Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[EmpTyger]

Actually, you know what? I'm not infallible. Maybe I'm wrong, and you're right, and the Stoofer bandwagon *is* viable.

Unvote: Johoohno, vote: Mr Stoofer

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Johoohno's not going anywhere. That's 2 votes on Stoofer; he's now tied for the lead.

[massive]

I'm willing to go back to Stoofer. His "helpful" action from earlier today just reminded me I was voting for him yesterday.

vote Mr. Stoofer

[The Fonz]

Actually, you know what? I'm not infallible. Maybe I'm wrong, and you're right, and the Stoofer bandwagon *is* viable.

Unvote: Johoohno, vote: Mr Stoofer

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Johoohno's not going anywhere. That's 2 votes on Stoofer; he's now tied for the lead.

At the very least, it's worth kicking the tyres on the first-choice lynch, before settling for second best, yes?

[DestroyeroftheSky]

DOTS

: Did you purposefully misinterpret my post?

Actually, maybe a little. I thought I would boldly point out why it might be better off not talking about it, mostly based on the idea that the Rolekiller makes a player vanilla. If that's the case, mneme's victims announcing their vanilla-ness would only really help scum. I admit I could be completely wrong about what the role does anyway.

Basically, there's a difference between 'good enough for a first wagon' and 'good enough for a lynch.' Plus from prior experience with Primate, he felt sincere to me. And that Stoofer and his cronies were clearly setting him up as the counterwagon to the one true wagon.

Other than that, nothing much.

Primate's played this badly as town before?

Who do you think are Stoofer's cronies?

<snip>
For the record, I didn't think Fonz came across as overly town during Day 1. If I hadn't been so sure Primate was scum, I probably would have unvoted too, and I don't know if any other player voting him at the time felt as strongly about Primate as I did. In fact, I'm still uneasy about how Fonz's perception of Primate went from suspicious to so town over the course of the Day.
<snip>

…huh? I feel like I’m missing something here.

? The Fonz joined me in my early vote of Primate for the 'donation' of his vote. As the day went on, it seems like Fonz was pretty much convinced that Primate was town. Is that what was confusing you?

Emp, did you go ahead with your night targets as you said you would yesterday?

No, I did not lie to the town.
(Interesting that you’re asking this.)

Eh, was that a yes? (Sorry, unsure about the phrasing).

Am I allowed to ask why it's interesting that I asked?

@ everyone:

What do you think of mass target-claiming, as opposed to mass-everything claiming?

[mathcam]

I don't think there's much more to mneme's role than his role name implies. If I had to guess, I'd say he vanillafies players, winning when he's the only powerrole left.

Wouldn't that be the weakest SK ever known? Not only do they have to target every living player, they don't have the benefit of their target going away afterwards (which would usually help reduce the number of days they had to stay alive). Methinks there's something more to his role.

I can do a Stooferwagon. I think Jo has definitely been scummy today, but his last post (the whole "I started the day in a good mood" bit) struck me as fairly genuine.

I have no objection to a target claim.

Cam

[mathcam]

Actually, let me think about the target claim a little longer.

Cam

[Mr Stoofer]

Well the bandwagon on me saves me from having to think, since the only sensible thing to do now is

vote: Johoohno

to save my skin. That's L-1 or L-2, I think.

[massive]

mathcam has succinctly wrapped my thoughts about mneme's serial rolekiller role. It couldn't be as simple as "the target loses its powers." The win condition alone would be staggering to realize.

I'm having a little trouble figuring out what a target-claim is supposed to do exactly.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't get the target-claim thing either.

[KingPin]

I am finally back. Thanks to all those who bothered to read the V/LA thread.

After a quick skim:

1. Johoohno voting for more than one person, the second person not being in the top two of his scum list, is a bit scummy.

2. Stoofer wagon, I am all for this, as he was my second most suspicious yesterday.

3. Still against a mass-claim. I will think about the mass target claim. (identifying targets for each night). But I have a feeling that this would also give away too much info. Though, maybe more good info for the town. Like I said, I will think about it a bit longer. Starting a re-read tonight.

[KingPin]

Can we have a quick vote count.

[the silent speaker]

Vote count:

Johoohno: 3 (TheSweatpantsNinja, mathcam, Mr Stoofer)
Mr Stoofer: 3 (The Fonz, EmpTyger, massive)
DestroyerOfTheSky: 1 (Johoohno)
The Fonz: 1 (Johoohno)
mathcam: 1 (DestroyerOfTheSky)

Not voting

: KingPin

3 more votes for Johoohno or Mr Stoofer, 5+ for anyone else.

[EmpTyger]

The advantage of a targetclaim is to prevent potentially valuable knowledge from being lost in nightkills between now and a future when nightactions get straightened out. The disadvantages are the same as with the massfullclaim- except the mafia has a better chance to benefit more than the town (since they have a greater chance of deducing the full information anyhow). Moreover, this partial claim doesn’t significantly address the underlying issue of the unreliability of nightactions (which Primate’s innocence underscores), which was the primary reason I was advocating a massclaim in the first place.

---

Stoofer:

Well the bandwagon on me saves me from having to think, since the only sensible thing to do now is

vote: Johoohno

to save my skin. That's L-1 or L-2, I think.

So, you’re saying that it’s either Johoohno or yourself. Using that logic, doesn’t that mean that Johoohno has to vote you? And, Johoohno’s 2 votes are going to outweigh your 1.

Also, for the record, here were the protown things you might have done instead of playing WIFOM games:
1) Defend yourself
2) Make an argument on who mafia might be that the town could listen to tomorrow even if you were lynched today.
3) Claim fully.

I guess it was that important to you for Fonz to prove me wrong about your lynchability?

---

DotS:

<snip>
Primate's played this badly as town before?
<snip>

Forgive me, but LOL.

<snip>
For the record, I didn't think Fonz came across as overly town during Day 1. If I hadn't been so sure Primate was scum, I probably would have unvoted too, and I don't know if any other player voting him at the time felt as strongly about Primate as I did. In fact, I'm still uneasy about how Fonz's perception of Primate went from suspicious to so town over the course of the Day.
<snip>

…huh? I feel like I’m missing something here.

? The Fonz joined me in my early vote of Primate for the 'donation' of his vote. As the day went on, it seems like Fonz was pretty much convinced that Primate was town. Is that what was confusing you?

Um, but Primate *was* town. How is being sure that an innocent player is innocent worse than being sure that an innocent player is guilty? And even by your logic, how is the fact that Fonz grew less suspicious of Primate meaningful? I mean, you said that you were most suspicious of Priamte, and that if you were less suspicious you would have unvoted- so isn’t that consistent with Fonz’s actions?

<snip>
Am I allowed to ask why it's interesting that I asked?
<snip>

You’re trying to get me to confirm that I targeted *you*.

Btw, why mathcam?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The advantage of a targetclaim is to prevent potentially valuable knowledge from being lost in nightkills between now and a future when nightactions get straightened out.

Ah, I see. I guess that's preferable to no-claim.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

The advantage of a targetclaim is to prevent potentially valuable knowledge from being lost in nightkills between now and a future when nightactions get straightened out. The disadvantages are the same as with the massfullclaim- except the mafia has a better chance to benefit more than the town (since they have a greater chance of deducing the full information anyhow).

I'm not sure why target claiming would give scum more info. The way I see it, it puts them in a way trickier situation, since they'd have to firstly fake claim targets and secondly make them fit in with their eventual fake roleclaims. That's two ways to catch them out.

If we full claim, I guess the same could be said, but the disadvantage I see is that it may out more useful town roles.

Moreover, this partial claim doesn’t significantly address the underlying issue of the unreliability of nightactions (which Primate’s innocence underscores), which was the primary reason I was advocating a massclaim in the first place.

This is why I'm inclined to wait for the cardflip then let the target claims speak for themselves. Town who put the effort in could deduce certain things about a players possible role from who they targeted. Scum can do the same, and probably better, but at least this makes it that much harder for them.

Also, for the record, here were the protown things you might have done instead of playing WIFOM games:
1) Defend yourself
2) Make an argument on who mafia might be that the town could listen to tomorrow even if you were lynched today.
3) Claim fully.

I agree. Voting for Johoohno instead was weird.

<snip>
For the record, I didn't think Fonz came across as overly town during Day 1. If I hadn't been so sure Primate was scum, I probably would have unvoted too, and I don't know if any other player voting him at the time felt as strongly about Primate as I did. In fact, I'm still uneasy about how Fonz's perception of Primate went from suspicious to so town over the course of the Day.
<snip>

…huh? I feel like I’m missing something here.

? The Fonz joined me in my early vote of Primate for the 'donation' of his vote. As the day went on, it seems like Fonz was pretty much convinced that Primate was town. Is that what was confusing you?

Um, but Primate *was* town. How is being sure that an innocent player is innocent worse than being sure that an innocent player is guilty? And even by your logic, how is the fact that Fonz grew less suspicious of Primate meaningful? I mean, you said that you were most suspicious of Priamte, and that if you were less suspicious you would have unvoted- so isn’t that consistent with Fonz’s actions?

Yes, I guess so. My feeling at the time was that Fonz's change of opinion seems to happen too abruptly, like he'd decided Primate was town before he'd been given enough information to really make the call.

<snip>
Am I allowed to ask why it's interesting that I asked?
<snip>

You’re trying to get me to confirm that I targeted *you*.

Well, it's no secret that I'm interested in knowing who targeted who last night. Unless you think me asking tells you something new about me, I'm not sure what else is interesting. Yeah, I'm fishing here, but if you think it's not worth sharing, I hope there's a good reason for it.

Btw, why mathcam?

Night results.

[EmpTyger]

DotS:

<snip>

Moreover, this partial claim doesn’t significantly address the underlying issue of the unreliability of nightactions (which Primate’s innocence underscores), which was the primary reason I was advocating a massclaim in the first place.

This is why I'm inclined to wait for the cardflip then let the target claims speak for themselves. Town who put the effort in could deduce certain things about a players possible role from who they targeted. Scum can do the same, and probably better, but at least this makes it that much harder for them.
<snip>

So, if we’re waiting for rolereveals, what’s the point of voting mathcam based on a mightresult?

Nightactions are not reliable indicators of alignment in this game.

Any result is just as likely to indicate the exact opposite. Look at what happened with Primate, who was innocent despite being incriminated by nightaction. We still don’t know how I got an extra vote despite Primate’s redirecting me. How can any conclusion be accurately drawn about mathcam?.

If we did a masstargetclaim first, immediately followed by a massroleclaim, would that be acceptable to you?

[Mr Stoofer]

Alright, I'll accept the calls for a claim.

My role is

Townie

. But what's more, I am at present the only Townie in the game. Yes, that's right. my role PM specifically says that at present there are no other Townies in the game.

The phrasing is a little odd -- it includes a synonym for "at present". I didn't think very much of this when I first read my role PM, but when Joohonho suggested that mneme might have the ability to take people's roles away, I thought that that was an explanation for the wording of my role PM; and I though Joohonho was likely to be right. Having considered the subsequent discussion, mathcam's point in particular, I am not so sure.

[Mr Stoofer]

If I had to guess, I'd say the point of my role is to undermine the "Townie=non-confirmable whereas Power role=confirmable" meta.

[KingPin]

I have some thoughts regarding the roles. Specifically with the information so far. Has anyone ever played a game where all the members of the town were cops? I have, I cannot remember if that game was on this site or the GL. I remembered this last night and tried to find the game, however I failed miserably. I don't know if the game occurred prior to the great mafiascum.net crash. The point is, we all thought that we were the 'sane' cop, as that important information was not given to us. Turns out there was one sane cop some insane cops and some cops that got all scum results and some that got all town results.

Those night results were useless as so many cops coming up with so many different results and all arguing on D-1 that they had found scum ect. This is not the case here. Our results are not completely useless. Instead they just are not 100% reliable as all night results are. I insist that the only way your night results can be 100% reliable is to confirm your results with a lynch or someone else is able to confirm those results. That is still the case in this game.

The mass-claim in that game came almost as a reflex, since hey I am the town cop, how can you be the town cop. Or maybe it was called cops and mobbers (I'll look again) and we knew there were a lot of cops in the game without knowing if our results would be skewed one direction or another. I for the life of me cannot remember how the game concluded, but I think it was a town win. In short, mass target claiming may provide more information for the town than for scum. I believe this is a compromise that I can make. It will lock in targets, which can then be weighed against the role claims later (I am still not sold on full role reveal).

Can anyone give a reason for DoTS's results being off? I cannot.

[EmpTyger]

Nail in Stoofer’s coffin: if he were genuinely innocent, why would he blurt out that the mafia can’t claim vanilla safely, when we’re discussing doing a massclaim or a targetclaim today? Seriously, talk about waving a fakeclaim decided on overnight, rather than genuinely helping the town.

---

Here’s my massclaim consensus tally:
For: EmpTyger, Johoohno, TSN, massive
Against: Fonz
Targets only: DotS, KingPin
Reconsidering: mathcam
Hasn’t said but at this point opinion doesn’t matter: Stoofer

6-2 or 7-1 is a clear consensus to claim targets. I propose the following order:
Johoohno
mathcam
KingPin
massive
Fonz
DotS
TSN
[Stoofer and I have already gone]

Any objections/suggestions to the order?

---

KingPin:

<snip>
The mass-claim in that game came almost as a reflex, since hey I am the town cop, how can you be the town cop. Or maybe it was called cops and mobbers (I'll look again) and we knew there were a lot of cops in the game without knowing if our results would be skewed one direction or another. I for the life of me cannot remember how the game concluded, but I think it was a town win. In short, mass target claiming may provide more information for the town than for scum. I believe this is a compromise that I can make. It will lock in targets, which can then be weighed against the role claims later (I am still not sold on full role reveal).

The primary purpose of a massclaim here is not to trap the mafia in fakeclaims. (It’s certainly a potential fringe benefit. But if that were the only point, there’s no reason to not do it D1.) Instead, the point of a massclaim here is to untangle nightactions.

<snip>
Can anyone give a reason for DoTS's results being off? I cannot.

Can anyone give a reason for my losing my vote D1 despite Primate preventing anyone from targeting me N1? I cannot… but, it clearly happened.

[Mr Stoofer]

Nail in Stoofer’s coffin: if he were genuinely innocent, why would he blurt out that the mafia can’t claim vanilla safely, when we’re discussing doing a massclaim or a targetclaim today? Seriously, talk about waving a fakeclaim decided on overnight, rather than genuinely helping the town.

There is something wrong with you. If I am Scum, how would I know that "the mafia can't claim vanilla safely"?

Furthermore, your whole post is premised on the basis that it is indeed true that "mafia can't claim vanilla safely" -- i.e. I am telling the truth. In which case...

Actually, I think that by accepting the truth of what I have said you have made a slip-up. You have unconsciously revealed that you know I am telling the truth but yet are still trying to get me lynched.

unvote - vote: EmpTyger

[KingPin]

Nail in Stoofer’s coffin: if he were genuinely innocent, why would he blurt out that the mafia can’t claim vanilla safely, when we’re discussing doing a massclaim or a targetclaim today? Seriously, talk about waving a fakeclaim decided on overnight, rather than genuinely helping the town.

You know there is one way to sort this out, lynch him. On the other hand, suppose he is telling the truth. I agree that Stoofer has played badly, very badly. I do not know whether to doubt his claim or believe it. It would seem to fit with certain other game aspects. And, if lynching him proves that all other players have roles, it is a small plus for the town. However, if we lynch him, assuming a 3 person mafia, the town is then thrown into a very tight place.

Can anyone give a reason for my losing my vote D1 despite Primate preventing anyone from targeting me N1? I cannot… but, it clearly happened.

I cannot, with certainty give you firsthand knowledge. However, I think I know the mechanics behind how you lost a vote.

I don't care about the order, I'll go first if you'd like. I would like to see Fonz and Mathcam nearer to the top, though.

[massive]

I'd prefer going later if no one has any objections; my role is immediately provable.

The WIFOM answer to Stoofer's claim is definitely that it's an easy-to-fake claim, now knowing that not only is the serial "killer" dead (so a fake claim won't randomly turn up dead) but also nicely ties in to the known information. But it's even more WIFOM to assume that the Mafia, working in conjunction, came up with fake claims for all of them that including ONE townie.

[Mr Stoofer]

What do people think of the fact that EmpTyger put forward a "nail in Stoofer's coffin" which assumes that what I said was true? Does no-one else see this as a Scum-slip?

[KingPin]

Stoofer: I understand what you are saying. It also seems that he

really

believes that you are scum. Is his logic here a scum tell? Possibly. I really don't think his "nail in the coffin" is that. I find your claim to be somewhat compelling considering the info known right now. The biggest problem that I have with your claim is that you have played so badly. You got caught in a lie and now you have to carry that forward. Once you have lied, any 'claim' that you make is going to be questioned more so than if you hadn't lied. Which is where Emp is coming from, IMO.

Just so I am clear, we are not providing full role claims (I am still against it). If there are no objections I will state my "targets" before I leave from work today. Mainly because I don't normally post over the weekend.