia a fake role pm.

zu_Faul and rajrhcpfreak were in that game as well.

I don't have any conclusion based off of this, but the data seemed interesting enough to share.

who advocated knowledge of the precise term empytiger used for townie as clearing information yesterday?

[Adel]

What it suggests to me though, is that at least one (and very possibly only one) of DGB, Glork, or Adel is scum.

I agree with this, and that leaves me with

unvote, vote:DGB

since it looks like a better than 50% chance of her being scum from where I sit.

[Adel]

If the deadliner was scum, could they really take advantage of that? I mean, if they set an unreasonable deadline or one too quickly, we would all be up in arms and would be able to peer pressure it back. Conversely, if the deadliner refused to budge, they would probably get lynched for it, so I just dont see how it can be used for scums benefit.

I suspect our mod didn't spend too much time worrying about abuse of mod powers... we are all supposed to be mature, after all.

[Adel]

I think half of the point behind DGB's playstyle is to avoid creating a meta that is indicative of alignment.

Just saying.

[Adel]

eliminating players with no mod powers would at least get this game going a little, but I suspect that the same % of non-mod power claimed players who are scum as the rest of the mod-power equipped player population.

[Adel]

a formula for deadlines would make the process of determining a deadline both transparent as well a free from the possible perception of bias.
after trying (3*number of living players) in a couple of games, I currently think that (2*number of living players) is the best length of a game day to keep a game on track and reduce the number of required replacements. stalled games result in replacements, unpunished lurking, and scum wins.

[Adel]

I just replaced Coron in one of my games for inactivity.

Iguess everyone one here thinks they are too mature to play mafia.

[Adel]

I just replaced Coron in one of my games for inactivity.

Wha? Which game were you running?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8206
I had to prod you twice, and then I replaced you instead of prodding you a third time, in accordance the stated replacement policy (rule 12)

[Adel]

what this game needs is a ruthless replacement policy.

as a starting point, I propose that not posting for 10 days = auto-replacement

no prodding, just post or perish.

[Adel]

I haven't called anyone scum for lurking, I'm not leading a lynch-the-lurker campaign. I say we just replace them and get a game going. I've moved on from supporting a strict deadline policy (which I use as mod to influence the pace of a game) to a strict replacement policy.

I'm more worried about the scum lurking to a win or the game being abandoned.
Because there hasn't been much going on I'm supporting a DGB lynch (who has been active) becuase from my perspective I expect there to be one scum between Glork and DGB since they (along with me) were have not claimed specific mod powers.

[Adel]

# of posts by player:
Adel: 67
Axelrod: 57
Coron: 20
DGB: 48
elvis_knits:79
Glork: 108
logicticus: 30
macros: 48 + nonny: 3 = 52
Phoebus: 39 + Werebear: 7 = 46
Pooky: 47
rajrhcpfreak: 46
Talitha: 31

do any of these numbers stand out?

I didn't realise that logicticus and Talitha had posted so little or that Glork had posted so much.

[Adel]

So you find no mod powers scummy? So are you essentially calling yourself scummy?

not quite. I think there is a very good chance of one out of the three of us being scum. Given a choice between Glork and DGB, I'll supporting the DGB lynch, but Glork's lurking is starting o become more worrisome.

m active adel. It's the content not the number that matters, atleast to me. And looking back you may have 3 pages of posts all your own but they are all quite small and relitivly useless.

I built a big case against Elvis_knits that I will revisit sooner or later, but first I think we should settle no-mod powers vs mod-powers thing. Worst case scenario, I get lynched, than at least someone will look over my case and take it more seriously.

Those who do support a DGB lynch, do you still now that she is on vacation? Because if we do lynch her and she isn't around to post her role would we have to wait till she got back or go to night and have her post later? I would think with normal townie roles that have night actions the role of the person lynched does sometimes if not always come in to play when making your decision...

This is a good point. If she is on vacation and we lynch her then the game gets stalled, and I don't think it is a good idea to lynch someone without giving them a chance to claim . On the other hand, if we do not lynch her and he has a power role then we lose that action.

Shoot, I'm almost ready to motion for game abandonment. Perhaps mafia without a mod just doesn't work.

I think every player should voice support for an Adel, DGB, or Glork lynch. Those that don't vote or at least voice a strong opinion aren't meeting the minimum activity level for the game to continue, and should be replaced.

[Adel]

That isn't shocking comming from you, since if I was right about you and elvis_knits being scum then I expect that mathcam was killed by you and elvis to discredit my theory.

Since that seems to be all of the reaction I'm going to get out of her, I'll lay my cards on the table:

I'm calling the scumgroup as being elvis_knits + mathcam +

marcos

nonny

A random wagon landed on mathcam, and elvis_knits is bussing him.

I am pretty sure the first line zu wrote was "I am out of the game." Then something like "I was vanilla townsperson.

scum being helpful by sharing information with the town

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

O... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

this is when she figured out that zu gave away the critical word!

I would consider anyone who cheats to have lost themselves the game. I'm not really scared that people are going to abuse the freedom we have been given. Perhaps I am too much of an optimistic, trusting person.

But basically, you have to accept that there is the possibility that people will cheat, and play or not play on those terms. There is nothing we can do about it other than decide not to play.

she is warning her scumbuddies not to cheat.

It's like you're trying to act like townie scared the scum will abuse the setup.

As an ethical player she wants to say "it is ok, I am scum and I will not cheat!"

If mathcam does not claim in the correct way (that lets us know he is not scum), please nobody correct him. Just vote him.

As clever scum she wants to bus her partner and confirm herself at the same time! She knows from zu's post which word to look for, and she thinks cam doesn't.

I think it is perfectly mature and ethical to ask you to verify one word from your pm. The choice of term here is important. It is not asking you to quote your pm. It is asking you for one word. I see nothing potentially illegal in that.

she doesn't think there is anything illegal about it because she figured the word out honestly.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

I suspect that marcos is scum with her, and she thinks that he is the one who did the editing. She has the added frustration then of being ethical scum who doesn't cheat, but is acting like a townie who bends the rules, while being pissed at her partner marcos who is cheating by editing posts.

I think elvis_knits suspected that Marcos (instead of Emptytiger) is the mystery editor because of the non-native english thing, and then he edited his own post just for cover.

For the record I have no idea if Marcos actually was doing the editing, all that matters to me is that it seems very possible that elvis thinks he did.

~~~

Sorry for being harsh earlier ellvis_knits, but I was trying to apply psychological pressure to get additional information out of you. I was trying to add stress to your life, which I have mixed feelings about, I can only apologize and hope that you understand.

btw, after this post, didn't macros admit to editing posts?

[Adel]

unvote DGB, vote: nonny

DGB is on vacation, and Glork needs to be prodded and/or replaced, so I'll return to plan "a".

could some other players please voice an opinion, or better yet, vote for someone?!!?

[Adel]

the fact that I was right about macros being the death post editor might give a genuine townie pause...

[Adel]

he took out information that other people though was cheating, elvis_knits got pissed about that cheating, I made up my theory, he was revealed to be the death post editor, and made a bunch of post rationalizing his actions.... then replaced out.

I still find it totally plausible that elvis_knits was pissed about her scumbuddy cheating.

[Adel]

Taking the role information out of zu's post still seems a little like cheating to me.

[Adel]

I think you just aren't able to get over your grudge on elvis, nor are you able to see an perspective other than your own. If you had the job to edit death posts, would you? It's a matter of doing ones job, for all we know is there a penelaty for not doing your job?

What would the basis of my grudge aganst elvis be? I attacked her out of the blue. We don't have a history from previous games.

I encourage everyone to look at the timing of Macros's mod power claim.
Then take a look at my attack on elvis and Macros. I suspect there is a cause and effect relationship.

Note that mathcam was killed off by the scum, who I named as a third person in my expected scum team, which is a common way to discredit scum team theories.

[Adel]

Are you suggesting that matcam was killed off by a vig? That would be the only alternative. Death-doctors wouldn't work in this setup.

[Adel]

Are you suggesting that matcam was killed off by a vig? That would be the only alternative. Death-doctors wouldn't work in this setup.

I think the point is we don't know if it was a vig or sk or mafia. Or something weird. You're assuming it was not a vig. Which hints to you being more informed about NK's that the rest of the town.

.. or I simply forgot that Pooky also died last night, and was left wondering why y'all were making such a big deal about it.

[Adel]

not really.

My mod role is flavorer. I'm supposed to add flavor to the deathposts.

I believe, as I said earlier, Marcos just believed he was doing his job. I know some poeple, even myself, would have done it differently. But he thought he was just acting within his role. And you know he technically was.

I don't know what supposed important information he took out of zu's post, the special "word"

I think the point of the game is to show that maybe there are different styles of modding, and that sometimes poeple get mad at mods over silly things, or over just doing thier job? We've all seen that to be true and some of us have experienced it. Most of us I believe have modded games before?

The stuff that really re-enforces my belief that you are scum is in bold.

[Adel]

Try reading day 1 over again. I think you missed some vital information, and it obviously isn't in your role PM.

[Adel]

well it is only going to take two more votes to lynch me, and frankly I'll almost welcome it.

[Adel]

do you want me to use the special word that you do not know?

[Adel]

I'm not at lynch -1. Just saying. Kudos to you for the subtle role-fishing though.

[Adel]

lol, no, it has just been you.

[Adel]

I'm sorry, where did those people ask me to claim?

Up to you, I don't see any special word, nor could i derive what you meant from day one.

I was looking more for if you had a role like vig or something?

That part in bold is the what I was referrring to as an example of "subtle role-fishing". I'm sorry that you missed my dripping sarcasm.

I see no reason to claim.

[Adel]

And how would claiming help resolve any of this? This is a setup without any doctors, and there is no way there is enough power roles in this setup for there to be safety in numbers.

And why were you asking me to claim at lynch -2? It seemed like you were banking on me being an impressionable newbie or something (saying "this is when people usuually claim" or whatever) and were trying to pressure me into a premature claim when I was in absolutley no danger of being quickly lynched.

[Adel]

Also In the all mafia I've played waiting till L-1 to claim usually results in you being lynched before you claim or before the claim can be discussed.

I suspect that I've played more mafia on this site than you have. I know that I've done some abnormally deep research into the mini-normal format, which is what this game basically is, minus a mod. L-1 is typical when there are this many people alive.

There are no doctors in this setup. The mechanic would not work.

You and elvis are voting for me. The two of you are my best guess for scum. The third member of your group is either allready voting for me, or would have to be a fool to hammer me.

Quicklynches do not happen when a game has this low of anactivity level.

If I felt there was a real case against me then I might have to worry about getting lynched.

Since you seem to have the time, would you mind reading back through my posts and answering all of my questions that you have so far avoided?

[Adel]

cite three games where a lurker-fest turned into a speed lynch when a person was ready to claim but got lynched too quickly. Document the basis of your experience.

My case moved from elvis to you because I see more reasons to suspect you of being scum. It became very clear to me that macros was scum who opted for replacement when he could not explain his actions.

I was against the mathcam wagon, IIRC, because it was a b.s. wagon. I eventually began to suspect that it may accidently be correct.

the whole "word" thing is basically against the mysterious "spirit" of mafia that I keep getting slammed with by Soel and Flay and company in MD.

I chilled out during the beginng of today to look at the game with a wider perspective, attempt to promote more participation and more information from more players. I was happy with the choice being limited to Glork and DGB me for a while as a way of either netting one scum (an assumption based upon based upon an attempt to out-guess our mod) or at least establishing that wasn't a coorelation between lack of claimed mod powers and scum-alignment. I finially became impatient with our lurker-fest and returned to the best theory I have: elvis and nonny are scum together.

If I recall correctly, there was no movement to lynch me until I started to point out how scummy the two of you were together.

Why am I close to lynch right now?

[Adel]

I was glad to see phoebus replaced. I would also like to see Coron and Glork follow if they don't start posting soon.

Why don't we call it a night so that other players can digest our exchange. Our little typing contest has probably taken up enough of everyone's time at this point, especially mine.

what about talitha? why did you leave her off of your activity summery?

[Adel]

a formula for deadlines would make the process of determining a deadline both transparent as well a free from the possible perception of bias.
after trying (3*number of living players) in a couple of games, I currently think that (2*number of living players) is the best length of a game day to keep a game on track and reduce the number of required replacements. stalled games result in replacements, unpunished lurking, and scum wins.

could we consider an auto-deadline rule now? the pace of this game is killing me.

[Adel]

he was forced to be replaced? I just don't see it.

[Adel]

it is starting to feel like I'm just playing mafia with you.

2-player mafia sucks.

[Adel]

um, hello. Elivis_knits and nonny are scum. Can we lynch them now, please?

[Adel]

how exactly are you going about finding a replacement?

[Adel]

i think it is informative to read all posts by logicticus in isolation.

Where does he get the idea that he is an active player?

[Adel]

I almost just want to mod kill half the players so the active ones can at least continue on in some semblance of a game.

would you be in the half that are active enough to avoid your proposed (jokingly) modkill of the inactive 50%?

[Adel]

I will vote for whoever out of nonny, werebear and DGB has the most votes close to deadline.

I'll vote for DGB or nonny for a lynch.

[Adel]

I really prefer Nonny to DGB... why are you guys rushing to DGB over Nonny?

[Adel]

It is stronger than what I have on DGB, and Macros' and your stories don't match up or make sense to me.

[Adel]

I don't think DGB is necessarily scum. Axel almost certainly is. I'd put money on one of {Werebear, Logic} as well.



Seriously, analysis post coming tonight or y'all can lynch me dead.

Glork' play is seeming scummier and scummier to me.

unvote, vote: Glork

[Adel]

Alright, I will lock the thread when glork posts his role and then unlock it in 48 hours.

it has been more than 48 hours. are you going to unlock the thread?

[Adel]

DGB -- didn't you get my PM?

(joke!)

you seem to have unlocked it without me.

sorry about that folks, i was busy killing cops in gta

with mod rights we can post in the thread without unlocking it

The thread is still locked.

I suppose it is a little naughty for us to be talking in a locked thread, so I'll shut up now until you unlock the thread (note the little closed padlock symbol down on the lower left of the screen.)

[Adel]

nope.

[Adel]

1) DrippingGoofball

alive!

2)

Coron

armix

alive!

3) Talitha

alive!

6) logicticus

alive!

10)

Phoebus

Werebear
11)

Macros

Nonny

alive!

12) Adel

alive!

13) elvis_knits
14) Axelrod

alive!

would someone prod Werebear and elvis_knits?

[Adel]

I love the thread titles in this game.

Thanks, I wanted a mod duty, so I took one.

[Adel]

Why are poeple still insisting non-mod powers = scum?

I wrote a whole post on this, you know. It's just a theory that not ALL the scum were given Mod. duties in this game, as opposed to the bunch of townies who were not given duties. Aesthetically, that makes sense to me. So it's more of a process of elimination thing, although there may be other reasons to vote one of those people completely aside from the lack of Mod. duty.

I've been thinking about this, and it leads me to the conclusion that DGB must be scum.

at least one out of the three (or four) players who were not given mod powers has to be scum- or is emptytiger just really tricky? but really it seems to me that one of the non-mods would be scum.

vote:DGB

Is anyone else starting to get the feeling that we only have two mafia?

[Adel]

Adel: that is the worst reasoning I've ever seen, to implement being this close to lynch or lose, and have no actual effective scum hunting thus far.

FOS Adel

All of the scumhunting I've done so far pointed at you and elvis_knis being scum, and elvis_knits wasn't scum. I think there is something going on with Tally and logic and armix, but I am not sure what it is yet.

[Adel]

OK, I change my mind. Nonny's latest post has the fresh aroma of an honest townie.

Adel, on the other hand, just oozed out of the compost pile.

vote: Adel

I am not the easy target you think I am. You've thrown low-level attacks at me all game, but I am pretty confident (from a game design perspective) that one the non-mod-enabled players has got to be scum. The alternatives would be that all of the scum were given mod duties, or that some or all of the scum fakeclaimed mod abilities. But here we are voting for each other, so I take it this is our stand off, and one of us is going to be the lynch for today. I am very willing to play this game.

[Adel]

What if the mod-duties were granted AT RANDOM??? Knowing my own alignment, I can be certain that they were.

huh, that syntax implies that you know that I am town.

[Adel]

You've thrown low-level attacks at me all game, but I am pretty confident (from a game design perspective) that one the non-mod-enabled players has got to be scum. The alternatives would be that all of the scum were given mod duties, or that some or all of the scum fakeclaimed mod abilities.

This is a nice theory, exactly the kind of theory that I often receive from my very own tinfoil hat when it's tuned to the wrong frequency.

I am not mod-enabled and I am not scum. The problem with testing your theory is that if I am lynched, we pretty much lose the game.

What if the mod-duties were granted AT RANDOM??? Knowing my own alignment, I can be certain that they were.

my case against you supposes your absent mod intentional made a similar % of mod-enabled and non-mod enabled players scum. I believe that 4 players were non-mod enabled, out of 12, and therefore 1 out of those 4 are scum. You and I are the only non-mod enabled players left alive.

shit... what if this is a 2:10 or 2:1:9 game? I hadn't rethought in light of that possibility.

unvote

[Adel]

um, if I thought there were 12 to start with.
Could we be in a double-scum game? The lack of cross kills at this point makes me doubt it.

I guess that 3:11 with a vig makes pretty good sense. 3:1:10 also would be pretty balanced.

So 1 out of the 4(?) players with no assigned mod duties being scum still fits. 1 out of 3 would fit a little less well, but not by much.

vote: DGB

[Adel]

I'll go with DGB or nonny.

[Adel]

I'll go with DGB or nonny.

You know Adel, if I believed your logic, and maybe I should, then you're scum.

you are voting for me.

[Adel]

I suggest that the other players pick one player to lynch between Adel and myself.

I agree.

[Adel]

and if the town lynches me, the vig should kill DGB during the night.

[Adel]

lol @ rolefishing accusation comming from nonny.

I believe that there is a vig in this game. I do not believe that there could be a nk-immune sk or a doctor in this game.

This is normally the part where people claim, adel

Up to you, I don't see any special word, nor could i derive what you meant from day one.

I was looking more for if you had a role like vig or something?

@DGB: read though the posts by tally and nonny. do you see anything?

[Adel]

funny, that isn't like your response at the time:

No you are at L-2. And role-fishing? Oh you mean like everyone has been doing since your slip up?

[Adel]

I'm voting DGB because I find the 1 out of (3 or 4) non-mods being scum theory convincing. I find you to be a little less likely to be scum, but I do consider macros' editing actions and your subsequent actions (especially your interaction with me) to be signficant scumtells.

In case I do have blinders on, I'm asking DGB to look at a set of interactions that I've looked at. I'm giving her an opening to help the town (especially me) figure out a relationship, just in case she isn't scum.

[Adel]

How about saying what you supposedly see between tally and I, instead of asking DGB to fish something out for you.

I see a relationship I haven't quite been able to get a solid conclusion on. Neither of you have sufered a serious wagon, yet you have exchanged several votes and quite a few words. In many of the sentances where you mention tally you also mention elvis_knits, and at the time I thought you were scum with elvis_knits, so I figured that you were lumping elvis in with an innocent towie for coverage.

[Adel]

So, what do people think of Glork's suggestions for scum, now that we know Glork was town? At the least I'd like everyone to take a look at logicticus, and make a judgment... town or scum... ?

is there a particular reason we shouldn't also look at Axelrod?

[Adel]

um, Glork has a well-earned reputation for being a great scum-hunter. One of the reasons I voted for him was because he didn't have well developed cases against his targets logic and Axel.

[Adel]

So, what do people think of Glork's suggestions for scum, now that we know Glork was town? At the least I'd like everyone to take a look at logicticus, and make a judgment... town or scum... ?

is there a particular reason we shouldn't also look at Axelrod?

Thats kind of interesting considering Axel was the catalyst for the lynch anyways.

And that Glork really devoted the majority of his posting against Axelrod, his focus on logic was much less intense.

Does anyone else feel a Tally/Axel/DGB group?

[Adel]

Adel is extremely scummy today, I have to say.

and why did you wait until now to say so?

[Adel]

at least one out of the three (or four) players who were not given mod powers has to be scum- or is emptytiger just really tricky? but really it seems to me that one of the non-mods would be scum.

IMO, Emptyger would very likely have randomly assigned the mod powers. Meaning that we can't get anywhere from this line of reasoning.

So, what do people think of Glork's suggestions for scum, now that we know Glork was town? At the least I'd like everyone to take a look at logicticus, and make a judgment... town or scum... ?

(I also need to read over carefully but been busy this weekend and I fear that my week is only going to get busier )

so it was my posts in response to this one that made you suspect me as scum? Which one specifically gave me away? 1050, 1052, or 1055?

[Adel]

To make myself more clear, I'm not convinced that you are scum, Adel. I've just noted as the day has gone on that I've got an odd vibe from some of your posts. After noticing this a few times, I decided to comment on it. It was partially a reminder to myself not to give you a free pass, and partially thinking out loud.

I find it convienant that after spending the majority of this game coasting along with a minimal amount of input and a minimal amount of suspicion, as soon as I identify a scumtell against you you conclude that I have been acting scummy today.

Timing is everything, and your's stinks.

[Adel]

Adel: Well of course you trying to drum up suspicion on me is scummy. I'm innocent. That was what tipped me over the edge to say something. And I am sort of offended that you single me out as "coasting along" and "minimal input".

from an objective perspective can you understand how it would register as a scumtell to focus on Glork's suspicion of logic when Glork's primary focus seems to have been on Axel? During this game you have been costing along, as have most players. Overall, participation in this game has been pathetic, especially considering how august the original player list was perceived to be. Looking back through your posts I don't see much that illuminates your alignment, so when I picked up on a notable tell it really stood out.

Nonny: Did you notice that it was already after deadline when you switched to voting logicticus? I thought that was kinda suss because I saw that you were lurking around the forum in the time leading up to deadline.

suss? as in "suspicious"? I'm not familiar with the word. What are you accusing her of?

You know what really stinks? The fact that only 4 of us are actively playing the game.

welcome to the club! I totally agree.

Werebear could use a prod, and Logic & DGB & Axel could use one soon.

All four of them can't be scum, but lurking this late in the game is hella scummy, and absolutely hurts our chances of winning. We need a much higher overall participation rate.

[Adel]

I'm completely of the idea that mod powers were randomly given now. Especially since I think there are less non-powered people are barely enough to make a scum group.

I also think since there's no cop, that there would be two scum, no more, no less. One scum is no fun, a random lynch day 1 would end the game, and 3 scum would be nigh-unto-unbeatable with no cops. The vigilante idea is also a good one, since it would explain the second kill (I'm still trying to decide if Occam's Razor would pick that, or an error on someone's part as the most reasonable conclusion)

Even though I do believe in "switch your vote at the last minute rather than nolynch", of the two choices nonny and logiciticus, I'd choose logiciticus.

what new information led you to change your mind? You were all about lynching one of the non-mods yesterday.

without 2:10 would make sense. 2:12 would not. I think this game is 3:11

Still, why were you so willing to lynch one of us yesterday but not today?

[Adel]

vote count?

[Adel]

I have the feeling that we've entered the "buss your partners" phase of the game for scum.

[Adel]

And I retract my offer to lynch Werebear, for now. I want to lynch logicticus and only logicticus. Or maybe Axelrod.

I have the feeling that we've entered the "buss your partners" phase of the game for scum.

unvote, vote: Talitha

[Adel]

Please note, Adel added a vote there, with no "EDIT". Bad form.

Please note that I added a second post very similar to the first. No editing was performed. False accusation = bad form.

[Adel]

What gives you that feeling, Adel?

your behavior. I think logic is the mislynch you intended to push through for today, but you are willing to settle upon one of your scum partners (Axel? Werebear?) to bus.

[Adel]

Wait, am I bussing here or mislynching?

I can't tell, not really. I think we should lynch you today just to be safe. We can worry which person (logic, Werebear, Axel) you were trying to bus and which you were trying to mislynch tomorrow.

[Adel]

meh, I didn't get want I wanted out of that exchange.

I was hoping for a huge scumtell, but I don't see it.

unvote, vote:Nonny

still the best case from my perspective.

[Adel]

I have felt for most of the game that logicticus was at least trying. That might change after a review, but he's nowhere near the top of the list.

I would say that Talitha is next least person of interest.

why are you so willing to discard Tally as a suspect?

[Adel]

Adel, did you have a certain expectation of a kind of scumtell you would get, or were you just hoping for the best?

I did have a certain expectation, but I was mostly hoping for the best.

[Adel]

sorry for my inactivity, I've been having a serious attack of "Mafia is pointless and random"


I'm down with lynching Nonny. We don't have many days left to let her continue being the #2 wagon, the almost-lynched player. It is a pattern that should be familiar to all of us, like a bad joke.

What do you call a person who is always the second-scummiest? scum.

[Adel]

I thought you were on the no mod job = scum wagon. What made you change, yet again?

I have too theories, one is that DGB is scum and Werebear and Tally are scum with her, and the other is that you are so damn scummy it is a miracle that you survived this far.

It's not like we have a deadline, this is the time where you actually discuss. Maybe look over my case and questions directed at you?

Which questions?

Are you still trying to push your case from day one? Were macros was only scum by association, so if the other two weren't scum then the association doesn't hold. How about your "new" reasons then?

1. macros changed posts, got caught, (or confessed out of fear), and then got himself replaced by you.
2. Each day there have been a number of people willing to lynch you, but you have not been lynched
3. Your activity level and approach to this game makes me think that you are narrowly managing to survive by out-typing the townies who would like to lynch you.

You are jumping around so much no wonder nothing is being accomplished and you feel it's pointless. If you jump that many times then nothing happens.

If no one else is willing to I will send out prods.

Please send out prods.

[Adel]

I thought you were on the no mod job = scum wagon. What made you change, yet again? It's not like we have a deadline, this is the time where you actually discuss. Maybe look over my case and questions directed at you? Are you still trying to push your case from day one? Were macros was only scum by association, so if the other two weren't scum then the association doesn't hold. How about your "new" reasons then?

I was just thinking about this. I was sold on DGB being scum based off of out-guessing the mod, but once Glork was lynched, the support for that totally went away so I lost faith in it. Now that lack of support is bothering me, because Glork is far more dangeruous for scum than DGB or I am. It seems to me that the scum advanced the "lynch one of the no mod power players" to get a mislynch, and then abandoned it. Did they abandon it because they saw that DGB would be the next person lynched on that case instead of me? Did they abandon it becuase once Glork was out of the picture they could coast to a win?

Who are the players who were gung-ho for lynching one of the "no mod power" players until Glork was lynched? I'm thinking of Axelrod and Werebear, but am I missing anyone? Do their reasons for no longer wanting to lynch one of the "no mod power" players read as sincere? Is this a signficant tell against DGB?

[Adel]

did you just totally skip my post? I meant the questions for everyone.

[Adel]

@armix: you've been in this game for a month now. Could you give us a fatty post with paragraphs and developed ideas and such? Looking back over your posts I can't extract any information that would illuminate your alignment, and Coron left us with even less. The net effect is that I'm left with the impression that you are lurking and avoiding attention.

Also, votecount please, thanks.

[Adel]

Weather report. I am now getting solid pro-town vibes from Adel. I will jump off a cliff if she's scum and fooling me so thoroughly.

I wish I could say the same about you. Your last decent post was when, mid-May? If you are town and we lose this game without you starting to place some real effort into it I'm going to push you off of that cliff^*.



^* a joke, you know I adore you, and would never want you to have to endure a fall that would leave you with more than the most minor of injuries. Irregardless, start posting damn it. Show us a circle of mafiascum magick or whatever it is you do when you actually try to analyse a game.

[Adel]

Adel, if those are your impressions of armlx, then what are your impressions of logicticus?


*seconds request for vote count*

Another winner in the "let's contribute as little as possible" contest.

[Adel]

meh, I didn't get want I wanted out of that exchange.

I was hoping for a huge scumtell, but I don't see it.

unvote, vote:Nonny

still the best case from my perspective.

my vote is on Nonny, from this post.

Corrected Vote Count

nonny- 1 (armlx, Adel)
logictus- 1 (Tally)
werebear- 1 (DGB)
axel- 1 (nonny)

(Axel, Logictus, Werebear)

8 alive, 5 to lynch

were there any other mistakes?

[Adel]

There's an argument between Nonny and Adel then where each vote for the other. Another somewhat interesting moment comes when Talitha pops in and votes for Adel. Nonny's response is HERE. Even though Talitha has apparently agreed that Adel is scummiest, Nonny want to know her reasons. Perhaps it's just me, and it's certainly possible I've done something similar in my time, but when I'm making a case on someone, and voting for them, and someone else comes along and

agrees

and

also

votes for the person I am voting for, I don't typically do what Nonny does here. I am either (1) happy for the support, and don't worry the bandwaggoner didn't give their own independant reasons; or (2) suspicious of the waggoning, which makes me doubt the validity of the original case. It depends on what the original case was based on, of course. Nonny isn't doing either of those here. She's doing both. She's happy with the support and apparently still wants Adel lynched, but she's

also

questioning Talitha, who just voted in support. It's a little bit schizophrenic.

As I said, I am not saying I've never done something like this before myself. I've been playing this stupid game a long, long time, so anything's possible. I just don't quite "get" the mindset that Nonny is coming from here.

Adel is run up to about L-2, when Talitha unvotes. Then there's THIS unvote from Nonny. This is another eyebrow raiser for me. I don't see where Adel has done

anything

to convince you that she is less likely scum. You certainly don't quote anything which you say is making you think she's less likely scum. You just say that she's "being helpful by being active."

On the one hand, I can respect the "don't lynch the people who are actually playing over the people who aren't" position. In fact, that was my

exact

position in THIS post, which was made exactly two posts before Nonny's unvote. I am (essentially) explaining why I am not voting for Nonny now - she's participating. It's almost as if Nonny is barning

me

here, and jumping off a wagon that isn't going anywhere using an excuse I have given her.

But the thing is, if I was actually voting someone for being scum, and genuinely thought they were scum, the fact that they were actively participating wouldn't stop me from voting for them. I was voting Glork at that point, and Glork never gave me a reason not to vote for him the entire time, so my vote just never came off (until a brief switch-up close to the deadline). I don't get why Nonny is unvoting here. Up to this point, Adel has been her primary focus.

that Nonny knew I am town would be a good explanation. That seems to also indicate that Tally and Nonny aren't scum together.

[Adel]

Right now my gut and logic leads me to believe it's a axel-tally pairing.

Not in a million years. Axel is town. You have now set my scumdar on fire.

unless Axel is bussing Nonny, but I will take an accurate lynch whichever way it comes.

[Adel]

Is this game actually going anywhere?

[Adel]

nonny hasn't been lynched yet.

[Adel]

have you been reading the thread? yes, I've gone pretty hard after everyone still living except for you and logic.

[Adel]

she is easily the most scummy, and I take the very absence of a strong wagon on her as evidence of her scumminess. Would scum really leave someone that scummy-looking alive this long?

[Adel]

IIRC

everyone

who is currently alive, with the exception of logic and werebear, has voted for Nonny at least once, and she makes frequent appearences on people's "top three most likely to be scum" lists. Logic has included her recently on his top three as well. DGB is the only other player to attract as much negative attention. I am used to reading through games and noting how scum often manage to narrowly avoid being lynched day after day, and that is how Macros/Nonny seem to me: obviously scummy players who managed no to get lynched day after day.

It wouldn't take much of a push to get nonny mis-lynched if she were scum, and nobody has pushed very hard to get her lynched. We are (probably) in lynch or lose, and she is still alive!

The only reason, as I see it, that Glork was lynched yesterday instead of her, was the entire "one of the non-mod claimed players is scum" agrument mostly fowarded (again, IIRC) by werebear. Werbear has only voted for DGB this game, and he abondoned that argument as soon as Glork was lynched. Phoebus only voted for mathcam and raj.

In short, there are a bunch of players who could be scum with Nonny, and who have made posts criticizing her that could be scum distancing from her, but there hasn't been a really strong and serious wagon on her, and she hasn't been lynched. How else could a player that scummy still be alive? It seems obvious that her partners haven't bussed her... and didn't Tally say earlier that it would be stupid for scum to bus this day?

[Adel]

a: scum do vote for occasionaly as a form of distancing. you know this.

b: my typo: if she were scum it wouldn't be a mis-lynch. I'm tired and my typing is crappy right now. she is too scummy to not have been wagoned if she were town, ergo, she is highly likely to be scum.

[Adel]

Tally: can you see logic being scum without Nonny also being scum? I pretty much can't.

[Adel]

Probably something obvious I've missed, but what makes you think that nonny has to be scum if logic is, Adel?

I'm afraid that there isn't anything obvious about it. I always have trouble explaining this sort of thing-- my kind of pattern recognition doesn't lend itself to words very easily.

I see a number of likely (plausible) prospective scum groupings, and while Nonny is in some that logic isn't, logic isn't in any without Nonny.

I'm not trying to us my groupings as a reason to lynch Nonny (even though it is one of my prime reasons for pushing for her lynch) because I understand that it isn't something that I can explain in a convincing way. I was kind of hoping that you saw what I see.

I don't know how much you depend upon your gut, but consider listening to those 17 different reasons.

[Adel]

Where does Werebear fit in your gut groups, Adel?

With you, mostly. That set of interaction reminds me of the full game bus the Fonz and shaft.ed pulled in SMMII, which I'm sure you remember.

[Adel]

can we get a vote count, and like more voting please?

[Adel]

meh, I didn't get want I wanted out of that exchange.

I was hoping for a huge scumtell, but I don't see it.

unvote, vote:Nonny

still the best case from my perspective.

my vote is on Nonny, from this post.

Corrected Vote Count

nonny- 1 (armlx, Adel)
logictus- 1 (Tally)
werebear- 1 (DGB)
axel- 1 (nonny)

(Axel, Logictus, Werebear)

8 alive, 5 to lynch

were there any other mistakes?

My vote hasn't changed since this post. WTF?

[Adel]

I find it interesting that there has been a lot of heat on nonny lately and yet she has nobody voting for her, does this mean people truly dont believe she is scum?

I am voting for her, I believe she is scum.
It seems so obvious to me that if she were town then scum would be on her wagon with me, but here I am, all alone, sitting in a wagon built for 5.

[Adel]

That "If she was town, more people would vote her" sounds really close to WIFOM IMHO.

WIFOM? So you think that scum aren't pushing for a Nonny mislynch so that we will think that she is scum because there isn't a serious wagon on her and mislynch her without their help?

I also see that your vote is on Werebear, along with DGB's. Why do you think the case against Werebear is stronger than the case against Nonny? IIRC, you began this day with a vote on Nonny, why aren't you voting for her now? It looks like it may be scum distancing to me, and now you want no part of her wagon because you don't really want to see her get lynched.

[Adel]

not to mention that twice now you have "accidently" left off my vote on Nonny. Twice.

[Adel]

not to mention that twice now you have "accidently" left off my vote on Nonny. Twice.

I copy pasted my last VC and just skimmed for votes since then. This is a clear attempt to spin my actions as anything other then lazy like most mods doing VCs.

I also see that your vote is on Werebear, along with DGB's. Why do you think the case against Werebear is stronger than the case against Nonny? IIRC, you began this day with a vote on Nonny, why aren't you voting for her now?

I feel Phoebus's actions were worse then Macros's.

WIFOM? So you think that scum aren't pushing for a Nonny mislynch so that we will think that she is scum because there isn't a serious wagon on her and mislynch her without their help?

Wouldn't it then be too obvious if there were all these votes there?

Out of 40 games a mod has

never

ignored my vote twice.
I can only think of a couple of times when my vote has been ignored at all.

What are the differences between Coron's faults and Phoebus's again? None?

I'm tempted to think that we aren't really in lynch or lose because there hasn't been a strong wagon.

[Adel]

"fatalism" and being "opportunistic" fail to convince me of Werebear's guilt.

DBG's case against him is not any better:

Let's get out of the doldrums.

vote: Werebear

[Adel]

I'm still confused and had to think about that for several minutes. Are you saying I'm scum and nonny's town? Because you could just come out and say it instead of acting all slimy-like.

I'm saying I believe Adel's statement applies here. I bet 1 of the two of you is scum.

I'm really not so worried if Tally is scum: I am only worried about if Nonny is scum or not. I feel she is. If her partners want to bus her (which Tally said would be a bad idea earlier) then I would like to encourage them.

[Adel]

armix sucks votecount

werebear- 2 (DGB, armlx)
nonny-2 (Adel, Tally)
axel- 1 (nonny)
DGB- 1 (werebear)

(Axel, Logictus)

8 alive, 5 to lynch

~~~

Is it time to send out another round of prods?

[Adel]

sweet jesus, I've read seen your name on the screen hundreds if not thousands of times, and I always thought the "l" was an "i".

[Adel]

armlx should put a votecount on every page votecount

werebear- 2 (DGB, armlx)
nonny-2 (Adel, Tally)
axel- 1 (nonny)
DGB- 1 (werebear)

(Axel, Logictus)

8 alive, 5 to lynch

~~~

Werebear is making me want to strangle him.

[Adel]

I'm not willing to vote for Werebear. Are you willing to vote for Nonny?

[Adel]

I don't see anything that disproves the Werebear/Nonny theory, but I don't see anything that clearly supports it either.

How are you feeling about Axelrod? Likely town?

[Adel]

So, what do people think of Glork's suggestions for scum, now that we know Glork was town? At the least I'd like everyone to take a look at logicticus, and make a judgment... town or scum... ?

is there a particular reason we shouldn't also look at Axelrod?

Thats kind of interesting considering Axel was the catalyst for the lynch anyways.

And that Glork really devoted the majority of his posting against Axelrod, his focus on logic was much less intense.

Does anyone else feel a Tally/Axel/DGB group?

this is still bothering me. Tally is voting for Nonny, DGB say that she might, and judging from Axelrod's post breakdown on Nonny I think he may vote for Nonny as well.

Which means that if one townie other than myself votes for Nonny, then the path wil be clear for a Tally/Axel/DGB scum-group to get their game-winning lynch.

On the other hand, Nonny is the single most suspicious person, and based off of that I want to see her get lynched.

If not Nonny, than who should we lynch? I don't see any support (except from Nonny) for lynching Tally, Axel or DGB.

I have changed my find on this several times allready, but I'm back to thinking that if Axel, Tally, and DGB are scum then they have pretty much won, unless there is any last minute support for lynching DGB. Any takers?

[Adel]

could my scumdar be broken and Axel, Tally, and DGB are all town?

[Adel]

Adel, Werebear seems to be missing from your assessment.

I also left out logic & armlx.

The theory I have that compeates with the Axel/Tally/DGB scum group is that two of (armlx, logic, werebear) are scum with Nonny.

Please note that my vote is still on Nonny. I'm just voicing my doubts.

[Adel]

I think trying to argue that there are only two scum could be tied with trying to convince the town that we aren't in lynch-or-lose.

Why can't logic be scum with Werebear & Nonny? Can he be scum with just one of them? Which one?

[Adel]

The only way I can think of there only being two mafia is if the mod (ha!) anticipated major scum shenanigans. I don't think that is very probable.

[Adel]

Or the mod played to the 10-2 is unwinnable meta. Adding an extra day in a vanilla game seems fairish to help balance it.

explain the extra kill day 2 then.

[Adel]

explain the extra kill day 2 then.

Cheatz?

if that is the case..... grrr.

also, are you willing to lynch Nonny?

[Adel]

nonny, would you vote to lynch Werebear?

Werebear, would you be willing to lynch nonny?

damn, you beat me to it.

[Adel]

it is presenting an idea that will not be carried out, so for scum it is a chance to build townie cred without risking much.

[Adel]

I'm willing to lynch Werebear now.

[Adel]

I will put nonny at L-2

I know this probably shakes up the werebear wagon that is revving up, but I would much prefer to lynch nonny over werebear

vote nonny

this makes me a little bit more willing to vote for Werebear.

[Adel]

So maybe someone who has more experience with DGB can weigh in on whether this is just typical for her or not. She's not the top scum candidate, because she hasn't done anything that in and of itself I would say is super scummy, but she's been vague a lot, and waggoned a lot, and lurked a lot, and the combination of all these things doesn't look exactly good either.

Meh.

based off of four or five games of her games from the last year, nothing stands out as unusual for her.

[Adel]

so that makes five votes and a lynch?

[Adel]

I'm not dead either.

[Adel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

I take it you are alive as well?

Who is left? Logic & DGB & Werebear?

[Adel]

here is our scumthread: http://www.quicktopic.com/41/H/tqSaxyB7hLWP

Oh okay.....so I was wrong all across the board. I would say kudos on getting my lynched but I think it was still more town laziness than any real case.

I think of a game's

tempo

(number of calender days it takes to lynch) and

pace

(number of posts per day) as being discrete variables that can be manipulated to a player's advantage. When I noticed a lag during day 1, I spun up a theory that would get a lot of posts in reaction, and generate arguments that would make people's eyes bleed. A demoralized town quickly becomes an apathetic town, and that is a great environment to get away with lurking in.

If you are playing skilled opponents, consider convincing them to only use their "D" game; get them to leave their "A" game at home.

Just tell us who they were, please.

And, no offense, but there is no such thing as balance when there's just vanilla townies and scum. The town was completely blind the whole game. Even if there were only TWO scum, they still would have come out of this without any of theirs being lynched. Three is ridiculous, it's a number I'd expect with investigative roles.

And.... just because you have the ability to do something, and are told it's your job, doesn't mean you HAVE TO DO IT.

DrippingGoofball, I don't understand your statement. I was town. You (supposedly) are town. Why was "lynch werebear" a goal for you? Part of the reason Axelrod, our local vigilante, decided to kill me was because of you. Thus allowing the scum to win.

Sounds like sour grapes from a lazy player. Your lack of interest in the game made it much easier to win. I hate playing with people when I get the sense that they can't be bothered to pay attention to the game. I take mafia seriously, and winning against a town that contained you robs me of some of my satisfaction.

Mafia is a team game, especially when you are town. How on earth do you rationalize your playstyle as being something that helps towns win?

Do you even care if you win or lose a game?

If not my worst game ever, it's definitely in the top two.

In hindsight, having seen what went on behind the scenes, I can't fault the set-up at all, we lost this one fair and square, and I get to say I lost "most" because I killed two townies all by myself.

Killed Mathcam because he looked suitably scummy, I figured there was no Cop role that would be "clearing" him, and he was a very likely lynch target the next day anyway.

After that, realized that I would only be able to "miss" one more time before the game would be over, so I just held my shot trying to wait until I had the most possible information. Didn't matter. Ended up shooting Werebear last night for mainly the same reasons - if he wasn't scum, he was going to be lynched anyway, and we'd lose anyway.

Bad read on Logiticus early which I never got around to re-visiting. Also never got around to reviewing Adel (though it's hard to imagine I would have suddenly become certain she was scum from that). Every time I made a move towards Coron/Armlx, somthing else came up to distract me. I always think the people who attack me are scum. Character flaw.

Town definitely had some bad luck with Macros (apparently) being a complete idiot, and Glork just not getting himself involved in the game ever.

Seems like the biggest area of concern would be the scum and vig. targeting each other in the Night. What happens if the scum PM me to tell me I am dead

before

I have decided who to shoot at? What do I do then? Come back with "oh yeah, well, you're dead too, ha ha ha." I think not.

I sent in the hit on Werebear very quickly last night specifically to avoid any possible ethical dilemmas if the scum decided to go after me. Basically I was trying to put the dilemma on them - if I do hit a scum and tell him he's dead, does he tell his fellow scum, and/or do they retaliate, or try to just kill the person they think they would have killed anyway assuming they didn't know who the vig. was.

@Werebear: Adel, Logiticus, Armlx were the scum

I was getting worried there towards the end. If you had just one more day , I'm pretty sure we would've fallen like a house of cards.

Ouch! It hurt to lose this one, but I know I played poorly.

Well done scum.

I knew it was Adel when nonny came up town.

how?

Adel, you're a pretty scary player.

I love to hear that. Thanks!

I was really terrible when I stated playing. I lost 7 out of my first 10 games.

And I never really suspected armlx, you're rather scary too. Least I was right about logic, but well played to you too, and kudos to your scum partners for never letting a bandwagon on you get rolling, and never appearing to protect you in any way.

I put a lot of thought into this game. When I got my role PM, I knew I would have to play my heart out to win. I probably paid close attention to this game more consistently than any other game I've played recently, and thanks to this game I've now won nine out of my last ten games.


My goals for this game:
1. Win, without any of the townies feeling cheated.
2. Win by as large of a margin as possible.
3. Win without apology.

It was a pleasure playing all of you in this unusual game!

@mod:

ha!

could you post some of your notes about the set-up? How did you think things could go bad, or get ugly? What is your analysis of how your experiment worked out?

[Adel]

Yeah, vanilla. Fuck you whoever killed me N0.

Thanks.

you are welcome

[Adel]

I am more proud of this win than any other, and I've won 9 out of my last 10 games, and 4 out of my last 5 as scum. The players in this game, including replacements, were all strong players.

remember the sign-up thread?

Wow@player list.

Next game I run I'm gonna have all these requirements and be all mysterious like and see what happens ^_^.

I'm going to have to /out on this one, even though it saddens me that I will be missing out on Phoebus, Macros, raj, math, Pooky, Coron, Goofy and Glork.

*whimpers*

i wish there was an "awesome game". and the 30 most awesome people on the site could play. i feel like just 14 of us isnt enough.

who expected the scum to win with no deaths?