Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[the silent speaker]

Vote count

:

Mr Stoofer: 4 (mneme, The Fonz, Massive, Primate)
Primate: 3 (DestroyerOfTheSky, Mr Stoofer, KingPin)
Johoohno: 1 (Primate)

Not voting, but can:

Johoohno, mathcam, TheSweatpantsNinja

6 to lynch; 2 more needed for Mr Stoofer, 3+ for anyone else.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN: What does the town have to provide to you in order for you to completely clarify what you are claiming / saying? Because you seem to be willing to hint about it an awful lot without any specifics. You also seem to expect the town to act based upon your hints.

I would, as I've stated, support a massclaim, and under those circumstances, I'd gladly claim my precise role.

[massive]

Uh-uh. No rolefishing. If claiming is to occur, it is going to be done in a deliberate, direct, and organized manner. TSN came forward voluntarily because he thought it would be helpful. He is currently under no obligation to go further than what he feels helpful.

But he's NOT being helpful. He's being purposefully obtuse. "I might stress MIGHT be able to explain Primate's inability to affect EmpTyger." All it is is trying to explain away, with a wave of the hand, one of the big problems with Primate's roleclaim.

I'm sorry, but I don't fall for Jedi mind tricks.

[mathcam]

Vote: Primate.

Cam

[The Fonz]

Uh-uh. No rolefishing. If claiming is to occur, it is going to be done in a deliberate, direct, and organized manner. TSN came forward voluntarily because he thought it would be helpful. He is currently under no obligation to go further than what he feels helpful.

But he's NOT being helpful. He's being purposefully obtuse. "I might stress MIGHT be able to explain Primate's inability to affect EmpTyger." All it is is trying to explain away, with a wave of the hand, one of the big problems with Primate's roleclaim.

I'm sorry, but I don't fall for Jedi mind tricks.

Well, 'might' is a somewhat bizarre choice of word. But if another player can vouch for the plausibility of Primate's claim (which I have always thought was highly likely, as primate is not entirely stupid) I don't feel i need to know precisely how.

[massive]

Fonzie

: Knowing that Primate is not stupid, did you immediately assume that there was in fact someone out there who either affected him, or would at the least lend his claim plausibility?

[EmpTyger]

massive:

<snip>
But he's NOT being helpful. He's being purposefully obtuse. "I might stress MIGHT be able to explain Primate's inability to affect EmpTyger." All it is is trying to explain away, with a wave of the hand, one of the big problems with Primate's roleclaim.

I'm sorry, but I don't fall for Jedi mind tricks.

I'd like to point out that that's more than *Primate* himself is doing. TSN was under no obligation to come forward.
Is TSN's evidence what's keeping you from voting Primate, or is this more about TSN?

[massive]

It's more about TSN. It's like he's feeling out whether the town will still support him once he finished out his claim. I think there's pros and cons for Primate's wagon, but I want to wrap my brain about this completely before I move my vote.

[The Fonz]

Fonzie

: Knowing that Primate is not stupid, did you immediately assume that there was in fact someone out there who either affected him, or would at the least lend his claim plausibility?

Assume is too strong a word. I thought it extremely likely. There's always the possibility of a 'delay my lynch' style gambit, where he hopes people will assume the above, but i wouldn't bet on it.

[Mr Stoofer]

Speaking just for myself, I would be happy to let TSN decide for himself whether to give a full explanation or not. In part I say that because I believe that he is pro-Town.

But in the absence of a full explanation, his partial explanation is so partial that I can't put any weight on it, so I'm not going to.

[mathcam]

I find Massive's suspicion of TSN bizarre. Why would he bother testing out a fake claim at this point? As a desperate attempt to save his co-scum Primate? He certainly didn't try very hard...nor does it seem to be very effective.

Cam

[KingPin]

Does anyone here doubt Primate's claim?

If you do, what do you doubt about it?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I doubt whether its pro-town, mostly. The claim itself is believable enough, but considering the game, like stoofer, I don't think it has much bearing on whether or not he's town.

[massive]

I find Massive's suspicion of TSN bizarre. Why would he bother testing out a fake claim at this point? As a desperate attempt to save his co-scum Primate? He certainly didn't try very hard...nor does it seem to be very effective.

Well, that's just it. Why WOULD he come out and say anything at all? It certainly seemed to be enough for most people to just assume that if they believe Primate's roleclaim, that something must have happened to him. So why WOULD TSN come out with a half-claim and try and explain away Primate's inconsistency?

I don't think it's a "help co-scum" thing. With no indication of Primate's alignment and TSN saying (right above me) that he doesn't necessarily believe Primate is town, it seems more like TSN is expecting us to lynch Primate and is trying to tie his half-role-claim into backing up Primate's innocence.

That's what I mean more than "testing out a fake claim" ... more like testing out the town's reaction to him claiming something related to Primate turning up to be telling the truth.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I expected to lynch primate, but unvoted him?

[massive]

You expected the TOWN to lynch Primate.

[Mr Stoofer]

I guess massive's theory

could

be true -- so I disagree with mathcam -- but I don't think that the theory is inherently more likely than TSN genuinely trying to advance the debate about Primate while not revealing his own role.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You expected the TOWN to lynch Primate.

So, my plan was:

Primate claims.

I say, "I have information that may clear primate," and unvote.

Town says, "fuck you, tsn" and lynches him anyway?

That's a terrible plan.

[The Fonz]

I find Massive's suspicion of TSN bizarre. Why would he bother testing out a fake claim at this point? As a desperate attempt to save his co-scum Primate? He certainly didn't try very hard...nor does it seem to be very effective.

Well, that's just it. Why WOULD he come out and say anything at all? It certainly seemed to be enough for most people to just assume that if they believe Primate's roleclaim, that something must have happened to him. So why WOULD TSN come out with a half-claim and try and explain away Primate's inconsistency?

Because, y'know, maybe some people DIDN'T believe the claim without any kind of substantiation, and would be willing to lynch him, but not if someone else vouches for him.

THe notion that TSN unvoted and had information that might clear primate in the hope of him being lynched anyway stretches the bounds of plausibility.

[mneme]

FWIW, I had that exact point, and TSN's quasi-info is the only reason I'm not voting Primate Right Now. That said, I'd like more info on that point, and consider it somewhat bizarre that he refuses to provide it.

FWIW, I -don't- support a massclaim:

1. Meta. Day 1 massclaims are bad for Mafia. Not this game -- every game; they just make the game less fun and less meaningful.

2. If the game is well designed, a day 1 massclaim will help the scum a -lot- more than it will help the town, as the scum will claim plausble roles, and meanwhile get a nice laundry list of who they need to kill. They might even have safe claims. Do we really need that?

[massive]

TSN

: That's only a terrible plan

if

you're town. Which we don't know. By the way, your Step Two should read, "I say, 'I have information that may clear primate, but won't tell you what it is,' and unvote." And if you're town in this situation, why WOULDN'T the town say "F you TSN" and lynch him anyways? You're being purposefully secretive and not really giving us any reason to believe you. How can you expect to affect any outcome?

Fonz

: No one else has "vouched" for him. TSN has not provided "information that might clear Primate." All he has said is that he MIGHT know what happened. I understand that you believe that some outside force worked on Primate to affect his nightchoice -- you said so in [283]. Do you think it's possible that you are making the logical leap between this and accepting that TSN is telling the truth?

[mneme]

Actually, TSN's waffled more than that. TSN has said he has info that -might- explain Primate's night action -- not info that actually does.

Info that -would- explain primate's night action + vote change, well, ok, fine, I'd work with that; it means TSN is committing to something and we're holding him to his word that things make sense.

Info that might explain it? But TSN doesn't know this? No, that doesn't work; we need to be able to evaluate it too.

[EmpTyger]

massive:
You are clearly making up your argument against TSN as you go along.

<snip>
But he's NOT being helpful. He's being purposefully obtuse. "I might stress MIGHT be able to explain Primate's inability to affect EmpTyger." All it is is trying to explain away, with a wave of the hand, one of the big problems with Primate's roleclaim.

I'm sorry, but I don't fall for Jedi mind tricks.

<snip>
I don't think it's a "help co-scum" thing. With no indication of Primate's alignment and TSN saying (right above me) that he doesn't necessarily believe Primate is town, it seems more like TSN is expecting us to lynch Primate and is trying to tie his half-role-claim into backing up Primate's innocence.

That's what I mean more than "testing out a fake claim" ... more like testing out the town's reaction to him claiming something related to Primate turning up to be telling the truth.

You, Stoofer, who else?

---

KingPin:

Does anyone here doubt Primate's claim?

If you do, what do you doubt about it?

With TSN taking responsibility for the discrepancy regarding my being targeted, I am willing to give Primate the benefit of the doubt regarding his ability. I do not see it as in any way indicative of his alignment, however. His play, on the other hand, has been second to only Stoofer in atrociousness, and he has massive getting sloppy to thank for me not making a more scathing argument against him.

---

mneme:

<snip>
Info that might explain it? But TSN doesn't know this? No, that doesn't work; we need to be able to evaluate it too.

Why can’t the town consider that when we’re ready to evaluate TSN’s claim? Nothing’s going to change between now and then regarding Primate and him.

For that matter, why are you against a massclaim? Because, it sounds like you were against Primate until TSN came forward, and now are thinking Primate innocent and TSN guilty. If you don’t think claims could be useful, how do you explain your switch on Primate? Are you expecting a fuller claim from TSN to be any different than the Primate situation?

<snip>
1. Meta. Day 1 massclaims are bad for Mafia. Not this game -- every game; they just make the game less fun and less meaningful.

You’re making a broad generalization without any support whatsoever for your position. Would you oppose a massclaim in lynch-or-lose? D4? D2? Where do you draw the line? My point is that you *can’t* arbitrarily pick a point at which massclaims are good or bad. You have to evaluate the specific circumstances of each individual game and circumstance. Which requires skill, and critical thinking, and deductive and inductive reasoning, and application of logic to developing a protown plan opposed by subtle antitown manipulative influences. Seems fun and meaningful to me.

2. If the game is well designed, a day 1 massclaim will help the scum a -lot- more than it will help the town, as the scum will claim plausble roles, and meanwhile get a nice laundry list of who they need to kill. They might even have safe claims. Do we really need that?

I’ve addressed this elsewhere- see my recent posts to Fonz and KingPin. The “laundry list” being given will be useless. And regardless of whether there is a massclaim, the town should not be blind to the possibility of safeclaims.

---

Johoohno:
Why did you unvote Primate? You were against him back at the start of the day, with evidence I personally thought weak. But since then, what has he done that’s protown?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Actually, TSN's waffled more than that. TSN has said he has info that -might- explain Primate's night action -- not info that actually does.

I haven't waffled at all. I have information that may clear primate, depending on the exact nature of the setup.

I’ve addressed this elsewhere- see my recent posts to Fonz and KingPin. The “laundry list” being given will be useless. And regardless of whether there is a massclaim, the town should not be blind to the possibility of safeclaims.

Exactly. I'm making a couple of assumptions here:

A. The town is comprised mostly of power roles.

B. The nature of the roles is not necessarily indicative of alignment. Or, at least, pro-town roles are not necessarily indicative of pro-townness. Mine isn't, particularly. Primate's isn't. Greasy spot's wasn't.

The two scenarios are, then: Mafia have power roles as well that are not necessarily indicative of their alignment, in which case, we know and can monitor people's power roles.

Alternately, they don't. In which case the mafia will conspicuously not have roles, or will be forced to make them up.

So we should massclaim. And primate, since he's already claimed, should pick his most anti-town person to claim. And we should continue along those lines.

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
Why did you unvote Primate? You were against him back at the start of the day, with evidence I personally thought weak. But since then, what has he done that’s protown?

I unvoted because I, at that time, was a bit behind in the reading of the thread and I didn't want a player to be lynched with the help of my vote unbeknowst to me.

I can't say that he has done very many things I see as pro town since then. However, D1 has mostly been about Primate and Stoofer, and I want it to be about other things and players too (right now I'm waiting for DestroyeroftheSky to answer my question in post 273).