Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[mneme]

Why can’t the town consider that when we’re ready to evaluate TSN’s claim? Nothing’s going to change between now and then regarding Primate and him.

Er....something's going to change; specifically, we're not unlikely to lynch Primate.

Speaking of which...sorry, Stoofer, I'll get back to you later.

unvote
vote: Primate

For that matter, why are you against a massclaim? Because, it sounds like you were against Primate until TSN came forward, and now are thinking Primate innocent and TSN guilty.

Huh? I was against Primate (but voting Stoofer) until TSN came forward, and am still against Primate, but wih TSN would give me something useful. I don't consider TSN more suspicious than Primate is -- but I do consider what he's given us so far completely useless in terms of proving Primate pro-town.

If you don’t think claims could be useful, how do you explain your switch on Primate? Are you expecting a fuller claim from TSN to be any different than the Primate situation?

Yes, I expect it to give us something to go on re Primate. I'm fine with vague supports in general -- "Internet stranger is supciious" "dude, don't heckle IS; he's cool" "ok,, if you say so dude" -- but given the solid claim I want something more solid (and note upthread what I actually -asked- -- which TSN never answered).

You’re making a broad generalization without any support whatsoever for your position. Would you oppose a massclaim in lynch-or-lose? D4? D2?

What is this, strawman-building day?

D1 is not LoL, and not D4. A well designed game doesn't favor town in a too-early massclaim, because the scum, with extra info, can pick out info they find useful and ignore the rest, whereas the town cannot pick out mafia claims from town claims.

In a badly designed game, a D1 massclaim can prove to be a breaking strategy -- but it's still not all that much fun to see all the magic too early, and usually, "BW-till-claim, then evaluate claim" is the right approach to achieving said massclaim anyway.

Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.

I also don't think they're a good strategy here, but I'll particpate in one if the majority wants to enforce one. Is anyone counting votes?

[massive]

You are clearly making up your argument against TSN as you go along.

It does take me some time in general to figure out what's going on. The reason I changed my opinion of what TSN's net result might be was due to people pointing out that TSN-scum's claim doesn't help Primate-scum. At that point, and due to people confirming that they'd assumed Primate had been "interacted with", I moved to the next logical step -- assuming TSN-scum, Primate-town. I still feel that TSN is being purposefully vague about something he MIGHT know that could help the town.

[Mr Stoofer]

Hey mneme, is bringing someone to L-1 without comment still the mark of a definite Scum?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In a badly designed game, a D1 massclaim can prove to be a breaking strategy -- but it's still not all that much fun to see all the magic too early, and usually, "BW-till-claim, then evaluate claim" is the right approach to achieving said massclaim anyway.

I'm not anticipating it being breaking. I'm anticipating it being useful.

In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game.

Huh? I was against Primate (but voting Stoofer) until TSN came forward, and am still against Primate, but wih TSN would give me something useful. I don't consider TSN more suspicious than Primate is -- but I do consider what he's given us so far completely useless in terms of proving Primate pro-town.

Making a full roleclaim wouldn't go any further toward proving primate pro-town, because even if it would absolutely prove that primate was telling the truth about his role (and it wouldn't), we still wouldn't know what alignment that role is.

[mneme]

Stoof: no, but it's sloppy. Yeah, he's at -1, I wasn't sure whether I was bringing him to 4 or 5. And no, it wasn't a sign that you're definite scum either, though that's the way to bet.

TSN: please don't misstate what other people say. It makes you look like scum. I said two argments. Apparently, 1=2 to you.

For that matter, if you read the thread, you'd see that I never asked you for a full claim. I asked you to answer my questions. If you don't think Primate is likely scum, perhaps you should -- even if it involves a full claim. Because this "I might be able to explain it, but I won't" doesn't cut it.

Anyway, what's so useful about outing all the doc and vig and cop types in the game and how they work in combination? How does this help the town? Doesn't it just provide too many targets for docs to protect and expose the doc types?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.

That definitely sounds like saying you oppose massclaim based on reasons beyond the game to me.

TSN: what are the odds that your action would have caused someone to be able to target Emptyger with an ability despite the redirection? Is this more of an 80% chance, or more of a 10% chance?

I don't have odds to give you. It depends on factors in the setup I don't know.

But I do have a question for you: I'm assuming you have a night action. If so, how do you select the one person you target?

[mneme]

Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.

That definitely sounds like saying you oppose massclaim based on reasons beyond the game to me.

unvote
vote: TheSweatpantsNinja

If you're not scum, you're certainly playing like one. Town don't selectively quote only the points that support their argument. Lets go to the video tape, shall we?

Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.

I also don't think they're a good strategy here, but I'll particpate in one if the majority wants to enforce one. Is anyone counting votes?

And in my initial anti-massclaim post:

FWIW, I -don't- support a massclaim:

1. Meta. Day 1 massclaims are bad for Mafia. Not this game -- every game; they just make the game less fun and less meaningful.

2. If the game is well designed, a day 1 massclaim will help the scum a -lot- more than it will help the town, as the scum will claim plausble roles, and meanwhile get a nice laundry list of who they need to kill. They might even have safe claims. Do we really need that?

Wow, yeah, I'm just saying that it's my meta; there's no actual game reason I'm stating supporting my argument, nope. Well, at least, not in the bits you chose to quote.

TSN: what are the odds that your action would have caused someone to be able to target Emptyger with an ability despite the redirection? Is this more of an 80% chance, or more of a 10% chance?

I don't have odds to give you. It depends on factors in the setup I don't know.

But I do have a question for you: I'm assuming you have a night action. If so, how do you select the one person you target?

I use my judgement. Which is what I'm asking you to do above, or claim; you are at a certain level of certainty, but seem not to be willing to share it, just vague assurances you won't commit to.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote mneme.

Does anyone else see why mneme's response is wrong?

[mneme]

And an OMGUS, too.

TSN, your defense of Primate was protown, but that only goes so far.

Anyway, see you Monday. Same bat time, same bat channel.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You're apparently going to be gone, but when you return:

Please describe the

precise

mechanism by which you use your ability.

[EmpTyger]

Have to run, so this isn’t complete- I have more to say to massive, for one. But for now:

---

TSN:
After Primate- I’m not necessary sure that what you are referring to in mneme’s is damning. Not that there aren’t other problems with it…

<snip>
So we should massclaim. And primate, since he's already claimed, should pick his most anti-town person to claim. And we should continue along those lines.

While I am skeptical at this point of the massclaim occurring, if it does happen, this is not how. The town should not place trust in the player it finds most suspicious, and if Primate delurks there is much more important things for him to do than this. Rather, someone should propose an order for everyone else. Others can raise and discuss any issues they have with it, as well as at what point the proposed should claim.

---

mneme:

<snip>
Anyway, what's so useful about outing all the doc and vig and cop types in the game and how they work in combination? How does this help the town? Doesn't it just provide too many targets for docs to protect and expose the doc types?

Look at what happened with Primate, and TSN. Nightactions are inconclusive without total knowledge, and their blind use will more likely than not lead the town badly astray.

In this game, powerroles will not help the town identify antitowns.

If you think otherwise, *show* it.

Look at it this way. If we don’t massclaim, what’s going to happen whenever we try to lynch someone? Before their lynch, they’re going to claim, and that claim’s going to have to be evaluated. And that evaluation will require cannot be done without others’ claims (ie TSN in Primate’s case). And certainly to you at least, given how you’re pressuring TSN, those other claims will need to be fully evaluated. So why not handle claims in a more optimal way for the town?

(And, I know, also your meta. Which happens to be something that hurts the town and helps antitowns. You’re going to have to defend it with more than a blanket, “that’s my meta”. Just like Primate’s meta-lurking isn’t an excuse for his antitown actions. Just like Stoofer’s meta-sloppiness isn’t an excuse for his antitown actions.)

And an OMGUS, too.

TSN, your defense of Primate was protown, but that only goes so far.
<snip>

TSN’s vote was anything but OMGUS. But more importantly, if you thought TSN’s defense of Primate was protown,

why did you attack him over it

! Why would you want him to reveal more? I mean, applying your opposition to the massclaim to TSN- it makes no sense why you would oppose a general massclaim but support it specifically for a player you were thinking protown!

I need to reread to check out Stoofer-massive-mneme.

---

Johoohno:
You unvoted Primate after his claim, and are trying to shift attention elsewhere- but your only direct comment on Primate since was “seems believable to me, but it's not indicative of his alignment”. Elaborate, please. With Primate one away from lynch, trying to expand focus to others while ignoring the attacks against and defenses of Primate feels too much like you’re trying to lie low.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger: In what way do you want me to elaborate on Primate's claim (the sentence you've quoted me on pretty much sums up my view)? I won't help lynching Primate right now, and I don't see any immediate danger of him being quicklynched without the vote tally giving valuable information of whom to be seen as scum, depending on what alignment his death would show (he is actually at L-2 if I've done my math correctly). I'm not saying that I see him as town, but I see other players as more scummy.

I'm still waiting for DestroyeroftheSky (

Mod: could you prod DotS please?

) and I'm intrigued by the argument between mneme and ThesweatpantsNinja. I don't like how mneme puts Primate at L-1 and then try to cover it up by attacking TSN, but I agree with him on the no mass claiming stanse (as said before).

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN:
After Primate- I’m not necessary sure that what you are referring to in mneme’s is damning. Not that there aren’t other problems with it…

I think it might very well be, if our town is comprised almost completely of power roles. I'll be curious to see who gets it and who doesn't. Also, based on that, do you at least understand why I can't be sure if I was responsible for primate's power failure?

That's a good catch, also, about how mneme attacked me over my "protown" defense.

[mathcam]

I agree that the "judgement" part of that line is not very damning. For one, it's not clear that scum wouldn't have exactly the same mechanism. For two, he could've been trying to be coy with his refusal to give specifics. On the other hand, the "vague assurances" part of that line doesn't seem to make sense with that point of view. Combined with the pro-town defense bit, mneme has passed Primate on my scumometer (who I didn't have particularly stunning reasons for in the first place).

Vote: mneme.

I'd be nervous about a mass-claim for a couple of reasons. For one, I'd like to re-iterate the point that games are usually designed so that this is a bad strategy. While I understand (or at least think I understand) Emp's points about why this game is different, TSS is no noobie mod. It's possible, if not likely, that they have meta-information about what pro-town roles look like, or something of the sort. That would certainly fit with the theme. Second, I'm not sure our pro-town roles are as worthless as you think, Emp. While there will always be a degree of doubt surrounding a night result, this doesn't mean that the information is rendered useless. We just have to recognize that there's a possibility that the information has been tampered with -- for that matter, a somewhat small possibility, since presumably only one person per night can be targeted with this. Finally, if the target-switcher gets killed, then this threat goes away, and we're left with our roles exposed with no benefit.

Cam

[EmpTyger]

I was thinking about offering as a counterproposal: what if instead of massclaiming roles, we only massclaim targets?

But I’m kind of despairing of convincing people. So I’ll also offer this: I’ll drop pressing for a massclaim, if those who are against it pledge that they understand that

anything to do with claims is at best useless and more likely counterproductive

, and

all nightactions will be treated as completely unreliable until after a massclaim is done

.

I think this is less optimal than a massclaim, because if the town ever does resort to claiming, the mafia will have been given time to adequately prepare for one, whereas now I doubt they are. But at least it removes But it’s better than nothing. And while this probably deserves some eyerolls, it’s less distracting than the alternative would be.

I still haven’t had time for a reread. Also, something needs to be done about the Primate situation, and likely DotS too.

---

massive:

You are clearly making up your argument against TSN as you go along.

It does take me some time in general to figure out what's going on. The reason I changed my opinion of what TSN's net result might be was due to people pointing out that TSN-scum's claim doesn't help Primate-scum. At that point, and due to people confirming that they'd assumed Primate had been "interacted with", I moved to the next logical step -- assuming TSN-scum, Primate-town. I still feel that TSN is being purposefully vague about something he MIGHT know that could help the town.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. You’re not analyzing what you’re reading and making a conclusion about TSN. He’s guilty, no matter what, according to your logic. (Well, unless he fullclaims. But in the case of everyone else, you’re against hearing claims.)

---

Johoohno:
I wanted you to elaborate on Primate’s alignment.

Also, which other players specifically do you see “as more scummy”?

---

mathcam:

<snip>
I'd be nervous about a mass-claim for a couple of reasons. For one, I'd like to re-iterate the point that games are usually designed so that this is a bad strategy. While I understand (or at least think I understand) Emp's points about why this game is different, TSS is no noobie mod. It's possible, if not likely, that they have meta-information about what pro-town roles look like, or something of the sort. That would certainly fit with the theme. Second, I'm not sure our pro-town roles are as worthless as you think, Emp. While there will always be a degree of doubt surrounding a night result, this doesn't mean that the information is rendered useless. We just have to recognize that there's a possibility that the information has been tampered with -- for that matter, a somewhat small possibility, since presumably only one person per night can be targeted with this. Finally, if the target-switcher gets killed, then this threat goes away, and we're left with our roles exposed with no benefit.

Blindly following a meta and outguessing the mod are not good strategies. I’ll let Stoofer handle the rest of the rebuttal first point.

But your second- do you genuinely believe that? The probability is not small. In fact, based on N1, it is a lot closer to 100%. It is more than 1 person/night. And it is more than a target-switcher that will be confusing the town.
Honestly, the fact that you think otherwise really troubles me. It’s easier for me to read that as you’re providing a reason to kill Primate, “just in case”.

---

Stoofer:
I’m sure you’re pleased at punch at slinking out of a lynch without even needing to fakeclaim. But, instead of lying low and praying that the spotlight doesn’t return to you, why don’t you try pretending to be protown? You know, actually trying to help the town with your posts? (And before you point to [302], no, it doesn’t count. You’re not otherwise commenting about mneme. You’re just saying what you can to discredit an attack made against you, however effective the discrediting was.)

[EmpTyger]

But I’m kind of despairing of convincing people. So I’ll also offer this: I’ll drop pressing for a massclaim, if those who are against it pledge that they understand that

anything to do with claims is at best useless and more likely counterproductive

, and

all nightactions will be treated as completely unreliable until after a massclaim is done

.

Actually, on second thought, I’d like that of *all* players, even those who support a massclaim.

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
I wanted you to elaborate on Primate’s alignment.

Also, which other players specifically do you see “as more scummy”?

I am suspicious of Primate, but he isn't my top scum candidate right now. Two other players I see as suspicious are (not in any specific order right now): DestroyeroftheSky (for a long time now) and mneme (recent addition due to last page actions).

But I’m kind of despairing of convincing people. So I’ll also offer this: I’ll drop pressing for a massclaim, if those who are against it pledge that they understand that

anything to do with claims is at best useless and more likely counterproductive

, and all

nightactions will be treated as completely unreliable until after a massclaim is done

.

I don't think that anything that has to do with claims are useless until we've had a mass claim, but I think that all investigations and the like is to be taken with a grain (or more like a handful) of salt in this game. Sounds, to me, as if I partly disagree with the first part and agrees with the second one. I admit that my suspicions of Primate dropped somewhat after his claim (and TSN's potential explanation as to why EmpTyger still was targeted), but he is still, as said before in this post, suspicious.

[Mr Stoofer]

But I’m kind of despairing of convincing people. So I’ll also offer this: I’ll drop pressing for a massclaim, if those who are against it pledge that they understand that

anything to do with claims is at best useless and more likely counterproductive

, and

all nightactions will be treated as completely unreliable until after a massclaim is done

.

Actually, on second thought, I’d like that of *all* players, even those who support a massclaim.

I have had that view: so I am happy to give that pledge.

___________________________

I think that the mneme/TSN dispute is overblown. As I see it, it went like this:

• 294: mneme gave two reasons to oppose a massclaim - one meta, one game-specific.
  
• 303: TSN interpreted mneme's
  principle
  ground of opposition as being meta - not unreasonable since it was reason #1 in his initial anti-massclaim post. That is what I think TSN was trying to say in 303.
  
• 304: mneme interpreted TSN as saying that mneme's
  only
  ground of opposition was meta -- again not an unreasonable interpretation of 303, because 303 was imprecise and hyperbolic.
  
• 305: TSN seemed to have interpreted 304 as saying that mneme was denying ever having given meta reasons. And in 305 he quoted mneme giving meta as an argument against a massclaim.
  
• 306: mneme interpreted 305 that as an attempt to show that mneme had given
  only
  meta reasons and (on that basis) voted for him. But I don't think that that was what TSN was trying to do in 305.

Seems to me that this whole thing involves more failure to communicate/understand than anything else.

To be honest, I'd be perfectly content with a mneme lynch as I think there is a higher than average chance that he is Scum -- although the exchange with TSN is entirely neutral to my mind. But I still think Primate is the way to go today. I mean, what has happened since Primate was at L-1, L-2 to make anyone think that he is less likely to be Scum than hitherto?

[mneme]

Emptiger's "pledge" is pointless. Johonoo is correct; without a massclaim, anything to do with claims is -not- useless; it's just unreliable. I don't "understand" that anything to do with claims is useless because it's simply not true.

Stoofer: Re primate, nothing's changed. But then, my only reason to consider him scummy was his claim, and while TSN's non-defense isn't actually useful for validating the claim, it does tie (vaguely) indicate that -if- TSN is not scum, Primate might not be lying scum.

Re TSN: er...I'm not attacking TSN because he defended Primate, and, in fact, I -never- attacked TSN because he defended Primate.

That's a good catch, also, about how mneme attacked me over my "protown" defense.

Ah, TSN is lying scum, then. Or at least, a very, very careless reader.

Emptiger, even more so:

TSN’s vote was anything but OMGUS. But more importantly, if you thought TSN’s defense of Primate was protown,

why did you attack him over it

!

I never attacked TSN over his defense of Primate; I asked him to clarify his defense, because it wasn't useful. At one point, I tried to push him on this...by voting -Primate-, not TSN. (that's when I brought Primate to -1. I'd been counting to see that he wasn't close to a lynch, but didn't recount right before the vote to see if he was now at -1...oops, sorry about that). But I considered TSN's non-defense to be somewhat protown -- you don't want to tie yourself to a buddy this early if you're scum, and acting on role-related info to save a non-ally is pro-town.

So Emptiger, why did you lie here, claiming I'd attacked TSN over his defense of Primate? And town, why did you let that stand?

However, since that time, TSN has:

1. Backed off on his defense of Primate and refused to make it useful, as well as refusing to tie his alignment to Primate's in any even vague fashion.

2. Deliberately misrepresented my position (re massclaims) for rhetorical purposes. Including, at several points, lying. "In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game." er, what?

3. Asked his ridiculous leading question which seemed intended to elicit a half-claim for no reason.

So overall, I'd characterize him as "lying scum, trying to buddy up to a townie" making TSN as scum, and Primate as townie. Or he could be lying scum trying to save a buddy without tying their alignments together and trying to avoid hinting at a role he can't prove. Either way, we should lynch TSN.

And TSN: -if- I have an ability with a night choice, I use it by PMing the mod. Or emailing him. Or IMing him. Or calling him. Or asking a mutual friend to walk over to his house and tell him what I want to do. What's your point? I might have an ability that chooses one target, two targets, whatever.

[KingPin]

You're apparently going to be gone, but when you return:

Please describe the

precise

mechanism by which you use your ability.

This sounds like you want a role claim from mneme. What?
___
In other news:
___

Nightactions are inconclusive without total knowledge, and their blind use will more likely than not lead the town badly astray.

I absolutely agree with this comment. I think that we can sort out basic town action and anti-town action on N-1 with a little information. Not mass claiming, but with the limited information so far.

Think about this. If you have a night power and are pro-town, did you use it on N-1? Is it possible for your night actions to have a negative result during the day? Is it possible that your N-1 action has had a negative effect on the town during D-1?

That is precisely the information I think that can solve this. Primate says that he has a doc-type role. TSN says that he may have information that would explain away Primate's ineffectiveness. With that limited information, we can say that Primate (if his claim is true) shifted targets from player to player and that TSN may have prevented this from happening. We also know that Emp does not have a vote and Primate has two.

If TSN has blocked a night action and chose to use it on N-1 without any hints as to alignment of any other player, his night actions are scummy.

If TSN has the same target transfer as Primate, then they both have the same night action and, IMHO, one of them is likely scum.

The same could be said about Primate, he has used his power to transfer night actions from one player to another and in the process used a potentially power role in a scummy way.
___

The other troubling thing about all of this is the obvious coincidence that Emp lost a vote and Primate gained a vote. Primate targeted Emp. TSN targeted Primate. So someone took a vote away from someone. And then someone gave a vote to another. That is a whole lot of targeting around Emp and Primate. One to protect, one to vote block, one to vote give, one to power block or target switch. On two players N-1. I call BS.

All of that to say that I still find Primate as my scummiest player as of right now with TSN a very close second.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

1. Backed off on his defense of Primate and refused to make it useful, as well as refusing to tie his alignment to Primate's in any even vague fashion.

I don't know how many ways I can say it: I can't be sure that I affected primate in any manner. Also, initially I thought, "well, if I can corroborate primate's claim, he must be town." But then all the discussion regarding massclaim and how role may not relate to alignment changed my conclusion on that. So no, I can't prove primate's alignment. I have relevant information, but not enough setup knowledge to be certain precisely what it means.

2. Deliberately misrepresented my position (re massclaims) for rhetorical purposes. Including, at several points, lying. "In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game." er, what?

Well, when you use a word like "regardless," that sort of implies that your empirical objections are not the primary reason for you objecting to massclaim. At the very least, you're coming from a biased position.

3. Asked his ridiculous leading question which seemed intended to elicit a half-claim for no reason.

Shrug. It could only be good once. Why not ask it? If everyone gets it, well, then no harm done, but if some people don't. . .

This sounds like you want a role claim from mneme. What?

Not at all. Well, I mean, I do, because I think we should massclaim, but I wasn't asking for it in the context of that question.

As for the rest of that: Considering how many targets there may have been last night, the fact that emptyger and primate were targeted multiple times is hardly surprising. I'm sure a lot of people were targeted with effects that are slightly less noticeable and haven't been claimed, because the discussion has centered around primate.

[Mr Stoofer]

2.

Deliberately misrepresented

my position (re massclaims) for rhetorical purposes. Including, at

several points, lying

. "In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game." er, what?

Arggh!!!

So many people in this game are ready to accuse people of "deliberate misrepresentation" and "lying" when the far more likely explanation is that they misunderstood something and/or expressed themselves loosely. Do you really think that it is more likely that TSN was hoping to trick the Town into thinking you had given meta reasons only, than mere failure of communication as suggested in post 317?

[Mr Stoofer]

To avoid being misunderstood myself: I see the force in your points #1 and #3, although they don't dislodge my current view of TSN. I do have a problem with #2, though.

[The Fonz]

Fonz[: No one else has "vouched" for him.

TSN has not provided "information that might clear Primate." All he has said is that he MIGHT know what happened. I understand that you believe that some outside force worked on Primate to affect his nightchoice -- you said so in [283]. Do you think it's possible that you are making the logical leap between this and accepting that TSN is telling the truth?

That's my entire point! If no-one backed Primate up, he might well have been lynched (he still might, of course). No-one else was backing Primate up, and as mneme has notified us, there were at least some players in the game who were willing to believe Primate only if someone backed him up.

AS for your last point, the two are functionally equivalent. If I believe that some outside force actually did affect primate, I don't think we should lynch him. If I believe TSN is telling the truth... I don't think we should lynch Primate (or if he's lying, for that matter, for then we'd want to lynch TSN).

This whole thing is distracting us from lynching Stoofer.

[EmpTyger]

The following underlined statement is *not* intended to aid the town in making any conclusion on Primate or TSN. Rather, it is to hopefully show just how pointless trying to draw conclusions from partial nightactions will be.

I have information which might negate TSN’s information regarding Primate.

And before anyone asks: No, I will not reveal any more at this time. To be honest, I do not trust the town, based on how they have reacted to Primate’s and TSN’s claims, to use well any information I give. And even if I do, it’s not going to change things fundamentally, unless there’s a massclaim. But things like:

<snip>
I admit that my suspicions of Primate dropped somewhat after his claim (and TSN's potential explanation as to why EmpTyger still was targeted),
<snip>

<snip>
Re primate, nothing's changed. But then, my only reason to consider him scummy was his claim, and while TSN's non-defense isn't actually useful for validating the claim, it does tie (vaguely) indicate that -if- TSN is not scum, Primate might not be lying scum.
<snip>

<snip>
If TSN has blocked a night action and chose to use it on N-1 without any hints as to alignment of any other player, his night actions are scummy.

If TSN has the same target transfer as Primate, then they both have the same night action and, IMHO, one of them is likely scum.
<snip>
The other troubling thing about all of this is the obvious coincidence that Emp lost a vote and Primate gained a vote. Primate targeted Emp. TSN targeted Primate. So someone took a vote away from someone. And then someone gave a vote to another. That is a whole lot of targeting around Emp and Primate. One to protect, one to vote block, one to vote give, one to power block or target switch. On two players N-1. I call BS.
<snip>

Each of these are just as likely to be wrong as right. And they show a disturbing lack of willingness to analyze the situation as a whole. It seems too many players would rather try to outguess the mod and rely blindly on metas than actually *think* about what information we actually have. And I’m worried that too many players will follow nebulous nightactions over actual, in-thread, suspicious behavior.

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mneme:

<snip>
Emptiger, even more so:

TSN’s vote was anything but OMGUS. But more importantly, if you thought TSN’s defense of Primate was protown,

why did you attack him over it

!

I never attacked TSN over his defense of Primate; I asked him to clarify his defense, because it wasn't useful. At one point, I tried to push him on this...by voting -Primate-, not TSN.
<snip>

First of all, in [306] you did vote TSN. So the fact that you attacked him is not in question.

Second, you’d been mentioning 2 things against him: his attacks against you, and his defense of Primate. In [308] you accused TSN of OMGUS. So you’re saying that TSN was counterattacking you, which requires you to have attacked him first. Which means that you weren’t voting him over his attacks- because then *you*’d be committing OMGUS, not him. (I suppose alternatively you could have just been misrepresenting when you called TSN’s vote OMGUS. But, that’s not protown either.) Which leaves the defense of Primate, which even now in [318] you’re saying was protown.

So, try again.

1. Backed off on his defense of Primate and refused to make it useful, as well as refusing to tie his alignment to Primate's in any even vague fashion.
<snip>
3. Asked his ridiculous leading question which seemed intended to elicit a half-claim for no reason.
<snip>

TSN was clumsily trying to get you to claim because he thought he could trap you. Based on what you are assuming and arguing, you seemed to be unfamiliar with certain aspects of the setup. Worse, you seemed to be trying to stay as unenlightened as possible, and keep the town as much in the dark as you can.

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KingPin:

<snip>
The same could be said about Primate, he has used his power to transfer night actions from one player to another and in the process used a potentially power role in a scummy way.
<snip>

How would that have been “in a scummy way”?