Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[EmpTyger]

I think that the mafia are entirely within {Stoofer, Johoohno, Fonz}- I still don’t see anyone else as likely. I will vote for whichever of those 3 are able to be lynched- I prefer Johoohno or Stoofer, but will rather the safety play of Fonz over a no-lynch. I realize that I have not set the best example lately, but I urge the town to consider the deadline. Only a vote of 3-0 (with 4 not voting) or 3-1 (with 3 not voting) will lynch then.

---

KingPin:

<snip>
Emp, Could you explain why you believe Jo lied about his night choices? You have made some bald statements today regarding him, have been asked for support, but have been silent regarding those requests.
<snip>

Initially, it was because of the self-targeting- it’s inconsistent and illogical. This discrepancy is not in and of itself a reason to lynch- there are inconsistencies with Johoohno, Stoofer, and Fonz’s claims, but at most 2 of them can be guilty. However Johoohno has antitown play to back it up. He didn’t push the massclaim until after the mafia got a chance to coordinate. He voted for Primate, and only voted for mathcam after it was obvious that he was going to be lynched anyway.

But Johoohno can’t provide a single explanation for what happened last night which doesn’t contradict himself.

Look at what he’s arguing on this page alone- that he believes:
1) That there is only 1 more mafia
2) That a mafia can’t nightkill and use their ability on the same night.
This is simply impossible- then there is no explanation for last night. And it certainly does not prove his own innocence, which Johoohno insists it must. In fact that he insists that he must be innocent for switching the targets of 2 people who targeted the same person.

It is interesting that in [797] Johoohno is considering that I lied because there’s no proof of my ability- except that there’s no other explanation for how Johoohno could have been a possible target for KingPin. And he’s considering that TSN lied. But he is *not* considering if Fonz lied- in fact, I can’t seem to find where he ever has- when that seems like that should be the most obvious possibility, as well as one without any kind of dismissal.

[The Fonz]

The other thing that gets me is mathcam's insistence that he had a role. If he was just plain mafia, then this game should be over, lynch Stoofer and Fonz. Both have made claims that suggest no night action. Everyone else is able to confirm night actions, with the exception of Emp at this point. (I say that because it is hard to prove your role from the information that we have.)

Which is exactly why it's basically impossible to see both me and Stoofer as scum, even if i did not already know my role. It would be frankly TERRIBLE game design to give all the town players confirmable night actions, but not give any to the scum.

And lastly, there is something about The Fonz that is really gnawing at me. I can only think that his role and "no night targets" suggests a flaw either in game design or in claiming this role. One shot mirror. Seems useful or completely useless. How do you mirror a target switch? Or a target redirect?

Simply enough. Anyone trying to redirect actions targetted at me would redirect actions targetted at themselves; anyone trying to redirect

to

me would redirect to themselves.

It's a 'meta' game- one would have thought the point of the game is to render simple assumptions damaging.[/quote]

I give up on figuring last night out.

Vote: The Fonz

based on the irregularity of his claim and his flip on Primate in Day 1.

I want an explanation here. How is it scummy to move away from an early, 'good enough for a first wagon' suspicion, when actions both of the target of that suspicion and others make it look like the initial suspect is town, and another scum? Indeed, what about all of you who didn't buy my early suspicion of Primate, but voted him later? Would you characterise those as 'flips?'

---

About Johoohno:
I don't have any special knowledge (aside from the same prohibition of self-targeting which KingPin, TSN, and massive also have). I'm just deducing based on what Johoohno's saying.

1) If Johoohno could self-target that way: then he's saying he gets to use his ability twice if he self-targets.
(If he targets X and Johoohno, X targets Y, and Y targets Z:
He switches it so that X targets Johoohno, Johoohno targets X and Y.
But then his ability triggers again, so that X targets Z, Y targets Johoohno. This is absurd.)

Are you suggesting some kind of Paradox? I'm really having a hard time following this. I still don't see anything in Johoohno that suggests auto-scum. That no-one else can self-target doesn't mean Johoohno can't- again,

meta

mafia.

Definition of a Lurker. One who contributes as little as possible OR one who posts in other games and does not post in the game where he is being considered for a lynch that day.

Since

The Fonz's

last post in this game he has posted in:
Mini 616: 11 times
Minvitational 8: 1 time
Mini 646: 6 times
Pikman: 9 times
Open 81: 1 time
a few posts in other non-game related threads

Oh, low low blow. Definition of someone who, having been away, made the effort to catch up on all his games, but simply happened to miss one?

Furthermore, games ebb and flow. Sometimes you get into a game on a particular evening, lots of people are posting, and you need to contribute. Mini 616 was DEADLINED for the day i posted 11 times. It's obviously going to be in the front of my mind. Meanwhile, this game just kinda got lost in the middle of the pack of Coney Island games. (And the last few days, I haven't had the chance to post anywhere). For this, I apologise, but it doesn't make me scum.

Furthermore, lurking

because

I'm under suspicion, as scum, is inconsistent with my meta- see Open 60, when coming under attack from Shteven causes me to redouble my posting. When you're staring down the barrel as scum is the most important time to be making sure you're forcefully making your case.

. I’m mentioning since Fonz is the only other one who even approaches possibility. I’m really feeling a Johoohno-Stoofer Occam’s Razor here.

Again, I don't see how this is possible, since for either of them to have killed would require someone outside of the two of them to have lied. Which means that, in my eyes, Joh-Stoofer is basically impossible.

I don't like the Joh wagon, and will support it only if right at deadline, the only alternative is my own lynch. It's kinda late to try a new wagon, but since I obviously don't like my own wagon, nor Joh's, and my reasoning shows Stoofer cannot have killed without someone else interfering, I'll go with someone who has both the possibility of being that interferer, or being the killer, and who has pushed a case which I don't think makes sense.

Vote: EmpTyger

[KingPin]

Fonz: I don't believe you. I don't trust your claim and I certainly don't trust your explanation of redirects from above. It is illogical. Redirects

to

you would necessarily go back to the targetor, not the redirector.

Vote: The Fonz
Vote: The Fonz

This brings The Fonz to L-1

[The Fonz]

Redirects

to

you would necessarily go back to the targetor, not the redirector.

What?

That's

completely illogical. My mirror ability redirects anyone who targets me back to themselves: therefore, anyone targetting me (for redirection) would logically be redirected and end up targetting themselves (for redirection),

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I still prefer johoohno, but would be willing to hammer fonz at deadline.

[EmpTyger]

First of all, a warning- I was getting quota-exceeded errors trying to post this. I’m not waiting until the last minute, and I’m willing to lynch Fonz. If he or anyone else has anything to say, say it very soon. Coordinating nightactions seems futile, since there might be no way to stop Johoohno’s meddling. It’s clear that TSN can’t limit him, and I don’t see any way to know who would take precedent between DotS and Johoohno. (Though I suggest DotS test this tonight, and I think it is good for TSN to keep Johoohno tied down.) I do suggest that KingPin claim his nighttargets today (perhaps twice: once for if Fonz is revealed town/once for if Fonz is revealed mafia). That way, if the mafia kill him, the town has a chance to unravel what happened.

WIth Johoohno: the problem isn’t only that Johoohno claims he can directly affect himself, when no one else can. It’s *how* he claims he can affect himself. If he were telling the truth, why is he only using this self-targeting in the manner he claims to have:
On N3? Why not earlier?
As a secondary action? Why not as a primary action?
Targeting the only possible protown way that secondary action could be triggered? (me, the claimed roledoubler)? If I don’t trigger a secondary action, then whoever does is a liar, and therefore mafia.

So either Johoohno’s secondary ability does nothing, or it’s being used against someone who told the truth about their ability.

And that contradicts what Johoohno claims to believe about the setup.

---

Fonz:
You’ve still got time, regardless of alignment. Do something helpful. Defending yourself with WIFOM (“I don’t do X as mafia; I’m doing X, so I’m clearly not mafia!”) and making insistances about the setup will work as well as it did with mathcam. (And I’d be more likely to buy your idea of what the meta theme means if you weren’t going right on to ignore it, by making assumptions about roles/setup in order to “clear” players.)

You think I’m mafia for suspecting Johoohno? Lovely. Which 3 players do you expect to follow you in the next 36 hours? The ones currently suspecting Johoohno? The ones currently suspecting you? The voteless Johoohno? Me? The absent Stoofer?

So, pretend to be town and be helpful. Temporarily assuming I’m mafia, who do you think is my partner? Because- regardless of your alignment- do you seriously think that offering me as an alternative lynch will help you in the slightest? You’re at lynch-1 and I’m not voting you. Yet.

[The Fonz]

Emp. It couldn't be less wifom. I do not consider tactical lurking an acceptable strategy- town or scum-, and it pisses me off immensely to be accused of it. I simply overlooked this game when doing my big catchup for all my games. I'm not saying it makes me not-scum- i'm saying it doesn't make me scum (though if you want to point out what the tactical advantage is, go ahead). Nice distortion.

So far it appears to me the votes on me are:

KingPin x2, because he makes an absurdly illogical claim about how nightactions should work, and uses it to call my obvious, logical reading of the situation illogical and scummy.

DoTS, because I 'flip-flopped' on Primate. I've explained why this is a ludicrous reach.

So would you mind terribly telling me whether you agree or disagree with this obvious craplogic? I want to stake you to a position at the very least. Do you believe my believing Primate to be town, having previously launched a starter wagon on him, is scummy? Do you believe my reading or KingPin's is the more logical?

(And I’d be more likely to buy your idea of what the meta theme means if you weren’t going right on to ignore it, by making assumptions about roles/setup in order to “clear” players.)

No. You are making assumptions that aren't supported by any evidence. I have given reasoning for mine- namely, that in order for either Stoofer or Joh to have killed, either your action or KingPin's HAS not to have gone through as stated. That is based on a reasonable reading of things.

You think I’m mafia for suspecting Johoohno? Lovely

You have a lovely way of phrasing things in order to denigrate them, don't you? It's quite clear I don't think it scummy of you to suspect him- my problem is

why

. I can't, logically, see any reason to think that Joh must have lied. Yet you keep repeating it almost as an article of faith. I see no particular reason to believe his actions weren't what he said they were, and it appears my requests to get it explained in terms i can understand have fallen on deaf ears. Which means either that you're not willing to, or I'm incapable of understanding the argument at the level of complexity which is apparently necessary to 'get' it.

As for the 'who am I trying to convince?' thing- I don't know. What I do know is I will not prefer what I see as a very flawed wagon to what I see as one that has some validity, and you seem to me to have made some very strong claims on the basis of assumptions I don't think you're entitled to make, and completely escaped scrutiny for it. You could equally make that argument about anyone who isn't me or Joh.

So put yourself in my position. You're town, and you think the wagon on Joh is a triple short of the cycle. What would you do? I don't believe that those who are voting me have good reason to, so I have to believe that DoTS at least can be made to see sense.

You're no harder to get a wagon on than anyone else, and there's more reason for suspicion im my eyes. Not to mention that you've outright called someone else a liar, and you're willing to vote me over the person you've made very clear is your top suspect at deadline because...?

The bottom line is that I just don't understand your argument against Johoohno. It doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he necessarily use it N1? Why are you a particularly bad choice for a town player to switch with?

As for your partner- a few possibilities. The way you attacked Stoof early, then dropped it, makes me think that's a clear possibility. I don't think DoTS is scum after l'affaire Mathcam, so not him. KingPin's not an impossibility.

[EmpTyger]

Fonz:
Honestly, the only reason I’ve not just already voted and lynched you is in case anyone (in particular KingPin) has anything to say about N4 actions. I was denigrating what you said because what you were doing is useless- there aren’t 4 votes available against me, and you weren’t speculating on something useful, like pairings. And I was curious how you’d react. (Not mentioning TSN, or even EmpTyger-TSN, is an interesting touch.) But ultimately I feel sure that the mafia are in {Johoohno, Stoofer, Fonz}. (More precisely, that the mafia are not in {EmpTyger, DotS, KingPin, TSN}. With 7 alive and 2 mafia, the town has 3 lynches available. I don’t care what order the lynches happen in, because as long as they happen, I’m fairly confident the town will win.

(To be completely honest, if I had to pick, I think it’s most likely that you’re innocent, and Johoohno-Stoofer are mafia. But there’s no reason to put all my eggs in one basket by insisting on that, and risking a no-lynch. KingPin and DotS might be right, and I lose nothing by trying that.)

As for the rest:

Emp. It couldn't be less wifom. I do not consider tactical lurking an acceptable strategy- town or scum-, and it pisses me off immensely to be accused of it. I simply overlooked this game when doing my big catchup for all my games. I'm not saying it makes me not-scum- i'm saying it doesn't make me scum (though if you want to point out what the tactical advantage is, go ahead). Nice distortion.

No, what you said was:

Furthermore, lurking

because

I'm under suspicion, as scum, is inconsistent with my meta- see Open 60, when coming under attack from Shteven causes me to redouble my posting. When you're staring down the barrel as scum is the most important time to be making sure you're forcefully making your case.

You’re saying that if you were mafia, you would be acting forcefully, but you’re actually lurking, so you clearly can’t be mafia. That’s WIFOM.

<snip>
So far it appears to me the votes on me are:

KingPin x2, because he makes an absurdly illogical claim about how nightactions should work, and uses it to call my obvious, logical reading of the situation illogical and scummy.

DoTS, because I 'flip-flopped' on Primate. I've explained why this is a ludicrous reach.

So would you mind terribly telling me whether you agree or disagree with this obvious craplogic? I want to stake you to a position at the very least. Do you believe my believing Primate to be town, having previously launched a starter wagon on him, is scummy? Do you believe my reading or KingPin's is the more logical?
<snip>

I staked my position quite clearly in [777]. But again: Your “obvious, logical” reading of the situation is anything but; as I bet every other player will admit, there is nothing obvious about how these nightactions interact. Reversing on Primate isn’t a sign of guilt, but switching to Stoofer is only a sign of innocence if Stoofer is guilty- and that hasn’t been shown. And your opposition to the D1 massclaim helped mafia, not the town. I could easily see you mafia with an innocent Stoofer and a guilty Johoohno, especially after early D2 you shifted the focus off Johoohno and onto Stoofer. (Stoofer-Fonz does seem increasingly unlikely given the current D3 situation- I don’t see why Fonz wouldn’t just simply support the attack on Johoohno.)

<snip>
Not to mention that you've outright called someone else a liar, and you're willing to vote me over the person you've made very clear is your top suspect at deadline because...?
<snip>

Fact check: As you even just pointed out, I’m not voting you. KingPin and DotS are, but I’m not. So, no- I am voting my top suspect over you- but I’m voting you over no-lynch.

You are making assumptions that aren't supported by any evidence. I have given reasoning for mine- namely, that in order for either Stoofer or Joh to have killed, either your action or KingPin's HAS not to have gone through as stated. That is based on a reasonable reading of things.

Except we know that KingPin’s action didn’t go through as stated.
And you’re yet again ignoring how according to D2, Johoohno’s target-switching appears to have precedence over TSN’s roleblocking.

[The Fonz]

Fonz:
Honestly, the only reason I’ve not just already voted and lynched you is in case anyone (in particular KingPin) has anything to say about N4 actions. I was denigrating what you said because what you were doing is useless- there aren’t 4 votes available against me,

There are likely not four votes available against anyone other than me or Joh. Again, what do you do in that situation? I prefer to look for the most likely alternative candidate and explain why i suspect them, even if it is a long shot.

and you weren’t speculating on something useful, like pairings. And I was curious how you’d react. (Not mentioning TSN, or even EmpTyger-TSN, is an interesting touch.)

Emp: Don't do this. You know how the suspended page was coming up all the time last night? I couldn't get back to check the thread. I couldn't remember offhand the name of the other player still alive.

I don't see how looking for pairings is any more difficult than looking for individual scummy people.

But ultimately I feel sure that the mafia are in {Johoohno, Stoofer, Fonz}. (More precisely, that the mafia are not in {EmpTyger, DotS, KingPin, TSN}. With 7 alive and 2 mafia, the town has 3 lynches available. I don’t care what order the lynches happen in, because as long as they happen, I’m fairly confident the town will win.

Please explain why you believe all those to be town.

Emp. It couldn't be less wifom. I do not consider tactical lurking an acceptable strategy- town or scum-, and it pisses me off immensely to be accused of it. I simply overlooked this game when doing my big catchup for all my games. I'm not saying it makes me not-scum- i'm saying it doesn't make me scum (though if you want to point out what the tactical advantage is, go ahead). Nice distortion.

No, what you said was:

Furthermore, lurking

because

I'm under suspicion, as scum, is inconsistent with my meta- see Open 60, when coming under attack from Shteven causes me to redouble my posting. When you're staring down the barrel as scum is the most important time to be making sure you're forcefully making your case.

You’re saying that if you were mafia, you would be acting forcefully, but you’re actually lurking, so you clearly can’t be mafia. That’s WIFOM.

No, that's not the case at all, Emp. Where did I say 'so i can't be mafia?' I know I'm not, of course, but that's not my point. My point is that, given meta, and the kind of player I am, it is unreasonable to suggest that I am

deliberately

lurking at all, because I

never

deliberately lurk. Which makes my not posting a null tell. Null tell =/= cannot be scum for a second.

[quote="The Fonz [806, cont]
<snip>

I staked my position quite clearly in [777]. But again: Your “obvious, logical” reading of the situation is anything but; as I bet every other player will admit, there is nothing obvious about how these nightactions interact.
[/quote]

So do you, or do you not think that KingPin's assertion, that my reading of the situation is utterly illogical, is correct? I simply stated what seemed the obvious implication of what's in my PM (basically, that anyone targetting me will be redirected to themselves). Do you believe my reading is more logical, or his, or do you think either has a good shout?

Reversing on Primate isn’t a sign of guilt, but switching to Stoofer is only a sign of innocence if Stoofer is guilty- and that hasn’t been shown.

Yes. But. One of the two reasons DoTS gave for voting me was my switching off of Primate. Since you've said it's not a sign of guilt, that means you concur that it is a bad argument, no? Neither I, nor anyone else, has ever argued that going from Primate to Stoof was a town tell, unless and until Stoof is shown as mafia. My point is that my switch is not a scumtell.

And your opposition to the D1 massclaim helped mafia, not the town.

How? Besides, yet again, I pretty much always and everywhere oppose massclaim. Any decent mod makes early massclaim detrimental to town.

You are making assumptions that aren't supported by any evidence. I have given reasoning for mine- namely, that in order for either Stoofer or Joh to have killed, either your action or KingPin's HAS not to have gone through as stated. That is based on a reasonable reading of things.

Except we know that KingPin’s action didn’t go through as stated.
And you’re yet again ignoring how according to D2, Johoohno’s target-switching appears to have precedence over TSN’s roleblocking.[/quote]

What?

[KingPin]

If Fonz is guilty my targets will be:
1st: Stoofer
2nd: Jo

If Fonz is innocent my targets will be:
1st: Jo
2nd: DotS

[EmpTyger]

Unvote: Johoohno, vote: The Fonz.

Either way I'm doing KingPin/DotS.

[EmpTyger]

Also, I don't like how TSN didn't vote despite promising, right after Fonz ignores him. Will reread to check to see if this is significant, but wanted to mention now in case mod locks thread.

[EmpTyger]

Meh, I don’t think there’s anything to it.

Case 1) Fonz is guilty:
Then the only reason I can think of why he wouldn’t support the Johoohno attack is if Johoohno is also mafia. If Johoohno were innocent, mislynching him should almost definitely have been a mafia win.

Case 2) Fonz is innocent:
Then there’s nothing to analyze of the fact that he omitted TSN from consideration. TSN’s not casting a lynching vote as promised can be argued either way: on one hand, he didn’t vote for an innocent, but on the other hand, he didn’t offer an alternative, when being silent would cause either Fonz’s lynch or an unhelpful no-lynch. But this is true worse of, say, Stoofer.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Shit, I thought the deadline was Pacific time. Glad you were on top of it.

[the silent speaker]

THat's that.

Final vote count:

The Fonz 4 (DestroyerOfTheSky, KingPin, KingPin, EmpTyger)
EmpTyger 1 (The Fonz)
Johoohno 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not voting, but can:

Mr Stoofer

Gathering enough for a lynch at the last moment, you discover that The Fonz was

mafia

.

Deadline for night 4 will be a shade longish for a few reasons:

Monday, August 25, 11:59 PM EDT

. First page will be edited soon, but not tonight.

[the silent speaker]

Computer giving me trouble so nothing fancy.

No deaths. Six alive, but Mr Stoofer and Johoohno cannot vote, so four active votes, three to lynch.

There will be no further deadline lynches.

[EmpTyger]

I think I’d like to see today the following claim N4 claim order:
1) TSN
2) Johoohno
3) DotS
followed by a Johoohno lynch.

Any objections to the claim order?

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Sounds good to me.

[KingPin]

Emp,
I have no problem with the claim order. But just for giggles, put stoofer on that list as well.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Stoofer first, johoohno second.

This information may change today's lynch.

[Johoohno]

I want KingPin and EmpTyger on the list as well (they can go last just verifying their targets as claimed before night).

Other than that, I don't have any objections to the claim order (though I suggest we lynch scum instead of me, but whom to lynch can be discussed again after the target claims have been made).

[Johoohno]

Aha, TSN has called in and it's my turn already:

DotS and TSN (no back ups, secondary choices or whatever you wish calling them)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh yes, emptyger and kingpin should also claim, even though their targets are fairly obvious. They may have been messed with, after all.

[EmpTyger]

KingPin and I aren't on any list because we have already claimed. On this very page, in fact.

---

Johoohno:
While we're waiting, why don't you amuse us with some explanation for your nightchoice. Specifically, why you retargeted DotS, who was instrumental in lynching both mathcam and Fonz.

[KingPin]

TSN:
In your post above, is that your target claim? or is that your list order? It isn't very clear.

To all:
My targets were as I stated above. I would agree that it is obvious that Emp doubled me and I voteblocked Stoof and Jo.