Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I don't have a post restriction of any kind. I was just gone for the weekend. I don't find stoofer's mostly random vote suspicious in the slightest. I found kingpin's response to be somewhat offsetting, but not that bad.
Mneme: Serious or sarcastic? I honestly can't tell, and if you're serious, then I really disagree with you.
Anyway, I agree that primate's double vote is a more interesting point to discuss, and I'm not sure I like him giving his vote away. At this stage of the game, it might not matter that much, but it does feel like he's trying to please the crowd a bit.
So,Unvote, vote primate.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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What mathcam said about stoofer matches my thought process. What benefit does stooferscum derive from lying about his reasoning Day 1? Unless you truly think that stoofer was, as scum, incapable of coming up with a good reason for a random vote. . . seems like a nulltell to me.
But I see primate, as scum, as attempting to look good for the town by proxying his vote, when in reality he can un-proxy it at will, so it costs him nothing while gaining himself townie points as scum. That's certainly not a surefire case, but its the best I see so far.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I might have a problem with the L-1 without warning. But the first two, yes. May as well just read mathcam's post, but I'll add on: do you think scum are more likely to be inattentive than town?stoofer wrote: Wait a second. You’re giving Stoofer a pass for (1) lying, (2) misrepresenting another player’s actions, and (3) putting a player at lynch-1 without warning. And you’re instead voting Primate, for… what? Doing something that the town might think good?
And yes, I'm voting primate for doing something that the town might think good, that doesn't actually do the town much good. That seems to me like something scum might absolutely do.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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There's no explanation for his actions as scum, either--therefore, he was acting irrationally, or sloppy, and I don't see why scum would be more likely to be sloppy than town.emptyger wrote: I do not understand why so many people are treating Stoofer so leniently when there are no explanations for his actions as town.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I feel like we're talking past each other here. I also, generally, agree with DOTS' post above. Particularly the part about primate.mr. stoofer wrote: Well of course it is possible! The whole point about this game is you give your thoughts/opinions; and my thought/opinion is that one of them is Scum. Of course I don't know if I am right. That's the thing about Mafia, you don't know who the Scum are!-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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Maybe so, but again, a "page 1 lurker vote" has no particular benefit to scum, so the fact that he did make a mistake isn't a scumtell.
Speaking of people whose motivations for voting have shifted. . . primate is still scummy. And absent, apparently.primate wrote: Then there's all that stuff I said about Primate's original justification for giving his vote away having nothing to do with being informative, but to keep Emp on the site. This, I find most telling, especially in light of the lengths he's gone to trying to sell the "informative" angle.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I agree. . . that was intended as a point against emptyger, actually. Perhaps I was a tad too subtle.massive wrote:I don't think it's fair to call me hedging when I'm clearly on one of the bandwagons.
Unvote, vote emptyger.
I find primate's claim eminently believable, and emptyger's play has been making me feel off, particularly the attack on mathcam.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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Unvote.
Emptyger's mass claim proposal makes perfect sense. Assuming we can actually get people to support it, do we go in random order? I've always liked starting with one person at random, and then having them pick the next (scummiest) player. Or we could have primate pick the next person to claim, since he already has.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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Cam is right. I have a night action that potentially (I do need to stress potentially) explain primate's explanation of why he targeted emptyger. So I buy his power claim, at least. He could, of course, be scum still, which is why I support massclaim. Since we can't be certain what roles are pro-town and what roles are scum, we may as well get power claims out. Judging by what has been claimed, I think night actions are liable to be highly confirmable.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I would, as I've stated, support a massclaim, and under those circumstances, I'd gladly claim my precise role.massive wrote: TSN: What does the town have to provide to you in order for you to completely clarify what you are claiming / saying? Because you seem to be willing to hint about it an awful lot without any specifics. You also seem to expect the town to act based upon your hints.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I haven't waffled at all. I have information that may clear primate, depending on the exact nature of the setup.mneme wrote: Actually, TSN's waffled more than that. TSN has said he has info that -might- explain Primate's night action -- not info that actually does.
Exactly. I'm making a couple of assumptions here:emptyger wrote: I’ve addressed this elsewhere- see my recent posts to Fonz and KingPin. The “laundry list” being given will be useless. And regardless of whether there is a massclaim, the town should not be blind to the possibility of safeclaims.
A. The town is comprised mostly of power roles.
B. The nature of the roles is not necessarily indicative of alignment. Or, at least, pro-town roles are not necessarily indicative of pro-townness. Mine isn't, particularly. Primate's isn't. Greasy spot's wasn't.
The two scenarios are, then: Mafia have power roles as well that are not necessarily indicative of their alignment, in which case, we know and can monitor people's power roles.
Alternately, they don't. In which case the mafia will conspicuously not have roles, or will be forced to make them up.
So we should massclaim. And primate, since he's already claimed, should pick his most anti-town person to claim. And we should continue along those lines.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I'm not anticipating it being breaking. I'm anticipating it being useful.mneme wrote: In a badly designed game, a D1 massclaim can prove to be a breaking strategy -- but it's still not all that much fun to see all the magic too early, and usually, "BW-till-claim, then evaluate claim" is the right approach to achieving said massclaim anyway.
In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game.
Making a full roleclaim wouldn't go any further toward proving primate pro-town, because even if it would absolutely prove that primate was telling the truth about his role (and it wouldn't), we still wouldn't know what alignment that role is.mneme wrote: Huh? I was against Primate (but voting Stoofer) until TSN came forward, and am still against Primate, but wih TSN would give me something useful. I don't consider TSN more suspicious than Primate is -- but I do consider what he's given us so far completely useless in terms of proving Primate pro-town.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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That definitely sounds like saying you oppose massclaim based on reasons beyond the game to me.mneme wrote: Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims.
I don't have odds to give you. It depends on factors in the setup I don't know.mneme wrote: TSN: what are the odds that your action would have caused someone to be able to target Emptyger with an ability despite the redirection? Is this more of an 80% chance, or more of a 10% chance?
But I do have a question for you: I'm assuming you have a night action. If so, how do you select the one person you target?-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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I think it might very well be, if our town is comprised almost completely of power roles. I'll be curious to see who gets it and who doesn't. Also, based on that, do you at least understand why I can't be sure if I was responsible for primate's power failure?emptyger wrote: TSN:
After Primate- I’m not necessary sure that what you are referring to in mneme’s is damning. Not that there aren’t other problems with it…
That's a good catch, also, about how mneme attacked me over my "protown" defense.-
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mneme wrote: 1. Backed off on his defense of Primate and refused to make it useful, as well as refusing to tie his alignment to Primate's in any even vague fashion.
I don't know how many ways I can say it: I can't be sure that I affected primate in any manner. Also, initially I thought, "well, if I can corroborate primate's claim, he must be town." But then all the discussion regarding massclaim and how role may not relate to alignment changed my conclusion on that. So no, I can't prove primate's alignment. I have relevant information, but not enough setup knowledge to be certain precisely what it means.
2. Deliberately misrepresented my position (re massclaims) for rhetorical purposes. Including, at several points, lying. "In other news, we can ignore mneme's objections since he concedes it has nothing to do with whether it would be useful in the game." er, what?
Well, when you use a word like "regardless," that sort of implies that your empirical objections are not the primary reason for you objecting to massclaim. At the very least, you're coming from a biased position.
3. Asked his ridiculous leading question which seemed intended to elicit a half-claim for no reason.
Shrug. It could only be good once. Why not ask it? If everyone gets it, well, then no harm done, but if some people don't. . .
Not at all. Well, I mean, I do, because I think we should massclaim, but I wasn't asking for it in the context of that question.kingpin wrote: This sounds like you want a role claim from mneme. What?
As for the rest of that: Considering how many targets there may have been last night, the fact that emptyger and primate were targeted multiple times is hardly surprising. I'm sure a lot of people were targeted with effects that are slightly less noticeable and haven't been claimed, because the discussion has centered around primate.-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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The problem is, the potential to have roles be altered in unknown ways is so large it is, imo, going to prove nearly-impossible to tell what information our power roles have actually provided, unless we have a situation in which we can tell what exactly our power roles are doing to each other, which means massclaim.
Massive's case on me involved some sort of calculated plot in which I half-supported primate while hoping that everyone else would still lynch him. I'm still not entirely clear on how that would work. . . do you feel the same way about emptyger, massive?-
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You're right: Initially, I thought, "I can possibly clear primate, therefore he is probably telling the truth." Then, I realized, after all the discussion, that whether or not he is telling the truth about his ability (and he probably is), he still may very well be scum.
At least you're supporting the massclaim. That's good.-
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I don't really see the case on kingpin. I may say "player x is scummy" day 1, and I may also say, "if I am wrong about player x being scum, then player y's interactions with player x are scummy." Particularly on day 1, when I think you have to be kidding yourself a little to be certain, I don't have a problem with that.
Anyway, mneme: You're not interested in dropping the misinterpretation thing.
Let me define the word regardless for you:
So, when you say, "Regardless, this is a meta; it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims. "dictionary.com wrote: 1. having or showing no regard; heedless; unmindful (often fol. by of).
–adverb
2. without concern as to advice, warning, hardship, etc.; anyway: I must make the decision regardless.
—Idiom
3. regardless of, in spite of; without regard for: They'll do it regardless of the cost.
That means, "(without regard for) for my in-game reasons,it has nothing to do with judgement within a game, I just don't like D1 massclaims."
How can I have thought your primary reason for not supporting the massclaim had nothing to do with in-game reasons when that's exactly what you said?-
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TheSweatpantsNinja Mafia Scum
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Consider, hypothetically, if I were voting for stoofer: "regardless, it has nothing to do with in-game reasons, I don't like stoofer." I have to think someone would say something about that.
I'll concede that you might have meant something different than what I thought you meant if you'll concede that I wasn't somehow intentionally trying to twist your words.
Emptyger's claim made sense when I first read it, but I'm sort of souring on it. Or, at least, I'm souring on it making you scummy. You're still wrong about it me being scum, and you aren't going to convince me that any additional claim would be at all beneficial, except, of course, in the context of a massclaim, which would be a good idea.
Now, anyway, to respond to whatever direct arguments you made against massclaim back in the day:
I don't think its going to break the game, and I don't think (although I'd be pleasantly surprised) if it reveals scum. The problem is, judging by the set-up, its going to be impossible to determine whether claims are true or not, because clearly just about anything is going to be feasible. Having all the role information out in the open, with a lot of roles that are likely to be confirmable, while it might benefit scum in deciding who to kill, is likely to benefit us in being able to confirm night activities. (do you really think it likely that we have more valuable town roles like a cop?) Let mafia decide between killing a role switcher or a, um, whatever primate is (a reverse bus driver?).mneme wrote: A well designed game doesn't favor town in a too-early massclaim, because the scum, with extra info, can pick out info they find useful and ignore the rest, whereas the town cannot pick out mafia claims from town claims.-
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So, just because I couldn't be sure my role prevented primate's ability from working, means I should have stayed silent? Is that whatmassive wrote: If you had had information that you felt could clear Primate (or heck, Stoofer, since those were the two big bandwagons), would you have come forward? Would you have done so if you were unsure of your information and felt that it would make no difference?you'resaying? If so, why?-
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Way to dodge the question. We were discussing the likelihood of the accuracy of his claim, and it was notable that part of it didn't make sense, and I had information that potentially cleared that up. I think it would have been tremendously anti-town to not reveal that information, especially while I didn't have to reveal anything else.massive wrote: TSN: That's an impossible question to answer. You didn't reveal any information. You didn't, necessarily, contribute to the town NOT lynching Primate. It's hard to imagine what your goal was, so it's impossible to judge if you failed in that regard.-
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Johoohno
DOTS
Primate (I guess)
Moving past mneme, johoohno has been coasting through the game. He's asking questions, but he hasn't come up with many conclusions. Seems to me that he's sliding through the day, and without another particularly good choice.
DOTS is useless/absent/kinda scummy. Rather see him replaced, but we could do worse.-
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I don't know why I wouldn't be able to. I'd cast it tomorrow night, like stoofer or whoever suggested.emptyger wrote: TSN:
Will you definitely be able to cast the lynching vote before deadline?
That is to say, I will definitely be able to log on tomorrow night. I suppose I can't count out being fucked with in-game, but that seems unlikely.-
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This. Does one of the more vocal advocates against massclaim flipping scum change anyone else's mind?emptyger wrote: The point is, without collective action, it’s going to be up to individual discretion. And as much as you may dislike it, there will certainly be situations in which limited revelation is best. If you want to do something about it, don’t attack the player- you won’t get anywhere, because you are substituting your discretion (when you have limited knowledge of the situation) for that player’s. You have to get collective support.
I would be in favor of a better-late-than-never massclaim.
Also,Vote johoohno.-
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