Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD knows the way to a mans heart though

I'm shamelessly using you for your scumfinding talents so you better make my investment worthwhile.

[Duplicity]

The implosion-scum flip solidified a lot of my town reads. Also as Shift said I'm fairly confident in a lot of scum being on the Quilford wagon to save what seemed to be the inevitable lynch on Implosion and while I normally dislike VCA I think it'll be highly telling in this specific case (Also no MoI, this doesn't mean that I want you spamming up all my future games asking me to comment on your VCA analysis). I've coloured in green my strong town reads and flipped confirmed town and scum. If you want a strong town read explained just ask though most of the reasons behind them I went through yesterday.

Spoiler: VC at day end with reads attached

Quilford

(LYNCH) ~

Alchemist, Glork

, Debonair Danny DiPietro,

Gammagooey

,

implosion

,

Wyrd

,

danakillsu

, singersigner, SpyreX,

Tierce

, Teleporting Speed Hippos,

Tammy

, GreyICE, Magister Ludi, Hinduragi

implosion (L-10)

~

Duplicity, ToastyToast,

Nikanor,

MaguaofIllusion

, Lady Lambdadelta

MaguaofIllusion

(L-12) ~ Katsuki, Oman, UberNinja

ToastyToast

(L-13) ~ Haze,

Quilford

Not Voting: Nexus, dramonic, Shmugen

So that leaves the scum on the wagon to include some of DDD, Singer, SpyreX, TSH, GI, Ludi, Hind. Of those I have weaker town reads on DDD, Singer, TSH and Hind though I'll need to assign time to re-read through them to make sure I'm not missing anything there. It means that there's very likely scum inside of Ludi, SpyreX and GreyICE though and that's probably the best place to lynch today. Of the wagon includes Nikanor, LLD, Kats, Oman, UN, Nexus, Dram and Shmugen. Of those I have weaker town reads on Nikanor, UN and Dram which means scum is probably inside of LLD (I remembered the timing of her implosion vote coming across as bad), Kats, Oman, Nexus and Shmugen. I'd probably prefer a lynch of LLD/Nexus in the off wagon players before anyone else there.

Vote: Ludi

(PS: See Magua, I'm not always wrong!)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Duplicity, how exactly am I off the wagon when I had been advertising a pseudo vote on Implosion for the later half of the day?

Also, I voted Implosion when Quil was put at L-1 because:

1) Quil was a town read of mine
2) Hindu had promised to hammer
3) If Implosion was close to death too, I thought Hindu might wait before auto hammering.

So what exactly was wron with my timing, given these incentives Duplicity?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, why the fuck does Nikanor have to be town?

Vote: UberNinja

Can we get this done today, please?

[Duplicity]

I think it's fairly obvious that by 'off the wagon' I mean not on the Quilford lynch. The fact that you haven't seemed to grasp that makes me think you haven't read anything in my post other than your name again. And the timing issue I had with your vote on Implosion is exactly what you state, it was when Quilford was put at L1 and when it was literally impossible for anything to happen other than him to get lynched. And no, at that time the number of votes on both lynches were not even close, one was L-1 the other was L-11 so the fact that you wait for the difference in votes to be that extreme screams as a distancing vote.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Im pretty sure the Wyrd kill was made by someone who probably thought they were a PR because of their lurking when said person knew they weren't in their scumteam. Little did they know Fate lurks on hydras because he doesnt check them often and he forgets about them and would still be active as a PR. That slot was pretty much guaranteed not to produce much until he remembered to keep logging into it/got interested in this game.

This also needs some attention from people. SpyreX?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think it's fairly obvious that by 'off the wagon' I mean not on the Quilford lynch. The fact that you haven't seemed to grasp that makes me think you haven't read anything in my post other than your name again. And the timing issue I had with your vote on Implosion is exactly what you state, it was when Quilford was put at L1 and when it was literally impossible for anything to happen other than him to get lynched. And no, at that time the number of votes on both lynches were not even close, one was L-1 the other was L-11 so the fact that you wait for the difference in votes to be that extreme screams as a distancing vote.

Your post was confusing as I thought you were analyzing the Implosion wagon.

Also, I thought the Implosion wagon was bigger than that...

------------

I want your thoughts on Hindu, Duplicity.

[Duplicity]

Ludi, can you explain for me two things 1) Why you believed Implosion was a bad lynch in Post 1440 and 2) Why you stated that you'd ISO him in Post 1518 and never followed through on it. Also while you're at it post a summary of your reads for me.

LLD, again I don't see how you could have been confused about what my post was about unless you skimmed it especially since the vote count I was talking about was in the spoiler and looking at the other names mentioned as 'off' and 'on' wagon would have given away exactly what I was talking about. Regarding Hind though I remember Shift having a scum-read on him near game start and about that time in the game I didn't disagree with him however a lot of little things make me think he's town, for instance Post 834 is not something I see coming from scum and I like his strong town read on Alchemist.

[Vi]

Mini Vote Count (11):

Rolf
Magister Ludi (L-10) ~ Tierce,

Alchemist,

Debonair Danny DiPietro, Duplicity
SpyreX (L-11) ~ MaguaofIllusion, GreyICE
Alchemist (L-12) ~

Magister Ludi,

UberNinja
Oman (L-12) ~ Magister Ludi
Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-12) ~ Alchemist
UberNinja (L-12) ~ Lady Lambdadelta

ToastyToast (L-13) ~

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting:

Alchemist,

Teleporting Speed Hippos,

Debonair Danny DiPietro,

dramonic,

Duplicity,

Gammagooey, Glork, Avenging Angel, Hinduragi, Katsuki,

Lady Lambdadelta, Magister Ludi, MaguaofIllusion,

Shmugen, Nexus, Nikanor, Oman,

GreyICE,

singersigner, SpyreX, Tammy,

Tierce,

ToastyToast,

UberNinja,

danakillsu

--With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

25

[GreyICE]

Slimeee

Was that GI vote really under the premise that MoI actually targetted me after all his hulaballo

Ayup, mate. Maybe if I didn't have a town read on him and I actually had a town read on you i might ignore it, but you're a good vote anyway.

Regfan, what's the points of similarity between the quilford and moi wagons? I'm on a phone, so.

[Duplicity]

The similaries are: Tammy, Singer, Tierce, Gamma, SpyreX, DDD, Wyrd, Alchemist, Ludi.

Tammy, Tierce, Alchemist, Gamma are obvtown, Wyrd is confirmed town. So put them to the side and you're left with Singer, SpyreX, DDD, Ludi.

[SpyreX]

I'm shamelessly using you for your scumfinding talents so you better make my investment worthwhile.

Thats a junk bond here though.

However I'd really like MoI to say if he actually tried me after that whole scummmhurrdurr.

[Alchemist]

Its a bit early for VCA and you all know it.

Where has Glorkikins gone off to?

DDD

, who's scum?

[Alchemist]

I'm shamelessly using you for your scumfinding talents so you better make my investment worthwhile.

Thats a junk bond here though.

However I'd really like MoI to say if he actually tried me after that whole scummmhurrdurr.

Also;

When when has Spyre scumhunted?

Why is Spyre not being aggressive at all?

Why has Spyre basically posting nothing at all this entire game?

Is it because he's scum? oh spyre you were one of my earlier scumreads oh noes you aren't scum are you ;-;

[MaguaofIllusion]

I can now do some VCA work on Implosion in the QT … that’s coming up.

I think a MagisterLudi scum-flip would pay wonderful relational dividends at this stage. Will see what other head thinks on that.

Post 1694 also is so very vote-worthy. I’ll translate for everyone –

“Oh shit after Implosion flipped scum I can’t sell this obv-Town Alchemy tunnel anymore. Better grab a random lurker who has played like shit and suddenly find them suspicious”

--

So put them to the side and you're left with Singer, SpyreX, DDD, Ludi.

Tack on Katsuki to this list and you get a pretty damn good “Carpet-bomb it and get great net results” list. A++, would read again.

--

However I'd really like MoI to say if he actually tried me after that whole scummmhurrdurr.

Of course you would. Riddle me this Scumrex … why did you post the following in Post 1581 if you didn’t follow through with a nation claim to ‘end the fued / tunnelling’ as it were?

If you're soooo sure I'm scum wouldn't you want me to claim my nation so you could attemptit if it meshes and if it failed have real oomph to lynch me because we both know its not hapening off the back of your charming personality and persuasive skills this game.

Instead just throw it in the dark because that's hellllllaaaa useful.

Looks like classic ‘Faux Town’ posturing to me. “Hey, it’d be great to claim a Nation so you aren’t shooting in the dark”. Nevermind that it is only useful to ‘taking off the blinders’ if EVERYONE claims. Nevermind that you actually didn't do it to make it easier to not "throw it in the dark". Scumtastic.

Why don’t you claim your nation anyway Scum-rex?

--

Who is your main? I will not be revealing. I created this account specifically to experiment with a different manner of playing the game, and would like to avoid prejudgment of my actions based on previous meta. I made the decision not to reveal well in advance of receiving my role PM.

Well as long as you expect zero baseline credibility (since you are effectively a newb to everyone) and not having any Meta shields to wave at …

--

Okay, good enough for me. I'm considering asking you to claim. How opposed would you be to that on a scale of 1 to 10?

Are you going for a ‘Dana isn’t paying attention, so is Town’ thing here? Because we already claimed.

--

In my experience scum give way more of a shit than town.

In my experience your experience is pretty derp and you should spend more time listening to your elders …

[SpyreX]

The Laguz Alliance Army

See, considering I dont -have- a nation persay I kinda assumed it would work.

But I dont care even a little bit at this point.

And the fact you dont see how if even a person gives a nation for you to be useful (well, at least with night actions because day play is lolololol) its a step in the right direction.

When when has Spyre scumhunted?

Why is Spyre not being aggressive at all?

Why has Spyre basically posting nothing at all this entire game?

OHhhhhh man ohh man

I can see characterizing a lot of things a lot of ways but this?

Good lord man.

ILL DONE HELP MAKE YOU A TRUTHSAYER THOUGH

[Duplicity]

MaguaOfIllusion and Glork, can the both of you explain in some detail what you think of LLD for me, please.

[danakillsu]

Okay, good enough for me. I'm considering asking you to claim. How opposed would you be to that on a scale of 1 to 10?

0, we suppose. Boy, we're sure interested in where this is going!

Our role is masonizer. If we target "eligible" (actual term used) people, we will be confirmed Town to them and them to us. We do not know what "eligible" means -- Vi won't elaborate -- but it is our suspicion that it is roles that originate in our own country.

Haven't talked this over with other head, but I personally agree with Ludi's Toasty-is-town-based-on-implosion interaction read. Still think Alchemist is (obv)town.

My apologies for missing your claim. You have to remember that I replaced into a 60-page game, and that I may not be able to recall everything that I've read. Anyway, I'm going to have to continue this line of questioning. Did you talk with another mason last night? This might seem like a strange question, but please just humor me. I'm trying to put some things together that are confusing me.

[Magister Ludi]

The implosion-scum flip solidified a lot of my town reads. Also as Shift said I'm fairly confident in a lot of scum being on the Quilford wagon to save what seemed to be the inevitable lynch on Implosion and while I normally dislike VCA I think it'll be highly telling in this specific case (Also no MoI, this doesn't mean that I want you spamming up all my future games asking me to comment on your VCA analysis). I've coloured in green my strong town reads and flipped confirmed town and scum. If you want a strong town read explained just ask though most of the reasons behind them I went through yesterday.

(PS: See Magua, I'm not always wrong!)

Actually, this is where I think you are looking and judging the quilford wagon incorrectly. There are likely to be scum on the quilford wagon, but I do not believe at all that they would come at the end. I'm saying this because I believe it, and because I'm town and know what I was thinking. Why do I say this? Here,

At some point in the day, it looked like a tossup between the growing implosion wagon and this quilford flash wagon, probably around Vi's 1533 with this

implosion (L-9) ~ Duplicity, danakillsu, MaguaofIllusion, ToastyToast, Nikanor, GreyICE, Hinduragi

and

Quilford (L-4) ~ Alchemist, Glork, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gammagooey, implosion, Wyrd, danakillsu, singersigner, SpyreX, Tierce, Teleporting Speed Hippos
implosion (L-8) ~ Duplicity, danakillsu, ToastyToast, Nikanor, GreyICE, Hinduragi, MaguaofIllusion, Tammy

With the implosion lynch still up in the air, the opportune spots for scum to help push the quilford wagon would be the middle area, where people could still swing either way. There is no way scum would jump onto the last 3, 4, maybeee 5 votes of quilford. It was inevitable the lynch was going to go through, given the apathy in the town, and scum would know quil was town and implosion was scum, and know that jumping on the back end of the quil wagon would look bad to some people. (and it has happened here, duplicity and others)

The scum are going to be in the center of the quilford wagon, or maybe jumped on the implosion wagon that went nowhere, considering that's an easy way to get brownie points, or would probably be absent all together. Scum have perfect information, and no way do they let themselves look bad. I'm saying this because I can garner a few town reads from the end of the quil wagon, reproduced below:

Quilford (LYNCH) ~ Alchemist, Glork, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gammagooey,

implosion

,

Wyrd

, danakillsu, singersigner, SpyreX, Tierce, Teleporting Speed Hippos, Tammy,

GreyICE, Magister Ludi, Hinduragi

And because there was no way I would jump on an inevitable lynch on town as scum while I had a scum buddy as the counterwagon. All competent scum would know this.

Consequently, greyice and Hinduragi are town reads. If the scum come anywhere, it's in the middle/early. We already see implosion, but if there are other scum, they're probably in the dana-singer-spyrex 7-8-9 slots that helped push the wagon over the edge.

As for this implosion wagon;

implosion (L-8) ~ Duplicity, danakillsu,

ToastyToast,

Nikanor,

GreyICE, Hinduragi, MaguaofIllusion,

Tammy

We again find dana in a probable bussing situation, if we assume at least some scum out of 8 players voting implosion. I haven't really looked at dana before, but I think it holds weight.

Fos: Dana

[Duplicity]

Ludi, I'd like my questions that I asked you earlier answered. Also I'd agree that scum are more likely in the middle-ish of the Quilford wagon then at the end but at the same time your 'scum would never join the end of a wagon that is an inevitable lynch when scums the counterwagon!' is something I strongly disagree with; with half the playerlist needed for a lynch scum need to either hope that almost the entire town jump on a mslynch or take serious part in it themselves. Had no more votes occurred lets say from L-4 onwards there's the chance the wagon can stall or be disbanded which isn't something scum want at all.

PS: Dana replaced Zdenek and thus is town or at least not somewhere worth exploring today.

[Alchemist]

So Spyre instead of addressing my points you're just gonna express righteous dismay at the way I characterized how you've played this game (which was totally fair) and semi-claim?

Uhh okay?

Vote: Magister Ludi

Ludi just scumming it up in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4129139

[Magister Ludi]

I missed your questions, will get to them.

I think you need to go reread the building quil wagon yesterday. At a certain point, the wagon seemed inevitable, especially after Quil claimed VT and name. I'm not saying scum would never join the end of a wagon in general, I'm saying in this case given the circumstances it is very unlikely to have happened, every game is different. And we already know of one scum on the wagon, there's probably another one or two that helped it along.

I've seen all town on mislynches. In walrus mafia, where I was mafia, the day one lynch was only done by town, and was quite glorious. You speak in too many absolutes, and I'm not sure why.

[MaguaofIllusion]

My apologies for missing your claim. You have to remember that I replaced into a 60-page game, and that I may not be able to recall everything that I've read. Anyway, I'm going to have to continue this line of questioning. Did you talk with another mason last night? This might seem like a strange question, but please just humor me. I'm trying to put some things together that are confusing me.

We did not talk with anyone last Night (outside of our hydra thread, obv).

Gee, still interested in where this is going.

MaguaOfIllusion and Glork, can the both of you explain in some detail what you think of LLD for me, please.

Not answering for other head, but to give you my quick answer: LLD is null-to-slight-town, mostly given from the meta read that I expect GreyICE to be able to read her and I think GreyICE is town at the moment.

With the implosion lynch still up in the air, the opportune spots for scum to help push the quilford wagon would be the middle area, where people could still swing either way. There is no way scum would jump onto the last 3, 4, maybeee 5 votes of quilford. It was inevitable the lynch was going to go through, given the apathy in the town, and scum would know quil was town and implosion was scum, and know that jumping on the back end of the quil wagon would look bad to some people. (and it has happened here, duplicity and others)

Actually agree with Ludi here -- Day ended in a panic of "omg we're all going to die, lynch anyone," and even before the Daykill the "I'll lynch anyone who gets close" was becoming a prevailing attitude. Scum are more likely to be the people who voted Quilford when implosion was a viable wagon than those who voted Quilford at the very end.

That said, Ludi's push on dana is scumtastic, so, yeah, but I still believe the truth of what's said above.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: Magister Ludi

Ludi just scumming it up in viewtopic.php?p=4129139#p4129139

How? Why? What about it means I am scum? Which part of my conjecture do you disagree with?

I think my reasons are all quite solid.

[SpyreX]

What am I going to address?

That the idea that I haven't been looking for scum is bonkers?
That this whole I haven't said anything is amazing considering how much stupid, stupid heat I have got FOR saying things?
That aggression died the minute this turned into a slag and even if it didn't what the ass does it have to do with anything?

That, overall, that post was almost as much a fart in the wind as MoI comparing this game to to a game where after he was dead he railed (rightly so) that DGB and I had to be scum because we pushed through his lynch?

Or should I just go ahead and mention the inevitability of my lynch in the near future and the simple pure fact that because its based on raw stupid my desire to even pretend to help in a useful manner is gone?

What would you like?