Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[MaguaofIllusion]

VOTE: Tierce

Questions –

DDD

– why did you choose to sheep Spyrex as opposed to Glork?

Spyrex

– given the scum wincon why should Post 139 not be met with immediate rope?

Glork

– why would you bother to care who Dramonic wants you to sheep?

Singersinger and Oversoul

– with the thread being open less than 24 hours and some people not active on weekends regularly why are both of you worried about why some players have yet to post?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Tierce's complete and utter confusion over flavor / win conditions is very likely genuine, as I'd expect her to tighten up the flavor screws before the game started if she were scum. Please move your vote somewhere more useful. Hell, I'd rather it be on me than Tierce at this point.

Well I read all 10 pages over an hour period while taking notes. With that in mind ... can you link me to the post where Tierce shows ignorance of the Wincon? I have little time to dredge her ISO at the current time. Thanks!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Ok you people are insisting on making this thread 100 pages Day 1. I can tell. Dear god …

--

So I’ve done my complete read-through and posted my notes to our Hydra QT. I’ll give you highlights of what we agree on at this early stage.

We both agree that Gamma and Duplicity are pretty obv-Town. We also agree that Tierce doesn’t seem obv-Town when that’s supposedly her hallmark in how she plays the game.

And I cannot personally stress enough how stupid Tierce’s claim was. Congratulations that’s a Empking level move right there if you are Town.

But that aside Glork’s point about her ‘Town confusion’ on the Scum wincon is enough to give take her off our acceptable lynches at the moment.

UNVOTE: Tierce
VOTE: Spyrex

--

People this head thinks are good votes at this stage –

Spyrex

– he gets his own post after this one to keep things clear since people tend to give him the “I like SpySpy he’s totes Town” shield early on in games.

Magister Ludi

– 100% gut on my part. I’ve played with MagisterLudi Town before and this doesn’t come close to my expectations. And I think his reasoning for voting is pretty bad. Take Post 240 where he goes after Alchemist for “not sharing reasoning” despite turning over a new leaf. It doesn’t track given the new leaf Alchemist specifically claimed to turn over was not being clear at all … it had all together everything to do with him NOT spamming the thread like a moron.

Singersinger

– the play here has just been terrible. A large bunch of quotes for comment later then no comment with “I don’t like Mafia right now” comments? Calling us the most obvious scum along with Spyrex yet keeping a vote parked on Tammy? Later ‘forgetting’ how I’m scum (see Post 464)? I am just not seeing any Town in her play.

Not sure where Magua stands on this other than knowing he doesn’t think any of the above are Town.

--

Questions / Comments for the moment

–

@Tammy

– why did my post not bear discussion until you finally mentioned it. Also … are you suggesting that we’re giving out ‘inside information’ by showing we have know the scum Wincon despite it being mentioned by the Mod. I’d like you to be clear on that.

@LLD

– why don’t you discuss Singer’s ‘Calling Tammy Town while voting her’ stance in light of your stance on UN.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So Spyrex my man … let’s lay things out on the table …

Your Tammy push this game smells of Spyrex scum. It’s actually pretty damn reminiscent of how you played early in ooba’s ASOFAI game … you found something that looks like it can be exploited (in that game it was my calling for sure scum on the early wagon, here it is Tammy’s general playstyle) and is unpopular and running at it full bore. Your early ISO screams this …every post is designed to express how Tammy’s spunk is scummy and her reaction to you is scummy.

And it is accomplished with a helping heaping of “Spyrex Language” obscure-o-matic. Now you always do tend to play the “Let’s play fast and loose with the English language” game regardless of alignment. That said you take it to a new level when scum. Just like in Victorian Vampire Mafia where you were all “Dingle, dangle” all the time. The fact that we specifically have UN saying “ I have no idea what you are saying” indicates you’ve upped the ante on that play.

But what sealed it for me is Post 253. For the audience at home let’s revisit the reason for that post.

At Post 239 I asked SpySpy why he didn’t need instant rope for Post 139. I didn’t specifiy why he needed to hang for it … just that he was voteworthy.

And we get the following response –

Ok its time for far more words about this subject than they deserve.

Lets assume that its a unified scumgroup AND that is their wincon. Hell we will make it easier and assume there is no third parties or even vigs. 1 kill a round.

How many scum would you expect? 6-7?

If thats the case there is absolutely no way that list is less than 11 at minimum. Further, that list is going to contain some seeerious business thats gonna HAVE to be taken out via kill and not pray for a mislynch.

Third parties? Vigs? That number is going to go up.

If its AT something like 11? Well then I would bank on the town having enough power to balance for missing multiple theoretical days.

THAT SAID:

Even if it WERE the case I flat out deny the floating background theory that this is a scum move tryin to make it easy - especially by both of them. D1 in a setup like this its tantamount to death in a myriad of ways tryin to throw out the seeker claim.

I think they are both town but I will unequivocally say that there is no chance in hell both of them are scum that possess that wincon. No way.

My statement still stands and it will stand forever: saying they are looking for someone doesn't bother me. I wish that if that was the route they were going for (in all scenarios in which they're assuming who they are looking for isn't ALSO looking for them) they'd have either kept quiet OR

just rolled the hard eight and said who it was.

The middle ground doesn't help near as well.

On a related note to that its a little personal reflection time: I am not good at scum. That little icon I have? Its because I could sit and just fuel the fires of paranoia very, very similar to this wincon business we're seeing already. I'm absolutely waiting with baited breath for the inevitable "But blahblah claimed DEATHMACHINE ENDER OF WORLDS I BET SCUM BE LOOKIN FER HIM"

Firstly this is “hey, I’m going to throw down some mindless Set-up talk and hope that addresses the problem”. Yes, that’s just a move to say “Let’s not discuss this” because the list is too big blah blah blah.

Secondly the little bit at the end that I bolded is VERY telling. Not a single vote and you are already defending your play with “I’m so terrible at scum, ignore this Scummie that shows I am good at at” is terrible. Alchemist put it best when he said “I can smell your fear”.

But the italicized is the damning things here. Name claiming is VERY, VERY stupid in the set-up. Magua and I pre-game discussed that very thing when he noted the Scum Wincon. He went so far to suggest that someone at L-1 claiming should only claim their roles (Cop, Vig, etc) and not their name. Scum clearly have a list of targets (and by this we both conclude character names) that must be eliminated to win. As Magua put it “Anyone suggesting mass-claiming should be met with HOT DEATH” in not so many words.

And in Post 139 you did something that doesn't benefit Town but does benefit Scum …

Ehh this claiming doesn't bother me in the intrinsic sense. Although if they're gonna go for it I'd almost rather them go whole hog.

You said “Meh I’d rather have them full out claim names (or who they are looking for) than soft-claim”. And I agree that the soft-claiming isn’t doing anyone favors but full bore claiming “I’m looking for X” is terrible.

Scum have the full complement of names they need to kill. Player X going “Hey I’m looking for Flavor Guy 1”. That tells scum either that by looking for Flavor Guy 1 that said player is likely a good target (he’s not looking for someone from our list) or not. It narrows down their target base each time it happens.

Encouraging ANY level of claiming on that end is damn scummy.

So we have that. Plus Post 415 where you say –

Singer's Magua + SpyreX scumteam combo is suspect because on top of the half wrong at best I cant even SEE the pretend connection in his one whopping post.

Is pretty bad a Singer, albeit scummy as heck so far, never said “these players are partners”. Her statement was one of “these are my top two suspects”. And we all know that two players can be independently scummy and until you have flips just saying “Hmmm, I can’t suspect Spryex and Maguaofillusion because they don’t make sense as partners” is hogwash.

I have no illusions that you are the lynch today. Too many people are willing to give you a pass because, well, they like you. But for the moment you can have my vote.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Tierce:

$10 is it's related to activity; the less activity, the faster the number goes up, when the number hits a target, bad things happen. The inverse of the battery mechanic in every other Vi game.

That being said, you're not dumb, you're not ignorant of Vi's other games, I can't believe it would take you more than 20 seconds to come up with this theory. Instead it's all, "WHATCANITBE?!?!?!" I very much agree with Oversoul that this seems exactly like you being all, "Look how ignorant of the setup I am, that's a towntell!"

@Toasty:

As hypocritical as this is considering who I'm hydra'ing with, those quote stripe walls, they won't get read (by me, at least).

@Alchemist:

Here's the thing. My desire to lynch Glork D1 is low because if he's town, he'll die N1. It's a lot like Magna. Come back and visit him if he's alive D3 or D4.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Alchemist:

Here's the thing. My desire to lynch Glork D1 is low because if he's town, he'll die N1. It's a lot like Magna. Come back and visit him if he's alive D3 or D4.

Efffff Ohhhhh Essssss

Really getting tired of the "if Glork doesn't die N1 he's scum" arguments.

I didn't die before N3 in MLP Mafia.
I didn't die until like D6 in WINvitational.
I didn't die until N3 in Blood Bowl.
I didn't die at all in League.

Yawn.

Yawn yawn yawn. Kill Glork N1 is old hat. Glork gets protected enough (League, Blood Bowl) to discourage scum killing me.

Yeah, so, that's not what I said, but it's very interesting that you took it that way.

In fact, now that you took it that way, it reads to me as pre-planned defensive posturing on your end -- that you want to make sure to get this out there D1 instead of having to bring it up D3/D4.

Next person who says I'm scum for not dying early is eating a fucking bullet. I promise you.

Well, since you put it that way, I'll go ahead and say it: if Glork doesn't die N1, he's scum.

Go.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hi guys, this is called blind wagoning. It's..it won a few mafia games a few years back, but not by this dude.

GreyICE, you are just...just woeful. Unvote, Vote: GreyICE. For being scum by defending this "vote".

Worst post yet this game. In a game with Uberninja ...

Could you be any more blatant that this is personality driven and not actual scumhunting?

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoI

Besides Spyre, if you wanted to/could, who would you dayvig?

Wyrd.

please explain for those of us who haven't played in another vi game

Vi's games don't have a deadline. They have a battery. This is tied to the activity of the game; Day starts at 100%, battery goes down in the inverse of the activity in the thread (little activity => battery goes down a lot, a lot of activity => battery goes down a little). Vi claims that this is due to sooper sekret calculations, but I think he just wings it most of the time.

In most games, if the battery hits 0%, the Day ends with a no lynch, like a deadline in any other game. Given that Days in this game don't have deadlines (Endless War), it seems likely that this is the replacement mechanic to keep Town from just sitting on its ass for days at a time -- that is, its the motivator to lynch in a reasonable amount of time.

Of particular note is that note that Vi put into Endless War ("no advantage in lynching under 48 hours") and the fact that the number didn't increment until 48 hours had passed.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Preview Edit

- Ninjaed by myself. Lulz.

@Glork

– The Crown of Burden of Proficiency and it’s bastard cousin ‘Why Aren’t You Dead” are never going away. I thought by now you would have at least made peace with them. Your reaction could be quite properly classified as ‘over’.

Implosion can probably hang for Post 545 at some point. Twenty some pages of content and this is his ONLY commentary? Nope.jpg

VOTE: MagisterLudi

--

@Spyrex

– Post 540 is a kick. Yes, I see you not bothering to address your terribly scummy push on Tammy or your terribad response to Singer. And your stance that “It’s OK to claim names as long as you are doing it in such and such a manner” is still either scummy or stupid. Which is it?

Your move :smarm:

Because we know use of smarm is a scum-tell, right SpySpy? That’s the total tentpole of your Tammy push.

And your Post 615 is such lovely empty buddying to Glork! Good work there.

--

Duplicity, Magna/Magua, Glork, what's the justice wagons?

I think Duplicity covered this pretty well. Except strike LLD from that list for the moment.

--

Hmm. Used to MoI giving way more reasons than gut (and yes, I know its a hydra). That being said, which head is talking here? MoI's spyreX questions are good but I think Spy responded in a town way

So Toasty … what exactly is the point of the question about which head is which when you’ve already reacted a conclusion on Spyrex.

--

I've taken a lot of flak as town for defending weak players, I've decided to try and do away with some of it due to recent events, and I wanted to get it out of the way and moving on

Um, whut?

1. Part of this statement is explicitly leaving out elements of truth about said defense. Enough said.
2. So you’ve gotten flak for defending weak players as Town and your solution is to post a big “IMMA GONNA DO THIS” post to stave off the flak you’d get from not defending weak players? Does not compute … and really does not work with your “My strength is being obv-Town like hito” meta I’ve seen espoused in the past.

--

Besides Spyre, if you wanted to/could, who would you dayvig?

MagisterLudi or Singersinger from this head.

[MaguaofIllusion]

LOL LOOK AT ME I'M GOING TO USE A DAYVIG ON A PLAYER D1 THAT DOES NOT HAVE A WAGON ON THEM INSTEAD OF USING IT TO GIVE TOWN A SECOND LYNCH

Stupid use of any Vig power. Giving it to Town as a 'second lynch' only assures scum have some ability to manipuate the target. Town Vig who uses their power as they see fit (regardless of how Derp) guarantee they are 100% Town driven results.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Yo MoI

good to know that the entirety of what you want to comment re: a dayvig is the fact that the vigged person has a different view on theory than you

really incredibly useful comment when someone is about to flip

you should probably eat rope too

but not mind me

at this stage it's just mindless :RAGE:

Well why we are on the subject ... what exactly should I be commenting on that I'm not?

1. That you are about to flip? Well given that Fake Dayvigs are more common than actual Dayvigs I'm not in the "100% sold this is actually happening" camp. Once Vi posts I can make informed commentary about the implication of the move / your flip.
2. That Oversoul made a pretty stupid choice if his ability is real? That's pretty given since I already said I would have shot Spyrex, Magister or Singer as a Dayvig myself.
3. That you are still spamming with your rage?

Did you miss my most recent post today that comments on all sorts of players and their alignment?

I'm glad your stance is "You should die because you disagree with my stance on stupid use of Dayvigs".

[MaguaofIllusion]

Fate came into this game and saw me acting the way I said I would. And he mentioned it. This is the important bit. It would be very easy for Fatescum to ignore our previous conversation altogether and make up some bullshit read; goodness knows Fatescum does that. Instead, he was actually trying to figure me out. It's an awesome sign that he is protown.

So wait.

You had a conversation (in general Mafia 'I need advice on how to proceed' terms) with Fate about "how should I do things as Town".

And you come into the thread and present in full brash effect exactly what you discussed.

Setting aside the "Tierce-scum could certainly do that to manipulate Fate-Town" angle as it is rather irrelevant at this stage given my reads ... what would you expect hypo-Fate-scum to do other than what he did?

If he ignores the conversation / creates a bullshit read (regardless of what said read is) Town-Tierce is going to take notice of that fact.

Hypo-Scum-Fate has every reason to refer to said conversation in drawing a read on you in that scenario. Because doing otherwise tips you to his alignment. And doing it allows hypo-Fate to buddy up to you pretty solidly.

Yeah, I get you are all buddyfied with Nuwen and desperately want to play with her / get adulation from her. That fact shouldn't cloud "Logical Obv-Town Tierce" from engaging her logic centers and thinking things through.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoI: I just like to know who I'm talking to. If you are doing the whole "united post" thing, then thats fine, but if the two of you have separate opinions I'd like to know.

Why?

(More verbose: Why does it matter?)

Tierce whats your read on magnamagua? I don't like the one post of theirs I see already.

You need approval to vote us?

I give you approval to vote us.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I know that MoI has a tendency to argue just to argue even as town and it grinds my gears

hey look ... fucking bullshit.

It gets a double plus bullshit stance as we have not a single completed game where Town Magna attacked Town Tierce that you can point to as evidence. Unless you've got an alt running around you'd like to share with the class.

So Tierce .. if you are obv-Town frustrated by being vigged why the fucking lying?

Also - Kats is looking for public support to call me scum. How unshockingly usual. Kats why are you fishing for support? Don't have the balls to come at me directly?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Btw, which MoI head is present at the moment?

Both of us. Your point?

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Tierce/Glork:

Not to defend Oversoul, but I'll defend Oversoul: Oversoul's "y'all were happier when Tierce was dying" post reads an awful lot like, "When y'all thought Tierce was going to die, you were calling me obvtown, now that she's not dying you're calling for my head."

Particularly to Glork, Oversoul's gambit may have outted Tierce's role, but it didn't out yours. You outted your role.

On the other hand, pretty certain that both Glork and Tierce are both town now, so, at least it wasn't a total waste from where I sit.

I like Toasty's and Regfan's take on Oversoul as well, makes me feel better about those slots.

Oh, need to sign my posts now.

- Faraday

[MaguaofIllusion]

Other head's not here right now, so it's just me. For convenience, note that I'm signing my posts.

Also, I'm not suggesting anything. I don't even know what you're asking me. I asked a very straight forward question. "Please explain why you seem so certain of the scum wincon." How do you interpret it as being anything other than me wondering how you seem certain of something that doesn't seem so certain to me?

Your question: Why are you so certain of the scum wincon.
Our response: Because the scum wincon is in the very first post of this thread.

Let's see, you have other stuff about us not scumhunting or not. Mmmm. You carry on with that; let

us

someone else know how that's going for you.

And MoI as scum bullshits the hell out of people, and the way that he's twisted some words and tried to make people look bad for what they've said

To be entirely fair, MoI-head does this regardless of alignment.

I don't know about Magua, I've only seen him as town.

To be entirely fair, Magua-head has never been scum, a record that remains unbroken to this day.

Would STILL lynch MoI with no reservations whatsoever.

[Later:] I'd be down for an MoI lynch still. Something rubs me wrong about that slot, but I can't place my finger on it quite yet.

I realize the first one was now like 8 pages back, but the second one was just the last page, so you get our general clause: if you think we're scum, you should vote us.

(If you think we're supremely annoying and just want to see us die regardless of our alignment, eh, you can get slapped in the face with a fish.)

(Oh, you do vote us. Hooray.)

I also think that Katsuki is town. Kats doesn't like playing scum. I really, really don't think he'd start playing after Vi had already started looking for a replacement if he had received a scum role PM.

So, curious about this. I've seen Katsuki replace out a lot, and to the very best of my recollection, Katsuki-replacing-out has always been town. I have not ever seen Katsuki replace out as scum. So:

@Katsuki/@Nikanor:

Can you show me a game where Katsuki replaced out as scum?

(Snap, I see that Tierce beat me to the punch on this one.)

Goofbash, which Nikanor references in 975, doesn't correlate; face-to-face is not forum.

@GreyICE:

Katsuki is a prime vig candidate, not a prime lynch candidate, for precisely the reasons you outline for lynching him: no content. No connections. Even if he's scum, it's not a useful lynch.

Maybe this is their standard behavoir but I really can't see why they would sign their games as Faraday other than to cause more confusion.

You were in Good v Evil. We saw you there. Fail to see how you'd say something like this having been there.

(Snap, I see that Tierce beat me to the punch on this one as well. I'm still leaving it.)

@Shmugen:

There is no way, no how, that singersigner-scum comes into this game with those posts that she did. They have derptown written all over them. The posts are terrible, but they are not scum.

Unlikely to be one scum team

Discuss.

To the best of my knowledge, Vi does not do multiball. Maybe an SK, but not multiple scum teams. Closest is MoHO/MoCO where you had two divided teams that won together.

Let's see. Don't want to scumhunt and break Tammy's read, but now that other head's not here, I get to make the lists.

I'll reiterate some reads.

- dramonic: Very much feeling like Katsuki in terms of content-posting-value. Useless content. Do not want him lynched, want him vigged. Don't want him vigged as much as Katsuki, though.

- Glork: Town. Not willing to vote.

- GreyICE: He makes us laugh. Could be scum, could be town (lulzdistancing). Not particularly willing to vote him at the moment simply because he posts and is understandable and coherent. Don't like his "lulzlynchKatsuki" push, but other than that he's an ok guy, not afraid of anything.

- Katsuki: Don't believe Nikanor's "Katsuki hates being scum" meta. Willing to be disproven. Do not think Katsuki should be lynched. Highly think Katsuki should be vigged. Not willing to vote.

- Magister Ludi: Scum, totalling willing to vote. Wyrd being a partner on our wagon is very meh, because we do not like Wyrd.

- Oversoul: A+ poster, would read again. If he's town, he's going to die because he made himself a target to the scum. This is grand news, really, because Lord knows, better him than us. Not willing to vote.

- singersigner: Town. Not willing to vote.

- SpyreX: Scum, totalling willing to vote.

- Tammy: She's not playing like she did in Good v Evil or in NY 145. NY 145 is a particularly interesting case because

I

some other person who is certainly not me was able to ascertain a townread on her within a few pages, and was able to do this in Good v Evil (though it took longer). Here, not feeling any of the things that made

me

this other person think Tammy-town thoughts.

- Tierce: Tierce is scum if, and only if, Oversoul is scum partner, and I do not believe that Oversoul is a scum partner. Not willing to vote.

- Wyrd: See dramonic.

- Meh, a bunch of other people that we're probably willing to vote.

It's interesting that I'm calling...mmmm...pretty much all the people voting us town. Oh, wait, not calling Tammy town.

-Shift

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI, concerning dram, the whole "dont want him lynched want him vigged" thing is a total cop-out, man.

Yes, it is a cop out, because with the content posted it's literally impossible for me to tell if he's town or scum. This is problematic. But by God, if terrible contentless posts actually meant someone was scum, you'd have games where half the players would be scum. It is not something to lynch over. It's a bad lynch for the exact same reason Katsuki is a bad lynch: you get no info out of it even if they are scum.

As far as setup: Pretty goddamn sure that there's one scumteam. Possible SK[1]. Scumteam may be split into different groups (factions, or whatever) with some mechanic to identify the other scum, but have a united winning condition.

Double checked Vi's modding history. So, he did run a multiball game. Back in 2009 (Border of Touhou and Mafia). Yeah, definitely with Glork on this one.

[1] This does not make multiball.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Didn't sign my post. Sorry. The above post is mine.

-Mr. Flay

[MaguaofIllusion]

What exactly have you done?

I prefer to categorize our action by things we haven't done, such as: We've not yet had to apologize profusely for our play.

<_<
>_>

Don't get the point you're trying to make with our take on you. We would prefer that you get NK'ed over us. That'd be grand. Nothing personal.

Why do you have Wyrd and Magister Ludi as possible scumbuddies?

We don't. We have them as two people that we don't like, each of whom could independently be scum. The only relation-tells we have are, "If X flips scum, Y is much more likely to flip scum," (ie, if you flip scum, the chance that Tierce is scum and that this was all some cooked up llama drama rises dramatically), but that's quite distinct from saying you *are* scum partners, 'cause we don't think you are, or that we want either of you lynched over that, because we don't.

[MaguaofIllusion]

What about her original posts changed from ‘Scum worthy of a vote’ to ‘No way no how scum’. I get that her recent posts (Last 3ish or so) have come across as somewhat townish and have weakened my scum read of her but that’s not what you’ve said.

Nothing changed about her posts. This head believes bad play tends to be town. Other head doesn't (lolhydradissonance). This head feels a certain need to re-evaluate this stance given Cooldog in Good v Evil, but in the meantime, I maintain that scum do not enter into a game with "Vote: Tammy" (298) followed up with, "Guys, Tammy is totes town" (361). From singersigner-scum, particularly, I would not expect such a blatantly scummy statement like, "I've got al ist of people I want to lynch regardless of their alignment." It's just *asking* for trouble and attention.

Didn't say you weren't scumhunting. I said you weren't really scumhunting. There's a difference. You lack a certain depth in your scumhunting that makes you look genuine, in addition to a real engagement with the game that makes me read you as scum. Don't think you can intimidate me or beat around the bush with this. I mean, at least you're not engaging in OMGU *looks at bottom of post* oh wait...silly me you are.

But, seriously, take a look at your reads list. What the hell is that? It's completely superficial, you're making cursory statements about people that don't delve into anything they've said or done. It's superficial. It's mechanical. It's scumposting. And, since you devolve into meta crap below...I know you can do better.

Browbeating and intimidation is the domain of the other head. This head has free candy. And puppies. You just need to come into this van here.

Oh, you discovered my cleverly set up attack on you, so I could very subtly maneuver our vote onto you and secure your lynch. Well, piss and vinegar. Guess we'll have to think of something else.

More meta crap? Seriously people. My play style is not completely static and you need a larger sample size than 2 games to meta me from. Regfan can do it because we've played several games together and he's actually seen me play as scum and knows the damn difference. I can pretty much guarantee you that I have not played exactly the same in any two games as my play is largely dependent on my mood, my environment, other players and my certainty of my reads. The only thing you can be sure of is that I'll ask a bunch of questions, be active, write walls, and throw a temper tantrum or two.

Meta is the only reliable scumhunting tool.

I don't care about your play style being static. I do care about certain things that I believe I can read from your playstyle. I don't care about telling you about these things, because that would defeat the purpose. Cruel world, and all.

You may wish to give me links to games where you were scum, if you think it will prove your point. I may read them.

I'm rather surprised you want to compare Good and Evil to NY 146 anyway. Not sure how they do compare as one I was a late replacement into a slot widely considered to be a SK in NY146, so my approach to the game and attitude is going to be much different. And Good and Evil, didn't your slot remove your town read on me because I changed my mind on a scum read at the end of the day and you just couldn't figure out how I would do that? Although if you want to invoke past games, you should probably remember things like this can be looked up. Hmmm...*looks at Good and Evil*...interesting that your ISO post #9, which was the 184th post of the game called me town. So, wait how long did it take again?

We had an early townread on you that was totally eroded by your Zdenek interactions D1 (should be easily verifiable by looking at the end of our ISO). By the end of D1 with the lynch, we had you down as more likely scum than not. Reading you back as town only happened after we died (and I, personally, skipped reading most of D2 because

of Regfan

it sucked).

Not really sure what it is you're trying to prove here: that we can't read you? Or that we're lying about reading you? The first is more or less patently lulzy, with evidence that we-as-town feel that we can read you and post reads of you. The second, that we're simply lying about our ability to read you because we are scum and you are a Town Force That Cannot Be Stopped, is not an argument that is helped by you pointing at Good v Evil, because, again, that's an obvious indication of us-town saying that we can read you.

Is one of the things that doesn't have you thinking of me as TammyTown the fact that I believe your hydra is scum? *pout* Both of you are two players that I actually enjoy playing with; it doesn't make me overly happy to see you both scumming up the place, but just because I enjoy playing with you doesn't mean I'm not going to call you out on being scum when I believe you are. You might have been able to get a correct town read on me in NY146 pretty quickly, but I also got a correct scum read on the other half of your head pretty quickly in that game as well.

We OMGUS as a matter of course. It's easier. Less thinking required.

Our scumread on you is more an absence of a townread, something we have been able to get on you in the past. It's not, "Tammy did X, Y, Z, that's scummy," but "Tammy did not do A, B, C that are townie." You thinking we're scum doesn't even enter into the picture, as should be obviously evidenced by our raging townreads on pretty much everyone else who's bothering to vote us.

Here's the thing MoI, I know that my efforts in proving you both as scum will probably fail. You'll probably be able to browbeat others to follow you into mislynching me before you guys ever get lynched. Hell, ask Spyrex, he'll probably join the party. But, I don't care...and I mean I don't care even less that I meant it when I said it to Spyrex the other night. And you won't even get the emotional reactions to it that Regfan said I'm known for while it happens. Because if my mislynch means that my suspicions are read genuinely to everyone else and it keeps you from coasting to endgame because for some reason everyone reads you as town when you're not, it will be worth it.

1) If you die and flip town, you should be avidly (and I stress this, *avidly*) aware that dead townies' opinions are utterly ignored.
2) So, if you're town, you should fight our suspicion of you tooth and nail, and not go gently into that dark and wintry night.
3) We're pretty goddamn sure you know the above anyways, which makes this quoted paragraph seem like posturing.
4) We know for goddamn sure you're not the type to 1v1 on a whim, making the quoted paragraph above even more posturing.

We think you posturing is scummy.

(I say "we", because other head's not here in order to say no.)

So, if you think I'm not town...vote me. What are you waiting for?

[/quote]

We're too scared to vote you because then you'll die and flip town and everyone will go, "Oh noes, Tammy was right after all, and lynch us."

You're already providing content. Want Ludi (and SpyreX) to provide content. Or die. Seriously, this game is at 40 pages, but it's mostly because of like 8 or 9 people, and I really, really, really want content from the people *not* in the prolific group.

@Tierce:

You're the reason I can't have

nice things

fun.

Oh, almost forgot to sign my post.

-Tierce

[MaguaofIllusion]

God, I put off posting in this thread for too long again.

@Tammy:

You're wrong about meta; pretty much the end of my discussion on the matter. Continue to not like your posts. Saw you tunnel the shit out of Zdenek-town in GvE, so null on that, annoying as it may be, but we continue to wish for you to die.

Nothing personal

It's totally personal.

Please to be telling MoI to come back and resume the Attitude. It's much easier to have SPITE that way.

Other head is apparently off doing family things with his family. I've tried contacting the wife to convince her that he should abandon his family and come back to this game about murders and lynches, but she's stopped taking my calls for some reason.

(As for Wyrd and Magua both claiming to be never be scum, If I remember fate was scum in Otters v Tigers etc and Magua was scum in Cylic Experiment Mafia.)

We're voting you because of blatant falsehoods like this.

I know of at least 2 games where you were [scum], so not sure of the purpose here.

Another liar. We can lynch him tomorrow.

Magua, do you still believe in this statement? After talking it over with Magna?

We have no desire to lynch Glork at all, because

we

I now think he's town.

If

we

I didn't think he's town, the statement as given would stand from my point of view, haven't asked other head. I will note that this:

Why would MoI as a hydra allow Magua to say the "if Glork ain't killed N1 he is scum"

Means you didn't read 587 like you thought you did. Don't worry. Glork made the same mistake.

La la la. Wagon on us. Wooooooo. I'm going to blame that on other head, 'cause I never get wagoned D1. Anyways. People on our wagon:

(Tammy, Glork, singersigner, Tierce, Gammagooey, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Katsuki)

Town: Glork, singersigner (useless, but don't vig), Tierce, Gammagooey
Null: Katsuki (vigbait), DDD
Scum: Tammy, SpyreX

Goddamn, that's depressing.

People we could be voting for: Toasty, though that's honestly more of a compromise lynch than anything else at this point (loldistancing), Tammy, SpyreX. Willing to sheep Duplicity on implosion. Also Nexus and Oman.

Jumping back to Toasty, the problem I have, at least, is that of all the people voting for him, I have a townread on UberNinja, but UberNinja is terrible, so that doesn't mean much, and maybe Shmugen. Everyone else on that wagon is blah, very-not-inspiring.

dramonic's just complete disengagement with the game pushes him so far beyond scummy that he can't be scum. Still wouldn't shed a tear if he got vigged, but the people at least acting like they give a crap about the game and still being completely useless would be better vig targets.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Nice of you to insinuate that I'm tunneling on MoI-town by bringing up my tunnel on Zdenek-town.

Thank you, I was quite proud of it.

If I cared more, I'd go find your posts about how I can't read you accurately and I've never seen you play scum and I'd replace our name with yours, but I don't think you'd appreciate the irony and, well, to be honest, I'm pretty lazy.

I notice that you're continuing with the commenting on things that matter little and not really engaging in the game much at all.

I also notice that you didn't answer my question concerning Spyrex. You have a scum read on him, and part of your argument against him was that he made a scummy attack on me in the beginning of the day. How can you reconcile this reasoning for why Spyrex attacking me is scummy if you have a scum read on me?

I comment on the things that I care to comment on. I've given a list of people I think is town, a list of people I think are scum, and a list of people who should be vigged but aren't worth wasting a lynch on.

I didn't, to be fair, make it into a wallpost two screens long. I could do that, but see above about me being lazy.

Re: Spyrex, you may want to step back because I'm going to whip some super advanced concepts at you. No, further back. You may want to put some goggles on, as well. Remember, safety is job one.

Now, ready? Finding SpyreX scummy is independent of finding you scummy.

Breathtakingly revolutionary, I know. Reads updated as more information came in. Were, eg, we to vig SpyreX tonight like we plan to, and he flips scum like we expect him to, then we'd adjust our read on you appropriately. Until then: no.

MoI...why am I all of a sudden town? I noticed you mentioned a change in read on me last time you posted, but no reason.

I know that you're not one into the reading, and I can sympathize, but if you do try, you'll see that I mentioned *no change* in read on you. We both think your play is terrible. Other head thinks you need to die for it, alignment independent. I think it's a towntell because I don't see scum ever saying the things that you have said because they're so terrible.

Unlike Katsuki, who is terrible and content-free, you provide content, so we don't want you vigged.

If you are disbelieving of me, feel free to ISO us and search for 'singer'.

Well, I believe that town has to read the thread to find scum. Skipping a huge wall o' reads seems unlikely to come from town.

I skip huge wall o' reads all the time. And huge walls.

In the meantime, let's

flail around

sheep Duplicity:
UNVOTE: Magister Ludi
VOTE: implosion

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoI...you'll also note that at the beginning you stated that SpyreX and I were scum after I had stated my scum reads on the two of YOU, as well as regurgitating my reasons for thinking SpryeX was scum.

Now. You've since then stated twice that you both thought I was town with reasoning (the first one is what I asked you to clarify when I said "last time" but I can see how that's be too much for you to understand if you're trying to avoid the question).

I'll lay this down as nice as I can.

Other-head thinks that your play is terrible, and a detriment to the town, regardless of your alignment. He wants you to be scum because that's convenient to him, but he doesn't actually care if you are town. He thinks someone who comes in and posts what you posted needs to die, and if they're scum it's a bonus.

I disagree. I find your terrible play to be a towntell, and don't want you to die as a result. This is perhaps some form of "You did the right thing in MoCO, so I have faith in you," and just more that I don't think that killing people who are probably town is a good idea regardless of how bad they might be.

For those following along in our personal meta crusade, it's the exact same reaction we had to Norman in Good v Evil mafia. I said that Norman's behavior and aggressiveness were huge towntells, while other head said that his play was so terrible he needed to die regardless.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So now my question is this: was the original reason you thought I was town the fact that I'm "too stupid to be scum?" Cuz that was a really backhanded way to 1. Answer my question, and 2. Discredit me for asking it.

Yes.

Have zero interest in discrediting you. Seriously, your first posts in this game did a bang-up job of discrediting you all by themselves.

[MaguaofIllusion]

You say that, but.

I just don't see the town motivation for pretending like you already explained this already and I'm stupid for not having seen it.

Because I *have* explained it, at length, starting with Duplicity, and then you're like, "I don't understand," and then I explain it again, and then I'm all =/

No matter. There are several holes in your logic/explanations that I'll be happy to point out better when I land and have a proper computer in front of me.

Save logic/explanations for other head. I don't care about any of that shit. I know, I know, you probably feel like, "Omg, I found it, the evidence, it's all so clear," but a) I know you're wrong, and so b) I just don't care.

[MaguaofIllusion]

The craplist I was referring to with a nice bonus of "loldistancing" subconscious scum bullshit. Also willing to sheep? Nah just don't buy it. When I'm under this much pressure aka largest wagon, I start to contribute-hard-get paranoid of everyone and go into hyper mode. I believe this to be a natural town reaction to being wagonned, (oh wait that means Oversouls point on toasty is valid...well meh I still think its incredibly shallow that just doin gstuff when pressured makes you town. However conversely NOT doing stuff when pressured is definitely more indicitave of scum than town)

Newsflash: We're not you. (Thank God.)

Here's my natural reaction to being wagoned: Look at wagon, see who's on it who's town-and-wrong (Glork, Tierce, Gammagooey), who's town-and-dumb (singersigner), who's scummy (Tammy, SpyreX). I do feel better now that you and Oman have joined because the less our wagon is the pure shining beacon of towniness, the happier I am. Oman can join the scum-list with 1311. Don't know how I feel about you. It's weird not seeing all caps everywhere.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Code: Select all

Magister Ludi
implosion

Also, in a stunning bedazzlement to my soul, I agree with singersigner. "I'mma park my vote on Oman" isn't helpful. Especially when you could be voting implosion.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with that...Part of me thinks that you're trying to play on the self-doubt that you know I'm constantly plagued by in reminding me of my tunnel of Zdenek-town

Pretty much spot-on exactly what I'm doing.

Seeing how you react, compared to how I expect you to react, etc.

You're right that I don't particularly care about your scumread on us. I really want to say that your scumread is laughably bad, but can't in good conscience say that with Tierce and Glork on the wagon, so meh. Instead, I'll just say that you are apparently operating under some strange theories as to what constitutes actually scummy behavior.

Hmmm...interesting. Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?

Because you keep asking stupid questions.

Seriously. "How can you think I'm scum if you think SpyreX is scum?" That's a stupid question, made even more stupid on D1 with no other information.

Or to restate: Going off relational tells on unflipped players is dumb. We can (and do) find both of you scummy. Chances of both of you actually being scum? Low. Chance that we're going to call one of you town because of that? Zero.

God. If we wanted to go after someone who was easier to attack, we'd be voting you, or Katsuki, or jumping on the Toasty wagon, or one of a hundred different things. Every single thing about your posts has been, "OH MY GAWD, I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN THINK I'M SCUM, THAT'S SO SCUMMY," and it makes responding to you such a chore.

However, this feels aggressively rude in a mean way...it's almost over the top which doesn't read genuine at all. It just lacks a certain sense of charismatic condescension.

I *am* being mean, because between both you and singersigner, I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over while getting back, "I don't understand" or "That doesn't make sense" repeatedly. Especially when you both are saying that about the same goddamn things.

My patience, very limited.

@MagIllusion- In comparing the other game where you were town, I noticed a difference in your posting quantity. In the other game, at about this stage (page 50 or so), you had three times the number of posts you do now. Also, your voting is also greatly reduced. While not an exact science, it indicates a contrast that is noticeable. Do you have an explanation for it?

Hate D1 (this is more pronounced for Large Theme D1s). I typically replace into games specifically to avoid D1; in games that I start with D1, I tend to typically not do much D1 otherwise. It's a large part of the reason I wanted to hydra with other head -- if you look at Good v Evil, for instance, I think about 15 of the posts are from me and the rest are from other head. Ratio was similar in this game until other head went on vacation, after which it's been all me.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hey, Alchemist. I see you're on a wagon by yourself. Though I approve of the wagon, you should really try being on a wagon that's not by yourself.

Hey, dramonic. I notice you're not even fucking voting. Fucking vote.

In other news, Tammy is a meanie poopoo head who has cooties.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hey,

Alchemist

UberNinja. I see you're on a wagon by yourself. Though I approve of the wagon, you should really try being on a wagon that's not by yourself.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Gammagooey:

Do you trust Regfan's read on us, yes or no?

Everything that MoI has said I have expected him to say. His fighting with Tammy comes across as needless bickering

So you expected me to needlessly bicker?

You know me very well.

And?

YEA I WENT THERE

Hey. SpyreX. Tell me, straight up: You think we'll flip town or scum. Go.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Probably town if I had to guess.

Not ROCK HARD SOLID but probably town.

Explain to me how us being lynched is a good thing, then. I'm dumb, so please use small words.

Heh...Magua...are you asking for people to place trust in Regfan's reads? Like you think other people should take them seriously? Serious question...want a serious answer.

Gammagooey, Regfan and I have played together in a really, really large number of games, so I'm curious what Gammagooey thinks of that read.

You're asking because Regfan thinks you're town. I'm aware of what Regfan thinks of you.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Blindly? Hell no. Regfan's wrong all the goddamn time. Should've seen him in the Team Mafia QT talking about the White Flag game and how sure he was Amrun was scum. Etc.

If I thought that, it'd be, "Gammagooey, you should be proxying your vote to Regfan."

Hence the question that I *actually* fucking asked, not the one that in your paranoid world you wanted me to ask: "Do you trust this read".

Jesus.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also, while I'm here, it's the close-knit meta that Regfan, Gamma and I share, which is why that's directed at Gamma solely, and not anyone else.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm here.

[MaguaofIllusion]

a) what's the most important thing that you want other people to keep in mind if you die

My townreads (you, Glork, Tierce, Oversoul, singersigner). My scumreads suck, my townreads tend to be pretty good (lulzMagnatownreadinNY145excepted).

That being said, SpyreX's play here makes me think entirely of ASOIAF, and Ludi's play has been just downright lacking for Ludi, though compared to AFFC, that might actually be an improvement.

b) do you think anyone not on your wagon is likely scum from the way they've reacted to it

Highly doubt there's more than two scum on our wagon (maybe three now that Ludi's jumped on). Have not really analyzed those off the wagon because it's 29 fucking players. Given the assumption that the scum get something good if the Day goes on too long, would wager that there's more scum off the wagon than on it.

c) what read do you have that you think most people actively disagree with and why do you have that read

MaguaofIllusion is town

The people who have (before this post) actively said, "Whatever, let's just lynch someone and end this Day" and jumped on the end of the wagon are probably town. Useless town, but town. Also, people thinking that scum are going to actively engage in a 29 player game instead of blending in and losing themselves in the crowd.

Have no specific other divisive reads: Other people think that SpyreX, Ludi, etc are scum. None of my townreads are all that controversial.

d) what is your favorite type of cookie

Peanut butter[1]

[1] Jelly time.

kk go[/quote]

[MaguaofIllusion]

Unvote

Since I'm going to pretend to be a reasonable human being and put effort into this before demanding a claim from MoI.

I will state that calling your town reads pretty good, Magua, is a little stupid considering 3/5 are considered obv/conftown by everyone in the game (with any shred of common sense).

Dig deeper. Who else is town? Who would you associate with your named scumbags?

Not to seal my own death warrant here, but I simply don't have strong scumreads, and I'm not going to speculate on relational tells of unflipped players because that's just dumb.

Most of my other townreads are on useless players (dramonic), or because I'm reading their play as to be too scummy to be scum.

I think UberNinja is more likely town than scum.

I think Toasty is more likely town than scum because I simply do not see large fast wagons materialize on scum in Large Themes. Pretty much never seen it, and it's gotten me into a lot of trouble in Minis when it does happen because I tend to fight such wagons by default, so then I get put into a bad position when they flip scum and I'm all like, "Oops."

Here, I'll just list everyone with what I think of them! Including other head's reads, but his reads are from circa post 400 or so (the 4th).

1. Alchemist (as an alt of Timeater) - Think he's town. Spammy-as-hell town but still town.

2. Teleporting Speed Hippos (AurorusVox + PeregrineV hydra) replacing AurorusVox - Null. I always read PeregrineV as scummy; I have previously relished being scum in games with him because he's such an easy mislynch every time. Have little interaction with AV. Overall null. Other head liked his early posts, and notes that if Ludi flips scum, is almost certainly town.

3. Debonair Danny DiPietro - Null. I know of games where DDD has been good by reputation, but they've never been games that I've been in with him.

4. dramonic - Vigbait. Almost certainly not scum because of his *complete* detachment from the game, but, can't take the chance. Probably vig target #1.

5. Duplicity (Regfan + Shift hydra) - Probably town. Regfan's slippery, but I've understood and agreed with most of his points so far, even if I disagree with Tammy.

6. Gammagooey - Town, almost entirely due to his early game play.

7. Glork - Town, regardless of anything else.

8. Haze - Null/vigbait.

9. Hinduragi - Null; well, maybe slightly town for the incredibly lazy vote on us, but idgaf.

10. implosion - Scum; Regfan read + I expect better. Not one of the players I'd let slide with not doing much.

11. Katsuki - Vigbait.

12. Lady Lambdadelta - Null.

13. Magister Ludi - Scum. Very much strikes me as not wanting to rock the boat, as completely distinct from his town play.

14. MaguaofIllusion (MagnaofIllusion + Magua hydra) - Obvtown.

15. Shmugen MathGirl277 - Like his posts, town.

16. Nexus - Vigbait.

17. Nikanor - Slightly scum; much like Ludi, seems to be wanting to predominantly not rock the boat. However, this isn't a meta tell for him as much as it is for Ludi. Other head has noted that if Katsuki flips scum, Nikanor's looking very scummy for his "THis isn't Kats' scum-meta" comment.

18. Oman - Null, see Nikanor. Gets a few more townpoints than that for the passive aggression towards LLD, though, in my book.

19. Oversoul - Town.

20. Quilford - Forgot he was playing.

21. GreyICE replacing Shinori D1 - Kind of forgot he was playing, too.

22. singersigner - Useless town.

23. SpyreX - Scum. Other head is very sold on this; I'm seeing it as just general flashbacks to ASOIAF, epecially how SpyreX jumped on the MoI wagon D1 and sat there for most of it. Seeing the exact same behavior here.

24. Tammy - Hate. Hate clouds vision. Still want to say scum.

25. Tierce - Town. Read entirely reversed if and only if Oversoul ever flips scum.

26. ToastyToast - Probably town. Early wagon D1 does not speak of scum.

27. UberNinja - Probably town. Aggression is a towntell, etc.

28. Wyrd (Fate + Nuwen hydra) - Hate Fate with a passion, but that's entirely out of game. Makes my reads on him weird. Tend to want him dead even if I think he might be town.

29. Zdenek - Honestly even forgot he was playing.

[MaguaofIllusion]

What is this
I don't even
He's the guy who did the useless wall of reads on useless people when he replaced in?

Explain plox.

Explain what? Seeing the Shmugen avatar doesn't make me instantly twitch with distaste before even reading the post. That's worth like 60 points at least at this point.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Blue number is related to activity. Target number is either related to time (fixed) or to the player count. Given 12-17, it could be that it is either fixed or half of the living players. I would bet on fixed.

*Incredibly* willing to bet that this is *not* the Mafia kill, but supplements it. Unsure of whether ending the Day will reset the counter; if it does reset the counter, this is a supplemental kill. If it doesn't, this may be the Mafia's only kill. Predict the first option -- the number is the counter for activity, activity should be timed around 2 weeks per Day as per other Vi games.

So, didn't want to do this, but better to be NKed by the mafia than lynched by the town.

We're a leader of one of the non-Daein regions. We had a belief pre-D1, and continue in this belief, that this puts us on the Mafia's hitlist, which is one of the reasons we had such an early townread on Gamma for his discouraging of roleclaim.

Our role is masonizer. If we target "eligible" (actual term used) people, we will be confirmed Town to them and them to us. We do not know what "eligible" means -- Vi won't elaborate -- but it is our suspicion that it is roles that originate in our own country.

[MaguaofIllusion]

The number in the VC does not correlate with a fixed time. Already looked. It is related to activity.

(And Vi has some odd thoughts about the "worth" of activity; it is not directly related to the number of posts.)

[MaguaofIllusion]

The number in the VC does not correlate with a fixed time. Already looked. It is related to activity.

(And Vi has some odd thoughts about the "worth" of activity; it is not directly related to the number of posts.)

Define activity

Provide proof

Er, "content-worthy posts"? For proof, look at Metamafia, Mafia of the Holy Ones, Mafia of the Chosen Ones, etc.

The reason I specifically point out that it's not tied to post number is because I remember in Metamafia a 24 hour or so section of time that had something insane, like 200+ posts, and Vi dropped the battery by something like 20%. I asked him why afterwards, in the Dead QT, and the response was something like, "Spamming isn't useful" or something like that. I'll try to find the exact post.

2) no role given

Look at the sample Role PM in the Vi's OP. Look at how the death flip is defined. Roles won't flip.

3) Unclear if Apostle's army is another scum team of a 3rd party of sorts.

Er.
Er.
Er.

Look at the sample Role PM in Vi's OP again, I suppose.

[MaguaofIllusion]

OS said we had one cycle left. We need to lynch someone.

AND FAST. Scum will try to obstruct IMO.

Cycle is almost undoubtedly another two weeks-ish, depending.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Reference from Metamafia Dead QT, message 237, about Vi draining the battery by a third or so despite 400 or so posts in a 24 hour period.

Pretty sure you are dead wrong about that and OS's role serves as a warning before something bad happens and scum tentacle-rape someone at cycle 18.

Cycle. Cycle. One cycle behind is probably one lynch/Nightkill. That would be a cycle.

Having it your way makes no sense in a 29 player game where it may not be physically *possible* to get someone lynched in less than 48-72 hours after the first Daykill D1.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoI: I did but I'm stupid. I didn't see anything about the apostle's army in it, only that we know of two win conditions.

<_<
>_>

Mod note: Flips as "Lucius, a wanderer from Etruria, aligned with the

Apostle's Army

".

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI: I'd like a full name claim, please. Since you're claiming that your ability will only work on 'eligible' targets, to not claim your role name leaves too much wriggle-room for fakeclaiming later.

No. If the hitlist doesn't have all of the leaders on it (which I'm assuming is at least a possibility, because I'm assuming that the scum killed Oversoul because they thought he was Ike, so the hitlist has something other than leaders on it), then that'd be obviously bad.

@Alchemist:

You have some very strange ideas of how you think scum actually act. I won't say Nikanor is town, and I won't say his play was good, but scum didn't need to vote us at that point. Look at how you reacted with "This Day has to end now" -- no reason for a scum to draw attention like that to themselves.[1]

[1] Once aware of this, it then becomes WIFOM, but that's another topic. Point is, lazy posting like that does not mean auto-scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

It's this strange thing I have of going by things that you've posted, eg, "Nikanor is lazy scum for post #1466" and thereby assuming that that is what you actually mean.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Hey this is the other head. I'm still

reading

skimming all the crap I missed. I'll try to post something in the next 24 hours. Or not. Maybe I'll just come in and throw a hissy fit so we can be "obv-Town" also.

Can we get a Ludi wagon going? Notice the wonderful "I'll post tons of numerology to prove a point that isn't important" crap he is posting. Aka non-scum hunting fluff.

VOTE: Magister Ludi

Spyrex is still scum. And Katsuki is still either derp scum or just derp.

[MaguaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: MagisterLudi

VOTE: Implosion

We both agree he is certainly on the acceptable list for lynches.

@Spyrex -

You're scum so I'm not sure exactly why you would expect us to try to Masonize us except to make sure it fails ...

@Gamma

- Don't bother. Grey isn't getting lynched today. You lost any sheeping goodwill you had with this head with your "This isn't Magua I know" crap reason for voting us.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Guess I was wrong.

Not about the lynch but the probably town.

For you meta enthusiasts look at that game and here and remember both heads were in ASOIAF and then go howww is this even related past "SpyreX voted MoI".

Yea this stinks so bad I am truly amazed.

Nope.jpg. I clearly indicated when I first called your obv-scummy play so very early on that you were scum. Your 'handwave bullshit I'm going to ignore this' attempt at defense was weak. As is your play as scum ... which you admitted to yourself.

We're a leader of one of the non-Daein regions. We had a belief pre-D1, and continue in this belief, that this puts us on the Mafia's hitlist, which is one of the reasons we had such an early townread on Gamma for his discouraging of roleclaim.

Our role is masonizer. If we target "eligible" (actual term used) people, we will be confirmed Town to them and them to us. We do not know what "eligible" means -- Vi won't elaborate -- but it is our suspicion that it is roles that originate in our own country.

I'm not sure if "Non-Daein" is gonna help him confirm it enough since thats just "not scum".

I'm debating wehter or not saying what country would help him find someone to tickle me elmo because my smellin' sense says him and I have a fair to middlin chance of bein the same sillies which would be a hilarious turn of events.

Oh how cute ... Spyrex wants to play the "Well, we could mass-claim countries to narrow the scum targets into groups making their elimination job easier" game.

While posting in a manner that shows he buys the claim. And keeps his vote parked on us. While joking about how he totally could be a valid Masonizer target for us. In typical Scum-Spyrex 'let's throw lots of nonsensical jibberish around to make us look like calm Town' style.

DIAF.

Scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

That means I should probably try to substantiate my MoI inklings at some point. Someone remind me to do it tomorrow.

Hey look ... we are now 5 days later and this never happened.

Why is that Glork?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Oh and Oman / Nik / Singer are all very acceptable rope / bullet targets for this head. I will hash it out with the other head over the next few days to see where we collectively stand on those three.

[MaguaofIllusion]

My enthusiasm for this game is approaching nil. Sorry.

Well congratulations because this head will never, ever accuse you of the Burden of Proficency again ... clearly that ship has sailed if you end up being Town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

But I swear, if there aren't fucking results, you're scummy enough to me that I don't give a shit what your claim is, you're fucking dead.

Oh Singer ... one look at your ISO says "Coasting scum not scum-hunting" so this empty threat is so darn cute*.

* - Disclaimer : your definition of cute may very. In context it means "Scum Roleblocker warming up for Day 2"

[MaguaofIllusion]

And what happened to your town read on me? Are you trying to discredit me as town, or paint me as scum? You can only do one at a time, you know. I know you're a hydra and all, but you should really make up your mind.

But I'd really like to see you sit here and claim that everyone else who's lost interest in this game is scum like you tried with Glork. Go on. Try it.

What do you mean "What happened to your Town read on me"? This head has never had a Town read on you. I called you scum right before my V/LA. The other head does. And we have haven't had a full chance to hash it out yet.

Given you keep referring to Mordor I assume you are attacking Magna not Magua. Yet you now are acting like you can't distingust between the two. So which is it ... can you distinguish between the heads (and thus can make the asssement that this head calling you scum is properly 'metaed') or can't you (and thus the 'what happened to my Town reads)?

And please link to my calling Glork scum due to lack of activity. I'd like you to do that. Otherwise this is just a complete scummy fabrication on your part.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I was totally the bees knees in the Scummies Winvitational; wasn't on the D1 mislynch; helped lynch scum D2, was killed the next night for having another scums as my target for the next day. Don't let DGB-revisionism cloud your memories.

That was other head ... this head has played with you.

[MaguaofIllusion]

'cause scum didn't kill themselves, and an SK would be off killing the obvtown, not the viable lynches.

Our masonize failed -- our target was "not eligible."

It is possible that the Wyrd kill was an SK, and that the mafia don't have a Nightkill because they kill during the Day.

Lack of reset of the counter makes me expect a kill around 30-32.

VOTE: SpyreX

[MaguaofIllusion]

It's a role that turns on when the role it's backing up dies.

What does it mean to us in this game? Nothing. We're not a backup.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Okay, good enough for me. I'm considering asking you to claim. How opposed would you be to that on a scale of 1 to 10?

0, we suppose. Boy, we're sure interested in where this is going!

Our role is masonizer. If we target "eligible" (actual term used) people, we will be confirmed Town to them and them to us. We do not know what "eligible" means -- Vi won't elaborate -- but it is our suspicion that it is roles that originate in our own country.

Haven't talked this over with other head, but I personally agree with Ludi's Toasty-is-town-based-on-implosion interaction read. Still think Alchemist is (obv)town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Magua, why do you think Alchemist is obv-town? What am I missing here?

The give-a-shit factor is high. The paranoid-ramblings factor is high. The manic-energy factor is high.

Mostly it's the give-a-shit factor.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I can now do some VCA work on Implosion in the QT … that’s coming up.

I think a MagisterLudi scum-flip would pay wonderful relational dividends at this stage. Will see what other head thinks on that.

Post 1694 also is so very vote-worthy. I’ll translate for everyone –

“Oh shit after Implosion flipped scum I can’t sell this obv-Town Alchemy tunnel anymore. Better grab a random lurker who has played like shit and suddenly find them suspicious”

--

So put them to the side and you're left with Singer, SpyreX, DDD, Ludi.

Tack on Katsuki to this list and you get a pretty damn good “Carpet-bomb it and get great net results” list. A++, would read again.

--

However I'd really like MoI to say if he actually tried me after that whole scummmhurrdurr.

Of course you would. Riddle me this Scumrex … why did you post the following in Post 1581 if you didn’t follow through with a nation claim to ‘end the fued / tunnelling’ as it were?

If you're soooo sure I'm scum wouldn't you want me to claim my nation so you could attemptit if it meshes and if it failed have real oomph to lynch me because we both know its not hapening off the back of your charming personality and persuasive skills this game.

Instead just throw it in the dark because that's hellllllaaaa useful.

Looks like classic ‘Faux Town’ posturing to me. “Hey, it’d be great to claim a Nation so you aren’t shooting in the dark”. Nevermind that it is only useful to ‘taking off the blinders’ if EVERYONE claims. Nevermind that you actually didn't do it to make it easier to not "throw it in the dark". Scumtastic.

Why don’t you claim your nation anyway Scum-rex?

--

Who is your main? I will not be revealing. I created this account specifically to experiment with a different manner of playing the game, and would like to avoid prejudgment of my actions based on previous meta. I made the decision not to reveal well in advance of receiving my role PM.

Well as long as you expect zero baseline credibility (since you are effectively a newb to everyone) and not having any Meta shields to wave at …

--

Okay, good enough for me. I'm considering asking you to claim. How opposed would you be to that on a scale of 1 to 10?

Are you going for a ‘Dana isn’t paying attention, so is Town’ thing here? Because we already claimed.

--

In my experience scum give way more of a shit than town.

In my experience your experience is pretty derp and you should spend more time listening to your elders …

[MaguaofIllusion]

My apologies for missing your claim. You have to remember that I replaced into a 60-page game, and that I may not be able to recall everything that I've read. Anyway, I'm going to have to continue this line of questioning. Did you talk with another mason last night? This might seem like a strange question, but please just humor me. I'm trying to put some things together that are confusing me.

We did not talk with anyone last Night (outside of our hydra thread, obv).

Gee, still interested in where this is going.

MaguaOfIllusion and Glork, can the both of you explain in some detail what you think of LLD for me, please.

Not answering for other head, but to give you my quick answer: LLD is null-to-slight-town, mostly given from the meta read that I expect GreyICE to be able to read her and I think GreyICE is town at the moment.

With the implosion lynch still up in the air, the opportune spots for scum to help push the quilford wagon would be the middle area, where people could still swing either way. There is no way scum would jump onto the last 3, 4, maybeee 5 votes of quilford. It was inevitable the lynch was going to go through, given the apathy in the town, and scum would know quil was town and implosion was scum, and know that jumping on the back end of the quil wagon would look bad to some people. (and it has happened here, duplicity and others)

Actually agree with Ludi here -- Day ended in a panic of "omg we're all going to die, lynch anyone," and even before the Daykill the "I'll lynch anyone who gets close" was becoming a prevailing attitude. Scum are more likely to be the people who voted Quilford when implosion was a viable wagon than those who voted Quilford at the very end.

That said, Ludi's push on dana is scumtastic, so, yeah, but I still believe the truth of what's said above.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Spryrex pretty much remains solidly scum. Anyone doubting this should look at his ISO which can be summarized as

"Derp, I'll be apathetic because it is cool, Vote player I think is Town, I can claim my Nation (despite not actually having one), MoI can't read me and I'll keep downplaying that he can"

Vig please kill him or Katsuki tonight. Thanks so kindly!

VOTE: MagisterLudi- this wagon is going places.

[MaguaofIllusion]

We're cool again bro, but you're an idiot; now find us scum.

Oh so you are cool with him claiming to not have any country of origin listed at all in his role PM?

Pray tell why exactly is that?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Vi even stated explicitly that our PMs didn't have town/scum expressed in them, and if you look at the example PM on the first page (and possibly your own PM), you should be completely fine with a role not talking about nations explicitly. Pushing on this is fuckin' sketchy.

FOS: MaguaofIllusion

DDDP is likely town.

Funny Tierce. In that same post showing the sample role PM the NAME OF THE SAMPLE ROLE'S NATION IS LISTED RIGHT IN THE ROLE PM. IT'S AS IF YOU COULD PICK IT OUT JUST BY READING.

From this point on this head is not listing to a fucking word you are saying. I'm done. Town read or not you've passed the point of no return with me bothering listen to you prattle on.

[MaguaofIllusion]

No, MoI. There is absolutely no mention of a nation in that PM related to the role itself.

So what? I never said anything about that sort of thing at all. Are you purposefully mis-reading my posts? It clear as fucking day says in the sample PM what nation that character is from. You even show I'm right in your response. So what exactly is your point? All I asked is what nation Spyrex was from. He derped it up and said "I don't have one" when low and behold he does.

Also back on topic ... Singersinger continues to provide absolutely no content aside from a pointless smilie. Yes, yes, she's again busy from her Meet. I don't care. She's managed to be completely and pointless busy the entire game and just like Scumrex hasn't scum-hunted a lick.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'd like one person from each of the following nations to come out and claim their nation name:
Begnion
Serenes
Goldoa

So Glork - why did you choose two nations who already have 1 player deceased?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Do you honestly think I'm going to answer that question?

Well with this response I'll slot you with Tierce for the moment ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

And predicitably (as in just like with Implosion) the MagisterLudi wagon stalls when it gets some momentum, and several different options suddenly present themselves (TSH, 'let's lynch a lurker').

Seems quite like a replay of yesterday where scum Implosion was pulled off the block by a 'lurker Quilford' lynch to me ..

[MaguaofIllusion]

Considering I am town and feel the same way about how people are treating me here, it's not hard for me to believe this also came from town.

That’s fantastic considering that you had no problem jumping on our wagon without hesitation when we were being DERPwagonned. Seems like a manufactured reason to me.

--

This is also a fair and valid view of the wagons and how things went down yesterday.

Absolutely 100%.

Thats a fair point, Spyre

Not really how it went down at all

Funny. Perhaps I’m skimming a different game than you two are …

At Post 1533 we have the following vote count.

Mini Vote Count (9): Sephiran
MaguaofIllusion (L-6) ~ Tammy, singersigner, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Katsuki, Oman, Wyrd, UberNinja, Shmugen
implosion (L-9) ~ Duplicity, danakillsu, ToastyToast, Nikanor, GreyICE, Hinduragi
ToastyToast (L-12) ~ Haze, Quilford, implosion,
Magister Ludi (L-13) ~ Teleporting Speed Hippos, MaguaofIllusion
Oman (L-14) ~ Lady Lambdadelta
Nikanor (L-14) ~ Alchemist
Teleporting Speed Hippos (L-14) ~ Magister Ludi
GreyICE (L-14) ~ Gammagooey

Not Voting: Nexus, dramonic, Glork, Tierce

Hey look. Implosion has 6 solid votes and my wagon is decreasing after the DERP-scum driven wagon on me. Not a sign of a Quilford vote anywhere. This was June 14 at 5:35am EDT.

Implosion picks up another vote at Post 1535. He’s got a 7-0 lead on Quilford.

Then at Post 1546 Glork says –

My enthusiasm for this game is approaching nil. Sorry.

FWIW, I'd almost rather just policy lynch a probable lurkerscum at this point.

So no vote for Implosion who certainly qualifies as lurkerscum. And more ‘woe is me my enthusiasm is bad’ junk.

Then Post 1547 Alchemist votes and suggests Quilford. Hmmmm … may need to talk with my other head about looking at our Alchemist read.

Suddenly votes come flying in from all over creation for Quilford –

Glork – Post 1549
DDD – Post 1562
Gammagooey – Post 1564
Implosion (SCUM) – Post 1565
Wyrd (TOWN) – Post 1566
Dana – Post 1573
Singer – Post 1578

And Quil claims VT in Post 1582. Anything after this is harder to read since Quil gave everybody a license to wagon.

If you want to tell me that 8 magical votes in the span of 30 posts to pass scum Implosion's 7 isn’t exactly what I just said I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to interest you in. Yeah, so both of you can take your “That’s not what went down” and shove it.

Likewise the odds that all 6 of those players who are unflipped being Town are ZERO. Of course I’d peg Singer as one. Maybe DDD at current state of affairs. And kiss any Gamma Town reads this head had previously goodbye.

Tammy in the process gets Town points for her Implosion vote in Post 1552

[MaguaofIllusion]

Yeaaa I'm not surprised by both the amount of words and the missing the point again.

Its not the implosion power wagon was derailed.

It was your shining paragon of awesomeness got derailed while it was sitting there - I think it peeked at 1 more than half OHH YEA and then BOOM speedwagon.

Hi, SpyreX.

Other head here.

Curious about what you're trying to say here.

Are you trying to say that *our* wagon got to 1 more than half (15 to lynch, half is 8) and then didn't go anywhere else because it got derailed by the Quilford wagon? Because that's false. As of Nikanor's vote in 1466 we were at L-1 (14 out of 15 to lynch). With our claim in 1475, we were at L-2 because Alchemist unvoted.

So you could you please restate what you mean here? Since I'm dumb and slow, could you actually reference votecounts/post to ensure your point is in fact correct and not misrememberings?

Thanks.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Spyrex

– Yeah, I know you are miffed that I’ve called you scum and that I’m infringing on patented SDC tactics in doing so. Life will go on.

But clearly it is you, not I, that doesn’t ‘get it’.

There is no known Universe where that list of 6 names does not contain at least 1 scum. Maybe two if Implosion's role was important enough to them.

You can’t say “Well, everyone just wanted the day to end” as to why Quilford died and not Implosion. Becacuse Implosion was a Katsuki / Oman big lump of scummy nothing and was sitting with a wagon of note as our DERPwagon disintegrated. And Quilford had zero votes as I already laid out for you. If Town wanted any lynch just to end the day shifting right over to Implosion would have been easy-peasy.

But nope. Suddenly in less than 24 hours and 30 posts Quilford’s wagon explodes like it was shot out of a cannon and he’s right past Implosion scum.

--

Oman now joins Katsuki as an always acceptable lynch.

--

I probably should make my self useful if I'm not gonna be here.

Vote: GI

UN vote is pretty bad and needs explaining.

Oh the irony of you asking someone to justify a vote. Scumtastic.

--

@Duplicity

– if we are going to lynch an non-contributing lurker let’s make it Katsuki or Oman please.

VOTE: Katsuki

Also – who do you think is most likely scum in my “Gang of 6”?

--

Uberninja looks more Town in this head’s opinion for Post 1870. The parade of “Why you using RL meta” that came right afterwards is very very funny …

[MaguaofIllusion]

Before I forget -

This head also would lynch DDD out of the Gang of Six if we got that route. He's not nearly obv-Town enough for my tastes.

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Alchemist

– why no response to me showing your “Day didn’t go down like that” post was completely wrong?

Hinduragi calling someone CapsLawking ‘fake’ in Post 1912 strikes me as not something I would expect from him. And having a Kats Town read is so I don’t know where to begin …

--

Spyrex’s Post 1925 is more fodder for the ‘lynch Spyrex’ list. Everyone should try to reconcile the following in their head –

There's far too many have to go lynches at the moment and that will, mark my words, get worse.

He at Post 1933 lists 5 scum reads.

Not Voting: dramonic, Avenging Angel, Nexus, Nikanor, singersigner, SpyreX, Tierce

Tell me … does Town who thinks there are too many good lynch choices sit moping around going emo and not vote at all? Especially given the Big Blue Number of Doom?

Nah. Even King of Apathy Glork is voting.

--

yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I really wish I counterclaimed MOI last day now.

Can anyone verify his claim because otherwise he's dead.

People should examine this very closely.

1. A subset of Town should realize that clearly Katsuki isn’t tapped into the Town side of the game. Especially in light of the whole Glork / Tierce discussion yesterday.
2. Tierce came out and said “hey, I didn’t get hooked up” today but clearly Katsuki isn’t doing anything but continuing to push mislynches. You know, what scum does. And he's doing a grade-A job at not mentioning ANYONE else in a large ass game.

So let’s feed him some rope and get rid of one of Implosion’s teammates.

--

I agree for the most part, but have also wondered if the vote was simply due to people being frustrated. The day was dragging on, and people wanted a lynch. I definitely think there were scum on the Quilford wagon. People I can see getting frustrated as town and going for a lynch would be Glork, Wyrd, Gamma. DDD is probs my best guess for scum on the Quilford wagon.

@MoI: Do you think it is scummier for someone to suggest a lynch (Alchemist) than to just hop on one?

If people were just genuinely frustrated and wanted to lynch a lurker Implosion was sitting right there with a sizeable head-start. So no, I don’t consider that the reason Quilford ate rope.

Meh on the second question – there is not inherently any more scummieness to either situation. Scum could easily suggest a counter-wagon or see one forming and jump on.

--

Consider Katsuki struck from my list of want to lynch today for now.

Explanations – you lack them.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Katsu seems to be claiming some sort of masonizer as well, or something similar enough that the word counterclaim is in there. Either one of you is lying, which we should be able to discover soon, or we have two pretty strong roles here.

No Kats is saying "I should have counter-claimed to get him lynched" not that he is one. Because if he actually was one he'd understand certain issues that make is statement incredibly wrong and scummy.

He's scum. Vote accordingly.

[MaguaofIllusion]

cuz it was bullshit and its not worth arguing about how YOU perceived something, the way you PERCEIVED the how the day went down is entirely subjective. its like teaching someone how to appreciate a film like aguirre, its not gonna happen unless that person isn't uhh well

lets just leave it at that

Why do you play Mafia? It apparently isn't about finding scum mainly.

Is it for making funny meta-posts like

'wat fluff'

which is an ironic demonstration of fluff at it's finest?

[MaguaofIllusion]

So now can we lynch Katsuki? I thought Shmugen's "I will not lynch him" was terrible ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

@Magister

– here’s my question – why are you clearing Singer as more likely Town based on Shmugen dropping a singleton vote on her. That’s possibly some pretty textbook distancing action. Voting for a partner when there is no pressure is a great way to spread the ‘love’.

@Grey

– I really don’t think you can blindly assume the Daykiller is SK given the Oversoul shot. Given the Scum wincon (eliminate those in the Plan not get a majority) it would be pretty difficult to shoe-horn in a SK with a traditional wincon. Furthermore both Day and Night Vigs can easily shoot ‘the wrong person’ if they misvig and help scum out.

--

Ok so here’s I’m hashing through Vote Counts and picking out the situations where scum are most likely to be found –

Tammy (L-8) ~ SpyreX, Magister Ludi, UberNinja, Debonair Danny DiPietro, dramonic, Oman, Glork

Initial speed wagon on Tammy. If you accept she is Town there will be at least 1 scum in this group

Spryex, ML, UN, DDD, dram, Oman, Glork

ToastyToast (L-6) ~ Haze, UberNinja, Glork, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Tierce, implosion, GreyICE, Hinduragi

Implosion’s jump onto this wagon with his first vote solidifies Toast as Town for me. This is where the wagon topped out (at least in Vote Counts). At least another scum in

UN, Glork, Spyrex, DDD, Tierce, GreyICE, Hindu

ToastyToast (L-6) ~ Haze, UberNinja, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Quilford, Gammagooey, Wyrd, implosion, Teleporting Speed Hippos

Second round of wagon on Town Toasty. Again, at least 1 scum in

UN, Spyrex, DDD, Gamma, TSH

MaguaofIllusion (L-3) ~ Tammy, singersigner, Tierce, Gammagooey, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Katsuki, Oman, Wyrd, UberNinja, Alchemist, Magister Ludi

Hello Scum -powered Masterpiece. With only Wryd flipped from here and both Implosion and Shmugen elsewhere I’d say 2 scum in

Tammy, Singer, Tierce, Gamma, Spyrex, DDD, Katsuki, Oman, UN, Alchemist, ML

ToastyToast (L-11) ~ Haze, Quilford, implosion, Shmugen

Haze is Town. Scum aren’t going to be clustering together on a Town wagon more than they already are here.

Quilford (LYNCH) ~ Alchemist, Glork, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gammagooey, implosion, Wyrd, danakillsu, singersigner, SpyreX, Tierce, Teleporting Speed Hippos, Tammy, GreyICE, Magister Ludi, Hinduragi

So with Shmugen elsehwhere I’m going to say there are at least 2 more scum on this Town wagon.

Alchemist, Glork, DDD, Gamma, Dana, Singer, Spyrex, Tierce, TSH, Tammy, GreyICE, ML, Hindu

Add in one scum for certain in my ‘Gang of Six’ –

Glork, DDD, Gamma, Dana, Singer

Now stir in a big DGB style Magi Numerology pot and presto I get the following “Hey, I’ll lynch them” Pool of Death –

Spyrex, DDD, Uberninja, Gamma, Singer, Dana

Kill it with fire and get good effect.

Think we will join Toasty-Town on DDD.

VOTE: DDD

[MaguaofIllusion]

Lulz, it's funny that you will not call out said 'nonsense / silliness' so I can obliterate your terribad logic.

I understand it sucks that your voting pattern makes you either terrible or scum. Life goes on ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

The analysis itself is pretty *yawn* and doesn't really have conclusions they hadn't reached elsewhere. Don't see much of a point to it. The "X scum here fo sho" tends to be pretty boring in a game where we don't even know the size of the scum group.

The irony of this statement when I see wonderful posts where you simply repost vote-counts with no analysis to be seen is not lost on me.

Unvote; Vote: Oman

2052 is some biiiiiiiig pile of shit. Basically ignoring all good current wagons from some gay ass VCA that, for whatever reason, EVERYONE is suddenly doing because we have 2 scumflips and 3 townflips in a fuckin 29 player game(LOL), picking a couple people, and SOLELY lynching from that list.

Oh Hindu did you confuse me for someone who cares for your opinion? I love the pointless slurs like 'gay ass' thought. Totes 5th Grade!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Maybe because I haven't yet stopped for a while and looked at the VCs in deeper analysis so I can put actual thought into it, instead of an half-assed post like yours? Oh, I forgot, you are the head that doesn't care about meta--because otherwise you'd know I post VCs for organizational purposes, later reference and helping others do VCA posts that I can analyze myself. Like--oh, I don't know--your post.

Well given that all the complaints are 'rhetoric' as opposed to object points that I could refute what exactly should I be doing? Did you miss where I pointed out just that fact to see if Spyrex would actually show his work?

Call it a half-assed post if you wish ... it clearly isn't and just handwaving it away isn't helpful either.

I do find it someone dissonant that you, who have been nagging at Alchemist for fluff posting on the basis of your complaint, is posting what is effectively also an empty post. I don't need you to make a list of all Vi's Vote Counts to do analysis - I can use the ISO feature. As can everyone else. No-one needs your help in doing their own VCA.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Look closer - I'll give a hint: Look at the final result about Haze not being scum and the "wagons" before.

Well at least you bothered to put something out there.

Do you disagree with the conclusion that Haze is Town via the logic?

If no, why should Haze appear in my pool of players I'm willing to lynch given I am trying to lynch scum?
If yes explain why.

I await your response so I can further show your first post is just "OHHHH NOOOOZ, HE'S STILL CALLINGZ ME SCUMZORS".

[MaguaofIllusion]

MOD - Please officially replace MaguaofIllusion with Magua

I'm done dealing with Prima Donna personalities who are happy to throw all the insults they wish but become 'EMO' when it is dished back at them.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So, I'm not entirely sure what y'all did to other head, but he's locked himself into the bathroom and is screaming something about cutting himself with razors because that's the only way to let all the pain out, or something.

I told him to not get blood on the rugs. We'll see what happens there.

Stttttttttttttttuff.

Has anyone ever seen a game with a day serial killer?

Metropolis: Revisited (which is doubly lulz because the smart, funny, handsome, etc head of this hydra stabbed the other head during that game)

MoI are you seeking someone specifically?

No, we are not seeking anyone specifically. We do not even know what makes someone "eligible" -- like we said, citizens of our country is just an educated guess.

I, for one, am surprised at, but totally believe, dana's claim. Our action was to try to masonize someone (not danakillsu), and the response we got back was that that person wasn't eligible.

PEdit: MoI, I don't think singer is scum. Didn't one of your heads also agree that singer is protown? Why are you wasting your time with this? Listen to your better half, please.

I had a smaller response written up for this, but then I got to singersigner's self-vote, and so, yeah.

Other head's POV is that bad-play needs to die, because if it doesn't die it loses lylo.

My POV is more that bad-play tends to be a towntell and you shouldn't run around trying to lynch people who are town, ever, no matter how bad they are, and you shouldn't run around trying to vig town when there's scummy or null people to vig.

Other head says (essentially) that I'm wrong, but there you go.

My read on singer as "too scummy to be scum" goes back to her D1 entrance -- literally calling someone town while voting them, calling people out for voting the same person she was voting, etc. Literally too scummy to be scum. Her self vote falls into the same category. It's like the exact opposite of the scum-mastermind cleverly manipulating everyone to their own ends -- it reads exactly to me like a direct emotional connection to the game, rather than a plotting or planning one.

And given that there's an obv-vig who shot implosion-scum, I do not foresee singer-scum as doing anything to make her that high of a target.

Singer lynch is bad.

Dana lynch is bad.

Nexus lynch is good.
Oman lynch is adequate, but of the two, Nexus is vastly preferred, and already has more votes to boot. Also, a majority of my townreads are on the wagon, which makes me warm/fuzzy.

Ludi I am coming around to seeing as town. I don't like a lot of his actions (I really don't like the wagons that he pushes, or the reasons that he pushes them), but I can follow his thought process and at least agree in theory on things, and that's important for me having the warm fuzzies (his read on SpyreX after the Laguz alliance stuff, his thoughts on where the scum are going to be on the Quilford wagon, etc). Also, shmugen voting and pushing Ludi -- given that scum are not in control of the Daykill, and that scum got killed by a vig, I do not believe that scum would be in a hurry to be bussing at this point in the game.

Think SpyreX is much more likely to be town given his reaction. I have my doubts (he very convincingly breadcrumbed a role in ASOIAF in his opening posts of D1), but I'm not wanting to chase it now. Other head is almost certain to disagree on this read, but he's not here right now, so.

UNVOTE: DDD
VOTE: Nexus

[MaguaofIllusion]

Claimed protective role in a game with multiple killing factions? Nexus can live for a bit, and be revisited if he's still alive 2-3 Days hence.

UNVOTE: Nexus

VOTE: Avenging Angel

Hai.

[MaguaofIllusion]

If we (as in, y'all) did, we (as in me) did not read it. Where did this occur?

[MaguaofIllusion]

That whole thing about not reading other heads' walls, that's not just for show. =P

As for why Angel over Oman, Oman already has pressure (that he's not responding to). The only escalation is claim or lynch.

Angel, on the other hand, has largely escaped notice, and could use some squeezing.

As for the 3-of-4 scum: Eh, maybe. I agree that scum tend to want to spread themselves out rather than bunch up, but such logic would've made me less likely to suspect, say, Shmugen after implosion's flip. Throwing out suspicion of Angel just based on that reasoning with nothing else is not something I'm going to do.

[MaguaofIllusion]

No, dude. The thing is--your other head is using a logic that "scum is not likely to bunch up here" on the wagon of ToastyToast, but the issue with this is that he is using that logic with the last shuddering breath of that wagon, when it had four players and all those unflipped people had jumped off. Your other head is not looking at the sequence of people voting ToastyToast (which makes Teleporting Speed Hippos less likely to be scum, as they voted ToastyToast between implosion and Shmugen), but at the last remnants of that wagon as it crumbled. He's not looking at who is voting, he is looking at those who stayed behind because they happened not to post in the meantime. It makes no sense for analysis.

Hi.

Pretend I have no idea what point it is you're trying to make, and then restate that point.

Because from what I see, the last few posts have been:

I vote Avenging Angel
You're all, "Why are you voting Avenging Angel when your other head thinks he's got to be town based on VCA?"
I'm all, "I don't believe that 3-of-4 is unlikely given you already have two scum voting right next to eachother"
You're all, "I don't trust that VCA at all"
I'm all =/

So it seems like you're, I don't know, agreeing with me? Can't tell.

@GreyICE:

Hi. I'd like a scumread who's not in the set (Katsuki, Oman, Nexus), please and thank you.
Oh, while I'm here, I'd like to know if you think Lady Lambdadelta is town or scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Guys.

Nexus claims Ike, main character thingy, ok, that's sort of null. Insinuates he's on the scum hitlist if true, but Vi would be all about picking major characters and leaving them out so that they can be fakeclaimed so whatev.

Claims a (from reactions) unexpected power for Ike: Still null, either real claim or Vi-provided fakeclaim.

Claims doctor, and specifically a doctor who can protect Tierce: Leave him the fuck alone, let him protect Tierce and keep her from dying.

I'm agreeing with Ludi again, and it's making me all =/

@Duplicity:

Nexus *did* lurk his way through ASoS, so not seeing where you said he didn't. He got wagoned for pretty much the exact same thing there as here, claimed town roleblocker, wagon fell apart, he got NK'ed by scum. At this point, that'd be the ideal ending to this.

In the meantime, Grey seems to be trying to hard against Glork and it doesn't sit right. I can understand Glork's reaction to Grey, but I can't understand Grey's reaction to Glork. LLD's reaction is so meh it's kind of painful.

Re: Oman. Oman's being replaced. Votes for him are pointless unless we're going to lynch with no claim (which we're not) or until he's replaced. In the meantime, Avenging Angel needs to provide. 8 days, literally the only content is a comment on SpyreX-meta that SpyreX disavowed. And a complaint about the speed of the game, from someone who was ostensibly following along. Both of these things make me uneasy.

@Vi:

Did Oman pick up his prod, or is he going to get replaced?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Do you two have some relationship that I'm unaware of?

[MaguaofIllusion]

If you think dana is town after that last post

You are bad at mafia.

Pretty goddamn sure that dana is town, actually.

[MaguaofIllusion]

dana is one of those people not reading the thread making remarks akin to someone who thinks THEY DONT NEED TO READ THE THREAD

HMMM WHATS A COMMON ALIGNMENT FOUND IN PEOPLE WHO FEEL THEY DONT NEED TO READ THE THREAD

Town?

In all seriousness, your earnestness: I like it. It makes my tired, jaded, cynical blood feel young again. Do go on.

However, this idea of yours that the scum will be the ones who *aren't* trying to blend in is just bleah. And, in more general, since I'm pretty sure he's town and I'm pretty sure you're town, you two fighting is rather distracting. Why not, oh, I don't know, go after Angel?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Ahem.

*buddybuddyTiercebuddy*

Re: Nexus. Nexus claims doc (effectively), says he can doc Tierce.

If Nexus lives, Tierce lives. If Tierce dies and Nexus is alive, Nexus gets lynched.

k?

k.

Revisit Nexus Day 4-5 or so if he's still alive. Until then, I don't give a shit. Nexus may be town, Nexus may be scum, I cannot tell the difference. Thought he was scum in ASoS, pushed on him to claim, then he got shot. Thought he was scum in ASOIAF, pushed on him, tracker cleared him, I moved on.

@Alchemist:

Do you think Tierce is town? Yes/no.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Really don't want to lynch a slot that's being replaced. This (sadly) includes Angel.

Do want someone lynched. Next death will be ~45-48.

UNVOTE: Avenging Angel
VOTE: Katsuki

[MaguaofIllusion]

Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatsuki

[MaguaofIllusion]

VOTE: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[MaguaofIllusion]

I do like the fact that my wagon is filled with so many suspect players and only two of the town reads in you and Glork. Kind of says something right there.

Well given your votes this game probably a wagon consisting of your non-Town reads is probably a good thing.

When did Spyrex stop being your Number 1 100% sheepable Town read?

Why not mention who are your actual scum suspects on your wagon? Just saying "everyone is suspect" when 3 Mafia and 1 likely SK are already dead looks like scum not wanting to lay down reads.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Scratch the first question as unshockingly Spyrex 'doesn't see' the reasons for the wagon on DDD.

Alchemist - there is news ... other head as devised a plan by which it should be released.

[MaguaofIllusion]

At L-1.

In a game where we have timed kills.

Doesn't claim.

Nah, die.

VOTE: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI claim your mason target before lock please

danakillsu is confirmed town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

dana will be able to confirm you then according to your claim

thx, noted

Correct.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I like the part where the derp-town players want to lynch me before even dana can show up and actually confirm that MoI isn't lying.

Furthermore, I hate you all and I have an ability that can be independently confirmed; now get the fuck off my wagon.

No. Furthermore in what universe do you think we would fabricate Masonizing dana? Seriously that's a stupid theory beyond compare. People aren't going to unvote you because "I'm confirmable" just on your word given how scummy your vote history had been.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Lulz. DDD ... claiming everyone else is Pants-on-Head when your vote pattern has been horrible and you keep floating stupid theories (lulz MoI fake-claimed the confirmation on Dana) is ironic.

Continue to not do the only think that MIGHT keep you from getting the rope today. It is amusing.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Regardless of which head I'm speaking with you're allegedly a good scumhunter; and Magua read me right in Last Will and MoI read me right sometime in the near past; I kind of have to consider you pants on the head when instead of actually trying to read me you go "lol votecounts".

It's hardly just Lulz Vote-counts. I've been calling you scum for awhile now. I guess by your standards I should have been calling you Pants on Head when you voted for us so it's all good I suppose ...

Why don't you give me one reason based on Dayplay I SHOULDN'T think you are scum? I'd like to see from your perspective what in your Dayplay you think is Obv-Town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI, did you know you were fakehammering?

I think it should be obvious that other head knew exactly what he was doing. Actually other head, dana and I had a discussion about how doing so was probably a bad move given it faked out Vi ...

There's the fact that I don't do remotely unconventional things as scum that don't involve claiming, so I wouldn't have played follow SpyreX on day one as scum. On day two if I was scum I would've given absolutely no fucks about his country claim, and then today I only throw AtEs like this as town, I've tried to fake it as scum in the past but it's never been close to capturing my town irritation.

Sheeping Spyrex is hardly unconvential for you - you sheeping is pretty standard DDD behavior and is easy to replicate as scum. The only reason I gave it so much attention Day 1 is you chose Spyrex who is either scum or just terrible and your reasoning made no sense.

Giving 'two-fucks' about a country claim is an easily faked stance so that hardly is compelling or unconvential.

AtE - nope I don't give two fucks about you trying to sell that as a Town tell.

Anything else? Otherwise vote stays pending claim.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Just an FYI, it takes more stones to step back and admit you might be wrong than to buckle down and insist on being wrong

Funny you say this because are still softly floating the concept that our slot could be anything but Town today (we are not Town reads on your wagon and despite you saying "We need confirmation" the MoI faked his Masonize was clearly pointing in that direction) is indication that you haven't yourself done anything of the sort.

You are at L-1. If you have a claim worth making do it now before Glork power-hammers you. Fair warning.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Is he acting within his meta?

Stop running to the meta well. It's pointless and a waste of time to keep asking when meta is one of the weakest reasons ever to excuse scummy behavior. It bit you in the ass in FF6 Mafia. I thought you would have learned.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So who is going to step up? Who is going to show some courage and back off this miserable lynch instead of getting sucked into the void of irrationally wrong confidence? There has to be someone who is voting for me already who actually has a fucking spine.

Your play has been scummy and your votes crappy. 3 scum and a likely Serial Killer are already down.

There is no visable reason not to lynch you based on these facts. If you want to AtE instead of proactively taking the action that might clear you go ahead and hang.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Can someone with good flavor knowledge clue me on on Nexus's flip? I'm guessing that Imperial Prince Julius is not from Danien proper. Is this correct?

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm thinking about it

Just like you thought that Mist Beauty couldn't possible fake-hammer and AtE as scum, right?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Then let's explore that space; give me a fighting chance Tim. I'm getting railroaded simply because of laziness, arrogance, and the fact that I won't play conventionally here when I know it's not in the town's best interest for me to do so

Well laziness (your sheeping as opposed to being willing to scum-hunt on your own) and arrogance (every post today) are apt reasons, aside from your general scummy play, that you are getting wagonned.

Here's a hint - given lots of people feel you are scum no-one really cares whether you think not claiming is 'best for Town'. Town is in a pretty darn good spot right now (and if my set-up theory is correct could be in a much better spot than is generally known). We are hardly in a position where things are dire.

Glork

-

========[]
[]========

[MaguaofIllusion]

If I'm ever scum I'm going to play like a fucking troll because you guys are really forgiving of it

You always play like a troll so this is hardly a stretch.

Your unvote is terrible ... I'll be mocking you endlessly for it when DDD is eventually found to be scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

If Tierce isn't "discovered" by tomorrow, I'm considering lynching her.

What? Lynch the "obv-Town" Tierce? How could you even consider that? [/sarcasm].

Here's the question - how do you know she hasn't been found already?

Also - why are you not voting DDD?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also

@Tierce

- thanks for the link.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Some shout 'Blood for the Blood God' so we can appreciate the pure irony of Spryex White-Knighting against a lynch given the game-state.

So Benmage / Rhinox - both your slots were lurking sacks for crap. You had best both get it in gear if you are Town. If you are Mafia feel free to sit right there doing nothing and get Vigged / Lynched.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Vote: Tammy

Did she ever claim?

Why would she have claimed?

[MaguaofIllusion]

She had a lot of heat D1

So what? DDD has a lot of heat right now yet you unvote like a sheep when he specifically flaunts doing it.

Tammy never got to L-1 like he did.

I don't see any sort of Pro-Town thought process gonig on from you here ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

My "processes" are probably above your head, no offense

Lulz ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

Given that your processes are "be stubborn and wrong" I'm thinking Tim's actually right on this one.

Show one read on scum you have been correct about. Just one. With a link showing the post you made said read in. I'll be waiting because so far you've been as wrong as anyone could be IMO.

Nice buddying though - did you tired of hugging Spyrex's nutsack and wanted a new one to fondle?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Could we stop the dick measuring contest and actually root out and lynch scum?

I'm voting for DDD-scum. Still waiting for an compelling arguement he isn't a good lynch.

[MaguaofIllusion]

You had me until here. I thought everything you were saying seemed to come from a town mindset and then this. Why not look at why the Tammy wagon started. Because someone didn't like my personality and others sheeped on.

You look like you're flailing instead of trying to find scum, which is sad. I thought you were town.

And yet there is no vote for DDD here ....

Also I have to chuckle at DDD trying to take an excerpt from Pyche's MD thread (which was based on Mini Normal games) and trying to use it as ammunition here. Quite scummy ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

Rexflame: Tammy

^_^'

join us hindu

Complete failure of UberNinja style lame reaction test complete ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

And I was so motivated to read/participate in the game again...

Seriously, why wasn't the shitstorm that is Tammy lynched on D1. Who got her back in here? She was better off not posting... >_>

If for some reason DDD isn't the lynch today I'd totally support a wagon on this piece of scummy uselessness ....

[MaguaofIllusion]

I assume he's also waiting for the claim like me.

This quote encapsulates all that is wrong with this thread in the last 10 pages.

DDD is put at L-1 and refuses to claim. People see this as a Town tell.

Tammy isn't anywhere near L-1 but mutlitple players continue to say "CLAIM CLAIM CLAIM".

Then we have Gamma's "I just want a name claim" which is terribad given Day 1 the notion of name-claiming has been proven to be Pro-Scum.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Force the issue, votes on Tammy please

None of this "waiting to hammer" nonsense

Nope. Continue to be scummy!

[MaguaofIllusion]

Seriously you guys we have a chance to force the issue and manhandle tammy into using her power (or not, in which case she's scum. Inb4 she says she misread her role PM). Using the power doesn't confirm her as town either, but it goes a long way in terms of goodwill and transparency.

Yeah. Let's make a wagon simply to make her use her claimed limited Power. And then say "Well, it doesn't clear you at all anyway" but this way it gets likely wasted in a way that doesn't benefit Town ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

@MoI

Its not like she claimed this will be its last use.
Its not like the town is in a horrible position and cant afford extravagances like this.
Its not like she could have just lied off the cuff.
Its not like like having a limited use power usable during the day and night isn't extremely odd and should thus be prone to scrutiny.
Its not like she claimed the power will hurt anyone else.
Its not like verifying the effect of such power wont be a good thing in terms for transparency down the line.
etc.

Well let's see ...

The first isn't a reason to use it.
If you believed the second you would not have let DDD go "I'm Confirmable, don't vote me" without actually claiming.
The third is just pointless rhetoric. So what if it is possible ... show me why it is likely and furthermore if you are wrong why it is Pro-Town.
The fourth doesn't justify wasting the power just because 'you want it'
The fifth is pointless. That doesn't justify possibly wasting a Pro-Town use just to satisfy you.
The sixth can also be verified down the line also.

None of these are compelling reasons at all why anyone should follow along. Go sit in the corner ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm to the point where I would consider lynching UberNinja for the latest string of posts which have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with scum-hunting and for not paying any attention to the actual content relevant posts being made ...

DDD is still scummy as fuck and I hate every single one of you has enabled him to escape scrutiny with this terrible Tammy discussion.

@Tammy

- Vote DDD if you already haven't ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

DEAR MOI: ddd's softclaim is literally a thousand times better than the horseshit you didn't want to lynch yesterday. it is worth keeping him alive for a single godamn night to confirm it.

Dear Gamma -

A claim saying "I'm confirmable" and nothing else means absolutely fucking nothing. Sorry, it doesn't.

[MaguaofIllusion]

So Tierce ... why do you have not problems with all the people yelling "USE IT USE YOUR POWER NOW"?

@Tammy -

did you seriously claim your name?

[MaguaofIllusion]

I did. Getting told to replace out has made this game the last thing I want to do. Sorry, if it goes against my wincon, but I'd rather die than make him look for yet another replacement.

The point is not that you want to die. The point is that if you are Town you are giving scum more information that they fucking didn't need. Here's a hint - if you are on the list you die. If you aren't on the list you make it easier for scum to find those on the list. It's not rocket science and that you did it as part of some tantrum and didn't bother to think through the implications means if you flip Town when the game is complete there need to be consequences ...

[MaguaofIllusion]

Glork please vote DDD ....

[MaguaofIllusion]

So anyone wanting to sell DDD's postion on Nexus should ISO DDD, do a Control F for 'Nexus' and notice that the first time Nexus is even mentioned is in response to Glork saying "Nexus claim". As shown below DDD then votes Oman, gives him the same pass that others are being castegated for, and only actually votes Nexus after TSH counter-claims.

Please explain to me in small words how this makes DDD not scum because I am not getting it.

Please don't hammer until I've gotten people to answer my request for nation members.

Nexus, you're at L-2 by my count. Full claim, please.

If it hasn't happened by now why do you think it will happen any time soon?

I'm fairly certain there are people who haven't seen the request yet.

I seriously doubt that is the reason; furthermore if you believe that to be the case why haven't you dragged forward your request on each page you instead of reposting it the once as far as I can remember.

Not sure where I stand on Nexus' claim; would like to see the evidence others have asked for and more input from Nexus before deciding one way or another.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oman

Don't like the lack of follow-up from Nexus but I'd rather leave that decision to tomorrow and make scum deal with it tonight. I'm fine with lynching Oman even if he is getting replaced because basically nothing can redeem the slot at this point.

could someone who is town please give me a list of nething important thats happened and also whos obvtown and whos scum? we all know im not reading 98 pages lmao.

I'm town.
Tierce and Glork are awkward claim town.
SpyreX is derpy mistake town.
Toasty and TSH are VCA town.

MoI claimed masonizer that only works on certain people (perhaps people from his country?) and had no luck on N1 with SpyreX
Nexus claimed doctor that only works on people from Crimea and claimed to protect MoI last night, despite the fact that MoI didn't claim to be from Crimea and Tierce did claim to be from Crimea.

Most everyone else could use a bullet as far as I'm concerned.

Being prodded means I can't really wait any longer for Pere's input on this, but based on what he said in the QT I think we're good to go...

We do not believe Nexus' BG claim

Why?
Because

we

have a BG role which works a little differently from his.
It is a small difference, but it matters enough to make us think that his claim is fake.
In fact, if it were HUGELY different, I might be more inclined to believe it was real.

Now, I am willing to clarify this difference. I don't know about Pere.
But I won't go into any more detail unnecessarily.
~AV

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nexus

Good enough for me.

[MaguaofIllusion]

16 pages in 12 hours? Y'all can kiss

my ass

our asses.

Fixed that for

me

us.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm doing this to keep other head from having the joy of voting SpyreX:

VOTE: SpyreX

[MaguaofIllusion]

Do you think both UberNinja and LLD are lying about their non-results on you?