SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[Solar Wind]

Ooba, I'm pretty sure FT just wanted to wait for Ceph to catch up because he enjoys playing with Ceph and wanted to see if he was town this game.

Why is your disagreement with him on reads mean that he is scum? I agree with him on all three to various extents though I'm not sure on Brantz.

[Solar Wind]

Agree that it doesn't make sense (re: TD). I don't know if it is necessarily a cover to protect Mantis but I can't follow his thought process around AP/Spades at all. And I didn't find anything remotely scummy in that Spades post he quoted so there's that.

[Solar Wind]

I haven't got to AP-town yet but if AP is town, I can potentially see scum-TD setting him up.

[Solar Wind]

Your tone towards AP felt otherwise.

Why make the link then if you don't think either are scum?

[Solar Wind]

FT's not getting lynched because he's town but thanks for attacking him that was incredibly transparently town so now I feel better about the townread on you and can focus on other people (@iHouse).

[Solar Wind]

*in a way that was incredibly transparently town.

[Solar Wind]

Okay, I read Ceph's catch up so far and have a few thoughts.

Please, no one comment on anything he said until he's fully caught up. I want to see how he catches up organically.

[Solar Wind]

Mask, do you have a posting restriction?

[Solar Wind]

Okay, so I'm not going to comment on Ceph's posts until he finishes like I promised. But I want to bring attention to AP's post that so far two people have said that they loved:

AP, please tell me you are kidding and not that you are scum again ready to mudsling into oblivion.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this, F16. You telling Tammy that you want to sort them is basically a non-statement. At least to me. The only potential reason I can see myself ever saying that is to try and look invested as scum. I'm not saying you are the same, cause you aren't, but from my PoV its just white-noise and it'd be refreshing to actually see a game in general where people don't just buddy up to people they like for better or worse. Stick your toes in the lake!, run through the sand barefoot! You don't have to always sit under the same tree and tell it that you really want to read it correctly this game. I dunno. Maybe I'm just the odd one out cause I like doing my own thing and I find it annoying when people (notably Especially the Lies) get pissy when I dont interact with them because we know each other. If you say things I find interesting or weird, I'll interact with you! Welp I wrote way too much about this since I don' even think the post in question is really relevant to your alignment in the first place.

This is better.

AP, please tell me you are kidding and not that you are scum again ready to mudsling into oblivion.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this, F16. You telling Tammy that you want to sort them is basically a non-statement. At least to me. The only potential reason I can see myself ever saying that is to try and look invested as scum. I'm not saying you are the same, cause you aren't, but from my PoV its just white-noise and it'd be refreshing to actually see a game in general where people don't just buddy up to people they like for better or worse. Stick your toes in the lake!, run through the sand barefoot! You don't have to always sit under the same tree and tell it that you really want to read it correctly this game. I dunno. Maybe I'm just the odd one out cause I like doing my own thing and I find it annoying when people (notably Especially the Lies) get pissy when I dont interact with them because we know each other. If you say things I find interesting or weird, I'll interact with you! Welp I wrote way too much about this since I don' even think the post in question is really relevant to your alignment in the first place.

This needs to be quoted somewhere, maybe hung up on a banner, maybe inscribed on a large stature beside the town hall.

Same post. Both Ceph and TSO seemed to have liked it and I love to know why.

I'll break down my issues with the post here

:

1)

You telling Tammy that you want to sort them is basically a non-statement.

This ignores context. This is in reference to my Post 77. This was a continuation of Ffery's Post 74 and was also meant to be a response to the interaction that I was having with Tammy up until that point. If this post was so scummy to AP, how did he completely ignore Ffery's Post 74 and Tammy's Post 53 which essentially do the same thing? He is selectively scumhunting by only picking at things he wants. Because if AP is town who legitimately believes that this is a non-statement, then he surely would have commented on these two posts as well as "non-statements."

I hope so! And I hope if so we find each other early and can work together. Ffery and I keep saying that we need to work together sooner when we're town reading each other to wreck scum teams. And I was telling Bulbazack last night that I haven't been happy with most of my town games from the past year and need to fix some of the things that have been bringing it down, and I'm hoping this is one of the games that I can turn some of that stuff around in.

Am I the only one who's not concerned? I didn't come into the game expecting to nail a read on Imperium down during confirmation stage. If you're town I want to figure it out quickly, though because I'd like to finally steamroll scum with you, Tammy.

2)

it'd be refreshing to actually see a game in general where people don't just buddy up to people they like for better or worse.

This is also pretty much nonsense. Saying that if someone is town, I want to figure it out quickly is not "buddying." People that know each other try to sort each other early. There's nothing odd or unusual about it. Also, if AP had an issue with my post, why does he not see the "buddying" that is inherent in Post 53? I disagree that it is buddying but from AP's definition, it should be - to him. So, there's more selective scumhunting and rhetoric.

3)

Stick your toes in the lake!, run through the sand barefoot! You don't have to always sit under the same tree and tell it that you really want to read it correctly this game.

Three issues with it. a) That's not what was happening. I was interacting with whoever was in the thread at the time. b) Tammy was the one responding to my post. c) Selective scumhunting that I mentioned earlier in that somehow Tammy wanting to sort me early escapes his notice entirely.

The rest of his post is filled with an irrelevant analogy about ETL and doing his own thing. He finishes by saying it is not relevant to my aligment. He has to. He can't repeat Tales of You by the book.

Now, I'm thinking either AP is scum or dumb town and some of the people agreeing with this horrendously bad analysis are scum. I would LOVE for TSO and Ceph to explain what they liked about this post.

[Solar Wind]

Mask, do you have a posting restriction?

Am I smarter than both your heads combined?

I'm wondering why every single one of your posts contains an explicit or implicit insult to the person you're responding to or responding about.

I read a completed game (from last year, so probably not all that relevant to your approach here), and the snark wasn't as pronounced.

[Solar Wind]

How are we focusing on Imperium at all? We think they are town. I'm maybe focusing on AP too much whereas Ffery is not sure about him. We'll vote when we're good and ready and agree on a vote. I'm normally slow and deliberate to vote. As for Ffery: do a site search for "chivying."

[Solar Wind]

That works for me.

[Solar Wind]

Yeah, I'm annoyed but you started this crap.

[Solar Wind]

But please tell me where you "defended" me because I'm dying to know.

[Solar Wind]

I'm just not even going to pretend you exist at this point. Can you please just answer that one last question and then stop talking about each other?

[Solar Wind]

And really, I put up with your crap this far because I thought at some point we'll get the old Tammy who was a fun person to be around back. I wouldn't have put up with this shit if it was anyone else. But I realized that's never going to happen so I give up. And pointing out how you treated me the past few games isn't telling you that you suck.

[Solar Wind]

I hope you are happy that you got to me.

Nothing

that I said in the wall was untrue and offensive. I hope you are happy to know that I actually was bothered by all your insults and condescension. I hope you are happy to know that yes, you have the ability to genuinely make someone else feel like crap. I hope it made you feel powerful and strong for it. I can't believe I actually thought you were a genuinely nice and understanding person when I first played with you and in the games that followed and knowing you has taught me how fucked up my moral compass is and terrible I'm at judging people's personalities. So, thank you for teaching me that. Thank you for being an awesome person to me at first and making me like you and showing your true colors.

[Solar Wind]

Not voting:

theaceofspades,

ZZZX, Solar Wind, VysePresident


Deadline a little over a week!


Why are you not voting?


SW

You seem to be awfully focused on Imperium What about the rest of the crew here? Personally I feel the froo froo tween the two hydrae is definitely T v T and a distraction here. Girls, girls you are both pretty. We need to get a handle on others.

I need to ISO FT did he really say multiple neighborhoods? I am only in one and I doubt the mod would put us in more than one.

Imperium's alignment was sorted practically during the confirmation phase. This isn't about alignments unfortunately.

TheAceOfSpades is the one who said something about multiple neighborhoods, I think. And clarified that he wasn't talking about this game, but about neighborhoods in general or something.

Unless I missed something. I've been pretty out of it with a migraine the last couple of days.

In case it's not obvious, this is ffery.

[Solar Wind]

I don't hate you. If you are wondering what it was you did that bothered me as much, you could just read my wall. There's nothing in there that I regret typing or I didn't feel was a direct response to something you did. I may have been more abrasive than necessary but I'm fairly certain you would have been offended no matter how much I sugarcoated my thoughts so I was being honest.

I can agree not to argue about it anymore so this game can be peaceful.

[Solar Wind]

But good to know you trash-talk me at meets. Now I feel less bad about that wall.

[Solar Wind]

Also, fwiw, you said BEFORE my wall that you weren't going to post in the neighborhood, not after. I assume it was because of the exchange between us which basically went:

F-16: I can read AP well.
Tammy: I don't understand the question.
F-16: There was no question.
Tammy: I get that but I was giving you an opportunity to exercise the privilege of interacting with me.

At that point, I had no intention of discussing shit so I didn't. And then you decided not to post. If you had simply asked me "how do you read AP?" or "give me some of the markers that use to read AP." I would have obliged.

[Solar Wind]

@tammy: grow thicker skin and stop making everything about yourelf.
@falcon: stop pestering tammy. It's a damn game. If you want to troll people go on 4chan.

I'm done posting anything more. But please don't do this. This is not actually helpful mediation.

[Solar Wind]

Tammy,

I know you said you wouldn't post in the neighborhood again, but since this is mostly non-game-related stuff between you and f-16, it might be better to hash it out there and not make the rest of the game read it today.

I don't think anything's being said that helps people read either of our slots.

But, mostly I'd just like to get back to trying to figure this game out. Preferably with input from you as well as Nacho.

[Solar Wind]

Um no. It went me talking to you about AP. Me saying I can't read him well and don't know what to look for because I've only seen him as town once and that was Anything Goes where he spammed the hell out of the game. You responded that you couldn't understand why I was hesitant to read AP because he's so easy to read. I did give you the opportunity to turn it into a conversation by saying that I didn't know what you were asking me because it didn't follow. You told me you couldn't understand why I didn't have a read there because he's easy to read, right after I said I don't know how to read him. You were telling me what to think. I asked for ffery's thoughts, which you wouldn't give me and said she'd respond even though I'd told you what Nacho and I had discussed, so why you couldn't talk about those thoughts when you're so incredulous I didn't have a read there didn't make sense to me.

It became clear that you weren't actually going to talk to me but tell me what to think.

You misinterpreted this completely. I figured if you were trying to work with me on AP, you would try and see where I was coming from since you know I was right in Tales when you weren't. You didn't. I wasn't telling you what to think. I wanted you to listen to me. My initial comment wasn't even meant for just you. It was a remark of my annoyance that people are townreading AP for bad reasons like writing walls. It is just that you are determined to be offended by what I say.

I don't hate you. If you are wondering what it was you did that bothered me as much, you could just read my wall. There's nothing in there that I regret typing or I didn't feel was a direct response to something you did. I may have been more abrasive than necessary but I'm fairly certain you would have been offended no matter how much I sugarcoated my thoughts so I was being honest.

I can agree not to argue about it anymore so this game can be peaceful.

I did read the wall. I got it. I suck, you can read me better than I can read you, I word things wrong, I don't know how to reachout properly and do it in a way that hurts other people's feelings, and I'm the reason town lost Tales of and if I weren't there town would have won. Think I got the gist of just how much I suck!

Thank you for your honesty!

I'm sorry but don't play the high moral ground with me. I wouldn't have listed out the games where I read you correctly if you hadn't addressed me in the mocking tone that you have. If you had just said that I should be able to read you, I woudn't have felt the need to PROVE that I can read you.

You can lie to me about the reachout being for both Ffery and me but you can't lie to yourself. You know that you wanted to work with Ffery and just wanted to leave that in there hoping that it would bother me. And really wrecking scum was what we used to do.

I also wouldn't have said all that about Tales if you hadn't said the things that you did when AP was mudslinging and zMuffin was raging.

@tammy: grow thicker skin and stop making everything about yourelf.
@falcon: stop pestering tammy. It's a damn game. If you want to troll people go on 4chan.

There's literally a 50,000 word unprovoked essay dedicated to the tune of Tammy sucks in my neighborhood.

It wasn't unprovoked. It was a response to your response to my wall in the game thread which in turn was a response to your concerns about me.

[Solar Wind]

I stand by what I said about you egging on zMuffin and AP in Tales by piling on the insults and agreeing with zMuffin's characterization of my playstyle and insulting my townplay to AP while explaining to him that I was town among a ton of other things.

I stand by my comments on you calling me names right after I replaced into Serum and Steel even though I was genuinely pretending to scumhunt you and not trying to piss you off. That ties into the general idea you have that you are allowed to scumhunt people but if anyone questions you, they are horrible.

I still stand by the fact that you were needlessly condescending in the dead PT of Mafia on the Air but I admit I was probably spoiled by Mastin's encouragement in Tales of You dead PT and learned to expect that people will cheer you and support you in dead PTs so your posts came as a shock. I still didn't expect that the worst criticisms would come from someone who was hydra'ing with me.

I stand by the fact that I wasn't unjustified to be pissed off at you when you addressed me in that mocking tone and shoehorned Malakittens's method of reading you when my track record at reading you is pretty fucking awesome. And I wouldn't have pulled up a list of games if you hadn't done that.

[Solar Wind]

Nope! You are an amazing, pure, angel with absolutely no capability to hurt anyone else.

[Solar Wind]

And FYI, it wasn't unprompted. It was the result of you saying that you wouldn't post in the neighborhood again AFTER we had resolved our argument and apologized just because something else I said offended you in a new and creative way. I'm sick and tired of feeling like every single thing I say would offend you. I don't seem to be the only one as you have a track record of replacing out of games at the slightest offense. And yes, I know the pattern is continuing. I did read the game where you almost caught Thor and Orc had to come and lead the lynch for you.

[Solar Wind]

Yes. Fully agree. Let's agree never to mention each other again even in passing.

[Solar Wind]

You say this like you expect Rach to immediately back down and defer to you. I kinda want to ask if that's the case, but actually it has very little to do with my read of you or her, so I guess it's neither here nor there... you can still answer if you feel like it though!

I usually speak up when one of my townreads takes a "he's scum" position on another townread. Offhand I can't remember ever

not

speaking up unless the player's case for their vote made me want to soak on it or rethink.

I wanted her to know I disagreed with that vote. I'd hope she would take my opinion into account. I was leaning pretty strongly town on bitmap, mostly due to stuff he posted in the game thread, though his posts in the neighborhood were more reasons to think he's town.

I would love it if you would be more of a presence for a variety of reasons.

I was a strong presence until about 3 calendar days ago, I think. My migraine started calming down just in time for yesterday's blow-up. :/

f-16 and I both plan to work on reads lists today.

Was there something specific you wanted?

[Solar Wind]

f-16 has a strong townread of FT. I think I'd be leaning pretty town on my own, but that's a read where I feel f-16 is more likely to get it right than I am.

[Solar Wind]

Jesus falcon.

Stop.

I hadn't posted for hours up until that point.

[Solar Wind]

Do you think you are particularly good at reading Ffery?

Also, if you wanted the argument to stop, why wasn't your post accompanied by a similar appeal towards Imperium/wanting Nacho to post more?

[Solar Wind]

It feels like you wanted to stoke the argument rather than mediate. I found it odd that of the people that posted after, Rach and Vezok winded up appealing to both of us, and you popped in with a "falcon stop," let Ffery post more. The others weren't effective at mediating but they were trying to.

[Solar Wind]

I think it's relevant to your alignment but I'll let you catch up so we can comment on other things.

[Solar Wind]

I don't see how you can read the past few pages and make the conclusion you did as opposed to telling us both to stop (which while lame is what I would a normal person to do like two other players did), or ignore it entirely which would have been preferable. Your post just felt like discrediting and manipulating what happened to scum advantage.

[Solar Wind]

You made Post 1336 which makes no sense at all in context and actually fits with scum motive from you. If you can't see why I would think that, regardless of your alignment here, I don't know what to tell you.

[Solar Wind]

Sorry, you're gonna have to explain because I'm not seeing some revelation here that explains your thoughts. This isn't out-of-game stuff.

[Solar Wind]

I don't get why you are stonewalling here and I can easily see you do it alignment regardless. What is important is you explain the context of your comment because it is actually relevant to me figuring out your alignment. We aren't in any other games together so it can't be about ongoing games.

[Solar Wind]

You won't take "you don't want me to explain" for an answer?

I

do

want you to explain so no I won't.

[Solar Wind]

I keep thinking about stuff that could make sense like multiple neighborhoods and stuff but none of it is actually making sense. You came in and posted just to me (when I hadn't posted for hours), at odds with the two other people who intervened in the conflict and pretty much exactly what you did in Tales, but contrasted with what you did in Serum and Steel. So, yeah, I'm pretty intent on getting you to explain it and I think you understand why I'm pushing on it and why I think I could glean something about your alignment from it. So, just explain it and don't make us go back and forth for another whole page. And you know if I didn't think it was alignment relevant, I probably would have dropped the issue a while ago when you first wanted to drop it.

[Solar Wind]

That's dumb because it really isn't. Tales and Serum and Steel weren't my fault. The discussion thread probably was. That's a pretty ridiculous interpretation.

[Solar Wind]

I don't think anyone would legitimately believe what you did. I do think scum are more likely to take the side of someone who OMGUSes a lot.

[Solar Wind]

Um, Tales called. They want Fox Hound back.

[Solar Wind]

Even if you are town here, telling me you wouldn't manipulate a personal argument to your benefit IF you were scum is just wow.

[Solar Wind]

Okay. Reasonably confident you are scum here.

[Solar Wind]

You've played in all the games that I've mentioned. There is literally no way you could come away with an impression that I was being a dick. Unless you think replacing out of multiple games at the same time because they got frustrated means that person causing the frustration is a dick. It happens in mafia all the time. Tales is self-explanatory really.

[Solar Wind]

Well, you are scum so idc. I'd be sad if you are somehow town and misinterpreted events so badly that you came away with that impression but I don't think that's very likely.

[Solar Wind]

But you are welcome to point out where I've been a dick besides the Micro Queue.

[Solar Wind]

I'm not biased. Every argument that happened that between me and Tammy is objectively her fault. She just makes herself look good by pretending to offer apologies (like that last Imperium post). I don't think a rational person could come away with the conclusion that you have.

[Solar Wind]

Players of SMITE Role Madness, pick the odd one out. I even separated them with spaces.

@tammy: grow thicker skin and stop making everything about yourelf.
@falcon: stop pestering tammy. It's a damn game. If you want to troll people go on 4chan.

Tammy then talk to Dram about it he is the mod, bringing it up here in the game does not help us figure out who the scum is. All it is doing is causing drama since we can't see it unless we are in the same neighborhood. I understand why you are upset, but we really need to focus on the game.

I want to comment on something unrelated to diffuse but yeah, I got nothin. Sooo

Solarwind/Imperium dust up could be scum distancing to justify not interacting.

I don't see these players going to such measures as town. Granted, I don't know their playstyle that much so that's kinda weak, but they're both experienced veterans and know better than to be so blatantly hostile to this extent... I think.

Would somebody that knows them better chime in on this?

@iHouse

: I don't think they're distancing.

Halfway through reading the game. Not even going to pretend to offer something useful. I hope the hydra battle is distancing, because the alternative is really depressing.

You may want to skim some of that back and forth.

Jesus falcon. Stop.

Was there something specific you wanted?

Not really, I just think you'd be easier to deal with at present because you aren't throwing a fit and S&S has taught me not to even try reading F-16.

[Solar Wind]

@ FT, I really don't care about you explaining to Ceph why I'm town because I am town and you are town. I really want to focus more on Ceph's actual alignment.

[Solar Wind]

Okay. Nvm. I need to head out btw.

[Solar Wind]

I have no clue if Ceph is town or scum at this point. I believe his posting was genuine though. So, if he's town, he's telling the truth and if he's scum, he's telling the truth.

I had no idea you had a grudge against me though Cephrir. I was pretty excited to see you join the game and was looking forward to seeing you as town. But if you did, you could just avoid me if you want.

[Solar Wind]

But anyone who thinks my arguments with the T-word were my fault seriously needs to do a reality check.

[Solar Wind]

sorry to hear about your dog eyestott.

Hey so this is ffery.

Ceph, what is your Mastin read?

[Solar Wind]

I don't know, I'm basically not played against ffery scum. I really want to though, I've always wanted to try my hand at catching her.

NY 167.

[Solar Wind]

I'm finding it difficult to get back into this game.

People are townreading the Mask and I don't really understand why.

I'm kinda townreading mastin.

I need to dig through TD's posts again. I'll work on that tonight.

[Solar Wind]

You can't be serious. I couldn't stop thinking about this all through class and lunch and it made me so pissed off I wanted to open this game and vent about it. I'm just speechless right now.

[Solar Wind]

First off I want to point out that the T-word has been slandering me hoping that people will dislike me which is what she wants. Why the fuck can't she just go her own way and leave me the hell alone? I used to think Ceph was an awesome person as well but I bet she whined to him (and others) about me over Skype and meets and that's why people are taking her side. It explains why Natirasha was unable to admit that he made a mistake with the setup in Serum and Steel. It explains why Pieguyn blamed me and me alone for our argument in Serum and Steel. It explains why even Nacho has been distant with me because repeatedly hearing shit about someone makes some of it stick.

For fucks sake, just leave me alone. After this game, we will both pretend that the other doesn't exist. Within this game, I'll only talk about you if it necessary to sort someone's alignment. I don't understand why you need to make it so that try to get everyone to hate me. Why can't we just go our own separate ways? And you think you've got it bad. Well, I'm feeling the same thing except I don't have people telling me that they love me and want me to stay. So congrats on manipulating people into thinking that this is all my fault. Your punching bag analogy applies both ways. I felt the same way when I replaced into Serum and Steel and called me attitude boy and told me not to interact with you just because I was pretending to figure out your alignment. I was scum there so I sucked it up and you can't really manipulate someone without interacting with them anyways. But Tales was the worst. I'll never forgive you for Tales and how you dealt with it afterwards. Every single time I opened the Tales thread was just to see someone I liked and respected being insulting to me in some new way it was miserable. Please just leave me alone. You don't even understand why I wrote that wall. You think I'm crazy that I'd write a wall to hurt someone else's feelings? And now you're trying to get me banned. Gee thanks. I bet Mina will do it for you because moderation is a joke anyways.

[Solar Wind]

I'm done with this argument as long as that person doesn't pull the sympathy card again. Hey Ceph, screw off. If you hate me, then don't replace into games I'm in. I don't care if you say you don't. Just you supporting her and telling me to stop proves that you do. Same goes for anyone who thinks that she's right. If she told you anything about me, she's lying.

[Solar Wind]

The last person who told me they'd be more active tomorrow was scum. :/

Do you mean calendar day tomorrow?

[Solar Wind]

@ Ceph, why exactly do you want to hug AP?

[Solar Wind]

F-16, I think AP's recent posts are town.

I've been thinking this for a while but didn't want to say anything until Ceph caught up. I agree. AP's posts aren't as scummy as I first thought and the tone of his interaction with me also felt different from how he interacted with me/us in Tales. I'm not sure how strong the read is but I'll go over his ISO tonight.

[Solar Wind]

These are ffery-reads. We haven't fully synched on our reads, though I think there's a fair bit of convergence here.

TOWN TOWN TOWN

16. Imperium (Tammy and Nacho) - separate town reads on both heads.

23. Bitmap - really liked the way he went about sorting me and his reasons for towning me based on both neighborhood and game thread interactions. We have played 3 games together (all newbies). In one he was flipped scum before I joined the game in 3p lylo, and metaing him for interactions with his scumteams helped nail down my read on his scumbuddy. In one he was scum and gave me a very easy townread on day 1 which flipped to trying unsuccessfully to get me lynched the next day. And in the 3rd game he was town, and was offput by my lack of overt meta dives and scumread me for not doing stuff he thought was emblematic of town-me. His point for townreading me here was a feature of my townplay, but not one that he's seen a lot of in our tiny list of mutual games. And he did some set-up to make an interaction happen in a way that would elicit something he sees as an aspect of my town play. That looks like an awful lot of work to go through as scum to develop a fake read.

14. FourTrouble - his reads and pushes have the kind of nuance that I've come to expect from his town games, and he's pointing up stuff I'm noticing in the game at the point in the game where I notice it - which is not a super-powerful town tell for me, but it's something that I weigh into a read when I know that the player and I tend to synch that way when we're both town. I don't have experience with scum-FT, so I'm relying to a fair extent on F-16's read of him as well.

24. Xombie - I think his reaction to MS' gambit was pretty town. I am basing this somewhat on how I personally would react to such a gambit. I also liked his reaction to being scumread based on his confirmation stage play. He's consistent and thoughtful. This is something of a gut-read, but if I were replacing into this game and his slot had needed replacing, I would have taken the slot without hesitation. (I really should read every single iso in every game I play with this mindset, but I never do).

TOWN

Farside22 - her pushes and reasoning look town to me. Would consider moving her up one, but I have very little experience playing with her and haven't exhaustively meta'd her so this is not a strongly informed read.

7. -Blonde- - I came away from our interaction thinking he's town. His assumptions held together, and I liked that he voted us on a whim/to piss me off, and then was disappointed that I didn't care about the vote. I think that was genuine, though probably not scumhunting/trying to provoke an alignment indicative reaction. His style of play isn't srsface, and that's something I don't read well, which is why he's here and not in my top group.

17. RachMarie - lots of town notes here. I like her questioning the townreads she picked up early in the game. My one question mark is why is Mastin scumreading her, but since I'm not sure mastin's town, I'm not weighing that read heavily atm.

19. Ankamius - This is another read where I had to iso. I like his intereactions with/about Imperium. I like his reactions to metal sonic (and the point about MS forcing masons out in a recent game is something I'd missed earlier). I have it down as a minor point to meta to see if his annoyance about the gameplay during the confirmation phase has shown up in other games since he called it a pet peeve.

KINDA TOWN

1. Angrypidgeon - I think sitewide he's a little disengaged with mafia right now, and this game has that sense to me. I thought his reaction to F-16's push looked townish. More data, and reactions to recent game stuff would be nice, and I think this read will probably move up.

9. Ooba - this read has faded a little. I know ooba tends to be a quieter player, but this still feels like low-content. though there's definitely content and some of it has resonated strongly.

10. ZZZX - low content, but I feel like there have been a few town notes.

15. Cephrir

Mantisdreamz, Flames682

- After playing a game where Ceph was really, really obvtown to me, I am a little sad that I didn't get that sense from him this time. But, there 's a relaxed playfulness to his catch-ups that I like and I kinda think are town. I think the fact that he's read my slot without forming a read on me personally is going to make it hard to firm this read up.

3. Mastin2

Dcane

- there's something I look for in scum-Mastin that I'm not seeing here. I feel like this is a negative space read, but at least I'm reading her. This is the first game in quite a while where I feel like I have a read of my own here, and am not depending on a hydra partner.

5. Theaceofspades - I was going to put him in the next lower group but post 1280 gives me town vibes. So far, this is the only read where I've gone back to look at the iso.

vezokpiraka - I see the reasons he's being town read and they make sense to me. It's disconcerting to have to read someone I've played a few games with this way, but when I look at him through my usual lenses he always gives me bad vibes. there are just not many points of congruence in how we approach games.

21. iHouse (House and Eyestott)

House

- on his own, I had House as middling town. The hydra is a less clear-to-me read, plus I kinda have this "why" thing going on regarding him switching to a hydra, specifically a hydra with eyestott.

4. Skybird

BRantz

- BRantz was a slight town lean before the replace-out. I liked his push on vezok and I felt 607 and 659 both show a town mindset in terms of how he's questioning people. I want to meta Skybird. I modded one game where she played and thought she gave off town vibes as town, but I knew that in advance watching her play.


MAYBE TOWN

8. TiphaineDeath - this read has faded. If there's scum in our neighborhood, it pretty much has to be him. I was/am open to the possibility that our neighborhood is all town, though. One of the things that bugged me was the way he went after Metal Sonic right away. This has happened in every game they've played together with me, regardless of his alignment, so it comes down to a question of whether the read makes sense. Right now, I dunno if it does.

2. Metal Sonic - some of his play has given me town vibes (his early push on me, mostly), but the whole mason thing left a really bad taste in my mouth.

18. The Mask - this is a pretty null read. I feel like the abrasiveness is an over the top affectation, and there's very little meat beyond that in his iso.

T S O - not seeing much scumhunting here and it bothers me. I'd consider moving him down one.

25. VysePresident - there's not a lot to go on here, but I modded a newbie game he recently played. He was way more involved, and was right in there developing stances as soon as he replaced in. So, I know he can catch up in a game he replaces into. I feel like he should be able to do that here, but this game's pace is fast, and many interactions are deeply affected by prior games. I'm comparing his play to say mask or blonde, and he comes off more apologetic. I started this write up in kinda town, but in writing it down, I think he belongs in maybe town.


NOT SO TOWN

11. PeregrineV - I feel like pere always winds up here on day 1 due to heavy-duty lurking. It seems like even heavier duty than normal, though, with very little content

6. Beastcharizard - reading his iso, it's all posturing with no reasoning whatsoever about his stances. I could say the same about Mask, but in Mask's case I don't have any experiential meta to say this is off his usual town play. In beast's case I do.


--------

usual disclaimer: this list is not in seriatim order.

There are some maybe town players I'd be willing to lynch, but there's not a place at least as that group is currently ordered where I'd draw a line. After f-16 and I do some more synch that will probably change.

[Solar Wind]

Given how thin my bottom two groups are, I feel pretty sure there's at least one scum somewhere in the top 3 groups. Maybe more than one. I just don't have a strong sense of who atm and I'm not going to try to force it.

[Solar Wind]

ffery - if you're relying on F-16 for scum meta and you haven't synched with F-16 putting him in the "very town" category is wrong and seems quite hasty.

That's not one of the reads we might need to synch on. Pretty far from it.

[Solar Wind]

Your bottom list is also rather lacklustre and having Beast and PV in there seems like you POE'd them into it, which is a terrible method of having scumreads (they're de facto scumreads if they're at the bottom for me) on day one of a large. I disagree with both. I am not completely townreading Beast but I disagree with Beast-scum as of now.

After Advance Wars, I don't worry so much about whether my scumreads lack pizzazz. The random number generator doesn't care about pizzazz.

With pere, if he gives me any reason at all to not scumread him on day 1, I usually take it. He's not done that so far this game. And Beast has town notes I look for. I'm not seeing them here.

Calling it PoE is a nice discredit and all, but doesn't suggest to me that you've got reasons to think either of them are town.

[Solar Wind]

Can you go more in depth on that read?

pretty sure you can get all sorts of depth with iso and "ctl-f FT".

[Solar Wind]

snerk.

yeah that read moves a little townward.

[Solar Wind]

@ Aeronaut, why do you think Metal Sonic as scum would claim different roles in the neighborhood and in the game thread? Isn't that just asking to be lynched when his neighbors out it immediately upon realizing it as you have done?

What do you mean by "Fourtrouble seems to be just typing what he thinks others want him to type." Elaborate on your read there.

[Solar Wind]

He just gave a soft an agreeable answer.

@Solar, well, in the neighborhood, he asks BRantz and my predecessor to claim their roles, and then hardcore avoids claiming his own. When pestered, he says Jack of all Trades, which means he can Roleblock, Protect, and superprotect, whatever that means.

He used his "daycop" to try to incriminate Xombie casually

Why, do you really think he's a daycop?

Have you never seen a gambit? Also, have you played in a game where there were day abilities before here or on another site? Have you seen town fake-claim day cops/day vigs or any other sort of day abilities for shits and giggle? I'm going to look through your games obviously but I want an answer from you.

[Solar Wind]

This is the other head (the one he threatened to daycop.

Of course we don't think he's a daycop.

[Solar Wind]

So he's obviously lying about at least one of those roles. It's not like he felt safer in the hood, he even said that he thought scum was in it a few times.

I don't see a scenario where he feels the need to fake claim early D1.

Not to mention, he explicitly tries to fake a guilty on Xombie.

Where is the town motivation for that?

What is the scum motivation for that?

Have you seriously never seen town gambit on day 1 before? Players do it to garner reactions they can analyze.

I have other reasons to be concerned about MS, but gambiting a fake guilty on day 1 isn't one of them.

[Solar Wind]

Also, did you say that your neighborhood is only 3 players?

[Solar Wind]

So he's obviously lying about at least one of those roles. It's not like he felt safer in the hood, he even said that he thought scum was in it a few times.

I don't see a scenario where he feels the need to fake claim early D1.

Not to mention, he explicitly tries to fake a guilty on Xombie.

Where is the town motivation for that?

What is the scum motivation for that?

Have you seriously never seen town gambit on day 1 before? Players do it to garner reactions they can analyze.

I have other reasons to be concerned about MS, but gambiting a fake guilty on day 1 isn't one of them.

Yes, because MS is very obviously a very well thought out and manipulative player.

There's more scum motivation than town motivation IMO. What was he gonna do if people believed it, get Xombie to L-1 and then say "Well, whoops, I was lying."

Nah.

Assume MS is scum:

So you think that a 1v1 on day 1 with a player who looked to be an easy mislynch at that point, at the cost of being the day 2 lynch (or night 1 vig kill) is sound scum strategy?

I am not fond of gambits, and I learned mafia on a site where the site meta was extremely punitive of town gambiting. Even I have come to see their occasional utility - in the right hands - in town play, though I still am not fond of them.

I have other reasons to be concerned about MS,

What are your other reasons for being concerned?

Primarily the way he immediately labeled beast and TSO "masons" out loud. I don't see town motivation for doing that.

Also, I don't understand him saying he was happy to be super-jailkept today/tonight given the abilities you say he claimed in the neighborhood.

Those abilities could also be lies, and I can see town and scum reasons to lie in a contested neighborhood.

[Solar Wind]

What was towny about his last few posts? I don't follow that.

It's a gut thing. After looking at his completed game from a year ago, I wondered if his posts this game indicated a posting restriction. He brushed off that question, which didn't completely rule out it being a PR, but did knock down one reason I could see for his tone/content here being so different. He was not a wall poster in the other game, but his stances had more reasoning than here (aside from his stance on you - which I disagree totally with, but it's not a one-dimensional observation about your play, and you are not an easy target this game IMO, so I feel like scum looking to make a push on a player might choose easier pickings).

When someone breaks a PR pattern, the post is obviously not reworked or carefully considered. It's off the cuff, and the tone is critical because I know it's a pretty pure reaction/comment.

When I read that post and then the next one, I got town vibes.

So, he moves up from my null/null-scum pile on that basis.

[Solar Wind]

Aeronaut

You can't vote MS

or Mastin

today based on a PR action that took them both out of play for D 1.

How about putting your vote somewhere where it counts? In other words who else are you scum reading besides MS?

His PR was annoying but it does not seem like something that would be given to scum. And his action was mod confirmed. So it was not a fake claim.

Or Mastin?

Did I miss something? Bitmap is the one who took MS and himself out of the game for D1.

And how was

MS'

action confirmed? What action? Bitmap is the one who targeted MS.

[Solar Wind]

Plus Vezok's dream.

Dreams are a legit form of scumhunting.

You didn't comment on Rach's post. What did you think she was talking about?

[Solar Wind]

There are two things in that post that don't fit what I've seen in the game state.

[Solar Wind]

Also, grumble grumble stomping through lines of questioning grumble.

[Solar Wind]

He just gave a soft an agreeable answer.

@Solar, well, in the neighborhood, he asks BRantz and my predecessor to claim their roles, and then hardcore avoids claiming his own. When pestered, he says Jack of all Trades, which means he can Roleblock, Protect, and superprotect, whatever that means.

He used his "daycop" to try to incriminate Xombie casually

Why, do you really think he's a daycop?

Have you never seen a gambit? Also, have you played in a game where there were day abilities before here or on another site? Have you seen town fake-claim day cops/day vigs or any other sort of day abilities for shits and giggle? I'm going to look through your games obviously but I want an answer from you.

Don't be avoiding questions.

Do you think he's a daycop?

Now that you've had your question answered, please answer mine.

[Solar Wind]

Here are the post I have in regards to why ace is scum.
started here
what I noted about his play
issues summorized

I agree with your description of Ace's play but it feels more like you describing sub-optimal town play than scum play.

[Solar Wind]

You are right it is Bit and MS that are out not Mastin, carry on.

What MS action was mod confirmed?

[Solar Wind]

ffery-head here.

Rach totally getting one of the biggest events of the game day wrong on two counts worries me a little, and that's affected my sureness about the read. There are a few things f-16 and I need to still talk about, including her recent posts.

Mastin worries me a little, too, especially if multiball turns out to be a thing.

[Solar Wind]

Votecount 15: Accurate votecounts are hard.

Theaceofspades (8): AngryPidgeon, Farside22, vezokpiraka, mastin2, xombie, PeregrineV, Cephrir, Rachmarie
FourTrouble (1): The Mask, iHouse
vezokpiraka (1): Skybird
TiphaineDeath (1): FourTrouble
AngryPidgeon (1): theaceofspades
Rachmarie (1): Ooba
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
iHouse (0): beastcharizard

Not voting: ZZZX, Solar Wind, VysePresident, imperium, TSO, Ankamius, Aeronaut


Reminder that it's 12 to lynch and not 13.

Deadline 6 days and 8 hours!

I'm intrigued that Skybird was concerned about the error with the votes on theaceofspades, but completely spaced the other anomaly in the votecount.

It makes me think that she might already know about why that particular anomaly exists and thus didn't need to ask about it.

Which, if true, would result in two scum reads for me.

I see it. It appears to be your vote based on earlier vcs.

Also, what Imperium said. Rach was the one who pointed out the other anomaly.

[Solar Wind]

I was looking at ISOs fery which is why I missed it, and how does making mistakes have anything to do with my alignment?

What isos were you looking at?

[Solar Wind]

Your vote doesn't appear to count either.

[Solar Wind]

I don't understand how you confused bitmap with mastin from reading those isos.

[Solar Wind]

after a few hours sleep on it, I think Rach's confusion is one of those shiny things I latch onto and have trouble letting go of. Still town reading her.

More from us in a bit, probs.

[Solar Wind]

AP, can you talk about your Xombie read?

[Solar Wind]

My biggest scum read in Cephrir as well. That's probably where our vote is going to wind up once I finish re-reading the game and post my reads.

[Solar Wind]

Just because someone looks superficially townie doesn't mean they are.

I'm in the middle of several things right now and falcon will probably be able to explain it better than I can at the moment anyway.

That's a terribad post unless you have some decent information to back it up.

There will no doubt be a metric fuckton of reads and meta hitting the thread shortly. F-16 is working on his reads magnum opus. Nacho and Tammy are familiar with the games F-16 and I remember all too well where scum-Ceph was a townread for much of the town, as well as a few other nightmarish games.

You can be a judge of whether that makes a compelling case.

[Solar Wind]

Play in real time now?

I dunno if you're my strongest scumread. But, you scare the fuck out of me when your iso feels so laid back.

[Solar Wind]

I would simply like to remark that I am surprised no one else has noticed how terrible TD's posts have become.

*raises hand*
I did!

I just haven't done anything about it. (Similar, but to a much lesser extent, to my Rach read. No, that read hasn't changed.)

Are you happy with the current gamestate?

[Solar Wind]

Sadly, my role does not include a double-vote. (Guess who?)

Sadly, my role does not include a double-vote. (Guess who?)

stahp.

Sadly, my role does not include a double-vote. (Guess who?)

stahp.

Well if my scumhunting god abilities included a double-vote, you'd have seen it by now, no?

This kinda jumps out at me in retrospect.

It looks like Mastin is calling attention to the vc and house doesn't like it here.

iHouse, the vote anomaly had already been in the vc's for a while at that point, so your post 1713 doesn't fit the chronology.

[Solar Wind]

Cephrir is not scum. He's being pushed by scum as cw to ace.

I told Ffery in our hydra PT that this was exactly what I wanted to do. Except we're town.

[Solar Wind]

Play in real time now?

I dunno if you're my strongest scumread. But, you scare the fuck out of me when your iso feels so laid back.

Laid back? That's a scum tell for me? That would be news to me. If anything I think playing scum against this player list would make me nervous :p because if anyone can catch me it's you and mastin.

laid back is a thumbnail sketch. When you're scum you look more comfortable and confident. When you're town, IME you are more earnest-looking, or you're apathetic. It's a meshing of both sometimes.

This game, your demeanor and stance feel more like your scum games. I'm still kinda trying to figure out how your play in Serum and Steel compares, and I'm wondering if like in that game, if I'd been reading your early posts without "Cephrir" attached to them, how I"d feel about your contribution.

The sudden deflation and fatalism doesn't feel organic, but maybe because real life.

[Solar Wind]

I don't know what "I can do that I guess" refers to.

p-edit ah. ok.

[Solar Wind]

What do you think about AP?

[Solar Wind]

What do you think about AP?

I currently have him as barely a townread. I think I'll want to go over him though before too long (perhaps day 2), because I have the utmost respect for his ability to sound really town. I wouldn't mind discussing what to look for with him with someone who feels they're good at it, as I have almost zero experience with town AP.

I reread the four most recent completed games he and I played this weekend (excepting Tales of You for now because fuck that game, and f-16 has it practically memorized anyway). 3 town and 1 scum. Prior to those 3 town games, every game we'd played, he was scum. What I'm left with is that he's not really playing like any of them here.

When I think about his contribution here I start to worry about scum-AP. When I go back and read his actual posts, I see glimmers of town.

[Solar Wind]

Do you have much game experience with TD?

[Solar Wind]

I've played 3 games with him, but none of them are recent. His scum game was the oldest one and it ended over a year ago. In that game he was a lurkfuck on day 1, and he tunneled Metal Sonic most of the game. It was multiball, so his scumhunting MS could have been genuine, though MS was town.

I have a light townread there.

[Solar Wind]

These are F-16 reads. Ffery agrees with most of them except the read strength is different. AngryPidgeon is a major point of disagreement among a few other minor ones. I'll post on Cephrir in a separate post.

TOWN (Strongest -> Weakest)

:

1) FourTrouble

- Strongest townread for me and it is partly meta-based as I think he's playing beyond the level he's capable of as scum. The points against him I've read so far (one-liners, questions going nowhere) are all stuff that's either the core of his towngame or being misinterpreted.

2) Imperium

- Would be surprised if they are scum here. Mostly based on Tammy's scumhunting early game matching her towngame. No one seems to disagree so I'm not going to elaborate much on this.

3) Ooba

- His Xombie read in Post 122 resonated as did his readslist in Post 417. I really, really like the sequence of Post 555 and Post 556 where he expresses townreads on TD for his entrance; and Imperium for Tammy's suspicion of us. This might seem counter-intuitive but what I've noticed about Ooba is that he tends to strongly townread players that defy the status quo. In FF10, he immediately townread me, in part due to our suspicion of Dainn who was a near universal townread at the time. He also had suspicions of universal townread Seelie Seraph later on in the game. All this points to a player that is incredibly paranoid. His mindset feels like he instinctually gets paranoid and is critical of universal townreads. It then flows from there that he has strong townreads on people who doubt these universal townreads and challenge the status quo and legitimize his paranoia. Not having seen Ooba as scum, I don't know to what extent he can fake it, but the TD/Imperium townreads felt incredibly natural and I would expect town-Ooba to react pretty much EXACTLY the way he reacted.

4) RachMarie

- Rach's initial aggression against the hydras felt genuine. Also thought the paranoia of Bitmap in Post 547 felt town especially given her earlier stance that Bitmap is good as scum. Her asking whether people think it is multiball in Post 636 felt less likely to come from scum as is the callout to Mastin to vote her despite us and Imperium townreading her which almost felt like a dare. Her overall generally demeanor feels overwhelmingly town and she drives the game forward at several points probing into people's reasoning for their reads and shepherding the non-voters into consolidating a wagon to avoid a deadline lynch. I have no idea why it matters that she confused Mastin with Bitmap. It doesn't take away from my townread in the slightest.

5) Ankamius

- While I hate his entrance and lazy posts of nothing, the way he dropped the Nacho-tell in Post 480 after his initial scumread on Imperium felt incredibly understated and genuine and I loved the follow-up in Post 486. His list of reads in Post 847 feel pretty damn town and his reads on us, Imperium, Rach, and Mastin show a lot of scumhunting depth and I absolutely loved the effort he put into refining his reads in Post 1542 by ISOing his unsorted list and I think it way less likely for scum to be as pro-active since he wasn't under any pressure to do it at all.

6) Skybird

- Although I disliked Brantz's Post 153 as most of his reads are incredibly wishy-washy, I could chalk it down to it being early game and his "

My brain wants to scum read everyone who said they aren't going to read any of the discussion from the confirmation stage, but there are a lot of them so I don't think its actually a tell.

resonated as it matched my thoughts exactly. I can easily follow his thoughts on TiphaineDeath picking the most townread people in the room and scumreading them and his vote on Vezok in Post 500 makes sense given his previous stances. The rest of his posts up until his replace out felt like he was genuinely trying to keep up and follow leads and actually replacing out shows that it wasn't scum lurking it out. Skybird's entrance was tonally aggressive and felt town and the way she's looking at interactions between Metal Sonic, Beast, and TheAceOfSpades and her probing them further felt genuine. Overall, fairly certain this slot is town.

7) Bitmap

- His early townread on us was well thought out and I liked the explanations he gave in the neighborhood. I felt the softclaiming about being a possible vig in Post 812 was more likely to come from town than scum. And his choice of taking Metal Sonic out of the game made sense considering he had focused most of the day on trying to sort Metal. I'm ambivalent on whether it is optimal town strategy but it feels genuine enough. Ffery has a much stronger meta-informed townread here.

8) Vezokpiraka

- Not sure where the universal townreads on Vezok are coming from but I do have a moderately strong townread here primarily based on his tone in Post 472, Post 511, and Post 582 and the scumhunting off his wagon felt genuine, as well as his "

I've read the thread, I saw nothing worthwhile.

" While I disagree with his reasons for townreading Rach in Post 584, I feel that scum would be less likely to stretch for townreads on lynchbait and his conviction felt genuine, as well as his subsequent attempts to show Mastin that Rach is town. His case on Brantz in Post 584 was actually very well thought out. I didn't like that he was a bit too sure about Rach though and it felt like he would already townread her regardless of how she responded to him.

9) iHouse

- iHouse's ISO is a huge mess and in general I find it pretty hard to follow a logical train of thought but House's fluid, impressionable nature does make sense with my limited experience of his towngame. A few key towntells are his immediate vengeful claim in Post 124 as I can't see scum-him claiming a role that is optimal for town to lynch at some point. His indignance with TSO scumreading him and his Mastin push also feels natural despite it not being very accurate. His FT push in Post 1238 comes across as very, very town as well and it feels like he genuinely thought he caught scum.

10) TiphaineDeath

- While his early posts felt ridiculously fake and even his later posts feel somewhat over the top, the way he pursues scumreads with confidence that he's right feels town such as in Post 614. I also liked how he used the neighborhood to develop his reads further on us and Imperium. His initial push on my Ank read is something I can plausibly see coming from town. His overall ISO comes across as incredibly jumpy and all over the place which actually explains FT's case on him quite well. His flip-flop on us, Imperium, Ceph, and FT are all whimsical and his memory in general seems to be short term. For instance, calling Ceph town in Post 1421 to voting him in Post 1601, and abandoning his FT scumread for seemingly no reason. So, I disagree with FT on his Ace vote being scummy after he chained Mantis and AP together as it feels like impulsive jumping around.

11) Metal Sonic

- Both gambits (the clear on us as well as the guilty on Xombie) felt pro-active and there's been a lot of genuine scumhunting right out the gate. Metal Sonic's confidence in sorting players also felt far more aggressive than the latest scumgame I've played with him in. There were some logical gaps such as the quick Imperium townread after expressing paranoia but it doesn't feel fake. Not a huge fan of his scattershot voting on Vezok, TSO, and suspicion of Bitmap but the overall sorting and questioning is a far cry from his scumgame.

12) Xombie

- Looking back, Xombie's reaction to the daycop does feel genuine and I can reasonably see town feeling threatened by a guilty on them and staying on guard, and I doubt his theory that Imperium were helping MS comes from scum. While I initially disliked his entrance, I don't find it as scummy on a re-read and I like most of his later posts where he develops and refines his townreads such as in Post 869, Post 1093, and Post 1138.

13) Farside22

- Her early posts were pro-active and drove the game forward and her scumreads feel farily organic. Examples include the read on Xombie in Post 601, and the way she pushed TheAceOfSpades. I also liked her entrance into the game and I agreed with Ffery that she was picking up on Nacho's early trolling mood. As for AP's case, I can't see why not having townreads is scummy at all. Scum know who the universal townreads are, who they can't lynch, and who they would normally read as town and it is not hard to pretend to nail down some townreads so they whole line of reasoning feels like a stretch. I'm conflicted on Farside's paranoia of Imperium as it came right after Imperium accused us but I also thought the later wariness in post Post 1069 felt genuine. While I'm not a huge fan of her case on Ace in Post 1613, the way she's pushing it felt reasonably town. Overall, less sure than I should be based on the content but I decently strong townread.

14) Aeronaut

- Blonde's posting leaves a lot to be desired but didn't feel scum motivated overall. His "

Oh and if it becomes necessary, I can prove I'm town

in Post 766 is an assertion overwhelmingly more likely to come from town. His convoluted method for suspecting Mastin and soft claiming felt very genuine in light of this. Not a fan of Aeronaut's entrance and his insisting that Metal Sonic was lying scum which felt over-the-top but subsequent explanations feel like he actually believes it.

15) TheAceOfSpades

- While he has a low content ISO, I can follow his reads fairly well. I think the suspicion of AP for not wanting to get mislynched among other stuff makes sense from someone unfamiliar with his play. I understand all the rest of his townreads besides Vezok who he seems to have additional information on. Perhaps he and others have caught a crumb which makes them read Vezok as strongly town. I liked his response to TD in Post 1280. My only concern seems to be that he's a bit too enthusiastic about townreading players whose reads he agrees with and scumreading those he disagrees with. I'll have to check if this is a meta trend for him. But I overall felt that his posts were genuine and didn't feel manipulative or fake.

16) ZZZX

- While the vast majority of his posts are filler and promises to catch up, I don't think that's alignment indicative for him. I do think the tone of his wanting to get current felt genuine and carefree. The observations he made such as the one on Metal Sonic's gambit in Post 423 and the Ceph vs Solar is TvT in Post 1443 make more sense as town than scum. And while I think scum may call TvT, it would serve as an easy avenue to push rather than just dismissing it as TvT and moving on especially when ZZZX seems to be struggling to deliver content. His interaction with FT in post Post 1444 also felt similarly understated like he was actually trying to understand where FT was coming from.

17) PeregrineV

- PV's typically easy for me to get a townread on so I'm surprised I don't have as strong a townread as usual. A few posts that made me lean town are his probing Brantz to highlight the content in the first few pages in Post 828 as well as his train of thought on Vezok pushing for discussion in the neighborhood not being scummy starting around Post 829. His vote on Brantz does make sense based on his previous suspicion of Brantz but I hoped for more of a logical flow than isolated connections. I also haven't seen the level of in-depth scumhunting that would make me certain that he is town but I have a slight town read overall that I could easily be wrong on.

18) BeastCharizard

- Beast feels like he genuinely believes in his TSO townread. From experience, I find that people who are this sure are either town thinking they have found a killer tell or town who know that the target is town and I don't find it very likely Beast just decided to blatantly defend TSO (regardless of TSO's alignment) for no reason. I'm willing to wait but I'll eventually want an explanation for this read. While I wasn't a huge fan of his discrediting Metal Sonic in Post 916, his annoyance at iHouse for voting TSO rang genuine and the later vote on iHouse flows from there.

19) The Mask

- Not impressed with the abrasiveness and the generally volatile posting. I can't see where his FT scumread is coming from either. The way he was forming reads felt very mildly town like his calling House and TSO town in Post 1546 after they had an argument involving personal attacks. His reads on Post 843 don't feel like reads that scum would have and the sudden and drastic nature of his read change on AP, turning on us, and continuing to call FT scum for "prim and proper" posting all felt vaguely town but is super weak and probably one of my weakest townreads.

20) TSO

- My biggest concern with TSO is the almost complete lack of scumhunting in his ISO and his reaction to AP in Post 533 is scummy, hard to follow, and feels like buddying. There are a couple of posts in his later ISO that I liked though where he engaged Ffery about her FT read in Post 1528 and his explanation for voting Imperium to get himself into the game in Post 1524. His back-and-forth with iHouse is cringeworthy and I don't really understand his Ceph townread. Overall null.

SCUM (Strongest -> Weakest)

:

21)

Cephrir

- Easily my strongest scumread. I can sort of see why people are townreading him but because of the walls and analysis but nothing he has done this game is town-motivated and I'll outline my case on him in a separate post.

22)

Mastin2

- Mastin is one of the players I find incredibly hard to read due to the tendency of being manipulative as town. But I haven't found the town markers from Tales/Quickness/Serum and Steel here. His read on AP in Post 687 felt hesitant, weak, and ambiguous. The reads in Post 736 don't resonate as much as I've come to expect Mastin-reads to resonate. Mastin's Rach-read quite frankly sucks. Rach has been incredibly town and it feels more like she's setting up Rach to be lynched down the road when Rach's defended have been nightkilled. The AP townread in Post 1167 is weak as well and doesn't have the passion that town-Mastin tends to have when sorting AP. Saying the AceOfSpades wagon had a steady build feels like we're not reading the same game. TheAceOfSpades wagon was a series of votes with little explanation on an easy target and seems like a designated D1 mislynch. Mastin's overall choices of targets and how she went about developing them don't feel natural at all.

23)

AngryPidgeon

- Main issue is that his posts feel geared toward manipulation and the phrasing and direction of a lot of his sentences feel like he's either trying to gain allies among the town, or cause noise by arguing with people. Examples include the way he addressed Imperium in Post 391 and his encouragement of Xombie in Post 1033. AP's trajectory on Xombie also feels unnatural. Consider his early push in Post 295 when Xombie was receiving early pressure and confidence that Xombie is scum to encouraging Xombie and expressing concern about us in Post 1033 which feels like he is egging on the Solar/Xombie fight. His read on House is weak as well nitpicking on minor stuff like House grilling Ooba on his Rach-read and commenting on TD's inability to read him while missing the very, very town way in which House claimed his role. His read on Farside in Post 1037 partly for "filler comments" is super weak since Farside had provided an abundance of content despite a few filler posts and his other points on Farside are huge, huge stretches like where he insists that Farside having no townreads is scummy of her. The hydra-signing point is horrendous. Not to mention AP throws in his own filler posts at Imperium and bends over backwards to make it seem like he's on the same page. Hated the townread on TSO on Post 1053 for insulting Metal Sonic which feels like he's fanning the flames. The appeal to Mastin over not getting mislynched seems premature considering the suspicion of him wasn't strong at all although it could just be because it is me that's scumreading him. The scumreads on Metal Sonic and Farside is Post 1060 are lame as fuck. He's describing how MS-town should act and boxing him in to specific behaviors when there was nothing unnatural about MS assuming that TSO and Beast were Masons. His Farside read is based on null/playstyle tells and is manipulative as well considering he just sheeped Imperium's reasoning of "

Farside's taking shots from the sidelines.

" His AceOfSpades vote in Post 1083 is an opportunistic OMGUS. He also pre-emptively dismisses scumreads on Cephrir Post 1198 and Post 1437. The pushes on AceOfSpades and PV feel scum-motivated as AP knows Ace is probably an easy mislynch target and PV if not mislynched early will be a strong player late game. Overall, re-reading his ISO left me thinking he's likely scum although some of his interactions with me being vastly different from his previous scumgame makes me second guess this read a bit.

24) VysePresident

- A lot of his posts lack a real scumhunting drive to them. He starts off with asking us and Imperium to describe the others's play. I hate that he specifically mentions that he wants opinions on both heads. Considering how toxic the interactions between two of the heads were, after figuring out that Imperium were town, I am wary of this. If he read through our posts, it should be clear that we were townreading each other. There is also zero followup between Post 1087 and Post 1327 and he doesn't make anything out of his initial question beyond claiming that it is distancing which was also reasoning he sheeped off of iHouse's post.

Summary:

Town (S -> W): FourTrouble, Imperium, Ooba, Rach, Ankamius, Skybird, Bitmap, Vezokpiraka, iHouse, TiphaineDeath, Metal Sonic, Xombie, Farside<gap> Aeronaut, TheAceOfSpades, ZZZX, PeregrineV, Beastcharizard, TheMask, TSO
Scum (S -> W): Cephrir, Mastin2, AngryPidgeon, VysePresident

[Solar Wind]

Does whatever the fuck this is line up with those town games?

Tell me, cephrir my friend, in what sane universe are me and AOS both possibly scum?

^I don't even know what to call this

1579+1580=cephrir scum. He responds to my same post in two different, both derogatory ways. He planned and wanted to respond and make sure I got shut down and lumped in as scum with ace, he also forgot he had already done so, not town play. See, ace has been incredibly scummy, but he can't be scum as long is cephrir is unless we are in multiball, so cephrir is the lynch.

^Overstated certainty on a moonlogic case

My points are completely valid cephrir, so ima go with option two.

^Ignoring my rebuttal, not trying to push me in a remotely effective manner

It does, p much, though his interactions with players besides you feel a little more like his town game.

[Solar Wind]

My Ceph post is probably going to come later tonight. In the meantime, I'd like thoughts on the rest of my reads.

[Solar Wind]

Ceph, I kinda like the stuff you've said this morning, but I also kinda feel like you're echoing back what I'm saying/telegraphing to some extent, aside from the TD read, where you're taking my word for it that town-TD is no stranger to moon logic etc.. :/

[Solar Wind]

Ceph, I kinda like the stuff you've said this morning, but I also kinda feel like you're echoing back what I'm saying/telegraphing to some extent, aside from the TD read, where you're taking my word for it that town-TD is no stranger to moon logic etc.. :/

You're ffery. Your meta prowess rises above all other meta.

I don't believe you would make up meta even if you were scum, and I don't think you're scum. I'm fine with putting him on the back burner for a little while.

I've tried to do my own meta before. It's interesting, but I've yet to produce any results. The first time I tried it, I couldn't even see differences. The second was in AW, wherein I came out feeling like I had a handle on Lynx but then didn't feel sure matching the present game with either past game.

I am still planning on using some abilities on TD this cycle, though, and I think that will help me.

Oh bullshit re the bolded. And you're right, I don't make up meta, but I can be highly selective regarding what I share about someone's meta when I'm scum.

[Solar Wind]

Here are the reasons why Cephrir is scum and why we are lynching him today:

1. He eggs on the suspicion of Xombie in Post 1236 by encouraging my and FT's pushes there and way he questioned the Rach and Ooba townreads is geared toward instilling paranoia. He continues in Post 1265 by quoting a random Xombie post with "this post blows" when the post in question wasn't all that bad and actually explained Xombie's entrance into the game.

2. The agreement with FT in Post 1265 felt odd and as FT pointed out earlier, Ceph and FT had never been town together and the way he did it feels like trying to work himself into a townbloc because FT previously mentioned that he wanted Ceph to be town.

3. The mutual townreads from AP and Ceph based on Ceph commenting on the quality of AP's jokes in Post 1265 and AP calling him town are super weak and the complete lack of paranoia doesn't feel genuine at all. This continues in Post 1469 where he picks out perfectly null things from AP's posts and gives them unsubstantiated compliments ("This analysis is more than skin deep") and defending AP.

4. His scumread on Ankamius in Post 1265 where he rails on him for not reading the game saying "

If only some brave hero could sweep in and vote this!

" and later comment on FT's Ank vote saying "

My knight in shining armor has arrived!

" all in the same post feels like a massive setup meant to manipulate FT as opposed to a genuine read. His actual read is ridiculously weak: Ank is scum for saying he'll read stuff but not actually reading. Which I think is equally likely to come from lazy town and lazy scum.

5. Ceph's townread on FT is unnatural to the extent that he goes to great lengths to shout down attacks on FT. Criticizing TiphaineDeath in Post 1267 for "

buzzword scumhunting

" and defending FT doesn't match with Ceph claiming that he and FT see things so differently. If he did, he wouldn't have such a confidence in FT being town that he's willing to defend any and all attacks against FT. His push on Brantz in Post 1345 when Brantz pushed against FT follows a similar vein as does his "

[your questions aren't unconnected], he is throwing shit

" to FT about TD.

6. His comment on Ffery's townread of Rach in Post 1345 ("

You say this like you expect Rach to immediately back down and defer to you

") feels manipulative as hell as he's trying to psychologically goad Rach into disregarding Ffery's read and rebelling and does not at all match up with his evaluation of Ffery's abilties as having meta-prowess rising above all others. His "I

'm a person too. I have questions. You don't run FT

" in Post 1403 to my asking FT about Ceph is in a similar vein of mischaracterizing interactions to divide the town.

7. The TiphaineDeath push overall has a very manipulative edge to it i.e. he wants FT to join him in leading a TD push. Examples include the quote in Post 1345 where he quotes TD calling FT dumb, calls it belligerence, defends FT, and ends the post by voting TD.

8. Exaggerated reactions to PeregrineV in Post 1459 ("

Who are you? What are you doing here? Where am I?

") is gimmicky and comical and sets up to potentially mislynch him when Ceph knows that PV lurks out the early days as town.

9. The fatalism in Post 1719 feels premature as he hadn't made any effort yet to discuss my scumread on him with me nor had I actually posted a case yet which feels like he's manipulating how people perceive the incoming case. His complete lack of response or disagreement with my list of reads falls under a similar vein where he just discredits the entire wall as "words" even though it contains

absolutely nothing

about my read on him. Calling them "Serum and Steel flashbacks" makes no sense as I was scum there and he is all but certain I'm town here.

10. Post 1230 - His "this post is too sweet..." feels like blatant sucking up to Nacho. He has before as scum sucked up to players in this way: compare to this post. His Post 1787 falls along the same line and his "

You're ffery. Your meta prowess rises above all other meta

" just feels gross and doesn't at all match up with his past experience playing with Ffery. The "

Ffery is doing a pretty solid job of talking me down for now

" feels more like appealing to Ffery to continue reconsidering her initial scumread on him.

11. Ceph's interaction with me also feels like mega-buddying at first when I said I wanted him to be town (his Post 1230) but later on switches to discrediting my read after I've called him scum (giving AP a hug in Post 1469 after AP tells me to shut up about Tales).

Literally everything that Ceph has done this game has been trying to twist the gamestate in his favor, appealing to town players he thinks he can manipulate, and there is nothing about his reads that feel as though it genuinely came from town. I expect votes to follow or reasons why not.

VOTE: Cephrir

[Solar Wind]

Would you lynch this?:

Stop.

Stop trying to simultaneously play the victim and gloat about how you're going to get us lynched. That doesn't even make sense.

And most of all, just stop fucking talking to me.

Are you having reading comprehension issues, or are you just enjoying your ability to exude fake righteousness so much that you can't honor a simple request

I guess this is supposed to help contribute to your future fake breakdown or something

I'm pretty much permanently done with anyone who falls for your shit tomorrow

Oh, yeah, let's pretend like there is any chance we're not getting lynched, that sounds like great fun

It makes plenty of fucking sense, we have zero influence.

Or keep talking if you want but I promise you I can and will get more unpleasant than I already have

[Solar Wind]

For reference, the sympathy stuff he pulls shouldn't be a reason for a townread. People who haven't played with scum-Ceph tend to find these things town or go the "would scum actually do this?" route but that's not barely helpful.

[Solar Wind]

In other news, I want to do a massive re-evaluation of Imperium to solidify my read there.

[Solar Wind]

@ Farside, my case on Cephrir actually has nothing to do with me and Ceph's previous argument. I think that's alignment-null for him actually.

This is a much better lynch than the Ace Of Spades push and you're going to have to give me a lot more than your current case if you want me to vote Ace over Ceph.

[Solar Wind]

I'm still weary of cephrir but I liked his response to the case. Way lot less manipulative than I associate with scum!cephrir. Talked to nacho for a bit about cephrir, and while he's admitted he's not great at readin cephrir (we both have a tendency to town-read him/be manipulated by him) and he's not interested in lynching cephrir today.

I disagree. His response actually spent quite a bit of time discrediting than addressing suspicion normally and his response

was

manipulative.

[Solar Wind]

Why did you not initially post your concerns and said that I would?

[Solar Wind]

I'm going to

UNVOTE:

for a bit as Ffery thought that his soft-claim could be indicative of town. I noticed it as well when he was responding although not wholly convinced that it is definitely coming from town. Would still like people to explain their townreads on Cephrir beyond a surface level.

Also have a feeling that since it is role madness, scum would almost certainly be fake-claiming some role as opposed to VT. As town, it is fairly meaningless. We all have roles.

[Solar Wind]

A potential mea culpa.

This refers to what, exactly?

[Solar Wind]

Here are the post I have in regards to why ace is scum.
started here
what I noted about his play
issues summorized

I agree with your description of Ace's play but it feels more like you describing sub-optimal town play than scum play.

How is that town play at all? I see more often scum skating by then town.

I'll address this one by one.

1. AceOfSpades using neighborhoods in the plural is not a scumslip because you'd have to think he was mistaking his scum PT for a neighborhood and think that he is in two neighborhoods. But if he does believe that he received links to two neighborhood, he wouldn't even know he was scum. Overall, that train of thought doesn't make sense as a scumslip. I agree with you that his response seemed awkward because he seems to be referring to neighborhoods across games whereas his original post seemed to refer to this game alone and I would like him to explain that clearly.

2. He never said what he doesn't like about AP but that's more a playstyle thing than alignment-indicative. I normally provide abundant reasoning as scum because I do so as town. I've never seen someone who provides reasoning for their reads as town and doesn't do it as scum. It would be suicide.

3. The 3 post thing is meh. Could be snippy town or snippy scum.

4. I don't think his AP hop is opportunistic considering AP wasn't under popular suspicion at that time with only me pushing him. If anything AP voting Ace in omgus feels more opportunistic.

5. His reasons for AP-scum is pretty weak actually as not liking the push on you isn't a basis for a scumread. But he also pointed out Post 1058 which I completely agree feels scummy.

Overall, I have him as town but not my strongest townread and want him to get engaged but I don't like how easily the wagon on him sprung up and how he seems to be a default lynch today. If I had to compromise on a "default" lynch on an inactive, I'd do VysePresident over Ace anyday. But I also have decent scumreads on Ceph/Mastin/AP who are my preferred lynches.

[Solar Wind]

A potential mea culpa.

This refers to what, exactly?

If I wanted to explain it, I would have.

I don't know if you are trying to pick a fight again for the heck of it but please don't.

[Solar Wind]

I'm still weary of cephrir but I liked his response to the case. Way lot less manipulative than I associate with scum!cephrir. Talked to nacho for a bit about cephrir, and while he's admitted he's not great at readin cephrir (we both have a tendency to town-read him/be manipulated by him) and he's not interested in lynching cephrir today.

I disagree. His response actually spent quite a bit of time discrediting than addressing suspicion normally and his response

was

manipulative.

He responded to your case on him. He discredited you a bit in pieces along the way, but not in a way that was out of the range of "cephrir-town addressing a push from someone he thinks is town" on him.

It was manipulative if he was scum. It wasn't out of range for town behaviors.

First off, he didn't discredit in NY169 or Serum and Steel. If you compare his response in Serum and Steel, it was pretty much to-the-point with no discrediting elements. There is an INSANELY sharp contrast to this post. I'll quote it here:

Spoiler: Town Ceph's response to suspicion

Well, this is annoying. I thought we were done focusing on me for a while.

I'm massively shocked and surprised that Cephrir hasn't already been lynched. He's playing exactly how he would play as scum. He's staying on top of the game, asking questions, "scumhunting," and putting on a show of being an upstanding townie. His play has several similarities to Tales of You where he was scum and is incredibly different from NY169 where he was town. Cephrir prefers playing scum to town and loves the aspect of manipulating people whereas when he is town, he struggles to keep himself motivated.

Usually, but not always. It amuses me that at least thus far, your case amounts to "Chandra is scum because she doesn't look like scum". It just so happens that I'm capable of getting into a good groove as town; it simply doesn't always happen. I was determined not to make a reference to the different account again, but I have to note that trying to maintain a slightly different persona actually is really helping me maintain my interest in this game. It gives me something to do and actually, on some level, I enjoy it for some of the same reasons I enjoy being scum.

To give an idea of the type of manipulation Cephrir is good at, it basically involves making arguments that will resonate with the most influential players in a game. In this game it is clearly xMuffiman, Trustworthy, and to some extent Pixel assuming none of them are scum with him. Now look at the way Cephrir postures around the various arguments early on in the game.

I won't argue with the basic premise here, but you know what kind of argument resonates with influential players? A good argument. Though you'll definitely see me deviating into bad arguments as scum (Xenosaga, Day 2, I knew the case on Kagami was pretty bad and helped push it through anyway).

Notice how Cephrir takes on the argument between Titus and Tammy in Post 98 by interjecting himself saying "that didn't happen" when Titus accused Tammy of rolefishing in Post 95. But if you actually look at Tammy's Post 91, she does suggest the possibility of having those who have the synth claim so we could analyze that information and Titus can be forgiven for considering it a rolefish. However, Cephrir interjects himself in there before Tammy can respond to quickly defend against the accusation which also subtly makes Titus look bad even though her concerns were reasonable.

This isn't actually an example of the point you were just making, but it doesn't count as a rolefish anyway when she was hating on her own idea.

Cephrir as scum is also fantastic at doing what the people expect of him. For instance, everyone knows zMuffin is a good scum player and inspires paranoia so the moment Ffery townreads him, he jumps in pointing out that this was "muffin we are talking about" in Post 106. This is probably not conclusive because I do think Ffery's townread was a bit hasty but this is one of the patterns I see from Cephrir about doing what is expected of him which fits with his scumplay.

If you wanted to argue this as not being a reason for townreading me, I'd be on board with this. What behavior, though, by this logic, could I possibly elicit in order to get a townread form you, other than sitting around being a completely useless townie like I sometimes do? And what's to stop me from trying to imitate /that/?

Cephrir's Post 132 feels off. He questions Antihero on his Pixel vote at a time when Antihero had telegraphed his vote quite clearly and it seems more like a move to buddy Pixel as well as instigate conflict. Post 154 is pretty damn useless as far as scumhunting goes but could possibly work as a manipulation device. His posts to Trustworthy amount to "<3" and "aww man", his posts are SKOT are more pushing, (I feel like Cephrir is picking up on an easy target), and his posts to Antihero are more defense of Pixel.

I don't even remember these posts especially and I'm not about to go back and look at them, but congratulations, you've done it, you've actually managed to attribute more intricate planning to me than I actually have even when I *am* scum! Not sure why it's so outlandish that I might have actually had a scumread on SKOT, different players are different and don't have to agree. You'll notice if you go further though that I've backed off and now consider him only a mild scumread.

It is really obvious Cephrir is scum here

Not only is this not true, it's also literally never been true.

I think you're wrong F16 and you give far too much credit to ceph about him abilities.

And I think you just can't let me have even one thing without belittling my accomplishments~

Can you explain your read there in more depth?

[Solar Wind]

She didn't want to talk more about it because it's role-related.

That's fine then. I left you a bunch of questions in the neighborhood. Also, would like an explanation for your town-read on Ceph and this is one of those time you really, really have to make it good.

[Solar Wind]

I don't really enjoy defending Ceph before he defends himself. I'm also not ready to give a full response on Cephrir considering the whole still phone posting thing.

And now that he has responded? And sure, I'll wait till you get ahold of a computer but I'd love to hear actual reasons for town-Ceph based on the entirety of your experience with him as scum.

[Solar Wind]

ffery here.

I'm kinda at a loss. I'm not scumreading Ceph nearly to the extent that f-16 is, and I am seeing a lot of stuff that I feel could come from Ceph as either alignment, and the overall sense I get from his reaction to our push is a slight town sense. I don't how to weigh up my low-confidence read against f-16's high confidence read.

However, I feel like the TAOS lynch if it goes through will be a mislynch, but this isn't a townread for the ages.

I'd still like to look elsewhere.

[Solar Wind]

F-16 here.

I actually would like thoughts on VysePresident as well. He's probably the only "lurker" that I have serious concerns about and has been escaping scrutiny while other lurkers who I thought were more town have come under pressure.

[Solar Wind]

Sorry but I'm just not seeing Ace as scum and this is something Ffery and I agree on. We're not voting Ace. I'd love for people who have such a problem seeing Ceph as scum suggest alternatives. Mastin is a great choice as is AP and Vyse.

[Solar Wind]

@ Tammy,

I was thinking about the last few pages and I'm still not following your thought process here:

1) You claim that Ceph was your strongest scumread and then say that I would explain why better than you could citing the fact that you were busy.

2) After I posted and Ceph responded, he now assuaged your concerns enough that you don't want to lynch him anymore based on him being discrediting but within the range of town-Ceph? So, basically you are saying his response was null but he changed your mind anyways. How would your strongest scumread posting a null response change your mind so drastically?

3) You say you are still wary of Ceph but not interested in lynching him, why? Do you have stronger scumreads that you prefer to lynch then? As far as I can tell, you don't have any other strong reads and we have to lynch someone so why are you against lynching a player that you are wary of?

4) You never actually addressed my point that he was different from Serum and Steel where his response did not feel like discrediting at all. And I don't buy that playing under an outed alt affects whether you discredit players.

5) Who would you lynch if not Ceph, and why that player over Ceph?

@ Nacho,

1) I really, really want that Ceph townread explained like right now. You haven't given jack as to why you are reading Ceph as town. You just are. I don't want a refutation of my case. I want an explanation "

why Nacho has a townread on Ceph.

"

2) I'm also concerned that you have all of Mastin/AP/Ceph as either town or unwilling to lynch. You have no suspects at all and you are being obstructionist with regard to my pushes which fits with your scumgame and doesn't at all make sense with your towngame. It feels like you are giving me resistance so I don't have the time to re-evaluate.

[Solar Wind]

I don't want to get into a back and forth wall war with a scumread but I'll address a few key points from Ceph's response in Post 1811:

5. The "

Did you even talk to Ffery about this

comment implies that Ffery is better at reading him than I am which again feels like appealing to Ffery second guessing her read. Obviously we talk about reads. We're a hydra. We don't run specific points by each other. He is presenting Ffery up as an authority in reading him so he can leverage her uncertainty. Also doesn't match up with Mafia On the Air where he suggested that I be nightkilled immediately as well as Tales where I spent the better part of late-game trying to get scum-Ceph lynched.

6. My argument here was that the comment about Rach/Ffery was meant to inspire long-term paranoia and break up the townbloc. Ceph townreading Rach has nothing to do with that. It tries to present someone unfavorably to cause rifts among the town. Same with me/FT.

9. The Serum and Steel flashback doesn't make sense as I was townreading him later on in the game. I was also much less sure than I claimed to be.

There's other little stuff littered around like complaining about the language of the post and saying that I'm making broad, generalizations without evidence when I supplied a wall full of them.

[Solar Wind]

Not answering. Sorry. I think I've been very clear in my posts.

If Nacho wants to put up with this he can, I'm not.

If I thought you were clear, I wouldn't have asked.

[Solar Wind]

Ooba, you are voting my strongest townread in the game: one who I'll never consider lynching. Me and FT played together offsite for years and know each other probably better than we know anyone on mafiascum. Where we played, deadline was around 48-72 hours. When playing with normal two-week deadlines on mafiascum, people who haven't played here a lot get impatient and burned out. FT flaked from the last two games we hydra'd together. I'm unsurprised that he disappeared as the game dragged on and on for three weeks now. It fits with his play and isn't scummy for him.

[Solar Wind]

I realize that might sound snippy, but both Nacho and I have had stuff going on this week and we've been very clear about that. We've been very clear that we've not read this game in its entirety yet, and nacho might never do that. I might who knows.

I said exactly why I didn't want to lynch Cephrir.

Nacho never claimed this super town read you seem to be seeing in him. He doesn't seem him as super scum and he's not interested in lynching him today.

Telling you why he doesn't agree with your case

is not being obstructionist

and demanding stuff from us is not going to get you what you want. I will not be hounded to do your bidding. If you want to work with us, work with us, demanding us to be whatever impression you think we're supposed to be will get you nowhere with this head.

I don't know who I want to lynch right now. Probably vise. We're voting Mastin so I don't get your point. I don't get how you don't understand Nacho's point of view

when you hydra with nacho

and have played with him plenty regardless, so his position should not come as a shock to you.

If you feel like you need to go through the pointless exercise of doing a mass re-evaluation, fine. But don't expect me to be pleasant in return when I feel like I'm being hounded and being made demands on.

Asking you to explain your reads is not making demands on you. Considering you went on your own paranoid spiral in the neighborhood the night before last (to which I didn't give snippy responses), I don't see why it is such a problem that I need to firm up my reads.

So, you will only lynch Ceph if you see him as "super-scum?" But that standard doesn't apply to everyone else? And considering both of you have been manipulated by Ceph before and I haven't been, I'm unsure why you aren't working with me or taking my read into account.

You actually weren't clear on why you didn't want to lynch Ceph. If I thought you were, I would not be spending time asking you and trying to figure it out.

(I won't comment on what I said to Nacho as I'd prefer to interact with him directly on it. I much prefer you actually answer the questions that I asked you.)

[Solar Wind]

My concerns about Imperium went away based on that response so w/e.

I'd vote AP if I weren't hydra'ing but I'll discuss this read with Ffery more in-depth.

[Solar Wind]

Tammy, don't worry about it. I really wasn't being demeaning by saying "obstructionist" and I wasn't referring to both of you either. I was specifically pointing it to Nacho. Nacho's scumgame

is

obstructionist and he has given me that advice before and it is something I've learned to incorporate in my own game as well and it is a scum-strategy that we've talked about together. I wasn't trying to be insulting to you. Hopefully, Nacho already explained that.

I asked you about the read because I legitimately couldn't follow it and still can't (because his response was different from Serum and Steel and I'm not seeing what you are seeing. Also couldn't follow why you have a higher bar for Ceph than others) and for whatever reason, I was weirded out by your stance change. I'm sorry if it came off as demanding. It is largely irrelevant atm as I'm not particularly concerned about your alignment now.

[Solar Wind]

Sorry but I'm just not seeing Ace as scum and this is something Ffery and I agree on. We're not voting Ace. I'd love for people who have such a problem seeing Ceph as scum suggest alternatives. Mastin is a great choice as is AP and Vyse.

mastin is not a D1 lynch without an explicit scumclaim.

Why?

The last (and only) time I personally helped get mastin lynched on day 1, he was the godfather and I was the cop. He'd have been cop-cleared on day 2 if we'd both survived that long.

[Solar Wind]

Sorry but I'm just not seeing Ace as scum and this is something Ffery and I agree on. We're not voting Ace. I'd love for people who have such a problem seeing Ceph as scum suggest alternatives. Mastin is a great choice as is AP and Vyse.

mastin is not a D1 lynch without an explicit scumclaim.

Why?

The last (and only) time I personally helped get mastin lynched on day 1, he was the godfather and I was the cop. He'd have been cop-cleared on day 2 if we'd both survived that long.

Are we playing that game?

No?

Alrighty then.

We're playing a game with a Mastin who concerns me almost that much, though.

I can see you feel a lot of conviction about this. The conviction doesn't translate to me, based on what I can see in the game thread.

[Solar Wind]

I'm good with Mastin or Vyse lynches. Preferably Mastin. Going to discuss with Ffery to see where she wants our vote.

[Solar Wind]

@ Nacho, can you explain why you said that Mastin and AP aren't scum together? If not here, then in the neighborhood.

[Solar Wind]

But instead it comes out as massive pre-planned agendas. You knew you would eventually town read him and every post you make screams with that knowledge.

This is actually what said in the neighborhood ages ago which Imperium was privy to. I pointed out that she didn't like started out scumreading AP and then came around to seeing AP as town and that it felt fabricated, like she thinks that's what she's supposed to do or that's what she feels is natural.

I also mentioned that I'm not seeing the revelations that Mastin is so I'm not sure where Mastin is getting that from and also that it wouldn't have worried me if Mastin townread AP from the start as opposed to scumread, then segue into a townread.

While my concerns about Imperium are largely miniscule at this point, I want to put this out there that Nacho's reasoning is a rephrase of something I've specifically told him in the neighborhood.

[Solar Wind]

EBWOP

But instead it comes out as massive pre-planned agendas. You knew you would eventually town read him and every post you make screams with that knowledge.

This is actually what I said in the neighborhood ages ago which Imperium was privy to. I pointed out that I didn't like that Mastin started out scumreading AP and then came around to seeing AP as town and that it felt fabricated, like Mastin thinks that's what she's supposed to do.

I also mentioned that I'm not seeing the revelations that Mastin is so I'm not sure where Mastin is getting that from and also that it wouldn't have worried me if Mastin townread AP from the start as opposed to scumread, then segue into a townread.

While my concerns about Imperium are largely miniscule at this point, I want to put this out there that Nacho's reasoning is a rephrase of something I've specifically told him in the neighborhood.

[Solar Wind]

In other words, AP could be town with a scuMastin. Or could be in a different scumteam if multiball. Or just plain scum with Mastin. Not hugely concerned which it is as me and Nacho are both agreed Mastin should probably be lynched.

[Solar Wind]

@ FT, are you arguing that TD and Ceph are partnered together?

[Solar Wind]

I'm not lynching ceph day 1 when we have like 4 heavy lurkers.

Fuck your egos and lynch scum not inflate your self worth.

Since when did lynching lurkers equal lynching scum?

[Solar Wind]

@ Farside, can you elaborate on your Rach suspicion? You say that she is scum partly for pushing Ace on the neighborhoods plural post that Ace made. But you had pushed him on the same grounds so why does it make Rach scum?

[Solar Wind]

Could you explain WHY you think I am scum?

Nope, not really. It's a vanity read. I have it, but I'm not going to push it. Wouldn't call it just gut, but since I can't point to anything tangible, gut's the only word I have.

What do you think of the wagon on Ace?

Looks towndriven for the most part and I've thought Ace looks mildly (albeit not severely) scummy.

What other scum reads do you have at this point?

Well, you. And Aeronaught/Blonde. That's about all off the top of my head.

What is your logical analysis of the froo froos?

My analysis of the what what?

I'm thinking pretty hard about the conversation that Penguin and I had regarding your reads when town vs your reads when scum right now.

[Solar Wind]

I would love love love to have been a fly on the wall in this conversation.

You can be.

It starts here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5862832

[Solar Wind]

I'm not lynching ceph day 1 when we have like 4 heavy lurkers.

Fuck your egos and lynch scum not inflate your self worth.

I agree with not lynching cephrir.

I'm not lynching ceph day 1 when we have like 4 heavy lurkers.

Fuck your egos and lynch scum not inflate your self worth.

Since when did lynching lurkers equal lynching scum?

I won't help lynch a town read based on reasons I disagree with.
Still waiting for why rach is a town read.
Her case is not the same as mine at all.

I'm not clear as to how her case was different. Can you lay it out for me?

I've given my reasons for townreading Rach in my list of reads:

4) RachMarie

- Rach's initial aggression against the hydras felt genuine. Also thought the paranoia of Bitmap in Post 547 felt town especially given her earlier stance that Bitmap is good as scum. Her asking whether people think it is multiball in Post 636 felt less likely to come from scum as is the callout to Mastin to vote her despite us and Imperium townreading her which almost felt like a dare. Her overall generally demeanor feels overwhelmingly town and she drives the game forward at several points probing into people's reasoning for their reads and shepherding the non-voters into consolidating a wagon to avoid a deadline lynch. I have no idea why it matters that she confused Mastin with Bitmap. It doesn't take away from my townread in the slightest.

Can you explain your reasons for townreading Cephrir?

[Solar Wind]

@ FT, I think I can follow where you are coming from with the Mafia On The Air reference. There were a couple of things that made me second guess the read mostly based on how he soft-claimed although it is not enough to never lynch him. Ceph is also widely townread. Assuming Ceph doesn't get lynched, who are your other choices? Right now, I have Mastin/AP/VysePresident in my scumlist. Similar issues with Mastin as Ceph and I'm second guessing my AP read. Vyse is probably the one I'd be comfortable with.

As for TiphaineDeath, his vote on us sucks especially after I described him as impulsive but Ffery's reading him strongly as town and Ihave a weak-ish townread there so I doubt we'd be voting him today.

I also have mild concerns about Farside and Skybird but they are fleeting and I could be easily wrong.

[Solar Wind]

I'll wait but I'm not optimistic and I strongly prefer we lynch Vyse over Ace. Heading off to class now.

[Solar Wind]

I have played with town-Ceph twice and scum-Ceph twice. Also, please explain your townread on Ceph. (This is F-16 btw).

[Solar Wind]

Far, please look at my case on Ceph. Look at the stuff F-16 cited from other games showing what he's capable of faking as scum. How is this not convincing you that he's scum here?

I'll read it but don't expect anything till Thursday.
I'm going to be busy most of tomorrow.

Frankly I have no issue with paranoia but has either you or solar looked at ciphrir's town games to see if there is a difference? Or is everything based on how cephrir can be as scum?

The reason for my scumread on Ceph isn't "paranoia" and never has been. I quoted the posts from Ceph's scum to House because House's read was rudimentary. He townread Ceph because Ceph ATE'd. I showed that it shouldn't be a towntell but rather null.

Neither me nor FT have been making Ceph-cases with paranoia in mind or for the reasons you think that we are.

[Solar Wind]

@ FT, did you observe Ceph's crumbs so far? (Don't out it if you have). I have a decent idea what it is. I feel like his role is the kind of role we used to play with on DDO a while ago but soon stopped using it lately as it was redundant with a more straightforward role especially with the way Ceph is using it. I will say that the role is fairly uncommon on mafiascum. Let me know how that affects your read on him.

[Solar Wind]

I have played with town-Ceph twice and scum-Ceph twice. Also, please explain your townread on Ceph. (This is F-16 btw).

And I have played with him more times than I can remember, starting in March 2013. He's a great example of evolving meta, especially his town game, IMO.

That said, my certainty that he's scum in this game was never close to 100%, and it's faded considerably. F-16's certainty has faded too.

[Solar Wind]

I'm just going to say before I head to bed.
No one ever agrees why I town read people. I have a feeling anything I say about cephrir will be put under the category of he could do that as scum counter point.
To save myself that agrevation and time and engergy. I'm simply going to say my cephrir town read is gut based.

I'll expand on why the case on cephrir reads more under meta and expectations as I've read it, tomorrow.

I'd like to see it in your own words so I can solidify my read on you. If you convince me he's town, it's a bonus. But I doubt you would do it by refuting my case.

The reason for that is that while my case is based on objective facts, the interpretations and conclusions I drew from them are abstract and meta-informed (and not just any meta but specific past strategies in specific games).

The only correct response to a case like mine is to go through point by point and argue that each one isn't alignment indicative. This is what Ceph did. But I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't think it was alignment-indicative. Ceph's response was moderately useful to me because there were things beyond the responses like tone, and whether he was being manipulative/discrediting or sincere that I was looking for.

You (or Nacho or anyone else) going through it and telling me that "Point X isn't alignment indicative" won't help in the slightest and won't convince me that Ceph is town beyond thinking that you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. It is also remarkably easy to refute arguments in mafia and rarely alignment indicative.

If you want to convince me Ceph is town, give me new and interesting perspectives that I hadn't considered before. That's why I asked Nacho not to bother refuting the case and provide his own reasons and I'm asking the same from you. You think I'm town (apparently) and you think Ceph is town. Show me why.

[Solar Wind]

Here's why AceOfSpades is a bad lynch:

First off, consider the reasons behind pushing him. Farside and Rach have accused him of scumslipping by using neighborhoods in the plural. I pointed out why it is meaningless and Farside conceded the point. He's being accused for not having reasons for his reads. This is entirely non-alignment indicative. Vezok says he's scum caving under pressure. Actually his activity has been much the same throughout the game and I don't see him flailing, caving, or giving up. Nothing about his play changed with the wagon on him.

Second, consider the rise of the wagon. Mastin calls it "towndriven" and likes the buildup of it. While it may be towndriven, it still feels like a wagon on town. The buildup was fast with lots of naked votes and no convincing reason why he's scum. His actual posts and reads felt quite town. The dynamics of his wagon are bad. He accused AP. AP omgus'd him. Farside pushed the "neighborhoods" plural point. And the wagon developed. Vezok pushes the lynch arguing that people against the wagon are fueled by their own ego which is meaningless nonsense considering extensive evidence has been provided by me and others to push counterwagons while Vezok provided zero reasoning or evidence.

Third consider VysePresident who has been similarly inactive and prod-dodging but has yet to face much scrutiny. Not to mention his actual posts were pretty scummy as well. He sheeps House saying that me and Imperium were distancing. Asks us for reads on each other when it is abundantly obvious just by reading our posts and prod-dodges forever and ever. And he has been posting all over the site for days and days. Seriously, look at his online activity.

We have till Friday evening. Let's do this.

VOTE: VysePresident

[Solar Wind]

I'll do my best solar but I'll place money now you'll agrue against my town points.
Won't happen till tomorrow.
I was hoping to get to it this morning but I was running late.

That's fine. I won't push Ceph but I also think Ace is town. You were convinced a while ago. Let's compromise on VP.

[Solar Wind]

@Solar Win - Oh for pity's sake, that was me saying I hoped the argument wasn't sincere. I didn't have enough of a clue to have an actual opinion.

That's fine. I look forward to seeing your notes.

[Solar Wind]

After reading the posts from yesterday, I don't want to lynch either Cephrir or Mastin2 today. I want to add TSO and AP to my town list. These are both gut feelings after reading their ISO's.

VOTE: Beast

I would love to see explanations for all four these reads. AP/Mastin/Ceph are all in my scumpile and TSO is probably the weakest of my townreads. How did you come to this conclusion?

Also, vig should shoot from among AP/Mastin/Ceph.

[Solar Wind]

Are they

handwritten

notes?

heh.

I feel so honored to have been peripherally involved in the generation of this meme.

[Solar Wind]

It's a meme? I thought it originated with Titus writing handwritten notes in ASOIAF.

[Solar Wind]

oriole did it first in Death's Diner, and was correctly considered insanely town for it. I thought Titus did it in ASOIAF to see if she could get some sweet towncred too. But the way she went about it was nothing like oriole.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5182585

One of those handwritten reads was of my slot.

[Solar Wind]

Okay. I'll reread Ace closely and read through a couple of his other games to see if this is normal for him. In your opinion, if Ace is scum, who are his partners? Also, what are your other reads?

[Solar Wind]

I thought he'd have posted them as well but I'm just hoping the replacement is someone that's easy to read.

Mastin, what is it about the Ace wagon that you like?

[Solar Wind]

@ Farside, do you think Rach is partnered with Ace? Because the way she went after him, it doesn't feel that way. One of the reasons I dislike the Ace wagon is the lack of resistance (except from me obviously) and how easily it seems to go through. I'm interested in who you think his partners are and why they are letting it go through and offering minimal resistance or whether they are bussing.

[Solar Wind]

Well, I suppose that's a Mastin answer.

[Solar Wind]

Unable to post the promised read list. Sorry

So when are you going to do this?

[Solar Wind]

14) Aeronaut

- Blonde's posting leaves a lot to be desired but didn't feel scum motivated overall. His "

Oh and if it becomes necessary, I can prove I'm town

in Post 766 is an assertion overwhelmingly more likely to come from town. His convoluted method for suspecting Mastin and soft claiming felt very genuine in light of this. Not a fan of Aeronaut's entrance and his insisting that Metal Sonic was lying scum which felt over-the-top but subsequent explanations feel like he actually believes it.

While I agree with your assessment of the softclaim, I didn't like this in that post:

I assume that he voted for me because I haven't been involved with the discussion and he probably wanted to put pressure on me. So, if he really thought that I was top of his list at that point (Because he'd vote for the top of his list) then I'd say his voting in the game is more suspicious than mine.

In addition to a bit of cognitive disconnect between the two sentences ("I assume...So if he really thought the opposite of that") it also features a classic, "look at this guy, he's scummier than me." But the persecuted-PR vibe in the rest of the post is pretty decent.

Her changing her vote when asked to (768) read weirdly to me at first and still does... the fact she voted Solar Wind makes me think the post should have a joking air but it doesn't have that.

781 also makes me scratch my head a bit. I don't generally expect newbies to not divulge all their thoughts in thread. I would be interested in learning whether she discussed what she was supposedly doing here in her neighborhood. 783 feels a bit like a backtrack.

Funny how I cam in thinking it was odd how little you acknowledged Aero here but actually he is the less important player in this slot. Aero has just got FT stuck in his craw for some reason and it's strange to me that someone who's been semi-active since 2013 has apparently never seen a gambit before. But there's no scum motivation there except trying to have an easy scum read and, as they say...elsewhere, "dumbtell" (which I don't believe is a real thing)... so I guess I should take that at face value.

I'm a bit bothered by Aeronaut's uselessness because he wasn't useless in whatever NY game I played with him before he replaced out. On the other hand, ~reasons~.

Basically this is only not a scumread for me because of the tail end of 766.

ffery here, so the perspective is a little different from what you're responding to. If I were reading Aeronaut qua Aeronaut I'd be more concerned about his play because he seemed perfectly happy to base his decision on where to vote on a fraction of the available data, and because he seemed excessively abrasive right off the bat. But, I picked up pretty serious townvibes from his predecessor. This read could change with more data.

[Solar Wind]

Hi Antihero.

Welcome to the hell hole.

[Solar Wind]

iso beast and house and you too can know as much as I know.

Or start reading here: 1667

There are bits and bobs before that post that might be of interest, too.

[Solar Wind]

Hi Antihero. Have you been following this game?

[Solar Wind]

19) The Mask - Not impressed with the abrasiveness and the generally volatile posting. I can't see where his FT scumread is coming from either. The way he was forming reads felt very mildly town like his calling House and TSO town in Post 1546 after they had an argument involving personal attacks. His reads on Post 843 don't feel like reads that scum would have and the sudden and drastic nature of his read change on AP, turning on us, and continuing to call FT scum for "prim and proper" posting all felt vaguely town but is super weak and probably one of my weakest townreads.

Yeah, the abrasiveness is excessive. I usually townread that but it's way over the top. Honestly I'm not gonna make a big post about this, I'm just gonna say I don't find any of the things you pointed out to be town. I would lynch this.

It's either a post restriction or he's faking it.

For me, the townread went from extremely weak to pretty strong based on the way he soft-counterclaimed beast, and then showed a stop-and-think about whether both roles could be town.

[Solar Wind]

Vote: AceofSpades

I dont usually vote for people i cant read/find null but it seems that with the addition of the deadline and being the most unreadable so far for me I have to do that and try to fully give this game my all in a full night read since this game is going in an insane speed for me. :<

oh and also if you want to lynch lurker scum d1 because you're too afraid to lynch mastin scum, you can also just lynch this
which is also obviously scum

No.

ZX is, 100%, town, and ANYONE claiming investigative/killing actions on ZX will as far as I'm concerned be scumclaiming. You'd be less scumclaiming by targeting me, and even that I consider a Very Bad Idea at

best

. (Well, aside from maybe one or two roles.)

I'm going to say this to all the people putting most of their play in the neighborhood.

If you're town you need to take some stances here, where everyone can see it.

Mastin or anybody else vouching for someone with as lackluster an iso as ZXXX gets absolutely nowhere with me.

[Solar Wind]

hi just a friendly reminder that mastin's still scum!

What do you think of Mastin's role claim?

[Solar Wind]

Vote: rach

Vyse is the only one I'd compermise on come deadline or Pere.

farside you're breaking my heart in two

Are you concerned about Farside's alignment or just think she's voting town?

[Solar Wind]

Basically, my stance is that if someone is posting extensive content in the 'hood, they're scum.
Put it in public.

There's virtually nothing that you should hide. Paranoia's one of those things, sometimes. Reactions you're hoping to get can be another. But for the most part, any player who is posting rather extensively in their 'hood content that can/should be in thread?
Yeah, every reason to be suspicious of that.

But ZX, like me, doesn't do that. He's town.

Now, if someone in a 'hood wants to share a player that's posting content in-hood but not thread, feel free to! I'd listen

intently

.

I don't understand why his lack of posting in the neighborhood is reason for a townread. His lack of posting is reason for a nullread.

[Solar Wind]

my fact isn't scum either.

fact of the day:
mastin and zzzzzx are scum.
why aren't there more votes on either of these people?

Why aren't you answering my questions?

I'm reading Mastin as scum. I'm not the best at it but I find Mastin more scummy than the games where I've incorrectly read Mastin as scum (Tales, Quickness) because Mastin-reads don't resonate with me as much + reaction to Ace wagon.

If Ffery agrees with me, we'll vote there.

ZZZX probably isn't scum though.

[Solar Wind]

Also, btw Ceph, don't think I'm ignoring your comments on my reads. I just have limited time right now and want to make the most of Nacho being here and also deadline is approaching. But I have read your comments and it's given me food for thought and I'll respond when I can. (I don't think you said anything about my ZZZX-townread though). I'll admit it is a weak one.

What do you think of Farside's town-case on you? Do you believe it is accurate?

[Solar Wind]

i will give you none of those as punishment for subjecting me to your banter w/ f16, tammy

Anti, why no response to my question?

[Solar Wind]

I nearly giggled out loud at work at the pumbaaface

pedit @ f-16: no that's fine, I didn't think you were ignoring them.

I had ZZZX off my shortlist because I figured mastin had better reasons and there were so many other lurkers to choose from anyway. However, that doesn't seem to be the case now.

I think farside's town case on me consists mostly of things I could fake. I should read it again though, I didn't feel the need to pay a ton of attention to it given the contents not being terribly pertinent to my read of anyone.

ppedit: stop posting

Okay. It is pertinent to my read on Farside.

[Solar Wind]

HOLY SHIT THAT'S AN OPEN QUESTION

VOTE: metal sonic

We can't lynch Metal Sonic today. Why is he scum though? I found him quite town in his opening posts.

[Solar Wind]

would you like to claim role information that zzzx is town?

No fucking shit, sherlock.

The hell do you think ZX's been doing at the top of my damn townlist the whole fucking day?

ok.

Vote: PeregrineV

let's lynch peregrine!

I'm strongly against lynching PeregrineV because of how easy it is to get a read on him once he starts getting active.

[Solar Wind]

HOLY SHIT THAT'S AN OPEN QUESTION

VOTE: metal sonic

Bitmap locked MS away in a neighborhood where only they can post, and neither can post or vote in their other neighborhood or in the game thread until tomorrow.

This also involves a jailkeep.

p sure bitmap is town, but I don't really understand why what he did was preferable to trying to get MS lynched.

[Solar Wind]

Also, Nacho you showing up at deadline and trying to drive lynches through isn't sitting well with me.

[Solar Wind]

And if you can't figure out how to read Nacho read my posts.

I can read Nacho pretty well thank you very much.

I'm concerned that he's creating chaos this close the deadline. It doesn't mean you are necessarily scum. It is a point I want addressed so I can solidify my read. It could be a false alarm since he's done it as town before but when someone does something they routinely do as scum, I'm going to question it.

[Solar Wind]

Shit, I have to run to class. Nacho, if you are still going to be online in two hours, I'd like to discuss who to lynch.

But not PV because he's astoundingly easy to read once he actually posts and he's ridiculously useful later on in the game and his lurking is just PV being PV.

Not ZZZX because nothing he said felt scummy and I elaborate on it in my list of reads. I could be wrong here but you'll have to convince me.

Maybe Mastin but I'm not really feeling it after the soft-claim. IDK. Ffery hasn't said anything yet either.

Not Antihero because he's more ridiculously easy to read than PV.

[Solar Wind]

I really have to head out or I'll be getting late. Stay online for a couple of hours if you can.

[Solar Wind]

Nacho have you reviewed Rach, or are you going off the stuff we discussed waaaay back at the beginning of the game?

[Solar Wind]

i have read her later posting

that's all I wanted to know.

[Solar Wind]

I don't want to lynch Mask.

[Solar Wind]

f-16 and I will talk about pere when he's around again later.

[Solar Wind]

is anyone up for a TD speedlynch

I'm not.

[Solar Wind]

I am, and I think anyone reading his switch from you to the mastin wagon should also be.

why?

[Solar Wind]

you leave out all the contextual stuff that would push the reads in those directions.

[Solar Wind]

I mean some of them are dumb reads, but they're not reads he's pulling out of his ass.

[Solar Wind]

that explains so much.

[Solar Wind]

because it indicates that at best you're skimming the thread.

[Solar Wind]

because it indicates that at best you're skimming the thread.

It does?

I didn't feel the need to quote things like Cephrir's gambit - but I did read them. I just don't feel they're relevant.

yep, skimming.

[Solar Wind]

We've been trying to figure out how we feel about skybird.

[Solar Wind]

ok.

the concern we had was the house read. And just a general lack of exposure to her scum game, which we need to address at some point.

[Solar Wind]

beast has a confirmed effect on vote counts.

Mask claimed at first that his own voting effect and beast's couldn't both be town. Then he rethought.

Also TSO will fite you about that vote.

Anyway.

This is role madness. everyone is going to have interesting claims.

[Solar Wind]

thinking pretty hard about ap.

[Solar Wind]

house didn't have a vote either, I thought. looked that way in the vc's.

UNVOTE:

[Solar Wind]

Because vysepresident is now heartless and I want to give them time to do something more useful than vyse did.

As for why not revote, we'll do that after f-16 and I talk. Right now, I kinda want to vote AP, as I indicated a few posts ago.