Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[the silent speaker]

Vote count:

No one has voted yet.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Can any player target themselves? (Besides Jo's claim that he can). Emp stated that he cannot. I cannot.

I can redirect an action to myself. I can't redirect my own action, though.

I give up on figuring last night out.

Vote: The Fonz

based on the irregularity of his claim and his flip on Primate in Day 1.

I'm going to read him and Johoohno as well as mathcam.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Stoofer, can you submit targets?

[Mr Stoofer]

Nothing in my role PM says I can or should submit targets.

[KingPin]

Could everyone list their scummiest players?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Discounting night actions and such, I'd say:
1. Johoohno
2. Stoofer
3. Fonz

But I'd say Fonz's night action is the least believable, so barring emptyger's revelation as to why johoohno is guaranteed mafia, I'd switch that to:

1. Fonz
2. Johoohno
3. Stoofer

[Johoohno]

My list:

As I said in post 736 I see four people as valid lynch victims today, and below is the order in scummyness according to me (most scummy first):
1. TSN
2. DotS
3. EmpTyger
4. The Fonz

I am not really sure on number 3 and 4 though, thay could be tied or even in reversed order because it might be so that I have a problem with EmpTyger's style, and that I liked The Fonz a bit better after his taking my side (or at least looking at tha cases soberly) in post 719 and 727.

[KingPin]

Bump.

Really? Nobody has anything else to say?

I am ready to vote for The Fonz. He is my top suspect today.

[The Fonz]

Busy today, expect me to post something good this weekend.

[EmpTyger]

Sorry, all- the library changed its summer hours in AUgust, so it's been even harder for me to get Internet access. I'm trying to do a reread, but it's hard to do with only quick grabs of access- I'm only on p.7.

I'm not ready to post a list of suspicions until I complete the reread, and certainly not ready to vote yet.

I'm trying to figure out the bigger picture with nightactions. Part of me thinks that I was more right than I knew when I was earlier arguing that nightactions are useless.

---

About Johoohno:
I don't have any special knowledge (aside from the same prohibition of self-targeting which KingPin, TSN, and massive also have). I'm just deducing based on what Johoohno's saying.

1) If Johoohno could self-target that way: then he's saying he gets to use his ability twice if he self-targets.
(If he targets X and Johoohno, X targets Y, and Y targets Z:
He switches it so that X targets Johoohno, Johoohno targets X and Y.
But then his ability triggers again, so that X targets Z, Y targets Johoohno. This is absurd.)

2) The mod clearly banned self-targeting in most cases.
So let's also consider the 2 that might have allowed partial self-targeting: DotS, and potentially Primate.
I can see DotS forcing someone else to target DotS. But he is forbidden from forcing himself to target someone else.
I can see Primate forcing someone else to target Primate. But he is forbidden from forcing himself to target someone else.
I can even see Johoohno forcing someone else to target Johoohno.

But then why wouldn't he have the restriction

? Instead, he is claiming that he is paradoxically allowed to affect himself. Then why would this be forbidden in everyone else?

In Johoohno's case, the restriction is pointless, since his ability is symmetric. It shouldn't make any difference whether he targets X & Y or Y & X. So why is he claiming that he could target Johoohno & EmpTyger, but not EmpTyger & Johoohno?

The only reason that kind of restriction would have a point is if he lied about his ability.

3) Moreover- even if his ability does this- why would a protown Johoohno choose to use it this way? It doesn't match the claimed motivation for his primary targets- to have trackable data. Nor would it allow him to interfere with mafia: if he targets mafia, and if his ability works the way he claims it does, instead of simply messing with mafia, he's messing with mafia's target, and the target's target- one of which has to be town!

---

KingPin:

<snip>
My theory is this for mneme: He has an ability to strip the players of their roles. Then he has the ability to kill a player by targeting someone without a role.
<snip>

2 big problems:
1) A SK's win condition is hard enough when they have to target everyone once. For them to need to target everyone *twice*...?
2) We don't have a complete explanation for N3 assuming that there are 2 mafia nightactions. If we assume that mneme's vanillafication targets N1 and N2 were {mathcam, Mafia X} then there is only 1 mafia nightaction last night- and I don't see any way for that to allow all that happened.

Incidentally, I'm not making too much of mathcam's insistence about his role, for reasons that I think are better to explain in postgame.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

• The mod has also called this game a Meta, which to me, seems as an experiment on odd roles in odd constellations (perhaps he enjoys sitting in the end of each night phase trying to create order in the chaos we send him?). Is me being able to self target that much more strange than a single one-shot power in a power infested game, a role duplicator (who himself all the time makes sure he has put up a back-up choice), a vanilla who knows he is the only one or serial role killer?
  
• It seems to me that you want me to be scum now, and try to make me one instead of looking at the information in total. (for instance, I haven't heard you comment on my post 736 or 756, which I actually expected you to scrutinize - but perhaps that didn't fit in with your view of me being scum?).
  
• You not seeing a reason for me to target the way I do, doesn't by any means indicate that there isn't a pro-town reason to do that. I only shows you haven't looked hard enough. I can give the town a reason, but I don't think it is wise since scum will get to know it too (but of course, if there is a large enough group of players who wants me to explain my target choices, I'll do just that).

Sadly, I don't have a vote today. If I had I would agree on voting as I've indicated in my scum list in above mentioned posts (1. TSN, 2. DotS, 3. EmpTyger & 4. The Fonz - with the last two possibly in reversed order, still not certain enough of it).

[KingPin]

Jo:
Please explain why you believe that TSN and DotS are your top two suspects. Details please.

This especially concerns me given the information from both players and their night choices. I just need you to give an argument with something more than you have already given.

Emp: I completely agree that there are definite questions regarding win conditions of mneme. However, this seems to be speculation though and not really an argument either way. Your second point is the screwy point for all of this. I think the information that we got from one or two of (fonz, stoofer, johoohno) is a lie. We need to press these guys. I believe we need to start with Fonz, but if the town wants Jo, I am good with that as well.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I feel the same way. So, just to repeat, johoohno: Why me and DoTS?

[Johoohno]

I take it both of you actually read post 736? However, I'll lay it out more clearly in a while if it's still obscure for you.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

But why is that list in that specific order? (assuming that list were definitive, which it isn't.)

[Johoohno]

DestroyeroftheSky
• Targeted Greasy Spot (who also died) night 1. Correct me if I’m wrong but (if he was telling the truth) he actually forced Primate to target Greasy Spot and, according to Primate’s description of his ability, that should leave Greasy Spot safe – making all targets bounce off him.
• If he is scum together with mathcam he could’ve tried to win town points N2 by “forcing” his scum buddy to kill mneme. It occurs to me now (this is pure speculation) that if mathcam lost his role N1 and somehow got to know that mneme was the engine behind that, it would make sense for him to want to rid that role, but perhaps he had even lost his ability to night kill, making him a perfect tool to increase his scum buddies trustworthyness by forcing mathcam to target mneme. (I know this speculation isn’t flawless, but there is something in it that appeals to me).
• Do we have ANY solid proof of DotS claimed ability?
• Furthermore, he kind of rings my scum bell with his summaries of the night actions. It is an easy way to win town points without actually adding any new information.

TheSweatpantsNinja
• We have proof of his role from N1 (I’ve marked the first night as N0 in my notes) where he wanted to roleblock me but I switched him with massive making him roleblock KingPin instead. Now the scummy part is that I see my role as quite useful for the town, and I suspect the mafia to see that as well. That would make them interested in me off. But since I’ve come out scummy they want to roleblock me and frame me in some way. I know this is a conspiracy theory, but I don’t find it farfetched.
• We also have the trouble of last night’s choices which doesn’t add up. TSN could easily be the one lying (once again to incriminate me).
• TSN is kind of lurking a lot, keeping a low profile to fly under the radar. And that is also scummy. And for that (and I can't remeber him ever sticking out his neck, only following others around) I've had him on my list for quite some time.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: Dont get confused on the order of my list it's stil: (1. TSN, 2. DotS, 3. EmpTyger & 4. The Fonz - with the last two possibly in reversed order, still not certain enough of it). The post above was made in alphabetcal order just because that is the order I've done my notes in.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Johoohno, why would I have bussed mathcam? Was he even a prime suspect at the end of Day 1?

[Johoohno]

Well (my speculation), if he had lost his role and perhaps even ability to night kill he would be useless and could then be sacrifieced and why not earn some extra town points in that process?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN is kind of lurking a lot, keeping a low profile to fly under the radar. And that is also scummy. And for that (and I can't remeber him ever sticking out his neck, only following others around) I've had him on my list for quite some time.

The massclaim debate? Being after mathcam pretty well from the beginning of day 2?

I take issue with your assertion. What have

you

done to stick your neck out?

[Johoohno]

@ TSN: Is that a serious question of yours? I spent first day in low profile, and has pretty much been in the heat for opinions or choices right from the start of D2.

[KingPin]

Busy today, expect me to post something good this weekend.

I had high expectations... but alas, I was let down. By this point, I would consider almost any response "good"!

Jo:
I do not agree with your reasoning with respect to DotS. There is just too much of a gambit to be had with that. DotS directed Primate to Greasy Spot and also Stoofer to Greasy Spot. Primate turned up innocent, but we do not know if scum lied about targets on N0 (or N1 if you must begin with the number 1). Which leaves the possibility that one of the other players "not targeting anyone" killed greasy spot.

DotS gets points, IMO, for voting a player he believed to be guilty from the start. He did this on D1 and D2. You stated that DotS was trying to earn town points by voting mathcam on D2. When everyone else in the game at that point was leaning to you and Stoofer, DotS went against the grain and voted mathcam. Wouldn't it make much more sense for DotS to just bus either Stoof or you? Instead he immediately votes against two of the more popular/easy votes and proceeds to lynch scum. To me, that screams town. Your conclusion regarding this is completely against the weight of the evidence presented and scummy, IMO.

[Johoohno]

I haven't had the time to do a reread, and my list is mainly based on who could have made last night's kill.

What is your feeling towards my other suspects?

I don't like it how quietly everything has become here now, not everyone has persented a list on their suspects. That is one thing that should be remedied:

present your scum lists please!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I spent first day in low profile, and has pretty much been in the heat for opinions or choices right from the start of D2.

Having heat placed on you is hardly the same as sticking your neck out.

[Johoohno]

I was pretty adamant on getting everyone to claim D2!