Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm not even sure what a "Meta" game is. So, no, I guess.

But based on the title of the game, we'll obviously have three scum, a cop, and a doc, because that's normal. Clearly.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote: KingPin.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

My vote was 90 percent irony and 10 percent based on kingpin's overreaction.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't have a post restriction of any kind. I was just gone for the weekend. I don't find stoofer's mostly random vote suspicious in the slightest. I found kingpin's response to be somewhat offsetting, but not that bad.

Mneme: Serious or sarcastic? I honestly can't tell, and if you're serious, then I really disagree with you.

Anyway, I agree that primate's double vote is a more interesting point to discuss, and I'm not sure I like him giving his vote away. At this stage of the game, it might not matter that much, but it does feel like he's trying to please the crowd a bit.

So,

Unvote, vote primate.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

And I think he knows it. I think his repeated “vote me out now”s are a white flag he’s waving to his fellow mafia to warn them not to get caught up in a futile defense.

A white flag with two votes? That seems like a stretch, or stoofer seriously jumping the gun.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I agree with DOTS. Feel much more comfortable with the primate wagon.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Seems to me that this "lie" wouldn't have much benefit for scum. Did anyone really think that kingpin was in some kind of danger of being lynched after that vote?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Erm, I was responding to kingpin's fairly obvious overreaction to voting without explanation by. . . voting without explanation. Hence the 90 percent irony. And no, I would not have acted (as town), as primate has, so I'm voting for him.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

What mathcam said about stoofer matches my thought process. What benefit does stooferscum derive from lying about his reasoning Day 1? Unless you truly think that stoofer was, as scum, incapable of coming up with a good reason for a random vote. . . seems like a nulltell to me.

But I see primate, as scum, as attempting to look good for the town by proxying his vote, when in reality he can un-proxy it at will, so it costs him nothing while gaining himself townie points as scum. That's certainly not a surefire case, but its the best I see so far.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Wait a second. You’re giving Stoofer a pass for (1) lying, (2) misrepresenting another player’s actions, and (3) putting a player at lynch-1 without warning. And you’re instead voting Primate, for… what? Doing something that the town might think good?

I might have a problem with the L-1 without warning. But the first two, yes. May as well just read mathcam's post, but I'll add on: do you think scum are more likely to be inattentive than town?

And yes, I'm voting primate for doing something that the town might think good, that doesn't actually do the town much good. That seems to me like something scum might absolutely do.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I do not understand why so many people are treating Stoofer so leniently when there are no explanations for his actions as town.

There's no explanation for his actions as scum, either--therefore, he was acting irrationally, or sloppy, and I don't see why scum would be more likely to be sloppy than town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Stoofer: I see what you're saying about emptyger and mneme both being scum, but I don't see how it follows that one of them must be.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You didn't use the word must, but having one's probabilities at 48/52 and the other at 52/48 seems to imply that that's what you are thinking.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

And that seems like a big jump to conclusions. Isn't it quite possible that they're both town?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well of course it is possible! The whole point about this game is you give your thoughts/opinions; and my thought/opinion is that one of them is Scum. Of course I don't know if I am right. That's the thing about Mafia, you don't know who the Scum are!

I feel like we're talking past each other here. I also, generally, agree with DOTS' post above. Particularly the part about primate.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Do you really think Stoof was just kidding around?

Yes.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Dammit, I have to stop doing that.

Do you really think Stoof was just kidding around?

The answer still being yes.

But anyway, to answer emptyger, 28 sounds serious, but it sounds like motivations I can completely understand and therefore don't have a problem with.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I read the thread and came to the conclusion that 20 was a vote one jot above random, whereas 28 is a serious response to kingpin's 27.

How can you think Stoof is being serious in post 20?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Maybe so, but again, a "page 1 lurker vote" has no particular benefit to scum, so the fact that he did make a mistake isn't a scumtell.

Then there's all that stuff I said about Primate's original justification for giving his vote away having nothing to do with being informative, but to keep Emp on the site. This, I find most telling, especially in light of the lengths he's gone to trying to sell the "informative" angle.

Speaking of people whose motivations for voting have shifted. . . primate is still scummy. And absent, apparently.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I also do not want to modkill primate. I would be quite happy lynching him.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Emptyger: Isn't this post by massive precisely the same type of hedging mathcam was engaging in?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't think it's fair to call me hedging when I'm clearly on one of the bandwagons.

I agree. . . that was intended as a point against emptyger, actually. Perhaps I was a tad too subtle.

Unvote, vote emptyger.

I find primate's claim eminently believable, and emptyger's play has been making me feel off, particularly the attack on mathcam.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unvote.

Emptyger's mass claim proposal makes perfect sense. Assuming we can actually get people to support it, do we go in random order? I've always liked starting with one person at random, and then having them pick the next (scummiest) player. Or we could have primate pick the next person to claim, since he already has.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I have a night action that potentially explains primate's night explanation, and as I doubt primate could have known that, I unvoted.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Cam is right. I have a night action that potentially (I do need to stress potentially) explain primate's explanation of why he targeted emptyger. So I buy his power claim, at least. He could, of course, be scum still, which is why I support massclaim. Since we can't be certain what roles are pro-town and what roles are scum, we may as well get power claims out. Judging by what has been claimed, I think night actions are liable to be highly confirmable.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Erm, I have a potential explanation for why primate targeted emptyger to not get targeted by anyone, but emptyger still ended up without a vote.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN: What does the town have to provide to you in order for you to completely clarify what you are claiming / saying? Because you seem to be willing to hint about it an awful lot without any specifics. You also seem to expect the town to act based upon your hints.

I would, as I've stated, support a massclaim, and under those circumstances, I'd gladly claim my precise role.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I doubt whether its pro-town, mostly. The claim itself is believable enough, but considering the game, like stoofer, I don't think it has much bearing on whether or not he's town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I expected to lynch primate, but unvoted him?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You expected the TOWN to lynch Primate.

So, my plan was:

Primate claims.

I say, "I have information that may clear primate," and unvote.

Town says, "fuck you, tsn" and lynches him anyway?

That's a terrible plan.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Actually, TSN's waffled more than that. TSN has said he has info that -might- explain Primate's night action -- not info that actually does.

I haven't waffled at all. I have information that may clear primate, depending on the exact nature of the setup.

I’ve addressed this elsewhere- see my recent posts to Fonz and KingPin. The “laundry list” being given will be useless. And regardless of whether there is a massclaim, the town should not be blind to the possibility of safeclaims.

Exactly. I'm making a couple of assumptions here:

A. The town is comprised mostly of power roles.

B. The nature of the roles is not necessarily indicative of alignment. Or, at least, pro-town roles are not necessarily indicative of pro-townness. Mine isn't, particularly. Primate's isn't. Greasy spot's wasn't.

The two scenarios are, then: Mafia have power roles as well that are not necessarily indicative of their alignment, in which case, we know and can monitor people's power roles.

Alternately, they don't. In which case the mafia will conspicuously not have roles, or will be forced to make them up.

So we should massclaim. And primate, since he's already claimed, should pick his most anti-town person to claim. And we should continue along those lines.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In a badly designed game, a D1 massclaim can prove to be a breaking strategy -- but it's still not all that much fun to see all the magic too early, and usually, "BW-till-claim, then evaluate claim" is the right approach to achieving said massclaim anyway.

I'm not anticipating it being breaking. I'm anticipating it being useful.

In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game.

Huh? I was against Primate (but voting Stoofer) until TSN came forward, and am still against Primate, but wih TSN would give me something useful. I don't consider TSN more suspicious than Primate is -- but I do consider what he's given us so far completely useless in terms of proving Primate pro-town.

Making a full roleclaim wouldn't go any further toward proving primate pro-town, because even if it would absolutely prove that primate was telling the truth about his role (and it wouldn't), we still wouldn't know what alignment that role is.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.

That definitely sounds like saying you oppose massclaim based on reasons beyond the game to me.

TSN: what are the odds that your action would have caused someone to be able to target Emptyger with an ability despite the redirection? Is this more of an 80% chance, or more of a 10% chance?

I don't have odds to give you. It depends on factors in the setup I don't know.

But I do have a question for you: I'm assuming you have a night action. If so, how do you select the one person you target?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote mneme.

Does anyone else see why mneme's response is wrong?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You're apparently going to be gone, but when you return:

Please describe the

precise

mechanism by which you use your ability.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN:
After Primate- I’m not necessary sure that what you are referring to in mneme’s is damning. Not that there aren’t other problems with it…

I think it might very well be, if our town is comprised almost completely of power roles. I'll be curious to see who gets it and who doesn't. Also, based on that, do you at least understand why I can't be sure if I was responsible for primate's power failure?

That's a good catch, also, about how mneme attacked me over my "protown" defense.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

1. Backed off on his defense of Primate and refused to make it useful, as well as refusing to tie his alignment to Primate's in any even vague fashion.

I don't know how many ways I can say it: I can't be sure that I affected primate in any manner. Also, initially I thought, "well, if I can corroborate primate's claim, he must be town." But then all the discussion regarding massclaim and how role may not relate to alignment changed my conclusion on that. So no, I can't prove primate's alignment. I have relevant information, but not enough setup knowledge to be certain precisely what it means.

2. Deliberately misrepresented my position (re massclaims) for rhetorical purposes. Including, at several points, lying. "In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game." er, what?

Well, when you use a word like "regardless," that sort of implies that your empirical objections are not the primary reason for you objecting to massclaim. At the very least, you're coming from a biased position.

3. Asked his ridiculous leading question which seemed intended to elicit a half-claim for no reason.

Shrug. It could only be good once. Why not ask it? If everyone gets it, well, then no harm done, but if some people don't. . .

This sounds like you want a role claim from mneme. What?

Not at all. Well, I mean, I do, because I think we should massclaim, but I wasn't asking for it in the context of that question.

As for the rest of that: Considering how many targets there may have been last night, the fact that emptyger and primate were targeted multiple times is hardly surprising. I'm sure a lot of people were targeted with effects that are slightly less noticeable and haven't been claimed, because the discussion has centered around primate.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The problem is, the potential to have roles be altered in unknown ways is so large it is, imo, going to prove nearly-impossible to tell what information our power roles have actually provided, unless we have a situation in which we can tell what exactly our power roles are doing to each other, which means massclaim.

Massive's case on me involved some sort of calculated plot in which I half-supported primate while hoping that everyone else would still lynch him. I'm still not entirely clear on how that would work. . . do you feel the same way about emptyger, massive?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You're right: Initially, I thought, "I can possibly clear primate, therefore he is probably telling the truth." Then, I realized, after all the discussion, that whether or not he is telling the truth about his ability (and he probably is), he still may very well be scum.

At least you're supporting the massclaim. That's good.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I believe it currently stands:

Me, emptyger, massive for claim

Mneme, kingpin, mathcam, johoohno against.

I don't believe anyone else has come out conclusively, although I could be wrong. If two more people say they're opposed to it, I'll drop it for today.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Exactly. Let them lie. With the amount of alteration, blocking, so on, lying well is going to be very difficult.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Why are you voting for mneme?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't really see the case on kingpin. I may say "player x is scummy" day 1, and I may also say, "if I am wrong about player x being scum, then player y's interactions with player x are scummy." Particularly on day 1, when I think you have to be kidding yourself a little to be certain, I don't have a problem with that.

Anyway, mneme: You're not interested in dropping the misinterpretation thing.

Let me define the word regardless for you:

1. having or showing no regard; heedless; unmindful (often fol. by of).
–adverb
2. without concern as to advice, warning, hardship, etc.; anyway: I must make the decision regardless.
—Idiom
3. regardless of, in spite of; without regard for: They'll do it regardless of the cost.

So, when you say, "Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims. "

That means, "(without regard for) for my in-game reasons,

it has nothing to do with judgement within a game

, I just don't like D1 massclaims."

How can I have thought your primary reason for not supporting the massclaim had nothing to do with in-game reasons when that's exactly what you said?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No, it wasn't ad hominem. Did I say, "mneme is stupid for opposing day massclaims?" No, I said, "mneme opposes massclaims for meta reasons," which was, in light of what you said, pretty accurate.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

And, for that matter, even if it was, that wasn't what you've been saying. You've been screaming "misinterpreted! misinterpreted!" for all to hear.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Attacking the person, not the argument. I wasn't making any kind of a personal attack.

I was

interpreting

your statement, y'know, when you said "it has nothing to do with in-game reasons," as saying your argument

has nothing to do with in-game reasons.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Consider, hypothetically, if I were voting for stoofer: "regardless, it has nothing to do with in-game reasons, I don't like stoofer." I have to think someone would say something about that.

I'll concede that you might have meant something different than what I thought you meant if you'll concede that I wasn't somehow intentionally trying to twist your words.

Emptyger's claim made sense when I first read it, but I'm sort of souring on it. Or, at least, I'm souring on it making you scummy. You're still wrong about it me being scum, and you aren't going to convince me that any additional claim would be at all beneficial, except, of course, in the context of a massclaim, which would be a good idea.

Now, anyway, to respond to whatever direct arguments you made against massclaim back in the day:

A well designed game doesn't favor town in a too-early massclaim, because the scum, with extra info, can pick out info they find useful and ignore the rest, whereas the town cannot pick out mafia claims from town claims.

I don't think its going to break the game, and I don't think (although I'd be pleasantly surprised) if it reveals scum. The problem is, judging by the set-up, its going to be impossible to determine whether claims are true or not, because clearly just about anything is going to be feasible. Having all the role information out in the open, with a lot of roles that are likely to be confirmable, while it might benefit scum in deciding who to kill, is likely to benefit us in being able to confirm night activities. (do you really think it likely that we have more valuable town roles like a cop?) Let mafia decide between killing a role switcher or a, um, whatever primate is (a reverse bus driver?).

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

If you had had information that you felt could clear Primate (or heck, Stoofer, since those were the two big bandwagons), would you have come forward? Would you have done so if you were unsure of your information and felt that it would make no difference?

So, just because I couldn't be sure my role prevented primate's ability from working, means I should have stayed silent? Is that what

you're

saying? If so, why?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Which is more or less how I feel about you at this point.

Anyway, massive: I had relevant, if inconclusive, information. I suppose I did distract the town from lynching primate. Do you think that was a mistake?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, and

Unvote.

Oops.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN: That's an impossible question to answer. You didn't reveal any information. You didn't, necessarily, contribute to the town NOT lynching Primate. It's hard to imagine what your goal was, so it's impossible to judge if you failed in that regard.

Way to dodge the question. We were discussing the likelihood of the accuracy of his claim, and it was notable that part of it didn't make sense, and I had information that potentially cleared that up. I think it would have been tremendously anti-town to not reveal that information, especially while I didn't have to reveal anything else.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Johoohno
DOTS
Primate (I guess)

Moving past mneme, johoohno has been coasting through the game. He's asking questions, but he hasn't come up with many conclusions. Seems to me that he's sliding through the day, and without another particularly good choice.

DOTS is useless/absent/kinda scummy. Rather see him replaced, but we could do worse.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

People that aren't on leading wagons (like me) should probably unvote, considering deadline rules.

So,

Unvote.

Continue to consider me voting johoohno, but its clear no one else is interested in pursuing him.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You weren't voting before you know ...

Heh, I guess I didn't vote you. I meant to when I gave that list.

And I will hammer if necessary.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

DotS' absence is more anti-town than primate, in my opinion. Primate is just gone, DotS is actively lurking.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN:
Will you definitely be able to cast the lynching vote before deadline?

I don't know why I wouldn't be able to. I'd cast it tomorrow night, like stoofer or whoever suggested.

That is to say, I will definitely be able to log on tomorrow night. I suppose I can't count out being fucked with in-game, but that seems unlikely.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I agree with stoofer, calling DotS definitely innocent based on that is a stretch.

In the games I've played, anyway, scum or town, role pms have been black.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The point is, without collective action, it’s going to be up to individual discretion. And as much as you may dislike it, there will certainly be situations in which limited revelation is best. If you want to do something about it, don’t attack the player- you won’t get anywhere, because you are substituting your discretion (when you have limited knowledge of the situation) for that player’s. You have to get collective support.

I would be in favor of a better-late-than-never massclaim.

This. Does one of the more vocal advocates against massclaim flipping scum change anyone else's mind?

Also,

Vote johoohno.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, yeah. That. Sorry.

Right: Does mneme being scum and being against massclaim change anyone's mind? We have four in favor right now by my count.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Both Johoohno and stoofer seem to be pretty cautiously feeling out wagons, and I don't like it at all. My vote is going to stay on johoohno, but stoofer's starting to look quite a bit worse today.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't get the target-claim thing either.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The advantage of a targetclaim is to prevent potentially valuable knowledge from being lost in nightkills between now and a future when nightactions get straightened out.

Ah, I see. I guess that's preferable to no-claim.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Regarding stoofer's claim: Why are, after agreeing that we couldn't trust role information to relate to alignment, immediately trying to tie stoofer's alignment to his role claim?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I admit that there's some irony in this, especially since I supported your going early explicitly for the purpose of speeding up the process. It would be a little silly, however, for those of us who find Jo particularly scummy to let his absence play to his advantage by letting him go later in the list than we had all agreed upon.

Exactly. Can we get some

Prod: johoohno

action?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Stoofer, with primate backing up.

Johoohno, with DOTS backing up.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

How certain are you of this? TSN, how certain are you of this? Joohoooohn, what have you to say?

I can't be sure, but if massive's role is to give out votes, then that seems like a pretty solid case.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, that's embarrassing.

Unless someone believes there is a worthwhile benefit in putting them in, I think we're better off not.

I dunno, my tendency is when given the ability to do something, unless I can see a good reason not to, may as well keep doing it. Hopefully we will be able to figure out what those choices do.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I feel like I'm sort of just waiting on the inevitable massclaim.

I don't really like DoTS' play today. He's working hard to look protown without really doing much.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Depends on how you define worthwhile. You haven't posted anything today that makes me feel that you're protown.

Your night actions don't line up with your day actions, and your continued refusal to claim doesn't make me think much better of you either.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'll be out of town until the 7th.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I think I believe DoTS. And do not believe mathcam. The rolegiver/restorer role, while believable considering mneme has been killed. . . well, how hard a game was mneme expected to have? A rolekiller who has someone running around restoring all of their night choices? That seems like an impossible task.

Unvote, vote mathcam.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I still think mathcam is scum. I don't find his role believable, and kingpin's right, one of DOTS or mathcam almost has to be scum. I think mathcam is more likely.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Everyone: What is so freaking unbelievable about my role? I'd like to know so that next time I can make up a believable fakeclaim instead of telling you my real role.

It just seems like it would make the game nearly impossible for mneme to win. That's why I don't believe it, anyway.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't think Stoofer claimed truthfully. In fact, I think his exact claim was vanilla town. I think he is a scum stripped of power.

I was thinking the same thing, which is partly why stoofer would be my second choice for lynch.

I'm working overtime this week, and don't have a lot of time for mafia, so whether or not its my turn to claim, I'll go ahead and claim roleblocker.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Make it so, johoohno.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't mind claiming first, especially as I targeted stoofer, who doesn't have to worry about making a target claim.

Johoohno was my backup.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Of making the kill, yeah. It doesn't clear you altogether.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I cannot target myself. Its certainly odd that johoohno is saying that he can. Considering that, on top of emptyger's logic, I'd be willing to pursue a johoohno lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Motive: roleblocked me N1 and again N2 it seems (a townie target switcher is lethal to have in game if you're scum). His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.

I was targeting people I thought likely to be mafia. If I were interested in targeting people based on problematic night abilities, I'd have put you first, or maybe DoTS, as opposed to the vanilla townie.

I'm feeling the same way about the fonz. The problem is, of course, is that what he's doing is the protown play if he really is a one-shot mirror, but it would also be very convenient for him as scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Possibly stoofer, as the vanilla townie, cannot be affected by those sort of abilities?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Discounting night actions and such, I'd say:
1. Johoohno
2. Stoofer
3. Fonz

But I'd say Fonz's night action is the least believable, so barring emptyger's revelation as to why johoohno is guaranteed mafia, I'd switch that to:

1. Fonz
2. Johoohno
3. Stoofer

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I feel the same way. So, just to repeat, johoohno: Why me and DoTS?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

But why is that list in that specific order? (assuming that list were definitive, which it isn't.)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN is kind of lurking a lot, keeping a low profile to fly under the radar. And that is also scummy. And for that (and I can't remeber him ever sticking out his neck, only following others around) I've had him on my list for quite some time.

The massclaim debate? Being after mathcam pretty well from the beginning of day 2?

I take issue with your assertion. What have

you

done to stick your neck out?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I spent first day in low profile, and has pretty much been in the heat for opinions or choices right from the start of D2.

Having heat placed on you is hardly the same as sticking your neck out.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Because obviously if you are mafia with a role, you would have other mafia without roles do the killing, or you can kill and utilize your power. That's a really weak response.

Vote johoohno.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Aw snap?

Weak case or no, your defense isn't actually a response to the points of the case, its a separate reason not to vote for you that doesn't hold water.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Furthermore, TSN even thinks that the mafia can both use an ability and nightkill. I disagree. That would be extremely powerful and pretty unbalanced. We haven't seen any evidence of that in the game either, there has always been players that can't really show what they've done last night (that would be those on my scum list).

In the quote above it sounds as if TSN thinks the case on me might be a weak one, but despite that he has put me at L-2. Strange play I'd say.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that

regardless

(there's that word again) of the strength of the case, your defense didn't defend against it. I think the case was reasonably strong, and your weak defense and now misrepresentation is making me feel better and better about it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN lied This would lead me to believe that he actually targeted someone else primarily (and me as a back-up). Perhaps he targeted Massive, and then killed him. But his secondary wasn't killed, only targeted. That would add up, but demands that extra finesse to how night abilities work.

Even if I lied, that fails to provide an explanation as to why you were voteblocked and stoofer was not. Say I targeted someone else (not stoofer). Why wasn't that person voteblocked? If I targeted massive with a nightkill, why wasn't that switched?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I still prefer johoohno, but would be willing to hammer fonz at deadline.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Shit, I thought the deadline was Pacific time. Glad you were on top of it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Stoofer first, johoohno second.

This information may change today's lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh yes, emptyger and kingpin should also claim, even though their targets are fairly obvious. They may have been messed with, after all.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I think its pretty apparent that scum is now one of jo or stoof. If jo is telling the truth, then I may have blocked jo, which would have prevented the mafia kill, made by him. This makes me lean toward johoohno.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN, could you reconfirm your Night 3 choices?

Stoofer first, johoohno second.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I prefer johoohno today. . . but I'd say its pretty evident that the scum is one of johoohno/stoofer.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So... why aren't we voting for either? I mean, if there's reason to hesitate, okay, but then we should be talking about that. But it seems we're all in consensus, so what are we waiting for?

I, at least, was waiting for stoofer's input.

@everyone: who's likely scum if both Jo and Stoof are lynched and turns up to be town (just preparing for the worst).

Kingpin? This is a pretty unlikely scenario.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I also think johoohno is the better first lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

That ties up a loose end.

Johoohno's at L-1. Anyone have any good reason not to hammer?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well. That's a really good point. Probably enough to get me to change my order.

Massive, comments?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'd guessed earlier that stoofer had been rolekilled, even though he hadn't explicitly said so, so that didn't particularly surprise me. I had not noticed (or more accurately, did not recall) that he had an opportunity to catch mathcam lying if he was mneme's target. And it does sound to me like massive is claiming being targeted Night 1 (that is, the second night), as opposed to Night 0, with pointing out that stoofer spent most of day 1 implying that he had an ability.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Like everyone else, there's a huge drop-off after you and massive/stoofer. Kingpin's been playing a good pro-town game, but his role is, technically, detrimental to town, and it seems really unlikely that something as powerful as the doubler would be put in the hands of scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Sweet. Chalk one up for the pro-massclaim group, I suppose.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN:
What I said in-thread represented only a fraction of the second-guessing your non-lynch of Fonz made me go through. That’s normally a lynchable offense, but you had played solidly until then, there was enough evidence that it was just a fluke. Thanks for playing so well everyplace else, otherwise this might have been tricky. Well done.

Heh, thanks. It really was an honest mistake, and I felt

stupid.

This game was a blast, in no small part because only one person had to be replaced. That was great. And we won. Which is cool. I also do want to see if mathcam really was a role restorer, etc.