Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I am LA til Monday and probably will not get to fully catch-up until the start of the week. That being said I have questions that I would like answers to while I do so.

Benmage

Is this another one of your questionable “fake-Cop” results? I know you have faked results in the past with variable effects (Godfather lynches to disasters) and I’m not in the mood for backtracking from you after the fact.

Please commit 100% (with no backing out) that you have a Guilty investigation result on Tammy.

Tammy

1. Why did you not shoot or vote Benmage? You keep saying you know he would know you are not Mafia if had investigated you. Why are you staking your position that he is effectively Town gambitting poorly and not backing off?
2. Why did you take so long to actually claim your Role Name? While I’m not big on ‘outguessing the Mod’ I am having some issues with the flavor of you kill compared to your claim.

Anyone Not Voting Tammy

What is your reason for not voting her?

1. Do you doubt Benmage’s guilty? If so why aren’t you voting him as Town has no reason to fake a guilty Day 2.
2. Do you want to ‘leash’ Tammy? If so please provide a link to a Theme game where leashing a killer resulted in overall Pro-Town results. Because I feel VERY, VERY strongly it is stupid and can provide many links showing that ‘leashing’ a non-Town killer results in disaster.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, so catching up to what has happened since I first posted …

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1. I'm not really doubting the guilty. But the insistence of a lynch bothers me.
2. I'd prefer you ISO me and read my posts on the matter. I'm not going to read random large themes to try to prove a point. Even if I find 5 great leashing strategies, it's likely not going to sway anyone so the work-to-reward ratio is not beneficial.

Well this tells me all I need to know. Very little reason as Town to not want to lynch a claimed guilty that you believe. Or more precisely, little reason as Town if you don’t have some significant experience here on MS where leashing worked great.

If you accept that Tammy is indeed not Town then lynching her is 100% a Pro-Town move in that it eliminates non-Town (no matter what her alignment). Lynching anyone else is a less than 100% chance of a Pro-Town outcome. No amount of arguments otherwise is all that meaningful to the discussion about why it is a bad idea.

Why is the second scumteam theory so entrenched in you? There is zero evidence to support it. Occam's razor says SK.

Then why don’t you want to eliminate a Serial Killer, reduce the number of kills that can hit Town (remember, even a leashed Serial Killer is going to hit Town more than scum) and make scum’s job harder?

Zach’s Large Normal is a perfect example of why reducing kills is Pro-Town. There RedFF SK only got one kill off all game long (Day 1, when the Mafia kill was blocked) and Town eventually won on the back of having that many extra days to analyze data and draw connections.

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Oh great, Mag is here. Now I gotta scratch mason off the fakeclaim list.

Explain.

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@MOI what fakeclaim are you referring to?

How stupid would it be to fakeclaim cop d2 in a large theme?? How easy a CC there could be. Outting the real cop, likely getting myself lynched. Idiocy. I'm tactical. Tammy didn't shoot me because she'd be lynched afterward.

That fact that you haven't voted Tammy yet, makes me more wary of your slot.

In order –

1. The fake-claims I am referring to are such

A. You fake-claimed (completely, you were not even a Cop) in some Candy / Dessert themed game (I was not in it, just remember seeing the play) and got the Mafia Godfather lynched. This is the one I would qualify as successful.
B. You fake-claimed a result (you were half Cop IIRC) on Nero (again IIRC, did not look it up) in Gorrad’s Favorite’s and got Town Nero lynched. Luckily Town was able to pull it out given your gambit was later game (Day 4 or 5, again IIRC). This is the one I would qualify as a failure.

2. It would be incredibly stupid to do so. This doesn’t directly answer my questions and that is exactly what I am looking for. Please do so. I’m not voting Tammy until you commit fully to the investigation (aka no ‘It was a Gambit’) to me now. I have little interest in ambiguity in this situation.

3. From Nero and myk I could understand the “Lulz, I’ll just call MoI scum for reaction tests” posts. You I expect better of. Stop being bad.

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1. I didn't shoot benmage because I have a town read on him. I'm not interested in shooting town. No, he would know I'm not mafia because I'm not mafia. That result is incorrect.

So your premise is you are Town unfairly scanned, Ben is truth-telling Town who just got fooled by a Tailor / insert mechanic that makes your result come back wrong here, and BloodC is your best guess for who is scum based on Day 1?

2. I didn't claim my role name right away because I was annoyed.

And if I wasn’t so steadfast interested in getting Benmage to confirm his claim I would be voting you right now as this is a Newb reason and you are not a Newb.

I never said the message would get the person night killed. I said that the person who sent the message thought his message would get him night killed and so he sent it to me. His thought rang as true paranoia, and town. I'm just not telling the message. The mod did not identify the sender.

So you can give the information in the message without compromising the sender’s identity (since you don’t know it), think they are Town (from your other posts), and still refuse to provide information about a player’s perspective that should theoretically help Town out ?

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP

(to correct a factual inaccuracy that I just realized looking at the game rundown) -

Zach’s Large Normal is a perfect example of why reducing kills is Pro-Town. There RedFF SK only got two kills off all game long (Day 1, when the Mafia kill was blocked and Day 5, which was the only one that happened with the Mafia kill) and Town eventually won on the back of having that many extra days to analyze data and draw connections.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MagnaofIllusion - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4467445

Oh cool a link. Don't agree with your position. I thought that was made clear. Scum fundamentally have no interest in wasting a kill on a non_Town player this early in the game. Return to Liten is just a personal example - ThAd was a claimed killing role that we thought might have been a SK. We didn't even think of killing him til well down the line (when only 1 or 2 scum was left) and happily let the scum with Town Cred help direct his kills to off scummy looking Townies.

@MagnaofIllusion - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19558

Yeah I played that game. Your point?

Like the normal lynch is more likely to hit town than scum. Assuming the daykill is directed by majority vote, anything that makes lynching good (as opposed to no lynch) also makes having an extra kill good.

No, it's a terrible idea. Town's advantage is having as many days as possible to analyze Vote Counts, interactions, and posts. Leashing a non-Town killer helps shorten this time frame significantly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, it doesn't. That's the point. It doubles the amount of days lynches that town has and halves the number of night-kills that scum has. It turns this game into a Double Day setup.

So what? That doesn't mean it is the best move for Town ... it's not. Again - we clearly disagree on this on a Mafia Discussion level. Quoting a Wiki Page isn't going to change that ...

@Moi

yes of course this isn't fake yeesh.

How difficult was that and why couldn't you have done it in the first place? Yes, this is rhetorical ...

-I also consider Gorrads game a success. After hammering Nero I revealed it was fake. I was a factional cop. In a confirmed multiball game where the other sides cop faction had flipped. Nero was still having me as a #1-2 suspect, after my claim. Quite the endgame liability. Therefore, because Nero is a subpar player, I thought that a success.

No, it wasn't a success but I am used to you not being objective about mis-steps you make ... like Governing Scum Zdenek in Faraday's game.

VOTE: Tammy

[MagnaofIllusion]

My question to you is; how different would that game have gone if ThAd was a DAY Vig? Knowing who "voted" for Tripod and seeing him flip Town, for example, would have given Town something to look at [akin to wagon analysis] so they could adjust their votes accordingly Day 3 - possibly lynching you or Hacker a day sooner. My opinion is that this acts like giving us a second Day phase without the scum kill at night. Yes, that effectively cuts our Day periods in half but is that to the Town's detriment? I think not.

Also him shooting Town during the Day could have also easily led to him being lynched as a Serial Killer. So if you want to play the "What if" game it cuts both ways.

Again - your thoughts on the issue really aren't going to sway my opinion and I don't know why you saying "Yates thinks it is so" is meaningful on that issue.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The point is; your argument is that Town benefits from extra days and vote analysis. My argument is that a Day vig affords us that opportunity with HALF the certain Town targets at night. Yes, scum will have *some* influence over the day kill.

By comparison, scum has 100% autonomy over the night kill. Therefore, your reason for wanting to kill the Day Vig does not hold up under scrutiny.

The bolded might be applicable if this were a Vanilla Set-up. It clearly is not so suggesting that only scum benefit from additional Nights (and Town clearly don't get investigations / protects) isn't really an Apples to Apples (and thus valid) comparison.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, thank you for that. That was a pretty cool read.

You are welcome. SaintK is a great Mod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to know how much and what portions of the thread he had read before asking his opening questions on the Tammy/Banmage situation.

@MagnaofIllusion - what's your read on Acosmist?

I quick-read basically the 5 pages before I replaced in, scanned Tammy’s ISO to look for her claim, and scanned Benmage’s ISO to see if how he claimed. So … I haven’t read much. I've very casually followed along since the game began. Enough to know that AV got exploded Day 1 for example.

On Acosmist – I scanned his ISO. He claimed PGO post 1 which is proper play. The name-claim is Null (Solid Snake is not guaranteed to not be a fake-claim). He will not make it to far in the game if he is faking scum as the claim will eventually be tested by some role.

The rest of his ISO would have me say “Town” if you put a gun to my head based my Town and Scum Acosmist experience.

@KK

– So where is your case on Acos for me to review?

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MOI replaces a scum slot?!?

Votecount 2.17

Not voting - PeregrineV,

Nero Cain

So if I’m scum and you are against all the current wagons why are you not voting me again?

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Why aren't you more interested in what was said in the neighborhood?

No clue you were in a Neighborhood. How does this work into your claim again?

Also, someone check the math for me. Myk is concerned about being put at evens. Actually lynching me today keeps you at evens.

Oh dear … that’s a very compelling reason to not lynch someone with a Guilty result on them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Myk has mentioned more than once his oncern for being put at evens, saying if we didn't lynch me today, we shouldn't return to the discussion until the day after tomorrow because of evens. I realized he's off on what day would be evens.

The best reasons nor to take me out is to force mafia to deal with me through a night kill and allow me to continue to use my VIG shot to help town.

The neighborhood has nothing to do with my claim. You were wondering why I wasn't outing the message as if that would help town when it wouldn't, but you didn't ask what was said in the neighborhood, which I think would be something you would be more interested in.

Whatever babbling Myk is doing doesn't really matter much to me but thanks for the background.

No, the best reason to not lynch you is that Benmage is faking a claim. And neither he nor you suggest that is the case. "Letting the Mafia kill you" is just shorthand for "Give me one more day" which is scum motivated play.

So why haven't you given a rundown of the Neighborhood (excluding names and using aliases if you are "worried about survivability") since you are going to get hammered sooner or later? Or is the Neigborhood content "not helpful to Town" also?

[MagnaofIllusion]

scanned Tammy’s ISO to look for her claim,

You were saying?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey, it does.

Cool. Lets have this whole discussion again tomorrow.

So you unvoted a Cop Guilty that you aren’t disputing because it may put you on Evens. In a Large Theme game with 18 players left. When possible protections may over the course of the many days to come mess with the numbers? Nope.jpg. Add in that you seem to explicitly know that only 1 Scum Nightkill exists (since your assessment is driven by that as a fact) and I think the obvious result is scum.

Everybody cares about the numbers game. That's why people are talking about "double day" and "kill the sk now so we have more lynches". The fact is that lynching tammy now simply is the worse strategy, regardless of where you stand in the debate above.

More accurately enough bad Town and scum ‘care’ about the numbers game to obstruct the obv lynch and your “it is the worst lynch” stance is just plain so wrong I don’t even …

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If he were town, he'd know better. Khan's right. Everyone off the Tammy wagon's right, on the game being double-day.

Still waiting for a single person to actually show outcomes in non-Vanilla Double Day games are better for Town than the average non-Vanilla game. Imagine I am going to be waiting a long, long time and will be seeing more derp like this.

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I never claimed to have relevant information for the setup. I only confirmed that someone sent me a message so that when they claimed it either at massclaim or at lynch it would be confirmed that they did.

So why is that relevant given that the Messanger role is not Alignment driven?

--

Wait, what? Why would someone potentially suicide themselves?

Because later in the game it would certainly be worth it to test. It’s not some outrageous concept as you are making it out to be. A role that has Night actions but isn’t powerful in catching scum (for example … a Neighborizor like Nero or an Inventor with a single remaining Invention)

As an example – Katuski fake-claimed PGO in Gay Mafia and was eventually caught when Pine took the chance of targeting him.

So I looked at your case on Acosmist …

* Failure to do any original scum-hunting
* Votes and suspects only people that express suspicion towards him
* Essentially he's been coasting on his claim. He's protected himself from any night-activity and responds to any pressure with aggressive OMGUS.
* If he didn't claim PGO (which, as it's pointed out, any early claim should be treated as a VT), would you think he was town?

My response is –

1. This is an eye of beholder thing. While he’s not making large cases and pushing based on them he is making his opinion heard and isn’t afraid (from my quick ISO skim) to take unpopular ones (Benmage as scum). Do you have a scum reads on the other (well, I don’t particularly directly know since I haven’t fully read but I have seen several “lots of lurker” comments) slots not scum-hunting originally also?
2. OMGUS isn’t a scum-tell.
3 and 4. Meh. This is 100% driven based on his claim. The manner in which he claimed it rings Pro-Town to me. You clearly disagree.

I’m not moved. My read on his slot, again, is based on experience. I have seen recent Town Acosmist and Scum Acosmist. This ISO, at a glance, reads much more as Town Acosmist to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I heard stuff about you, and I expected more from you tbh. I'm pretty sure I've considered every possible way this could go, posts about it are all over the place in between normal play.

The fact that Tammy is a claimed SK puts this beyond "hurr durr there is a guilty we lynch it". It allows you to think for once. I suggest you try it, it seems thinking makes you more clever.

Oh myk it's so cute that you

1. Pretend we never played together before (btw, Everone's a Critic as a reminder )and thus you are just going off second-hand knowledge.
2. Think that leashing a Serial Killer is a good play ever for Town.
3. Think that such a weak-handed insult isn't anything but humorous.

And most importantly (so I'm bolding it)

4. make this post which speaks to me in the clear voice of "You are stupid Town" when you've been calling me scum. Funny how your posting doesn't match your claimed read.

Number 4, for the record, is why Myk is scum regardless of Tammy's flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now I think I will take a stroll through AV’s ISO and see what I can find –

His first post has a vote for Jason. With vague reasoning.

I think it's much more concerning that he'd ever think scum would fakeclaim Solid Snake in a Harry Potter themed game in the first place.
Reads to me like he's faking not knowing flavour.

Note to self

– see if any more now Newb / VI players take this sort of manufactured “It’s not a MGS game it is a Harry Potter game” since AV flipped MGS.

Votes Yates at Post 123 with typical lack of reasoning.

If Tammy flips Alt-Scum then I would be looking right at one of Jason / Yates as partners. So not much else there to go by.

--

Moving on to look at the composition of the end of Day mislynch wagon …

Melmond - 11 (Tammy, zabriel, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, BloodCovenant, Benmage, Yates, AngryPigeon, snifit, rapidcanyon, mykonian)

Not much overlap with the current Tammy wagon. Only Benmage, WrathChild, and AngryP are on both. This actually fits well with my reads since I think that the pidgey counterwagon to a Cop guilty is suspect. Once Tammy flips and we get confirmation of her actual alignment this is going to be a very nice dichotomy to dissect for VCA purposes regardless of the set-up.

For example – these posts by Scumykonian –

Even beyond what it is saying, which is already a poor reason to vote,

the "lol" at the end of the sentence makes it even worse.

And this is what pidgey vote on? Come on guys.

For the record. Throwaway vote on a protown dude. No reasoning, no nothing, just a place for your vote.

First off you know who doesn’t attack high profile ‘Power-players’ (which is a category Benmage falls into, especially given his tendency to attack those attacking him)? Scum who are not in that same category.

And pidgey (nothing personal pidgey) clearly isn’t. It’s a pretty strong Town tell (and coming from me this is saying something since I tend to dismiss most claimed Town tells myself) for a player of pidgey’s rep to vote Benmage with such weak reasoning. It is exactly the same way I identified Ranmaru correctly as Town in that game ... we was fearless about going right after Yosarian despite scum being in a terrible spot.

And look at the bolded in the first quote. Did anyone call him on that because that is such crap I can’t believe it didn’t happen.

Despite pidgey’s flailing “NO CASE ON ME” which is meh but null he does have a point – why exactly is pidgey scum? Someone have an actual case because Scumkyonian’s posts above actually are an example of scum looking at low-hanging fruit and trying to mock it up as actual scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's two years ago, I don't remember my games that well, I fear. And since there isn't actually a downside, I see no reason that you wouldn't let tammy kill. Unless you are worried you get shot, naturally. In that case it's perfectly safe to take your approach "you ALWAYS lynch a cop guilty, don't think, just do it."

Look at this response. Look carefully at it. I'll translate for those who don't speak scum -

1. Ooops, got caught with my hand in the cookie jar in my offhanded smear effort that backfired. Lulz, just laugh it off.
2. I'll just continue to assert there is no downside and pretend that just handwaves away the many already brought up downsides (shortening the game, allowing SK / Mafia Tammy to go rogue later, no viable argument for why you don't lynch 100% scum, lack of viable proof that Double Days in non Vanilla actually benefit Town, that the 'numbers argument' isn't pure crap).
3. Ignores me, his scum read, calling him scum and doesn't address the fact he is posting towards me as Town not scum (Cognitive Dissonance ho!).
4. Oh, he's worried about being shot fluff mudslinging.

You should have known better than to wake the Dragon Myk. Now I'm going to have your scummy neck in hemp tomorrow ASAP!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Angry I appreciate you enthusism. Don't let it blind you to getting rid of Tammy.

Revote her.

Also - I'd suggest that WrathChild is probably (without a read-through, natch) not nearly the candidate that Mykonian is. If you aren't voting Tammy at least put your vote in the best possible spot - on Scumykonian.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Boy, what if lynching Tamy makes town auto-lose. Playing the hypothetical game gets you nowhere.

Well to this point that is exactly what you (and everyone else) who is proposing leashing Tammy is doing since it is, as far as I can see, 100% opinion that DoubleDay style play is superior in a non-Vanilla environment. Again … feel free to prove me wrong on that.

MagnaofIllusion wants to play follow-the-cop instead of scum-hunting?

What a

nice

interesting

unique take.

1. I’ve already mined out Scumykonian so pretending I’m not wanting to scum-hunt is just plain wrong.
2. You keep playing this balancing act where you are trying to assert it is scummy to want to lynch on a Cop Guilty while asserting that you believe Benmage is Town and believe his results. Frankly I don’t quite get that but … heck … I didn’t get your strong defense of scum in Scummies 2012 either.

Yes, double day makes it so town powers can't act, but guess what? Scum can't kill. Benefit outweigh loss.

Passing over the obvious relational tells benefits of an extended game? Why is that? Ignoring my direct example where the Serial Killer being effective nullified all game long made it too difficult for scum to win? Why is that?

@MagnaofIllusion - Would you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK scummy?

Would I consider them what? For lynching? For a book club?

[MagnaofIllusion]

He's hoping to coast through the day, coasting through a lynch, so that he can get into night and coordinate with his scumbuddies while catching up,

since right now, he replaced in under pressure.

Hey mastin! I enjoyed your fiction. A nice comedy read. Why don’t you actually show where I have the slightest bit of pressure?

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Even in the game you posted where ThAd was a Vig, he wasn't a Town controlled shot. That's why I keep saying I feel like we are in a unique position here.

Well point me in the direction of a ”Town directed Dayvig” that turned up scum (aka by linking). Because I can easily link you to one off the top of my head. I can probably find others if necessary.

As to the concern about WHEN to kill her? How about three shots that hit Town? That's how long ThAd lasted in the game you referenced and he actually WAS a Town Vig. She has hit one already so she's down to two more strikes. And remember, we would be holding HER responsible for OUR collective decision. I would obviously listen to a logical reason why that number should be higher or lower but two seems fair in a game this size.

Well count me as someone who doesn’t believe in directing. The ‘collective’ decision to lynch Day 1 hit Town. I’d rather save the two Townies stikes you are giving her to make scum have to chew threw them myself.

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Pretty sure I asked for a single shot. Stop strawmanning MoI.

Oh, so now it is simply a single shot based on ‘Evens’. Again in a Large Theme game where we already have a demonstrated lack of Night 1 kill so the ‘maths’ really are meaningless. Ok. (yes, that’s a sarcastic OK). I appreciate you are moving to "let's keep the Cop Guilty that no-one including said Guilty wants to dispute alive again to shoot another Town before lynching her so we help out scum" as your stance.

Anyway, for who do not see what waking the dragon means: last couple of posts MoI just ensures he discredits every single point I made and makes it look scum.

Even if you don't care about us, there isn't a single scum who makes 5 scumpoints in every single post.

Meaning what MoI is doing isn't scumhunting, he's trying to get people on a bandwagon, arguing for a lynch by showing an overwhelming amount of information that I'm scum. That that happens with strawmans is no problem. Honesty isn't the goal. This dragon isn't there to play nice, he's there to argue people to death.

Well …. Speaking of strawmen look to the bolded. It’s the kind of “MoI is calling us scummy, so let’s ignore the content and throw mud. That’s ironically that is exactly what you are doing – you are explicitly saying “He’s just not comfortable and thus every post shows scum flailing looking to find anything he can use on me”.

I’ll wait for you to actually try to refute my posts where I indicate your scum motivation. Again – I expect to be waiting a long, long while.

And there's the same bullshit you pulled with benmage as well. So, uhm, who else do you think is stupid/pulls pointless stunts so we can get that out of the way right now? Or are you going to do such a thing each time someone says something useful?

The irony here. It is palpable. As a reminder Scumykonian has no issues with bringing up pass-play as shown here …

MoI, I heard stuff about you, and I expected more from you tbh. I'm pretty sure I've considered every possible way this could go, posts about it are all over the place in between normal play.

The fact that Tammy is a claimed SK puts this beyond "hurr durr there is a guilty we lynch it". It allows you to think for once. I suggest you try it, it seems thinking makes you more clever.

But look at the ‘outrage’ when I do the same … it is pure scum motivated play.

Lulz.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You understand game balance, right?

Double-Days are rarely, if at all, non-vanilla because having two lynches is a huge advantage to town. So much of an advantage that they don't need additional power roles.

Yes I understand game balance.

The implicit argument you are making here is that DoubleDay is overwhelmingly Town sided. Yet there is no ‘evidence’ of that in any meaningful way that I have seen. The Wiki shows that more Vanilla DoubleDay games have been won by scum than Town (1 Mafia Win and 1 Town win for DoubleDay per Wiki, 2 Mafia wins and 1 Town win for DoubleDay Unlimited). This sample size is so small it is frankly meaningless and I’m not taking it as gospel since, you know, it is the Wiki and thus probably very incomplete.

Again – do you have anything you can point me to that suggests in any way the unproven premise you are floating actually reflects reality from actual games?

Yes, do you not understand the argument? Cop has a guilty on someone who is not on the scum faction. Scum will wagon that like no tomorrow and have much to gain from having town lynch someone that they ordinarily have to night-kill.

Scum can just as easily endgame said role as take the proactive (and clearly controversial) stance that removing a Non-Town killer as long as they are not ‘shot’. So you are playing ‘hypothetical’ and I don’t really care to buy into that given every example I have ever seen of ‘leashing’ turned out poorly for Town.

Show me something to change my mind. Until then I don’t think this discussion is changing either of our minds.

"I can't counter Khan's arguments, so let me bring up the fact that he's been wrong in the past."

Actually I have countered your arguments. You don’t agree. Those are different things.

Giving the SK's power to town hurts scum. Scum must kill the SK. What is difficult about understanding the concept. How come you can only talk about and ask for precedents? Why can't you logic right?

Scum don’t have to kill the Serial Killer if his ‘guided’ shots don’t hit scum. That’s the key missing link to your premise that isn’t fact yet you seem to be glossing over that.

Look at Tammy’s shot today. Was there “Town consensus” on shooting ThAd? Why do you expect better results tomorrow regardless of whether the answer is Yes or No? Day 1’s lynch also isn’t very compelling evidence that Town is going to ‘Leash the Beast’ effectively.

My sentence structure is correct. It's just a little muddled. I'm asking if you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK to be scummy.

No, not at this stage with the information I have access to. I’d lean that it is probably more likely we are in a Mafia + Serial Killer set-up given the size of the game but it would not be astonishing for it to be Multiball.

Do you think that it is inherently scummy at this stage?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh how cute ... now that the pidgey wagon has been called out as low-lying fruit scum have regrouped and want to take a run at me.

Let me go find Mastin's quotes to see if what Peregrine is suggesting (that he's completely contradicting himself) is valid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again. This is not scumhunting. This is trying to discredit those off the Tammy wagon, with an added bonus of OMGUS thrown in.

MoI isn't aiming to lynch scum. He's aiming to cast doubt. On Khan, on me, on everyone off of Tammy, and on Tammy herself for that matter.

This. is. scuMoI.

Nope. I'm Town. Throwing down 'Appeals to Repetition' doesn't make anything you say valid or accurate.

You are suggesting you know it is ScumMoI despite the fact that the only time I recall you as being in the same game with me scum (Zach's Large Normal) you completely failed to identify me. So all you are doing is yelling "SCUM SCUM SCUM" Fate style here.

The rest of your case is "Acosmist and MoI are linked" relational tells which you known are meaningless in since there is no flips to be had.

Oh and saying I'm not scum-hunting? That's pretty laughable since in my short time in game I've identified Scumykonian and shown scum intent in his play. Yes, ignore that and pretend otherwise.

You can continue to try to push on these empty statements and fabrications if you want. But you aren't going to get me lynched. So waste your time if you want.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Irony at its finest.
Guess what the case against Tammy is?
The same points, hammered in over and over again as if saying them more times will make it any more true.

You don't understand irony then. Because the case against Tammy is a "Cop Guilty" that no-one other than Tammy disputes. And despite the many ways that ignoring that fact by saying "Oh, she's a Serial Killer we can leash her" that is what you call a pretty compelling case unless you think Benmage is scum or derping as Town (which you don't).

But by all means try to draw parallels between your "SCUM SCUM SCUM" empty repetition and a Cop guilty.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I read games too, MoI. I've read many games with you as town, and many with you as scum. I can tell the difference, and this discrediting is practically your signature as scum.

No you clearly can't since I am Town.

Why the chainsaw for Mykonian by the way? Is he an important scum-role for you guys?

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey, see, I knew you wouldn't forget about me! I almost thought you would switch to Mastin there for a second.

Hey, you called us both scum! You are the best!

Well given that there has to be more than one scum remaining I'm not sure why you would find it unusual that I would have multiple suspects.

But this is the pure kind of scum-hunting that mastin thinks I am lacking - I can tell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not exactly sold on the MagnaOfIllusion case, but i want a lynch. Unvote: pidgey, Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

Anyone in the pool snifit / pidgey / Ascomist would have my full support. There are other decent possibilities i could get behind.

Interesting that instead of pushing for either of the candidates you full support (pidgey, Acos) you choose instead to basically sheep a case (which is a joke, BTW) aren’t ‘sold on’. Noted.

--

Mastin’s ‘case’ (and I use the term loosely here) in Post 2225 is quite funny and can be summed up as laughable as

1. It uses OMGUS as a scum-tell. And to make it more comical his premise is that I’m OMGUSING Mykonian when I vote and presented scummy play by him and Mykonian only actually said anything other than “You are scum” after I nailed him.
2. It’s buzzword bingo – look how often the word discredit appears. Then read my ISO – he’s labeling anything where I question someone as discrediting since it is buzzword with negative connotations.
3. He’s not interested in looking at motivations. For example he ‘dings’ me for OMGUSing Nero for this post where I question why he calls me scum but isn’t voting me since his vote is idle. That’s very Pro-Town play and yet he tries to spin it as a scum-tell.
4. He’s again hoping that repeating things that aren’t even close to true (that I’m not scum-hunting, that I’m obv-Scum) is going to sway votes. Not Town-oriented behavior at all.

As a reminder – look at the timing of his attack. It comes right after I call out Mykonian for being scummy.

--

Now let’s put all the things I’ve pointed out about mykonian in one nice post so it is easy to reference.

Point 1

– treatment of the Tammy wagon

AngryP first brings this up but I want to revisit it clearly – mykonian’s play around the Tammy wagon doesn’t make any sense as being from a Town motivated perspective.

He first votes Tammy based on the Guilty by Benmage.

He unvotes at Post 1268 for the following reasons –

unvote

Well, this one is easy to figure out. Tammy gets shot in the face within a day: she wasn't the dayvig. Someone else gets shot: she is!

I think benmage might want to fullclaim before he's shot (so if you are town tammy, please don't act too quickly)

So he believes that her “I’m the Dayvig” claim is enough to not lynch her via testing.

I also want to bring up Post 1283 where Mykonian says the following –

nero, if tammy is town, that's a flat out fakeclaim from ben, and he isn't taking it back in any form. She should shoot that if she's town.

So he’s discussing with Nero the possibility that if she is Town Benmage is fake-claiming and should be shot. Contrast that with his Post 1971 where he calls me scummy for upon replacing in specifically asking Benmage to confirm for me that it wasn’t a gambit as I’ve seen him make in the past. There is clearly disconnect there. He himself questioned Benmage’s veracity (in saying it was a fake-claim from Ben) at one point in the process yet calls me scummy for doing the exact same thing. Strong Cognitive Dissonance.

Now back to his play re: the Wagon …

He revotes Tammy as shown –

yeah, I wasn't at my strongest yesterday. Should have filtered a bit more. Sorry about that, I was working a bit sleep deprived.

Benmage is right. If tammy was town, she'd have shot him. Tammy however in her posts already gave up. She claims she'll act town motivated, which I believe, I guess.

The problem is still that she makes the last choice (as she did with thadmiral here), which wasn't the choice of a majority of town. I'm doubtful that she'll act like a second lynch.

If it's indeed day-sk/one scumteam, we should lynch her today, or in two days, to end up at a uneven number. After that, the fact that the SK is gone simply means more mislynches for us as there are less townies getting shot.

I think I'm taking the 50% shot at scum tammy. I don't think you'll hit that 50% if we give you two more kills.

vote tammy

The bold is what I want to address. That is exactly my thought process that others (specifically Mastin who is chainsawing for him) are calling scummy – that killing off the Serial Killer now leaves Town more chances to lynch successfully with an elongated time frame for Cops / VCA / every other analysis trick in the book. And it is clear he has considered the leashing angle given the first sentence I bolded and decided it was not the best course of action.

Secondly I want to address this line “we should lynch her today, or in two days, to end up at a uneven number”. I’ve already addressed how the ‘uneven’ argument is statistics masturbation as opposed to anything to even consider Day 2 in a Large Theme (given the many variables that render lining up Evens / Odds Day 2 meaningless) but let’s set that aside. He specifically says that he wants the Day Tammy is lynched to end up on an uneven number. There are 18 players alive right now. The lynch will put us at 17 – uneven.

Next look at this post –

Hey, it does.

Cool. Lets have this whole discussion again tomorrow.

vote pidgey I didn't forget about you!

He agrees with Tammy saying lynching her keeps it on evens. Actually it doesn’t. It puts at at Odds (17) and working on the ‘Single Mafia Team’ theory Town would stay at Odds with each Nightkill. So his reasoning for not voting her doesn’t line up to the easy to determine facts (number of players alive).

Let’s fast forward to later on when he says the following –

Pretty sure I asked for a single shot. Stop strawmanning MoI.

Nope. The bolded above clearly shows he said “either lynch her today or in TWO days”. So he’s contradicting himself again in scrambling to say I’m Strawmanning.

Summary

– Mykonian’s actions (not wanting to lynch Tammy today) don’t back up the posts he made surrounding her wagon (that he wants to end the Day on Evens, that he doesn’t believe she can be leashed). That's Cognitive Dissonance which is a strong scum-tell.

Point 2

– Treating me as Town while calling me scum.

After I pointed this out Mastin tried to unsuccessfully use it against me so we know it is a valid tell. Post 2154 could not be more clearly be aimed at a Town player.

MoI, I heard stuff about you, and I expected more from you tbh. I'm pretty sure I've considered every possible way this could go, posts about it are all over the place in between normal play.

The fact that Tammy is a claimed SK puts this beyond "hurr durr there is a guilty we lynch it". It allows you to think for once. I suggest you try it, it seems thinking makes you more clever.

Read the first part. He’s saying “He you should be playing better than this and suspecting me”. That’s not something you say to Scum. Scum want mislynches and seeing what you think is a ‘subpar’ opinion coming from them shouldn’t be met with “Hey, be better”. It should be met with “Scum pushing on me poorly, lulz” (you know, like my response to Mastin). So Mykonian is addressing me as Town yet supposedly thinks I’m scum (though at this stage the only reason in his ISO to support that is Post 1971 which is a generic “Oh, you scum”).

The second sentence is more Point 1 contradiction – he’s saying the Serial Killer isn’t a ‘hurr durr’ lynch a guilty but his own posts indicate he should be lynching her today.

I have several more points to make (for example, he’s totally into pidgey as scum … look at all the posts pointing it out … now it is also a trap where he was hoping to get called out on attacking pidgey and find scum also) but this post is long enough and I need lunch.

Suffice it to say Scumykonian should eat Rope tomorrow after we get rid of SK-Tammy today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And the expected reply by Mastin …

Nothing to say about the merits of the points brought up against Mykonian?

Why is that? Don’t want to much attention to be paid to the case?

Again, discrediting the people off the Tammy wagon.
And yes, I use the word discrediting, because it's perfectly accurate.

Does MoI think the whole Tammy wagon is town? Does MoI think the entire scumteam is off the Tammy wagon?

His posts certainly would say as much, considering he's done nothing, nothing* to pressure ANYONE on the wagon, and is pushing EXCLUSIVELY off the Tammy wagon.

No, frankly you use the word discrediting because it’s negatively charged. It’s a great mudslinging tool.

Am I not allowed to point out that Elocusta’s motivations as stated are at best wonky? That’s the premise I see here – that my pointing out of facts that are inconvenient to your arguments are simply discrediting. I see you avoid discussing the Nero Cain situation in this response. I take it you don’t want, again, to draw attention to things that show your case if more full of holes than Swiss cheese.

On the bolded – that’s a very interesting fluff. You know, of course the answer is No. My question to you is this Mastin –

Do you think the entire pool of players not voting for Tammy are Town?

– because that is the premise you are floating to support me looking at players off the Wagon. And it clearly isn’t scummy to look at people I suspect who aren’t voting for Tammy given I don’t see Town motivation (or, at least, logical Town motivation) in not getting rid of player with a killing role that no-one but herself disputes is not-Town.

So despite using All-Caps to show how IMPORTANT (yes, this is sarcasm in my response, sue me) and POWERFUL your words are the fact remains that there is nothing scummy in looking at players off the Tammy wagon I see playing to a scum-motivated Wincon. This is a Large Theme game. There are going to be scum both places. The ones I have identified so far just happen to be the easiest to spot (thanks to Mykonian's terribly obvious play and your chain-sawing).

Again, this isn't scumhunting. I say it plainly, I say it bluntly, because there is no other word to describe it. It's discrediting, plain and simple. It's casting doubt on players. He's not trying to find scum--he's trying to make people doubt their townreads.

Doubt the townread on Benmage*, doubt the townreads on Khan,

doubt the townreads on me, on myk, doubt Tammy's sincerity, doubt Nero, doubt the players off the Tammy wagon in general. He's not applying pressure to those people because he thinks that they're scum. He's applying pressure to those people to make people doubt their credibility, to doubt their sincerity, to doubt that their course of action is the right one. Not only does that further the scum agenda of getting Tammy lynched, it ALSO casts doubt come night-time, making protective PRs second-guess their protection choices (allowing the scum to get away with blatant nightkills such as myself) and investigation roles to second-guess their choices (allowing the scum to avoid investigation and allowing the town to waste investigations on people who are likely to die, such as myself).

In regards to the bolded – I’d like you to support each and every one of those with actual links to me showing me doing that. Because you can’t. Questioning Benmage upon replacing in to make sure he isn’t fake-claiming (which he has done with mixed results in the past as Town) isn’t doubting my read on him. Same with Khan – just because I think he’s not posting logically at all about about the Tammy situation doesn’t mean I think he’s not Town.

I do admit fully I am ‘trying to get people to doubt their Townreads’ on Myk and yourself – you are scum and that’s part of scum-hunting.

So this is just mudslinging. Getting rid of a Not-Town killer is Pro-Town. I’m still waiting for you to demonstrate that it’s not. I, of course, have already showed support (a game where a Serial Killer basically got blocked all game and Town won due to the elongated length since the game was not balanced for a Serial Killer to not kill) and can show more (Plum’s LOTR game where a claimed Serial Killer who was ‘leashed’ never shot scum, Andrius’s Olympus game where a Serial Killer with a different Wincon would have destroyed Town’s long-term chances) that demonstrates the idea is bunk.

Bluntly, I'm not pushing MoI based off of his words. He's an airtight enough scum player that he doesn't scumslip, he doesn't do stupid stuff as scum, he doesn't say scummy stuff.

He does, however, show an agenda, as town and as scum. As town, the agenda is to find scum, using town's power to its absolute fullest in order to do so. Maximize efficiency, build in redundancy, use good coordination combined with good scumhunting and solid reads.

Look at the bolded and realize that Mastin is contradicting himself in a huge way.

He’s floating that I’m not going to make posts that can easily be tagged as scummy. Yet that is exactly what he is claiming I have done with my push on Tammy when I replaced in. Furthermore in the paragraph above he claims (incorrectly) it is obv-scummy that I’m not suspecting anyone off the Tammy wagon. Yet if the first sentence was here was really what he believed he would think Scum MoI would have thrown in at least 1 or 2 suspicions on the wagon as well.

I’ll translate this for you – mastin doesn’t want to get into a Case-Making battle with me because he knows he can’t win that. So he’s just going to keep lobbing false-hoods and generalities at me and hope they stick. He dodged addressing Point 4 of Post 2238 in this post and only now is trying (and failing) to address Point 3 after I called him out on the obvious lack of motivation hunting.

As scum, the agenda is, once more, exactly what he's doing: to hide scum from the town, to minimize town's power, to weaken their roles and make them lack the synchronization they are intended to have. Make them inefficient, leave gaps in their defenses, leave holes for the scum to slip through, where all the roles are made to be weak links--combined with pushing seemingly easy targets for halfhearted reasons, buddying hardcore to those who support him while viciously trying to discredit those opposed to him, without thought for them being town. Weak reads highly OMGUS in nature.

Look – a whole bunch of fluff. What he is lacking is showing how I am doing this. How am I ‘minimizing Town’s power’ and ‘weakening their roles’? Nothing to be seen for actual support on that – just bland sweeping generalities.

OMGUS by itself is not a scumtell, sure. (Quite frankly, I see the term as overused--so whenever I do use it, you have to realize that it's serious.) Thecircumstances, the motive, of the OMGUS is what makes the difference between town OMGUS and scum OMGUS. Town OMGUS is based on thinking that the attacks against you are motivated by scum. Scum OMGUS is motivated by trying to keep yourself alive and desperation. MoI displays the latter, because he's attacked literally everyone who's even shown interest in attacking him, and he's also reverse-OMGUS'd by doing the opposite for those who have shown thoughts of him being town, buddying to players like AP hardcore.

Nope.jpg. I’m showing the scum intent of yourself and mykonian (who only attacked me, natch, after I called mykonian out) and questioning the motivations of others whose behavior doesn’t seem at first impression to be Town motivated. Trying to simply boil it down to OMGUS is mudslinging – which is Mastin’s specialty this game.

[quote="Mastin] And again, if a player not interested in lynching Tammy doubts my case, doubts that what MoI has done is nothing but discrediting and is not actually scumhunting, then I can go into detail about each point--but because it's MoI who's asking, because MoI WANTS to fight, he wants to argue with me, to muddy the waters, to further cast doubt and cloud the thread, I won't do so with just his provocation.[/quote]

Funny that the only people who seem interested in your mudslinging push on Town me are those who unsurprisingly already were in the “Don’t Lynch Tammy” pool. This is a nicely worded “I don’t want to lose a back and forth with MoI since I know he’s not scum and he has the facts on his side so I’ll just say this as an excuse to duck out on the battle I know I am going to lose”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In other words, the scum have nothing to gain by keeping her alive.

Nope. This is completely wrong. Scum benefit from keeping her alive to kill Townies (like ThAd) and make the reduction of Town's first strength (Numbers, which is very important) go as fast as possible. And as long as scum can do a good enough job 'manipulating' the Town direction of her shots that is a very compelling reason to keep her alive.

You of course glossed over Return to Liten (Yates commented on it) where the scum team didn't kill the Town Vig (who in the scum's opinion could have been a Serial Killer) because he wasn't a threat to them via his read. I'm sure you did that because it is yet another 'inconvienent fact' that undercuts your scummy push.

@Mastin - still no comment on my Mykonian case? Why don't you show where it is faulty / scummy if I'm scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

As the above post demonstrates?

YES.

See also, my experience in 1377. This push against Tammy is eerily similar to the scum's push against RM that game. That wagon had all three scum on it; it was an incredibly scum-driven mislynch. The push against RM became strongest after he had claimed VT, and the scum knew they could get away with lynching him.

Thanks for clearly demonstrating you are scum and have forced yourself to take a stance that

CLEARLY

isn't valid. If bets were allowed I'm be willing to make an 'Account Retirement' bet that there was zero chance that every single scum was as of this post on the Wagon. But since that is against site rules I'll just point out how stupid that concept is.

And you are referencing a Mini Theme game as your support? And from what you are saying here a Mini Theme where someone was pushed after he claimed VT as an Apples to Apples type of game? Please link us to the posts that you think demonstrate how that game is anything like this one.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let's not lose sight of the facts in my demolition of Scumykonian and his Chainsawing big brother Mastin -

Tammy needs to be lynched. Deadline is nigh upon us. I'll deal with the ScumderTwins going forward either by leading their hanging or having them Nightkill me as expected (thus validating my suspicions for everyone to see).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tammy - 7 (snifit, Kise, Benmage, pidgey, WrathChild, MagnaofIllusion, Acosmist)
pidgey - 3 (Elscouta, zabriel, jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 3 (Tammy, AngryPidgeon, PeregrineV)
MagnaofIllusion - 3 (mykonian, mastin2, Kublai Khan)
Acosmist - 1 (Yates)

Not voting - Nero Cain

I'm quoting this to illustrate the following so that it does not get lost in the shuffle down the line

. This is the mod's last Vote-Count.

Mastin is floating the concept that he believes ALL THE SCUM are solely to be found on the Tammy wagon. We will set aside Tammy from this discussion since Mastin isn't disputing (that I can see) she isn't Town simply because she is the wagon in question and isn't going to vote herself.

So per Mastin all the scum are in - Snifit, Kise, Benmage, pidgey, WC, MoI, Acos.

A quick glance at mastin's ISO indicates that today he doesn't consider Benmage scum. So all the scum (and in a game starting with 21 players - probably a good bet at least 3-4 alive if this is Singleball as most people are suggesting) are in

snifit, Kise, pidgey, WC, MoI, Acos - So statistically we are looking at a 50/50 at worst within this group.

Does anyone outside of Mastin believe he's managed to narrow down the entirety of scum in this game Day 2 to a group that at worst is a 50/50 shot? If you do I have a Bridge in Brooklyn that I desperately need to sell you so I can help out my dear old Mom languishing in an Old Folks Home.

Also keep in mind that Mastin has also stipuated that Acos and myself MUST be the same alignment today in his posts. It's possible he is playing the "link Town MoI to partner game" but given my Town read on Acos I'm thinking probably not. So when I eventually am Nightkilled and flip Town remember that Mastin has staked out the position that this clears Acos.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This day sucks and im yet to reread but:

a. Tammy is apperantly not getting enough support.

Tammy has 7 votes. That's by far the most viable wagon given there are players (AngryP) who will vote her per their posting.

Don't move your vote pidgey!

[MagnaofIllusion]

/busy. But will say would rather no-lynch than lynch Tammy. Much would prefer MoI, though.

Of course you would. Mislynching me would be a feather in your cap! Although it would mean that Tammy would have to shoot you tomorrow as obv-scum.

When you get unbusy you can take a look at my case on Mykonian and comment on it. I'm not letting you get off directly examining it since you've been mudslinging that I am not scum-hunting. Nope.jpg.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Absolutely yes.

By nature, mafia have more knowledge of the game setup than town does. Most notably, they know the size of their scum group. If they feel that their scum group feels small and under-powered, then they are more likely to suspect that there is a second mafia group. If there isn't, then they will cry foul about town being over-powered.

Ok, I see what you are saying. What I don’t see is why you think people floating the opinion that Tammy could be part of a Mafia group are inherently scummy. If it is proven that it is Multiball then full speed ahead on that. If it turns out this is Singleball (which is more likely, as discussed) then I see that “Tammy could be Alt Mafia” to be at worst Null (as Town, having less information, have to keep their options open until evidence proves otherwise).

I broke down and argued against all the counter-arguments to keeping Tammy alive in Post 1933. Your desire for a Tammy lynch falls under the dogmatic uncreative category of "We must follow-the-cop". I think you're better than that.

Also, you've asking to examples in order to compare situations in theme games against each other. Then when you're given a link to double-day, you cry that the sample size is too small.

There's never going to be the proper information to convince you of anything, so you're camping your vote behind dogma. I've made the point (and mastin2 recently echoed it) that scum are very likely to have jumped on the Tammy wagon in masse, but you've dismissed that argument seemingly giving it barely any thought beyond mockery.

Well I’m not sure what post you are supposed to be going for since 1933 is a Tammy post. Do you mean Post 1953? If so your break-down is basically “I’ll shout that my opinion is correct” IMO. Sorry, but your argument boils down to “Scum MUST shoot the Serial Killer” which I have demonstrated is not a truism but situational. And only scum know what side of the situation we fall on.

The bolded is frankly bullshit – you keep floating the “DoubleDay is Obv-Town oriented” with not a lick of evidence to support your OPINION. And I bolded that ala Mascum for a reason … it is just that. You’ve not provide a bit of actual support for that. You aren’t showing me that “Town wins DoubleDay games at a rate X% higher than the average on-site regular Mafia game”. You show me DoubleDay which has exactly two games listed (1 scum and 1 Town win) and DoubleDay Unlimited which has exactly three games listed (2 scum and 1 Town win). So those don’t support your opinion.

So no – I’m camping behind my experience which shows leashing Serial Killers and directing their kills has never proven a benefit to Town. And despite your blustering you’ve yet to do anything to give me reason to think my experience is not the norm other than shout “NO U WRONG”.

But at least I understand the dogmatic argument, and it could come from town, that's why I would hesitate to vote pidgey. But, the factional argument? As a primary reason for wanting to lynch Tammy? There's no basis for it in the game that I can see. Players like AngryPidgeon are arguing a hypothetical that tips the fact that they know something about the setup that I don't. Which heavily implies scum.

The reason I'm voting you and why I think you might be scum is that fact that you're arguing this exact point. I find it hard to believe that as town you think that all scum are exactly as competent and arrogant as you are. [/quote]

No, that’s not that point at all and frankly it is stupid for you to suggest it is. Nothing at all in what you quoted says “ I think Tammy is a Mafia Team member”. Period. Yet you are trying to sell me that you are voting me because I believe she could be a Mafia member?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Easy scum play: Wagon and Lynch SK. No risk, no repercussions.

Clearly this isn't close to accurate

FROM YOUR OWN PERSPECTIVE

as

YOU YOURSELF

are saying "Whelp, all the scum quick piled on that wagon". Scum aren't in a habit of all lumping themselves easily into a readily reliable group that makes them easy pickings for Town to string lynch and the fact that your floating that as what happened is at best laughable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But this isn't laughable. Mafia love to jump on a cop's guilty bandwagon. It's the safest possible reason to wagon someone.

And you are saying Town, if they believe a Cop's claim, don't wagon along?

And that scum are collectively stupid enough to cluster their entire team on a wagon that has been a hotly contested issue on Day 2?

And that I, as scum in your eyes, came into the thread and despite the above fact jumped right on the wagon?

Just wanting clarity from you ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Honestly? I don't see a case. "It's in posts *numbers*." Yes, I see the case in posts *numbers*. I'm saying I don't see how the case is actually a case. All I see is scum OMGUS'ing and trying to discredit a player who has taken perfectly reasonable and logical stances.

@Everyone

– please review my case at I made on Mykonian at Post 2238 and decide which you believe – either

A. It’s a bunch of OMGUSing that makes no sense, or
B. Mastin doesn’t want to comment on the elements directly as they are solid since it links him to Mykonian, or
C. Something else.

And please let me know if it is something else.

But hey. MoI just gave me an idea. Never woulda thought of it if he hadn't taunted me.

I will enter into a 1V1 with MoI. If he flips town, then you can lynch me. I'm that certain he's scum.

Tomorrow if I am still alive I will definitely 1v1 with you. I’ll get you lynched and if you somehow don’t flip scum I’ll happily let Town lynch me.

I do appreciate the manner in which you wait until the last possible moment to take this empty stance ("Let's do it today") - it shows you don't want people to have time to carefully analyze the posts and the benefit of additional flips (Tammy's and whatever kills may happen at Night) which is a scum-perspective.

Okay, so it's not a traditional scumslip, and it's related to how MoI's weak at hiding scum motive. Motive is deeply tied to mindset, and this post demonstrates a scum mindset.

He's addressing me as if I am town, here. He's asking if anyone other than myself believes that I've narrowed down the scum to an at-worst 50/50 shot.
Myself believing I've narrowed down the scum to a 50/50 shot.
Myself. Believing. Found the scum.

This statement REQUIRES me to be town, because if I'm scum, I canNOT truly believe I've found scum.

Yet he "believes" that I'm scum. But he's addressing me as if I'm town.
Again, this shows a scum mindset, for the simple reasoning laid out--he knows that I'm town, but is trying to convince others that I'm scum.
It's a mindset-slip. (So MoI's play isn't quite airtight, but thanks to the nature of the slip, it's dang-close.) He's not playing as town. He's playing as scum.

And this is why Mastin is scum. He’s built this post to suggest that line in Post 2247 suggests I think he’s Town. It doesn’t. Specifically it indicates that his stance (All the Scum are on the Tammy Wagon) is ludicrous and that Town Mastin would know it was such. Therefore that line of thought is coming from Scum Mastin.

It illustrates that Mastin has staked a position that isn’t viable (and in my back and forth with KK I’ve explained exactly why) and clings to it despite the faction that someone who supposedly plays from a logical and rational point of view would not hold it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also food for thought –

Why was Mastin’s Post 2272 not his reaction when he made in his initial Post 2254? It’s an important question that illustrates Mastin’s scum motivation. His initial reaction is not “MoI is talking to me like I’m Town”. It’s “Lol I’mma Scum Hunting God”.

It illustrates that his “Oh MoI is talking to me as Town” is not a genuine reaction but one that he after the fact went back and said “Hmmm … what can I try to make look scummy”.

Compare that to my reaction in Post 2156 to Mykonian’s Post 2154. Mykonian makes a post. I read it and see “Look, he’s talking to me as if he believes I am Town yet has weakly called me scum” and respond in kind. Takes me all of 8 minutes.

Meanwhile Mastin sees a post by me and responds with “Teehee”. Then, over an hour later, suddenly that same post was talking to him as if he was Town.

Nope.jpg

[MagnaofIllusion]

A 1V1 later in the game is a tactic scum are willing to use. (I never have as scum, mind you, 'cause I know I'll lose 98% of the time. ) A 1v1 early in the game is something that locks the scum in, trapping them. They're left without an escape. MoI's plan is to 1V1 me on day three, and get me lynched, living 'til day four. That's a whole heck of a lot farther away than 1V1'ing me today, with him if victorious getting dayvigged D3 and him if he loses getting lynched D2. It gives him time to prepare a fakeclaim, it gives him time to instruct his buddies, it gives him time to prepare, it gives the scum more time to manipulate the town, it gives him more time to find a way out, or to minimize the damage.

Let’s examine all the ways it fails –

1. Suggesting that a 1v1 was my plan. Nope. That’s his plan. That he brought up within 24 hours of deadline. That’s clearly Pro-Scum timing (since it is very unlikely a shift like that happens and the most likely result is a No-Lynch).
2. Empty rhetoric – “He needs time to plan, time to prepare a fake-claim”.
3. His “scum needs time” he knows Scum DON’T have Daytalk (otherwise as scum I would have been planning, coordinating, etc the second I hit the thread). Nothing I can see indicates whether there is Daytalk or not in the rules. This is a prime example of Inside knowledge leaking out inadvertently – Town Mastin should have no clue whether Scum have Daytalk or not. But he is confident in his stance.

All of which are indications that this is a scum-driven stance.

Again, arbitrarily declaring certain number on, certain number off, is just that--an arbitrary, meaningless callout. It's the circumstances which show the truth. And just like in 1377,

the circumstances here show that all the scum are on, and none of them are off.

Saying otherwise isn't reasonable or even logical. It's quite the opposite: because it ignores the context, it's invalid.

Hey look, more scummy posting.

The bolded is clearly not evident at all and presenting it as a foregone conclusion shows that he’s scum clinging to a position rather than logically making conclusions.

He continues to assert a Mini Game is an Apples to Apples comparison to this game.

Finally he pretends I’ve made a statement about the number of scum on or off a wagon. I haven’t other than to say that I would risk my account to say that all the scum are not all on the wagon. Yet he’s trying to suggest I’m arbitrarily suggesting some distribution of where scum are. Actually – that’s him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also,

Claim: Meryl Silverburg, VT

.

Why am I doing this?
Because if I were scum, I would be locking myself into a claim early, trapping myself. There's no backing out of it.
I do so now, because again, leaders lead by example, and I want to FORCE MoI to do the same.

FORCE him to claim, not only his name, but his role. Lock him in. Give him no wiggle room. Force him to lock into a claim, with no chance to backtrack.

Claim: Grey Fox

I appreciate the effort by what is most likely a Goon to role-fish in hopes of determining whether to NK me tonight or not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for 2254, the answer to it is itself presented in the last line--I was busy. I had less than five minutes, so I didn't have much to say. Instead, I let out that line which I have been dying to say for a long time, even though I knew it was not a good answer and would risk blowing my credibility. (I even have a post in my QT about it. Says, essentially, "

Dang

, that felt good. Was incredibly stupid to do, but it felt good." )

It took me at a maximum 8 minutes to make my response to Mykonian. Are you saying that you didn't in your limited time make a post that said "MoI is addressing me as Town in post blah blah while supposedly calling me scum, more later when I have time" but chose to instead to fluff in a manner you now say was against your own best interests?

No, I don't think so. While you may be egotistical you aren't stupid. So no, I don't buy that answer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note no claim of role, though.

Of course. It would be stupid for me to out what role I have and make you and your partner's decision on the risks and rewards of Nightkilling me easier.

Clearly if you were Town you would understand that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And again, this shows MoI's scum motive.
If he were town, he'd know that whatever his role were,

the scum couldn't kill him without sacrificing me

. That's a trade worth taking.
As scum, he knows that locking himself into a specific role will leave him vulnerable down the line.


Also, this is once more addressing me as if I'm town.

Ahahahahahaah. This gets funnier and funnier. Yup - it's not Rolefishing in hopes of getting a claim when none is close to being necessary on Mastin's part. Not in the least.

And Post 2283 actually addresses you directly as if you are scum not Town. How do you get me addressing you as Town in when I'm saying "Scum who is manufacturing content they think can present as scummy would take the approach Mastin did. Town would not specifically make a post that they said they knew would hurt their credibility when they could just as easily written a short post saying "MoI is scum for this, more explanation later"? I'd really like to see how you bend over backwards to try and suggest that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well as much fun as batting Mastin around the neck and head with Town logic and making him dizzy I probably should give others a chance to post.

@Ben - could you please rally those not scum (Mastin and Myk) to actually get this Tammy lynch done? I've been occupied with Mastscum baiting me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - am LA for weekend family duties until Monday per the norm.

--

VOTE: Mykonian

I think Kise's input is pretty solid and augments everything I said yesterday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: AngryPidgeon

Since I like asking people for links I’m going to ask you for your AngryP case …

Can you link me to it?

Also since you were so certain before Tammy’s flip that she had to be a Serial Killer care to explain why I shouldn’t be considering that a sign that you know this is Singleball due to role PM reasons?

--

@Nero

– since you neighborized the Serial Killer N1 is it fair to say her QT contributions made you think she was Town since you weren’t voting for her despite the Guilty from Ben?

--

I don't really know where to go from here. Yesterday and last night panned out as my worst case scenario.

Lynching a Serial Killer was part of your worst case scenario?

--

He was just very happy about having called AV scum so early. That's why I didn't push it when nobody picked up that thread.

So you thought it was a good point about Nero being possible scum but since no-one else ran with it you just dropped it?

I don't know if most/all, but there's very strong scum motivation for wanting Tammy dead.

So there is no strong Town motivation to want scum dead?

Mykonian hangs as scum today and Zab needs to follow shortly for Post 2338. Painful how scummy that post is.

--

I still would be up for a snifit or Ascomist lynch, but i'm interesting in seeing the MoI vs mastin fight.

Will also support a wagon on this FTR.

--

Fffffffffffff bengame died.

Hey pidgey you have any scum games you can link me to? Thanks!

--

Not true. He was saying the same thing I was. (If tammy, is town she would have shot Benmage -> she is scum). Hes still scum, but just saying.

Why aren’t you voting Scumykonian then?

--

Note that MoI has completely forgotten overnight that he locked into a 1V1 with me.

Lulz. The only person who cares about said 1v1 is you. If you like we can lynch you today and then I'll get back to lynching Mykonian tomorrow. Because that's what happens when people call for 1v1s with nothing other than their ego as backing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ooooh this question is way too tasty to ignore.

Yes you are.

Number of votes Elo has cast for Acos (who he directly calls scum) today (including this post) – 0
Number of votes Elo has cast for anyone today – 0

Yet another reason why he’s a great lynch after mykonian.

--

nah, MoI isn't supposed to suck. It's mostly a continuation from yesterday. IIRC we voted each other then as well.

Myk when did you take up comedy? Because crap posts like this are HILARIOUS.

--

@Acosmist

–

acosmist, would you mind doing some scumhunting? You are rather busy with not being lynched. If you want to be a thorn, you have to make people nervous.

Please stop feeding mastin and vote this. He could not be more scummy.

--

For anyone wanting to understand why leashing the Serial Killer is inordinately stupid Mastin quite succinctly makes the case why not in one line (it wasn’t his intention … but … )–

There were something like ten names being floated around as vig targets.

That’s it in a nutshell. 10 names all being floated around. Hardly a scenario where scum can’t make sure their input hits one of the Town (and there has to be Town in 10 names) on that list instead of scum. It boils down why leashing is moronic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did I say a mislynch?
Make that two mislynches, and four days, and day six.
"Oh, myk was town? Well, he sucks. Elo's still scum, though, with Mastin who defends Elo."
"Oh, Elo was town? Well, Elo sucks. Mastin's still scum, though, so let's lynch him today."
"Mastin was town? Oh, well, nevermind on that whole 1V1 thing. Mastin was just an idiot who didn't know what he was doing; ignore him, please."

Did someone call the WHAMMMMMBULENCE? I think the appropriate response is as follows …



--

@MoI: Why are you voting? Im weighing my options. The Zab ISO looked really scummy and his "Acosmist is still a good PL" reply Today was just icing on that cog-dis cake. Mykonian is my other choice. Elscouta/KK are light alternatives right now.

Well the first reason is so obvious I don’t know why you are asking … but anyway –

Because I have scum candidate I want lynched and voting for them is the number 1 way to accomplish that. Not a real difficult reason.

Up until I quote Zab in asking him questions today have I paid 1 bit of attention to Zab to be honest. He basically lurked through the stupidity that was “OH MY GOD WE CAN’T LYNCH A NON-TOWN PLAYER” yesterday. I’ll read him in ISO at some point.

My question I guess morphs into the following – if Zab is a slam-dunk scum lynch why aren’t you voting him?

--

MoI:

Why are you whiteknighting me?

Why are you letting zabriel slip down the memory hole?

I’m not whiteknighting you. At least by any definition of white-knighting that renders it a meaningful statement. If you mean me getting a Town read from your ISO and claim … then I guess in that context I am.

You have an issue with me reading you as Town?

Not sure what you mean about Zab in that he hasn’t made a blip on my radar at all until today. Sorry, I still haven’t read the 80 some pages in detail since I replaced in. I probably will at some point. Maybe.

--

But in the interests of avoiding a semantic argument yes, lynching a 3rd party killing role was part of my worst case scenario. There are lots of reasons for it. Read day 2 for all of those reasons.

Then frankly your worst case scenario is stupid IMO. But enough said on that front.

You could always just, you know, conventionally scum-hunt. Like for example – do you think every single person on the Day 1 mislynch was Town? Why not look at the reasons and potential motivations for those who helped the mislynch along and see what pops up there if you are ‘stumped’ as to how to scum-hunt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The absolute only way to test Aco is to lynch him

, and if there's going to be growing suspicion, I'd just as soon get it out of the way and not risk getting caught in an awkward situation later in the game.

So Zab - I need to know what your thinking in regards to the bolded is ....

I can't tell whether it is Stupid Town or Stupid Scum. It's stupid regardless because Nero Cain is a proven Neighborizor. Aka someone who targets people at Night and establishes a QT with them. So as long as Nero has a living body (or two) to speak with at Night he can definately test Acosmist by targetting him and explicitly telling his QT members he is doing so.

If he lives (and thus Neighborizores Acosmist) Acosmist is clearly lying.
If he dies then whoever is alive afterwards can convey this to the thread.

The only flaw to the plan, of course, is if he Neighborizes scum who choose not to expose the information. But based on Benmage's kill flavor I'm guessing each death source has its own unique flavor that isn't duplicated.

Not to mention we have an unclaimed Messager who could also test out this theory (telling the person they message Night 3 that they intend to test Acosmist Night 4). And any other roles that might be able to test this.

So - are you stupid Town or stupid Scum who are not thinking things through?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, MoI, did you ever SAY you had a town read from my posts? From my claim?

You probably aren't reading my posts even though they are chock full of goodness so here is a direct quote for you ... -

On Acosmist – I scanned his ISO. He claimed PGO post 1 which is proper play. The name-claim is Null (Solid Snake is not guaranteed to not be a fake-claim). He will not make it to far in the game if he is faking scum as the claim will eventually be tested by some role.

The rest of his ISO would have me say “Town” if you put a gun to my head based my Town and Scum Acosmist experience.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mastin makes a point in last post. MoI, you claimed you'd 1v1 mastin tomorrow, but you are ignoring him now. Why?

Because I don't really care about a mastin and his 1v1. I basically humored him enough to get the Tammy lynch actually accomplished yesterday. I've already linked to another game where Klick wanted to go 1v1 with me.

Why is a 1v1 a good point Elo? What is the Town benefit if that is the only point mastin makes that you find 'compelling'. Because he has no role-based reason for his claim (since he claimed VT) and his case on me can easily be summarized as

"MoI is scum because I say so. He doesn't slip and I can't show any actual scum intent that makes a bit of sense but just trust me. I'm on a roll and always hit scum".

My response is - He's wrong. And I'm a better scum-hunter than him anyway so if he is Town he should just sheep me.

What is your read on mykonian and the fact that his reasoning for not supporting the Tammy lynch (up until deadline) did not match the actual facts of the game-state?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad. Of course it's dumb. But claiming you'll go in a 1v1 then retracting your statement is the whole different thing.

Do not sidetrack me with mykonian.

No, this isn't an answer. I want one.

Why is the 1v1 a good thing? Please elaborate on your position and reasoning.

Why don't you want to make a commitment to mykonian read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

His position is faked--if it were legitimate, he'd know the reason why entering a 1V1 with a scumread as town is nothing but good.
Why?

Do I need to repeat that statement for you?

Entering a 1V1 with a scumread as town is nothing but good.

If he thought I was scum, he'd be jumping at the chance to lynch me.

Nope! Let's go mislynch myk first! Then let's go mislynch El! Then let's maybe-mislynch Zab! Or if not, then entertain the thought of 1V1 on a day far closer to lylo!

Yeah.

Yeah, enough of this crap.

The bolded is a flat out lie and pretending otherwise is either the height of stupidity (which with you frankly could be the case) or coming from scum.

And for those playing at home - why is the bolded false? Because Town can be wrong.

I have a scum-read on mastin for his over-the-top chainsaw defense of mykonian (my top scum read) and his rhetoric filled and empty 'push' on me as scum that amounts to "Take my word for it".

I understand, however, that I can be wrong and mastin could just be being terrible (which, again, isn't a stretch). And if I am wrong locking in a 1v1 makes sure that Town doesn't lynch scum for two days if people buy into the 1v1.

1v1s are only helpful to Town when there is some reason to have them (like, for example, a guilty read). Otherwise you get derp like Klick who self-voted as Town because he was SO SURE of his read on me. I, of course, was a Town Powerrole.. Luckily Town wasn't stupid enough to bite on Klick's stupid declaration.

So the above is just empty rhetoric.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Come on. I make a point about doing short post, you can try to read them.

I have no clue about the mykonian case and i don't have the time nor the will to read enough to get a good opinion on it.

Now answer my question.

What question do you THINK I haven't answered? And why, if you don't have time to actually scum-hunt via reviewing the multiple mykonian cases, do you still have time to cherry-pick single points and continue to post about them?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why did you claim you'd go in 1v1 THEN retract your statement.

Learn to read for comprehension then because this was

ALREADY

answered. Here – I’ll be nice and quote it for you

Because I don't really care about a mastin and his 1v1. I basically humored him enough to get the Tammy lynch actually accomplished yesterday. I've already linked to another game where Klick wanted to go 1v1 with me.

.

So now that you have that (again) let’s get to answering some of these –

How does this conversation help you find scum?
What is your read on Mykonian?
Is this whole exchange just some cobbled together buzzword fest (I notice dodging thrown in when I clearly already had answered your question) that you are going to use as an excuse to vote me since you need some ‘justification’ otherwise it will look very scummy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Eloscuta – Still waiting for your answers to those questions. Why are you dodging?

(yes, this is ironically using your own tactic against you …)

--

So let me get this straight - you were against letting Tammy [who you were convinced was an anti-Town role] testing Acosmist's claim BUT you have no problems allowing two confirmed TOWN roles testing the claim?? Would you please explain to me how ZAB is the one being dumb in his game plan?

I’m putting this up front since it needs direct attention.

1. Please link to where I said I objected to Tammy testing Acosmist. I’ll be waiting since I never did. Now perhaps you are meaning that I was against Tammy living another day to do so. That I was. Tammy had already been outed as a Serial Killer. She had proven she wasn’t going to test Acosmist’s claim when she shot ThAd. So this point of your argument is moot and rather stupid. Letting Tammy live another day to ‘force’ her to test Acosmist was just going to result in her shooting someone other than him and then being lynched for not following orders.
2. So how exactly are Nero and the Messenger confirmed Town roles again? I don’t recall seeing anything from Benmage saying he scanned Nero. You do understand that neither of those roles is close to being alignment confirming at all, right?
3. I at this stage would have no problem with EITHER of those roles testing Acosmist. Neither one is powerful at all in regards to finding scum on their own. Thus if you are someone who is in the “I think Acosmist is fake-claiming scum” I would think you would have little problem with having someone who inherently can’t find scum with their role directly (and who can be scum, natch) confirming Acosmist is a PGO.

--

MoI's showing a survivalistic attitude--again, very uncharacteristic of town.

Look, more completely fabricated bullshit …

--

Mykonian coming across as town, but haven't read his predessor recently.

Did you read Post 2238 Peregrine? How exactly does that string of reasoning come across as Town? Please explain in detail how that looks Town to you.

--

MoI, that is true, we can use one of our talky PRs like Nero to target Aco, but we're gambling with a life to test that, and his death wouldn't even prove Aco's role since we'd have to have the mafia kill and the reactive kill. If Aco is fake-claiming mafia shoots our tester, he dies, and the lack of a mafia kill is explained away by a protection or mafia just deciding not to kill, and if Aco is town mafia leaves our tester alone and points out the lack of a second kill and we charge forward. Basically to test outside a lynch one of our guys has to target Aco at night without telling us and hope that mafia shoots somebody that isn't him so he can report or be dead with the mafia kill. And we're down another two townies if Aco is telling the truth. Possibly more if a couple people get the idea to sacrifice themselves at night. Assuming anybody does want to risk it.

Um given that both kills we have seen are flavored (Exploded for SK Tammy, eaten for whoever killed Benmage) why do you think that Acos’s claimed PGO response would not be flavored and thus able to be differentiated from other kills. Your “Well the Mafia could just shoot the tester” theory fails on that end and also fails given the Nero / the Messenger would not have to publicly announce his test (has a QT / can messeger a person with that intent the Day before).

Furthermore – why are you assuming (like Yates I note) that both the Neighborizor and Messenger are Town. Neither role is alignment indicative?

Lastly you never answered these …

So you thought it was a good point about Nero being possible scum but since no-one else ran with it you just dropped it?

So there is no strong Town motivation to want scum dead?

Also – what is your Mafia experience Zab?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

Enough with the bullshit.

What? Me calling you out on your failing to answer questions is bullshit?

Eloscuta has now quite nicely established that he wants no part in actually attempting to assess whether the cases on Mykonian have merit. Thanks for making that clear for everyone!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wasn't it already clear?

It was clear you have dodged actually commenting on his alignment directly that I can see. Last thing you mentioned mykonian in your posts was this -

I have no clue about the mykonian case and i don't have the time nor the will to read enough to get a good opinion on it.

What's clear is that you are saying here you haven't read anything on it and aren't willing to spend the time to make an assessment. Hardly a rock solid commitment to a read.

So, again - why aren't you willing to read the mykonian cases or actually commit to a read with reasons Elo?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because reading any of your posts is so annoying that the simple thought of digging through pages of them give me shudders.

I already have enough people to focus on.

No, i won't suddenly start analizing Yates, jason, mykonian, AP or whoever just because one of my scumreads ask me to do so (exception can be made if a good and clear point is being made, but that's something that you seem unable to do)

. If the mykonian wagon starts to really take steam i will look at it, but i would rather see votes pile on you for now (or mastin, or Asco)

In case it's not clear, I consider you either scum or bad town that enjoys drowning the thread with walls. Don't expect me to follow anything you say.

I'll translate this for you -

1. Reading is hard - aka 'I don't want to justify my stance on Mykonian so I'm going to pretend that reading post

IN A GAME PREDICATED ON THE WRITTEN WORD

is too difficult to me.
2. The bolded comes from a scum standpoint since I asked him about mykonian before he 'officially' moved me from Null to Scum. So the "my scum read is asking me to do it" didn't apply back when he first dodged. But now he's retroactively trying to justify that as the reason.

Nope.jpg. Not Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI why aren't you voting zabriel?

Because of the last vote-count mykonian had more votes than Zab and I'm more sure of mykonian as scum than anyone else. Do you think mykonian is scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes you do. I'm not.

The only reason you are even thinking about it is because MoI is having a crusade and I stood on Pidgeys toes.

That happens, I have big feet.

Ooops … another case of “Mykonian is treating his scum suspects as Town”.

Look carefully at the bolded. He’s saying that Acos (who he calls scum in that post) is only thinking about voting him because I am “crusading” against him (aka he is getting an unexpected avenue of possible attack from an unexpected source). Yet I’m scum (that where his vote currently is). So why is Scum-Acosmist only considering voting mykonian because Scum-MoI is on a crusade? It wouldn't be unexpected if we were scum together. That doesn’t make any sense if Mykonian actually believe that.

Yeah, mykonian is scum and needs more votes.

--

What's interesting is that you don't really address the Acosmist lynch directly AT ALL in your ISO

. I suppose you could be correct and that I am making an assumption that you were against the Tammy-Acosmist test due to your vote and, frankly, by avoiding the subject entirely. I do disagree on the rest of that defense, and would ask you how you know Tammy wouldn't have tested Acosmist's claim [despite saying she would] but it isn't worth arguing about since Tammy is dead and the point is moot.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Acosmist's play thus far?

So Yate, in regards to the bolded and the second quote – are you actually reading the thread? I ask because the bolded indicates you ISOed me and found no mention of Acosmist at all.

Yet ISO and Control-Fing for “Acos” yields my interactions with KK where I say my read on Acos is Town and this post where I basically do the same thing to Acosmist I am doing to you here.

So Yates – did you just lie about saying you ISOed me?

Are you taking the stance NEITHER of these roles are Town? I guess your response will inform my opinion on your point 3:

Nice dodge. You didn’t answer the question but attempted to turn it back on me. So I’ll bold it for you here

Yates – Why did you say both Nero and the Messenger are confirmed Town in Post 2453.

Now since I’m Town and am open to discussion – I never neither role is Town and you know that. I said that neither role is AUTOMATICALLY confirmed Town via role. Messengers and Neighborizors can be both scum and Town and I can find you examples of each. I do find it likely that one of them is scum and one is Town given the fact that an anonymous Messenger (and both Tammy and mastin have said the person is anonymous) and Neighborizor could create a rather potent synergy with a Cop if all are Town (Cop and Messenger are Neighborized – Cop gets results and Messenger relays those results via anonymous message to an outside party which also serves as a scum-hunting tool the first time by seeing the reaction of the play to the message).

So a Town Messenger flip would make me think Nero (dayplay aside) was very likely to be Scum and a Town Nero flip vice versa to our hidden messenger.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eloscuta gets his own posts because Post 2465 needs specific attention.

It isn’t often that something drops into your lap like mana from Heaven. But 2465 does that in a big way. Let’s look at this ‘translation’ that Eloscuta does in an attempt to say I’m scummy (and quite funny that directly swipes the formatting of this from me) –

rewritten for you: i don't want to vote for people that are attacking me and that look hard to lynch. I'd rather take the easy target for the lynch and simply call my attackers scum without doing anything against them.

This is literally a Christmas gift to Town. It can’t be put any other way. It’s a nice little box stuffed to the gills with scumminess. I’ll address each scummy point individually –

First we have the “He’s afraid to OMGUS” element (afraid to vote for those who attack him). Is that true? Not at all given Mykonian is voting me] and called me scum yesterday. So strike one here for actually being even close to factually accurate.

Second we have the inherent assumption that OMGUSing is scummy (otherwise why would scum be afraid to OMGUS per the first point above). Well then clearly Eloscuta is playing just like he thinks scum do since he only voted me well after I called his play scummy in multiple posts. So we have some Cognitive Dissonance going on there which is a sign of scum alignment.

Third we have the opinion that Mykonian is an ‘easy lynch’. How is someone who joined Mafiascum in 2008 and clearly isn’t a VI an easy lynch? That fails to make any logical sense. So this is just trying to smear my scum-hunting on mykonian in any way he can.

Third part two – who are the players I’m ‘afraid’ to vote who are suspecting me? Mastin – that can’t be true since mastin himself readily admits he knows he can’t win a 1 on 1 wall war with me. No-one else comes to mind. So this is just rhetoric meant to show I’m scummy that fails to stand up to scrutiny.

Fourth part - the inherent premise that I should be voting my attackers as opposed to pushing my top scum read doesn’t come from a Town perspective. Town are going to be suspected by both scum and Town. That’s how mislynches happen and they happen every game. Town’s job is to not get distracted in simply saying “Player X says I’m scum … they must be scum” and should continue to pursue their suspects while scum-hunting. Which is what I am doing – voting mykonian while pursuing other lines of inquiry to help get even more refined Town and scum reads. Yet that Town-motivated behavior is an indication I am scum in the above.

So all in all that little line is chock full of clearly incorrect assertions and attacks based on premises that aren’t scum-tells.

As for the rest of the post –

1- you definitely seem stronger at writing than reading at least.

Dodge, dodge and dodge and use insults to do it as well. Do you think calling me stupid is going to get you off the hook for your clear fabricated response (as I pointed out in Post 2462?

2- And? Doesn't it sound logical that while i'm analyzing someone i don't let myself sidetracked? Especially as the analysis lasted like 4 hours?

Where is this mystery analysis you claim lasted 4 hours? No indication in thread any such analysis that I can see. Please link to the post that shows this long analysis.

[MagnaofIllusion]

An in doing that response I have another thing I’d like everyone to take a look at –

In Post 2419 Eloscuta response to my question about mastin’s 1v1 with the following …

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad.

Of course it's dumb

. But claiming you'll go in a 1v1 then retracting your statement is the whole different thing.

I’ve bolded the important part … he says clearly it is dumb.

Yet if he thought that why did he say the following at Post 2344?

I still would be up for a snifit or Ascomist lynch, but i'm interesting in seeing the MoI vs mastin fight.

He made that post at the start of the Day. Why, if mastin’s 1v1 is stupid, does he want to see more of the fight? Keep in mind at Post 2404 he gives reads of “Mastin scum overdoing his Town meta, MoI null”? So what advantage does Eloscuta have as Town to want to see the fight continue? Clearing one of us? That clearly hasn’t happened since we are both now scum reads of his.

Also - keep in mind he continues to refuse to give a read on mykonian.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No you are misinterpreting. I didn't say you were ignoring Acosmist, I said you ignored the discussion about the Acosmist lynch. Specifically, you never said anything about this post or this post or this post or really anything concerning the Acosmist train that went into motion on page 71.

So I haven’t commented on events that happened prior to Page 79 where I replaced in. Maybe that’s because I haven’t read anything except excerpts from ISO Post 1841 prior to Page 74 as I previously said. You find that odd? Why? No-one has said “Hey MoI what do you think of the Acosmist wagon that started on page 71?”

You want my comments on those posts of yours?

We know we have to deal with the PGO eventually. Our claimed PGO has not been a strong Town player. We don't want a no lynch. I think the claimed PGO lynch is the better play.

This is scummy given there was a guilty on Tammy and you mention nothing about Acosmist being scummy but just ‘not strong’. We already are clear that we disagree on the Tammy lynch and I find this reasoning suspect. I'd like to know what your standard of "not strong" is since given the lack of scum lynches so far I don't know that you can call any Town player (other than Ben, who is dead) as being strong today.

That may or may not be true. My question is simply; wouldn't you rather HAVE that extra day kill?

Assuming a 3 person scum team w/ an SK, look at it like this:
D2 - we kill Tammy [she flips whatever]
N2 - Scum kill Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [lynch scum]
N3 - Scum kills Town
Best case: down 2 Town, 1 scum, 1 unknown

vs.
D2 - we kill Acosmist [he flips whatever - and we deal with the PGO claim]
N2 - Scum kill NC Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [Tammy kills scum]
D3 - Hooray! Another Town role saw who killed NC [lynch scum]
N3 - Profit?
Best case: down 1 Town, 2 scum, 1 unknown, and take care of the Tammy "problem" Day 4

What comment do you expect other than – this is a pointless comparison based on a large number of assumptions meant to show that your way is better when those assumptions don’t make much sense. For example – how is the “Tammy problem” taken care of in the second scenario given she isn’t lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No you are misinterpreting. I didn't say you were ignoring Acosmist, I said you ignored the discussion about the Acosmist lynch. Specifically, you never said anything about this post or this post or this post or really anything concerning the Acosmist train that went into motion on page 71.

So I haven’t commented on events that happened prior to Page 79 where I replaced in. Maybe that’s because I haven’t read anything except excerpts from ISO Post 1841 prior to Page 74 as I previously said. You find that odd? Why? No-one has said “Hey MoI what do you think of the Acosmist wagon that started on page 71?”

You want my comments on those posts of yours?

We know we have to deal with the PGO eventually. Our claimed PGO has not been a strong Town player. We don't want a no lynch. I think the claimed PGO lynch is the better play.

This is scummy given there was a guilty on Tammy and you mention nothing about Acosmist being scummy but just ‘not strong’. We already are clear that we disagree on the Tammy lynch and I find this reasoning suspect. I'd like to know what your standard of "not strong" is since given the lack of scum lynches so far I don't know that you can call any Town player (other than Ben, who is dead) as being strong today.

That may or may not be true. My question is simply; wouldn't you rather HAVE that extra day kill?

Assuming a 3 person scum team w/ an SK, look at it like this:
D2 - we kill Tammy [she flips whatever]
N2 - Scum kill Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [lynch scum]
N3 - Scum kills Town
Best case: down 2 Town, 1 scum, 1 unknown

vs.
D2 - we kill Acosmist [he flips whatever - and we deal with the PGO claim]
N2 - Scum kill NC Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [Tammy kills scum]
D3 - Hooray! Another Town role saw who killed NC [lynch scum]
N3 - Profit?
Best case: down 1 Town, 2 scum, 1 unknown, and take care of the Tammy "problem" Day 4

What comment do you expect other than – this is a pointless comparison based on a large number of assumptions meant to show that your way is better when those assumptions don’t make much sense. For example – how is the “Tammy problem” taken care of in the second scenario given she isn’t lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not caring to argue with MoI anymore - if any town want additionnal explanations, plz say so and i will provide them.

"Shit I'm busted ... going to take a page out of mykonian's book and stop being killed on facts and lurk it out"

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think it is safe to assume scum have fake claims if the 3rd party had a fake claim.

Yes, Acosmist is quite right that this is very, very forced. Yates played in a game under Pappums where he was given a fake-claim as scum. So pretending that this is some sort of revelation only upon Tammy's flip is suspect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Please. 1855 and 2248 were both posted after you came in - and those are just "for instance" posts. The Acosmist train was brought up in discussion and referenced after you came in as well. So don't give me that nonsense.

This is why people get annoyed with you, MoI. Misplaced snark is not fun.

Again - why do you specifically say things that aren't true? I replaced in (as in made my first post) at Post 1967. If you want to dispute that be my guest but it only proves you are either very stupid or scum. Which is it? Were you outright lying above?

Furthermore what is your point again? You've kept moving the goalposts in this conversation. I replaced in and directed my focus where it needed to go - resolution of the Tammy guilty (lynch, as it should have been) and finding scum going forward. Acosmist was NEVER a viable lynch from the moment I replaced and yet you act as if it was some major event. If he had been viable maybe he would of, you know, gotten some votes during the period I was here Day 2. Yet nope.jpg ... that didn't happen. And furthermore I've already demonstrated via linking to the KK-Me conversation that I did comment on the case on Acosmits made by KK and that it was crap. So I'm trying to work out exactly what huge conclusion you would be drawing from this conversation if Town. And I'm not seeing it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This one is easy to show. I get mislynched often and early.

So I looked at your last 5 completed Town games and looked at the game, when you were lynched (if lynched), and whether Eloscuta was in the game.

Micro 65 – No Town Lynched – You were Town, lynched Day 1, and no sign of Eloscuta in the game.

Micro 20 – Clueless Mafia – You were Town, lynched Day 2, no sign of Eloscuata. This Micro ended on Day 3.

Newbie 1282 – You were Town, lynched Day 4 to end the game, and no sign of Eloscuta.

Elemental Madness – You were Town, replaced in Day 2 and were lynched Day 2, no sign of Eloscuta.

Micro 1 – You were Town, endgamed on Day 4, no sign of Eloscuta.

So based on this I have the following questions for you.

1. Do you and Eloscuta have some relationship that obvious because he didn’t appear in any of the player-lists above? Is he an alt? I’m very curious as to why you answered the question for him before he could.
2. The results above are a mixed bag. Elemental Madness where you replaced in and were lynched the same Day. Micro 65 to some degree also supports it (except for the fact that being lynched as Town in that set-up doesn’t NECESSARILY remove you from the game so it isn’t a pure Apples to Apples to here). Meanwhile both Micro 1 and Newbie 1282 (and yes, I am factoring in that it is a Newbie to this discussion) suggest you professed meta isn’t accurate. Micro 20 is a push (you were lynched Day 2 when the game ended Day 3 … not exactly ‘early’ in context). Is there any other evidence that comes to mind that really makes your self-professed meta really viable?
3. What does the fact that according to Mod Vote-Counts you haven’t drawn more than 1 vote until Day 3 say in regards to your “I’m lynchbait when Town, I survive long term when scum”?

These questions, of course, all go to the heart of the mykonian - Eloscuta relationship that I see here.

--

Really? You think this has nothing to do with the fact that people were questioning name claims earlier [Solid Snake, for example]?

Who are these people and why didn’t said revelation cause you to question them about the fake-claim issue and investigate whether they should know that fake-claims are the norm in Theme games?

This goes back to what I had perceived as an inconsistency in theory. If you were against keeping Tammy [who you had marked as scum] alive to test the PGO claim only to risk a potential Town to test it later I had a case to make.

Obviously, the case is withdrawn since I was mistaken about the timing surrounding certain events.

Aside from the fact that you made your case based on incorrect facts you could have checked with a simple click of an ISO button ….

So you were all for letting a scum (and, no, scum includes both Serial Killers and Mafia … it means not-Town before you go off on another nitpick avenue as opposed to addressing the issue) with a proven kill live another day when there was ZERO percent chance that she would actually test Acosmist as claimed. Is that correct? Because the only way Tammy actually tests Acosmist is if she is Town and Benmage’s guilty rendered that an invalid possibility. Just because she said she would to get another day’s lease on life doesn’t mean it makes any sense she actually would. So yes – I didn’t want a Non-Town killer to live because they were Non-Town. But I do think having a possible scum player test the PGO claim on someone I think is Town (and therefore not lying) is a good course of action.

You going to assert that is scum-motivated?

I have already had to relink direct quotes to Tammy claiming she WOULD test the PGO and that she WOULD kill based on majority vote because people were arguing to the contrary even after she had posted she would. So I wanted to put the fake claim business to bed.

It was put to bed the second Tammy flipped. So you weren’t doing anything but stating the obvious there.

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.

Direct links to the posts you think proves 2451 ASAP.

--

So you are going to say that everyone off the Tammy wagon was scummy? I mean I agree that Elscouta/Mykonian/KK are, but I don't think being on either side of the Tammy fence is a good alignment indicator.

No. People can be wrong about game theory and still Town. I would argue that all scum were not either on or off the Tammy wagon. The fact remains that Yates’s stated reasoning for wanting to wagon Acosmist is scummy given the circumstances.

@MoI: Acosmist was the leading counterwagon when you replaced in.

I agree in that he had 3 votes. There was no chance that Acosmist was getting lynched yesterday given we had a guilty on Tammy and no compelling reason not to hang. I'm going to the heart of Yates's statements - that he keeps moving the goalposts and then withdraws his accusation when pressured.

[MagnaofIllusion]

*Okay, so he does paint a picture with myk to show scum intent, but only myk. He hasn't shown why I-as-scum would do anything I've done, nor any other suspect than myk. And as I said, though he paints the picture for myk-as-scum, and while I can see the possible picture, it's weaker than the town picture, the town reasons and the town motive.

Um, no. Now I know you dodged comment on my Post 2238 directly earlier behind your typical limp-wristed rhetoric earlier but now that you say this you’ve gotten to put up or shut up time.

I’ve laid out quite clearly why mykonian’s play surrounding Tammy does not come from a Town perspective because he lies about his motivations for unvoting.

He votes at 1259 based on the Guilty.
He unvotes at 1268, says that Tammy should prove her ability (which makes little sense as she wouldn’t fake-claim Dayvig with a real one around), and fishes for a full-claim from Ben.
He pushes that Town Tammy MUST shoot Ben – Kise has already addressed this but this is Win-Win for scum mykonian as a stance. He knows she isn’t his partner (and after the fact we know the guilty was valid) so no matter what Tammy does she’s screwed. Either she shoots Ben (and helps out scum) and is lynched because of it or she refuses to shoot Ben and gives himself a reason to re-vote regardless of who she shoots.
He revotes Tammy at 1405 with the following directly taken lines from his ISO …

The problem is still that she makes the last choice (as she did with thadmiral here), which wasn't the choice of a majority of town. I'm doubtful that she'll act like a second lynch.

If it's indeed day-sk/one scumteam, we should lynch her today, or in two days, to end up at a uneven number. After that, the fact that the SK is gone simply means more mislynches for us as there are less townies getting shot.

So he acknowledges she can’t bet Town and will NOT act as a second lynch. Next look at the bolded – he states the exact same theory I had to push for Tammy’s lynch (elongating the game by removing the second kill to give more time for effective scum-hunting) and specifically says she should either by lynched today or in two days

TO PRESERVE THE END OF DAY LIVING TOTAL AT AN UNEVEN NUMBER

. That’s important so I bolded it because later on he directly contradicts himself on this very point.

And here’s where he does it (post-2080) where he unvotes her via Pidgey vote and agrees with Tammy that she should live til tomorrow due to the Evens / Odds situation

WHEN THE DAY 2 LYNCH PUT US ON ODDS

, which was the lynchpin of his reasoning why she should be lynched either Day 2 or Day 4 in 1405. This shows scum motivation as it illustrates he actually doesn’t believe what he is saying in thread and just moving his vote as best predicated to make himself look better. In this case there was a clear (and dumb, but clear) movement in thread where people were saying “Only scum wants to lynch Tammy”. Thus he moves himself off the wagon so that his play “supports” a Town motivation.

There … all laid out nice for you again. Please indicate where I’m incorrect if you aren’t going to dodge it again.

Saying this more times won't make it any more true than it was the first time. She was willing, but most of the people telling her to shoot Aco suggested it after she had already shot ThAd, and she only shot ThAd because she was pressured into proving her claim then and there. Had she not been pressured to make a kill immediately, had people been allowed to get a consensus on her shooting Aco, she would have.

Nope. She wouldn’t have and you suggesting otherwise is sad.

Tammy was a Serial Killer. We know that for a fact. As such she could not know whether Acosmist was fake-claiming or not. Also a fact.

Shooting him risked her dying as a response. That is playing against her Wincon. Period. Because if she shoots elsewhere (as she did with ThAd) there is a chance she hits scum again and maybe she escapes the noose. And with the number of stupid / scum arguing for her leashing and the clear inability to get a ‘consensus’ as to who to shoot she had plausible denyability to say “Hey, player X is a strong Town read and they said shoot Player Y”.

Luckily I was here to make sure that level of stupidity didn’t continue.

Quite the opposite to me. I don't see any contradiction at all.

Of course you don’t. Just like you say everything I say means the opposite. It’s part in parcel of why your case is a joke … ever response you make is predicated on the incorrect “MoI is scum” stance and you are simply attempting to shore up your tattered position by looking “Confident”. So either stupid Town or foolish scum you’ve latched yourself on to the position and are willing to look stupid to be consistent.

MoI, if you wanted to prove that the roles weren't town, this was not the way to do it. Role synergy like this is exactly the kind of thing a mod would have in a game. Town roles are meant to augment and compliment each other in a well-designed setup, with scum roles designed to disrupt and break them apart. Synergy-->town. So you just helped prove that Nero and the messenger are town.

So that is the kind of synergy you put in your Mini Normal right ... a Miller / Roleblocker/ Doctor. Oh that's right ... no synergy there at all. In fact just ways for all three roles to be disbelieved.

Allowing Town to anonymously out Sane Cop results in a manner that means scum have to keep shooting blindly (via Nightkill and Roleblocker) make little sense balance-wise with what we know exists in the set-up. I'll chalk this up to you either living in the 'hypothetical world that plays well in MS but actually doesn't apply to actual games' if you are Town or 'more making crap up to support your position' if scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zab

– Ok, continuing to ignore questions puts you on the “Assumed scum since he will not explain why he is posting scummily” list. Hope you enjoy it!

--

If people care about my meta, all my games are on my wiki page. I'm not an alt and I have no alt.

"Hey look! I’m following along closely enough to pop in to say “My meta is free to review” when MoI posts a question to mykonian about his meta with me but I’m not going to actually say why I called mykonian an easy lynch.

Nope. I’m just going to continue to active lurk like good scum!"

--

Was it?

Yup.

Already done in post 2400.

Well no. Not a single thing in that post shows Acosmist back-tracking that he could not PGO a Daykiller. None of what you quoted (Post 10, Post 1542, or Post 2375 say anything of the sort in what you quote. I looked at the original posts you linked to and nothing there either.

So … is this another one of those cases where you are going to go “Oops, wrong facts” and backpedal?

--

1. I don't know him. Pretty sure I have never played with him.
2. it is when you compare it to the scumgames. Further, I'm sure there are more games. It's something that has been with me from 2008 Micro 65 is the most extreme example obviously, but it's a clear case. I step out to make a case, to get things moving, and it makes me a target. If people want a quick read to confirm it, that would work.
3. That yesterday was dominated by another discussion. Without that, the wagon would have seen 3 or 4 votes (depending on kise).

1. So from you standpoint he had no reason to say that and you popping in to make sure you got your two cents in before he explained is just coincidence, huh?
2. Oh really? (insert Owl pic here) …

Mini Normal 1376 shows you getting lynched Day 3. Game ended Day 5 with the lynch of your last partner.

Micro 8 shows you endgaming Town on Day 2.

Team Mafia shows you losing on Day 5 with your lynch.

Not sure how these results show a marked difference between your Town meta. You were lynched in 2/3rds of these games and only endgamed in a Micro. So I think you getting suspicion isn’t a function of your alignment.

I fully acknowledge that this is a small sample size. I’m not making a full statistical analysis of all your games here. I’m just highlighting that your professed self-meta is meh and you should be lynched because you are scummy.

3. Lulz. Nope.jpg. If you were really the Townie making the plays and getting reactions you would drawn heat before I replaced in regardless of the topic at hand in my opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Saying Tammy wouldn't shoot Aco is pretty blatantly false, since she was willing to cooperate with us and had been doing so.

No, saying Tammy would actually shoot Acosmist is stupid since Tammy’s not a moron and getting herself shot in response to blowing him up is instan-loss. Which is playing against her wincon. She would have took her chances dodging the noose. End of story.

Spoiler: Set-up stuff

The whole idea of that game, though, was to break expectations. I specifically made that setup to mess with the typical expectations of Miller/Cop/Roleblocker/Doctor, in that typically, you expect either the roleblocker or the miller to be the scum there. (Though at the time the setup was made, far fewer miller-claims were doubted than in current site meta, since scum fakeclaiming miller was less common at the time.)

However, even with that in mind, the setup still synched well--the roleblocker and doctor working together could have (and almost did!) trapped the scum. By shutting down their ability to get a kill through, it'd give the town more days to get a lynch, AND force the mafia cop to give more results. And if the miller were considered town (they weren't, thanks to a normally-quite-good player being apathetic), then that'd further hinder the scum's efforts.

What you claim is synergy there actually works against Town. As I disbelieved that the Roleblocker blocked the kill since my slot had protected a claimed Cop and no kill had appeared. You may, since it was your pet-setup, think it was well synergized when the fact remains it wasn’t. The Town Power-roles were set-up to block kills but not in a way that augmented each other. Had they done so I would have made the decision to gamble on the Roleblocker protect when it was a close call the other way for me not to. Your set-up synergy works from that lovely "Ivory Tower" armchair perspective which pretty much falls flat on its face in an actual how games work environment. But regardless of your alignment I would expect nothing less from you.

And from the perspective of a moderator, a messenger, a neighbor, and a cop working well makes a whole HECK of a lot more sense than a scum-messenger and/or scum-neighborizer working against a cop. Keep in mind also that a scum-messenger is a fairly useless role: why would they send a message to anyone? It does nothing role-related. It can't even be used to communicate with a scumbuddy, since it's sent at the end of the night, not during the day phase. It's an entirely useless scum role, but an INCREDIBLY strong town role.

And this is why I question if you are just playing stupid for pride’s sake or are scum. Because giving Town a way to anonymously out Cop results makes little sense in a game this size. You clearly don't understand the concept of actual game balance and how breaking strategies make it very difficult to do with estoric combinations like you are suggesting. And saying Scum Messenger / Scum Neighborizor makes a lot less sense is just pure garbage. Again – saying something without proof doesn’t make it true.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let me state a last time my position on you, MoI. You are on my soft-ignore list. This is the last time i adress directly a part of one of your post.

That's what scum like to do when the facts hit them on the chin like a well placed haymaker.

They throw up their hands, cry "It's all bullshit", take their ball, run home, and pray that people buy the AtE of 'frustration' as opposed to noticing they aren't capable of supporting their positions with Townie motivation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from today at 5pm EST til probably Monday for my normal weekend duties and, this week, Thanksgiving travel.

@Acosmist

– In light of Ben’s flip can you please specifically say what your Role Name is? Or point me to the post where you did so already. Thanks.

--

Oh.

So I'm currently one of the most looked-at people due to the last 5 pages, and you vote for me because i replaced someone that self-voted in his first post then waited two days before posting again,

That's convenient... Can i ask you to do a bit more homework and read at least from the beginning of day 3?

Ok AngryP you win

VOTE: Eloscuta

Mykonian is scum-lurking out pressure and this above is “You can’t suspect me from Page 1. That’s ancient history. My recent play changed my Wincon I swear!”

--

Thank you mafia for shooting derpy ass Ben!!!!

So you are glad the Town Cop is dead huh …

its instant.

So you are a Town Neighborizor who can’t ever be blocked?

--

Okay, my bad. Oh wait:

Stupidity is not a valid excuse for why it wasn’t settled with Tammy’s flip.

Did he say he was a PGO or that he was NOT a PGO explicitly? You tell me.

Well Kise has already gotten to this but so I’m not going to bother re-quoting what he said but hopeful YOU will start reading for context …

I pointed out that the PGO only defends against NIGHT actions.

So how, exactly, do you know this to be true? Are you the Mod?

Because Bulletproof players generally are NOT protected against Daykills. Yet in Pappum’s game where you were Vegeta you were. So you stating that you know exactly how roles work in a THEME game where variation is easily possible is tanamount to stupidity.

Let me ask you this - Neighborizors are not generally "instant" actions. So is Nero Cain lying about his ability?

You are wrong. First - Acosmist likely isn't PGO. Second - even if he were PGO I don't think his powers would have affected a day action. Third - proof that he likely isn't a PGO is right in his role claim when he hedges by saying:

Are you this stupid. Tammy was A SERIAL KILLER. As such her wincon requires her to survive as long as possible. You know what players with Wincons like that do? They don’t take stupid chances. And your reasoning above, as show, is stupid. Tammy wasn’t going anywhere near Acosmist because it could mean instant loss if he is a PGO. Your conclusions mean little since it was Tammy making the decisions.

As to your reasons -

1. This is just you saying “I don’t think so, hurr durr”
2. Same as 1.
3. Same as 2

[MagnaofIllusion]

Isn't that what I did as town when you last tunneled me in the Team Mafia game? I distinctly remember asking my team what to do as town in the situation and was advised to just ignore you.

So that was the game where you defended scum Day 1 trying to make sure they weren't lynched, right? Well ... it's kind of hard to fault me for wanting to lynch you when you did that there. You, of course, also know that ignoring is something Scum do also.

Please keep defending away though. I like lines drawn like that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And look carefully at Post 2560.

It is the opitome of active lurking. Lots of words with ZERO content relevent to finding scum.

He throws down two paragraphs saying "Why are people discussing Acosmist ... blah blah blah ... make your decision Day 4 (which is tomorrow, nice timing for his 'decision' on whether Acosmist is scum or not)" while not actually commenting one iota on whether he thinks Acosmist is Town or Scum. Lots of words that mean NOTHING.

And the tack on sentence about Yates being Town is totally predicated on me being scum. Which is a great position for him as scum to take since he can immediately back away from it once I get Nightkill and flip Town. Notice he doesn't actually say Yates's play is Town directly. Nope ... he wraps it in a soft, soft blanket of false-connections.

Why do you people not see how scumtastic he is? Dear god this playergroup ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wonder why you switched wagons MoI.

If you were Town and needed to scum-hunt you'd be reading posts and seen the explanation attached nicely to my vote for your partner.

But you aren't so you just fluff post like this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, this is a bit the point. I saw that reasoning and the weird thing is that you call us both scum. I'm the larger wagon at the moment.

See it is things like this that make he happy to shove in your scummy grill …

Vote Count from Post 2525

mykonian - 3 (Kise, MagnaofIllusion, AngryPidgeon)
MagnaofIllusion - 3 (mykonian, mastin2, Elscouta)
zabriel - 1 (jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 1 (PeregrineV)
Yates - 1 (Acosmist)
Acosmist - 1 (Yates)

Not voting - zabriel, WrathChild, pidgey, Cheery Dog, Nero Cain, Kublai Khan

The important take-away is as follows - myk has 3 votes, Elo 0.

AngryP votes Eloscuta – myk now has 2 votes, Elo 1.

CheeryDog votes Eloscuta – myk has 2 votes, Elo 2.

So clearly you were not the ‘large wagon’ – both wagons were the same size. And a pretty unispiring total of 2 votes. Day has been open 5 real life days and the most votes you’ve amassed is 3. I’d rather lynch you but it is 9 to lynch. I understand derping around idling your vote is not Pro-Town. So thus I moved to lynch another pretty obvious scum player, make it more viable at 3 votes, and hope that his flip helps sway people to hang you.

Now you get a viable wagon again? I’m on it like hotcakes!

Continue to scummily active lurk though. I appreciate that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm keeping you on the scum side of null, MagnaofIllusion.

When you're town, you tend to be really obvious. But in this game you've been just... sleazy.

I've turned on my webcam and taken a pic to show you my reaction ...



What do you think to accomplish with this KK (other than not providing actual game content in lieu of fluff)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MagnaofIllusion - 78

PeregrineV - 59

ThAdmiral - 49

zabriel - 49
Elscouta - 47 (plus 26 from Rapidcanyon) = 73
WrathChild 24 (plus 42 from BC) = 66
Cheery Dog 4 (plus 33 from snifit) = 37

So this is a current snapshot. I’ve bolded myself and ThAd’s post count for reference.

I replaced in late Day 2. If you are Town and have less post than me alone (and I’m not even giving myself credit for Zor’s posts like I am the rest of you replacements) you are doing it wrong.

WrathChild, and Peregrine – this is you.

If you have less posts than both myself and ThAd who died mid-Day 2 you are REALLY doing it wrong if you are Town.

Cheery Dog – this is you.

Elscouta and zabriel I have as scum reads currently so I’m not surprised at all about those results.

The Town players in the three of you needs to step up your games!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So it is about momentum. You could just have said that in stead of making a huge post out of it.

It must be tough remembering that you think I’m scum Mykonian. Because once again you address me as Town in the above.

You of course know why I made that big post. To show, once again, that you aren’t playing any attention to the thread because as scum you don’t need to actually scum-hunt now that Tammy is dead. Because you are scum and I want you hung.

Lol! So this is why we have to believe you are town. Because that post is hardly scumhunting. The people you call out, you don't even suspect. But you really wanted to tell us how active you are while you replaced in.

Again, your lack of Town perspective is showing through.

That post is a call to those three players in particular to actually play the game. Town who are apathetic, don’t post, and basically go through the motions letting others do all the scum-hunting and not providing their own insight help out scum. The most dangerous thing for scum to be facing? A Town where every Town member is engaged, actively looking for scum, and not willing to just let things slide by.

And that’s what I want – every Town player playing as strongly as they can to their Wincon.

--

^ facepalm

You totally are doing a great job not responding to your “scum” candidate there Elo.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What happened was actually the opposite. I found something interesting in mastin posts, and decided to question MoI on it. Then, he started questionning me about mykonian to distract me, and after a few pages of back-and-forth, I determined that he was worthy of today lynch.

This is a complete misrepresentation on how things actually happened …

My interest in Elo as possible scum goes back to Post 2238 where I point out he is sheeping a case he says he doesn’t actually agree with.

His response, as it were, to this is Post 2294 where he says the following

The defense of MagnaOfIllusion looked decent to me. If there is a scum among MoI or mastin, i'd rather think it is mastin. I really dislike this amount of "i'll show all i'm a townie ready to be a martyr". (And yes my vote is still on MoI, deal with it)

So he thinks Mastin is more likely to be scum than me. And still keeps his vote there.

Day 3 picks up and I’m the first to actually show any interest in the other again at Post 2369 where I indicate I’d be willing to vote Elo based on the strength of his “I want to lynch snifit or Acosmist, but I really want to see Mastin versus MoI continue”. As a reminder about this –

1. He already had declared he thought mastin was scum so why would he like that to continue if he was Town? No reason in that case. However if mastin is being derp-Town he as scum I’m sure would love for the back and forth to continue.
2. And let's talk about his 'snifit' suspicion. ISO him and do a snifit search. Here is his reasoing for suspecting snifit

snifit: Few posts, but with content, and content that looked quite opportunist (#817). I agree with Mastin #968. Strong scum read.

So snifit is scum for having few posts (yet he has less than me alone when combining his and Rapid's number as I showed before) and he agrees with Mastin. That's the kicker - his scum read is based on agreement with Mastin. Yet when he decides that mastin is scum over-doing his play he doesn't even blink about re-evaluating his snifit read. Nope ... it stay floating there along with mastin (although eventually pushed on the back-burner when I turn up the heat on him). Not a Town approach.

And at Post 2391 I again call him out for his failure to vote despite having scum suspects. His Post 2402 response was effectively “Ur, sorry I don’t vote as fast as you like”. And in that post he calls mastin scum and me Null.

Why is Eloscuta so worried about commiting to a Mykonian read? He easily drops reads on both mastin and myself when requested.

Elo finally gets around to ‘finding’ something that peeks his interest in me as scum at Post 2416.

So the concept that I only perked up and took interest in Elo after he questioned me is clearly a big old lie. It is as Kise suggested the other way around … Elo only finds me suspect after I have called him scummy. The whole 1v1 line of questioning (which, as a reminder, makes no sense if Elo is Town given his in thread stances take on both mastin and myself) is simply a device he used to bridge to voting me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nero

- how many people have you recruited to your QT?

[MagnaofIllusion]

ISOed Nero to get more details about his claim and came up with a couple of things that I thought needed reviewed / commented on –

This post from Nero Cain will probably be very helpful if he is scum. Specifically this section –

11. Zoroaster

13. Benmage

14. AngryPidgeon
3. zabriel
17. snifit

2. Melmond

I’ve already colored the flipped in already. I also included myself as Town because it’s my post and I know I’m Town. Problems with that? Take it up with the Complaints office in the basement.

Specifically - this post is probably relevant to Town’s interest –

This is his early game “I’d lynch list”. It contained one partner (ooba) who Nero put in his lynch list, distanced from (calling him scum), but never actually pushed or voted. So suspicion of Nero as scum also means that very likely at least one of Zab / Snifit (Cheery) / Angry is scum and looking at how he actually treats them (prior to this post) will be a good way to judge which.

If Tammy flips town dayvig then Ben is probably a mafia rolecop.

I never breadcrumb. I think they are dumb. Please kill someone today Tammy. (not Ben)

So you think if thought being a Town Dayvig meant Benmage was scum. Yet you were telling Tammy not to shoot Benmage. Why? Did you not think she was Town?


--

So yeah. I forgot about that. Would have been cool of Ben or Acosmist to bring that up at the time.

Yes it would have. Unfortuantely both were dead before said shot happened and my guts and experience says neither is the type to actually follow along in the Dead Thread so I can see both as missing it completely given it was never actually confirmed by the Mod in game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nero

- since you've been outed as the Neighborizor why don't you go ahead and claim your Character name while you are at it (answering my other questions)

[MagnaofIllusion]

PIDGEY, DEAR, WHERE ARE YOU?

Was I wrong about your vote on benmage? I see all kinds of patterns here.

"Pidgey - please forget about how I called you obvious scum and made all sorts of posts about you. I now want you on my side so I'm going to mea-culpa so my partner's lynch doesn't get more traction since in your last reads post you said one of me and Elo was likely scum."



Does anyone NOT see this?

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah, I don't.

And I'm calling him scum btw.

You called him scum yesterday for his Benmage vote.

So you are calling him scum by saying "Was I wrong about your Benmage vote"?

Nope.jpg

Thanks for keeping your 'low hanging fruit" scum-read on him!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey mykonian ....

What is your read on Eloscuta? Your ISO is pretty sparse on that.

GO!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm a sucker for people who buddy me

DODGE, DODGE, DODGE

goes the scum.

I notice how you don't actually answer the question.

Is Eloscuata Town or Scum? Next post GO!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I said town.

If you can't read, why are you writing so much? You are making this thread completely unreadable.

No, you didn't. And it is part and parcel of why your behavior is scumtastic.

You said this

I'm a sucker for people who buddy me

with a stupid smilie. You of course will argue "Well that is what I meant". But if you wanted to be honest about it you would have just said "He's Town".

Instead you carefully worded your response to avoid actually using the word Town. So that it didn't show up directly in your ISO as such and you could say "I was just joking ... buddying is can be a scum-tell see so I would never call someone buddying to me Town". It's scum who has to go out of the way to exercise Linguistic Gymnastics when a straight out answer would suffice.

And we know you understand that buddying can be a scum-tell. Your own words from your replace in post

Buddying? I guess. Don't think it's actually a tell, as a second thought. If he buddied it would be really concious and obvious there. Still, feels weird.

So there Nero wasn't buddying because it would have been obvious. But here Elo is buddying you and it makes him Town.

As the bad sports announcer says -

*** BOOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE *****

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I am off for Thanksgiving!

Eloscuta currently has 4 votes - AngryP, CheeryDog, MoI, Kise

We need 9 votes to lynch scum.

Acosmist, pidgey and Yates

- three more votes from you would really go a long way to solidifying this wagon.

Wrath / Peregrine / jason / KK

- Please review the Eloscuta information and really think about your read on Eloscuta.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey, dog. Don't worry too much about that activity post by MoI. He's trying to tell us he's very cool and active and we should think he's town.

Lulz

"Hey dog, you should like me and buddy with me because you are voting my partner. I don't want him lynched because then I'm totally fucked. I'm going to continue to do nothing but active lurk because, you know, I'm scum"

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've been in this game, what 30 hours now, and I'm meant to have already posted 30 times?

No, of course not. I just wanted to impress upon you that your predecessor sucked in regards to activity activity. I know you tend to be very active and wanted to encourage that going forward.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So we are back to lynching Mykonian scum first?

Ok.

VOTE: Mykonian

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the lack of wagon of any size on either Mykonian or Eloscuta is very, very disheartening. Aside from those two themselves or mastin (who as previously stated is either stupid Town or stupid scum) I don’t see any significant opposition to the cases put forward on them or even them being scum.

Why do we have the following votes languishing around on non-viable wagons or not even voting?

Acosmist - 2 (Yates, Kublai Khan)
zabriel - 1 (jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 1 (PeregrineV)
Yates - 1 (Acosmist)
mykonian - 1 (AngryPidgeon)

Not voting - WrathChild, pidgey

I’ve edited out my scum-reads (Elo / Zabriel) from these groups.

--

Zabriel is lurking scum.

--

You do know that the scum blocker is dead and there's not a guarantee of a town one right? But you are also experienced enough to know that outguessing the mod is stupid. So why are you doing it? All I know is that I sent in he action and the mod made us a qt within the next 20 mins.

I do know that fact. Do you know that regardless of that the Mod not waiting til the end of the Night to establish the QT communicates to you and the person you Neighborize that there are NO remaining blocking roles? Do you understand that this makes me suspect that your answer?

Here’s my question to clarify – does your Role PM specify your action is “instant”?

Uno

Why didn’t you recruit last Night then?

LYNCH ALL LIARS!!!

So you pointed out my mistake … yet here’s your original Scum list I linked to.

ooba
fox
WC
SK
Elmo
SD
Slandaar

You are absolutely correct. Ooba wasn’t your partner on this list.

SHADOW DANCER WAS

. And your behavior around him actually was actually just the same as I explained regarding your ooba read – you ‘suspect’ him, never pushed him in any significant way, and planted him there for future reads.

Lynch all scum who attempt to capitalize on an honest error?

You should read better as this has already been addressed. I was willing to buy Ben's guilty on Tammy. He was either a cop or a mafia rolecop. Its pretty simple logic.

No, it isn’t “just simple logic”. You strongly felt Benmage could be a Mafia Rolecop but didn’t push Tammy to shoot him? Because Serial Killer Tammy shooting Scum Benmage would have been a Win Win for Town had your ‘suspicions’ been right and you were Town. If you answer was "I wasn't sure" ... whelp ...

What MOI is accusing me of is that I’m lying about it being “instant” and therefore I did not talk to Tammy last night

Nope. That’s not even close to what my issue is. Thanks for just manufacturing bullshit though.

My issue is that it makes zero sense for a TOWN Neighborizor to have an instant action in a set-up with at least one blocking role.

Now if in the end this is bad Modding so be it. I choose to assume it is not for the moment.

@Nero

– What alignment do you think the Messenger is?

--

it has nothing to do with understanding that it's a scumtell. I know it's a scumtell because it works. And I'm far from an exception to that.

If you weren’t scum you would of course not be arguing that you understand buddying works and still be giving Elo a Town read because he’s buddying you.

But you aren’t … so …

Also – I do greatly appreciate your ”Lining up lynches on MoI under Burden of Proficiency grounds is stupid” post where you basically acknowledge you know I’m not scum. A++, everyone should read.

"I do it every game.". The only reason would tell us is because you are purposefully sticking to your meta. Guess who like to do that.

I AGREE 100%. People who say things like “I always am suspected as Town, it’s my meta” are scum.

Please self-vote in shame.

--

Null. Not that you care much about my answer given the rest of your post though.

This is a lovely non-answer when pressed on the issue. Els-scum later goes on to say that Mykonian has done nothing to make him feel he is Town or Scum.

NOTHING

? On Day 3? That’s laughable. If Els was Town he should at least be leaning strongly to Myknonian as Town just for their common reads (me as scum, for example). Up until those reads are proven wrong by flip it is natural for Town to see those with similar reads and say “This is coming from a Town mindset, he’s probably Town”.

But Els doesn’t do that. Because he is scum.

I was interested in seeing MoI vs Mastin because one of them (mastin at the time) was one of my scumread (based on style). I believed i could get interesting data from that, that could make mastin a better lynch than my suspects at that time. I must admit I didn't expect MoI style to be that ... absurdly verbose.

Now, aren't you concernced that MoI, despite writing walls over wall on me, never asked this question?

It seemed much more important (and easier to answer) than "go read my case on mykonian and tell me what you think about it".

This is from Post 2617. Let’s address the scummy elements of it.

The first is that his scum-read on mastin was ‘based on style” which is by far the worst excuse in history for having a read.

The second is that he tries to handwave that there would be “interesting data” from the 1v1. Yet he isn’t willing to actually articulate what meaningful data it would be.

The third is really the kicker. Read the bolded. He’s saying “Why didn’t MoI ask me about continuing the 1v1” as if to say I’m scum not actually scum-hunting.

I present to you EXHIBIT G in the ‘Els is scum’ case –

Why is a 1v1 a good point Elo?

Why is the 1v1 a good thing? Please elaborate on your position and reasoning.

So not only did I TWICE ask Els about it now he’s trying to re-write history to say I never did.

SCUM.

Not to mention that this directly conflicts with what Els said here –

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad.

Of course it's dumb.

So back at 2419 Els directly acknowledges that a 1v1 is as dumb thing. But now he’s trying to say he could get valuable data from it. This is classic "Scum giving the answer that makes them look best not the truth and getting caught contradicting themselves".

--

Also to MoI, my only scum games are Chrono trigger and Kingdom hearts.

Ok, thanks pidgey!

[MagnaofIllusion]

How often are you going to call yourself town?

So nothing to actually say on the fact that your post was indicative of scum who doesn't honestly suspect me but is faking their Scum-hunting? Or the rest of the very relevant parts of that post where I show your scum-posting?

Instead we get this which is funny since it's more One-Liner no content fluff from you and doesn't actually indicate anything in the least scummy.

Unless you want to try to suggest saying "I'm Town" is scummy. I'd appreciate that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Im not seeing how Mykonian admits you are town in the re-Acosmist post.

But he is still scum for turning down help from someone (Acosmist) interested in lynching one of his top scumreads (you) and instead chastises him.

Either Mykonian is really fail at town play or is just leaking obvscum everywhere. And he isn't town this game, which of course makes it the latter.

The inference he is admitting I am Town there comes from the bolded reason above - if he truly thought I was scum (aka being Town and having a scum-read on me) he wouldn't say "Bad Acosmist, lynching MoI when he pushes a mislynch for that is stupid" ... he'd say "Yeah, MoI is scum and him pushing mislynches is part and parcel of him not scum-hunting".

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm on the fence here, I doubt both AP and els are scum, but think one of the pair is. I am going to go with my gut on this.

vote: AngryP

Well hmmm ... is this bad jason Town or scummy jason Scum? Need to look at his ISO again.

@Jason -

why no mention or vote for mykonian one of your 'scum reads'?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Found I wasn't the easy target you hoped for Elscum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Elscouta - 4 more votes til a scum lynch and successful Day 3.

Post 2719 is just another clear example of why Mykonian isn’t Town actually scum-hunting but looking for posts he can attack as scummy. If he was actually reading for content and to assess alignment he would have seen that pidgey was clearly posting about Jason given the context.

--

Jason I think you really need to explain what I am seeing here in detail …

Post 2619 –

As for Eloscuta, I was pushing his predecessor earlier in the game, in RapidCrayon.

Post 2705 –

I'm on the fence here, I doubt both AP and els are scum, but think one of the pair is. I am going to go with my gut on this.

vote: AngryP

I see no evidence of the re-read you said you were going to do on Els from 2619. And you previously suspected Rapid. Yet you vote AngryP who to my eyes is a very, very recent suspicion of yours.

I’m having a very hard time computing this set of facts in a Town manner.

yawn.. come back when you have something that will stick.

So he’s suspecting you for bad reasons – he should suspect you for the correct reasons you are scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum had everything to gain by pushing so hard for Tammy to be lynched.

Yes certainly no Town player would ever want a Scum player like Tammy lynched.

I'm not sold. A lot of it seems propped up by badgering. The indecision between you & mastin2 being scum is understandable. Both of you are massive word regurgitators and therefore can both simultaneously make good and bad arguments.

If you are just going to hand-wave with vague generalities don’t expect me to give your input great attention. Because frankly I’m tired of people who can’t do anything than say “I’m not sold” in this game. If you want to quote from Post 2581 and show me specifically what particular facts or analysis I put forth there isn’t valid feel free.

@MagnaofIllusion - Can you expand a bit on why your ISO of Acosmist leads you to think he's town? Because he's been horrible and transparently scummy as fuck.

Why exactly should I bother again? You’ve already drawn your conclusion. I don’t really care if you don’t like my read or not at this juncture so it is simply a continuation of our earlier butting heads around the Tammy lynch.

Dragon Ball Z Mafia – Town Acosmist.

Dr. Who Mafia (my modded game) – Mafia Acosmist.

Read those ISOs and tell me that this game doesn’t resemble his Town game. Or don't since I doubt your reaction will resemble mine.

--

Tammy - 10 (snifit, Kise, Benmage, pidgey, WrathChild, MagnaofIllusion, Acosmist, AngryPidgeon, mykonian, Elscouta)
That's 'cause every single name on here was on the Tammy lynch!
It even has the same two people as the first two votes! (Cheery Dog is snifit.)

I couldn't get a better support for lynching Myknonian or Els than this. Both were on the lynch that mastin is calling ‘bad’. Yet he’s using the presence of other people on the wagon as support for their being a bad lynch. When the only flipped person on the wagon is Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What people should also be considering is that Mastin is focusing on the Day 2 lynch (on scum) and not the Day 1 mislynch. For everyone's edification

Votecount 1.22 (Final VC of Day 1)

Melmond

- 11 (

Tammy

, zabriel, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, BloodCovenant,

Benmage

, Yates, AngryPigeon, snifit, rapidcanyon, mykonian)
AngryPidgeon - 2 (Kise,

Zoroaster

)
Cybertronix - 2 (

ThAdmiral

,

Melmond

)
rapidcanyon - 1 (PeregrineV)
zabriel - 1 (Cybertronix)

Benmage

- 1 (Acosmist)
Kise - 1 (jasonT1981)

Not voting - Amrun

So no reason to look for scum on the Day 1 mislynch, huh? [/off sarcasm].

Zabriel, KK, Nero, Wrath's slot, Yates, AngryP, Cheery, Elscouta Mykonian are the unflipped on that wagon. Filter out my Town reads of Angry and Cheery and you get a nice pool that happens to contain my top three scum reads (Els, Myk, Zabrial) and some of those who I think are second string suspects.

Unsurprisingly Mastin's slot was being voted by 100% Town at the end of the Day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The problem with this whole aspect of your case is that it's heavily OMGUS-y and lacking on overall logic.

So as predicted your response gives absolutely no details and hand-waves in highly generic fasion. I’ll just mark this down as a dodge.

Such as: Why wouldn't scum-Elcousta just vote for SK-Tammy? Why prolong the day and risk self/scummates saying something stupid and drawing attention?

Well gee … perhaps because there were enough people crowing is stupid fashion (yeah, I worked that in since you requested it) that perhaps he thought it would give him Town-cred? Not to mention that if Tammy did escape the lynch her motivation the next Day would be more likely to shoot among those who strongly wanted her dead (you know, Town engaging the higher reasoning functions since she was scum). Not a difficult concept to grok.

This of course comes down to our theory disagreement on lynching Serial Killers scanned by uncounterclaimed Cops.

The push for the 1v1 on this day was an oddish move though. There's nothing to be gained by you and mastin2 going all balls to the walls against each other.

Well it’s good to know you don’t consider it possible at all that mastin and I can both be Town when assessing your reads. Because if we are then scum has everything to gain by encouraging the two biggest posters in thread to butt heads another Day and maybe get two successive mislynches out of it if they are lucky.

So why didn’t you consider that possibility in your analysis?

Only two games? That's a very small sample size!

^ See? Total MagnaofIllusion reaction.

(I'll read them over later)

Perhaps you shouldn’t lecture people on being a dick when you post things like this. Just food for thought.

Frankly … I don’t care whether you like my analysis or not. It’s my experiences. I trust them. I don’t trust you given your stances in this game and past encounters.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, and as an aside -

2 games is infinitely more support for my position than the 0 games of support you threw out for yours. Just an FYI on math for ya.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd lynch zabriel. Can we do that? He's even more likely scum than Elscouta. So is Yates. Why are we lynching third reads??!

Seriously, why is no viable wagon forming on anyone else?

Well no wagon has formed on lurker Zabriel as he is scum and other scum are making their presence actually felt in thread (mykonian and Esc).

I'm not sold on Yates as scum at this point. Yes, I get the DBZ "Yates making terrible arguments is scum Yates" read you have. I just am not on board with it at this juncture.

[MagnaofIllusion]

me

Hey look Nero has no time due to technical issues to makes posts yet is Johnny on the spot quick responding to Thor's "Who should I sheep" comment as if he's active lurking scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Didn't want to.

I'll be back later (running daughter to dance in 2 minutes) to more in depth describe why Nero's sudden explosion of posts is dripping with scummy goodness [preview - Trying to sell my suspicion of him as "I don't think he's a Neighborizor" when I clearly think he's a Scum Neighborizor, his flip flop on the Messenger (first he is only scum if the wrong person claims him, then suddenly he's confirmed Scum) among other elements) but the above is a direct Mafia claim.

10 Internet Pointz for the person who best describes exactly why it is a scum claim before I do. If no-one does then I keep those precious IP for myself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So this first post is dedicated to Nero.

First things first – I’m sad no-one wanted my Internetz points. So again, why is this reaction a Mafia claim?

Didn't want to.

Let’s set the stage – Nero is an ‘instant’ Neighorizor who can start a Night only conversation with anyone he chooses and wants us to believe he is Town. Benmage’s claimed Guilty has resulted in the lynch of Serial Killer Tammy.

Now Nero has already stated that he was ambivalent to Benmage’s claim. He believed Benmage was either a Town Cop or a Mafia Rolecop.

Now that I’ve laid out the stage what should Town Nero interested in furthering his Wincondition done?

The correct answer is – Neighborize Benmage.

If Benmage is scum he gets a full Night to assess his reaction (or lack thereof) to questions and information in the QT. He can try to get Benmage to commit to a Night 2 scan target to assess his alignment based on that. He would be using his role to actually hunt scum.

If Benmage is Town it is also a Win for Town. Town Nero can get a full Night’s worth of reads from Ben. Ben can also tell him who he is targeting so that if Benmage survives the Night and gets an Innocent then a second player can know the result and Benmage doesn’t have to directly divulged it (and make said player a target for Nightkills) until it benefits Town, such as catching scum pushing on said Town player.

Hell the best case scenario is the Mod also provides “instant” results to Benmage making sure a potential guilty doesn’t die with him. I doubt this is the case but Town Nero shouldn’t have ruled the possibility out.

But Nero doesn’t recruit because “he didn’t want to”.

Now after the fact he’s now claiming it is a limited use ability (X-shot) as retroactive justification. Nevermind the fact that his “I’m a Confirmed Neighborizor” stance he’s been throwing about means he should be using his ability every night until it is exhausted since he ‘expects’ to be killed.

Nero chose the route you would expect from a scum Neighborizor who expects Benmage to die … not using his ability on him so it isn’t ‘wasted’.

Next up let’s look at his contradicting himself on the Messenger and their alignment

–

Depends on who claims it.

His original response. Pretty clear what he is saying here … the Messenger isn’t someone who is automatically scum to him. Otherwise he would not have made his assessment dependant on the player.

oh so the messenger is scum and you and MOI want to throw doubt on my confirmed role so the messenger can squeak by.

Oh wait … so now the Messenger is scum since you are Town. Why didn’t you know that earlier?

You get bonus scum points for continuing to float the concept that confirmed Role means confimed alignment when your claimed Role doesn’t in any way track as such.

Once I flip town the messenger likely won't claim. But the only way I'll die is if I get shot (since it should be fairly obvious that I'm town) and you likely won't kill me Kise.

Should the messenger claim today?

Funny that only when brought into the spotlight does the line of thought come to you. Perhaps as if you understand if you are lynched before they have to claim they become hidden confirmed Town for whenever mass-claims happen?

Lol no. Kise was already suspect for active lurking but his cheerleading an obvious bullshit case is derpy/scummy as fuck.

Now he’s chain lynching or trying to buy the messenger some town cred by accusing me of being scum so it looks like he’s trying to buy some limited cred for his buddy.

Yeah, you pretty clearly got nailed flip-flopping. But what I want to address is the bolded. The only way that sort of play gets whoever the Messenger is Town cred is if you flip scum. You flipping Town would actually damn them.

And you can’t get out of your own way here - you are both accusing Kise of wanting to chain lynch (aka lynch two Towns in a row) based on the roles and of Kise trying to “buy his partner Town cred”. Two accusations that are mutually exclusive. Cognitive Dissonance much?

On to more general topics

-

So I shouldn't have given Ben the benefit of the doubt that he was town?

Certainly. Fact remains that your stance on Ben doesn’t make sense. No reason for a Mafia Role-cop to claim a Cop result Day 2 and risk being counterclaimed to get a Serial Killer lynched. He would have to explain why he lived long into the game even if he didn’t get counter-claimed immediately.

Now I could maybe buy you thinking he was an expendable scum Goon who was sent out on a Suicide mission when they shot Tammy and it failed (explaining the lack of Night 1 kill). But you didn’t go that route. You actively held you thought he could be a Mafia Rolecop.

This is so cute.

So you are floating that you just happened to check the thread within and make that post within two minutes of Thor posting the question as a coincidence, huh?

Thats it. *glares* I didn't want to claim since scum may not have been given safe claims but they prob were so...

Um lulz … that’s your excuse?

This post looks at you, sees your feeble excuse for not name-claiming that clearly has already been disproven, and laughs long and hard.

I'd also like to point out Nero has no response when he tried to call me out on mistaking his scum partners in Star Wars and got blasted in the face with the fact his partner was indeed on his Scum reads list (ShadowDancer) and his treatment of them is exactly as I described.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also - why it makes little sense for a Town Neighborizor to instantly get results in a game designed with a Mafia Roleblocker. Otherwise the role would be unblockable and Nero has explicitly said his Role PM does not specify his ability as such. Unless the Mod, of course, wants to clarify (which Town Nero would have been doing the second this problem was brought up as he did in American Revolution Mafia ... he clearly didn't because he really doesn't care since he's not Town).

Even with the Mafia Roleblocker dead instant resolution tells both Nero and his target that no other blocking roles exist which is a poor Modding decision regardless of Nero's alignment but that does not 'clear' him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’m unsure on Thor. Town Thor should be sheeping me like he did in Amrun’s Policital game.

Thor – why did you not sheep my awesomeness and instead voted me?

You can make up for it by ThorHamming Elscumo when he gets to L-1. Claim your righteous power and win my trust back!

--

I'm starting to get the impression that MagnaofIllusion could type up a case on why the mod is scum.

Well when it is a xReckx game I’m sure that would come in handy.

Why the need to mudsling and discredit by inference? Watch out – mastin and nero will call you scum for doing that.

--

zab is town once Nero flips scum.

I sense this is pre-my replace in. Please link me!

--

Pressure for what?

I don't intend to change my mind or something.

If you have questions or requests for info, please tell, but "pressure"? for what?

For rope of course. Cutting off your air supply and revealing a scum flip.

Two more votes should do it!

--

During deadlines, towns want a lynch, even if it goes against what they personally desire.

So when you said “I will not vote Tammy and would rather I get lynched than her” are you indicating you aren’t Town or are just absolutely terrible?

Except, Tammy wasn't scum. She was a town-mindset day-SK, which for all intensive purposes was acting like a dayvig. Claiming otherwise goes against all in-thread evidence, from her posts to her scumhunting style to her shots to her promises to her post-lynch posts, everything. She was shooting as if she were town.

Wow. I didn’t expect “She wasn’t scum” Newb response from you mastin. Scum is a term referring to all anti-Town wincondition roles. Like a Serial Killer.

You do understand that Serial Killers scum-hunt as part of their survival and thus pretending it was altrusistic is laughable, right?

LINK TO HER POST LYNCH POSTS THAT OOZED TOWN

! I want to see you justify that whopper.

Oh, I haven't forgotten. BC = WC, a consistent suspect of mine. Snifit = Cheery Dog, who while not a consistent suspect, has been in and out of the zone, and is currently on the wrong side of null.
There's a reason I've been pressuring them. And AP's also there. AP's currently on the town side of null, but he's dangerously close to being on the wrong side.

Nice Appeal to Fear .. too bad for you no-one has much to fear from your empty threats.

Go back to mudslinging rhetoric.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just a reminder for those not paying attention ....

The deadline for Day 3 is 9 PM EST on November 30, 2012.[/b][/color]

Deadline is in approximately 60 hours. Unless you want to be scrambling right at deadline it's probably best to consolidate wagons now.

I'm on Els but would support wagons on Mykonian, Zab or Nero also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@KK

– How’s that Acosmist reading coming? Oh, did you forget you said you would do that and instead just wanted to come and active lurk?

--

On another note, I am kinda puzzled that the wagon on me went off pretty quickly, while the one on mykonian didn't, and (as far as I understood) the most important point on the case against me is "refused to take a stance on scum-mykonian". I'd like people that are voting me and didn't want to vote mykonian to explain their thoughts.

I’d like to hear why you posted this given you’ve indicated not one iota of Mykonian suspicion before your wagon got momentum and were calling him an 'easy lynch' earlier today. Trying to distance? Far too late for that to be effective.

--

Because that almost seems too blatant to possibly come from scum to my mind.

@MoI - as someone okay with the Myrk lynch, does that synopsis hold water in your opinion?

Not really. First he’s short selling the cases and points made against him and given it is within 3 days of deadline his ‘astonishment’ about his wagon finally getting momentum is pretty dubious.

Dog, here are some links for you to look at with a quick summary of why Els is under suspicion.

Post 2369 – he’s interested in having mastin’s 1v1 explored more even though he knows it isn’t a good idea. His explanation was effectively “it would give me data” but he’s yet to give an details about what sort of data he thought he would get.

Post 2391 – Calling people scum and not voting while his vote was idle.

Post 2471 – This is a good read IMO. Here I dissect how his 2465 is not from a town perspective at all. Note in that post he floated the “Myknonain is an easy target” concept that he never provided any evidence as to why he thought it to be true. Compare that now with his “Hmmm, why did Mykonian’s wagon not take off like mine” recent post. You would think if Mykonian was the easy target Els tried to portray there he would not be saying “Why didn’t he get wagonned more?”. Indication he isn’t coming from a place of saying what he believes but making arguments to fit the circumstances … aka scum.

Post 2581 – Nice dissection of how Els’s attempt to float that my suspicion of him is OMGUS is clearly fabricated crap.

Post 2700 – A general show that his stance on mykonian (He’s done nothing to be Town or Scum) and his 1v1 stance are scummy.

I think that should be enough reading material for you on Els as scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Thor

- Actually here is another reading assignment. This one revolves around mykonian's play re: Tammy

Post 2238 - I think it will be enlightening.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That is why. Throwing doubt on the cop is a perfect way to ensure that the cop is not protected by protective PRs.

Dear god is this stupid. Your premise is that Benmage wouldn't be protected because I asked him to confirm he wasn't gambitting (and despite your "casting doubt" Appeal to Repetition that is exactly what I did). After we lynched a Serial Killer.

Do you seriously write these things and believe them?

The only way he wasn't going to get protected is if there was any doubt left about the veracity of his investigation. Players like Nero had floated the concept of him being a MafiaRoleCop. So the only way he wasn't going to be protected was not lynching Tammy (and confirming she was scum).

So his death actually means more likely scum has a Strongman ability of some sort, any Town protective roles were idle overnight, or said protective roles were morons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to respond to Mastin’s wave of post with one quote that shows he’s basically not honestly approaching the subject of “MoI is playing to his scum meta”. Whether that lack of honesty is from pride or being scum is up in the air for me.

Except, MoI's meta as town suggests he'd have taken the gamebreakingly powerful strategy. I've seen him as town, and he won't waste an opportunity for one.
He did this game.

This is a bold-faced lie. I can’t put it any more clearly than that. Mastin keeps repeating (again, Appeal to Repition) that leashing a SK is a Powerful, game-breaking strategy. It isn’t. He’s yet to provide

ANY

evidence that shows doing so has Pro-Town results despite me repeatedly asking for such evidence during Day 2. All I ever got in response is “Double Day is Pro-Town” which isn’t an answer and also isn’t anything other than an unproven assertion. Again – no-one is providing any evidence that Double Day is a powerful Town tool. Whenever I ask for evidence to support that the response is just “Err, because I say it is”. Once again I will respond as follows – more Scum teams have won Open Double-Day set-ups as reported on the Wiki (that I can find, anyway) than Town teams have. So unless someone has a resource that shows it is overwhelmingly Pro-Town that I am missing please link me to it.

MASTIN – time to put up or shut up on this lie – please link to ANY Town MoI game where I advocate leashing a SK (or suspected SK, or hell even directing a Vig) as a Pro-Town stance.

Because I know you can’t. Because I don’t believe in such. I can again provide

MULTIPLE

links showing my belief as Town that leashing a Killer is terrible Town play and should not be done.

So either do so or I’ll simply call you “Lying Stupid Town / Lying Scum” every time you bring up that argument.

--

VOTE: Mykonian

I do appreciate how many people today who supported Els as a lynch suddenly are calling me scummy today. My definition of appreciate is different than yours in this statement, for the record.

--

Vote: JasonT1981

It's not the hammer so much as 2881.

Remind me … did you vote for mykonian at the start of Day 2 based on his hammer Day 1? I’m too lazy to ISO you right now.

--

oh look, a "Nero didn't do what I would have done therefore he's scum" Get your head out of your arse. He’s scum so he’s just being obtuse.

Bullshit. This is the “throw mud at those suspecting me” defense. Why don’t you refute my actual statements?

Please explain why you didn’t Insta-Neighborize Benmage Night 2. “I didn’t want to” isn’t an explanation that supports your play from a Town perspective. Especially given you per mastin can do more than 1 person a Night.

Lol no. I never said anything like “I didn’t target last night ‘cause I want to save my shots” Keep putting words into my mouth, I’m sure you’ll fool someone.

Bullshit. You never said ANYTHING about why you didn’t. And then you claimed to be an X-shot when you name claimed. If that isn’t the reason why you didn’t make a clearly Pro-Town choice with Benmage please, as requested above, please enlighten us.

So you do this all the time and its ok but when I do it its scummy? Way to slip.

Hey, look – more mud-slinging.

Link to support this statement or admit you are fabricating

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also I for the record clearly agree with Nero testing Acosmist tonight.

inb4 Nero claims to be out of uses / refuses to do so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, how willing would you be to vote Mastin?

I think I've been giving him a blind eye for living up to his town-self this game.

If I were to lynch him it probably would be at deadline. My gut says that mastin wouldn't be so willing to spend 3 game days calling me scum with no justification that he can support if he was scum. Otherwise my eventual Town flip would make all his "I am playing to my scum meta" a ticket to rope-ville. But that's just gut and I'll have to re-assess the rest of his play as it relates to others (I especially want to look at Thor's slot and how he treated them) to help to winnow out the inherent frustration his stupidity regarding me is generating in my heart. I'll also need to look at a few recent scum games of his to see if he tunnels this terribly as scum.

Angry - why exactly are you asking me this given you just were calling me scum with Zabriel?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So two more posts from mastin that amount to "No, You" on his unproven stance that Leashing a Serial Killer isn't smart and not a single link supporting his "Town MoI would want to leash a SK".

Noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Post 3002 is a classic example of active lurking scum. Read it carefully. Zab spends the first long paragraph discussing kill flavor speculation. It appears he’s engaged in the game and thinking about the impact of kill flavors. Why it is scummy, of course, is the fact nothing in that paragraph helps to catch scum at all. Yes, we know that certain characters are likely to be the killers (Nagini doing the swallowing, for example). The fact that we know the Mod has provide fake-claims per Tammy means a mass-name claim can’t catch them. So all Zabriel has done is waste 80% of his post telling us nothing useful to catching scum. It is pure Faux Town posting.

Did thor say anything in the neighborhood?

Funny that we are not seeing anything on this in the way of paraphrased content from either Mastin or Nero.

--

@Everyone – Please note that Mastin has been challenged to provide a single link for a Town game from MoI showing that he would support leashing a Serial Killer. He continues to dodge doing it because he can’t. This demonstrates that every element of his longwinded posts about me are pure rhetoric he knows he can’t actually support. He’s lying about having any meta to support his ‘suspicion’.

I’ll be posting this in every post I make in this game from here on out until Mastin either does as I have challenged him to do or admits he has not case when he spouts emptiness about my ‘meta’.

Meanwhile here is a direct example that shows what Town MoI thinks about Serial Killers from Olympus Mafia –

I start this post saying that we should lynch the likely Serial Killer.

This argument about reducing the total number of kills should look familiar.

This should also look familiar about my thoughts on directing Serial killers.

For those not familiar with that game – Gemini was a Serial Killer who won when all the Male Gods were dead (and thus could have won with Scum). The correct play there is the same as the correct play here – getting rid of the confirmed Kill source halving the number of kills that could hit Town. And the end result was a Town victory – removing the Serial Killer extended the game so that even when various lynches (Nachomamma, Chessderp) failed to hit scum Town had time to regroup and win.

So I can do what neither KK or Mastin cannot – show direct actual game results that support my stance.

--

Ya, you're probably town though. Why did you ask me about not voting Zab though?

I don’t get the question. Where did I ask you about not voting Zab? My issue resolves around you taking the stance that I’ve distanced from Zab (and thus not really pushed him hard) while you yourself can be characterized as doing the same with your jump off him today.

--

Spoiler: Responses for Mastin’s Reading

The evidence for why a leashed SK was gamebreakingly powerful has been given to the point where if I stated it again, it would be repetitious. I've brought every single point forward as to why the stance about having the leashed SK was powerful--as a start, she could have (and would have, despite all arguments to the contrary; I've shown the in-thread evidence from Tammy multiple times already) tested Aco's claim, with zero risk to the town.

We've also dismantled (to the point where any further would be repetitious, as everything I've said before hasn't been, as I brought in new reason after new reason) the counter-arguments multiple times, showing why they were appeals to repetition and fear without logical basis.

You keep repeating this line of crap as if it is meaningful.

Tammy NEVER would have tested Acosmist. It would be playing against her Wincon to risk directly dying by that action. She would have always found another player suspected to shoot and relied on the relative split in opinion on who is scum to keep herself alive as long as possible in hopes of fulfilling her Wincon (whatever it was). To pretend otherwise is either an indication that you aren’t as smart as you think you are or you are scum.

You’ve dismantled nothing and while I appreciate your cheekiness in pretending you have clearly the fact that Tammy was properly lynched instead of being allowed to live as SCUM shows you lost that argument soundly.

Not only that, but I've also shown a consistent pattern! He pushed Tammy, who for all intensive purposes was a mislynch.

Lynching Non-Town on Day 2 of a Large Theme game is never a mislynch. Have you always been this terrible a player Mastin? I have to admit I haven’t played much with you and the times I have you weren’t spectacular (Zach’s Large Normal where I argued heavily against you Town lynch as scum for WhiteKnight points) but I have seen enough players suggesting you were a good player.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: fair enough. I just didn't like your post Yesterday where you asked me why I wasn't voting Zab if my case was a 'slam-dunk'. I never called it such and

Zabriel not being around to respond to pressure is making it fucking impossible to get anything from him.

Actually the bolded is a very good point. Zabriel has no incentive to stop Active Lurking (as I previously noted).

UNVOTE: Mykonian
VOTE: Zabriel

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let me start with the now customary bold text –

@Everyone – Please note that Mastin has been challenged to provide a single link for a Town game from MoI showing that he would support leashing a Serial Killer. He continues to dodge doing it because he can’t. This demonstrates that every element of his longwinded posts about me are pure rhetoric he knows he can’t actually support. He’s lying about having any meta to support his ‘suspicion’.

If you want insight into why Mastin is continually dodging this I think reading this should tell you the reason.

My advice isn't to push BS. My advice isn't to admit that it's invalid, either. Both are detrimental. The best response is--in my opinion--to ignore it, for as long as you can, until another option would be less detrimental. (Most likely, admiting it's no longer valid. Many times, you don't have to say it's no longer valid, and it hurts your case to admit it, so just don't, until it is necessary--a good portion of the time, it won't be.)

He knows he’s busted and doesn’t want to hurt his ‘case’ by admitting so. So he’s directly ignoring it. I’m going to continue to bring this up at least once a day to remind everyone that Mastin is basically flinging bullshit and his behavior when challenged indicates he knows he is.

--

LOLOLOL beat a different drum if thats all you can bring up on me.

I’m adding Jason to my list of players I will vote as necessary at deadline. Because he has ignored my questions long enough and keeps posting “Caught for the wrong reasons” crap like this.

We test his claim, we could lose a Nero - town power role.

We lynch him, no loss to town really given scum won't want to target him anyway. And that tests his claim. Worst case, we lynch a PGO. Best case, we lynch lying scum.

So you know Nero is Town how exactly again? Can’t be his claim since you as a Mod have used Scum Neighborizors on multiple occasions.

So you don’t want to test Acos as it could cause the death of a Town Powerrole. But you’d by happy to lynch Acos as it would be “No Loss to Town”. Um whut? Lynching a PGO is 100% stupider than lynching a Neighborizor / Messenger / Any Other Role that can’t kill scum.

Nope.jpg. Scummy post.

hmm, I wonder if he could have a hit list based on flavor. Lyncher maybe, find Solid Snake and infect with Foxdie?

So he claimed Solid Snake immediately Day 1 and was never counter-claimed (you know, which would the proper move for Town when someone claims your character and you aren’t a Cop or Vig)? Yet he’s a lyncher looking for Solid Snake.

Yeah that couldn't be stupider a premise ...

--

This isn't a fucking KILL FLAVOR CLAIM BTW!

I DONT SEE THE MOD POSTING

Some Harry Potter or Metal gear guy, Town, FOXDIE carried Night 4

nope.jpg

But could you see the Mod posting

Some player, Role and Alignment, killed by FOXDIE Night X?

If so shut the hell up about it. If not let’s discuss exactly why you don’t think that’s viable.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nero gets his own post because his posting needs individual attention

–

The first element that needs direct attention is the following scummy, scummy posting by Nero –

No. I'm out of shots. MOI knew I was out of shots so that’s why he said this

He was setting me up.

I claimed to have 3. Tammy is 1. Mastin is 2 and Thor is 3. Anyone with basic counting and reading skills should have known I was out wich turns out to be MOI and only Moi.

See?

This is scum scrambling and lying out of their teeth.

Nero NEVER claimed any number of Codecs. Here is what he claimed, from
Post 2670

Didn’t use it last night. Yes it’s x-hot.

He repeats this at Post 2787

I have X codecs to give away.

Yes that’s right folks – he claimed X which is an unknown number. Yet now, after I correctly predicted his response which was “Oh, I’m out” I suddenly was setting him up and I knew he only had 3. And the reason why he states I knew he was out is a

DIRECT LIE.

Furthermore look at where I specifically address his claim as X-Shot and his response directly to that line where he says nothing about me being stupid for referring to it as X shot not 3 shot.

Scum scrambling to avoid risking suiciding on a claimed PGO.

Now on to other elements of his recent posts –

I really really really dislike MOI. He’s too experienced to be playing outguess the mod. Ditto for Kise. That said Kise leap frogs over MOI for shadowing.

Read Post 3012 in full and then look at the excerpt above. Note that in 3012 (or frankly in any of his recent posts) Nero does not address Kise directly at all. No quoting him or anything. In fact 3012 ostensibly is listing even more play from me Nero is trying to pass off as scummy. So Nero is saying “Well, Kise is more scummy than MoI” yet he’s not actually posting anything about Kise and is posting lots of things about me. This is scum wanting to disengage from their read since they are losing the battle badly on their play.

I don't like Ben. This is interesting. Thor's slot was a town doc yet he didn't protect Ben since that's the town thing to do right? So I guess the mod screwed up and Thor is really scum ‘cause he didn’t do “what a townie is supposed to do” I really feel like this “Nero didn’t do what a “townie” should have done” is more likely to come from scum.

Oh ho ho … a two-for-one of scumminess.

1. So you “didn’t like Ben” is the reason you are floating for not Neighborizing the Cop? That’s absurd. I’ve already laid out all the reasons Town Nero should have done so regardless of his thoughts about Ben being possible Mafia (which Nero just dodged saying “It’s not how I play”). The “I don’t like him” card is not playing to a Town Wincon
2. Straw-manning to say “Oh, Thor didn’t protect him and Thor flipped Town so your argument isn’t valid”. Who says Thor’s slot didn’t protect him and that scum don’t have a Strongman type of ability (limited or otherwise)? You do in this argument. Of course Town shouldn’t know that. Also to be a stickler – Thor replaced in at Post 2750 which was after Night 2 so he couldn’t have put in a protect on Benmage.

In out last game, (the revolution one) you were a claimed friendly neighbor. I questioned your claim, you therefore thought I was stupid for it since you were "confirmed". Of course you were confirmed to one player but still you WERE NOT confirmed to me and the rest of the players.

But I never once said anything about me being "confirmed town" 'cause I have a CONFIRMED role. Take your lies and get off my case.

Well this is quite hilarious. You are a Confirmed Neighborizor. Congrats. I never suggested you weren't a Neighborizor. I suggested you were a Scum Neighborizor. Regardless, your role says

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

about your alignment which is the only thing that is important to the game. So why were you yelling so much about being confirmed when you can

EASILY BE A SCUM ROLE?

Hmmm? You were trying to say that you being a Neighborizor meant your play couldn’t be suspected which is clearly incorrect.

For further yucks you bring up the ended game where I was confirmed Town

TO ANOTHER PLAYER WHO PUBLICLY DECLARED IT

and are trying to say the situations are at all analogus. They are not and either you are Town and now permanently wear the VI tag (like predecssors Furculow, Drmyshottyissik, and other terrible, terrible players) or are scum.

I’m thinking scum at this stage.

--

As a reminder on top of all the recent stuff above Nero is scummy for the following (which I have previously mentioned)

1. Not Neighbozing the Cop (addressed, again, above)
2. Repeatedly flip-flopping on his stance on the Messenger (first he is only scummy if a scummy player claims the role, then he became confirmed Scum to Nero here. Now he’s going back and forth between saying the Messenger should target Acosmist and saying if he’s scum he’d just lie about it. He's like a fish out of water on the floor ... hopping from position to position desperately trying to get a breath of relief yet still suffocating under his own scummy play.
3. When I brought up Nero’s play in Star Wars Mafia he attacked me for Lying about his partner. When I corrected who his partner on the list was and demonstrated how his behavior to that partner was just as I had claimed he’s never addressed that.
4. The last is a bit of relational information that isn’t scummy directly since none of them have flipped but here’s a bit that I’d like to remind everyone about –

My top 3 scum reads are you, Myk, and zab but with you voting Myk it looks like I’m wrong about one of you.

ISO Nero. Look at the amount of times he actually scum-hunts or even votes Mykonian or Zabriel.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note that despite requests neither Nero or Mastin have shared the posts Thor made in the QT. Just another reminder.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI.. no, I am saying hypo town, if he is town, we waste a town role on testing a claim

And I'm saying that is meaningless. You aren't willing to test a hypoTown role that is weak (Neighborizor) on a hypoTown role that is deadly to scum if confirmed (PGO). And you then say we lose nothing if we mislynch a PGO. That's so stupid I want to post the Jackie Chan face right now.

A Confirmed PGO means that scum have to make the tough choice to either lose a member killing him (1 for 1 which is good for Town) or leave him alive as confirmed Town and hope they can endgame him. If you are trying to say there is no downside to mislynching a Town PGO you need to find another game to play because you don't get Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Except that was never the issue. I said as much, in fact. Have said it. MoI continuing to push it is ignoring the fact that I've addressed why--
I never doubted MoI's stance on a normal SK. He has no incentive as either alignment to lie about it.

I do, and HAVE, doubted MoI's stance on an SK THIS game, BECAUSE OF the CIRCUMSTANCES of the SK--
It's not a normal SK, but a day-SK. More than that, it was a day-SK which the scum could LITERALLY NOT AFFORD TO KEEP ALIVE.

Oh so now you are back-tracking to say it is the circumstances and dodging all Meta elements to your argeument (Town MoI would keep that powerful role alive). Nice “Moving the Goalposts” tactic.

The fact remains that a Day Serial Killer is no different from a regular Serial Killer when it comes to leashing in this game. With a scum Roleblocker dead the circumstances are functionally the same for Town. The only difference is a slight timing difference (when does Town get the information on who the Serial Killer shot). With a Day Killer it is instant while with a regular Serial Killer it is at the same time as the Nightkill is disclosed. Town could still (if they were stupid) direct the regular Serial Killer who to target at Night and lynch them the next day if that person wasn’t shot.

Unless you want to argue that scum in this game have a Busdriver or Redirector in addition to their Roleblocker that would complicate the plan (and I’ve seen nothing either way that I can recall) your “the CIRCUMSTANCES” argument is just rhetoric. Which doesn’t surprise me given the rest of your play has been along those crappy lines.

AGAIN MASTIN - WHERE IS THIS STRONG META EVIDENCE YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT THAT PROVES TOWN MOI WOULD DO WHAT YOU KEEP SAYING? WHY NO SUPPORT FOR YOUR STATEMENTS WHEN MY GAME RECORD IS AN OPEN BOOK?

MoI's attempt at using my own threads is laughably bad, since I know them better than anyone else. He's
1: Taking a link over a year old,
2: From a post not even part of the guide,
3: Which is from before the revised version,
4: On a guide which I have consistently been rewriting, from "Thoughts While Isolated" and my recent Theory Project

Denying those are your direct words? Why didn’t you link to the ‘updated version’ that proves your thoughts have changed? It’s because I’m right and you are flailing at reasons why it should be dismissed.

Let's review the motive for his actions:
-Neighborizing the scum NK as scum, wasting one of his very limited shots gains him...
...Potential WIFOM that scum wouldn't ever do that.

Oh look Mastin makes my argument for me. He agrees that Scum Nero would not Neighborize their kill target. No mention of the fact that Town Nero logically should have since he has reason to think Benmage will either be protected or is scum he can bust in the QT.

Thanks for agreeing with me Mastin!

But let's go beyond his role. Let's look at his opinions, shall we? This scumhunting from Nero is in line exactly with what I see from him as town. He's been consistently on the offensive and never on the defensive (since even when he was defending himself, he was using it as an offense), pushing consistent suspects with a train of thought easy to follow. His suspects (MoI, Kise, and Cheery Dog. Oh, and if memory serves, probably AP as well.) are all pretty solidly placed; he's not waffling on them at all. But those reads aren't set in stone (confirmation bias), as they have changed over the course of the game, meaning he's willing to adapt his reads for new evidence, rather than morphing evidence to fit his reads. If that wasn't enough, he brings new insight almost every single time he posts, bringing new thoughts to the table each time, rather than repeating the same old stuff over and over again. *coughcoughmoicoughcough* Add in his stubbornness, and the guy can't get much stronger town on his play.

I’ll summarize this for everyone – “Shoot I can’t actually point out where MoI’s post is wrong since Nero is clearly lying. I’ll just post a large paragraph of unsupported statements (no links to meta or even posts this game) and hope people are tired enough of my fluff that they just accept it!”

-Plus, Thor had quite a strong push against MoI.

No, he didn’t. Once again not posting support for rhetoric. For those who don’t want to ISO review themselves here is actually what Thor said –

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Okay, why is he scum?

He sheeps Nero (who, as we recall, stopped avoiding the thread convienently within minutes of Thor asking who to vote) and then askes Nero why I am scum. Not a push at all.

I usually take discrediting the cop as a town tell.
What's so awesome about your Neighborizer claim? Seems like there's some confusion about when your power triggers.
Wanna clear that up for me?

Pretty much says he doesn’t believe Nero’s response is credible at face value. Not a push at all … in fact he goes as far as to say my play with Benmage was a Town tell for him.

@MoI - as someone okay with the Myrk lynch, does that synopsis hold water in your opinion?

Yeah, again asking me for my opinion on AP’s summary. Not a push at all.

2. Scummy.

Well that’s a strong push . Hell – the Nightkill WIFOM alone says I should have killed mastin instead of Thor since mastin is trying (failing miserably, but trying) get get my lynched. Thor didn't do anything to push for my lynch in the least. In fact he joined me on Els. Of course I’m Town, it’s a mislynch, and it isn’t going to happen but that’s beside the point when dealing with mastin’s terrible posting.

Those are every word Thor either directed at me or said about me. Again – Mastin doesn’t want facts to get in the way of his clear falsehoods.

[MagnaofIllusion]

After all, catching scum's worthless if you can't lynch scum. And I've been biding time this game, been essentially lurking, posting each day but not living up to activity standards because I lacked the motive.

As such, if you're town, I'd like to make this as explicit as possible: you're doing it wrong.

Irony.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I eagerly await both Zab and Nero to return to the thread and respond. I sense I’ll be waiting awhile but it is something I anticipate.

@Cheery Dog

– So what exactly do you want from my posts that would make you want to lynch my scum suspects (Mykonian, Zab, Nero, jasonT)?

--

@Peregrine

– Do you think spamming the thread with a bunch of random responses is effectively scum-hunting? What specifically do you love about Nero’s Post 3012? I’d like to know specifically what he wrote that you agree with.

MoI is giving scumvibes somewhat because of his response to the whole "leash the SK" thing. In Zom Com, there was 6 players with 4 town powers each, and he was working/reworking plans to use all of the claimed powers to catch scum with them, catch scum lying about them, bring killed town back to life, and basically cycle through everybody until town won.

Now, I'm expected to believe that MoI couldn't come up with a plan to use the power of a proven, unblockable, possibly night-kill eating dayvig to press a town advantage?

I see this and wonder what exactly your thought process is Peregrine. Because you linked (poorly since half your links don’t go to what they say they do, but I get what you are going for there) to a game where I explicitly argue against leashing as Serial Killer. And I’ve provide other links to Town MoI specifically arguing against it.

Did you read those links I provided? If so what about Zom-Com makes you think that I would want to leash a Serial Killer here?

--

Very much so. Why do you doubt this Kise?

Kise, imma let you finish but MoI had the best answer of all time …

Seriously – the argument was made previously that Nero

NOT

Neighborizing Nightkill target Benmage despite it being 'instant' was suspect given Tammy’s flip. Do you not understand (well, as scum you probably do but don’t want to admit to it, natch) that his choice to Neighborize the Nightkill last Night is suspect as hell in that regard?

I'm sure I read this post by MoI before. Fuck off MoI, make a new one.

I’m sorry I’m requiring people to provide content, support this positions with ACTUAL thread based information and generally read at a level higher than my daughter (who is in the 3rd grade).

No wait – I’m not. Why don’t you just go fuck yourself instead?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off, let me say--you don't want to underestimate me. You've been laughing me off, but you're ignoring the critical factor of time. You've already made plenty of enemies for the Tammy lynch and for the El lynch. You'll make more and more with each mislynch you push through. I've made some enemies, sure, but I've made a HECK of a lot more allies. And I'll continue to make more allies, with every mislynch I defend against. From Tammy to El, whenever you win, you lose support. You're in a position where plenty of people have you as a suspect. Even if you're only the primary suspect of a few people, you're a secondary and tertiary suspect for many more, and lots of people lean null on you.

Well let’s address the elements of this post from my perspective.

1. Underestimating you – Let’s be clear … when it comes to playing with me you get what you give. I can’t summarize it any more concisely than that. And frankly what you have given me has been a load of shouting rhetoric with not a shred of support. It’s why I’ve hammered you again and again to provide the meta you claim to be leaning on and calling you terrible. Because your play has been terrible. It’s almost as if you decided “To hell with actually being Pro-Town I think the way to go is to be Fate-lite”. And when I all I see from you is “MOI IS PLAYING TO HIS SCUM META, BLAH BLAH BLAH, EVERY SUSPECT OF HIS MUST BE TOWN, BLAH BLAH BLAH” you can’t expect me to take you seriously and not return comments in-kind. I notice you are talking out of both sides of your mouth in recent posts – I’m your top suspect and you are appealing to everyone to explain their Town read on me but you specifically say you are willing to entertain the concept of me being Town. I can’t help but wonder if like Nero you feel you’ve bit off more than you can chew with me and are looking to extricate from your MoI is auto-scum position. That’s what I see with all the “Watch your step, I’m more skilled and you have too many enemies” elements of this post.

2. The concept that I’ve made “enemies” for those lynches is an Appeal to Fear. So don’t, if you really want to have an open line of communication with me, bother using that type of tactic. It’s pointless and you’ve already staked 100% of your credibility on my being scum this game. The second I flip Town (which I will) you have flushed it down the drain. So trying to make me afraid of calling you out if I feel I need to isn't going to work.

3. Tammy wasn’t a mislynch and was again the correct lynch that day. I don’t really care whether you believe I am correct or not. But I will grind you into the ground every time you bring up that argument as a reason why you think I’m scum. Just FYI.

More than that, I'm charismatic when I choose to be. I know how the system works. I know how to pull the strings, to strike the bargains necessary to push a lynch through. So far, my efforts have been too little, too late, but I'm starting early this time. And that means I can direct people, I can get them to go my way and follow me, and honestly,

I think I can do that better than you can

, especially given that you keep on being wrong and I keep on being right.

The bolded makes me chuckle.

As to you being correct while I’m wrong – that’s quite frankly a load. You’ve yet to lynch scum and trying to sell that you were correct on Els being Town isn’t a feather in your cap. This is Mafia 101 – scum are in the best position to call scummy Town as such. The ‘Scum Lynched’ scoreboard right now is MoI -1, Mastin – 0. That’s the fact no matter how you want to parse "Tammy wasn't scum she was a Serial Killer" semantics. Until you can actually push for a scum lynch your series of White Knight postings actually just increases the likelihood you are scum for those who are actually Town looking to assess everyone’s alignment.

Make no mistake – you aren’t in my Top 4 of scum suspects at this point. You’ve staked too much of your rep on getting a 1v1 with me. I know you aren’t getting it so you’ve effectively neutered yourself which I doubt scum Mastin would do.

So again, don't underestimate me. More than that, don't antagonize me. Right now, for this post, I'm entertaining the idea that you're town.

And I'm telling you that regardless of your alignment, having me as an enemy will not end well for you.

So play with me for a while. I want you to tell me not just your suspects and not just your setup spec and not just who you're defending. I want from you, a full list of reads, on the entire playerlist. For instance, you've consistently dodged giving a reading on Kise.

Frankly the bolded is a two way street. I think you underestimate just how dangerous an Town opponent I am mastin – there is a reason why one of us has a custom title memorializing how often they get killed Night 1 and one of us used to have a custom title about how much we posted.

Don’t bother asking me for a full reads list. I don’t do those and never will. I’ll tell you who my suspects are and why but I’m not making a nice, tidy, and utterly useless list ranking all the players in the game Town to Scum. They don’t help catch scum and at best only serves to tell them which players are most useful for them to kill if they are foolish enough to let me live.

As to dodging giving a reading on Kise I’m going to ask you to point to posts made by anyone but yourself who had requested it. Because frankly that comment is just right up the rhetoric with no support alley you’ve been walking down all game and doesn’t engender goodwill from me.

Also, I want to know--have you read the entire game? You replaced in, you've done isos, you've been playing since ~5 pages before replacing in and maybe even some of the first pages, but I want to know if you've actually read the game in context entirely.

No, I have not. I’m not going to read 80+ pages at this stage. Frankly a lot of that has to do with you. I have a finite amount of time during to read the game and I’ve had to devote enough of my time not devoted to pointing out current scummy play (see my posts) to making sure Town sees your posts re: me make are devoid of support and analysis of motivation.

So in summary - if you want to play nice I'm more than open to doing so. For me that means an open line of communication. It does not mean jumping through any hoops you think you want jumped through.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're still scum, and this post pretty much just reaffirms it, from you twisting my words.

For someone who practically begged me not to antagonize you this is a pretty sad response. Although I think in general that applies to this whole post on a macro level since you’ve reverted right back to the prior Mastin-MoI intereaction meta.

It's possible you're town, yes, but not probable.

My request was not unreasonable, for you to do your best to convince me it's the other way around, for you to be probable town and only possible town.

Instead, you do this, and try to say that I'm wiggling out of my read on you. Entertain the possibility is exactly that--willing to hear it. Nothing more. Saying otherwise directly contradicts pretty much everything, especially given that when responding, you saw how I treated Aco, AP, Cheery Dog, and Kise, all who I suspect, but all who I was addressing, for the sake of entertaining the possibility of them being town, as if they were.

The bolded shows you aren’t approaching what you expect from me from a logical standpoint. Let me lay things out for you.

1. I don’t ‘fear’ you Mastin. Regardless of your alignment (which as I have said I don’t think is probably scum based on the current situation) it is going to take every bit of your credibility and bargaining skills to try to get my lynched. And if you somehow do manage to succeed the heavy rhetoric you have laid down in regards to your 1v1 means you will have flushed every bit of your credibility in doing so. So be it Town or Scum you will render yourself useless and possible lynch-bait for the remainder of the game. I doubt you will do so for what I perceive to be likely a pride issue on your end.
2. I don’t negotiate with those I don’t have a solid Town read on. Now if someone I thought was solid Town made the requests you did I might consider stepping outside the norm to accommodate them. You are not a solid Town read. You are Null leaning Town.

Now that I’ve established the baseline I’ll say again – want me to give you the ‘proper deference’ you feel you deserve? Lynch some scum. You are 0-fer so far.

I don't do this often. I don't treat my suspects this way most of the time. So don't waste it. I'm a nice guy, though, so let's give you a second shot.

I don’t care. Aside from the slight Appeal to Fear here (cross me and there will be hell to pay) which as i explained above is pointless this is just posturing on your point.

And not more than that? I have no memory of comments from you on Cheery Dog. At all.
I have no memory of comments on Kise. At all.
For that matter, I don't really remember you having anything on PV or Yates, either.

I mean, I know who you're pushing as scum. I know you've defended Aco and the birds. I know you've interacted with Khan and can guess the read there.

Show me them. Show me Kise, Cheery Dog, PV, and Yates interactions.

Yup. That’s what you get. Again – you aren’t a Town read for me. I don’t jump through hoops for you. Your lack of memory isn’t really my problem. It’s yours. Use the ISO function. It’s your friend. That will show you the entirety of my posts. That way you can see my post ( as an example – my back and forth with Yates) that you have forgotten (either because you’ve been in “I’m Mastin and I’m right so I’m not reading MoI’s posts not made to me” mode (more likely) or you are scum (less likely) ).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Acosmist - I've had a Town read on you for your PGO claim and early ISO posting. Frankly though your posting in the last two days leaves a lot to be desired. Please do a better job of being useful. Lately you are hovering at a PMyst / T-Bone level of posting. That's not a good thing if you are Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Angry

- While I appreciate you being pro-active I don't think pushing a Mastin wagon at this point is Pro-Town. He's well into my second tier of possible scum. Zabriel continues to lurk-a-derp and needs votes. Please move to him. You can always do what I am doing and point out scummy posting as it happens (see Nero) while keeping your vote where it is most Pro-Town.

Thanks in advance!

[MagnaofIllusion]

While I go sort this out in my mind for a while.

If MoI's scum and Aco town, if Aco's scum and MoI's scum

,

if both are scum and MoI a genius

, or neither scum and me in need of rope.

I'll sort this out for you - I've crossed out the possibilities that have no chance of occuring (since they all revolve around your derp read of me as scum for

LULZ META THAT YOU KEEP DODGING COMMITTING TO WITH SUPPORT

).

While the last remaining options is far from my first choice the fact that you call players like Nero (when his whole "MoI knew I was out of shots" flailing is clearly not from a Town perspective) and jasonT (who is playing much more to his scum meta of staying out of the fucking limelight - see the recently ended Dresden files where JasonT Town stuck his nose right out there Day 1) Town indicates of all the options presented it is the best one.

Why do you think Zabriel is Town Mastin (other than "Lulz you think he is scum")? I'd really like to see your support for the stance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd like the following people to comment directly about the "MoI is framing me" portion of my Post 3059 directed at Nero as to what is says about each of our respective alignments. Of course scum can feel free to dodge

- Mastin, mykonian, Zabriel, Peregrine, Kublia Khan, jasonT1981

[MagnaofIllusion]

it wasn't worth my time to read it. I fail to see the relevance of you having a good guess and him being annoyed at having no shots left. How does this make either of you scum again?

It doesn't. and stop bolding your posts tyvm. Makes you damn hard to read without gaining a migraine

Go die in a fire if by some miracle of miracles you are Town. Because frankly this prissy prima-donna attitude (it wasn't worth my time to READ IN A GAME BASED ON THE WRITTEN WORD) is so fucking annoying it is reaching "Mod Blacklist" territory for me if you are Town.

If you are scum as I suspect - I can understand completely.

[MagnaofIllusion]

before you put me on any kind of blacklist, tell me how this is relevant to the question whether nero is scum. Because that is apparently way too hard to answer for you, while you do ask me to read it and say something relevant about it. All I see is a lot of MoI being MoI. Fucking dragon spewing fire and very little scumhunting.

No fucking wait yourself.

Why the fuck does Nero Town directly lie about saying I was scum "framing him since I knew he was out of shots" when he FUCKING NEVER SAID BEFORE SAID POSTS HE ONLY HAD THREE SHOTS?

It's not rocket science you self-righteous stupid prick. He CLEARLY LIED. No two ways about it. And it's RIGHT THERE IN THE ORIGINAL POST YOU WHINED ABOUT READING!

So are you scum defending Nero or just as stupid as you are presenting Myk?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lynch zabriel.

Well look where I am voting and get back to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Will be LA from today at 5:00pm EST until next Thursday. Have normal and holiday related family duties, a child with a recovering broken wrist, a borderline terminal cat this weekend. Also have a remote work assignment Monday through Wednesday that will also limit my posting.

I might get a chance to post some this weekend in the evenings. If I do it probably will be more "Synthesis of what I think" as opposed to "Respond to people" although PeregrineV will get my first salvo as I have some stuff to say to him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are either Nero or Zab not hung yet?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’m not fully back yet – probably will not really get to dig into the thread until tomorrow.

Still will vote for Mykonian, Nero and jasonT1981 beyond where my vote already is.

@Kublia

– what is your Nero read?

--

How much intersection is there between people who wanted the SK to kill me and people who don't want me confirmed? Because that's deranged.

This needs to be assessed because you WILL find scum in that pool. – force 3rd party killing role to off the Town PGO (sparing them having to lose a member doing it themselves) and then keeping the role from being confirmed after the Tammy is lynched.

Reminder for self – check on at a later date.

I'm really not seeing anyone here as town. At all. No one is hammering an objective case on a single person. Wagons are forming and then disintegrating for no good reason.

MoI, when were we ever town together? Just DBZ?

From someone playing as you are this game I very much don’t think I like seeing “Everyone sucks” from you …

We’ve played in only DBZ together if I recall. Mostly it’s been a Mod-player relationship between us that I remember. The only other common game we played in was Futurama, and that was only technicaly since I replaced in long after you died.

--

And you make a list. I love lists. They tell me who's scum and who needs to force themselves to get reads on paper without actually wanting to give too much away.

Yeah – you make said list yourself. So we can see how ‘honest’ your reads are.

--

@Everone saying that Zabriel is Town due to ‘Town tells’ – No. Don’t be stupid.

Look at his ISO. Seriously, look at it. It is devoid of any significant scum-hunting. It is filled with active-lurk speculation filler that does nothing to move forward the game. His last two posts are no different. Read them carefully – he spends a significant amount of time wasting wordage on an issue that does nothing to catch scum (the fact that scum will have fake-claims). He ostensibly says he brought up the issue to catch scum slipping but draws zero conclusions from the resulting discussion.

And look at the manner of his last vote –

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with Mastin right now. AP is making some good points about PV which deserve some attention, particularly points regarding posturing. I'd like to see what happens here.

VOTE: PV

His reason for voting Peregrine can be distilled down to the following –

1. AP made good points (total abdication of any responsibility for the vote)
2. PV needs attention (which Zab never actually gives him – his subsequent posts are linked above).

Anyone wanting to sell me that Zab is disinterested Town should not bother. The Mod almost has double the posts that Zab does. That’s the world’s worst excuse. If you are disinterested Town because you don’t have a flashy power-role you should stop playing Mafia. Scum have been and will continue to be caught by VT roles who give a damn

--

unvote; vote: PV

I'm vla too until PV is lynched.

If you are Town I hate you. Just know that.

--

He buddied you quite hard. Easy to towntell, I guess.

So is Cheery scum or just a terrible player for this transgression?

--

Deff. Which is why I keep asking him to confirm what his flavor is. Wait a second....didn't you accuse me earlier of not asking the mod to clarify things is a scum tell? But when ACO doesn't clarify with the mod its not a scum tell? Hello selective scumhunting.

So you have to be scum to be this stupid. He said his kill flavor is death by Foxdie. Why should he keep answering your pointless questions?

lol.

This is lots of words but not saying anything

. I commented on Kise. Stop being dumb. Are you upset that you had to share a line with him?

Lulz, what a classic “Haha laugh it off” scum response from you Nero. Maybe if you throw crap (the bolded) it will stick, huh?

Clearly your post doesn’t show a Town scum-hunting perspective since you didn’t address a single post of Kise’s and addressed a litany of mine. Yet Kise rose above me on the scum-ladder.

Here’s a tip for the future – when you spend a post calling Player X scummy for quoted post 1, 2 and 3 yet move him below another player who you don’t quote at all for what is a purely fabricated reason that’s what’s called scum-motivated play. You aren’t really interested in finding scum – just defending yourself from your biggest critic and preteding to develop reads.

I'm so hurt MOI. I'm constantly fucking right (though not all the time) as where you powerlynch town like crazy. But then again you’re scum and just trying to ruffle my feathers so meh.

This is classic scum mud slinging and has the nice little bonus of attacking me personally (which you would be doing if you thought I was Town) and turning around and calling me scum (which would mean I’m not terrible but doing a great job if it were true).

no.

Your first post was clearly stating that you thought I was lying. How was I supposed to know that were claiming that I was lying about my alignment when I looked like you were accusing me of lying about being a nieghborizer altogether?

Did you suspect my play? No. You suspected my role. You know what this looks like? Scum backtracking to put a case on me after you found out I was confirmed. You know that I’m not that hard to mislynch but I’m experienced enough to not be “low hanging fruit” I have no chance of getting you lynched unless we 1 vs. 1 (which I’m sure you’ll back out of.) So let me congratulate you, AP and Kise on winning.

Nope.jpg. The bolded is clearly not true at all as evidenced by Kise picking up on exactly the same thing I did – that your claim made little sense as Town. I like that you try to shift (you didn’t suspect my play) when I’ve piled up a mound of “This play from Nero isn’t Town Motivated” evidence showing just that.

And the “I’m an easy mislynch” card appears (similar to mykonian, interestingly enough since both of you are scummy). If that was the case your wagon would have taken off since you are scummy. Yet that didn’t happen.

I don’t have time today but I will make a full case on you either Thursday or Friday so everything is consolidated in one place.

And how is my role any weaker than a messenger? Its not.

I’m just wanting to remind everyone of what he responded to with this -

And I'm saying that is meaningless. You aren't willing to test a hypoTown role that is weak (Neighborizor) on a hypoTown role that is deadly to scum if confirmed (PGO).

Nothing in that post by me says anything about Nero’s role (Neighborizor) being weaker than the Messenger. The messenger isn’t mentioned at all. What is mentioned is that his role is significantly weaker than Acosmist’s role if both are Town.

Straw-manning scum right there.

Only that Mastin did. Hi liar scum.

Link to where Mastin did a run-down of what Thor wrote in QT that occurred before Post 3063. I’ll be waiting.

Also funny you call me liar scum when you are a

CONFIRMED LIAR

for the whole “MoI knows I am out of shots” attack you made and that you directly avoided discussing for some odd reason.

Why is that? I clearly proved you lied about the fact that you had claimed 3-shot Neighborizor before I called out your “lack of shots”.

@EVERYONE – Nero is clearly dodging the issue as he doesn’t want to address the fact he’s a confirmed liar.

KK addresses this very fact again from his own angle in Post 3190 and Nero never addresses it. So he isn’t just dodging his scum-reads – KK is nowhere to be found in his scum list.

no. stop shadowing MOI.

Not that he doesn’t call Kublai scum for this despite calling Kise scum for this exact same reason. He’s got a Town read on KK. Scum scum scum scum scum ….

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, Nero's town. Period. Stop pursuing him. On the surface, his wording seems to contradict itself. I'll give you that much about him. But if you get into the mindset, you can tell that Nero (legitimately) believes everything he's saying. Between not remembering things perfectly and things which were implied without being outright stated, he's legitimately frustrated and confused as to why, exactly, people are pushing suspicion onto him when he knows he's telling the truth.

Jason's also about as town as he can be.

And myk's not getting lynched, like, ever.


If you want a lynch on zab, do better at convincing me. Focus on him. Show me more. I'll listen. But right now, your points against zab are footnotes compared to your points against the players who I'm not going to ever support a lynch of. You have me as town (albeit weak-town), so if you want me on your side, you're going to have to persuade me.
And right now, I'm not.

Mastin why do you persist in believing your reads are important to me? Here's where I am at - you blew 100% of your credibility with me in your "LUZLUZLL MoI is scum via meta and I'll just repeat it hoping people listen". And you've staked too much your reads prior to this simply on "well MoI suspects them they must be Town" for me not to really ignore your stance as "Mastin is going to ignore me so vise-versa".

Jason isn't Town via play. This is his scum meta to a tee. I should know we discussed it in QT both times were were partners in the past (Newbie game and Zach's Large Normal).

You are giving Nero a "he's incompetent therefore he is Town" pass. I don't care. You are clearly ignoring eveything I posted on him (his flip flop on the messenger yesterday, the fact that his reaction to being asked to test is to say "OH NO MOI IS SETTING ME UP" not "I can't I'm out of shots", and the fact that he's clung to the fact that him being a Neighborizor should shield him when it isn't alignment confirming in the least) for you own read.

I similarly chuckle at your empty "Mykonian is never getting lynched" bravado because it at best is Anti-Town stupid play if you are Town and you should know better in that scenario.

You do get that I'm still V/LA and don't have time to make cases on all my suspects, right? And that I'm not ignoring suspects you deem not lynchable because you say so, right? And that you are doing NOTHING to convince me of your suspects, right?

We have no common ground. I don't see it developing before one of us ends up dead. I'm not ignoring three of my top scum suspects just because you think they are Town. I'm trying to not work the thread responding to you on these any more than the minimum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

and lurking is the wrong word I guess. He's just gone, makes no impression on the game anymore.

This post assumes me to no end in that I love when scum get cheeky about activity.

My posts while V/LA have had more content per capita (in actually trying to progress the game with reads and discussion) than all of mykonian’s posts since my V/LA.

And despite the fact I am under zero pressure he tries to assert I am dodging it to melt scum reads on me.

Laughble. Scummy, but laughable.

@Mastin

- You can try to sell me on how Mykonian is Town because I'd really love to see you justify that position. Because your "Look deeper" is frankly just word-throwing fluff since you never provide links to behaviors you say show surface scum intent but deeper Town motivation.

Anyway I’ve got a couple of smaller games to get caught up in before I get back to my first priority which is responding to Peregrine’s posts and reviewing to see if I am willing to lynch him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Town in this game make statements, make stuff happen. Scum do not. Which is why Jason, Cheery, MoI, Yates, Kise, zabriel and to a certain extend Acosmist all should be on the top side of people's scumlist. There are things excusing them from it somewhere, and it'd be silly to assume they were all scum, but they are making too little things move, stepping on too few toes, taking too few risks.

Again look at the scum talk about this when he himself has less impact on the game than at least half of those listed in his 'suspect' list. I've made more statements today indicative of who I think is scum and why than he have the

ENTIRE

game.

But he is scum of course so isn't going to agree, natch.

Scum scum scum Mykonian scum (sing this with a catchy jingle in your heart Town - it will do you good!)

[MagnaofIllusion]

No because you are useless sack of nothing ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Kise

– You need to address the following question put forth by Peregrine … it’s pretty important you do so before Night.

Where in the thread does Nero say what he told Tammy in their QT?
Not only that, but where in the thread does Nero say something that shows he is "PLAYING TAMMY IN THE QT?"

Failure to do so will be … unwise …

@Peregrine

– You do understand the implications of what your questions mean in regards to Nero’s alignement, correct? I understand the implications on Kise.

--

sigh, you don't get to talk about MoI without him calling you scum I guess. Ain't this game fun.

For the amount of impact you are making there are surprisingly little people following you.

I’ve been consistently calling you scum since I replaced in. Because you are obv-scum and people are just too stupid to see it. But yes, pretend I haven’t :roll”

--

Wrong. If it's pro-town, I don't see why town-MoI would NOT do it.

Since I don’t have endless time tonight Peregrine let me just say the following –

You are wrong. Leashing ANY kind of SK is not Pro-Town. Suffice it to say I say I disagree with your stance in totality and the point you bring up are not meaningful or swaying in the leash. Tomorrow in the AM I will devote a post to point by point
explaining why.

I've never seen any "policies" put forth by MoI.

The good fucking read the links I made earlier if you are Town. Because I didn’t make the for my health and you saying “I don’t understand why Town-MoI would do this” and then “I didn’t read them as I assumed they said claimed they said” makes me want to hang you.

Especially when both examples you bring forth to ‘show’ I make plans are PoE plans predicated on either mass-claims and in no way, shape or form similar to leashing a Serial Killer.

@Peregrine – Please claim whether you are Harry Potter or MGS in your next post. It is fairly important if I am parsing Cheery’s claim correctly.

--

@Mastin

– Post 3387 is stupid. It’s not VCA it is what you expressly called bad VCA analysis in your rather long work in progress.. You aren’t looking at motivation and context just arbitrarily assuming scum are in a specific place when you acknowledge that you have experienced mislynch wagons that were all Town.

And frankly finding that link reminds me that you seem to have broken a large number of your own “good play” guide points and makes me really question whether I should be reading you as Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So why instead of ignoring it before did you not just do that in the first place? Frankly I'm fucking sick to death of Acosmist's stupidity this game and you getting in on the act also when I have actual scum suspects doing the same (Nero NEVER addressing his "MoI knew I had three shots" lie for example) thing makes my blood boil.

Frankly this game is getting as close to making me actually do a replace out as I have ever gotten on MS. And that's saying something since I have never, ever done it even when dealing with the likes of Fate and Chessderp.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Deadline is in approximately 14 hours. Let’s get a move on people …

Oh look, suddenly Zab isn’t scum and Mykonian is happy to wagon with him. Lulz

@Mastin

– so what say you about Mykonian wagonnind today with BOTH players he has either voted or called scum (myself and Zab)?

--

You'd almost think I've been accusing you of being a lot of bark and very little bite all game as well

Just take this post for example. That's a huge ass posts which does just one thing: ask perv for a roleclaim. Oh, and barking some more at people.

See this is pure fluff. You are taking pot shots when frankly I’ve been more effective this game in getting my scum-reads lynched than you have (Tammy, Elos since I replaced in). And while Els was just a terrible, terrible Town that doesn’t take away from the fact I’m more effective and useful than you.

Of course you are scum hiding behind Mastin’s derp-Town read on you so you don’t need to be effective but that’s secondary to the issue of your scummy posting above. It is nice to have loud but terrible misguided players defending you for terrible reasons isn't it?

--

Yates is within my list of acceptable lynches for today.

VOTE: Yates

Why is it so hard to lynch this cheecky active lurking scum-fuck?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I go on to lynch the rest of his team if they are stupid enough to leave me alive. Duh.

Who is scum Acosmist?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Where did I say that? No-one listens to me after I get Nightkilled anyway but anyone with a reading comprehension level above my daughter's can clearly read my posts and see who I think is scum.

Who is scum Acosmist?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because frankly I don't feel like humoring you since you likewise aren't telling me who is scum ... funny how that works.

Why aren't you reading the thread?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If my reaction not answering a simple question is off yours is also off for not likewise answering a simple question. DERP

You aren't reading the thread as I've multiple times today stated who I think is scum. I asked you who is scum since you haven't committed to anything concrete on that end since I joined the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lulz.

[MagnaofIllusion]

(This is what I'm talking about, MoI. Last I checked, you had both jason and myk as scum with zab. You're concerned about myk being willing to go on a wagon with people he suspects, but it's a two-way street. )

No I'm more concerned with you making light it in regards to me earlier and wanting to see if your reaction to Myk doing the exact same thing made sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Mastin why are you not voting your claimed top lynch choice despite him being the top wagon ATM?

Oh and Nero is still a scum-fuck and a post describing why is upcoming.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gosh, I wished someone had seen els was town... wait, I did!

And this is the kind of scumtastic response I expect from obv-scum. Because scum have the absolute easiest time ‘reading’ scummy Town as Town since they have the insight the aren’t scum. And motivation to grandstand (like you are doing now) as if a correct Town read is a Town tell.

--

This whole "look Nero didn't want to target Aco and potentially die" is rubbish. I'm town, I believe I can help. Why would I want to kill myself when we could just lynch your derpy/scummy ass?

Of course you can help. But not by potentially protecting critical information the Town Cop might have had. And certainly not by either confirming a Town Role that would force scum to sacrifice a member to kill them or by busting a scum fake-claim in testing Acosmist. [/off sarcasm]

So how do you know that the mod will say "playerX has died by Foxdie night X"? You don't. It’s pretty simple to answer this. Why won't he? Further more I don't like his "a player will die sometime during the game"

It’s fucking implicit in his suggestion. Why do you pretend it is not. See and the “he’s said it multiple times why shouldn’t he do it again” is scumtastic Appealing to Repetition on your part.

Here’s a hint – someone dies by Foxdie / anything Foxdie related and doesn’t have an active ability? He’s busted. Someone says they are going to test him and they don’t die by Foxdie but by something very distinct? Then his claim becomes very much in question.

Yup – no reason at all think your badgering isn’t scummy as all fuck.

Are you claiming that 'cause I'm "attacking you personally” that I secretly think you are town? lol How is that any different than you thinking that I'm a VI. Its not. Sounds alot like you can dish it but can't take it. I've also had a scum read on Zoro since day 1 and you've done nothing to help with that so I'm not "turning around" and doing anything. Just keep lying, scum.

Yup and I’ll just note you did jack shit to push this “scum read” until I called you to the carpet as scum.

DAT SCUM CLAIM. As town, MOI doesn’t know Kise’s alignment and therefore wouldn’t know if he’s trustworthy or just scum shadowing MOI. But MOI is willing to trust Kise? That’s not town in the least. And you didn’t. You suspected my role and then went back and “suspected” my play.

DAT SCUMMY ATTEMPT TO SAY I CAN’T HAVE A TOWN READ AND AGREE WITH THEIR OBSERVATIONS

. Seriously is this the best you can do on that issue?

DIE LIAR SCUM DIE!!!

And this is scumtastic. Let’s examine the quote Nero shows to support his “Mastin provided a summary of Thor’s contributions”

And, yes, Thor has a post in there, asking why he was neighborized, but neither I (was away over the weekened) nor Nero had the time to respond to it by the time day had started. So, he's more town than the messenger is.

Let’s actually look at the text of Post 3004 –

Because
-Nero is limited-shot.
-Nero's ability is more useful to the town.
-Nero recruiting Thor the same night the scum killed him--contrary to what anyone else may claim--DOES make Nero town. As scum, it wastes a shot of a limited-shot role. (Nero has no reason to lie about any aspect of his role, town or scum.)

And, yes, Thor has a post in there, asking why he was neighborized, but neither I (was away over the weekened) nor Nero had the time to respond to it by the time day had started

. So, he's more town than the messenger is. (Sorry, messenger, but you know it's true. )

Again, people have been supporting the plan for one of the two to target Aco. I would strongly encourage it be the messenger, whose role isn't that strong, rather than Nero, whose role is actually quite valuable, given that he and I can talk. (For instance, going into night, I can tell him who the messenger is, so that even if I die with the messenger unclaimed, he can still relay it to the town.)

So how does that sound?
Anything Nero would do to target Aco, the messenger targeting Aco can also do--but it has the added benefit of keeping a stronger role alive and letting a weaker less-valuable role potentially die.

I’ve bolded the line he quotes to show you just the enormity of the manner in which scum-fuck Nero clipped that quote to pretend it was obvious that Mastin had responded. He pulls a line buried in a post by Mastin that wasn’t even meant to address the QT but why he has a town-read on Nero.

And this brings up another point – so Thor (who apparently was Town as fuck to Nero since he Neighorized him and mastin ast the same time) asks a question in the QT. And Nero has ZERO time to actually interact with him and get Town Thor’s insights. Yet he never would be scum who killed his Neighborize target, right?

So you are important Town PowerRole who wants to ‘help find scum’. And your actions so far are to

1. Neighborize a SK and not find she is scummy in QT.
2. Avoid neighborizing the Town Cop who busted said Serial Killer.
3. Neighborize two players (one of them now confirmed Town) on the same Night and not actually use the QT to trade ideas.

Doesn’t look very Pro-Town from my vantage point.

Yes I did. I admitted MOI was right.

Oh, you did? You admit you were a lying scum fuck in that attack and continue to call my lying scum at every term. But you aren’t lying scum huh? Yes, that’s Cognitive Dissonance ….

And let’s examine said retraction (which is buried in a mis-quote at Post 3181

no. MOI's correct that I only claimed X-shot. Did I "lie" on purpose? no.

+

I find it funny that he finds this scummy but he's allowed to fill my mouth with things I never said.

So he admits he’s wrong and immediately deflects the fact that100% of his attack on that front by trying to say I am ‘putting words in his mouth’ which is actually what he did when he tried to claim I was calling his claim fake.

Lying scum

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Mastin -

HOW THE FUCK IS NERO A MASON TO YOU WHEN YOU DISCUSSED NOTHING IN THE NIGHT QT LAST NIGHT?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, and LA as usual for weekend family duties til Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lulz ... scum failed to lynch you ... that's a nice one ...

VOTE: Zabriel

Anyone who doesn't see yesterday's No Lynch as scum wanting to avoid bussing needs to retire from Mafia. Or they are Zab's partners in which case they are excused.

Mastin needs to explain why his vote wasn't moved to Zab before he went V/LA. And also answer Kublia's question about Nighttime discussion.

Mykonian's later day hop off is nice in that once Zab flips scum it is clearer than ever that they are partners. Also Nero is still scum too.

If someone other than Acosmist got a message last Night the Messenger needs to explain in detail why that happened.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you've called it then. Me, Nero, Myk, and Mastin? Plus AV from earlier. Are you really going to say that not one of the fake partners you're linking me to would be willing to bus and then draw a fuck-ton of attention after I flip? Okay. That makes COMPLETE sense.

Lulz. If you read you'd understand that I don't consider mastin likely scum. His behavior at the end of the day is suspect but my overall read is still probably Town.

Now Nero / myk / you makes absolute sense to me. Mykonian obviously was willing to bus until a chance at a mislynch came along.

Continue to flail until you dingle-dangle scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bailing on your partner's wagon when the heat gets turned up is the scummiest shit ever. Nobody does that.

That’s right hand-wave it away. Let’s look at the toils and tribulations of mykonian’s votes yesterday for illustration of exactly why his behavior definitely fits as a bussing / distancing partner.

Votecount 4.6

zabriel - 4 (Acosmist, MagnaofIllusion, mykonian, AngryPidgeon)
mykonian - 2 (Kise, pidgey)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (zabriel)
Acosmist - 1 (jasonT1981)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)
Kise - 1 (mastin2)

Not voting - PeregrineV, Kublai Khan, Cheery Dog

This is the highest your wagon got on the Vote-Counts – only half the number required to lynch. And there mykonian sits.

Now let’s fast-forward and look at vote movements from here …

Votecount 4.7

PeregrineV - 4 (Cheery Dog, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Kise)
zabriel - 3 (Acosmist, MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981)
AngryPidgeon - 2 (Kublai Khan, mastin2)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (mykonian)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)

Not voting – PeregrineV

So the heat has shifted to Peregrine and mykonian hops off to a non-starter wagon (me). Now that another wagon has appeared no need for him to keep your wagon as viable (which it would be if he was still there).

Votecount 4.8

PeregrineV - 4 (Cheery Dog, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Kise)
zabriel - 3 (Acosmist, MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981)
AngryPidgeon - 2 (Kublai Khan, mastin2)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
pidgey - 1 (mykonian)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)

Not voting – PeregrineV

Wagon on Peregrine still the most viable and mykonian has chosen another non-starter wagon (Pidgey this time) as opposed to moving back to you and making his “suspect’s” wagon as viable as Peregrine’s. Since you supposedly has you as scum why did he do that?

Votecount 4.9

PeregrineV - 3 (Cheery Dog, zabriel, Kise)
AngryPidgeon - 3 (Kublai Khan, mastin2, Acosmist)
zabriel - 2 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981)
mykonian - 2 (pidgey, AngryPidgeon)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
pidgey - 1 (mykonian)

Not voting – PeregrineV

So now two wagons oppose yours and mykonian himself has a wagon tied with yours. He specifically said yesterday he would not vote for AngryP. He was mum on Peregrine. Again – why does non-parnter mykonian sit with his vote idled when two players he apparently doesn’t want to vote are eclipsing your wagon. Town mykonian surely would have every reason to want your wagon to go through.

Votecount 4.10

AngryPidgeon - 4 (Kublai Khan, mastin2, Acosmist, Nero Cain)
PeregrineV - 3 (Cheery Dog, zabriel, Kise)
zabriel - 2 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981)
mykonian - 2 (pidgey, AngryPidgeon)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
pidgey - 1 (mykonian)

Not voting – PeregrineV

Votecount 4.11

AngryPidgeon - 4 (Kublai Khan, Acosmist, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
PeregrineV - 3 (Cheery Dog, zabriel, Kise)
zabriel - 3 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981, mykonian)
mykonian - 2 (pidgey, AngryPidgeon)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
Cheery Dog - 1 (mastin2)

AngryPidgeon - 5 (Kublai Khan, Acosmist, Nero Cain, PeregrineV, Cheery Dog)
PeregrineV - 3 (zabriel, Kise, AngryPidgeon)
zabriel - 3 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981, mykonian)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
Cheery Dog - 1 (mastin2)

And now we see mykonian finally returns to your wagon only when said vote doesn’t make it a viable counter to AngryP who he calls Town. At a time when momentum on AngryP is clearly growing. Classic distancing.

Votecount 4.13

AngryPidgeon - 4 (Kublai Khan, Acosmist, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
zabriel - 4 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981, mykonian, Cheery Dog)
PeregrineV - 2 (zabriel, Kise)
Yates - 2 (mastin2, AngryPidgeon)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)

Votecount 4.14

zabriel - 5 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981, Cheery Dog, Kise, Acosmist)
Yates - 4 (mastin2, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, mykonian)
AngryPidgeon - 3 (Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)

And low and behold what do we have here? Zabriel’s wagon suddenly is just as viable as Angry P’s. What happens next? Mykonian jumps OFF said wagon to Yates to join the person he supposedly suspects (Zabriel) in forming a viable counter-wagon. And there it convienently sits helping to insure a Non-Town result of No Lynch occurs.

Scumtastic and pretty damn indicative that mykonian is scum with you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The obvious lynch for today is obvious -

Zabriel needs 4 more votes until he takes his rightful position in the noose!

@Acosmist / AngryP / pidgey / Peregrine / Mastin / KK / jasonT - VOTE ZAB FOR GREAT JUSTICE AND SEXY MAFIA HANGINGS

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm getting the idea that you are bussing zab here and making the connection for me to get direct profit. And I really don't like it.

Well funny that you think Zab is scum two different ways (via being scum yesterday and relationally today) but aren't trying to hang him.

If you thought this and really believed all the "MoI is doing nothing to influence anyone" crap you were pedaling yesterday you would be voting to lynch scum Zab and preparing to try to hang me tomorrow.

But you aren't. Instead you are throwing this distancing crap down in hopes once Zab hangs as obv-scum you can cling to mastin's skirt and be saved from the rope that you so desperately deserve.

/inb4re "I'll vote MoI first then" from obv-partner Mykonian.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey Mastin you need to explain WTF your vote never made it to Zabriel before you went V/LA at deadline despite the fact that he was your "Number 1".

Now not later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Basically, I feel as if it would have gone through had zabriel actually been town.

So you don't think Zab is Town ... and you are voting KK.

Yeah, putting you on ignore / lynch once we've gone through Zab / Myk / Nero for as long as I'm alive.

FOUR MORE ZABRIEL VOTES ASAP

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nope.jpg

Deadline was in hours. Yates wasn't getting lynched.

So you are either Fail or Scum.

Vote Zabriel and go sit in the corner while the adults get stuff done.

THREE MORE ZAB VOTES AND WE LYNCH ANOTHER SCUM

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll vote MoI first then

vote MoI

Happy to oblige.

Of course you will. You are obvious scum. Have been since I replaced in.

Too bad people listened to Mastin's drivel and didn't follow my lead in lynching you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eventually.

Tempting as it may be, I have no intention of a quicklynch today. My vote will most likely be going there, but there's no reason for it to be there right now. Zabriel's under plenty enough pressure. I intend to apply pressure elsewhere in the mean time.

Nope. Nothing to be gained from elongating the day. Town

WILL NOT

have any more information roles and the Doc is dead. Yesterday's fail of a lynch on Zab provides us with all the relational and vote-count analysis material we need with his Mafia flip.

Your intentions to apply 'pressure' elsewhere don't matter to me one iota. Your fail play caused scum to escape lynch yesterday and I'm not about to let you derail it again with your stupidity / scum play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Zabriel needs 3 more votes until he takes his rightful position in the noose!

@Acosmist / AngryP / pidgey / Peregrine / jasonT - VOTE ZAB FOR GREAT JUSTICE AND SEXY MAFIA HANGINGS

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you had a claim that would save you it would have happened yesterday.

Dingle dangle scumbag.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well you are already voting obv-scum Zabriel so it's good.

While you are hear encourage the other Town to help get this done so some of your disconnect time can be spent in Night

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kise gets it!

^5

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Read on Yates?

P-edit (so many pedits): I think Zab should claim next post. Its obvious thats where today is headed.

People I want to lynch atm in rough order from "Oh god yes!" to "Ok": Yates, Kublai Khan, Mykonian, Nero Cain.

Yates is a lazy and terrible player. That's my read on him. If I had to guess I would say Town simply because he was the last gasp desperation attempt to derail the Zab lynch yesterday. Frankly I think a Zab scum flip will make VCA analysis and mining relational tells pretty powerful given how

Your "I want to lynch list" order is frankly terrible given how yesterday played out if you believe Zab is scum BTW. Just an FYI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

TWO MORE VOTES FOR ZABRIEL

[MagnaofIllusion]

-VCA. I have it in my QT. I want the chance to analyze it and post trends from it.
-Followthrough. VCA shows potential trends worth investigating, but investigating the trends tends to work better if the topic's actually open.
-Pressure. Zabriel's one scum, sure. Let's go with that. But there's more than one scum in the game, and I intend to weave them out.
-Re-readthrough. I am one of the only players on the site who is actually insane enough to try, but if you guys DON'T speedlynch, then I'll have the time to read all 141 pages.
-Isos. Though the re-readthrough will be more helpful overall, Isos are like VCA, showing a potential trend I might have missed. On the seven key players, six of them I need a better read on.
-Cases. I asked before night yesterday for people to prepare cases on jason arguing one way or the other. Did anyone actually follow through? If so, they need to post 'em. If not, they should do so during the day...not during the night.

1. I don't care about your VCA personally. I don't trust your judgement at this point.
2. Followthrough can happen tomorrow once we actually have the scum flip and another confirmed Town to help nail down those trends.
3. We aren't pressuing alternate players today.

DOING SO IS STUPID AN INVITES SCUM A CHANCE TO SWING A MISLYNCH WHEN ONE OF YOUR SUSPECTS IS INVARIABLY WRONG (OR YOU ARE SCUM TRYING HOPING TO GET ZAB OFF THE NOOSE).

4. You can re-readthrough during Night if you wish. Hell you even have a way to share your thoughts with "Town" Nero.
5. Same with ISOs.
6. I don't care what you want on that end. Your stupidity / scum play let Zab escape yesterday. You don't get indulged for that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dammit, MoI, stop being such a stubborn ass.

No. You got reasonable MoI yesterday and you

FUCKED UP THE LYNCH ON SCUM.

So today you get MoI who gets things done. Don't like it? I don't care.

[MagnaofIllusion]

His wagon not going through is not at all a scumtell.

Yes it is. If Zab was Town then both scum and Town had every reason to make sure his wagon happened yesterday at deadline. So the fact that it didn't happen indicates one of those groups (scum) had a motive to not vote him at deadline. Because no-one hammering him at deadline would be held accountable for a "bad lynch".

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP - Especially if Yates is scum as you say. Otherwise scum risked his wagon getting swung as opposed to Zab's.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok - I'm checking out until Zabriel is lynched. The whole "we need time to pressure people" argument is a load of crap given no-one is going to actually feel the slightest bit of pressure since Zabriel is getting lynched. It's a dumb argument meant at best to pointlessly word-masterbate in thread which increases the already long game length needlessly (since we need actual Mod confirmation of Zab to do any solid analysis anyway) and at worst scum hoping a longer day will allow some Town player to screw up and draw rope over Obv-scum Zab.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok MoI, who will YOU be suspecting if Zab flips town?

Frankly I'd lynch you. Because your "Oh, let's lynch someone else" crap today when it makes NO SENSE to do otherwise looks like someone who knows he will flip scum and is positioning himself for "Told you So" tomorrow.

Where are the rest of the Zab votes at?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pokes his head in the thread ...

Is obv-scum Zab not yet dead? I see not. Carry on then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay, I think I understand messenger a little better now, which is making Kise's insistence that Messenger is scum a little weird to me.

VOTE: MoI

Lol cheeky scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The next person who says “Oh Mykonian is scummy but used his role in a Pro-Town way he must be Town” and doesn’t suspect Nero for how he handled his role is going to get an Internet Wedgie.

I’m also very curious as to why Yates is getting all the “YOU ARE SCUM FOR NOT MOVING YOUR VOTE TO A VIABLE WAGON AND THUS ZAB DIDN’T GET LYNCHED” while no-one aside from me is blinking at Mastin’s more blatant lack of vote movement at deadline.

--

As a scum role, it's kind of pointless, except to create WIFOM. As a scum role, it seems wiser to not use it at all.

No actually this isn’t true at all. A Scum Messenger doesn’t know that a Town Neighborizor is in the game until it is claimed. Thus using the Role to “Look Pro-Town” is exactly the motivation for using it.

--

I believe nero to be town, so such discussion wouldn't lead to anything and it would detract from real scumhunting.

Yeah, scum. He can be noosed after Zab.

--

(Gee, this'd be a great time for a dayvig, now, wouldn't it, MoI? )

Nope. It would have been great to not be derp and actually lynch yesterday so today would be about mining Zab’s scum flip for relational tells and VCA. So again – your play yesterday was terrible if you are Town and you have lost any leverage you might have had.

--

AngryP gets

a lecture

his own section so I can properly

yell at him

discuss why I disagree with him. Skip down if you don’t care about it …

MoI, why is Yates not vote-worthy? Hes lurking heavily and his content is fairly comparable to Zab's actually.

I disagree with this on pretty much every level.

First let’s compare raw post count – Yates at 229 versus Zabriel at 70 (which is 30 some odd less than the Mod himself). While post-count doesn’t signify everything on activity (you can certainly have half the posts of another poster with double the content if your posts are content filled) in this case it is pretty terrible to suggest Yates is ‘lurking’ anywhere near the scale that Zab has.

Now let’s address the “Yates content is similar to Zab’s” angle – I disagree completely. Read their ISOs side by side and tell me that Yates doesn’t have significantly better “game releveant content”. If you want to tell me that I’m going to have to laugh at you. While Yates isn’t a strong player his ISO has actual opinions about players being scummy each Day. Meanwhile Zab’s ISO is filled with more flavor and set-up specualation fluff than assessments about the alignment of other players.

The rest of your objections to Zab as scum read to me as borderline White Knighting (that a certain post doesn’t come from scum or that he was “genuine” Day 1). Enough so that as I said earlier – he actually is Town and you are number 1 on my suspect list.

Notice, for example, that Peregrine at Post 3580 quite nicely gave Zab a Vote count for him to color / format as he chooses to point out scum. Does Zab, who is supposedly Vanilla Town who IS getting lynched today, take him up on it to provide reads? Nope.

FWIW, ISO him here. He flipped scum that game. Tell me that is the same Zab. Its not much but I think his posting is notably different here.

What exactly am I supposed to see in that ISO that is supposed to change my mind? Because I see evidence of lurking (post 572 “I need to stop neglecting this game”), a bunch of wishy-washy reads, and low content in what looks like a pretty clear active lurking style. Which I see as pretty consistent with his play here.

THINK ABOUT IT. Zab is relatively new. Scum obviously have fake claims. If Zab is scum, he knows that. Zab is flat out pretending they don't. I cannot see him saying that as scum. Unless he is scum and trying to subtly drop a towntell by assuming something that is wrong and is generally against site etiquette. He would have to be aware that what he was saying was ridiculous and then still say it anyways on the hope someone would realize Occams razor suggests that he is town and actually DOESN'T know that fake-claims are incredibly common.. Thats unlikely given that his play really isn't a beacon of originality.

Nope. That’s actually the exact wrong conclusion to take. It is actually a fairly viable scum-tell for newer players to make an “Oops statement” that shows they aren’t scum because they don’t understand the set-up or some facet of the game. Examples –

Maruchan in Zom Com Mafia dropping the “Oh, what is daytalk?” post. He was Mafia and here’s the relevant clip from a scum role Pm

Meeting room: You may speak in the Mafia QT at any time.

Umbrage’s Jungle Republic where Neil1113 posts pretending to not understand the Open Setup (thus showing he didn’t have inside knowledge and is thus Town). He was Mafia. This game actually is the one that made me a believer in this as a tell as I argued with TwistedSpoon about Neil over this very point. Twisted thought he was scum. I did not.

So your “It’s WIFOM but Scum wouldn’t do that” is really not sensible.

Its that you had a chance to move to Zab yesterday but opted to keep sitting on Jason.

Well aside from Confirmation Bias / Scum pushing the best counter to Zab they can find why is Yates the only person from this quote you have an issue with on the “Not moving vote” end?

Yates - 3 (mastin2,

zabriel,

mykonian)
AngryPidgeon - 3 (Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
jasonT1981 - 1 (

Yates

)

[MagnaofIllusion]

We have ONE, FUCKING, SCUM FLIP, ONE.

I sympathize Kise but we've actually had two - Tammy and AV.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You didn't say much about who or what you suspect anyway. Not surprising none of your scumreads gets lynched.

Irony thy name is Mykonian ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Re My Zab read: :/ Where was this crap yesterday when I was calling him town. And D1.

Well frankly I haven't been paying too much attention to correcting you on your poor logic because I had bigger fist to fry.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unlike most players, I actually listen to lynched town, so if you're town, that info won't go to waste.

Funny that you have absolutely no fears about being the Nightkill ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't vote me AP. That would be bad of you. If you're going to call me town but still vote me tomorrow in the name of preventing another no lynch (which happens on the 26th if we use the whole day), you are nowhere near as town as I thought and we both deserve to go down. Also, how worried are you about dying tonight AP? I'm thinking that if I go down today Mafia is going to choose a wtf target that doesn't help us with much of anything. Being worried about night kills is town, but talking about being worried about them just kind of comes off as posturing.

Kise: In my readback I didn't get Kise-town out of AP. I got "Kise not found". You weren't on his list of people he'd like to lynch. I'd like him to comment with current thoughts about you that I can read and think about before I decide if I want to stay here or join AP and Aco over on the Yates wagon. I'm interested in his thoughts because he's opposed to my lynch and thus more likely to actually have good thoughts about who is likely to be scum since he's not busy chasing after the friendly giant.

PEdit: Trying to start a panic there MoI? If he'd mentioned the possibility of being NKed you'd have said he was posturing and needed to go tomorrow.

I'm summarize what this post represents in the paragraphs shown.

1st Paragraph - Appeal to Fear "If you vote for me you are terrible and deserve to die for voting for a Town read" for AngryP.

2nd Paragraph - Hey look I did a read-back despite not doing jack-crap all game. I'm SOOOO Town don't lynch me.

3rd Paragraph (really a sentence but keeping theme) - Trolololol I don't read so I'm just going to throw mud. If you were actually reading the game for content Zab you would have noticed Day 2 that Mastin was spouting off that he was going to be Nightkilled as if it was a certainty since he was SOOO correct. I'm calling him on the obvious shift. Thanks for

scumming it up more

playing!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fair enough on point three.

I didn't read the posts in question. I have little recollection of Day 2

, as it was approximately a billion pages ago. Did he mention it on Day 3 or 4? Did you harass him for it then?

The bolded is a you problem. That can be solved with rope.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Confirming roles =/= confirming alignment.

Scum PGO? Are you really selling that as a viable role in a game where Town has (at least any evidence of) a killing role?

You have to know better than this KK. Either he is what he claimed (Town PGO) or he lied about his role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP -

Scum PGO? Are you really selling that as a viable role in a game where Town has (at least any evidence of)

no

killing role?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Myk- what happened with me being the most obvious of scums and you being on my ass for literally no reasons i can remember besides... no reason i can remember?

This ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - LA from today at 4pm until December 26th for family weekend and holiday duties.

Will have phone access but don't expect large posts.

Night had best be completed by the time I return.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bit busy juggling other games at the moment, though I'll be reading 'til a hammer comes. ("What? You said you'd hammer!" I'm a goldfish. I changed my mind. )

Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Seriously I recant my "not likely to be Town" read on Mastin.

He's scum.